True Christians don't believe in the trinity

[OlderWaterBrother]

True Christians don't believe in the trinity.

I'm just going to make this statement and let me know if you believe it or not and why.

[OlderWaterBrother]

I truly thought that more Trinitarians would want to defend the trinity but I guess not.

Anyway here’s a thought; think about what Jesus said; that by their fruitage you would know them and that some would call him lord and yet he would say get away from me you workers of lawlessness.

Trinitarians – The crusades
Trinitarians – The inquisition
Trinitarians – Nazi Germany and genocide

Are there examples like these for non-trinitarians?

[xexon]

My argument would be there are no true Christians to ask. There never has been.



x

[Nikalaus]

My argument would be there are no true Christians to ask. There never has been.



x... Good point. I believe you and I are starting to see the world in the same light X.

Do you believe that the St-Essa recorded in the history books in Tibet was Jesus, X?

[OlderWaterBrother]

My argument would be there are no true Christians to ask. There never has been.
x
Would that include Jesus himself and his faithful disciples or are saying that you don't believe that they ever existed?

[xexon]

Just because you have faithful disciples doesn't mean your message is going to be understood by them.

Many masters have come and gone, leaving no suitable heir to their spiritual power. Those who attempt to carry the message forward after the master's death often do so out of devotion rather than ability.

Jesus' disciples were no different. They wrote down their master's teachings but were unable to realize many of the spiritual truths themselves. If you can't bring this spiritual power from within yourself, you have to rely on pure academics.

This is what modern Christianity has been built upon, not the spiritual power of the master himself. Therefore, there are no true Christians. The spiritual lineage is a false one, and the fruit it produces, corrupted.

I don't blame people for following this faith. It has a lot of good wisdom. But it does not have the spiritual power behind it that a master would bring with him in the flesh. There isn't even a comparison.

But if you have nothing better, it tastes pretty good to a weary soul seeking shelter from the storm.

And thats how most all religions operate. A safe harbor for battered souls where they can find strength in numbers. They'll think about the mysteries of life later, but right now, they just want the pain in their lives to go away.



x

[xexon]

... Good point. I believe you and I are starting to see the world in the same light X.

Do you believe that the St-Essa recorded in the history books in Tibet was Jesus, X?


Very high probability. What young man in Jesus' day could have resisted going to exotic lands on a trade caravan? There were many running between the middle and near east. You could be gone for years on some of them.

Jesus fits more into the idea of a yogi or swami more than he does a rabbi.

What would the end product be if a young jewish kid spent time with some of the masters of the east?

Would someone like Jesus not come walking down the road?


x

[OlderWaterBrother]

Thanx xexon, very well thought out and nicely stated and I appreciate that.
Although we’re getting a little of topic, I’d like to ask you one more question.
The Bible says: All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work. And I was wondering if the Bible is as it says it is the Word of God, wouldn’t God, no matter who did the actual writing, be able to make sure what he wanted said was said in it?

[xexon]

It goes back to the ability to carry the message, or not.

The true word of God is not a book. It's what comes from the mouths of people who have become God conscious. The bible is a book which tells of such people.

Most people, despite the great love they may have for their God, are simple not grown up enough spiritually to connect directly with the Godhead. Faith is all they have. And that faith is often composed of second hand beliefs that belong to other people.

Faith has no ability to self correct like direct perception does, so once a corrupted faith is started, it fruits and muliplies just like a virus. "Looks" like the real deal, but like a piece of carnival jewelry turns green with time.

The bible and other holy books may have come from the mouths of actual saints in the beginning, but because there are so few people who can approach that level themselves yet, they are at the mercy of other people's opinions about it. There is no living master to set the path straight.

This leaves the door open to all manner of abuse. Power over others is a great temptation, and one of the most vulnerable groups of people are the religious.

To be united in faith is not such a good thing.

To be united with the ability to see is much better. This is the intention of true saints like Jesus. To heal your blindness so you can see for yourself.

No faith required.





x

[wa bluska wica]

the last christian died on the cross

--friedrich nietzsche

[neodude1212]

Very high probability. What young man in Jesus' day could have resisted going to exotic lands on a trade caravan? There were many running between the middle and near east. You could be gone for years on some of them.

Jesus fits more into the idea of a yogi or swami more than he does a rabbi.

What would the end product be if a young jewish kid spent time with some of the masters of the east?

Would someone like Jesus not come walking down the road?


x
can you tell us more about this St. Essa person?

[Nikalaus]

Do a lil research man... it's a name recorded in Eastern HISTORY BOOKS, this young child full of wisdom came from the middle East preaching unbelievable cermons far beyond his years they called him St-Essa. The Eastern history books say St-Essa spent most of his adult life in Tibet and then returned back to the Middle East to do whut he said was complete his "destiny"...

Ugh... I used to criticize people like X and Relayer in the past I'm soo sorry guys.

That's exactly what "they" want ... "DIVIDE AND CONQUER"

I have most definitly seen the light... now the question is what do i do with it... this living a "perfect" life is hard shit yet in theory the power is all ours to do so...

:O :O :O

ONE GOD, ONE ENERGY, ONE ... LOVE BABY.

ITS ALL ABOUT THE LOVE.

[Nikalaus]

FOR THE RECORD... I believe in the Teachings of Jesus.

I believe there is a creative force of all

GOD

I believe he created a son NOT JESUS.

"The Christ Consciousness"

And by that I believe it's the energy that bonds all of space and time and the entier universe. Just so happens Jesus became @ one with that energy OR was born that way. i'm guessing a bit of both.

And the Holy Spirit, I believe it's definitly real and we can thank god for it too i believe its a sound we can't hear that runs on same frequency as our thoughts. kinda like the whistle for dogs... we can't hear but it drives them mental! ;)

So yah... there is my concept of the Trinity...

I would still like to consider myself a "Christian" but i guess "main stream " or true christians would consider me a heretic at this point woudnt they?

[OlderWaterBrother]

Thanx once again xexon, I appreciate time and thought that you took in answering.
But I have been remiss, I forgot we are in the Sanctuary forum and not the more general Christianity forum and as Skip said: I've decided to establish this sanctuary for Christians only, seeing as, by your statements, it doesn’t seem you‘re Christians, you guys probably should not be posting here.

In any case I allowed us to get way off thread. I started this tread I hoping to talk with some Trinitarians about the trinity and I’m still hoping for that discussion.

Talk with you later,
OWB

[xexon]

Non Christian input is tolerated as long as it is respectful here.

I'll let you get back to the task at hand. :)


x

[Hryhorii]

I am interested OlderWater, are you a Oneness Pentecostal? I am interested in your nontrinitarian church.

[OlderWaterBrother]

Hi Hryhorii,
At this moment, I personally have no church, I wasn’t taught the trinity growing up. I thought at the time that if all roads lead to God, I should take the road that I was most familiar with which would be Christianity, although as I came to find out I wasn’t real familiar with it. I thought a good place to start was to read the Bible through front to back and then look for a religion. That way if someone said the Bible says this I could agree or say I don’t remember reading that can you show me. I liked the Bible but soon found that many people that said they were Christians said or taught things that just weren’t in the Bible.

In doing all this, I noticed that Christianity as a whole has a very bad reputation. One of the things that I noticed was that the trinity is never mentioned in the Bible as such, yet, as I noted earlier in this tread some, some of the worst things that have taken place in history were done by those who were Trinitarians. This and other things have let me to believe that True Christians are not Trinitarians.

Sorry, I hope this answers your question, I was going off a little.
OWB

[Okiefreak]

can you tell us more about this St. Essa person?Also spelled Issa, which is the Muslim name for Jesus. This story surfaced in 1897 in a book by a Russian physician, Nicholas Notovitch, who claimed to have visited the Hemis monastery in Tibet and obtained a traslation of an ancient manuscript documenting Issa's wonderful adolescent years in Asia. The account was denounced as a hoax by three competent scholars: Max Mueller, J. Archibold Douglas, and Edgar Goodpeed, who provided solid rebuttals. Douglas even visited the monastery and obtained a signed statement from the head monk that Notovich was a fake. But the story lives on in New Age lore, and is the subject of a popular New Age documentary film by True Believers Janet and Richard Brock, The Lost Years of Jesus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Notovitch
http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/JesusNAM.html

[Bradley1107]

Very interesting stuff

[Hryhorii]

Hi Hryhorii,
At this moment, I personally have no church, I wasn’t taught the trinity growing up. I thought at the time that if all roads lead to God, I should take the road that I was most familiar with which would be Christianity, although as I came to find out I wasn’t real familiar with it. I thought a good place to start was to read the Bible through front to back and then look for a religion. That way if someone said the Bible says this I could agree or say I don’t remember reading that can you show me. I liked the Bible but soon found that many people that said they were Christians said or taught things that just weren’t in the Bible.

In doing all this, I noticed that Christianity as a whole has a very bad reputation. One of the things that I noticed was that the trinity is never mentioned in the Bible as such, yet, as I noted earlier in this tread some, some of the worst things that have taken place in history were done by those who were Trinitarians. This and other things have let me to believe that True Christians are not Trinitarians.

Sorry, I hope this answers your question, I was going off a little.
OWB
That is a pretty interesting story OWB. I am interested in what else you found that is not in the bible that Christians believe (rapture and that sort). I guess the direction I am going I am willing to accept Tradition (with a capital 'T'). Also, I think it would be hard to make claims such as yours about trinitarians and the crusades but about non-trinitarians because there are so many different groups that all do not follow one unified leader. There is also not as man historical examples because non-trinitarianism had been quite small until fairly recently (and is still quite small).

[Piney]

The Trinity concept pre dates Christianiaty. Jews don't belive in a trinity.


The Trinity may have been incorporated into Christian thought from Celtic beliefs. Perhaps when St. Paul visited the Galatians.

In Catholic legend, St. Patrick is shown using the shamrock to teach the Celtics about The Trinity, in truth, it was the Celts who brought in the concept to the Christians.

The Trinity carved below is a neolithic device. This is Newgrange, Ireland.


http://www.hipgallery.com/photopost2/data/872/Passage_entrance2.jpg

[wa bluska wica]

clearly yahweh is the kami of the israelites

i guess jesus is the kami of the christians

what is mary the kami of?

[wa bluska wica]

i am sorry

i forget the names

what is the holy ghost [not mary] the kami of?

[Okiefreak]

i am sorry

i forget the names

what is the holy ghost [not mary] the kami of?Have you lost your kamis?

[Bradley1107]

Plenty of things have been added to the church for a plethora of reasons. Mostly political and monetary reasons. Take the notion of pergatory...Simply thought up by the catholic church when they needed a little extra cash. They told people that loved ones souls were held captive because of their sins on earth. If their relatives paid the church a certain amount, the deceased's soul would then rise to heaven. Talk about sacrilig.

[Hryhorii]

Plenty of things have been added to the church for a plethora of reasons. Mostly political and monetary reasons. Take the notion of pergatory...Simply thought up by the catholic church when they needed a little extra cash. They told people that loved ones souls were held captive because of their sins on earth. If their relatives paid the church a certain amount, the deceased's soul would then rise to heaven. Talk about sacrilig.
Source it.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/120121.htm Scroll down to chapter 13. Augustine talks about a firey punishment for sins of the faithful way before paid indulgences.

While it is not a full fleshed out idea of "purgatory", it shows that the idea of a temporal state after death and before final judgement existed in the church from early on.

[Bradley1107]

Ah the patron saint of brewers. Was not aware that he talked about purgatory, what about a millenia before the idea of paid indulgences?? Very interesting indeed. Im not sure I would have reached the same conclusions he did interpreting the scripture, so I might still consider this as something having been added after the fact so to speak, by the church. But point well taken. I will try to do some research and post when I have the time.

[Hryhorii]

Hi Hryhorii,
At this moment, I personally have no church, I wasn’t taught the trinity growing up. I thought at the time that if all roads lead to God, I should take the road that I was most familiar with which would be Christianity, although as I came to find out I wasn’t real familiar with it. I thought a good place to start was to read the Bible through front to back and then look for a religion. That way if someone said the Bible says this I could agree or say I don’t remember reading that can you show me. I liked the Bible but soon found that many people that said they were Christians said or taught things that just weren’t in the Bible.

In doing all this, I noticed that Christianity as a whole has a very bad reputation. One of the things that I noticed was that the trinity is never mentioned in the Bible as such, yet, as I noted earlier in this tread some, some of the worst things that have taken place in history were done by those who were Trinitarians. This and other things have let me to believe that True Christians are not Trinitarians.

Sorry, I hope this answers your question, I was going off a little.
OWB

Well, one of the reasons I asked was out of curiosity, and another was for method of explaining the trinity (or the formulation of the doctrine) as I see it. If you accept that Jesus was divine/God, the Father is God (as well as the holy spirit), then an enigma arises. How can god be both the Father and the Son. There are three solutions. One is that Jesus and the Father are the same thing, different modes (if you will) of the same essence. Well then that implies that god can change. sometimes God is the father, sometimes he is the son. It also raises the question of how the son can pray to the father (he would be praying to himself).

The second option is that Jesus and the father and the HS are three parts of one thing. But then it implies that God can seperate, and become a partial being. Jesus ceases to be fully divine.

The third option would be to unite them one being, one substance. Coexistant, coeternal. Distinct yet together.

[OlderWaterBrother]

Hi Hryhorii,
While the Bible does call Jesus divine or a god, it doesn’t say that he is Almighty God.

Which to me would seem to indicate that Jesus although having god like qualities (which seems to be confirmed by the Bible saying he is the image of God) is not Almighty God but what Jesus himself said he was, the son of God (which seems to be confirmed by the Bible calling Jesus the first born of all creation).

This seems to indicate a Father and Son relationship, where the Father created the son and they are two separate beings just like in any Father Son relationship. Thus many of the problems brought up by the trinity are solved.

How can God be both the Father and the Son?
They aren’t

The implication that God can change.
He doesn’t

The question of how the son can pray to the father (he would be praying to himself).
He isn’t

[Hryhorii]

Hi Hryhorii,
While the Bible does call Jesus divine or a god, it doesn’t say that he is Almighty God.

Which to me would seem to indicate that Jesus although having god like qualities (which seems to be confirmed by the Bible saying he is the image of God) is not Almighty God but what Jesus himself said he was, the son of God (which seems to be confirmed by the Bible calling Jesus the first born of all creation).

This seems to indicate a Father and Son relationship, where the Father created the son and they are two separate beings just like in any Father Son relationship. Thus many of the problems brought up by the trinity are solved.

How can God be both the Father and the Son?
They aren’t

The implication that God can change.
He doesn’t

The question of how the son can pray to the father (he would be praying to himself).
He isn’t
The first chapter of johns gospel identifies Jesus as the Word though. The divine Logos that is with God from the beginning, and was God. It seems to me that this would set up Jesus as the almighty God.

So by your account, is Jesus divine that became man, or man that became divine, or neither? I am still trying to wrap my head around your ideas of what Jesus' nature is. Also, the Holy spirit, or is that pretty straight forward making the Holy Spirit equal to the almighty god but not distinct from the Father.

[neodude1212]

Also spelled Issa, which is the Muslim name for Jesus. This story surfaced in 1897 in a book by a Russian physician, Nicholas Notovitch, who claimed to have visited the Hemis monastery in Tibet and obtained a traslation of an ancient manuscript documenting Issa's wonderful adolescent years in Asia. The account was denounced as a hoax by three competent scholars: Max Mueller, J. Archibold Douglas, and Edgar Goodpeed, who provided solid rebuttals. Douglas even visited the monastery and obtained a signed statement from the head monk that Notovich was a fake. But the story lives on in New Age lore, and is the subject of a popular New Age documentary film by True Believers Janet and Richard Brock, The Lost Years of Jesus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Notovitch
http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/JesusNAM.html
so is it real or a hoax?

[OlderWaterBrother]

Hi Hryhorii,
The first chapter of johns gospel identifies Jesus as the Word though. The divine Logos that is with God from the beginning, and was God. It seems to me that this would set up Jesus as the almighty God.

You would not be alone in thinking so.
But the debate rages on between Greek scholars and Bible translators as to what the absence of a definite article means in the translation of John 1:1. Should it be translated as, and was God, or, and was a god, or, and was divine. So the jury is still out on whether this scripture shows that Jesus was Almighty God or not. I personally wouldn’t use it one way or another.

So by your account, is Jesus divine that became man, or man that became divine, or neither? I am still trying to wrap my head around your ideas of what Jesus' nature is. Also, the Holy spirit, or is that pretty straight forward making the Holy Spirit equal to the almighty god but not distinct from the Father.

The Bible does not go into great detail about the nature of spirit beings or the transference of Jesus into human existence. The Bible does seem to indicate that Jesus was the first of God’s creations making Jesus, God’s first born son and that all other things were created by Jesus under God’s authority. When the way had been prepared and the time was right, God transferred his son’s life into a women thus allowing Jesus to be a human and when he died he was dead for three days before God resurrected him back to heavenly life.

As for the holy spirit it appears to be what God uses to do things it’s like the hand of God.

[Okiefreak]

so is it real or a hoax?My hunch is hoax.

[Hryhorii]

You would not be alone in thinking so.
But the debate rages on between Greek scholars and Bible translators as to what the absence of a definite article means in the translation of John 1:1. Should it be translated as, and was God, or, and was a god, or, and was divine. So the jury is still out on whether this scripture shows that Jesus was Almighty God or not. I personally wouldn’t use it one way or another.

The Bible does not go into great detail about the nature of spirit beings or the transference of Jesus into human existence. The Bible does seem to indicate that Jesus was the first of God’s creations making Jesus, God’s first born son and that all other things were created by Jesus under God’s authority. When the way had been prepared and the time was right, God transferred his son’s life into a women thus allowing Jesus to be a human and when he died he was dead for three days before God resurrected him back to heavenly life.

As for the holy spirit it appears to be what God uses to do things it’s like the hand of God.
I don't think either of us is going to be swayed in any sort of direction, but I do enjoy this discourse.

I think for me the most convincing part of john 1 is the part where it talks about the pre-existence of the Divine Logos (In the beginning...). Before all of creation, the son existed so in that sense Jesus is not created. Can you find the passage that refers to Jesus as first among all of creation?

[Nikalaus]

This is gettin deep... I Like. I Like it alot. :)

[OlderWaterBrother]

Hi Hryhorii,
I don't think either of us is going to be swayed in any sort of direction, but I do enjoy this discourse.
This is something I posted in another thread:
“Some people see debating as a battle to be won, I think that the winner in a debate is the one that comes out of the discussion with a better understanding of both sides.”

Sure, I admit that I would like to sway you over but I would be happy to have a good discussion!

I think for me the most convincing part of john 1 is the part where it talks about the pre-existence of the Divine Logos (In the beginning...). Before all of creation, the son existed so in that sense Jesus is not created. Can you find the passage that refers to Jesus as first among all of creation?
The one I was talking about was Rev. 3:14 there it uses the phrase; the beginning of the creation of God
Also Col. 1:15 uses the phrase; first born of all creation
John 3:16 uses the phrase; the only begotten
And some believe that in Pr. 8:22 in the Phrase; brought me forth as the first of his works, that the “me” refers to Jesus

PS I'm not trying to take them out of context, I figured that you would look them up and read them for yourself in context, so I just mentioned the salient phrases.

[Nikalaus]

Oi... I have so many questions to ponder after that post But they are all off Topic.

For the record ... I have no Studies in Christology. But i believe that The Christ Consciousness that was Jesus is the glue of all time and space. The energy that keeps the entire universe in perfect balance. If you look on this planet at all around you you'll notice the only thing that binds living things is LOVE. Hence my belief that the soul of the universe incarnated in the person of Jesus was ABSOLUTE LOVE in it's Purest Form. If that is the first thing created in this entire universe I can live with that.

But Of course who am I to conclude that The Christ Consciousness is the fabric of all space and time... I could be wrong

[Hryhorii]

I think for me the most convincing part of john 1 is the part where it talks about the pre-existence of the Divine Logos (In the beginning...). Before all of creation, the son existed so in that sense Jesus is not created. Can you find the passage that refers to Jesus as first among all of creation?
The one I was talking about was Rev. 3:14 there it uses the phrase; the beginning of the creation of God
Also Col. 1:15 uses the phrase; first born of all creation
John 3:16 uses the phrase; the only begotten
And some believe that in Pr. 8:22 in the Phrase; brought me forth as the first of his works, that the “me” refers to Jesus

PS I'm not trying to take them out of context, I figured that you would look them up and read them for yourself in context, so I just mentioned the salient phrases.I have yet to look at them all in context (it is late), but I will tackle John 3:16 right now. Trinitarians do not deny that Jesus is begotten from the Father, we deny that Jesus was "created" (The phrase I often see used in the Nicene Creed which outlines the Trinitarian doctrine is "not made" which addressed Arianism)

[OlderWaterBrother]

Jews don't belive in a trinity.
The Israelites were God’s people for thousands of years and all that time they were monotheistic in contrast to the majority of the nations around them who where polytheistic and had trinities in their worship.

Did God leave his people in the dark about his nature for thousands of years? That is hard to believe. If it were true then when Jesus came would he not have been more direct in teaching a people with such a history about the trinity?

Was Jesus not sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel? If that is so then wouldn’t letting them know that they that they had been mistaken about the nature of God for thousands of years be high on Jesus list of teachings for the Israelites. Jesus did not shy away from controversial issues. So one would expect maybe a whole speech on the matter but the Bible is amazingly mute on the subject. In fact it seems that the Bible is so enigmatic on the subject that it takes about 200 years for it to be made church doctrine.

Hardly what one would expect of a major church doctrine that was needed to try to change what the Israelites believed for thousands of years!

[Okiefreak]

The Israelites were God’s people for thousands of years and all that time they were monotheistic in contrast to the majority of the nations around them who where polytheistic and had trinities in their worship.

Did God leave his people in the dark about his nature for thousands of years? That is hard to believe. If it were true then when Jesus came would he not have been more direct in teaching a people with such a history about the trinity?

Was Jesus not sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel? If that is so then wouldn’t letting them know that they that they had been mistaken about the nature of God for thousands of years be high on Jesus list of teachings for the Israelites. Jesus did not shy away from controversial issues. So one would expect maybe a whole speech on the matter but the Bible is amazingly mute on the subject. In fact it seems that the Bible is so enigmatic on the subject that it takes about 200 years for it to be made church doctrine.

Hardly what one would expect of a major church doctrine that was needed to try to change what the Israelites believed for thousands of years!My guess is that two influences were at work: the influence of Greek pagan thought, especially neoplatonism (the Logos); and the need to resolve disputes among the faithful over the nature of their departed leader. Was Jesus just another Prophet like Elijah, or was he the Messiah, or possibly something even better?

[heru]

the true christian trinity is found in ancient egypt - amun ra ptah is the oldest trinity of egypt and all other trinitys are related - amun is the hidden aspect of god=the father , ra is jesus christ ,ptah is horus who is the reincarnation of ra and creator of the universe - the myth of osiris is about set (set is lucifer) and horus who is the 2nd coming of christ - the devil decieved the whole world and so did the jews with their false teachings

[heru]

the true christian trinity is found in ancient egypt - amun ra ptah is the oldest trinity of egypt and all other trinitys are related - amun is the hidden aspect of god=the father , ra is jesus christ ,ptah is horus who is the reincarnation of ra and creator of the universe - the myth of osiris is about set (set is lucifer) and horus who is the 2nd coming of christ - the devil decieved the whole world and so did the jews with their false teachings

[OlderWaterBrother]

If you had posted your comment one more time you would have had a trinity of posts!

[Hryhorii]

Haha, I would more likely use the term trifecta, haha.

[OlderWaterBrother]

Good point! :lol:

[Hryhorii]

1I think for me the most convincing part of john 1 is the part where it talks about the pre-existence of the Divine Logos (In the beginning...). Before all of creation, the son existed so in that sense Jesus is not created. Can you find the passage that refers to Jesus as first among all of creation?
The one I was talking about was Rev. 3:14 there it uses the phrase; the beginning of the creation of God
Also Col. 1:15 uses the phrase; first born of all creation
John 3:16 uses the phrase; the only begotten
And some believe that in Pr. 8:22 in the Phrase; brought me forth as the first of his works, that the “me” refers to Jesus
Rev 3:14 -> In the NASV, there is a footnote on the word "begining" that also means it could be "origin" or "source" So in that regard it would mean that Jesus is the creator.

Col 1:15 -> I think here what I find most important is the wording "image of the invisible God". Here I think it clearly sets Jesus, who is the son, as the incarnation of the almighty/invisible god.

Pr 8:22 -> Ok, here I think yo finally got me on one. If the saying is refering to the Son then yes, there may be a "creative" nature to the wording, but there is no proof that the wisdom here is Jesus...

[sweetdeviant]

True Christians don't believe in the trinity.

I'm just going to make this statement and let me know if you believe it or not and why.
i haven't read this entire thread, just two pages. but i stopped reading so i could comment freshly without clouding my mind.

frankly i never understood the trinity. i go along with the concept at worship but i don't really get it even though it's been explained to me over and over, i still don't get it. i've prayed about understanding it, but god doesn't really open my eyes to it. father, son, holy ghost??????? is it important? is it a manmade concept?

i'm so greatful i read this question. i'm so greatful someone else questions the trinity .... or do you?

[Hryhorii]

The trinity is not supposed to be understood logically. I do not simply accept it as truth because I am told to though. I have thought about it, and I think that to me it is the answer that makes the most sense with the assumptions that Jesus Christ is the Almighty God made human, etc...

[It Has Been Said]

I dont believe in the trinity..the word trinity is not in the bible and would not make sense for Jesus to pray to his father while he was here on earth if he himself was God.

[sweetdeviant]

The trinity is not supposed to be understood logically.
hmmmm, this may be why i can't wrap my head around the concept.

[OlderWaterBrother]

i haven't read this entire thread, just two pages. but i stopped reading so i could comment freshly without clouding my mind.

frankly i never understood the trinity. i go along with the concept at worship but i don't really get it even though it's been explained to me over and over, i still don't get it. i've prayed about understanding it, but god doesn't really open my eyes to it. father, son, holy ghost??????? is it important? is it a manmade concept?

i'm so greatful i read this question. i'm so greatful someone else questions the trinity .... or do you?I don't question the trinity, because, it is a manmade concept, so why bother questioning it.

Only man could come up with something so complicated and say it came from God.

Any concept that God wants us to know, God will simplify till even a babe can understand, thus the saying; out of the mouths of babes.

A good rule of thumb, anytime someone tries to tell you that something is a mystery of God that we just can't understand, stop and ask yourself, if someone told you that it was God's will that you kill yourself and you asked them why and they said it is a mystery of god that we just can't understand, would you kill yourself? Personally, I would say; “Lucy, you've got some ‘splaining to do!”

In other words the Bible seems pretty harmonious and easy to understand unless you say it teaches the trinity at which point a lot of what the Bible says doesn’t make sense anymore and becomes a mystery of God that we just can't understand.

So since the trinity is originally a pagan teaching and adding that concept to the Bible makes the Bible a mystery of God that we just can't understand, I would follow the rule that the Bible lays out:
"the things which the nations sacrifice they sacrifice to demons, and not to God; and I do not want YOU to become sharers with the demons. YOU cannot be drinking the cup of GOD and the cup of demons; YOU cannot be partaking of “the table of GOD” and the table of demons."
And leave the concept of the trinity out of my worship.

[Hryhorii]

I dont believe in the trinity..the word trinity is not in the bible and would not make sense for Jesus to pray to his father while he was here on earth if he himself was God.
Well the Christiology is that The son emptied himself and became human flesh (while still retaining his divinity, hence the Transfiguration). So as "centrist" Christian teaching goes Jesus is 100% god and 100% man. My understanding of how the incarnation worked is that Jesus "surpressed" I guess you could say the divinity on Earth so he could be a better example of how to life your life. Jesus was tempted (I think people often forget this fact) and could very well have given into sin and probably thought he had at times--but the fact is Jesus remained sinless through obedience to God the Father and in the ressurection shed his humanity to take the form of God the Son. One being one essence with God the Father in the unity of the Holy Spirit. One God forever.