Om and Illusion

[yyyesiam2]

Yet another logic trail......


I have already written about why the Om represents duality, and how duality is necessary for there to be experience as we know it. this is to add to that argument. The symbol of the Om itself represents the range of duality. it begins with the O sound which gradually changes into the mmmmm sound. this represents the higher non-physical (vowel) vibrations changing over time (distance, seperation) into the lower physical (consonant) vibration. we see the lower material on one end and the higher divine on another. it seems we are supposed to move to a higher point, naturally, but this may not be so. this is a range of experience we are talking about. say you make it to the higher end. first of all, for reasons i will have to go into in a moment, this may not be possible. the range would continue to expand as more beings strethed it's capacity. the entire process is an infinite illusion. there is no finish line. this is what duality, the om, creates. this is the beast. the om is dual nature and thusly secondary to void, oneness, god. the unmanifest. though unmanifest is ultimate, i suppose there is an idea that could represent the ultimate secondary, godmind-the mind of the unmanifest. if one original manifestation (one universe) plays out every potential form it is encoded with, it would logically have nowhere to go but the beginning conditions, the same but transformed-similar to the way we humans go through a lifetime. this would take the dual range of the om and connect the two ends. what does this form? a perfect circle. complete, without any need for movement from one end to the other, with it's dual nature intact. godmind. now factor in more than one universe. each perception of life is a universe. every container of awareness is capable of godmind. now what happens when more than one godmind is manifest? the combination of these two minds is now the ulitimate manifestation. and here we are, back to the process of infiniti that duality creates. a beautiful, ugly, infinite distraction.

[sunyatasamsara]

i basically agree except for the illusions secondary nature to void. you can say it came from the void but i think it is the void and thats the illusion. they say something cant come out of nothing and i agree, what we consider something is just an illusion, it in fact is nothing. just cause something appears to be does not make it real. be honest if you were void would you prefer to be void for eternity or dream infinite dreams. the cause of reality comes from the absolute terror of being alone(nothing), why does everyone fear going home(death). just cause we appear to be doesnt make it so, we are still alone right now sunyatasamsara.

"i dream therefore i am not"

[yyyesiam2]

the whole secondary nature thing is just my logical way of organizing this info. i think we basically agree here. the thing is, illusion or not, we experience being different from the void.

[hippie_chick666]

I agree that w/o dualism, our minds could not operate! I think it's kind of like a computer program writing in 0's and 1's and the infinite can be represented with 2's and that program couldn't comprehend the new code. Does this make any sense? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Dualism, to me, means the presence of a faulty presumption of the mind- the division of us and others. Our mind creates this barrier & one must transcend the mind to experience unity, which cannot be understood w/ thought. What are others viewpoints on this?

Peace and love

[yyyesiam2]

more like infinite would be 0 and duality would be 1 (if it could be represented that way.....it would probably be more like the absence of numbers).

here's what led to this stream of thought (a response to the question of our behaviour being subject to causality):


true, the current norm of behavior is automatic and saturated with the "laws" of this universe. focus your logic on this, however: is behavior more or less automatic when it comes from a place of stillness? if you truly follow the constant chatter in your mind, you may see that it is illusory and doesn't reflect what you truly are. one thought leads to another which leads to another and so on. when we relax our focus on the present, the chatter increases. when we are not aware of the present, of now, of life itself, we are basically living in a sort of hell. in this hell reality (and there seem to be levels of awareness ranging from the most dark and material to an infiniti of light and awareness) we are not in control because we don't realize that what our subconscious (the irrational infinite mind) is focused on is created. to live fully is to have no division between your waking and subconscious mind (to manifest all of your latent characteristics) and to be constantly creating your life from a place of still awareness. at least, that's as much of a full life that i can currently conceptualize. you are beginning to see the grid, the matrix you are immersed in and that is one of the first steps to freeing yourself of an automatic drone existance. i don't know what else to say. you are god clothed in matter. you are the result of polarity. godmind and matter are really just different extremes of the same existance and this polarity is what creates life as we know it. this place is made of vibration, as our sciences (physical and spiritual) are telling us. vibration is an oscilation between two points in infiniti. vibration is polarity. the om. when there is no vibration, no polarity, there is only infinite calm. infinite silence. the void.

[yyyesiam2]

or 0 could be the om and 1 the first singular awareness.

[hippie_chick666]

I was just using 0, 1, and 2 b/c I remembered something about computer programs using a binary system, 0 and 1. I didn't really mean anything philosophical about those numbers, just what little I understand about computers.

Peace and love

[yyyesiam2]

i kinda feel like dualism, creation and growth are all intertwined. i have that posted elsewhere, though.

[hippie_chick666]

I read as an argument against the existence of a Creator (based on the idea that no cubic spheres exist by definition) that God would not have created the world if he was all perfect. Need for the world shows that God has need, which means that he is not complete, and therefore not perfect. For the actual argument, here's the link: http://www.evilbible.com/Impossible.htm

One thing that was mentioned was what existed, then, before God created the world. This is a good question that I think fits in with this thread. The Mayans believe there was two who existed and sat together and whatever they thought about was created. The Aztecs believe a mother was created in the image of the unknown. The Japanese believed heaven and earth were not separated. There are many different versions of what existed before our world- do you see these attempts to explain something that cannot be understood intellectually? I think this is a real possibility. We have a history of trying to explain the unknown w/ mythology, and being from the human mind, we automatically create dualism in our tales. Any thoughts?

http://www.magictails.com/creationlinks.html

Peace and love

[yyyesiam2]

check out my post division/creation. that being said, i've thought alot about this, and as far as i can see, it is unanswerable from any logical point of view. there is always the before question. what came before that? what came before that? etc.....

[sunyatasamsara]

god is not real, if you rationally think about it it cant be cause of the fact of suffering. at least the perfect god concept. there is only one way god could exist with the fact of suffering and that is if we are his dreams.

"i dream therefore i am not"

[yyyesiam2]

what reason would there be to change or grow without suffering?

[yyyesiam2]

and i feel the dream comment, man.

[RELAYER]

Yea I agree in a way, we are being dreamed. If we are being dreamed, it is this very Temple, this very Kingdom of Heaven, this very God that is within all of us, the Soul, which is manifesting our consciousness. Everything therefor is an illusion, Om included, because Om is not what manifest's existance, Om is guided by Sat, which is the only Truth, the divine intelligence is the conductors hand guiding the cosmic symphony. Om will lead us to Truth, but it is not Truth itself, it is only the vibrational aftermath of thought, the film of sound which covers the source of what we, as the universes, are condensation out from.
The Mind which the macrocosm is dreamed from, is the very same Mind which we, as idividuals, are dreamed from. We are the seperate hosts for the descending consciousness which distributed itself amongst the many. But it's the same thing, God is God and we are temporary dream images playing out against the backdrop of time and space. We are in the movie theater, watching life go by on the screen, and God is the Projector, Om is the light between the source and the images. Using Om as a guide to transcend our dual situations and follow back to it's origination is the purpose of yoga. God has left a trail of Light for us to follow so that we may discover our purpose. The belief in God without direct knowledge is the same thing as disbelief in God, they are without truth and are illusions. Only direct knowledge of God is Truth, and this can only be experienced on a personal level, can not be shared because this is part of the duality, when we experience God in Truth, we ARE everyone else and everyone else is us. Such concepts of duality break apart as the Oneness of Soul is realised.
namaste

[hippie_chick666]

The belief in God without direct knowledge is the same thing as disbelief in God, they are without truth and are illusions. I found the entire post very profound, but I really like the above sentence. Thanks for posting this.

Peace and love

[yyyesiam2]

yeah, thanks for the feedback, man. i really do appreciate all of you.

[yyyesiam2]

so do you guys think this process continues down beyond our level? are we capable of creating entire worlds through "the art of dreaming?" (carlos castaneda)

[Bl4ck3n3D]

I do not know about through dreaming, but I do know it is possible through will.

[hippie_chick666]

I think when we awaken to what is, the world will change. When we wake up from our dream of illusions, the world will change.

Peace and love

[BlackBillBlake]

Check this


http://www.dalsabzi.com/Mantras/aum_and_chakras.htm

[soothskater]

Shouldn't it be " I do not think, therefore I am not. And then "I do not dream therefore I am not dreaming" ?? ....

[yyyesiam2]

perhaps it means something to him that you don't perceive.

[yyyesiam2]

oh and to blackbillblake, that is exactly the type of feedback i was looking for. thank you.

[BlackBillBlake]

:) ..

[yyyesiam2]

probably not necessary to say, but no sarcasm intended. you showed me a different perspective and i am grateful.

[sunyatasamsara]

sooth im not trying to say the opposite with that quote, im coming from a different perspective. Western thought says "I think therefore I am." i follow Eastern thought which would say "i think therefore i think i am"

[yyyesiam2]

i like that one better. i think therefore i think i am. awesome.

[BlackBillBlake]

probably not necessary to say, but no sarcasm intended. you showed me a different perspective and i am grateful.
It didn't occur to me that there was any sarcasm.

[themnax]

sooth im not trying to say the opposite with that quote, im coming from a different perspective. Western thought says "I think therefore I am." i follow Eastern thought which would say "i think therefore i think i am"this is where "eastern thought" actually makes more sense to me then "western thought".

most certainties are presumptions upon what we can't possibly know.
but we CAN observe, and observing, attempt to avoid deceiving ourselves, which, while unlikely to ever be completely successful, tends to be worth the effort anyway.

i mean, we can either attempt to avoid deceiving ourselves, or know, because the little voice of reality in the back of our heads keeps telling us so, that we are otherwise living in complete illusion.

=^^=
.../\...

[yyyesiam2]

it was the dots after the smiley that made me unsure. cool.

[BlackBillBlake]

It won't let you post just the smiley - you have to enter at least one letter or punctuation mark.

Here's another link to some info on the OM

http://hinduism.about.com/od/omaum/a/meaningofom.htm

[yyyesiam2]

thanks. that's actually alot closer to my own thought process. i haven't studied the om at all, other than it's basic meaning, being the original and ongoing vibration of existance. the words i started this thread with were a logic stream that sprang from that basic understanding during meditation. it is reassuring to see how close this came to what you have shown me.

[BlackBillBlake]

Happy to be of use.

Myself BTW I think the OM covers everything - both the oneness the Hindus refer to as Brahman, and also the entire cycle of the manifest universe.

[yyyesiam2]

i agree at the moment, though, to be manifest seems to imply duality. unmanifest and manifest.

[sunyatasamsara]

Duality IS the illusion. Like when you have a dream it appears to be but has no reality. When you wake up you realize its not real but you experienced it so it has apparent reality. The seeming duality of the dream comes from the oneness of consciousness.

[BlackBillBlake]

i agree at the moment, though, to be manifest seems to imply duality. unmanifest and manifest.
Personally, I think that duality and unity exist simultaneously. The problem is that our minds operate on the principle of dualism, hence the unity is obscured from us.

[BlackBillBlake]

Duality IS the illusion. Like when you have a dream it appears to be but has no reality. When you wake up you realize its not real but you experienced it so it has apparent reality. The seeming duality of the dream comes from the oneness of consciousness.
But when you wake up, you are still in the so-called illusory world of dualities.

[yyyesiam2]

so i suppose the only way to talk or think about true oneness is to be silent.

[BlackBillBlake]

so i suppose the only way to talk or think about true oneness is to be silent.
Yes, that would seem to be so. Hence the idea of yogis that the mind has to be transcended - or at least the rational mind.

[Jedi]

Duality IS the illusion. Like when you have a dream it appears to be but has no reality. When you wake up you realize its not real but you experienced it so it has apparent reality. The seeming duality of the dream comes from the oneness of consciousness.The whole problem of illusion stems forth from a lack of proper understanding of duality, oneness and consciousness.

[sunyatasamsara]

Exactly, the Buddhist call that Right View.

[Jedi]

:) which only comes with devotion and awareness :)

[yyyesiam2]

i love you people.

[Maitreya]

Duality exists as as the balance, dependent upon itself to exist. But as neither force can exist without the other, they are one. Only humans seperate reality into bad and good.

[BlackBillBlake]

Duality exists as as the balance, dependent upon itself to exist. But as neither force can exist without the other, they are one. Only humans seperate reality into bad and good.
How about animals? They obviously have a sense of what they like and what they don't, even if it isn't thought out in abstract language as in the case of humans.

[Maitreya]

There is no proof of that animals associate things as bad or good, but rather as pleasing or painful. That is one aspect where animals and humans differ evolutionarily. Humans take these base feelings and use abstract thought to analyze them, thus confusing the situation even more.

[BlackBillBlake]

There is no proof of that animals associate things as bad or good, but rather as pleasing or painful. That is one aspect where animals and humans differ evolutionarily. Humans take these base feelings and use abstract thought to analyze them, thus confusing the situation even more.
The duality is cleary there in animals then.
Whether or not is is mentalized, it is still the duality between pleasure and pain.

[yyyesiam2]

so, i suppose the question we are asking is: does duality arise out of thought or experience?(-and-)do animals have enough thought power to remember the difference between pleasure and pain? i think we can agree on an answer to the second question.....right?

[BlackBillBlake]

so, i suppose the question we are asking is: does duality arise out of thought or experience?(-and-)do animals have enough thought power to remember the difference between pleasure and pain? i think we can agree on an answer to the second question.....right?
I'd say it comes from sense experience, and the reaction of various levels of the being to such experience.
Many mystics seem to have the idea that the world is an illusion and only the Oneness is real. My own view is that both are real.
However, that's not to say mental illusion doesn't exist. It certainly does. But I think it arises because we don't experience the world directly as it is, but mediated via the whole instinctual, feeling and thinking nature.
Of course, that implies something in us which is higher than mind.

[themnax]

i'd say duality arises out of nothing other then the illusion some people have somehow aquired that they gain something desirable to them by coercing and manipulating others.

we each have individual preferences, but they are a matter of degree rather then in any sense true opposites. i'm not saying there can't be such a thing, but even extreme differences don't automatically equate to conflict.

i will say though, that i've observed no requirement for there to have to be.

at all.

=^^=
.../\...