The book that started Hinduism now on line for all to read

[Hari]

I have all 12(cantos) at home, and I'd love to discuss some of these stories, for they are the greatest ever written.

Ask for link then I'll send it to your addy here.
I can't copy and paste in hip forum for some problem unknown to me.

[BlackBillBlake]

I have all 12(cantos) at home, and I'd love to discuss some of these stories, for they are the greatest ever written.

Ask for link then I'll send it to your addy here.
I can't copy and paste in hip forum for some problem unknown to me.
I guess it's got to be Srimad Bhagavatam (Bhagavata Purana)!:)

If you have a problem copy and pasting, try pasting it into word as unformatted unicode text, and copy and paste from there - that seems to work for me running windows xp.

Look forward to more here!

Om Shanti!

[Hari]

Each story in the Bagavata is filled with a blessing. The one I just posted
"the day the great shiva needed help, is a title I have given to this one, that by remembering it you will be freed from your enemies.Those who tell the story and those who hear it, both benefit.

[Burbot]

Could you PM me that link cause i love reading the stories....We were looking up mythology for an English assignment, and i was reading about Genesh, and love the stories, mainly cause i beleive they are true...

[BlackBillBlake]

The Srimad Bhagavatam can be found online at


http://www.vedabase.net/ (http://www.vedabase.net/)


Also on BBT's website there are extracts and real audio files to listen to


http://www.harekrishna.com/col/books/CLAS/ (http://www.harekrishna.com/col/books/CLAS/)


Hare Krishna!

[Hari]

http://www.prabhupadavani.org/SB_index.html

[Burbot]

Thanks alot, im gonna enjoy reading that...

[Hari]

Enjoy it! The best thing there is.

[BlackBillBlake]

The Bhagavatam is certainly a great shastra, but it isn't really acurate to say its 'the book that started Hinduism'. There are earlier texts, and before they were written down, the original Vedas were preserved by being passed on by word of mouth and memorized by the Rishis.

So - even if you don't accept that the Bhagavatam was written later than the Vedas, Upanishads and other texts, still, it was written down at a time when 'Hinduism' was well established, and had been for centuries.
That is not in any way to devalue the message of the Bhagavatam, it is simply to state the facts.

Hare Krishna!

[Hari]

http://www.hindu-religion.net/postlist/cat/hinduism/list

Discussion forum



Recently I read something about the book that in all these years I didn't know (will find link).

Acording to the writer, the book was passed from Brahma to Narada muni,(that part) and he in turn dictated it to Vyasadeva who was feeling despondent even after having summarized all scriptures.(this part is in the Bhagavatam)

I also found the Brahma Samhita, and that I was very anxious to read when I heard about it, yet I never saw it in any bookstore or in any temple, so I gave up. It seemed that no one saw the importance of that book. Later I read that Chaitanya(last incarnation of Radha-Krishna) was extatic when he found it.

The Brahma samhita is Brahma's revelation when he inquired about his origin and before creating the universe. In it there's quite a description of Krishna's planet and how it is organised, which coincides pretty well even with the description in the Urantia book about the isle of Paradise.

List of Books to read

http://www.indiadivine.org/vedic-hindu-scriptures. (http://www.indiadivine.org/vedic-hindu-scriptures.htm)htm (http://www.indiadivine.org/vedic-hindu-scriptures.htm)

[4_Leaf_Clover]

thanks for the links! :)

[Hari]

. First of all, Bhagavatam had its origin from Bhagavan Himself when he told to Brahma sitting in the lotus of his navel in four verses called the cathussloki Bhagavata (II-9).

2. Brahma communicated the Bhagavata he heard from Bhagavan, to his son Narada (II-5).

3. Narad communicated it to Vyasa Maharshi (I-4,5,6,7).

4. Vyasa complied the Bhagavata and taught it to his son, Suka (I-3 and II-1).

5. Suka gave discourses in Bhagavata in seven days to King Parikshit on the banks of the Ganges (I-3).

6. Suta who was in the assembly of rishis along with Parikshit, heard it from Suka and gives a discourse in the assembly of Rishis to the chief listner Saunaka at Naimisaranya.

Vyasa ha written the Bhagavata, as spoken by Suta to Saunaka at Naimisaranya. Suta was merely reporting what Suka said to Parikshit.

Suka himself traces another origin of Bhagavata:

1. Samkarshana Murti gave the Bhagavata to Sanatkumara (III-http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/glasses.gif

2. Sanatkumara communicated it to Samkhyayana Maharshi (III-http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/glasses.gif

3. Samkhyayana communicated it to sgae Parasara and to Brihaspati(IV-http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/glasses.gif

4. Sage Parasara communicated it to his disciple Maitreya.

5. Maitreya told Bhagavata to Vidura (III-http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/glasses.gif

Adisesha propagated Bhagavata in Patala, Brihaspati in Heaven, Parasara on this earth and Sanathkumara brothers in worlds beyond heaven.

[BlackBillBlake]

Traditions are one thing - reality often quite another. Nearly all agree that the Vedas and Upanishads are the oldest Vedic literatures. The Bhagavatam dates from the middle ages, or at least, that is when it was written down.

The development of the philosophy of India has undergone many stages - succesive scriptures have appeared, which tend to summarize what has gone before, and present the materiel in new forms, in line with the demands of changing times.
Similar considerations apply for instance to the Christian Bible - very few would claim today that the so called books of Moses are actually the work of one man.
But my point was that 'Hinduism' was already well established at the time of the appearence of the Bhagavatam, therefore it is not the book that started 'Hinduism'.

[Hari]

That the vedas were the most ancient books, was allways my belief too, till I read that from the link. It makes sense that Brahma would recite that to Narada muni since acording to what I remember Narada does not die even during Brahma's night, when the universe is suspended .

The thing here, is what are the vedas and what is hinduism? vedas are books of knowledge or rather songs (gitas) since writing comes much later. hinduism I believe is a more modern term.

At any rate the Bhagavatam that recounts stories as old as the fish incarnation, and the battle with hiranyaksa by Vishnu, cannot be 6 or even 10'000 years old, but older than anyone can fathom considering how long Brahma lives; yet these stories are eternal, and they are as eternal as Vishnu.

The Shrimad Bhagavatam is the literary incarnation of God
and even Vyasadeva had to be told these stories by narada because Vyasa was playing a human being asimilating all the scriptures, yet he did not have the stories and passtimes of the many incaranations of Vishnu, which are esssential for liberation, and why pariksit chose that as the fastest and the only path he could take considering he only had seven days to live.

Vyasa was despondent after having assimiltaed all the scriptures, and he was questioning why, then Narada came and told him he needed to recount visnus passtimes.

One must make shure that one is not confusing the teachings and knowledge in these ancient books with modern interpretations taught in ordinary schools, since after all people are surprised when they find ruins that date more than 10,000 years old, when the Bhagavatam teaches that man lived millions of years ago in perfection and could last in one body for thousands of years.

[BlackBillBlake]

There is only the question here of authority - since I am not, and I doubt you are, qualified to truly interperet or even read the Vedas or the Bhagavatam in other than translation, we rely on spiritual authorities, Gurus, Rishis or else scholars and so on to translate and explain to us. If you accept only the Vaishnava tratition and no other line of Vedic knowledge or philosophy, then I wish you well, and I hope Krishna will shower His Grace on you liberally! But please accept that other lines of yoga exist, and do not dismiss that which may be the truth simply because that is what one Guru says, or one line of Gurus.


Hari Om!

[Hari]

There is only the question here of authority - since I am not, and I doubt you are, qualified to truly interperet or even read the Vedas or the Bhagavatam in other than translation, we rely on spiritual authorities, Gurus, Rishis or else scholars and so on to translate and explain to us. If you accept only the Vaishnava tratition and no other line of Vedic knowledge or philosophy, then I wish you well, and I hope Krishna will shower His Grace on you liberally! But please accept that other lines of yoga exist, and do not dismiss that which may be the truth simply because that is what one Guru says, or one line of Gurus.
Hari Om! I am not sure exactly what you are implying. I stayed at a vaishnava temple a few times , yet I was a little at conflict because I have read shaivism and I am not at war with the impersonal philosophy. The Bhagavatam 12 cantos transalated by Baktivendanta and finished by one of his devotees is still in it's orignal sanskrit word for word, and the translation its first word for word, then verse in english, the purport. My previous post was not about me or my beliefs but about the origin of the Bhagavatam, as I obtained from that vedic website. You say the vedas are older and I can't argue that, but what is the"vedas"?

We are constantly dependent on authorities for everything. I wouldn't know a thing about the scriptures or for that matter anything if not for authorities, so I'm not sure what was your point.

When anyone argues about physics or about history they can only do it by relying on the info others have written.

[BlackBillBlake]

I am not sure exactly what you are implying. I stayed at a vaishnava temple a few times , yet I was a little at conflict because I have read shaivism and I am not at war with the impersonal philosophy. The Bhagavatam 12 cantos transalated by Baktivendanta and finished by one of his devotees is still in it's orignal sanskrit word for word, and the translation its first word for word, then verse in english, the purport. My previous post was not about me or my beliefs but about the origin of the Bhagavatam, as I obtained from that vedic website. You say the vedas are older and I can't argue that, but what is the"vedas"?

We are constantly dependent on authorities for everything. I wouldn't know a thing about the scriptures or for that matter anything if not for authorities, so I'm not sure what was your point.

When anyone argues about physics or about history they can only do it by relying on the info others have written.
OK - I'll put it like this. The view of the origin and date of the Bhagavata Purana that you put forward in your earlier posts is the traditional Vaishnava view, based upon the authority of the Gaudiya Sampradya, and Srila Prabhupada in particular. Other schools hold similar views. So there is one authority.
Modern Yogis, the foremost being Sri Aurobindo, have differed from this traditional view of the origins of the Puranas in gen. and the Bhagavatam in particular. Since I accept Sri Aurobindo's view of this, that for me is authority.
If you are not at war with 'impersonalists' I am glad to hear it. I am at war with no-one, not Vaishnavas, Shaivites, Christians or anyone. :)

Hare Krishna!

[Hari]

My not 'being at war' with anyone was what created the conflict for me with the Vaishnavs since they do not allow you to sit in meditation, or read impersonal literature, since for me the Bhagavad -gita does not prohibit that, I saw no harm in doing that in addition to japa. I guess the breaking point was when I said "It's thursday and I need to visit the sidha yoga ashram".

To this day I see no war between Shiva and Vishnu, and I don't see the reason for the two philosophies to be in conflict.
"achinta veba veba".

I have read some Aurobindo but his extremely intelectual aproach makes me see him more like a great schollar than a self-realised man.

Now, Nisargadatta Maharajah speaks the most profound truth so that a person never opening a book can absorb it. Even though people do the religious rituals at his home, he is in disagreement with worship other than the reality.
Only his answers to me have matched the profound simplicity of the words of the Vaisistha's yoga book.

[BlackBillBlake]

My not 'being at war' with anyone was what created the conflict for me with the Vaishnavs since they do not allow you to sit in meditation, or read impersonal literature, since for me the Bhagavad -gita does not prohibit that, I saw no harm in doing that in addition to japa. I guess the breaking point was when I said "It's thursday and I need to visit the sidha yoga ashram".

To this day I see no war between Shiva and Vishnu, and I don't see the reason for the two philosophies to be in conflict.
"achinta veba veba".

I have read some Aurobindo but his extremely intelectual aproach makes me see him more like a great schollar than a self-realised man.

Now, Nisargadatta Maharajah speaks the most profound truth so that a person never opening a book can absorb it. Even though people do the religious rituals at his home, he is in disagreement with worship other than the reality.
Only his answers to me have matched the profound simplicity of the words of the Vaisistha's yoga book.
I know what you mean about the Gita, and the fact is that Krishna does say that there are different paths of yoga - not only Bhakti. Still, for many, Bhakti is the best and easiest path.
Sri Aurobindo was indeed a highly intelligent sage, and one with enormous intellectulal powers. But He was most certainly 'realized' - I agree that it is hard to find a way into His work, but it is well worth the effort.
The truth itself may be simple, but we are complex beings with complex minds, and I guess if there was any way Sri Aurobindo could have simplified things He would have done so. An easily accesible work of His that I'd reccommend very highly is 'The Mother'. But if you like the Gita, 'Essays on the Gita' might possibly appeal - but Sri A. goes way beyond any other interpretation I've ever come accross.
There is no conflict between Shiva and Krishna - all that is human invention and the tendency of traditions to become rigidified -both are forms of Ishwara. Both are God. It is for the individual to follow whichever path of yoga they are suited to - for which they posses the Adikhara.
I will have a look at the work of Nisargadatta Maharajah - I am always open to any great yogic teachings.

Hari Om!

[Hari]

It's my personal way of thinking; to each indeed his own. If you look in my posts about astrology or music (performing arts), my posts are all about simplyfying, and all I do is to make things as clear as it is possible for everyone, and I believe that that is the pure path, the clear road, the way back to Godhead too.

Complex, overly verbalised essays, or poetrified(me word) works are for some, but it's improper for others. For me the shortest road is the straighest.

Some like to hide knowledge and give it to the deserving only, and that has been the tradition,for some but to make the paths crooked is not the way of one that seeks only to share, and not to assure a living out of his teachings. The more pure the intention, the better and more straight to the heart will be the teachings of any sage.

I recommend based on that: "I am that" by Nisargadatta Maharajah.

[BlackBillBlake]

It's my personal way of thinking; to each indeed his own. If you look in my posts about astrology or music (performing arts), my posts are all about simplyfying, and all I do is to make things as clear as it is possible for everyone, and I believe that that is the pure path, the clear road, the way back to Godhead too.

Complex, overly verbalised essays, or poetrified(me word) works are for some, but it's improper for others. For me the shortest road is the straighest.

Some like to hide knowledge and give it to the deserving only, and that has been the tradition,for some but to make the paths crooked is not the way of one that seeks only to share, and not to assure a living out of his teachings. The more pure the intention, the better and more straight to the heart will be the teachings of any sage.

I recommend based on that: "I am that" by Nisargadatta Maharajah.
Now I'm not sure what you're saying - but I feel that very likely, its some criticism of Sri Aurobindo.
Well - thats up to you - all are free to pursue whatever path they wish.
As for simplifying things - I'm afraid some things can't be simplified - this is a universe of incredible complexity, and we are complex beings. Also, IMHO there's been more than enough 'dumbing down' in recent times - and where does it lead?
Knowledge will only come to 'the deserving' because one must be worthy to receive knowledge. A purity of aspiration is obviously essential.Without that, is no yoga of any path.

Hari Om!

[Hari]

Now I'm not sure what you're saying - but I feel that very likely, its some criticism of Sri Aurobindo.
Well - thats up to you - all are free to pursue whatever path they wish.
As for simplifying things - I'm afraid some things can't be simplified - this is a universe of incredible complexity, and we are complex beings. Also, IMHO there's been more than enough 'dumbing down' in recent times - and where does it lead?
Knowledge will only come to 'the deserving' because one must be worthy to receive knowledge. A purity of aspiration is obviously essential.Without that, is no yoga of any path.
Hari Om! Simplifying is the work of great minds; krishna simplified all the wisdom of the vedas before a battle to Arjuna who although considered wise for a ksatriya, he was obviously missing the point of all the vedas, Einstein simplified the wholle concept of matter by E=mc2, and somewhere within the books of CC, you'll read Don Juan giving the essentials to Carlos when the writer is clear-minded enough to find it among his voluminous notes.

Simplicity cannot be overrrated, it's the very backbone of spirituality, and yes I dislike people making a good living passing themselves as erudite schollars of wisdom like the pharisees with the old testament, while their objective is make it appear complex and unreachable to the
uneducated and simple. These you will find in every age.

Although I apreciate the translating of the voluminous Bhagavatam by Baktivendanta, I do not suscribe to the concept that everyone has to read the purport to understand what each of the the verse say. I find it useful sometimes and other times slowing down the rhythm of the story and the overall meaning to do that.

The deserving of knowledge is not exclusive to those who were able to afford a degree in theology, and have sophisticated minds, but those who have awakeneded themselves by following their hearts, and you can find them in the least expected of places.

The universe is not complex at all; only the mind of the confused is, that perceives it as that.

When all is one and made one one essential thing, where is the complexity? Enlightment and true wisdom are not separate from simplicity.

The way back is from confusion and doubt, to clarity and certainty through simplicty alone.

AUM is the ultimate simplicity, three vowels one word. How many chant it and miss its meaning!

[BlackBillBlake]

The deserving of knowledge is not exclusive to those who were able to afford a degree in theology, and have sophisticated minds, but those who have awakeneded themselves by following their hearts, and you can find them in the least expected of places.

The universe is not complex at all; only the mind of the confused is, that perceives it as that.

When all is one and made one one essential thing, where is the complexity? Enlightment and true wisdom are not separate from simplicity.

The way back is from confusion and doubt, to clarity and certainty through simplicty alone.

AUM is the ultimate simplicity, three vowels one word. How many chant it and miss its meaning!
I don't say one needs any kind of academic qualification - I say one must be worthy to receive knowledge -and really thats obvious. But knowledge exists at various levels. The true knowledge of the Divine is on a plane above the ordinary mental level, so it's not a matter of a purely intellectual knowledge, but something higher. However, those with a more developed intellect may be better able to make 'a mental transcription' of what they have experienced.

In the highest state of realization it may be that everything is simple - but it is clear enough that nature is a very complex thing, and we are complex beings. Only in the un-manifest is this simplicity - in the manifest universe we are faced with complexity at every turn - is it too much for our poor little minds to deal with? Do we just seek an escape?

There is no way on the level of ordinary existence that we can ignore this complexity - and there is the danger of 'dumbing down'. This is a major way to put people off yoga - if we present it as something that requires little intelligence and no mental development.

Also, in the Bhagavad Gita, Sri Krishna says that everything is to be used to serve God - including, presumably, the intellect, faculties of critical reasoning, and so on.

Hari Om!

[Hari]

But are we here to unravel nature (ascending knowledge) or to awaken to truth (descending knowledge)?

[BlackBillBlake]

But are we here to unravel nature (ascending knowledge) or to awaken to truth (descending knowledge)?
Both of these and more, I would suggest.This very short quote from Sri Aurobindo encapsulates what might be the right view

'At one stage in the yoga it becomes neccessary to refuse to accept as definite and final any kind of intellectual idea or opinion whatever in its intellectual form, and to hold it in a questioning suspension until it is given its right place and luminous shape of truth in a spiritual experience enlightened by supramental knowledge'

Also, ascending knowledge in my understanding doesn't mean only intellectual knowledge, but higher spiritual knowledge - that is what we are ascending towards. The ordinary mundane knowledge of the mind does not require any ascent - we are already on the level of the discursive intellect - that is part of the problem, because of its dominance. But rather than rejecting the mind and the intellect, the path is to allow the higher spiritual knowledge which is descending to transform these levels of our being so that they become a true reflection or image of truth, whilst seeing that the complete truth is something high above our mental conceptions.

[Hari]

Both of these and more, I would suggest.This very short quote from Sri Aurobindo encapsulates what might be the right view

'At one stage in the yoga it becomes neccessary to refuse to accept as definite and final any kind of intellectual idea or opinion whatever in its intellectual form, and to hold it in a questioning suspension until it is given its right place and luminous shape of truth in a spiritual experience enlightened by supramental knowledge'

Also, ascending knowledge in my understanding doesn't mean only intellectual knowledge, but higher spiritual knowledge - that is what we are ascending towards. The ordinary mundane knowledge of the mind does not require any ascent - we are already on the level of the discursive intellect - that is part of the problem, because of its dominance. But rather than rejecting the mind and the intellect, the path is to allow the higher spiritual knowledge which is descending to transform these levels of our being so that they become a true reflection or image of truth, whilst seeing that the complete truth is something high above our mental conceptions. Ascending represents one building a rocketship with fuel and spending billions of dollars to see it all blow up in smoke;(I am the "Challenger") and descending is God coming down in a shinning spaceship and taking you there.(as in the case of Druva maharaja)

Knowledge that we get from the scriptures is descending, as 'it came down from God', and ascending knowledge is man challenging God intelectually, or like in the tower of Babel, thinking one can build a tower to heaven.

In the case of rocketships and man's theories, and reliance on his intelect, it's all the same. God will destroy those efforts because they are futile.

[BlackBillBlake]

Ascending represents one building a rocketship with fuel and spending billions of dollars to see it all blow up in smoke;(I am the "Challenger") and descending is God coming down in a shinning spaceship and taking you there.(as in the case of Druva maharaja)

Knowledge that we get from the scriptures is descending, as 'it came down from God', and ascending knowledge is man challenging God intelectually, or like in the tower of Babel, thinking one can build a tower to heaven.

In the case of rocketships and man's theories, and reliance on his intelect, it's all the same. God will destroy those efforts because they are futile.
This doesn't make any sense to me at all. If we just remain on this level of ordinary consciousness, then we remain in the ignorance. It is not a question of 'challenging' God - it is a fundamental teaching of nearly all systems of yoga that we can attain to a higher, Divine consciousness. Without that what is yoga? Ritual observance and so on I suppose.

It's pointless to continue this discussion as far as I can see, as it is going nowhere except round in circles. You don't like the intellect and think that it is to be rejected if one wants at all to do this yoga. I don't accept that. I doubt there is anything you could say to make me change my position, so lets just leave it at that.
I wish you God's grace in your path.

Hari Om!

[themnax]

the claim that any one book started hinduism is perhaps somewhat questionable. we know only that it is very ancient (more ancient then any other currently practiced belief and even several that have ceased to be, with the exception of indiginous traditions and possible exception of taoism) and that there are or were very ancient manuscripts that were, and memory of their having existed remains, at its core.

it is of course perfectly possible that they have been somehow preserved or at least their spirit and heart resurected. i have often dreamed of getting my hands on them and being able to read them in something resembling a more or less reliable translation.

that the site mentioned makes such an effort is of value beyond measure, though only just having learned of its existence from this thread, i remain for the moment cautious of investing certainty in its content.

=^^=
.../\...

[Hari]

In a manner of speaking all knowledge is descending knowledge, which simply means we have received it.

[BlackGuardXIII]

Thank you Hari, this treasure chest of information is something I have hoped to find for years. I have only one canto at home, and have read 3 different Christian bibles, the Quran, the Dhammapada, the Bhagavad Gita, and some of the other religious holy books. I have always wanted to read the Vedas.
A question if I may. This is a curious thing to me. If these texts are the best ever written, then how can it be that the oldest are the best? It is like the Great Pyramid at Giza, later ones were inferior, and now I doubt we could duplicate it. This goes against all logic. It is akin to a Porsche race car being the first car. Does this not suggest an advanced civilization in the distant past? I feel it does.

[Hari]

Thank you Hari, this treasure chest of information is something I have hoped to find for years. I have only one canto at home, and have read 3 different Christian bibles, the Quran, the Dhammapada, the Bhagavad Gita, and some of the other religious holy books. I have always wanted to read the Vedas.
A question if I may. This is a curious thing to me. If these texts are the best ever written, then how can it be that the oldest are the best? It is like the Great Pyramid at Giza, later ones were inferior, and now I doubt we could duplicate it. This goes against all logic. It is akin to a Porsche race car being the first car. Does this not suggest an advanced civilization in the distant past? I feel it does.

Glad you ask that question because I haven't even began to talk about what's in the book itself.

It is the only place I have read that the inteligence and longevity of man decreases as the ages pass. The exact figures as to how long people would live before, are also in the book.

It requires a faithful mind to believe, because the numbers are staggering.

Maybe I'll open a new thread and post those numbers. How long Brahma the creator lives, how long were the ages, and how long this age itself will last.

Anyone is welcome to put that info also.
Most people I have met personally were not that interested in it, but that hasn't stopped me from finding that information fascinating.

People used to have very strong memories in the golden age, and they didn't need books.

Books came around the silver age; and Valmiki was one, if not the first writer.The Ramayana was his first book written in verse which he discoverded by accident.( first thing he saw when he opened his eyes after a long meditation was an act of cruelty; a bird being shot by an arrow while singing to his mate).

The present age is the Iron age, which followed the Bronze age. Even in the Bronze age people were more noble, and in every way more creative than now.

The proof that we decrease in creativity century after century, and even decade after decade, is in the works of art and music from the past.

I reffer to the middle ages and centuries before that, yet only four decades ago people were more peaceful and more spiritual, and wrote more sublime music, and because of that we long for those times to have remained, yet degradation moves on. Quarell and hipocrisy increase in this age, the last age, the age of Kali.