Whats very wrong with all Religion?

[Brother_Amos]

In both the Koran and the Holy Bible we are taught that in the begining, the lord God created the first Man and then he created the first Woman.

But if this is true and in the begining there was only two of us, then are we being told to understand we've been having sex with our own brothers and sisters?

That is the most disgusting and repulsive thing that I have ever heard!

I ask you, how pure and clean do you feel now?

Tainted by Original SIN!

[Moon_Beam]

You say that like this is the first time Christians would have heard of this!

God created a family - Adam and Even began this. This just shows that we are all a part of God's family. God put a stop to this later on in the bible (Leviticus 18). Did you never wonder about the phrase "brothers and sisters in Christ"?

[Brother_Amos]

Yes but by embracing your religion you think that another man who is born under the same sin has the rights to absolve you and grant you absolution or speak on Gods behalf and express to know the answers.

When by their own admission they where born in SIN

[Moon_Beam]

Well no because that is the way God made it, it became a sin from Leviticus not before then. Adam and Eve lived for like 800 years in order to create the world - The bible states when sexual relationships within families became a sin.

Do you mean Priests? Priests do not themselves forgive sins, you do not need a bridge other than Jesus for sins to be forgiven. Most preachers will have had a calling - meaning that God has chosen them to preach the word to others in a position of authority.

Everyone are sinners - so yes they are too, but they know that sin will be forgiven by believing in Jesus.

[Brother_Amos]

It's not out faith I'm having a go at;)

I just don't see how a priest for either can proclaim to hold true to divinity.

We had our shot at a lord and Saviour, we blew it, that only leaves the last half of the book to look forward too.. Great eh!

[Moon_Beam]

How do you mean?

Priests sin of course they do.

[Brother_Amos]

Look, how could Jesus (Yahshua) in the toh'rah have been Divine and yet Human at the same time. The virgin birth!

A priest or a prophet is not divinity! It's just not the same!

If god exist's he can travel faster than the speed of light, right!

Albert Einstein - "Nothing can travel faster than the speed of light!"

I think their is a god, so did einstein, but I dont think the church or the koran can trully express to understand the will of god. He might have changed his mind in the last 600 years, how can we say otherwise.

[Moon_Beam]

Priests don't compare themselves to God, that's not what they are there for, I don't know what priests you know. They are saying "look worship me I am God".

Einstein was a genius yes - but even he didn't see God or know what he can do!

I believe in a coming judgement also but I don't think that the church is doing wrong. I see it is an established place where you can go to worship God.

I am trying to answer what you ask, I asked what you meant because I can easily ramble off topic. Sorry if that annoyed you.

[Moon_Beam]

He might have changed his mind in the last 600 years, how can we say otherwise.
You're right, until there is a sign, all we can go on is the bible

[xexon]

All real prophets, etc, have always been both human and divine. Its their very nature. No virgin birth required.

A priest is a book trained person with little to no spiritual ability themselves. They are taught to lead. They are unlikely to be able to transmit spiritual energy like a saint can.

The speed of light is not correct. There are numerous sub-atomic particles which travel faster than light itself does. Light is pretty slow stuff compared to whats actually out there in the spectrum.

Einstein was right in his day, but not now.



x

[Brother_Amos]

The church my brother burned countless people at the stake and you cant see what they did wrong or why they are one of the wealthiest institutions in the world.

"Please help us to fix our leeky roof!" - Remember what Jesus did when he found they had turned the house of the lord into a place of business?

I agree with what Jesus had to say but that was give away what you have and live free from taxes. Love thy neighbor's, I don't think we're being very loving blowing them up!

If god does exist he must be getting very pissed, we've used religion as a shield for the last 600 years to have a go at each other!

[Moon_Beam]

Not we.. some

I said doing not did

Christianity isn't about having a go at people.

You are using generalisations as a basis for your arguement and not personal faith. I don't even know where you are going with this!Maybe you need to think about what Christianity means to you and stop saying all Christians are the cause of Gods wrath or all things bad!

[Brother_Amos]

hmm, I would submit we all seek religion out of our own selfish desire to get into the gates of heaven and that is just plain wrong.

how can you absolve a serial killer on death row if he suddenly embraces religion!

[Brother_Amos]

That decision rests with God not the priest!

[Bl4ck3n3D]

Is speed of thought not the fastest speed we know of in this Universe?

[Brother_Amos]

If he was omnipotent he could create a rock so big and heavy he himself could not lift it!

What is a god but a being who is worshiped by those considered to be beneath it.

Yes, yes I've heard all those arguements.

[Moon_Beam]

I actually don't just seek Heaven, I just feel that there is something bigger in the world. I didn't start searching for religion as a way to be saved, I turned to many other religions before Christianity, ones that don't "save" you.

And again, priests may say you are forgiven because the bible says that if someone fully turns their heart to Jesus and repents they will be forgiven. It may be that the indivdual doesn't actually repent but just saying it - the priest isn't to know that but God will and therefore the final judgement does lie with God.

[Brother_Amos]

Yes, I have turned to other faiths myself, but if we are to believe Christianity, then you should know they found the 'End of Days' in the hidden bible code of the toh'rah and that is just a little something that would make anyone renounce their faith, why me, why in my lifetime, why are we being subjected to see something so horrid come to pass. I renounce my faith, I am off to embrace something that doesn't tell me im screwing my own family.

Life is like a penis, when its hard you get screwed, but when its soft you cant beat it!

[Moon_Beam]

Well go and off and embrace something else, I'm not going to try and stop you!

I can only speak for myself within Christianity and I believe in a Second Coming. No one knows when it will be, but it can only been seen as something to strengthen faith not renounce it. But hey, do what you want, I'm not going to argue with you!

[Brother_Amos]

LOL, well I guess I made my choice when I went to watch Metallica and stuck my hand in the air in a gesture we all know far too well.

[Brother_Amos]

After all the number of people who have kept god's commandments has diminished considerably over the last 600 years, might as well be on the winning side! Where the hell did I leave my black kaftan!

Dreams of War, Dreams of Lies, Dreams of DragonFire and of things that will bite! Hell Yeah
Exit light, enter night!http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/newsmilies/reddevil.gif

Take my hand - we're off to never never land!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRYDetbwegs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lh1ypNyHRmA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNL7nHWhMh0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGLXFUQ5iUA

[xexon]

There is no "side".

As long as you see one, you'll not know God.


x

[stev90]

I believe in a Second Coming. No one knows when it will be...

That is blind faith.

I take it, you also believe in Santa Claus, leprechauns, bigfoot, little fairies and the cookie monster.
Cool.

[MellowMike]

In both the Koran and the Holy Bible we are taught that in the begining, the lord God created the first Man and then he created the first Woman.

But if this is true and in the begining there was only two of us, then are we being told to understand we've been having sex with our own brothers and sisters?

That is the most disgusting and repulsive thing that I have ever heard!

I ask you, how pure and clean do you feel now?

Tainted by Original SIN!Hi Brother Amos.

There is an answer to this question, one that is not taught in most churches. To learn the truth, you must study what God actually told us about creation of man in the Bible. If you truly seek knowledge, than please check out this in-depth Bible study.

http://www.biblestudysite.com/creation.htm (http://www.biblestudysite.com/creation.htm)

God certainly doesn't condone incest; it's satans lies that perpetrate this disinformation. The plan to subvert Gods true word is working pretty well unfortunately.

[Brother_Amos]

I would agree especially when all the Arabs who embrace the word of god go off and sacrifice a sheep because their version of the good book asks them to!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGLXFUQ5iUA

[Moon_Beam]

That is blind faith.
You see it that way, just as I see it blind to not consider the possibility that there is something bigger out there.

I'm happy to admit that no one can be certain until we die and found out for ourselves. But yet there are so many people who are still so sure that they are the only ones here and will not admit that we cannot know for sure.

[themnax]

what is wrong is that narrowness of perception in a much wider universe then we can ever begin to realize.

its a way of lying to ourselves. not about what can be, but that we think we know what can and can't.

=^^=
.../\...

[Brother_Amos]

If heaven is full of all the arseholes that have been running this place for the last 600 years I would rather burn in hell.

You say its not about sides, but lucifer sat on gods left, he argued about the creation of man, which is why he was cast down!

[Brother_Amos]

Of course terrorists will be in heaven, they all seem to think their going their as well, what a fucking party, Jeffery Dalmer, Charles Manson, you did naughty things but hey I forgive you and embrace you with open arms.. Bollocks! Hey their lucifier my brother, have you got room for one more!

You can tempt me with loads of money, nude girls and a porsche I really wont mind.

Have a read through Liber Logaeth Satan's Bible and while your at it have a read through the Necronomicon, if its a sin to so much as read them, well I know who gets my vote!

A lake of fire, how do we know its a lake of fire, oh because the bible tells us so!

[Brother_Amos]

This is virtually identical to the Jewish tradition of the Nephilim (the giants of Genesis 6.2 - 6.5). The word literally means "the Fallen Ones" and is derived from the Hebrew verb root naphal, to fall. The story in Genesis is only a fragment of a larger tradition, another piece of which can be found in the apocryphal Book of Enoch. According to this source, a group of angels sent to watch over the Earth saw the daughters of men and lusted after them. Unwilling to act individually, they swore an oath and bound themselves together, and two hundred of these "Watchers" descended to earth and took themselves wives. Their wives bore giant offspring. The giants turned against nature and began to "sin against birds and beasts and reptiles and fish, and to devour one another's flesh, and drink the blood". The fallen angels taught how to make weapons of war, and jewellery, and cosmetics, and enchantments, and astrology, and other secrets.

These separate legends are elaborated in later Jewish sources such as the Talmud, which make it clear that Enoch and Genesis refer to the same tradition. The great flood of Genesis was a direct response to the evil caused by humankind's commerce with fallen angels. The fallen angels were cast out and bound:

"And I proceeded to where things were chaotic. And I saw something horrible: I saw neither a heaven above nor a firmly founded earth, but a place chaotic and horrible. And there I saw seven stars of the heaven bound together in it, like great mountains, and burning with fire. Then I said: 'For what sin have they been bound, and on what account have they been cast in hither?' Then said Uriel, one of the holy angels who was with me, and was chief over them and said: 'Enoch, why dost thou ask, and why art thou eager for the truth? These are the number of the stars of heaven which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord, and are bound here till ten thousand years, the time entailed by their sins, are consummated.'"

[Brother_Amos]

It is abundantly clear that Alhazred elaborated upon existing traditions of the "Old Ones", and he did not invent these traditions. According to Alhazred, the Old Ones were beings from "beyond the spheres", presumably the spheres of the planets, and in the cosmography of that period this would imply the region of the fixed stars or beyond. They were superhuman and extrahuman. They mated with humans and begat monstrous offspring. They passed forbidden knowledge to humankind. They were forever seeking a channel into our plane of existence.

Arab traditions hold that the Jinn or Djinn were a race of superhuman beings which existed before the creation of humankind. The Djinn were created from fire. Some traditions make them a lesser race than human beings, but folk-tales invariably endowed them with unlimited magical powers, and the Djinn survive to this day as the genies of the Arabian Nights and Disney's Aladdin. Islam has subordinated the Djinn to the Koran, and like elves and fairies they have lost their dark and extremely sinister qualities with the passage of time. In Alhazred's time the older and darker traditions of the Djinn were still current, and Arab magicians ("muqarribun") would attempt to gain forbidden knowledge and power through commerce with the Djinn.

"And why? It repenteth me that I have made Man."

This is identical to the sentiment of Genesis 6.6 where it states "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart". This verse immediately follows the verses which describe the evil done by the Nephilim and the resulting sinfulness of the world, and it is followed by God's decision to wipe out all the life on earth with a great flood. Aleister Crowley, using his immense knowledge of the Bible, recognized the Call of the Thirty Aethyrs for what it was: God's curse on the Nephilim and the evil they had caused. It was this curse which cast them out of the earth and consigned them to the Abyss.

[Brother_Amos]

So we're all going to burn in a lake of fire because Lucifer got a stiffy.. Pretty Funny!

God "Lucifer my son how art thou, wait what is that in your pants?"

Lucifer "Nothing father just a bit of a... (mumble)

God "What is it, I command you to speak!"

Lucifer "A lob on, ok, I've got a hard on, you got a problem with that?"

By all accounts he did indeed have a problem with it!

[Brother_Amos]

I would submit that if an angel is not above lust, then neither is a god, lusting at his own heart for his own creation.

We where cursed the moment we bit in the forbidden apple, the fruit of knowledge right, why would god want us to live without knowledge of something?

I agree their will indeed be a second coming, but its not the one the bible is telling us about.

Idiots with no grasp of science would fall on their knees and worship a lightbulb, if they'd never seen one before!

http://allsp.com/l.php?id=e150

People need to accept their is no great and glorious kingdom of heaven, except the one you see when you look up at the night sky.

[Brother_Amos]

I for one know that the islamic's refuse to even believe their is such a thing as original sin, so theirs something we can all rub in their face, I bet the idea that they've been fucking each other would be pretty abhorrent to them. Serves them right for taking bits of other faiths and sticking it into their own holy book.

[Bl4ck3n3D]

You see it that way, just as I see it blind to not consider the possibility that there is something bigger out there.

I'm happy to admit that no one can be certain until we die and found out for ourselves. But yet there are so many people who are still so sure that they are the only ones here and will not admit that we cannot know for sure.

Why wait till you die?

Why not try and seek out knowledge and the truth now, with this life?

[stev90]

There is no "side".

As long as you see one, you'll not know God.


x
If there is no "side", then why did you have to offer an explanation on the matter, which I assume constitutes your viewpoint, or rather, your side of the story.

Also, if you say, that "as long as you see one, you'll not know God", how do you explain those who preach and practice religion, the clergy, the faithful, the religious folks, the devotees, etc. does that mean, these people do not know God?

[xexon]

As most people only know one side, I have to do as the Romans do.

In this case, I speak the native tongue enough to transfer a message that there is something more. If I can present options to people, then they can make intelligent choices about their fate other than running the maze that was built for them.

As for the practicing clergy and faithful devotees. When does the practicing stop? When is faith no longer needed? When is maturity reached? When does the kingdom open?

Why not now?

Religions can help mold you for the journey ahead, but they have a hard time letting you fly off when you're ready to leave the nest. You've got to know when to jump. Quite frankly, the masses are nowhere near that level yet.

But humanity as a whole is maturing. Expect to the the number of jumpers rise in the years ahead.

To know God, has nothing to do with any religion. It's your birthright. And you'll get it when you're old enough as a soul.



x

[Moon_Beam]

Why wait till you die? Why not try and seek out knowledge and the truth now, with this life?
Ok you do that! I know in my heart that God is real, but I will only meet Him when I die. Isn't that the point of faith?

I know the truth, I know what I believe, I was saying that to people who are quick to judge without even thinking it may be true.

[FreakerSoup]

So atheists can't know but you can know? I don't think it works like that.

Faith is only what you want it to be. You want there to be a god and a heaven, so you tell yourself and everyone else that this is the case. Don't get me wrong, I would be overjoyed if this were to be true, I just am not able to talk myself into it.

[Moon_Beam]

So atheists can't know but you can know? I don't think it works like that.

Faith is only what you want it to be. You want there to be a god and a heaven, so you tell yourself and everyone else that this is the case. Don't get me wrong, I would be overjoyed if this were to be true, I just am not able to talk myself into it.
I believe - that is what religion is!!

But like I said I can only be absolutely certain when I die, that is what I am saying. People can believe what they like, but either way nothing can be proved right now. Why is that so hard to understand?

[stev90]

Ok you do that! I know in my heart that God is real, but I will only meet Him when I die. Isn't that the point of faith?



Uhm, if God is real, then God is everywhere, and present all the time, beyond space and time.

Why do you have to wait until you die?

[Moon_Beam]

Uhm, if God is real, then God is everywhere, and present all the time, beyond space and time.

Why do you have to wait until you die?
We really are just going round in circles aren't we?!

I believe in what I belive, you believe in what you believe. I know what my heart tells me, that is all I can go on. Atheists will never understand that and I am not going to try and make them, just as what you say will not make me feel any different.

[stev90]

We really are just going round in circles aren't we?!

I believe in what I belive, you believe in what you believe. I know what my heart tells me, that is all I can go on. Atheists will never understand that and I am not going to try and make them, just as what you say will not make me feel any different.
Or is it because, you have run out of logical arguments to present your point.

In that case, your position is not based on reason, but simply based on blind faith.

[Moon_Beam]

Or is it because, you have run out of logical arguments to present your point.

In that case, your position is not based on reason, but simply based on blind faith.
Maybe because you want me to get riled and argue with you!

Like I said I am happy in what I believe and besides why should it matter to you? Unless you have a problem in what you belive.

I would be happy to continue but this thread, as well as many others, just keeps going round and round the same things so it's pretty pointless.

[FreakerSoup]

I believe - that is what religion is!!

But like I said I can only be absolutely certain when I die, that is what I am saying. People can believe what they like, but either way nothing can be proved right now. Why is that so hard to understand?
That's not hard to understand, but that conflicts with this:

I know in my heart that God is real, but I will only meet Him when I die.
I know the truth, I know what I believe, I was saying that to people who are quick to judge without even thinking it may be true.

First, your heart is a muscle, and doesn't know anything. I think what you mean is that your emotions present a subjectively convincing argument for god.
Second, you don't know the truth, or that god is real. There is quite a distinction between "I know" and "I believe." I think that's where the misunderstanding came up.

I accept that there may be a god, but do not believe that to be the case.

Do you accept the possibility that your emotions are just emotions and there there is not nor was there ever a god, afterlife, devil, angels, or divine influence on our world at all?

[Moon_Beam]

That's not hard to understand, but that conflicts with this:

First, your heart is a muscle, and doesn't know anything. I think what you mean is that your emotions present a subjectively convincing argument for god.
Second, you don't know the truth, or that god is real. There is quite a distinction between "I know" and "I believe." I think that's where the misunderstanding came up.

I accept that there may be a god, but do not believe that to be the case.

Do you accept the possibility that your emotions are just emotions and there there is not nor was there ever a god, afterlife, devil, angels, or divine influence on our world at all?

Well what I believe is the truth to me. I believe in God and Jesus and so to me it is the truth. Are you going to tell me what I believe? Just as people who don't belive in God believe that that is the truth.

Secondly, are you serious with the heart? I'm pretty sure you know what I mean!

And thirdly, I am not speaking for others I am speaking for myself. Yes there is the possibility that God may not be what I think He is, but I feel that it is true. What I belive is really down to me, if my truth is Jesus so what?

[stev90]

There is no "side".

As long as you see one, you'll not know God.


x

Does that mean, that one who takes no sides, in any discussion about God, know God?

[stev90]

I would be happy to continue but this thread, as well as many others, just keeps going round and round the same things so it's pretty pointless.


I apologize, I didn't mean to rile you, but, I'm surprised you continue to participate in this discussion, if you consider it to be pointless.

[Moon_Beam]

I apologize, I didn't mean to rile you, but, I'm surprised you continue to participate in this discussion, if you consider it to be pointless.
Well to be fair, saying that I had run out of logical arguements tends to make people come back with an answer.

You haven't riled me, I just got the sense that's what you wanted! No worries:)

[DiscipleWanker1]

adam and eve were the first two humans created in the garden of eden.

the other races were created on a previous day of creation and had been in existance (whether you believe in 7 consecutive 24-hour periods of creation or 7 total days of creation, meaning day 1 .. time... day 2 ... time... so forth)

Adam was the first human created that would carry down the lineage of jesus christ, the first ruddy-complected human, meaning white person [ruddy complected people can show blushing].

but there were arabs , africans, asians, hispanic, before them.

[xexon]

Does that mean, that one who takes no sides, in any discussion about God, know God?

To know God is not an intellectual feat. It is a perception beyond the mind and it's dividing nature.

You see things as a whole, with lots of little manifestations of the whole, rather than lots of little manifestations with no clear connection between them. The latter is how most people operate. They can tie a few things together here and there, but are still unable to see the interconnectivity of all things.

One can have a magnifcent body, a quick and powerful mind, and still be a spiritual toddler. That last one is the diamond. The hardest of all to polish

Religions are like various grits used to shape this diamond. They won't get very far with it because they lack what is needed themselves. Another diamond. They can help you knock off the softer earthly dirt, but the diamond itself requires more. Diamond polishes facets on diamonds. Not sand. Not dirt. Diamond.

Thats why I insist on the need of a living master and have opposition to religious dogma based on books.



x

[SucculentFlower]

blessed be xexon

[FreakerSoup]

Well what I believe is the truth to me. I believe in God and Jesus and so to me it is the truth. Are you going to tell me what I believe? Just as people who don't belive in God believe that that is the truth.

Secondly, are you serious with the heart? I'm pretty sure you know what I mean!

And thirdly, I am not speaking for others I am speaking for myself. Yes there is the possibility that God may not be what I think He is, but I feel that it is true. What I belive is really down to me, if my truth is Jesus so what?

Do you believe truth can be subjective? I do not, and am very reluctant to say that I KNOW much of anything. Everything is a belief of one kind or another, but the difference is the basis of that belief. It can be logical and rational, or it can be emotional. Maybe there are other as well, I don't know. Only you know what you believe, but that's very different from what you know.

Yes I'm serious. I know what you meant for sure, but your wording seems to indicate that your belief is just a product of your mind trying to interpret your emotions, as I think it often is.

Your beliefs are your own. I don't mean to attack your beliefs. Just question them. No offense intended.

[Moon_Beam]

Do you believe truth can be subjective? I do not, and am very reluctant to say that I KNOW much of anything. Everything is a belief of one kind or another, but the difference is the basis of that belief. It can be logical and rational, or it can be emotional. Maybe there are other as well, I don't know. Only you know what you believe, but that's very different from what you know.

Yes I'm serious. I know what you meant for sure, but your wording seems to indicate that your belief is just a product of your mind trying to interpret your emotions, as I think it often is.

Your beliefs are your own. I don't mean to attack your beliefs. Just question them. No offense intended.
If my belief in God is my truth, then yes. If you don't believe in God then that is all you know, that doesn't mean you are right. Which is what I have been saying all along.

You make it sound as if I, or Christians in general, don't actually think about what they believe but that they just believe in something becasue they have been told to from an early age or whatever, well that may be true in some cases, but people that I know actually question their beliefs, even vicars I know question it at times. It may not be known in the wider sense of the world to be true, but to so many people, who believe in God - they know to them that it is true, that is what makes faith what it is, that if you believe something it is real to you.

Maybe you are sure that God doesn't exist and that is real to you?

[stev90]

Adam was the first human created that would carry down the lineage of jesus christ, the first ruddy-complected human, meaning white person [ruddy complected people can show blushing].



No kidding.
Even Charles Manson claimed he was Jesus Christ. :leaving:

http://www.420amsterdam.com/manson.jpg

[stev90]

You see things as a whole, with lots of little manifestations of the whole, rather than lots of little manifestations with no clear connection between them.



Well, how do you know that what you see/perceive "as a whole, with lots of little manifestations of the whole" is indeed God, and not something else.

Perhaps, a product of your imagination.

[stev90]

If my belief in God is my truth, then yes. If you don't believe in God then that is all you know, that doesn't mean you are right.



I hate to be blunt about this, but what makes you think that only you and those who share your viewpoint is privy to what is and what is not truth?

Do you have a direct line with God?

[stev90]

Religions are like various grits used to shape this diamond. They won't get very far with it because they lack what is needed themselves. Another diamond.



Agreed.
Religions don't get very far and in many cases, is actually detrimental to the ill equipped seeker, or those without proper guidance.

Like a drug, many are hooked to religion, justify their addiction, one way or the other. Others, are even in denial.

With regards to what you say diamonds, these seem to end up being another form of religion, another drug for denial and self-deception, another tool to gain control of the brainwashed masses. So, the cycle goes on.

[Moon_Beam]

I hate to be blunt about this, but what makes you think that only you and those who share your viewpoint is privy to what is and what is not truth?

Do you have a direct line with God?
Why are people finding this so difficult? I said it is MY truth, it may not be yours - you probably have a whole different idea about what the truth is. I am entitled to believe what I want, just as you are. And what I believe, I believe - is that ok? Or must I agree with what you want?

[FreakerSoup]

What you are missing, moonbeam, is the difference between belief and knowledge, truth and hypothesis, etc. There is no YOUR truth. What is true is true, and that's all there is to it. If you think the Rolling Stones are the best, and I think the Kinks are, we don't have different TRUTHS, just opinions. Truth and opinion.

Just wording, methinks.

[xexon]

Well, how do you know that what you see/perceive "as a whole, with lots of little manifestations of the whole" is indeed God, and not something else.

Perhaps, a product of your imagination.



There is nothing else. Only God.

All of creation is molded from this same clay.

Imagination. Imagination is not the same as perception. I look, then attempt to explain what I see. I don't make things up and then write them down.




x

[Moon_Beam]

What you are missing, moonbeam, is the difference between belief and knowledge, truth and hypothesis, etc. There is no YOUR truth. What is true is true, and that's all there is to it. If you think the Rolling Stones are the best, and I think the Kinks are, we don't have different TRUTHS, just opinions. Truth and opinion.

Just wording, methinks.
That's what you are missing. If you believe something such as a religion , that is what is true. Otherwise there would be no need to believe.

You can't compare bands to God. That isn't how it works.

There is individual truth yes, in most things, not just religion. Some people just don't want to accept even the possibility that there is something bigger out there, so decide to hide from the truth. So they mostly will say that God is not true! It works both ways, you can't make truth an athesist tool!

If there were only opinions, life would get nowhere. I know my truth - you can't say I don't because you are not me. Nothing will change that.

Or in otherwords...... in my opinion it is my truth.

[Okiefreak]

Moonbeam has a point. The problem is Ultimate Truth is currently incomprehensible. Kant convinced most of us long ago that reality and what we perceive reality to be with our limited senses are two different things. Then came relativity theory and quantum theory. The consensus of experts on the latter is that if you think you understand it, you don't know what you're talking about. But it works! And to integrate these two partial theories, we have superstring theory, which hasn't been and maybe never will be empirically tested, positing an indescribable Whatsit of vibrating filaments in multiple dimensions that is the source of matter, energy, space and time. And that is science? So what's a poor okie to do? The best that I can, flying by the seat of my pants, with the aid of obviously limited facts and logic supplemented by intuitive risktaking, aka "faith". There ultimately may be only one truth, but since we don't know what it is, I opt for the pragmatic approach of William James: truth is what works--for each of us.

[stev90]

I am entitled to believe what I want, just as you are.



Beliefs need to be examined, and if found to be lacking and without basis, these "beliefs" need to be repudiated, otherwise, it can cause a lot of trouble.

For example, if you believe that the earth is flat, you need to re-think your belief in light of scientific evidence to the contrary. Otherwise, you might find air travel to be quite difficult. :)

[Moon_Beam]

Beliefs need to be examined, and if found to be lacking and without basis, these "beliefs" need to be repudiated, otherwise, it can cause a lot of trouble
I agree. But how are you planning to prove/ disprove the existance of God?

Isn't that what a faith is?

[stev90]

I agree. But how are you planning to prove/ disprove the existance of God?

Isn't that what a faith is?

What need to be disproved is "faith" based on blind faith alone.

For example, I have faith that I will get paid my paycheck this weekend, because, there is hard evidence (I put in the hours), it is reproducible ( I have been paid consistently before) etc.

Faith that rain will come, simply because you prayed for rain is "faith" based on blind faith. Or, that you will be saved, whatever that means, or that Heaven awaits you, simply because that's what you've been told, amounts to nothing more than hearsay.

[Moon_Beam]

What need to be disproved is "faith" based on blind faith alone.

For example, I have faith that I will get paid my paycheck this weekend, because, there is hard evidence (I put in the hours), it is reproducible ( I have been paid consistently before) etc.

Faith that rain will come, simply because you prayed for rain is "faith" based on blind faith. Or, that you will be saved, whatever that means, or that Heaven awaits you, simply because that's what you've been told, amounts to nothing more than hearsay.
Were you ever a Christian?

It isn't blind faith, prayer is a very strong thing.

You didn't really answer mu question, you say that "blind faith" should be disproved - how?

Again it appears that you are saying atheism is the only thing that is right?

[stev90]

It isn't blind faith, prayer is a very strong thing.


Perhaps, but even stupidity is a very strong thing.
Please don't take this personally, I think, you're a kind hearted person, but the problem is that there are many, many stupid people who blindly follow all sorts of religions.

Going back to what you mentioned about prayer.
Whom do you pray to?

[Moon_Beam]

Perhaps, but even stupidity is a very strong thing.
Please don't take this personally, I think, you're a kind hearted person, but the problem is that there are many, many stupid people who blindly follow all sorts of religions.

Going back to what you mentioned about prayer.
Whom do you pray to?
How do you mean stupidity in this context?

I don't think that believing in a God is stupid? Think it is wise to look into it for yourse;lf and find out more and question everything, but if you come back with the same conclusion then it isn't stupid.

[FreakerSoup]

Moonbeam has a point. The problem is Ultimate Truth is currently incomprehensible. Kant convinced most of us long ago that reality and what we perceive reality to be with our limited senses are two different things. Then came relativity theory and quantum theory. The consensus of experts on the latter is that if you think you understand it, you don't know what you're talking about. But it works! And to integrate these two partial theories, we have superstring theory, which hasn't been and maybe never will be empirically tested, positing an indescribable Whatsit of vibrating filaments in multiple dimensions that is the source of matter, energy, space and time. And that is science? So what's a poor okie to do? The best that I can, flying by the seat of my pants, with the aid of obviously limited facts and logic supplemented by intuitive risktaking, aka "faith". There ultimately may be only one truth, but since we don't know what it is, I opt for the pragmatic approach of William James: truth is what works--for each of us.
Ok, but all you are doing is changing the definition of truth. They are two different concepts, and I really think it devalues both of them to use the same word.

Moonbeam - Who is prayer powerful for? http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html

I suppose it might have some beneficial effect on the person doing the praying, but I think it is more ritual than anything else.

The reason belief in god is blind faith is that there no evidence that he exists. Of course you can't prove a universal negative (e.g. that god doesn't exist), so the burden of evidence must rest on those claiming that he does. All an atheist can do to argue their views is to point out how religious evidence is faulty, misused, or easily explainable by natural processes.

[Moon_Beam]

Moonbeam - Who is prayer powerful for? http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html

I suppose it might have some beneficial effect on the person doing the praying, but I think it is more ritual than anything else.

The reason belief in god is blind faith is that there no evidence that he exists. Of course you can't prove a universal negative (e.g. that god doesn't exist), so the burden of evidence must rest on those claiming that he does. All an atheist can do to argue their views is to point out how religious evidence is faulty, misused, or easily explainable by natural processes.

Prayer is powerful, for yourself and for others. Have you ever tried it? Or are you just dsaying this because you don't believe in God?



There is no evidence that He doesn't either. SO you can't say that your eay is any better. It is just as blind to not consider a God.

[stev90]

There is nothing else. Only God.

All of creation is molded from this same clay.

Imagination. Imagination is not the same as perception. I look, then attempt to explain what I see. I don't make things up and then write them down.




xTry this.
Do us a favor. Get a scalpel, take your brain out, then come back and tell us everything else that you perceive.

:)

[FreakerSoup]

Prayer is powerful, for yourself and for others. Have you ever tried it? Or are you just dsaying this because you don't believe in God?



There is no evidence that He doesn't either. SO you can't say that your eay is any better. It is just as blind to not consider a God.
How much of my post did you read? In the study done on the power of prayer, it was shown that prayer was ineffective in a healing situation. Completely. Not like "Oh, there was a slight correlation, but not enough to be noteworthy." It didn't do anything. If anything, people that were told they were being prayed for did worse.
And yes, I have done it. It was not a life-altering (or notable) experience.

I told you that you can't prove a negative. There is a good deal of evidence that specific gods don't exist, usually in the form of logical fallacies or mistakes, outlandish myths, etc., but no, we can't know for sure that there is no higher power. It should be obvious by now that I certainly DO consider the possibility that there is a god, as should any logical atheist. I also DO believe that my way is better, or I wouldn't choose it. If you want to have a discussion like that, we can do that.

But I don't center my life and beliefs around my atheism.

[stev90]

Were you ever a Christian?

I was born a Christian.
Actually, I have tried them all, Taoism, Buddhism, even Hinduism.

My conclusion, religion is a drug. Religion is the opium of the masses. Not only is religion a drug, but even to some, religion is cyanide (poison). :leaving:

Religion is a tool to control people. All religions are just cults of various degrees.

[burnabowl]

I can presently conceive a few reasons why religion exists:

God revealed himself to man in reality, and the man passed on the experience, and in turn others sought god and literally found him, or god preemptively revealed himself to others.

God revealed himself once to humankind, and others used the experience as a precedent to site their own, hallucinated or otherwise, communications with god.

God never revealed himself, but gave man a powerful and convincing mind to feel his reality without ever seeing him.

A. God never existed, but energy and matter did, resulting in a complex and overwhelming advanced consciousness in humans.

'a' is true, and people invented religion to cope with the hardships of mortality

'a' is true, and people invented religion in an effort to feel more blessed and special than rich people who opressed them

'a' is true and people formed religion simply to make some sense of the complex universe that surrounds them

'a' is true, and religion was formed by a worthy attempt to define a code of ethics for a given population, since common folk weren't educated enough to come to their own moral code.

and so on...

What I mostly want to get across is the unmitigated power of persuasion that the human mind possesses, at least to the person in whom it dwells. It's all a person knows; you might even say the human mind is god, since it dictates all that we do and all our allegiances. Whether our minds were gift from god or a fluke of nature, they have divine attributes. And with them not only came advanced awareness, but advanced and complicated emotions. It is our divine calling to understand, manage, clarify, and contain emotions.

Emotions tend to dictate our morals, and emotions are often partially a product of a culture or a generation. It is easy to say that our prophetic ancestors knew what was up, but they aren't here to tell us that what they believed is something they knew firsthand, something they assumed, or something involving the responsibility deferred to them by even earlier generations. Uncertainty is one of the toughest emotions to feel. We want to be certain of things, so it makes it easier to believe that our ancestors were certain, so we can be too. Truth is, they were just as clueless as we are.

Do I think religion can be used for good? sure. Do I think it is necessary? not if a person is able to construct a viable system of ethics on their own, based on what they know and how content their code makes them and those around them. The best way to do that is to be tolerant, broad-minded, and educated in all things. I think that was one thing those guys were trying to get across with the talk about "taking sides." Taking sides creates unneccessary enemies, and having enemies limits your tolerance levels, which are needed for true spiritual communion. It is our insistence on "knowing" that creates these dichotomies. No one knows or will ever know, but let's all try to figure it out together anyway. Pursuing the unknown is great for cultivating tolerance, as long as you don't come to quick conclusions. Pursuing what is supposedly 'known' and feeling certain with spiritual truth can be an enemy to collective good.

moon_beam said something about how most faithful people question and doubt their faith sometimes. Probably, but it doesn't do them any good, since they're working backwards from the notion that they can know something with certainty. It's good to question spiritual matters as long as you keep it open-ended.

Moonbeam, you also said that atheists believe what they believe and christains believe what they believe. A key difference is that agnostics/atheists don't flatter themselves into thinking they are capable of reserving the right to believe something. The truth-seeking ones realize that all they really know is that their mind arose from organic material. And since organic and living material is so infinitely complex, we should try to understand their nature itself, rather than the nature of a supposed being that created them. So I'm saying that a lot of religious people assume that their minds are simple, humble, created by god, and point them toward simple truths, rather than understand that the mind is totally ineffable and mysterious, so why use it to understand something even more complex, like an eternal god?

stev90 said something about how religion is a form of addiction, and when the belief is threatened, the mind works hard to justify to the believer that he's on the true course. That is a very good point because the same thing happens with a chemical addiction. When the mind is told it's an addict, it provides a very convincing argument that it is correct since it doesn't want its comfortable chemical habit to be abated.

With this post I really tried to remain as nonpartisan as I could. if anyone's offended, it wasn't meant that way. Like moonbeam said, I can only speak the truth that I can readily perceive. But I've been on both "sides" of the debate. I even went on a two year religious mission, asserting to others that I 'knew' a truth. I always reserved my objectivity in the back of my mind, though.

PS I also like the comment from someone about how we shouldn't assume that there's a whole and that the glimpses we see are manifestations of that whole, but rather try to put together all the clues we can discern and seek to understand the great whole.

[xexon]

Try this.
Do us a favor. Get a scalpel, take your brain out, then come back and tell us everything else that you perceive.

:)


If I get out of my car, I can still see.

If I get out of my body...guess what?


x

[hippie_chick666]

I was born a Christian.
Actually, I have tried them all, Taoism, Buddhism, even Hinduism.

My conclusion, religion is a drug. Religion is the opium of the masses. Not only is religion a drug, but even to some, religion is cyanide (poison). :leaving:

Religion is a tool to control people. All religions are just cults of various degrees.No offense, but I don't think you "try" Taoism- by trying you are only getting farther away. Buddhism is similar, you just are. By seeking enlightenment, you stray farther away. This is a point I think you are missing about both "religions."

Peace and love

[Okiefreak]

.misfeed.

[Michael Savage]

Evidence for the power of prayer, or "meditation": http://www.alltm.org/pages/crime-arrested.html

[stev90]

No offense, but I don't think you "try" Taoism- by trying you are only getting farther away. Buddhism is similar, you just are. By seeking enlightenment, you stray farther away. This is a point I think you are missing about both "religions."

Peace and loveReally.

So, you mean people were "Taoist" or "Buddhist" even before they could walk, think and talk.

Then, why did they bother defining themselves as such, as opposed to Christian, Muslim or Hindu later on?

By defining themselves as such, and conforming according to what a certain tradition requires, i.e. The Four Noble Truths, The Noble Eightfold Path, (Buddhism), etc, they were seeking something, following a path.

Following a path, is seeking. A path, like a map, leads to a goal.
Using a map, a path, to reach a goal is a process of seeking.


When you state that, "seeking enlightenment, you stray further away",
you're statement suggests that the Dalai Lama, and other practicing Buddhists, have actually strayed further away from enlightenment. :)

[Okiefreak]

The reason belief in god is blind faith is that there no evidence that he exists. Of course you can't prove a universal negative (e.g. that god doesn't exist), so the burden of evidence must rest on those claiming that he does. All an atheist can do to argue their views is to point out how religious evidence is faulty, misused, or easily explainable by natural processes. What do you mean by evidence and proof? Will only direct observation do? Not even criminal trials are that strict. People have gone to death row on the basis of circumstantial evidence, and in government administrative hearings even hearsay is allowed, and evaluated according to the decision maker's judgments about its probative value under given circumstances. What level of proof is required? Scientific proof, courtroom proof, administrative-level proof (substantial evidence, probable cause)?
I think there is substantial circumstantial and hearsay evidence supporting a HIP (Higher Intelligent Power), even though it is inconclusive--enough for a reasonable person to bet on.

Placing the burden of proof on those making an assertion or supporting an extraordinary claim is a reasonable policy, but that's all it is--a policy. And saying that something is "easily explainable by natural processes" doesn't necessarily settle matters either. For example, Catholic evolutionary biologist Kenneth Miller and Evangelical geneticist Francis Collins argue that the universe is fine-tuned to create a high probability of intelligent life capable of knowing God. They base their conclusion on natural processes. Dawkins provides alternative explanations of sorts: some as yet undiscovered cohesive force could account for the fine tuning, or it could be unfinely tuned in other parallel universe(s) as yet discovered. Are these alternatives more plausible? Collins invokes Occam's reazor to say "No". (I think they're just as plausible, so the contest must be resolved by other considerations.)

I think many atheists approach the question of God as though it were a scientific research hypotheses. Yet in everyday life, we have to make decisions on the basis of incomplete evidence. What person to date or marry, what college to go to, what job to take, who to vote for, etc. If we waited for scientific proof, we'd be dead--and able to confirm the existence of an afterlife by personal experience. Besides, setting up a suitable experiment would be difficult or impossible, apart from the fact that no funding source I know of is backing this kind of research. I go on the basis of the best evidence available, and evaluate it on the basis of my best judgment, based on reason and experience, take a chance, and hope it works out. That's how I approach religion. "Faith", as Luther defined it, is a "joyful bet." And it won't matter who anyone thinks should carry the burden of proof. The proof is in the pudding.

Of course, my religious views are "opinion", not truth, but hopefully they're informed opinions. I agree that people can't expect to go around believing anything they choose and be respected for their "faith". I'm sure there are plenty of people on this Forum who believe in Tarot cards, astrology, and maybe even sympathetic magic, but I'm skeptical, because they really do seem to be at odds with science and reason. I think faith should be used as a last resort, and should never be used to trump logic and science.

[Moon_Beam]

How much of my post did you read? In the study done on the power of prayer, it was shown that prayer was ineffective in a healing situation. Completely. Not like "Oh, there was a slight correlation, but not enough to be noteworthy." It didn't do anything. If anything, people that were told they were being prayed for did worse.
And yes, I have done it. It was not a life-altering (or notable) experience.
One article in a paper does not represent everyone praying around the world. What about all the people who do do pray for others or have been prayed for by others and have found it to change things? You could say it is just coincedence, but for everything? I highly doubt it. I have prayed for things and things have really changed because of it.

How can praying about someone make them worse?? I mean it is almost like a wish (except prayer is directed towards someone) and wishing for someone to get well will not have a detrimental effect.

[stev90]

For example, Catholic evolutionary biologist Kenneth Miller and Evangelical geneticist Francis Collins argue that the universe is fine-tuned to create a high probability of intelligent life capable of knowing God.


Uhm, what does a fine-tuned universe and intelligent life have anything to do with a God?

For example, even a fined-tuned universe and intelligent life is capable of producing disasters, cluster-fuckups, monsters and stupid people.

So much for a fine tuned universe, intelligence and what you call God.

It is said that God made man in His image.
Therefore, if man is dumb, then, God is dumb and a little ugly on the side.

[Moon_Beam]

It is said that God made man in His image.
Therefore, if man is dumb, then, God is dumb and a little ugly on the side.

Yes, He made us in His image, He gave us the power and ability to do the best we can with ourselves. I have mentioned this before somewhere, that just because one person many not be as intelligent as the other, it doesn't mean that they don't have skills in other areas!

If you run out of logical arguement, please don't use it as an excuse to mock.

[stev90]

...just because one person many not be as intelligent as the other, it doesn't mean that they don't have skills in other areas!


Well, of course. For example, a stupid Muslim Jihadist who proclaims the righteousness of his religion and his "love" of his God, uses his skill in other areas by blowing his stupid brain out, along with a couple hundred innocent bystanders.

This stupidity is not confined to the adherents of one faith alone, but is observed in other religions as well, including Christianity.

Calling out the stupidity of Muslim jihadist is not mocking.
On the other hand, those who defend religious institutions, organized religions that breed and promote these kinds of behaviour, are the ones who mock the very ideals that they pretend to uphold.

[Moon_Beam]

Well, of course. For example, a stupid Muslim Jihadist who proclaims the righteousness of his religion and his "love" of his God, uses his skill in other areas by blowing his stupid brain out, along with a couple hundred innocent bystanders.

This stupidity is not confined to the adherents of one faith alone, but is observed in other religions as well, including Christianity.
That I understand but you said nothing about this in the previous post, you said dumb - which is taken to mean intelligence! So, saying that if people are dumb it's because God is dumb. Which He clearly isn't as He created everything.

There are extremists everywhere, even outside of religion - animal rights for example. Just because they exist doesn't mean they represent the majority of a religion. I have never met anyone who spoke badly about anyone, or hated someone for not believing what they did. I haven't met everyone, but in my opinion it would be stupid to say that all religious people are stupid and evil based on a minority. But that's what ends up happening - it always comes back to people thinking they are better or more intelligent that people of faith - and that clearly is not the case.

[stev90]

So, saying that if people are dumb it's because God is dumb. Which He clearly isn't as He created everything.


Indeed, if He created everything, He created dumbness and evil...
If as you say, "He is everything" then He is both dumbness and evil.

You're words not mine. :)

[Moon_Beam]

Indeed, if He created everything, He created dumbness and evil...
If as you say, "He is everything" then He is both dumbness and evil.

You're words not mine. :)
You clearly don't know the Bible or indeed anything about the Christian faith. It is the same old atheist attempt to prove themselves right and that they are better! Not falling for it!

[stev90]

You clearly don't know the Bible or indeed anything about the Christian faith.

But perhaps, I beg to defer to someone else who was more knowledge of the Bible and Christianty and who was tied to the hip with the Catholic Church.


http://www.the-tribulation-network.com/dougkrieger/times_and_seasons/hitler_leaving_church.JPG

[Moon_Beam]

But perhaps, I beg to defer to someone else who was more knowledge of the Bible and Christianty and who was tied to the hip with the Catholic Church.


http://www.the-tribulation-network.com/dougkrieger/times_and_seasons/hitler_leaving_church.JPGWhat a surprise! How many times has someone brought up a picture of Hitler in this forum! Especially when they need to get out of a hole they dug themselves into.

So they good are just forgotten right - oh wait the good Christians/ Muslims etc wouldn't make sense to atheists would they?

[stev90]

oh wait the good Christians/ Muslims etc wouldn't make sense to atheists would they?



Oh, you mean, sheeple. ;)

[Moon_Beam]

Yeah, I think this thread is coming to an end!

[stev90]

http://novalight.org/Sheeple.jpg



Thanks to this drug or should I say, this poison called religion. It's these dumb Christian sheeple types who don't think for themselves, and their equally dumb counterparts, the Muslim fanatics, is why this world of ours nowadays is so fucked up.

[xexon]

Most of the conflict in today's world is engineered. It's not the picture of chaos that it appears. There are very specific goals behind it.

Religion, or rather the religious, are being used to further an agenda called the New World Order.

These people intend to break the back of civilization as we know it. They will use your beliefs against you to do the dirty work, a massive world war to decrease the world population of anyone who could stand against them. The followers of Islam.

The survivors of this war will be united under a one world government.


x

[BlackBillBlake]

http://novalight.org/Sheeple.jpg



Thanks to this drug or should I say, this poison called religion. It's these dumb Christian sheeple types who don't think for themselves, and their equally dumb counterparts, the Muslim fanatics, is why this world of ours nowadays is so fucked up.
So global pollution etc which is caused exclusively by industrial technology has nothing to do with the fucked up sate of the world? Or the greed and dishonesty of those who wield political power?

[BlackBillBlake]

Most of the conflict in today's world is engineered. It's not the picture of chaos that it appears. There are very specific goals behind it.

Religion, or rather the religious, are being used to further an agenda called the New World Order.

These people intend to break the back of civilization as we know it. They will use your beliefs against you to do the dirty work, a massive world war to decrease the world population of anyone who could stand against them. The followers of Islam.

The survivors of this war will be united under a one world government.


x
I think the world is abit bigger than the USA and the middle east.

The 'new world order' will very likely be dominated by China, whose poulation is neither christian nor muslim.

[FreakerSoup]

1. I think there is substantial circumstantial and hearsay evidence supporting a HIP (Higher Intelligent Power), even though it is inconclusive--enough for a reasonable person to bet on.

2. Placing the burden of proof on those making an assertion or supporting an extraordinary claim is a reasonable policy, but that's all it is--a policy. And saying that something is "easily explainable by natural processes" doesn't necessarily settle matters either.

3. I think many atheists approach the question of God as though it were a scientific research hypotheses. Yet in everyday life, we have to make decisions on the basis of incomplete evidence.

4. Of course, my religious views are "opinion", not truth, but hopefully they're informed opinions. I agree that people can't expect to go around believing anything they choose and be respected for their "faith". I'm sure there are plenty of people on this Forum who believe in Tarot cards, astrology, and maybe even sympathetic magic, but I'm skeptical, because they really do seem to be at odds with science and reason. I think faith should be used as a last resort, and should never be used to trump logic and science.
1. I have not seen it. Really, you can make evidence of any kind point to god if you try hard enough. But I don't think that is very convincing. Religion has been around a long time, and now we have advanced technology and detection devices for all sorts of things...shouldn't we have at least one rock-solid piece of evidence by now?

2. Yes, it's a policy, but if the burden of proof were on those trying to defend science and rationality, the world would be a strange place indeed. I don't mean to say that something being brought about by natural causes proves there god isn't involved, but it shows that god isn't necessary.

3. You may be right. But how else can we know? Isn't a person's religion of choice first and foremost a product of where they live? That's not because of genetic predisposition, it's because people pick up what they're raised on, familiar with, etc. They do not evaluate all the choices. I think if people did that, they would discover that they are all (or almost all) equally valid. I think that if were a god, and god were to be as described in the christian bible, then he wouldn't require blind faith. Blind faith is what you get from your upbringing, or when your disorganized and lousy way of life is suddenly made better by an organization like the church. If god were really to say "worship me or perish," he would give us some reason to do so other than our upbringing and a vague feeling that there might be something bigger out there.

4. An admirable stance.

[FreakerSoup]

One article in a paper does not represent everyone praying around the world. What about all the people who do do pray for others or have been prayed for by others and have found it to change things? You could say it is just coincedence, but for everything? I highly doubt it. I have prayed for things and things have really changed because of it.

How can praying about someone make them worse?? I mean it is almost like a wish (except prayer is directed towards someone) and wishing for someone to get well will not have a detrimental effect.

This isn't one article in a paper. It is a large-scale, long-term, peer-reviewed study in a scientific journal. You would think that on that level, there would be SOME correlation if prayer were powerful. Read the article. It's interesting.

Yes, I think that when you pray, and what you pray for comes to be, it is coincidence. When that doesn't happen, you may pass it off as "oh, the lord had other plans" or "I wasn't doing it quite right or quite strong enough." That's how superstitious beliefs are built. If you give a pigeon a reward at random intervals, it will find some behavior that it thinks is causing that reward. When it does its thing and is rewarded, it is smug and satisfied at a job well done. When it does its thing and isn't, it thinks "well, I did it a little differently before," and it'll try variations until that reward comes. Eventually, you can have pigeons hopping on one foot and flapping their wings around because they think that it will get them a reward.

You have prayed for things and things have changed. Why do you think that it wouldn't have happened otherwise? How many times have you prayed and not gotten what you wanted?

And no, praying for people did not make them worse. The groups were randomly chosen, and one group turned out to be worse off. The prayers they received did not help them. Both when they knew they were being prayed for and when they didn't, they didn't do as well as those who weren't prayed for.

[Okiefreak]

1. I have not seen it. Really, you can make evidence of any kind point to god if you try hard enough. But I don't think that is very convincing. Religion has been around a long time, and now we have advanced technology and detection devices for all sorts of things...shouldn't we have at least one rock-solid piece of evidence by now?You may be looking in the wrong places. Have you tried deep meditation?

I don't mean to say that something being brought about by natural causes proves there god isn't involved, but it shows that god isn't necessary. Necessary for what? At the moment, our only theory connecting relativity and quantum mechanics is Superstring, the source of all matter, energy, space and time. There is no empirical evidence for this, and not likely to be any in our lifetimes, but many scientists believe it because it's conceptually useful. Give this thing a mind, and you've got HIP.

3. You may be right. But how else can we know? We can't, for sure. If we accept evolutionary theory, there's no reason to expect that a creature geared to survival and reproduction would be prepared to know the ultimate meaning of its existence or the Universe's. In that light, I think we've done amazingly well.
Isn't a person's religion of choice first and foremost a product of where they live? That's not because of genetic predisposition, it's because people pick up what they're raised on, familiar with, etc. They do not evaluate all the choices. I think if people did that, they would discover that they are all (or almost all) equally valid. Good point. Yes, I think that's right. I think of myself as a "Christian", because the example and teachings of Jesus seem particularly insightful, but I find similar truths in Hindu, Buddhist and even Muslim traditions, and if I were born in a country where those are the dominant religions, I'm sure I'd be using their labels. I am already close to thinking that they're equally valid, because they have a common core of similar truth--and that's the part I believe in anyway.
[QUOTE=FreakerSoup]If god were really to say "worship me or perish," he would give us some reason to do so other than our upbringing and a vague feeling that there might be something bigger out there. I agree, which is why I'm not a fundamentalist.

4. An admirable stance.

[Moon_Beam]

This isn't one article in a paper. It is a large-scale, long-term, peer-reviewed study in a scientific journal. You would think that on that level, there would be SOME correlation if prayer were powerful. Read the article. It's interesting
I have done much research, not only on religion, but I know what studies are of a good standard. I have looked into religion and healthcare and from what I found there are an abundance of papers showing the benefit - so again you are basing your opinion in one study - have a look for the many many more that are out there -have a look it's interesting! I have spent three years looking at journals and the like so I know what are good and what are not.

[FreakerSoup]

You may be looking in the wrong places. Have you tried deep meditation?Nope. What does that do for you?

Necessary for what? At the moment, our only theory connecting relativity and quantum mechanics is Superstring, the source of all matter, energy, space and time. There is no empirical evidence for this, and not likely to be any in our lifetimes, but many scientists believe it because it's conceptually useful. Give this thing a mind, and you've got HIP.
Necessary for something "miraculous" to happen. If there's a grease stain that looks like the virgin mary, people will line up to see it. A natural explanation is easy enough for a rational person to understand that while god may be giving us a sign, it's not necessary for him to be there for that to happen.

And a mind is a awfully big thing to attribute.

We can't, for sure. If we accept evolutionary theory, there's no reason to expect that a creature geared to survival and reproduction would be prepared to know the ultimate meaning of its existence or the Universe's. In that light, I think we've done amazingly well.
We can't for sure either way. What I'm arguing against is people that say they do know for sure. But if you're really trying to find things out, I think the scientific method is the best way to do it.

[FreakerSoup]

I have done much research, not only on religion, but I know what studies are of a good standard. I have looked into religion and healthcare and from what I found there are an abundance of papers showing the benefit - so again you are basing your opinion in one study - have a look for the many many more that are out there -have a look it's interesting! I have spent three years looking at journals and the like so I know what are good and what are not.
I would be interested to see your sources, and to hear what you think is suspect about this study. What journals did you look at? How did you decide which were good and which were not?

[Niagra]

Wow after page 4 I feel I must interject. I am really impressed with the knowledge that has come out in this thread so far. Really impressed. I also see different "levels" of faith/knowledge/belief and find it most interesting and also lends to the character of each poster. I think all of you thus far are people with whom I would be honored to call human. Thank you for that and your thoughts.

Before going on to read page 5, I would like to interject that each of us no matter what current idea you embrace, what religion you say you have or don't have, each of us inside us, have something we simply instinctively can not pretend away. It is, and always has been there. It is the very reason any of us have read this thread. To me, not to words from a book , or any knowledge from religious bullshit or gospel, from just me as a person, a human being .. to you, this "something" is the essence of our souls, our spirituality. Its reality can not be denied, not even to an atheist. Its there and you each know it. Starting with merely being a human being is perhaps a good place to start. So much of that is unreflected..

To me, it goes against human nature, to kill another human for example. Another example is that it makes no sense to me, that if there is a God, an he having created the wonderment of our human body, that he would have us spend most of our lives, denying the fact or repressing the parts of us which are of a sexual nature. Religion, mans views, holds us in bondage, of who we have been created to be. How can any of us truly understand the "something" that is inside us, when we so very often repress who we are created to be, who we are as human beings! These are merely 2 examples of a long list of examples I can think of. Please don't focus on these examples in rebuttal, as they truly are only examples, chosen specifically to aid you in recognizing the thought expressed here. The whole picture.

Common sense can go a long way in identifying something in which we place stock in. Any religion, that would kill people for GOD, is not of GOD. God created humans, if you believe in a GOD. Using merely common sense coupled with that "something" inside you that brought you here... think on only those two things, not what you have learned, but what you have already in you and always have, by the way.... tell me, God would have you kill for him?? If any religion by which you are following, believing in, standing up for ( which is very admirable), or telling your children is right, has now or in the past mentioned killing as favorable to GOD, it is time for you to look again, and I suggest you start with what you already have inside you. We all have it. And you know it. Start there, start with what you know is right as a human being. Created by God, or merely a an ameba, we all have been created, formed, established. Look first to that human part and that "something" inside you, with common sense.

You do not have to deny a religion at this point, but you do have to admit to self what you know. Go slow, easy on yourself, but you must go. Follow only what you know instinctively, humanly, spiritually, is correct.. and your journey will be as it should be. Utilize each human instinct in your search. This is who we are. I hope this helps us all. We need each other so much.

[Moon_Beam]

Wow, I didn't realise we had reached this number of pages!

[Niagra]

Oh I love this thread, wonderful concepts of thought, people disagreeing yet remaining respectful, yes this is a place for growth.

Moonbeam, you stand proudly and you stood valiantly fighting for what you believe in.
I just wanted you to know I noticed.

Several points need to be agreed on collectively .. and I think they are really. Truth and Religion can not be together.
Truth is fact
Religion is based on a belief in some principal or being that can not be proven tangibly.
Truth is proven tangibly.
However, a belief CAN be truth. You can not prove it, so don't try.

Zietgeist, a film, will open many eyes, and you only need to view the first 15 minutes. http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=22802

Clearly I think we all can agree here at least on this much.

There has been a discussion on the power of prayer. The idea behind power can be summoned up in this example of prayer as consciousness and measured in reality with quantum physics. When we have a group of people collectively, consciously, agreeing on one thought, as in prayer, it does have power to affect lives and even stop matter in motion, or change a previously achieved logical function. This is truth. Proven fact.
Many studies, sources, and science has indeed proven this.

Lets take this thing called Religion and place it aside for just a moment. Religion, can not get us collectively in agreement. Spirituality on the other hand is something we all can at least in theory stand together on.

What if "heaven" or spiritual reality is merely residing in a different dimension?

[stev90]

I think, retaining a sense of wonder and mystery can be a good thing.

When one is curious and wonders why things happen, and uses his mind to seek answers, that is when progress happens, knowledge is gained and hopefully something good and positive comes out of it.

For example, when some religious person prays and it does rain, such person is quick to claim the event as proof of an answer to his prayers and therefore, an act of some supernatural "god", when the event was merely a coming together of weather patterns that brought about the rain.

[Okiefreak]

Zietgeist, a film, will open many eyes, and you only need to view the first 15 minutes. http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=22802

Clearly I think we all can agree here at least on this much.

What if "heaven" or spiritual reality is merely residing in a different dimension?I like so much of what you've said in this and the foregoing post that I feel like a heel saying that I have real reservations about the accuracy of the Zeitgeist film, which I've expressed in previous threads. See p. 6 (at least that's what it is now), Christian Forum, Zeitgeist movie.

[Okiefreak]

I would be interested to see your sources, and to hear what you think is suspect about this study. What journals did you look at? How did you decide which were good and which were not?For studies showing positive results from intercessory prayer, see Randolpf Byrd's study in Southern Medical Journal (1988) and W.S. Harris et al, Archives of Internal Medicine (1999), 159; Larry Dossey, Healing Words; The Power of Prayer and the Practice of Medicine (1993). For critiques of such studies, see Stenger, Has Science Found God (2003), pp. 237-55;Flamm, Faith Healing Confronts Modern Medicine, Scientific Review of Alternative Medicine (2004). And, of course, the study you cited, Benson et al Harvard STEP project reported in American Heart Journal (2006).The investigators in the STEP study speculated that the complications experienced by the patients who knew they were being prayed for resulted from their heightened anxiety about being in such bad shape divine intervetion was necessary. What puzzles me is how supposedly rational scientists could believe they could study prayer under controlled circumstances. The Abrahamic God of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam wouldn't be likely to participate in such a study, and presumably God is the source of the power of prayer.

[stev90]

What puzzles me is how supposedly rational scientists could believe they could study prayer under controlled circumstances. The Abrahamic God of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam wouldn't be likely to participate in such a study, and presumably God is the source of the power of prayer.


Eh, no offense, but I don't buy these supposed "studies", no matter how carefully conducted, perhaps, they were done.

For every person in this world who got healed of a certain ailment because of the supposed power of "prayer", another person recovered without the need of prayer, let alone to a Christian god.

Sorry, but to me, these studies are essentially meaningless.

[Okiefreak]

Eh, no offense, but I don't buy these supposed "studies", no matter how carefully conducted, perhaps, they were done.

For every person in this world who got healed of a certain ailment because of the supposed power of "prayer", another person recovered without the need of prayer, let alone to a Christian god.

Sorry, but to me, these studies are essentially meaningless.Yes, they are. My point.

[Niagra]

Hi thank for your comments all of them.

For the record there is no claim made by me or the studies, to cure or heal. I did however say that there is power in the collective conscious thought of a group of people and even in that of just one person. My apologies for not including some info on these studies that came to mind. I know better than that. Sometimes when something is known to be fact for some time, I forget that others may not know that information. Again, I am sorry and let me see if I can't get a few of the ones that I can remember.

Quantum Physics: Very good and short. You will enjoy this. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4036547094214992850

Quantum Dimension (An extra thrown in for an FYI)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=390849738419231822

Collective Consciousness: http://www.heartmath.org/gcms/index.html

This next link is only 11 minutes long but I bit off topic in the first half. The 2nd half really will hit home and the entire 11 minutes is well worth a listen.
http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=1650365

I have more sources and science to add if you should require them. But please remember that if you simply and most profoundly look inside of yourself and remember to use common sense, forgetting inherited tradition and faith systems, you can see the truth of what is and always has been. "Something" brought us all to this place and to our need to believe in something. What if it is as the scientists and the spiritualists now believe has been proven? A field of energy, of consciousness, that we as human beings all share in common with each other and with the universe, even down to the sub atomic matter of an atom. Written into and apart of our very dna. The effect on life would surely be that of oneness. This makes every cell in my body tingle with delight. Hope it does you too.

I was talking with a friend of mine about you all, the people in this thread. I am so impressed that the topic of religion, the diverse belief systems witnessed here, and the various ages and genders of its participants, not only proved successful and remained in respect to each other, but also seems to have caused each person that participated to learn something from the others. That is very rare and very cool and very special. I am truly honored to be a part of it and to know you ... all of you.

Okie Freak, Wow, I gotta say, I am on my way to read about your reservations. If ever I hoped my research missed something, it would be in that of this movie. Talk about a reality check and a spiritual titanic at the same time lol I was left speechless. That my friends is very hard to do. I can tell you that I never would have offered up that movie had I not felt that all here could handle it. Its not something I am comfortable sharing with people because of its potential affect on foundations that take years to create. However, to be honest, those foundations are what is truly screwing us all up. So I look forward to your work. On my way now. Thanks for the compliments and please , I welcome your heel. Honest!!

[Niagra]

OkieFreak, I can't find it and you should have provided a link .. will you do so now so I can learn of the problems I could not find with the movie. Thanks

[Cairo]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/485268.stm

This article shows that there is no rational explanation for why being prayed for fared better than those who weren't.

[stev90]

Quantum Physics: Very good and short. You will enjoy this. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4036547094214992850

Quantum Dimension (An extra thrown in for an FYI)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=390849738419231822

Collective Consciousness: http://www.heartmath.org/gcms/index.html

This next link is only 11 minutes long but I bit off topic in the first half. The 2nd half really will hit home and the entire 11 minutes is well worth a listen.
http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=1650365


Good post. Thank you for sharing those videos.

I certainly prefer any article or explanation offered by quantum physics, or any branch of science more than what any of the "religious" folks have to offer, which is basically are nothing more than quackery, hearsay,
hearsay and superstition.

The videos on quantum physics were certainly interesting, however, not entirely convincing at this point due to certain technical matters, such as the credentials of the authors of the original video, validity and reproducibility of experiments conducted, sample size, lack of peer review, etc., etc.

For the life of me, I still cannot get the connection of why certain religious folks need to treat mysteries, solved and unsolved, somehow have to imply on a "God" a "collective consciousness" or whatever.

Yes, I agree, there are mysteries out there.

Perhaps, in time, some of these mysteries will be solved, explained and shed light on, while others still won't, but so what??

[Niagra]

Glad you enjoyed them Stev90. I wish to clear you up on one thing though, maybe two.

Quantum.. The slot experiment is very famous and proves time and time again, that the mere act of observing matter on a sub atomic level causes it to react in an unexpected and unpredictable manner. Meaning that it does indeed have its own energy field and an intelligence.

It also confirms the idea that has been around scientifically that all matter is ultimately apart of a field of energy .. all. We are all a part of this field , everything in this world and universe.

The 11 minute movie, talks of and also gives reference to verifiable data that people got together in strategic places around a war time country and collectively concentrated and felt in their hearts and minds about peace . What it felt like to live in peace. Doing so caused the entire region to Cease in gunfire etc, Not slow it but ceased it. This can be verified.

It also talks of a code in our own dna that is readable by several ancient civalizations alphabets. Our dna all coded to say the same readable phraze. The fact that that is actually truth boggles the mind and it says that whoever put this code into our dna and even that of plants etc. that someone or something put it there. It is deliberate. All of these links show that there is something bigger that links all life together on this planet. I know you can never obtain the proof you are looking for so stop looking in these threads. If you are so resolved to the fact that their is no God or whatever you want to call it , then move on and stop coming. It seems to me and I know I have hit a nerve here but that "something" I been talking about inside us all, is simply and most profoundly calling to you and you simply want what you can't get before you will listen. This is your life... your call.. But as for me... I am not going to deny something I have known in me all of my life. Its what guides me daily and if you ever dared to allow yourself to simply throw off your belief s learned from whatever source and listen just to it, to your sence of human being , you will surely be amazed where it leads you. I know it blows my mind.

I am not religious. Truth be told I literally loathe all religions. They are seriously evil institutions formed for profit of a few and to control the lives of others. To literally keep people from learning who they have been created to be. Oppressing people under laws made by men. Its evil and no one needs to look very far to see the blood on each and ever religious institution. Its so thick it wreaks. No God would seak to destroy that which he created for pleasure or in obediance. It goes against all forms of love that I have ever known.

However, I know and am hardlined into a spiritual reality and gain so much insight daily that is full of wonder and rocks my world very often. I yield myself to that "something" inside me and truly am amazed at what I learn simply by listening. I know from a physical first hand experience that there is something magical or spiritual out there and in me.

If I had not have had that one very real supernatural experience though, I know I would be someone struggling with the "something" inside me, but very unsure of what it is though. So I understand where many are. I mean lets face it, miracles are few and far between in this world these days. Corruption is every fucking where and human beings have lost the value of life. Seeing the face of God in times like these has to be a small miracle in and of itself. Every relion has lied and committed horrendous things. My gosh who can you trust when you can't trust a church. WTF is that??? So yeah I hear ya. But listen, I know how you feel .. but thats why its important to utilize brain capacity here. You know that "something" is there inside you.... You know it is. Stop with the doubt and grumbings and listen .. If not thats ok too. You miss out on learning so much .. but if your happy and content rock on. Just be happy .

Peace out!!
I think your cool and as is everyone I met so far. This place Rocks. I am here if you want to rap .. Any of you. OK?

Niagra

[xexon]

What is inside of you, is you.

The image of yourself painted by ego is just a representation of the true inner reality.

The human identity is just a mask, and the soul within, an actor on stage.

The true self sits in the audience and watches the show.


x

[stev90]

Yes, very interesting stuff and observations on quantum mechanics etc.

The problem is, most people do not think, nor do they seek to conduct their daily lives in terms of the principles of quantum mechanics.

Many are happy enough just to pay the rent, drink their Starbucks cafe latte, watch American Idol on tv, gossip about Britney Spears, and perhaps, do some Bible study on the side, just in case... http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Okiefreak]

OkieFreak, I can't find it and you should have provided a link .. will you do so now so I can learn of the problems I could not find with the movie. ThanksIf you're talking about my reference to the zeitgeist movie, it's on this site, in the Christianity forum. Go there, look at the box at the upper right corner where it says page 1 of 112, etc. Then click on p. 6. The Zietgeist movie topic will be about three quarters of the way down.

[Niagra]

lol .. You make me smile Steve90 .. hehe "just in case" that was funny and I hear ya.

xexon.. you were oine of the 2 I first noticed in this thread as having "it". I must say I am very surprised by your response above though. You know that is not true and I hope you don't by into that nonsense .. I mean this is not a dress rehersal and none of this is acting. This is our life and lives. At least the only one we get here I spose. I dunno. But you of all people are in touch with the "something" inside that has always been there that lets you know theres more to this than living a life and dying right? dang you bummed me out!!

Okie freak. I have looked ok?? I do want to read it so please .. go open the page you want me to read .. Copt your browsers address bar once its opened to the right page and then come back here and paste me the link to that page. I'm new here and I did look and went to each page in my search and i did not find it. Everyone else has to do their links .. your turn big guy!!

I'm off for Dinner.,. cyas soon.

[Okiefreak]

Okie freak. I have looked ok?? I do want to read it so please .. go open the page you want me to read .. Copt your browsers address bar once its opened to the right page and then come back here and paste me the link to that page. I'm new here and I did look and went to each page in my search and i did not find it. Everyone else has to do their links .. your turn big guy!!

I'm off for Dinner.,. cyas soon.http://hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260052
Does that get it?

[Okiefreak]

Yes, very interesting stuff and observations on quantum mechanics etc.

The problem is, most people do not think, nor do they seek to conduct their daily lives in terms of the principles of quantum mechanics.

Many are happy enough just to pay the rent, drink their Starbucks cafe latte, watch American Idol on tv, gossip about Britney Spears, and perhaps, do some Bible study on the side, just in case... http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gifGood point, and that's why I find it kind of impractical to insist on scientific proof for any belief that's supposed to guide people through everyday life.

[Niagra]

http://hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260052
Does that get it?Perfect!! Thanks

[Okiefreak]

Nope. What does that do for you?


We can't for sure either way. What I'm arguing against is people that say they do know for sure. But if you're really trying to find things out, I think the scientific method is the best way to do it.Absolutely! But many questions don't lend themselves to the scientific method, at least in our lifetimes. If we really need to make decisions based on some working hypothesis, science may not get us very far. (See previous post to Steve90.)

[Niagra]

Good point, and that's why I find it kind of impractical to insist on scientific proof for any belief that's supposed to guide people through everyday life.The reason why quantum was even brought into the equation was to validate the reality that there is power in conscious thought. Heck theres actually alot of power in that whole idea.
Have you ever known someone that you swear has a black cloud hanging over them, their life could simply not be any more unlucky. Always involved in one drama after another. (I used to hgave one of those suckers). Well based on the principals of these ideas here they have caused the cloud due to negative feelings. If we focus on grrr and up yours bucko attitude all the time then ... we going get screwed!! LOL But if we focus on happy and loving thoughts and demostrate that to others it shows in your life and in theres. Sortof like when you smile. It makes someone else smile too!!

I think that we are not talking about most people either. We are talking directly to each other here, and about what we all think is wrong with religion. I can tell you one thing .. We all pretty much agree on that word. Some say to me "well now , it serves a purpose for some lives"... well sure it does, if you're too damn stupid to know how to walk, talk and think on your own ... it sure as hell can be useful. But that is no trade for the murder lies and power they have been guilty is and its no trade for holding you hostage and not being all you can be. grrr I could go off for days about the living hell In the name of God they have done, they should be ashamed. Can you tell how I feel here!! lol ok I'm alll done and feeling better. Shew .. hehe.. Perhaps I shjould start smoking refer again ... lol Oh my . anyway . ttfn

[xexon]

lol .. You make me smile Steve90 .. hehe "just in case" that was funny and I hear ya.

xexon.. you were oine of the 2 I first noticed in this thread as having "it". I must say I am very surprised by your response above though. You know that is not true and I hope you don't by into that nonsense .. I mean this is not a dress rehersal and none of this is acting. This is our life and lives. At least the only one we get here I spose. I dunno. But you of all people are in touch with the "something" inside that has always been there that lets you know theres more to this than living a life and dying right? dang you bummed me out!!





Not true?

Perhaps its my wording more than anything else. I can be difficult to understand even on a good day.

My own background is one of yoga rather than religion so my wording is more geared along those lines. Many lifetimes instead of just one. And each lifetime another facet on the diamond.

Unlike most here, who either subscribe to one religion or another, or some other system, I speak from personal revelation alone.

I didn't really plan it this way, it just happened. And now I can't shut up :). So here I sit on a hill and yell down to the flatlanders what I SEE. Some would argue I'm the fool on the hill. Such is to be expected when you see things that others don't. Since its internal, you can't offer any proof.

The best I can do is present simple and easy explanations to things that defy words to begin with. I try to keep technicalities and difficult concepts out of it.

Its a skill I've only begun to cultivate.



x

[stev90]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=RodRD4-sQ2s (http://youtube.com/watch?v=RodRD4-sQ2s)


Frank Zappa - Dumb All Over Lyrics

Whoever we are
Wherever were from
We shoulda noticed by now
Our behavior is dumb
And if our chances
Expect to improve
Its gonna take a lot more
Than tryin to remove
The other race
Or the other whatever
From the face
Of the planet altogether

They call it the earth
Which is a dumb kinda name
But they named it right
cause we behave the same...
We are dumb all over
Dumb all over,
Yes we are
Dumb all over,
Near n far
Dumb all over,
Black n white
People, we is not wrapped tight

Nurds on the left
Nurds on the right
Religous fanatics
On the air every night
Sayin the bible
Tells the story
Makes the details
Sound real gory
bout what to do
If the geeks over there
Dont believe in the book
We got over here

You cant run a race
Without no feet
n pretty soon
There wont be no street
For dummies to jog on
Or doggies to dog on
Religous fanatics
Can make it be all gone
(I mean it wont blow up
n disappear
Itll just look ugly
For a thousand years...)

You cant run a country
By a book of religion
Not by a heap
Or a lump or a smidgeon
Of foolish rules
Of ancient date
Designed to make
You all feel great
While you fold, spindle
And mutilate
Those unbelievers
From a neighboring state

To arms! to arms!
Hooray! thats great
Two legs aint bad
Unless theres a crate
They ship the parts
To mama in
For souvenirs: two ears (get down!)
Not his, not hers, (but what the hey? )
The good book says:
(it gotta be that way!)
But their book says:
Revenge the crusades...
With whips n chains
n hand grenades...
Two arms? two arms?
Have another and another
Our God says:
There aint no other!
Our God says
Its all okay!
Our God says
This is the way!

It says in the book:
Burn n destroy...
n repent, n redeem
n revenge, n deploy
n rumble thee forth
To the land of the unbelieving scum on the other side
cause they dont go for whats in the book
n that makes em bad
So verily we must choppeth them up
And stompeth them down
Or rent a nice french bomb
To poof them out of existance
While leaving their real estate just where we need it
To use again
For temples in which to praise our god
(cause he can really take care of business!)

And when his humble tv servant
With humble white hair
And humble glasses
And a nice brown suit
And maybe a blond wife who takes phone calls
Tells us our God says
Its okay to do this stuff
Then we gotta do it,
cause if we dont do it,
We aint gwine up to hebbin!
(depending on which book youre using at the
Time...cant use theirs... it dont work
...its all lies...gotta use mine...)
Aint that right?
Thats what they say
Every night...
Every day...
Hey, we cant really be dumb
If were just following gods orders
Hey, lets get serious...
God knows what hes doin
He wrote this book here
An the book says:
He made us all to be just like him,
So...
If were dumb...
Then God is dumb...
(an maybe even a little ugly on the side)

[Maitreya]

We should not associate anything as bad or good, but rather the application of it. One would be correct in saying religion causes much conflict. But so does everything else. It's sad that humans made so many mistakes in the name of their religion. But if you scrutinize each situation, you will see that the atrocities were not in compliance with the intentions of each religion. Christians, Jews, and Muslims alike have done, and are doing, many horrible things. But the teachings do not promote this behavior. PEOPLE DO.

For example: natural selection. True? Yes. Then we should kill off the weaker of our species to further advance ourselves, not to mention save the resources it takes to support them.

There are many ways to twist the truth, but the truth will always remain constant.

[Niagra]

XeXON see this from your words...

Since its internal, you can't offer any proof.

This my dear enlightened friend is that "something" you have inside . I knew you were hooked up from the first time I read a single post of yours. And I understand very well what you mean by learning to cultivate your ability of sharing what you instinctively know, feel and SEE with others. It is a gift and it takes time to hone. If you can relate to others and actually I think if you care about helping others ... you are better able to share in ways that last and teach.

Theres not a lot of time .. IMO left to be hating each other and certainly not over religion. My Goodness ..


I have something very profound to ask the more christian of us here but its something to share with everyone.... So listen everyone ok?

I know one thing .. If we assume for just a moment that the bible had the right version of religion... just for a moment...

Let me ask you this... How many people were affected by Adam and Eves sin in the Garden of Eden when they ate the apple??

The answer naturally is Everyone. ALL people were affected by that sin ... right???

OK , Now then ... Surely then, when Christ ... God own Son Suffered and Died on the cross to pay for the sins of the world... THEN THEY HAVE BEEN PAID FOR ALLLLLLL MEN TOO>

Adam and Eves SIN affected all men .. therefore the SON OF GODS SAcrifice affected ALL MEN too.

Bottomline, the price has been paid. in full. Nothing we must do to receive it its done.

If it were anything more then, Adam and Eve and their SIN would be more powerful then the BLOOD OF JESUS. NO ...

Think about it.... Thats all.

The Bible talks of God being pure Love... and Men talked of God of wrath, and murder and sacrafice. It makes no sense to me in that context.

If you take some time and research ancient cultures of life that was heare thousands of years before the days they say were the days of the bible, you will see at least 3 that told similar, ( extremely) similar events including creation, and the flood of NOAH. Including a dang ark .. Does this not bother you.?

Start with the Sumerian and then the Egyptian... those 2 alone will cause you to be amazed .

There is a GOD, there is.... and hes written into our very DNA. We are a part of him and of him .. Its really simple when you know the facts.. They are out there .. just have a better educated look. Open your minds and hearts ask him to show you and he will. Simple as that.

OR NOT. As long as you're belief does not cause hurt to other humans, by closed mindedness, murder, death, or judgements... I think you are fine by me beieving in whatever truth you desire. But if you kill in the name of God or lend support to a "religion " that does, in ignorance or not... YOU are a part of the evil and share the blood on your hands. So if you have a belief system show enough compassion and respect for yourself to at least look at what has been revealed here.


Peace

[themnax]

i don't know ALL religeons. i know christianity and islam encourage people to deceive themselves in arbitrary ways about how harm and suffering are caused, though i don't think this was origeonally their intent. these two are also excessively chauvanistic, which buddhism is a lot less so, but still not entirely innocent of. the other beliefs i'm at least a little familiar with don't have these particular problems at all.

baha'i, which i'm almost more familiar with then christianity, though by no means any sort of authority on any of them, seems to claim the revealers of beliefs were infallable even if no one else is or was. that's the main reason, one of them, i'm not closer to it. i just don't and quite possibly can't, quite see it that way. whatever appointed those revealers of beliefs, all of them, might itself be infallable, but then again still might not. i don't quite see even that as having to.

i've never heard of taoist nor keepers of indiginous traditions nor shintoists, being shauvanistic though, nor have the three jewish denominations that i know ever seemed to be when i was exploring them. hindu i don't really know, nor sikh.

one thing i do find, is most claim to know things that are not really in any material sense known. most also seem to clam to know that some things can't or don't exist, and that's where just about all of them, save taoism and indiginous, get into appearent conflict with what can be observed, and or what can be experienced and felt without having to be known.

on the plus side though, all in some way acknowledge and even emphasise that there are spirits or awairnessess that we CAN experience/commune with, without having to even pretend to know what we do not. all also seem to, and here is where i believe they do represent the will of something that wishes us well, try to encourage us to want to avoid causing suffering.

=^^=
.../\...

[stev90]

The Bible talks of God being pure Love...

http://www.cyberscribe.demon.co.uk/scribe/images/fags0001.jpg

Uhm, the Bible talks of God being "pure Love" indeed .... :leaving:






... Surely then, when Christ ... God own Son Suffered and Died on the cross to pay for the sins of the world... THEN THEY HAVE BEEN PAID FOR ALLLLLLL MEN TOO>

Adam and Eves SIN affected all men .. therefore the SON OF GODS SAcrifice affected ALL MEN too.

Bottomline, the price has been paid. in full. Nothing we must do to receive it its done.

If it were anything more then, Adam and Eve and their SIN would be more powerful then the BLOOD OF JESUS. NO ...

Please do not use this forum and this thread to pontificate about your Christian religion, with a holier than thou, know it all attitude.

There is a sub-forum entitled Christianity, where you can share your delusions and waste your time with a merry band of like minded Christian wack-jobs who share your brand of drug called Christianity.


http://www.fatamerican.tv/t-shirt-archive/t-shirt-archive-images/jesus-is-my-drug450x.gif

Maybe, you can share needles with your fellow Christian drug addicts too.
:$

[Moon_Beam]

Maybe you should find some good references to your comments rather than relying on cult like groups and then generalising it to every Christian.

[Niagra]

lol
You are the first person in all these pages to act like a fool . I think had you used more thought you can very well see .. as I have spoken outwardly that I do not like any religion whatsoever. I find them all evil and all have serious flaws in them . I think they were the work of men to serve them for profit.

That was written to help show the fact that if christiands believe God is love, then why must his book show him committing murder and wrath and sacrifice to him by death. It makes no sense to me. And furthermore, Why would Adam and Eves sin be more important thabn the death of Christ.

This thread is not yours and I was answering the question put forth. You place some idiots photo on here as if it reflects someones thoughts.. Hardly..

Steve90 .. I'm disappointed ... deal with that. And for someone that takes a non judgemental view I must say your true colors are beginning to show. Perhaps something I have said hit a nerve in your "non-judgemental view point"

And wtf do drug addicts have to do with this.. And where and when did they become mine? The photo is really a class act. You should be so proud.

_______________

[Niagra]

i don't know ALL religeons. i know christianity and islam encourage people to deceive themselves in arbitrary ways about how harm and suffering are caused, though i don't think this was origeonally their intent. these two are also excessively chauvanistic, which buddhism is a lot less so, but still not entirely innocent of. the other beliefs i'm at least a little familiar with don't have these particular problems at all.

baha'i, which i'm almost more familiar with then christianity, though by no means any sort of authority on any of them, seems to claim the revealers of beliefs were infallable even if no one else is or was. that's the main reason, one of them, i'm not closer to it. i just don't and quite possibly can't, quite see it that way. whatever appointed those revealers of beliefs, all of them, might itself be infallable, but then again still might not. i don't quite see even that as having to.

i've never heard of taoist nor keepers of indiginous traditions nor shintoists, being shauvanistic though, nor have the three jewish denominations that i know ever seemed to be when i was exploring them. hindu i don't really know, nor sikh.

one thing i do find, is most claim to know things that are not really in any material sense known. most also seem to clam to know that some things can't or don't exist, and that's where just about all of them, save taoism and indiginous, get into appearent conflict with what can be observed, and or what can be experienced and felt without having to be known.

on the plus side though, all in some way acknowledge and even emphasise that there are spirits or awairnessess that we CAN experience/commune with, without having to even pretend to know what we do not. all also seem to, and here is where i believe they do represent the will of something that wishes us well, try to encourage us to want to avoid causing suffering.

=^^=
.../\...I enjoyed reading your well thought out words here. And you have looked at some religions I never knew existed too. Thanks for sharing that.

I think your observations are right on the money. It shows that we can all share in the same spiritual " awareness" or consciouseness and it be of a good nature, and instinctively know of it it and be with it .. in it. That is the one variable that al of these choices or beliefs have in common. Pretty profound I think ..

[Okiefreak]

http://www.cyberscribe.demon.co.uk/scribe/images/fags0001.jpg

Uhm, the Bible talks of God being "pure Love" indeed .... :leaving:




Please do not use this forum and this thread to pontificate about your Christian religion, with a holier than thou, know it all attitude.

There is a sub-forum entitled Christianity, where you can share your delusions and waste your time with a merry band of like minded Christian wack-jobs who share your brand of drug called Christianity.


http://www.fatamerican.tv/t-shirt-archive/t-shirt-archive-images/jesus-is-my-drug450x.gif

Maybe, you can share needles with your fellow Christian drug addicts too.
:$Then please also do not use this forum to pontificate about your hatred of Christianity, and particularly to misrepresent the beliefs of Christians in order to stir up hatred against them. The "God hates fags" sign is a blatant misquotation of Romans and is completely contrary to Christian doctrine. The people carrying it may think they're Christians, but they're not, and that should be obvious to any fair-minded person.

[stev90]

Then please also do not use this forum to pontificate about your hatred of Christianity, and particularly to misrepresent the beliefs of Christians in order to stir up hatred against them.

Well, same to you.
You and Niagra shouldn't use this Philosophy and Religion forum to preach, pontificate about your particular religion.
This forum is for general discussion of issues pertaining to philosophy and religion.

A post disputing the value of religion and the philosophy supporting it is valid in this forum. A post attempting to spread, propagate, pontificate about the teachings of a particular religion, in this case, Christianity, is not.

Similar to music, you and Niagra should post in the appropriate forums.
What the hell did they make a separate sub-forum for Christianity for?

You and Niagra should both move to the Christianity forum, where all you Jesus freaks can share the same disease and padded walls.

Have a nice day.

[stev90]

http://www.islammonitor.org/uploads/pics/kkk3.jpg

According to the Christian KKK klansmen,

Hate your next-door neighbor,
But don't forget to say grace. :leaving:


Sorry Okie, but this is just the forum to expose that big lie called Christianity.

[Okiefreak]

http://www.islammonitor.org/uploads/pics/kkk3.jpg

According to the Christian KKK klansmen,

Hate your next-door neighbor,
But don't forget to say grace. :leaving:


Sorry Okie, but this is just the forum to expose that big lie called Christianity.In other words, you want to distort the truth with no backtalk.

[stev90]

In other words, you want to distort the truth with no backtalk.

Okie, I suppose, you're one of those brainwashed Christians who consider the "Holy" Spanish Inquisition as a distortion of truth, rather than an actual historical fact.


http://hemi.nyu.edu/archive/studentwork/colony/auto/inquisition_-_burning_woman.jpg

[stev90]

There is a GOD, there is.... and hes written into our very DNA. We are a part of him and of him .

Uhm, if as you say, "there is a God, and he is written into our very DNA", then, according to your logic, God is written into Hitler's DNA.

Again, using your very own words, "We are a part of him and of him."

If God is written into Hitler's DNA, Hitler is part of God and of Him.
I dare you to spread that message to the descendants of more than 6 million Jews who perished during the Holocaust.



Thank you very much Nigra, for entertaining us in this forum and once again making a fool of yourself with your illogical reasoning.

[Okiefreak]

Okie, I suppose, you're one of those brainwashed Christians who consider the "Holy" Spanish Inquisition as a distortion of truth, rather than an actual historical fact.


http://hemi.nyu.edu/archive/studentwork/colony/auto/inquisition_-_burning_woman.jpgNo. I think it was as real and horrible is you do, but it happened a long time ago. Under Nero and Diocletian, there were terrible persecutions of Christians. But closer to our own lifetime there have been persecutions of all religious people by Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, and other atheists. We can learn from all these events the real dangers that hatred and bigotry can lead to--including hatred against people of faith just because a minority claiming to be of the same faith did something evil. That's a logical fallacy that you've tried three times to perpetrate on us.

[Okiefreak]

Uhm, if as you say, "there is a God, and he is written into our very DNA", then, according to your logic, God is written into Hitler's DNA.

Again, using your very own words, "We are a part of him and of him."

If God is written into Hitler's DNA, Hitler is part of God and of Him.
I dare you to spread that message to the descendants of more than 6 million Jews who perished during the Holocaust.



Thank you very much Nigra, for entertaining us in this forum and once again making a fool of yourself with your illogical reasoning.Hitler was blind to the divine essence within himself and others. By rejecting God and moral decency in a will to power, he sinned against the spiritual essence of his humanity and destroyed himself and his country in the process. Like so many of us, he was a battleground between good and evil, and his evil side won.

[stev90]

Hitler was blind to the divine essence within himself and others. By rejecting God and moral decency in a will to power, he sinned against the spiritual essence of his humanity and destroyed himself and his country in the process. Like so many of us, he was a battleground between good and evil, and his evil side won.Uhm, how can Hitler reject God when as you Christian kooks claim, God was written in his DNA?

How can Hitler reject God when according to Nigra, "we (Hitler) are part of Him and of Him."?

Did God reject Himself??
Besides, where did Hitler's evil side come from??
:toetap:

Well, Okie, whatever you Bible thumping hillbillies are smoking, I sure don't want it.

[MellowMike]

Uhm, how can Hitler reject God when as you Christian kooks claim, God was written in his DNA?

How can Hitler reject God when according to Nigra, "we (Hitler) are part of Him and of Him."?

Did God reject Himself??
Besides, where did Hitler's evil side come from??
:toetap:

Well, Okie, whatever you Bible thumping hillbillies are smoking, I sure don't want it.Simple answer to these questions is that God blesses all of us with free will; Hitler was able to reject God for the same reason you are able to reject God.

[venom_zx]

Simple answer to these questions is that God blesses all of us with free will; Hitler was able to reject God for the same reason you are able to reject God.aren't you complicating the argument by answering for someone else?

anyway...

what was the point being made by the following absurd statement?
"there is a God, and he is written into our very DNA"

[MollyBoston]

How about if we all agree that Hitler was an asshole, and then hug and smoke a bowl?

[hippie_chick666]

I wouldn't call Hitler evil, but an example of what happens when you give someone who has a family history of mental illness, a methamphetamine addiction, and tertiary syphilis absolute power. If his brain was truly swiss cheese, a result of advanced syphilis, how can he truly be held accountable as evil? Even the Catholic Church has recognized that suicides which resulted from mental illness will not automatically go the hell for their sin.

Hitler is an example of what an insane person can do when the people believe in his insanity- after all, was it Hitler who personally ran the concentration camps, did he personally force people into gas chambers, did he shoot others? No, there were MANY others (not mentally ill) who followed his orders and committed unspeakable horrors; they were the ones who didn't question why they were torturing and murdering innocent people. Why is it that Hitler is the evil one and we do not hold all those who actually carried out his crimes against humanity as responsible?

Just something to think about.

Peace and love

[yyyesiam2]

most of us come here and state/argue our opinions about life. if christians want to do the same, let them. what's with all of the hatred and accusatory attempts to discredit each other? how about some calm, mature, logical, debating? this is an "evil" that is on all sides of the argument. the behavior i've seen from some of the "intellectuals" here is far more immature than that i've seen from some of the christians. that being said, there is much hatred and violence in the bible and if you are a true christian you should have the entire bible memorized. i know this may sound like too much, but if you don't know every facet of your religion, there is definitely some blind following going on.

[MellowMike]

aren't you complicating the argument by answering for someone else?Sorry, I didn't realize I was jumping into the middle of anyone's argument... I really haven't read much of this thread. I was responding to the last post, which had caught my eye.

Besides, It's not complicating anything, we ARE given free will, which is why everyone here can believe what they want to about God and religion.

[Okiefreak]

Uhm, how can Hitler reject God when as you Christian kooks claim, God was written in his DNA?

:toetap:

Well, Okie, whatever you Bible thumping hillbillies are smoking, I sure don't want it.I can't answer the question about God being written in our DNA, because I don't understand what the hell it means. But I think it's interesting to analyze stev90's response. He takes a statment from Niagra, attributes it to "you Christian kooks" even though she's explained she's not a Christian, and then calls me "a Bible thumping hillbillie" for a view that I don't happen to have. Is this supposed to be a rational argument or just acting out?

[Niagra]

Hi everyone... I will say once again ,... and in keeping with the topic of this thread as every post has been about that I have responded too... that I think whats wrong with religions is everything. I personally think they .. each of them are based upon eivil and dictate the will of men not God. However just because I abhor religion does not mean I don't believe in God. In fact quite the contrary.

As far as the DNA comment... I backed up that statement with the actual scientific studies and data to prove the statement ... please have a look see.

And yep Hitlers too. Thanks to another responder who accurately answered the question put for and it is indeed because we like everyone have free will to choose what we believe on spiritual matters.

I argue that all of us have that something inside of us that we have always known was there. It is what brought us to this thread. Some are more in tuned to it then others. Some pretend its not there I guess.

The something makes sense moreso now to me now that it has been scientifically established that are very dna is encoded on the cellular level there with a message that can actually be read and we all carry the same one. All living things. Which means it was put there deliberately and obviously before we were!! So seems to me like our creator is actually in us and we all are a part of him .

You can't have a thread that discusses religion and expect christians or any other religions to not show up to the party. I had bragged about how well the topic was being so mature and done without bashing ... earlier. Bummer that it got a bit carried away and well you know.

Anyway and to Hippie Chick .. although I can assure you Hitler was indeed evil, you do have a good point when you accurately state that at least he had more of an excuse for his acting in his evil ways. The man had a medically induced brain scramble going on. But the men who carried out his orders did not have the luxury of the excuse. And I have often thought about them too. Going to work day in and day out and doing the horrendous things to those people. However, the crimes have not gone unpunished for many of those people. In fact I remember in my adult life when a very older man was placed on trial at his age for his war crimes . They did pay for what they did.

My stance in this thread has always been to look inside and use common sense when deciding spiritual matters. If you recognize that you have this "something" inside you and you have always known , there must be a god or something bigger than this out there, then you can also determine if a religion is good or not. In my own mind , I say, if a religion dictates killing in the name of God or asks for the death of a living thing as sacrifice to God.. it simply is a facade and a lie .. If you believe in a GOD then surely you know he would never want his creation to be killed FOR HIM. It goes against every kind of love I have ever known or can imagine . Thats all. Common sense.

All religions have truths and good things on the surface. No one would be in them if they hadn't. But when you look inside, you need only look to the love in your soul to know what is right or not about a particular religion.

Hope thats all cleared up .. Big hug everybody!!

[yyyesiam2]

evil=ignorance of god, truth, etc.

if you accept that, no one is evil.