"Good" and "Evil"

[SlydeHippie]

Now, we all know that Good and Evil don't REALLY exist.

Reality knows no "Good" and "Evil", everything just is. It is our mind that divides different actions into what's "Good" and what's "Evil" according to the consequences of that action. Also, according to the person and the experiences they went through, and thus their perspective on things.

So, I've been doing some critical thinking. Obviously, what each person believs that person holds these values dear, and "true".
However, this thinking that "Good" and "Evil" don't exist, what if someone shot your mom in the face. Does this mean it wasn't wrong?

So now I'm thinking, do "Good" and "Evil" exist? And who's to say which is which?

Sorry, I couldn't articulate myself very well on this one. It's awful hard to get it out there.

Peace and Love, John.

[stinkfoot]

Now, we all know that Good and Evil don't REALLY exist.

Reality knows no "Good" and "Evil", everything just is. It is our mind that divides different actions into what's "Good" and what's "Evil" according to the consequences of that action. Also, according to the person and the experiences they went through, and thus their perspective on things.

So, I've been doing some critical thinking. Obviously, what each person believs that person holds these values dear, and "true".
However, this thinking that "Good" and "Evil" don't exist, what if someone shot your mom in the face. Does this mean it wasn't wrong?

So now I'm thinking, do "Good" and "Evil" exist? And who's to say which is which?

Sorry, I couldn't articulate myself very well on this one. It's auitw hard to get it out there.

Peace and Love, John.
You pretty much answered your own question.

Good and evil are concepts that we add to what exists simply as information. They are interpretive values that most will attach to something that bothers them to rationalize their reaction to it. One of the keys to happiness as I see it is to not let things in and give them power over your sense of happiness and well being.

Good and evil are only as real as each individual allows them to be.

[xexon]

There is clean water, and there is dirty water.

You have the freedom to choose which, but you are also aware of the consequences of making the wrong choice.

If you're not, then life will teach you.



x

[Okiefreak]

Now, we all know that Good and Evil don't REALLY exist.

Reality knows no "Good" and "Evil", everything just is. It is our mind that divides different actions into what's "Good" and what's "Evil" according to the consequences of that action. Also, according to the person and the experiences they went through, and thus their perspective on things..I'm not sure I agree. I think Reality includes Good and Evil, even though they are ideals or abstractions. Beauty, Truth, Justice, Democracy, Freedom, etc., are ideals, abstractions, concepts invented by humans. But they are real and important. People die for them. Our mind determines what we regard as good and evil, but our mind or perception in a sense determines all reality. Sometimes we get it wrong, and people differ in their perceptions, but I think there's a core of things we do agree on, rooted in the commonalities of the human condition. So if someone shot your Mother in the face, it wouldn't be just you who'd think it was evil.


Peace and Love, John.[/QUOTE]

[xexon]

True. When you assign value to something, you accept the fabrication of reality in that comes from doing so.


x

[SlydeHippie]

I think you are missing my point Okie.

You stated the things which you find to be good, and among those I'm pretty sure you can say "Equality" correct? Which is what I believe in, but the Muslim and even Christian traditions, state that Men are superior to Women. WE might find that wrong, but THEY might find what we do wrong.

So would it be arrogant for us to say we're the ones who are right because we have discovered Truth, or vice versa?

@ Xexon
You have the freedom to choose which, but you are also aware of the consequences of making the wrong choice.

But what is wrong to one might not necessarily be wrong to another?

Stinkfoot

Great response bro, thanks for the insight.

Namaste, John

[hippie_chick666]

This is how I understand this issue. Take a man who electrocutes other people and we call it murder and label this act as evil. Now when that man is electrocuted by someone appointed by an agency, it is called capital punishment and labeled as justice. What is the difference between these two situations? Really not much, except the executioner had authority to kill the "murderer" by an agency w/ "power" while the "murderer" did it on his own.

The ideas of "good" and "evil" are only relative, so yes, they do have some purpose. The problem arises when one decides their relative ideas are absolute and force their ideals on others who may have a different view. If your mother was shot in the face by a stranger, labeling this senseless act as "evil" may be the only way to deal w/ this. However, if that shooter was then executed by firing squad, it seems that his death is justified b/c "it is good to punish evil." We often forget that the shooter also had a family too.

All in all, our values are based on culture and societal norms, so ideas of "good and evil" vary from place to place and are relative but not absolute.

Peace and love

[stinkfoot]

Wouldn't a system of cultural norms and policies that seeks to predetermine for everyone living withing it the standards of good and bad (evil) be by its very nature evil?

Good and evil are concepts that we add to what exists simply as information. They are interpretive values that most will attach to something that bothers them to rationalize their reaction to it. One of the keys to happiness as I see it is to not let things in and give them power over your sense of happiness and well being.

Good and evil are only as real as each individual allows them to be.

When a system seeks to take the power of judgment away from individuals equipped with the ability to determine that value themselves then its aim can only be to effect conformity of though to its singular standard of what's right and wrong. The inevitability of achieving this is to create a population less able to think for itself and dependent on the outside authority to make value judgments.

By replacing an ability with a dependence the power structure can induce an inability to self govern and perpetuate an increasing need for authority over smaller and smaller details of daily existence. People become reluctant to even think for themselves because much of what they see as common sense becomes branded as illegal (a power structure's jargon for evil) and just saying the wrong thing can subject them to all manner of punitive response.

If this isn't enough of a downer- suppose the power structure suddenly collapses. The population whose addiction to outside morals, rules, and judgment is left without its beacon of shining righteousness and must fend for itself. Its predecessor, which had the ability to judge and self govern, would have likely remained more or less intact, but with its reliance on a strong authority to set rules and norms that do not conform to common sense the group that has existed under more authoritative rule would fall into chaos.

Just because good and evil are intangibles that we assign to outside information does not make them unimportant judgments for us to make. It's also very important that we look to those in charge and see to it that they use judgment that best reflects common sense. Instead of government force feeding us with its agenda driven standards of right and wrong we need to see to it that the government conforms to our standards and we absolutely need to hold it accountable for when it fails to do this.

[Okiefreak]

[QUOTE=SlydeHippie]misfire.

[Okiefreak]

.I guess my point was that values and ideals are an important part of human "Reality". Individual values may differ, but there are some commonalities based on human nature and needs. Equality is one that was shaped by historical changes in society, as we became less aristocratic and more democratic. But it's not just something "I" find to be good. It's a shared value in our society and other industrial democracies. Equality is rooted in the principle that each person has an equal right to respect and concern. The Nazis didn't share it, the Klan doesn't share it, but I don't feel the least bit "arrogant" in saying they're wrong, just as I don't feel arrogant in saying that slavery is wrong--it's treating people as things or objects, in violation of basic principles of empathy, utility, and fairness. I and many others have not just a preference but a personal stake in acceptance of a values system that includes the principle of equality. It was important to defeat Hitler. He was evil, and was promoting an evil ideology as good.

You mention the "traditions" in Muslim societies and even some Christian communities that men are superior to women. While "traditionalists" can find passages here and there to prop up their sexist beliefs, the underlying principles of both the Qur'an and the New Testament undercut these arguments and suggest that they are mistaken. Thomas Jefferson, who said that people are "created equal" owned slaves and had sex with one of them. I think it can easily be shown that he was violating his own principles. Once articulated, our basic ideals of good and evil can be used to challenge particular beliefs and values that are inconsistent with them, and morality and ethics can evolve.

I agree with Stinkfoot that we shouldn't just uncritically accept the values that our society or government tell us are right, but should use our own judgment. That's different from saying "Anything goes".

[Okiefreak]

.I guess my point was that values and ideals are an important part of human "Reality". Individual values may differ, but there are some commonalities based on human nature and needs. Equality is one that was shaped by historical changes in society, as we became less aristocratic and more democratic. But it's not just something "I" find to be good. It's a shared value in our society and other industrial democracies. Equality is rooted in the principle that each person has an equal right to respect and concern. The Nazis didn't share it, the Klan doesn't share it, but I don't feel the least bit "arrogant" in saying they're wrong, just as I don't feel arrogant in saying that slavery is wrong--it's treating people as things or objects, in violation of basic principles of empathy, utility, and fairness. Racism leads to tragic consequences and suffering that have been amply demonstrated in human history. Of course, we could say "what's wrong with suffering and tragedy?' but that's when it's time to take a stand. I and many others have not just a preference but a personal stake in acceptance of a values system that includes the principle of equality. It was important to defeat Hitler. He was evil, and was promoting an evil ideology as good.

You mention the "traditions" in Muslim societies and even some Christian communities that men are superior to women. While "traditionalists" can find passages here and there to prop up their sexist beliefs, the underlying principles of both the Qur'an and the New Testament undercut these arguments and suggest that they are mistaken. Thomas Jefferson, who said that people are "created equal" owned slaves and had sex with one of them. I think it can easily be shown that he was violating his own principles. Once articulated, our basic ideals of good and evil can be used to challenge particular beliefs and values that are inconsistent with them, and morality and ethics can evolve.

Murder is wrong, not only because we prefer to treat it that way but because it really is a potential threat to each of us and the social order on which our wellbeing depends. As for captital punishment, it's wrongness or rightness is susceptible to moral arguments. Does it deter? Does it serve any other useful purpose? If not, is it inconsistent with respect for human life?

I agree with Stinkfoot that we shouldn't just uncritically accept the values that our society or government tell us are right, but should use our own judgment. That's different from saying "Anything goes".

[GABberwocky]

http://host422.ipowerweb.com/~frankreu/Movies/YinYang.gif

I agree with Okiefreak, but I also think that there are certain factors in determining the difference between right an wrong which can add a strong clear cut rational foundation to this discussion's purpose. It is my understanding that right and wrong have always existed, therefore our perception of it never changes only the perception of just how much responsibility is worth to the existance of all things, and that to believe in right and wrong one must believe in more than one's own self in order to aquire responsibility or the freewill to choose anything at all. Without responsibility we would all be trapped into a solitary and meaningless existance, but because we are capable of being responsible we can believe in more than ourselves therefore opening up the portal to the evolution of our understanding between the differences of right and wrong. This is what creates meaning therefore giving each of us our own purpose to reach for once our understanding of what is possible within our environment is accepted. The problem with this is not knowing if our purpose is predetermind by God, the subconscious, or the conscious self or if in fact we can change our purpose each and every day by taking responsibility for our own actions and choices.

The way I see it, our consciousness and who we are is not based on our own memories but only our present state of perception. There are no such things as good or bad people, only fluctuating perceptions of individual truth. Since human consciousness has no predetermined definition of right or wrong, true or false, we are all given choices to believe that we are either individuals or that we are all just one single individual, in the case of humanity one single organism and that therefore we/I are all eternally and entirely alone. In physical reallity we all come from a singular energy, ergo 'God', defined physically as a singular biological bacteria which spread about roughly 4.5 billion years ago, on Earth anyway, into a nearly infinate number of individual perceptions leading to of course the evolution of perception itself. Since there is no beginning nor an end to this energy there is no such thing as true or false, therefore the choice is in each of our own hands to surround ourselves with things that create either positive energy (The belief that we are all individuals and contain our own personal unique meanings which live forever) or negitive energy (The solipsitic belief that nothing exists outside of one's self and that nothing one does contains meaning), which is where responsibility is transfered from the hands of God into our own individual hands. This to me seems as though there is a God and that this transfer represents God's desire to give us a doorway to that positive energy. Heaven being a place where that energy is greatly appreciated for its cost and is thus maintained in its individual form providing the sensation of life eternal for the living soul or at least for those of us who choose to have a soul. The problem with this is that there are so many things that can happen to a person which can lead them to a perminant state of lonleyness which they cannot escape from by any physiological or psychological means and because they believe there is no escape they therefore do not wish to have an eternal soul. In most cases when this happens, especially to children, the response is to degrade the world around them and their own personal being as an attempt at finding a way to disassociate themselves from the original desire to believe in something more, which now only causes them pain. This is proof that the soul and positive energy are things which can be destroyed, or in other words things that can die, which is what gives them value just like life itself. It is not at all an easy life to live when all that one does is desperately try to protect and to project one's own positive energy when all that is inside is conflict and negitive energy. It is an extremely painful experience which is why I consider it to be a disease, one of which the only cure is awareness and only when that awareness is shared by all that surround those with this particular disease. Having the ability to project a positive and sympathectic honest perspective is difficult to aquire and takes alot of work, but is well worth it if one wishes to aquire an eternal soul and if one wishes to infect others with the desire we all share for positive energy. Or, in the great words of Josiah Gilbert Holland...

"God gives no value unto men
Unmatched by meed of labor;
And Cost of Worth has ever been
The closest neighbor."

From his poem 'The Cost of Worth', and yes it does take a lot of work to create worth, a whole lot of it! Especially without making a mistake or two somewhere down the line, which is where many people lose the strength to believe that worth is worth the chore of maintaining one's belief in it. I would say, since we are all here anyway, that we might as well do what we can while we can to spread some of that positive energy that God is so obviously trying to bestow upon us through our own responsibilities. Of course this is all just my opinion, think what you like, but this is smaller version of a little poem I wrote about responsibility...


The Damned


Think twice before you look and look twice before you leap
Or so the warning went from the shepherd to his sheep
As he thus reflects the father who sacrificed his only son
Proclaiming to all that life is everlasting once it has begun

The memory is set into the eternal structure
For that is the nature of having freewill
The foundation is built out of random emotions
It cannot be denied for it claims its fill

Euthanasia is not the liberation of self
For those who deny the construct of time
We are the chosen pillars to the evolution of life
And we stand eternal individualy defined

Those who prey on the innocent only revoke their own choices
As they submit our fate to the parasites of an unwilling flood
We are the responsibilties of our very own God given voices
Yet they would allow the spilling of innocent blood

Instead of healing their wounds to retain what is left
They would steal from others with a hollowed out breath
Hallowed be thy name what commits sin unto shame
And all will be balanced for their guilt is their claim
. . . . .

As every structure unfolds the truth is revealed
So that we may each embody our own concepts to define what is real
Though our souls are not born in fact they are built over time
Where a single memory becomes the container of the structure defined

As each vessel becomes aware of the conflict within
Our choices are being born torn between salvation and sin
Sins are in the conscious acts of spreading despair for past reasons
And so the sinners grow colder darkening our lives and our seasons

As the truth hits the beaches
Their strongholds will fold
Their fires will burn out
And their hearts will grow cold

For in loves eternal warmth belongs only the holy
They are the protectors of the innocent and meek
Deceit is upon sinners as the curse of the damned
They are the pillars of the proud, selfish, and weak
. . . . .

The sands of time once silent will have finaly spoken
As every lie is revealed unto the Temple of Tokens
For if one would truly be free one must choose how one sees
And so it remains kept not in vain the nature of our worth in eternity


Grant Blackburn ©2007

[heywood floyd]

I think that good and evil do exist-- in that certain negative or positive actions invariably produce certain negative or positive reactions. These actions are a result of timeless positive and negative energy currents which comprise all things. Human beings are basically neutral vessels which are pushed and pulled by these currents at all times. But good and evil don't exist in our minds or souls (those things are neutral)... they exist in our hearts, and our instincts.

Let's assume that positive energy currents are 'good' and negative energy currents are 'evil...

If someone has a great childhood and suffers no major traumas-- if they are given everything they need and raised right, then they tend to continue being positive and do well in life. On the other hand, if someone has a terrible childhood, then they tend to be negative about things. It's not impossible to go either way at any time, but it's very difficult to go from being really negative to suddenly being really positive, and very difficult to go from being really positive to being really negative-- it's not impossible, but it often takes a major event... often akin to a meteor smashing into a planet.

Look at the idea of revenge. We consider revenge to be evil, and people who seek revenge probably know it's only feeding a negative energy, but because of the original negative action done to them, it becomes more difficult to resist the negative current that pushes them towards their negative reaction. Of course, if we can overcome our desire to take revenge on people who have wronged us, we reverse the negative current and eventually travel back into something more positive. This can be considered 'good'. If the wronged person is good or more positively charged to begin with, then it will be easier for them to resist the urge to take revenge. However if they are negatively charged or not strong enough, they will often be swept into an immense tidal wave of negativity.

And if you do something good like giving to the poor, it will often inspire someone else to do something good, or at least give them hope or make them smile. People who receive positive energies tend to follow those energies and attempt to create more positive reactions. Whether it's just being respectful of people or trying to have patience with everyone, those kinds of things do tend to inspire people to be more positive and loving. On the other hand, it's also possible for one of those poor people to take their money and then invite them to their house where they proceed to drug and rape them-- that kind of thing can easily reverse the positive person's polarity if they are not as strong as they need to be in that situation.

In other words, you tend to receive what you give, and vice versa. Negative people attract other negative people, and negative energies as well. At the same time positive people tend to attract positive energies and other positive people. On the other hand, sometimes the two collide, and there's really no telling what could happen.

Whether or not these things exist only because of conditioning or some survival instinct which requires us to live in societies because it's advantageous, it exists for human beings in our experience and our emotions, and therefore they are real. So as long as you are human and you have human instincts (and some animals as well), good and evil will exist.

Unless, of course, you're a robot or a computer or a film critic or something.

[Waking Life]

I think there is a very important distinction to be made between concepts of “good and evil” and “good and bad”.

Philosophically speaking, good and evil are dealt with in morality and are objective in nature. They are, by nature, outside the individual. Where good and bad are dealt with in ethics, and are subjective, or relative.

[i_was_in_shroom_land]

i think you just know whats good and whats evil...

if somebody shoots your mom in the face..
you're gonna think... hmm.. somethings not right here...

you just know, its in human instinct to know shit like this...

[RELAYER]

if somebody shoots your mom in the face..
you're gonna think... hmm.. somethings not right here...

And that about sum's it up :D
Good and evil do both exist, just like my dreams, just like your dreams, and just like opinions and memories. How substantial they are, how fulfilling they are, and how solid they are is not a matter, the awareness of the concept of good and evil and even the refuting their existance, exists, so therefor, they exist, in some manner of existance that exists in a different light for every person in existance.

[GABberwocky]

Here's a lil' conspiracy theory for you guys...

If human beings are being pushed and pulled by positive and negative energy and freewill does exist, then it is in our hands to choose between the two once a relatively fair understanding of this occurrence taking place has been perceived. Better yet, this means that human beings can never really be responsible for their own actions and choices until a relatively fair understanding of this occurrence is noticed and understood.

Therefore once a person aquires the knowledge necessary to know the difference between what creates joy and what creates sarrow they then aquire the responsibility to choose between the two for themselves and for the others around them given the nature of their environment and what is possible within it. This is how freewill is aquired, but still terrible things can happen in such a world of freewill where one can decide to stop believing in their own responsiblities or stop caring about them. In this case if a human being still struggling to determine the difference between positive and negative energy, such as a child, is present to witness the actions of a person who has stopped believing in their responsiblities, than this child's desperate attempt to aquire freewill may be dramatically stiffeled, in some cases completey destroyed by the actions of an irresponsible person.

Now here is the conspiracy, with all the war and terrorism going on along with all of the terrible things that the media is causing and all that the governments are doing to people it could be said that human beings are creating an excessive amount of negative energy. If the forces of light (the sun and the stars) with all of the positive energy which they create and the forces of dark are pushing and pulling against us and if becoming aware of these forces gives us freewill, then it is possible that once we aquire freewill we are given the ability to push and pull back. The more positive and negative energy we create the more we effect the gravity of the positive and negative forces around us. Because of all of the epistemic probabilities which keep our world at a suitable condition for us to exist, for example being tilted 23.44°, having our exact distance from the sun, our exact distance from the moon, etc., it is up to us to recognize consciously what these forces are and exactly what controls them so that we can be able to protect ourselves against them.

Then it could be said that long ago some people began to recognize these forces and learn how our positive and negative energy is effecting them. Right now the moon has been slowly drifting further and further away from Earth effecting the shifting of the poles and creating all kinds of dramatic weather changes along with atmospheric problems. If this is the case and freewill does exist than it is not God's responsibility to protect us it is ours. The conspiracy being that long ago the people who recognized the positive and negative energy that we create may have realized that after a certain number of people populated the Earth we would have a dramatic effect on the Earth's gravitational pull against the moon which could cause us problems. This may have happened on a conscious or even subconscious biological level in terms of our natural inherited survival instincts. But, if it was a conscious recognition than all of our wars, injustices, slavery, tyrants, etc. may have been caused by a group human beings with an understanding of the ratio of positive and negative energy which we are creating who knew that there needed to be more negative energy in us to keep the moon at it's distance as the sun is pushing it towards us. Therefore these events may have been and still continue to be planned sacrifices in order to sustain life on this planet, but nawwwww that's just crazy tawlk!

I would say if it is true that there may have been a miscalculation somewhere down the line whereas a specific variable such technology or global warming, or possibily even George Bush wasn't acounted for accurately or was underestimated and now there is too much negative energy here. This would account for all of the bad whether and lack of people who take life seriously on our planet. There is so much sorrow and negative energy going around nowadays who can take life seriously with all of this happening and with all of the people making fun of it or giving up on their responsibilities. I would also say that it is up to each of us as individuals to own up to our responsibilities and maintain them with integrity in order to set an example and to sustain and preserve the ability to believe in free human will for as long as we can, seeing as the only place where a conscious being can experience love is a place where one can choose to believe in it. I'd say that this place is worth the chore of sacrificing just as much as we can everyday to be as goodwilled as possible and to believe in the good within ourselves even in the face of the most terrible kind of negative energy any of us could imagine.

[GABberwocky]

BTW, I just noticed the weirdest coincidence. I'm a graphic designer and the Jewelry company I work for just randomly found that bear picture you have RELAYER yesterday on the net out of how many bear pictures on the internet and we are using it to make a pendant for our new collection :huh: .

[RELAYER]

GABerwocky, the freewill doesnt exactly stand out here. Becuase if you step out of the limitation of immediate human awareness, you can see it in the same light, that the 'choice' people make to push and pull is in fact, preprogrammed. Same with the theory you shared with us. Transcendence shows you that both sides of that mentality apply equally.

[RELAYER]

.....The bear masterminded this entire conversation!
Bear - 1
Free Will - 0
:&

[GABberwocky]

lol, but then again it is your choice to believe that free will does or does not exist. Responsibility and comprehension are the mother and father of all existance are they not? Without them we could not perceive of ourselves let alone something external. Therefore we would not exist and neither would our opinions on the matter. Desire is what drives us and the ability to desire is an exercise of freewill, therefore even if it's something that is preprogrammed it is still a choice. It is my belief that time is an illusion therefore there is no pre anything to program but only this moment and within it our choices are infinitely complex given the limitations of the reality we are perceiving. You touch the keyboard and a letter apears, is that your choice, not necessarily but the reaction creates responsibility and to accept or not to accept responsibility is your choice. So freewill does exist, whether it is relative to the individual or all of existance, past or future doesn't matter but only that no form of now could exist without it and since now is the only thing that does exist, responsibility is eternal and with it the choices you make. Maybe there is some super consciousness manifesting everything around you or maybe it's just you, either way somewhere within the depths of the mind is the belief in it and therefore the responsibility to maintain that belief, freewill.

Bear - 1
Freewill - 1.5

[RELAYER]

Surely freewill exists, Im not saying that it doesnt! But it exists in the same sense that good and evil exists. The 'preprogramming' is not measured in time as it applies to existance but rather to the happening initially before the dawn of creation. And how is it not so? Are not computer programs extensions of what the mind already is? Are not television and radio programmed in like fasion? The universe is composed of vibrations, consciousness is simply a tool created to receive, interpret, and project certain frequencies and it most definitley has very obvious limits in it's abilities to perceive. How then is it not programmed?
Did you chose to be born and have this awareness, this consciousness, descend upon your bodily host?
Bear - 1.8
Freewill - 1.5

[GABberwocky]

First of all we are the hosts of our bodies not the other way around...

Therein lies your folly, you're still basing your understanding of choice on past events. The words I type are not my choice only the responsibility that the now creates and with it comes the responsibility of my consitant perception of it.

Bear - 1.8
Freewill - 2.1

[RELAYER]

But how is the now any different from the then? After all, the mind can never be aware of the actual now considering that in order for it to discriminate its existance currently it needs to process its postition, and therefor is not physically able to ever simply exist in the moment. So, your now is the same as my then, except for out perception of the distance in between. (While I will say that there is no distance and that space is as much an illusion of time)
Though this argument is circular and we can only serve to compliment each other, is not everything in the comprehended universe circular? Even in the theoretical particles inside particles, the circular revolution is apparent. So being that everything is circular and revolves, is it so difficult to become aware of the programming? It is impossible to break out of revolution as long as we are tied to this phsycial multiverse, so my 'free will' allowing me to believe that I am free of the circle may exist, in my mind, but it does not make it possible to reveal to others that I may indeed break free of the revolution, just as a computer does not have the ability to create more than it is programmed potential, just as the mind can use its creative ability to manipulate that which is already programmed, and so on.
Bear - 2.4
Freewill - 2.1

[neodude1212]

While many people disagree on what is good and what is evil, there has to be some sort of universal point of view on it. Wiping away all the dogma from religion, and looking only at the core values of life, couldn't it be said that anything that hurts someone else is evil?

BTW, you dont realize how much you love baby bears, until you have merged with God after a night of methstacy and watch them on Animal Planet, refering to them as "your children"

Bear - Infinity
Freewill - 2.1

[GABberwocky]

Hey there neodude, you're located in Georgia I'm from Georgia ain't that a peach pecan pie stuffed deerhead on a wall pickup truck...

The problem was never whether free will and right and wrong are limited or not, but only whether or not they can exist for us in our daily lives. As I stated before, the words I type are not my choice but only my understanding of the responsibility which they contain. Free will is never bound by some form of mulitverse or physical reality but only the choice of whether or not one can maintain responsibility. Without it free will cannot exist, but with it free will can exist along with everything else that it creates therefore permeating the now and establishing a conscious awarness of it. Meaning that it can either be circular or seperated into two parts, or possibly and most likely an infinite number of parts the likes of which you and I could never even conceive of let alone classify in any rational sense.

Yes free will does exist though it is hard to believe in for some because of the variations of responsibility which it can produce. When the boundries of someone's free will limits them within a reality which they cannot enjoy they can choose to either reject it and along with it their responsibilities or accept it. Since one can never know if what one does has any consiquence outside of themselves believing in responsibility can only ever be a choice. Though once the choice is made and an action is taken it is imprinted on the now for all who perceive it and differently for each one who does. These are not reactions to the physical world but only reactions to the level of stress which the responsibilities of free will can create. Free will is not only a human perception but because of our complexity we can choose to question whether or not it's worth the chore of believing in and whether or not to respond to that perception. Responsibility is also something which must be shared in order to exist which in turn says something about free will and creation itself. If a single moment of joy is worth all of the pain and suffering in all of existance but can equally be paid for by believing in responsibility, the choice is simple but the free will is still there. Saying that everything is preprogrammed is a cop out on responsibility and an exercise of one's own free will to do so, but this is something that could (and often does) easily lead to misinterpretation by someone else who does not yet fully understand the responsibilities that this point of view will create for them and could easily lead them into a life that they never intended to have. Worth is certainly an important factor in life and responsibility and free will are necessary components of worth as well as intentions, without them this discussion coudn't and wouldn't be possible let alone worth having.

Bear - 1.8
Freewill - Infinity to the eternal power times forever squared pluss always minus a douchebag or two.

[The Indy Hippy]

My opinion on the subject is, anything or anyone that intentionally an' knowingly hurts another living being is "evil" Anything else falls under the category of "alright" but then there is always an exeption to each an' every rule.

People think that war when done for the "right" reasons is good. Yet who are we to determine what the "right" reasons are? Ahh the irony of the "truths" decided by society. Really I guess you can't say that anything is good or evil, but what you can say is that it's biased man.

[heywood floyd]

I was just thinking-- is evil actually a series of wrong or anatgonistic things that you do or is it when you use your free will to encourage destructive results? The two are actually very different.

1. The person who does bad things could think that he or she is basically doing good, ie: they could believe that my mother is evil, so they shoot her in the face because they think it's right and needs to be done.

Or

2. They could know that my mother is a wonderful sweet human being (which she is :) ), and they could kill her just because they know it's wrong and that's what they want.

I would say that a lot of hate and antagonism in the world has more to do with people who believe themselves to be actually good but are unable to see the good aspects of things, or because they don't have a proper sense of their actions due to anger, hate, stupidity, greed, etc...

I would say that 2 is rare, but it also exists... it's hard to imagine someone wanting to do things simply for the sake of being destructive, or simply because they know it's the wrong thing to do... but nowadays, it seems very possible.

[The Indy Hippy]

good point heywood, man. Very good point.

[RELAYER]

Hey there neodude, you're located in Georgia I'm from Georgia ain't that a peach pecan pie stuffed deerhead on a wall pickup truck...

The problem was never whether free will and right and wrong are limited or not, but only whether or not they can exist for us in our daily lives. As I stated before, the words I type are not my choice but only my understanding of the responsibility which they contain. Free will is never bound by some form of mulitverse or physical reality but only the choice of whether or not one can maintain responsibility. Without it free will cannot exist, but with it free will can exist along with everything else that it creates therefore permeating the now and establishing a conscious awarness of it. Meaning that it can either be circular or seperated into two parts, or possibly and most likely an infinite number of parts the likes of which you and I could never even conceive of let alone classify in any rational sense.

Yes free will does exist though it is hard to believe in for some because of the variations of responsibility which it can produce. When the boundries of someone's free will limits them within a reality which they cannot enjoy they can choose to either reject it and along with it their responsibilities or accept it. Since one can never know if what one does has any consiquence outside of themselves believing in responsibility can only ever be a choice. Though once the choice is made and an action is taken it is imprinted on the now for all who perceive it and differently for each one who does. These are not reactions to the physical world but only reactions to the level of stress which the responsibilities of free will can create. Free will is not only a human perception but because of our complexity we can choose to question whether or not it's worth the chore of believing in and whether or not to respond to that perception. Responsibility is also something which must be shared in order to exist which in turn says something about free will and creation itself. If a single moment of joy is worth all of the pain and suffering in all of existance but can equally be paid for by believing in responsibility, the choice is simple but the free will is still there. Saying that everything is preprogrammed is a cop out on responsibility and an exercise of one's own free will to do so, but this is something that could (and often does) easily lead to misinterpretation by someone else who does not yet fully understand the responsibilities that this point of view will create for them and could easily lead them into a life that they never intended to have. Worth is certainly an important factor in life and responsibility and free will are necessary components of worth as well as intentions, without them this discussion coudn't and wouldn't be possible let alone worth having.

Bear - 1.8
Freewill - Infinity to the eternal power times forever squared pluss always minus a douchebag or two.
Even if one holds life, nay, existance itself, to be preprogramed, one may still work out their responsibility. It is in no way an automatic negation of responsibility, for some the negation is their program, for other's it is not. I dont really see how you are making this connection as if it was so horrible and destroying a growing mind into making poor life choices out of fear or simple acceptance. We can accept reality to be playing out it's program, and continue to not only work out responsibility but rise above and beyond Nature's expectations for our reactions. The programing runs much deeper than that Im afraid. It encompasses all and can therefor neither be refuted nor proven. The choice you make to believe in one or the other is not a choice it is how you are written to react. It is knowledge of the matter, it is direct experience of witnessing Nature's program play out in front of you multiple times that gives this knowledge. And I've had it happen twice. Deja vu is not just a infested brain traffic circle during rush hour you know.
Bear - Infinity x Infinity x Infinity anything you say is topped for all infinities x a billion and 2
Freewill - 0 (damn!)

[neodude1212]

I was just thinking-- is evil actually a series of wrong or anatgonistic things that you do or is it when you use your free will to encourage destructive results? The two are actually very different.

1. The person who does bad things could think that he or she is basically doing good, ie: they could believe that my mother is evil, so they shoot her in the face because they think it's right and needs to be done.

Or

2. They could know that my mother is a wonderful sweet human being (which she is :) ), and they could kill her just because they know it's wrong and that's what they want.

I would say that a lot of hate and antagonism in the world has more to do with people who believe themselves to be actually good but are unable to see the good aspects of things, or because they don't have a proper sense of their actions due to anger, hate, stupidity, greed, etc...

I would say that 2 is rare, but it also exists... it's hard to imagine someone wanting to do things simply for the sake of being destructive, or simply because they know it's the wrong thing to do... but nowadays, it seems very possible.
either way, that is why violence never solves anything, whether you think you doing something good or not.

[BlackBillBlake]

either way, that is why violence never solves anything, whether you think you doing something good or not.
How about Hitler? I think violence was the only solution there. The alternative would have been to just allow the nazis to take over. Not a pleasant prospect.

Sometimes violence is the only way to end violence, even if that seems like a contradiction.

Maybe one day humanity will evolve beyond the basic agression intrinsic to primates in general, until then, I can't see how we could do without violence without submitting to even worse violence in some cases.

Don't get me wrong - I deplore violence, but I don't think turning the other cheek could work in every situation.

[GABberwocky]

RELAYER:
Even if one holds life, nay, existance itself, to be preprogramed, one may still work out their responsibility. It is in no way an automatic negation of responsibility, for some the negation is their program, for other's it is not. I dont really see how you are making this connection as if it was so horrible and destroying a growing mind into making poor life choices out of fear or simple acceptance. We can accept reality to be playing out it's program, and continue to not only work out responsibility but rise above and beyond Nature's expectations for our reactions. The programing runs much deeper than that Im afraid. It encompasses all and can therefor neither be refuted nor proven. The choice you make to believe in one or the other is not a choice it is how you are written to react. It is knowledge of the matter, it is direct experience of witnessing Nature's program play out in front of you multiple times that gives this knowledge. And I've had it happen twice. Deja vu is not just a infested brain traffic circle during rush hour you know.
Bear - Infinity x Infinity x Infinity anything you say is topped for all infinities x a billion and 2
Freewill - 0 (damn!)First of all, we can both agree that the mind's ability to perceive definitely has its limitations. Therefore putting excessive amounts of pressure on a growing mind can hinder its ability to grow by exceeding the level of comprehension that it is currently undergoing. Once this level of comprehension has been exceeded not only is the growing mind reluctant to proccess the information, but it becomes incapable of comprehending responsibilitly let alone being able to work out the limitations of its own free will, which then decreases the level of possibilities available to the growing mind to aquire and maintain its own intentions. This is why free will has to be shared and it is also where right and wrong come into play. My point is that there is no programing to anything even programs because they are not perceivers but only perceptions, a conscious being is capable of free will but only when it chooses to accept responsibility. If a car is going to hit you, you can jump out of the way and take responsibility for your life or you can just stand there and hope that something or someone else takes responsibility for it, either way whether or not you want to exist is up to you. Your argument is that the want is based on programmed desire which has been built up over time and is not up to us, what I am saying is that the past, present, and future are all contained within the now and that the now is a conscious choice which we all have to either believe in or not. The problem with free will is that it has to be shared in order to exist and one's ability to believe in something outside of themselves is a choice that only they themselves can take responsibility for. With responsibility comes free will, with free will comes perception, and with perception comes the existance of right and wrong.

I know all about Deja vu btw, I survived an entire day of it. Predicting a car being keyed, a large branch falling out of a tree, and an entire conversation 2 people were going to have before they even did and I wasn't even envolved in it. Deja vu is not necessarily the experience of witnessing Nature's programming playing out, it may also be, and probabily is, simply a moment of increase in the conscious ability to calculate the most likely outcome of the surrounding environment; given that every environment in all of existance might only be the produced manifestation of a singular consciousness of which its desires are driven by predictable elements that we can and do occasionally tap into. Or it could be and probabily has to be in order for free will to exist that every indipendent moment creates an infinite number of choices for every perception spawning off an infinite number of possible paradoxes, or possibly the number of choices for every moment are not infinite and instead are limited to the substantial unifying desires of some hidden purpose to every form of awareness though not infinite still enable free will to exist. These desires of limitation may seem like the preprogramming you speak of but may in fact be continuously fluctuating based on individual free will as is changes from one moment to the next creating these separate paradoxes. (By paradox I don't mean only a moment that is true and false at the same time but that can be either or and everything in between based on free will) The creation of these paradoxes would be produced when the amount of positive and negative energy within a conscious being suddenly changes dramatically, forcing them to make a life altering decision. For example when an extremely negative event happens to an extremely positively charged person. This would mean that not every choice we make would create a seperate paradox but only when these types of substantial moments happen, sort of like when you put two mirrors facing each other; it may appear in the reflection that there are an infinite number of mirrors but in reality there are actually only the two. When these parallel paradoxes separate creating different timelines for each individual perception they may occasionally create two which are not the same but eventually will reconnect and produce extremely similar circumstances. As these two separate individual conscious perceptions reunite their ability to calculate the outcomes of their surounding environments may continue to increase exponentially being based on two separate builds of understanding giving them the illusion of Deja vu until they once again seperate. For example: As a child you choose a specific career, let's say Graphic Design, to persue. In another paralell existance you choose to become an Architect. Somehow in both of these separate realities you get out of college around the same time and for some reason, even though you made up your mind differently in these two separate timelines as a child and had completely different life experiences up to this point, you still became a Graphic Designer. You get your first job and in both timelines it's the same job, different start dates maybe but the same job. One day you go into the office and something happens, you feel as though you've seen the same thing and experienced the same event happening somehow. What's going on is that at this place where you now work you've had no prior influence on it, or the lives of the people in it, in either of these timelines. Then something happens in both timelines that is extremely similar and the reactions it gets from everyone else is the same but not you because you're reconnecting to the separate you and are viewing it from two different perspectives through the same set of eyes. The idea of every moment and timeline being a paradox means that time and space are as much illusions as they are not and everything in between.

You see it is possible in many ways for us as people or any form of consciousness really to not be preprogrammed, though it is hard for us to concieve of doesn't mean that it isn't so. Just because a person gets up in the morning and drives to work doesn't mean that they can't just jump up into the air and fly the distance but instead they choose to drive. This isn't to say that there isn't a parallel existance where it does happen, who knows where the consciousness of a catatonic drifts away to and who's to say that the place where they go is any more or less real than this world. Haven't you ever heard that song BITTER SWEET SYMPHONY by the Verve? You are you because you choose to be, that bear is on that tree because it chooses to be and all of this is made possible by free will, but no matter what happens we are all responsible for whether or not we believe in it or respond to what we do or don't believe, there is no preprogramming in this equation only now. This being said, your now is different than my now because I choose to believe it is which opens up the portal to all of the nows and the responsibilities we each have towards them as they find their way into the reach of our free will.

Bear - 1
Free Will - Kind enough to allow the bear to exist ;)

BTW, my posts are at 8 which is the symbol of infinity meaning that no matter how many times you post you can never win. Pluss, I'm 23 years old and I don't know if you've ever seen that movie The Number 23, but you should be afraid. BE VERY AFRAID! Muhahahaha...

To the post below by NeoDude, because I can't post anymore or my post number changes from 8 ;p, the point of all of this is that the bear should just be happy that it exists because the only thing that can beat free will is responsibility =/. Hey I gave it a score of 1 ok, that means it's alive...
You want better than that talk to RELAYER.:nopity::sabres: :beatdeadh

[neodude1212]

How about Hitler? I think violence was the only solution there. The alternative would have been to just allow the nazis to take over. Not a pleasant prospect.

Sometimes violence is the only way to end violence, even if that seems like a contradiction.

Maybe one day humanity will evolve beyond the basic agression intrinsic to primates in general, until then, I can't see how we could do without violence without submitting to even worse violence in some cases.

Don't get me wrong - I deplore violence, but I don't think turning the other cheek could work in every situation.I guess I should have stated it better.

You bring up a good point, so I guess what I was trying to say is that someone is going to get hurt when you use violence, every single time. And that hurt spreads to family, loved ones, ect.




GAB, just let the bears win damn. It pains my heart so see their little fuzzy score at zero....
They are my children after all. lmao. good times...