Foreign labor

[whatshappenin23]

What are your thoughts on non visa, non EU immagrants getting jobs and housing assistance in the UK?? Is it just no biggie, or is there a moral problem...And, where can I get a good job! haha I need to make some quid (2 times stronger than the US dollar!)

[lithium]

There are strict controls on what access new migrant workers have to the provisions of the welfare state - they have to have worked for a certain amount of time, be established and pay taxes etc. We have a serious skills shortage in many areas and plenty of low-paid jobs remain unfilled. I don't particularly care where someone comes from - if they're prepared to move to a new country to seek work, do the jobs the natives of that country aren't prepared to do or fill much needed highly skilled job vacancies, and to pay taxes to that country, then they're more than welcome. Immigration is of course a net contributor to the economy, and it's only right that these valued and important contributors to British cultural and economic life, once they are established, have the same rights and safeguards that all British workers and taxpayers do.

[Peace-Phoenix]

I'm not a racist, I welcome immigrants....

[IlUvMuSIc]

I hate it when people complain about immigrants coming to the UK - brits have been practically everywhere so what right do we have to complain? :mad:

[IlUvMuSIc]

BTW i know youre not complaining about it... Just asking

[Peace-Phoenix]

I hate it when people complain about immigrants coming to the UK - brits have been practically everywhere so what right do we have to complain? :mad:There's a great quote I heard from a song about middle England called 'Velociraptor stole my tractor'. The song was shit, but one line stuck in my mind and that was:

"You want me out of your country, well you came to mine first..."

[phoenix_indigo]

I'm not a racist, I welcome immigrants....aww .. shucks ... thanks :D

[Peace-Phoenix]

aww .. shucks ... thanks :D
Sorry, I meant to say, unless they're white....

[phoenix_indigo]

Sorry, I meant to say, unless they're white....i see how it is. bet next you'll be saying only ones that can't speak English either. :tongue:


*edit*

oh wait, i might fall into that category ;)

[J0hn]

Our country is in a mess, there is too much strain on the system. Of course, we do welcome some foreign people Eu on not to come and help our economy. But then amongst some of the good immigrants, you get the bad ones. The ones who initiate gang child sex rings and lots of new weapons etc. Britain has to get the balance right. I read up on an article in the newspapers about the way Britain is an open door. I am sceptical. I believe that Britain needs tighter border controls or needs to reconsider some applicant procedures.


We do need foreign people to boost the economy, but I feel we have enough already.

[verseau_miracle]

We do need foreign people to boost the economy, but I feel we have enough already.Hehe, but theyre not stock, to be used to our advantage or halted when we "have enough already". Theyre human beings. Earthlings. People who have been born to this planet and who therefore share the land with all of us

Sure, that may sound like an idealist point of view, but the other end of the scale is racism or unfairness

The whole worlds overpopulated...if were feeling a bit cramped on this island, thats the problem

its a lot more complicated than this though, obviously

[antony26uk]

Don't care one way or the other

[J0hn]

I hate it when people complain about immigrants coming to the UK - brits have been practically everywhere so what right do we have to complain? :mad:
I disagree. Why should Britain roll out the red carpet for immigrants whilst locals (brits) get left to fend for themselves?

If we were bigger than america and this was the 1960's, I might have supported foreign labour. I think that equality needs to be for everyone. Not just foreigners, but us aswell. I am sure immigrants would want it that way aswell. There intention is to help Britain, but at the same time, not put locals outside the jobmarket. It is all about balance, fairness and realisticness. the problem is, britain is a small country with too many people in it. This leads to house shortages, strains on the system and a great divide between foreigners and locals. This is because the government roll out the red carpet, whilst leaving locals to fend for themselves. Is this your kind of Britain?

[whatshappenin23]

my grandma was from the UK, do you think I could get a visa?

[Peace-Phoenix]

You could get a visa, I'm pretty sure. I think citizenship would be harder. Where do you currently live?

[Smartie.uk]

now i am only commenting based on my own interpretation of the facts that my own environmental situation has allowed me... but...
i would say that immigrants (especially polish where i work) are fullfilling a gap in the job market.. the problem with english people is that dont want to work for minimum wage.. when infact if you have a reasonably non extravagant lifestyle.. minimum wage is enough to get by on.. imigrants will work happiliy for minimum wage.. because where they come from its a shite load of money.. we have too much pomposity in england... "i'm not working for 5.50 an hour" but then someone else will... you either want a job or you dont.. stop winging about it and take the job or an imigrant is gonna take it instead.

all this immigrants stealing job is nonsense.. uk citizens are giving the jobs away because they think they are worth more than they are.

imo

[Peace-Phoenix]

The answer, really, is to raise the minimum wage. I welcome immigrants into the country, but it's important that they're not used as a means for companies to push down average wages. That can only be avoided by keeping workers unionised, strengthening the formal sector and raising the minimum wage. The other trouble, often, is that the people who complain most about immigrants are people who don't have sufficient skills or qualifications to compete in a more globalised workforce. Partly the blame can be placed at the door of the education system, perhaps, but a lot of it (and I realise I'm in danger of sounding like a Tory here) does come down to values. That's not to say people are becoming workshy, I don't think that's the case. But there's definitely an anti-education ethic amongst sections of the working class, the ASBO generation, whereby people might drop out of school at 16 or younger with little in the way of qualifications and then come to regret that decision by the time they reach 20 and find that the modern labour market is not what it was in their parents' generation. The blame for this cannot be placed on migrant labour just because immigrants are better qualified. Government needs to do a lot more to discourage the anti-educational ethic, and this will not be rhemedied simply by teaching middle class values, it has to be addressed by tackling serious issues of poverty or what Labour now likes to call social exclusion....

[phoenix_indigo]

my grandma was from the UK, do you think I could get a visa?your grandma wouldn't even have to be in the UK if you wanted a visa. it depends on what you want to do really. do you want to visit, travelabout for awhile and possibly support yourself? do you just want to come and stay for a few months and have your own necessary means to provide for yourself? do you want to go to school over here? do you want to work and live over here? (this last one is completely different to the visit/travelabout/and need to support yourself question)

depending on what you want to do, depends on how easy/hard it is to obtain a visa. if you just want to come and visit for a few months and have money saved so no need to work, it is quite easy to come over, just be honest and tell them (when they ask) what your intentions are. you'd just have to have a place to live and (when they ask) tell them that you have enough money to sustain yourself for the few weeks you are visiting. you can gain a temporary visa from the US for a 6 months stay in a year. this means, if you stay for 6 months in one go, you can't come back for another 6 months.

there are other methods though, depending on what sort of stay you were talking about. some are harder, some are easier ... it never hurts to try, if you've got nothing to lose.

[J0hn]

I saw Newsnight/fivelive simulcast.

They were talking about how this government has literally left the front door open. As a result, Britain has become "saturated" and "flooded". I was open minded about all of this. I do believe that we need a five year freeze, see who we have already in our Country.
Then we can look at importing more immigrants when there is a gap in the job market.
For me personally, this immigration issue has actually got me concerned. So I am now looking at any job going. Even if it is part time. As long as I have a job.

It is all about balance. I don't think anyone who says, "lets put limits on immigration", is being racist or neo nazi. If people really want to see what Neo nazi is. Flick over to News24 and see the news on Neo Nazi. I don't believe British people are like that. They are quite welcome and tolerant. But now we are getting uncontrolled immigration. Tensions are rising. And it is pretty serious. I too believe Enoch Powell was right. I think he was a visionary, someone who for once had a braincell. Unfortunately his views are not welcome. Because even the word Immigration, has become a racist term. As bad as the N word. (Which I won't repeat here).

In the general public (ignoring the media) Many people actually are starting to revolt against the sacking of the Politician who went and broke the mould and agreed with Enoch Powell.

The issue is Numbers and how much the system can take. Also we need to look at how immigration affects social cohesian and our identity. I don't think it is racist to be patriotic. I think National pride is one of the greatest things about Human beings.
Obviously we have freeflow traffic from the EU states. Obviously they can come and go like we can come and go into their countries and live and work.

Which makes me wonder whether we should have joined the EU at all

[Peace-Phoenix]

I saw Newsnight/fivelive simulcast.

They were talking about how this government has literally left the front door open.
Were you watching the same Newsnight debate I was? I think one right-wing commentator might have mentioned that, but the range of the debate was much more diverse, taking in the benefits to the economy as well - and there is a net benefit - and no one proposed stopping immigration entirely. I don't think everyone who says they want to control immigration is a racist, but a lot of people who say they want to end immigration are racists. Most BNP members might not be neo-Nazis these days, but you don't have to be a neo-Nazi to be a racist. Indeed, anyone who starts a sentence with the words 'I'm not racist, but' is probably a complete and utter racist indeed. And John, if Enoch Powell was right, where are these rivers of blood? You could site the riots in Bradford and Oldham in 2001, I suppose, but those were themselves stirred up by the BNP in communities that had a long history of harmonious co-existence. Perhaps we should deport racists instead, I think Britain would be much better off without them....

[Power_13]

Perhaps we should deport racists instead, I think Britain would be much better off without them....That actually sounds like a decent idea...take all the people who say that they can trace their line back to Saxon England and that those who don't go back that far should be deported...a few simple blood tests...if they're found to be even slightly different to what they claim (and they probably will be) they're shipped off on the next ferry "home".

[whatshappenin23]

well I spent a good part of last year in the UK on a student visa, but that has expired. I came home because of a family emergency, leaving behind a job, many friends and a love interest. So needless to say, Id like to go back and pick up where I left off but I need to find out what the best way to do that would be.
With concerns to min.wage...Well, I had a live in job that paid min wage plus tips. Basically, the fact that I didnt have to pay food or rent and usually not alcohol either (I was a bartender) meant that I could save almost all my money. When I came back to the states I got double in dollars what I had saved in quid. Which means...considering all my expenses; plane tickets, eurorail, weekend trips, etc...I still saved more money by living and working in the UK than I could have if I moved in with my parents rent free and did nothing but worked a min.wage job in the states...So I definitely can see why everyone wants to come to England to work. We all want some of those pounds! and there are so many live in jobs! its unbelievable! NEVER in the states. I really felt like you guys take care of your people, natural citizens and immigrants alike. My country could really benefit taking a page out of the UK book. Damn, typing all this really makes me want to go back.

[Peace-Phoenix]

I've worked for minimum wage before. For an individual with relatively few expenses, it's quite adequate. The problem comes, say, with a single mother trying to raise three children on minimum wage. Even with child support benefits, it's going to be a struggle. But I can appreciate how this is still a preferable situation to that of similar individuals in America, bearing in mind that here education right through school and healthcare from the cradle to the grave are also free....

[lithium]

But now we are getting uncontrolled immigration. Tensions are rising. And it is pretty serious. I too believe Enoch Powell was right. I think he was a visionary, someone who for once had a braincell. Unfortunately his views are not welcome. Because even the word Immigration, has become a racist term.Immigration is not a racist term. It's an important issue and there are ways of talking about it that do not resort to racist prejudice, bigotry and xenophobia. But should you find yourself mouthing the old myths about it which underpin xenophobic thinking such as "they go straight to the top of the housing list" and "native Britons are second class citizens", or that old adage of the far right, "Enoch was right", then I think you probably need to examine your own thinking.

If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's probably a racist.

The phrase "I'm not racist but..." is interesting because it demonstrates that such individuals lack the metacognitive ability to understand that their assumptions actually are racist ones, which is the very definition of an unconscious prejudice.

[J0hn]

I believe that locals should not be left to defend themselves. This is the way it has become, because the Government (Labour) is literally rolling out the red carpet to foreigners. I am certain that anyone who speaks about Immigration, is not neo nazi or racist. I believe that anyone born in a certain country and is a natural born citizen should have priority. If I was to go to America and start demanding a house, a job and for the whole system to literally bend over backwards for me. That would be unfair. I would expect to be treated as someone who isn't priority because the place I came from isn't under tyrannical leadership and my life isn't in jeapody shalt I ever return. Of course, those who are in credible danger and seek asylum, must by the very nature of society, understand if they don't get what they want. No man or woman in the world gets everything they want.


Sometimes you have to compromise or seek another safe country to reside in. I can name plenty. But not suggesting that we don't want immigrants or we dont welcome them, is far from the truth. This is yet again, Media driven smears. (The Sun or the Daily Mail, probably.)
Only now that the state of immigration has come to critical levels, Nobody has actually seen such a surge of immigration in such a short space of time. It is too short a time, and change to our society is happening too fast. As an obvious result, tensions rise. It seems that when employers (And they still do) take on foreigners at lower pay, they are undercutting local people.

As before, Immigration HAS become a racist term, because there are a lot of people who simply give in to media spin. British people are not Bigots, racist(Most of them) or hostile. I think Local people have a right to be concerned. Immigration has on any country, an impact on social cohesian and identity. When controls are put in place and when the people of Britain start to vote for someone other than this Labour government, perhaps, just perhap, maybe, being positive here, we can limit immigrants to a few hundred a year when there is a desperate NEED for workers. The labour market is pretty full. Many immigrants and many local people. Lets get the balance right instead of letting foreigners get all the attention and let the local people's needs be heard and indeed met. I am sure that Immigrants want the same thing. They genuinely wish to contribute to society. Not as a higher up celebrity. But as an equal to the British man/woman. An equal society reduces tension and reduces pressure.

But!, lets be realistic,. How many more people should we let into the country, before everyone starts to revolt? How many can we fit into this finite island? Not many more. It is now the case that each year we have 250,000 foriengers who stay long term if not indefinately. Not all immigrants have jobs either. Many are claiming jobseekers allowance. I can understand and sympathise. I too am on jobseekers allowance. But, those who are claiming, the more claimants the more pressure and the tax payer bares the brunt. Is this a fair society? Should the government do more? Yes. We said that for the past ten years. Sometimes I wish margerat Thatcher was leader again. Atleast she stood up for local people. This government neglects its own people, but cradles foreigners.
Diversity can be a positive thing. but right now, the labour government are creating a tension. This means, we have a gap. This is not a good thing. I think I predict a riot.

[lithium]

"They're taking our jobs" - not true, Britain has hundreds of thousands of unfilled job vacancies both in unskilled labour and highly skilled professional positions, the migrant workforce are often the only people who can or will take up these positions, we actually need to relax the limits on immigration.

"Immigrants get better treatment" - not true, migrant workers who pay taxes get the same treatment as native Britons who pay taxes, they do not cause a drain on the welfare system but are usually young men and women of working age who pay their way and contribute to the economy - just what we need. There are limits on the access migrants have to welfare, social housing etc (and very strict controls on refugees, a seperate issue) so the playing field is actually tilted the other way. If anything we make it too difficult.

"Immigrants erode our national identity and social cohesion" - Britain is and always has been a melting pot of different peoples from the Jutes to the Normans, Saxons, Angles, Vikings and more recently those from the subcontinent and Carribean, migrant populations integrate successfully within a generation so that the children of immigrants become as British as any of us who were born here. This is only really an issue if you're a racist

"Britain is overcrowded" - not true, we have plenty of space, we have about half the population density of places like Belgium and Holland, at the current rate of population growth (about 0.2%pa) we'll be able to continue for perhaps a century before there is anything approaching a problem. Such extrapolations assume migration and birth rates etc will stay the same which is unrealistic - the postwar baby boom for instance was a temporary blip, extrapolations of population growth were actually way out because birth rates rapidly decreased. We are currently going through a period of relatively high immigration but it would be a mistake to assume this will not change, this is dependent upon living conditions in Britain and the rest of the world and the state of the job market locally and globally. Currently Britain is a booming economy with a high market demand for migrant workers to fill our massive employment shortfall and currently we are incredibly rich compared much of Europe, particularly Eastern europe and the accession states. These are variable factors, not to mention other factors like our ageing population and fluctuations in birth/death rates.

There may be an issue with global population growth and the use of resources in the longer term, this is not a local matter but a longterm worldwide issue and is not an argument against migration into Britain - currently Britain is in fact benefitting greatly from it. There will of course be local problems with allocation and expansion in any growing society and the lowest paid will cluster in already densely populated areas. This is no argument against migrant workers but a local problem which can be resolved with investment in infrastructure.

Doomsday prophecies are always overblown and are always shaped to fit the ideological prejudice of the person making them.
This duck quacks like a xenophobehttp://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/newsmilies/icon_bs.gif

[J0hn]

No, I am not a neo nazi or a zenophobe. If this was the 1960's, i might have actually welcomed immigrants. Now the government has gone over the top with no limits, increasing the EU countries (This is decided by Brussels on how big the EU gets)
Once again, nobody who is raising the subject up about immigrants or foreign labour is a "Racist bigot", "Neo nazi" or a "duck that quacks zenophobe".

I listened to five live the other day and I have to tell you that not all immigrants who enter britain suddenly get jobs. Many spend years on social security benefits. Atleast 1.7 million immigrants are claiming some sort of benefit. FACT!
There are 250,000 who are currently in work, unskilled or skilled trades. This figure is rising every month as more and more immigrants are coming to the UK.

My solution:

Many companies based in the UK should open up bases in the EU countries and across the world. That way, people won't immediately home in on Britain, as work will be available. To even suggest "No limits on immigration". is quite ignorant if not scary. Perhaps the day will come when many who call those who question the state of immigration such shockingly obscene words like Neo nazi, zenophobic ducks and Hitlers 8th army. Will in time take them words back. When they see exactly what Enoch Powell was saying was actually 100% spot on.

I don't believe Britain is a neo nazi culture. I think we have no morals, society has broken. But nonetheless, if anyone ever actually looked up the term "neo nazi". They might actually feel the need to perhaps....apologize:)

[lithium]

I listened to five live the other day and I have to tell you that not all immigrants who enter britain suddenly get jobs. Many spend years on social security benefits. Atleast 1.7 million immigrants are claiming some sort of benefit. FACT!Once again young J0hn your facts leave a little to be desired, that figure of 1.7 million sounds suspiciously like the estimated figure of total unemployed in Britain. 1.7 million unemployed immigrants is therefore a little, well, plainly wrong. The biggest pressure by far is unemployed native Britons claiming benefits and contributing nothing to the economy. Perhaps we should expel them to Eastern Europe in order to make way for more immigrants. Then again, you say claiming benefits "of some sort", perhaps you mean family tax credits etc, the kind of tax relief we give to working families who contribute so much to our economy for so little reward. Clearly hard working immigrants are as deserving of these benefits as "the white man", in the words of your hero Enoch Powell. Please be a little more precise:)

[J0hn]

The Actual figures are coming through due to pressure on the government to give us the facts. Forgive me and other's who say 1.7 billion employed. Actually far more are unaccounted for and only a third of 1.7 billion have been accounted for as unemployed and claiming benefits. It is all rather confusing because this government likes to cover up things including actual figures. Five live, Talksport and BBC News are good places to hear the latest.

www.bbc.co.uk/fivelive (http://www.bbc.co.uk/fivelive)


:)

[lithium]

1.7 billionMore than the population of China is claiming benefits in the UK?

[lithium]

Righty ho, I'll get my news from Talksport:rolleyes:

J0hn your ideas about this issue and your comprehension of the numbers involved are patently absurd misunderstandings gleaned from phone-in shows...

[J0hn]

More than the population of China is claiming benefits in the UK?
I wouldn't put it past the government. To be honest, I don't hate immigrants or think Britain would fare better if we never had immigrants. I think and I am sure am not alone here, the government has gone mad by not putting limits on immigrants and supporting the expansion of the EU. I am not a neo nazi or a zenophobic duck, or is anyone else who questions the way government handles immigrants and borders. It isn't racist to be patriotic, it isn't racist to think about local people. Local people come first and those who have come from war torn countries, fleeing persecution torture or even death. It is these that deserve to be priority along with locals. However, this country isn't infinite. Mass immigration will and is now becoming detrimental to social cohesion and our system that deals with the influx, daily.

I personally believe that when people use terms like, ''zenophobic ducks'', and ''neonazi''. First they don't drag the rest of us into their world. Finally, one should know what they are actually saying. I mean, it is a bit over the top to suggest someone is a neo nazi when all they are doing is questioning this lousy government's policy on border control. Nobody is saying, burn all immigrants, send them to concentration camps. We are simply suggesting that perhaps, enough is enough. Enoch powell was right, he wasn't racist. Perhaps when people hear the word Immigration, they suddenly assume that they hate and loathe them. It isn't anyone saying British jobs for british people. It is Gordon Brown. First off, that is illegal, as we live in a multicultural society, hense the EU. But also, jobs should be for anyone regardless of creed, colour, race or religion, sect or nationality. But before we let the whole world saturate the country. We should put limits where there is need, and allow some to come through when there is a shortage of British workers.

Simillarly, companies in the UK should create new bases in other parts of the world. Therefore they benefit without having to leave their country. It must be hard leaving their own country. To come into an alien society. I would feel the same. The bottom line is.....
Common sense. Lets be realistic, rational and keep numbers in proportion. A free world is unrealistic, crazy and simply asking for devision bells.

Of course this country needs immigrants. We value them probably more than we value our own people. Why should we roll out the red carpet for foreigners and then leave locals to fend for themselves? This is unfair and I am sure immigrants would also agree. The status quo of our government, is the very thing that will turn a potentially good thing,{immigration}, into a detrimental and negative event.

Our country is warm, welcome and is totally opposite to Nazi Germany, let alone Neo Nazi. Britain is a tolerant country. Perhaps we tolerate too much. Unlike the french, if our government do something wrong, we roll over and play dead. Typical brits, what is it about our love for tea:D

[lithium]

But before we let the whole world saturate the country. We should put limits where there is need, and allow some to come through when there is a shortage of British workers. http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/politics/domestic_politics/unskilled+immigration+to+rise+/1038362

Interestingly the government has to put out one line about being strict on old Johnny foreigner takin' our jobs (and doing them better) to pander to the ignorant and the xenophobic who have little or no understanding of the issue while the economy desperately needs more migrant workers to fill the massive employment shortfall...

Who called you a neonazi J0hn?

[phoenix_indigo]

Who called you a neonazi J0hn?i think he got confused because i said I was being a spelling nazi (as he keeps typing zenophobe and not xenophobe) and somehow he mis-read and thought I'd called him one. *unless i'm utterly confused - which could be accurate*
:D

[J0hn]

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/politics/domestic_politics/unskilled+immigration+to+rise+/1038362

Interestingly the government has to put out one line about being strict on old Johnny foreigner takin' our jobs (and doing them better) to pander to the ignorant and the xenophobic who have little or no understanding of the issue while the economy desperately needs more migrant workers to fill the massive employment shortfall...

Who called you a neonazi J0hn?
I think we need a Forum Dictionary.

[phoenix_indigo]

I think we need a Forum Dictionary.now i'm confused :eek:

[dapablo]

now i'm confused :eek:I assume a dictionary is required for all the big words, and the sentence is quite long also, one might even suggest never ending. :)

[lithium]

I assume a dictionary is required for all the big words, and the sentence is quite long also, one might even suggest never ending. :)I take it my ubiquitous sesquipedalianism has garnered the thoroughgoing opprobrium of the multitude?

[phoenix_indigo]

I take it my ubiquitous sesquipedalianism has garnered the thoroughgoing opprobrium of the multitude?showoff! ... damn, i know what ubiquitous, garnered, thoroughgoing, and multitude means (well and all the little words too) :eek:

this reminds me of the first time i stumbled onto this forum, there were a few regular posters (including you and Sal) that used such big words all i could think was damn the schools over here must be so much better. :eek:

of course now that i've lived here long enough i know this isn't the case. :lol: