PEACE MARCH - LONDON - OCT 17th 2004 [Archive]

Claire

08-25-2004, 07:24 PM

INTERNATIONAL DEMONSTRATION
STOP BUSH & BLAIR'S WAR http://www.stopwar.org.uk/images/splat1.gif END THE OCCUPATION OF IRAQ

Sunday 17th October 2004
Concluding the London European Social Forum

Assemble: Russell Square, 1pm. March to Trafalgar Square for a rally at 3:30pm, with music from Asian Dub Foundation at 5pm.

Most of us will be meeting at Euston Tube Station at 12:30pm if you'd like to meet up:)

A few of us are meeting on the Saturday evening before at the Carnarvon Castle pub opposite Camden Lock Market about 6pm for a bit of a social... come along?:)

People attending so far:

Attending:

Sunshine Lily
Claire
People are Strange
Showmet
Smartie.uk
Zonk
KoolAid
StarFly
Marie-Claire
RainbowKid (unsure)
Peace-Phoenix
Iago
Chickabean (unsure)
Paul
Alomiakoda
Mooninmamma
AdaM
Fabrioni

Love Clairexxxx

Nisha

08-25-2004, 07:25 PM

i would love to.. but im 15 and young :& and i doubt my mtoher woudl let me fly to britian..

Claire

08-25-2004, 07:27 PM

i would love to.. but im 15 and young :& and i doubt my mtoher woudl let me fly to britian..
Theres demos all over the world for this, So check out your local Stop the War office for details of the march near you?

Love Clairexxxx

Zonk

08-25-2004, 07:47 PM

Yep, I'm down for the duration rabble rousing.:)

Yeeehhaaa!!!

Koolaid

08-27-2004, 02:51 PM

I think I might try and get down for this....London protests are always fun

rainbowkid

08-29-2004, 02:52 PM

Sounds good an I'd like to go but I don't know anyone properly on this site it's not that I don't trust anoyone, it's just that I wouldn't be able to recognise anyone. I'll hopefully go if I know someone.

"When the rich wage war,
It's the poor who die."

- Jean - Paul Sartre.

Marie-Clare

09-03-2004, 04:24 PM

Hey Claire.

Yeah I'd definately go! I missed the last one in London and was devastated. :(

Marie-Clare x

chickabean

09-03-2004, 04:45 PM

i think il go...its too far off at the moment to say..altho il only be in leicester so its not far to travel...might need a lift tho...but yeh

blaaa

afrobeef

09-04-2004, 03:57 PM

i would love to go but im 15 and doing my last year of g.c.s.e's so is it in the school holidays? because i dont wanna miss any school. i miss enough due to my brace!

but have fun everyone who goes!
but dont you think that we should come out once weve cleared our mess as it were becuase otherwise we would probaly do more damage than help!
but it should stop definatly

Koolaid

09-07-2004, 09:44 PM

Are people still heading down to this??

Claire

09-07-2004, 10:02 PM

Yup:)

I'll make a list nearer the time I reakon... but for the time being if people are coming pm me and I'll send you a contact number for meeting up, if you dont know one already:)

I'll be in London all weekend me thinks... am meeting Showmet for a piss up the saturday night before the demo if anyone fancies coming along:p

See you there!!!!!!!!!!:D

Koolaid

09-08-2004, 07:56 PM

There is a good chance I may be in London saturday night...Will let you know if I am and come and meet you guys for a drink..

showmet

09-08-2004, 09:06 PM

I'll be in London all weekend me thinks... am meeting Showmet for a piss up the saturday night before the demo if anyone fancies coming along
We are? Good call! :D

Claire

09-08-2004, 09:12 PM

We are? Good call! :D
:confused: You said you were the night before last! Have you forgotton already Mr Jon? Grrrrrrr

*Hands Jon a memory!* (that's MEMORY not MAMORY:p )

Yay! Come along Mr KoolAid:)

Smartie.uk

09-08-2004, 10:09 PM

yay im gonna be there anyhooo.. so i might as well come down the day before and go out for a bit of a drinkypoos.. will be nice... beers on jon tho :p

Claire

09-08-2004, 10:14 PM

beers on jon tho :p
Yayayaya!! Let's chuck Beer at Jon:D

Smartie.uk

09-09-2004, 12:11 AM

ooo only if he wears a white t-shirt *sexy throaty tiger growl grrrrrrrrrrrr*

showmet

09-09-2004, 12:43 AM

I've told you before, I just like you as a friend! :p

Smartie.uk

09-09-2004, 01:18 AM

hey dude.. u never said how friendly you wanted to get:p

SunshineLily

09-09-2004, 12:28 PM

I'm there :D . Well not at the moment, but i will be there... So it should be good fun.
Love,
Sunshine Lily
xxx

PeopleAreStrange

09-17-2004, 05:06 PM

Ide love to but I dont think my parents want me going down to london on my own or anythin, is there anyone from njearby getting the train or whatever?

Claire

09-19-2004, 07:27 PM

For anyone thats coming.... a few of us are staying over at St Christopher's Inn, Camden (http://www.st-christophers.co.uk/london_hostel/camden.htm) on the Saturday night before the demo if you fancy meeting up for a drink (of Earl Grey) or two.

Love Clairexxx

Paul

09-20-2004, 10:21 PM

Alomiakoda

09-20-2004, 10:45 PM

I'll be coming if I can afford it *fingers crossed*

aka: if my EMAs started to be paid in by then

Claire

09-20-2004, 10:53 PM

I'll be coming if I can afford it *fingers crossed*

aka: if my EMAs started to be paid in by then
Yayayay!! See you there:D

Claire

09-20-2004, 10:53 PM

Yeah ... I'll have some of that ~ be nice to meet some of you at last :)
Cool!! You have my number right? See you then!:D

kppdlevel1

09-20-2004, 10:58 PM

I'll be there with bells on.

Paul

09-21-2004, 09:21 PM

You have my number right?Oops, I think I erased it ... erm nothing personal, just emptied my inbox without saving :&

Claire

09-21-2004, 09:57 PM

Oops, I think I erased it ... erm nothing personal, just emptied my inbox without saving :&
Oh thats a shame! I hope you've got Smarties or Showmets number then or what will you dooo?:p

Smiling_Rose

09-27-2004, 08:56 PM

I'll be there! I'm already going with a large group of people though, so doubt i'll have a chance to say hi. Ah well, hope you all have fun :)

Ellied

10-01-2004, 10:28 PM

michael, ill go with u if you like then u wont b alone xxx please smile for me babes

Lozi

10-02-2004, 06:51 PM

i've never been on protest before:(

Paul

10-03-2004, 07:14 PM

How about if we arrange a Saturday meeting point for people on this forum?

Claire

10-03-2004, 07:19 PM

How about if we arrange a Saturday meeting point for people on this forum?
Well a few of us are meeting on Saturday about 11am ish at St Christophers in Camden.

The Peace March itself is on Sunday... where do you suggest meeting?

Paul

10-03-2004, 07:33 PM

sorry I meant Saturday ... I was gonna come down to Camden Saturday evening anyway.

Erm ... I'm easy I guess ... How about somewhere near Euston Station about an hour or so before? Or I could always get back up to Camden again.

Dunno *shrugs*

Claire

10-03-2004, 07:49 PM

Erm ... I'm easy I guess ...
We heard:rolleyes: :p

12:30pm Euston Tube Station?

Paul

10-03-2004, 10:24 PM

Sounds good to me ... what about everyone else?

Peace-Phoenix

10-11-2004, 03:09 AM

Work permitting, I should almost certainly be able to make it. I'm good to meet you at 12.30pm Euston tube station....

Zonk

10-11-2004, 05:38 PM

On Saturday evening might I suggest meeting in the Carnarvon Castle pub opposite Camden Lock Market? About 6?:)

Claire

10-11-2004, 05:41 PM

Good call:)

I think I'll stick all this on the main forum...

Zonk

10-11-2004, 05:42 PM

Cool!

:)

lascara

10-12-2004, 12:20 AM

Claire

10-12-2004, 01:00 AM

Well being as we have paid for tickets to the esf i plan to pack in as much as i can as we will be at seminares til 9pm will you still be in this pub? Will some one take it apon themselves to call me if you move? how hard will it be to get from camden to the millenuim done late-ish? Any one local who can help? Sorry I am extremely demanding but I need help on this one lol,

Mistress Ailsa xxx
Give me a ring when you're done... am not sure about how to get to camden from the millenium, but whenever i am in London i just tend to go to the nearest tube station and ask there... they usually stick me on the right train:D

We can walk you guys back to the tube / taxi / whatever anyway:)

Love Clairexxx

TreeHouse

10-15-2004, 12:35 PM

Sorry Guys but after seeing the news footage of Iraqi mass graves and reading news reports of Iraqs appalling human rights abuses where thousands and thousands were tortured and imprisoned just for critising Saddam's regime I for one wont be going on this demonstration.

OK so the sercet intellegence reports that led us to war turned out to be unreliable but Saddam's crimes far outweigh those mistakes for example here are just a few:

The use of poison gas to murder thousands of Kurds and
Iranians.

The invsion of Iran and subsequent war which cost a million lives.

The invasion of Kuwait in 1990 which cost tens of thousands of lives and which needed half a million UN troops to reverse.

His attempt to assassinate former President George H.
Bush (Dubya’s dad) in 1993.

The way he harboured one of the bombers who attacked the World Trade Center that year.

I support you on other issues and causes but not this one. This was one war which was neccessary. I know a lot of wars aren't but this one was an exception.

showmet

10-15-2004, 06:07 PM

This was one war which was neccessary. I know a lot of wars aren't but this one was an exception.
If this were what the war was about then you would have had a case ... fifteen years ago. Many of those who were opposed to the invasion of Iraq are the same people who have been consistently highlighting the human rights abuses going on in Iraq since the 1980s ... a time when nobody in government would listen to us because that's when we were friends with Saddam and were selling him arms to use against Iran.

The humanitarian abuses of the 1980s (and the last major one, the crushing of the Shia uprising in 1991 which was a direct consequence of Bush Snr's war) are not what the war was about. I will be going on this demonstration like I've gone on the others to protest a government which was willing to lie about the threat posed by Iraq and is now willing to lie about having the interests of the Iraqi people at heart when the reason for it was always strategic, as part of America's long term energy security and full spectrum dominance agenda. Saddam Hussein was undoubtedly a monstrous tyrant; so are many other world leaders, many of whom we are currently allied with. It disgusts me that our government sees the lives of the people suffering under these regimes solely in terms of the underlying strategic and economic importance of the region.

"I do believe that there was a moral case for deposing Saddam Hussein, who was one of the world’s most revolting tyrants, by violent means. I also believe that there was a moral case for not doing so, and that this case was the stronger. That Saddam is no longer president of Iraq is, without question, a good thing. But against this we must weigh the killing or mutilation of thousands of people; the possibility of civil war in Iraq; the anger and resentment the invasion has generated throughout the Muslim world and the creation, as a result, of a more hospitable environment in which terrorists can operate; the reassertion of imperial power; and the vitiation of international law. It seems to me that these costs outweigh the undoubted benefit."
- George Monbiot

Paul

10-15-2004, 06:40 PM

Thousands upon thousands of Iraqi people died in the first gulf war, be very wary of emotive reports concerning mass graves. We do not yet know for sure how these people died and they may or may not be victims of Saddam Hussein.

We have to wait and see for sure, but it seems strange that these finds have been made at this point in time.

showmet

10-15-2004, 06:47 PM

Thousands upon thousands of Iraqi people died in the first gulf war, be very wary of emotive reports concerning mass graves. We do not yet know for sure how these people died and they may or may not be victims of Saddam Hussein.
It seems likely they are from the reports. They are up around Baghdad. Yes hundreds of thousands of Iraqi conscripts were butchered in southern Iraq in the first gulf war, many of whom were buried in their trenches by American armoured bulldozers.

TreeHouse

10-15-2004, 07:00 PM

If this were what the war was about then you would have had a case ... fifteen years ago. Many of those who were opposed to the invasion of Iraq are the same people who have been consistently highlighting the human rights abuses going on in Iraq since the 1980s ... a time when nobody in government would listen to us because that's when we were friends with Saddam and were selling him arms to use against Iran.Yes I know Britain and America behaved wrongly by supportting Saddam Hussein in the past, but that does not make the recent war to oust Saddam wrong in itself. Even if the reasons given for the war were based on false intellegence. What is at stake is that whether it is right to overthrow a regime which is extremely oppresive and murderous.

I know that there are also many other tyrannical regimes which have been ignored by the West, but surely Saddam's regime was a case apart. For example what regime sets fire to hundreds of oil wells, pours crude oil into the Persian Gulf after it had surrendered at the end of first Gulf War.

Saddam's regime in its 24 years before it was overthrown had been responsible for countless death and suffering and contiuning death and suffering. We know that every war results in a certain amount of death and suffering itself, but the amount of death and suffering had Saddam's regime been left in power would have been far greater in the long run. Remember people in Iraq risked imprisonment, torture and even death for merely criticising Saddam's regime. And freedoms which we take for granted like a free press, the right to strike, the right to a fair trial were unknown in Iraq. People were tortured, mutilated and executed on a mere whim without any hope of ever getting justice for themselves or there relatives.

Now at last Saddam and leading members of his regime will face justice for crimes against humanity.

DoktorAtomik

10-15-2004, 07:03 PM

showmet

10-15-2004, 07:07 PM

We know that every war results in a certain amount of death and suffering itself, but the amount of death and suffering had Saddam's regime been left in power would have been far greater in the long run.
This is simply not true. Saddam's worst excesses were the Anfaal against the Kurds, the Iranian war (we armed and supported him) and the massacre of the Shia (which we allowed to happen). There's no evidence whatsoever that these kinds of abuses were going on at all in the last 13 years. Saddam was pretty much contained and his regime was militarily and logistically crippled following the first gulf war.

Remember people in Iraq risked imprisonment, torture and even death for merely criticising Saddam's regime. And freedoms which we take for granted like a free press, the right to strike, the right to a fair trial were unknown in Iraq. People were tortured, mutilated and executed on a mere whim without any hope of ever getting justice for themselves or there relatives.
President Karimov of Uzbekistan is currently committing far worse human rights abuses than this, as are the theocratic rulers of Saudi Arabia. Difference? We're strategic allies with them. The whole humanitarian justification is one big fat LIE.

showmet

10-15-2004, 07:09 PM

Might I just point out that this forum is for sharing information regarding parties and protests? If you want to discuss issues raised, there are plenty of other forums where this can be done. Debating these issues here just clutters up threads making the information in the threads hader to find.
True, sorry. It's not the right place to debate the merits of the protests themselves, but when someone comes along getting their facts wrong in an attempt to diminish the importance of the protest it's hard not to get involved...

DoktorAtomik

10-15-2004, 07:14 PM

True, sorry. It's not the right place to debate the merits of the protests themselves, but when someone comes along getting their facts wrong in an attempt to diminish the importance of the protest it's hard not to get involved...Yeah, I totally understand. Just a general comment for people to ponder really.....

Claire

10-15-2004, 07:31 PM

Might I just point out that this forum is for sharing information regarding parties and protests? If you want to discuss issues raised, there are plenty of other forums where this can be done. Debating these issues here just clutters up threads making the information in the threads hader to find.
yeh, thanks Dok... I've put a few forum rules up now just to make that clear to people:)

I love a good debate myself and don;t want to stop any of them, but this isn;t really the right place.

Like Dok says it just makes it harder for people to get the info they want and arrange to meet up with each other.

I'll see if we can split the debate off and move it to the main forum:)

Love Clairexxx

SunshineLily

10-15-2004, 09:08 PM

Claire

10-15-2004, 09:12 PM

Grur, I can't go :(. I have 10 pence in me wallet and I think i'm going to have to work in the college canteen on sunday to gain some money to get out of here.

So sorry! Have a great march though!

Love,
Sunny
xxx
Awww was looking forward to seeing ya!

Never mind, will see you soon me hopes:)

Thanks for the well wishes:D

Love Clairexxx

TreeHouse

10-18-2004, 03:55 PM

This is simply not true. Saddam's worst excesses were the Anfaal against the Kurds, the Iranian war (we armed and supported him) and the massacre of the Shia (which we allowed to happen). There's no evidence whatsoever that these kinds of abuses were going on at all in the last 13 years. Saddam was pretty much contained and his regime was militarily and logistically crippled following the first gulf war.That still makes Saddam one of the worlds biggest ever war criminals and his past atrocities are jusification for ending his regime and bringing him and others responsible for the atrocities to justice. Not only that but ousting Saddam has paved the way for democracy and freedom in Iraq. Yes I know there are other vile regimes, I for one would support the ousting of Mugabe the butcher of Zimbabwe and think lack of action by Britain and America over his abuses is appalling. But that does not make action to remove Saddam wrong.

Now we all know that there is massive resistance to US and British forces in Iraq, but these resistance movements are no freedom fighters. The international left here are making the same mistakes they made when Russian invaded Afghanistan in 1980 and they supportted the Mujihaden who were reactionary Muslim fanatics. Instead we should be supportting the democratic and progressive movements in Iraq such as the non othordox muslim Kurdish leaders and parties such as the Worker Communist Party of Iraq (http://www.wpiraq.org/english/), which is now free to operate. And the call to withdraw all British and American troops is too simplistic it will leave Iraq in the hands of reactionary muslim extremists. What we should call for is the replacement of British and American troops with a UN peace keeping force made up mostly of troops from neighbouring arab countries who the Iraqi people can trust.

DoktorAtomik

10-18-2004, 04:20 PM

TreeHouse, did you miss Claire's post?

I love a good debate myself and don;t want to stop any of them, but this isn;t really the right place.She started a new thread for your debate.....

http://hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38294

Claire

11-04-2004, 12:19 AM

I support you on other issues and causes but not this one. This was one war which was neccessary. I know a lot of wars aren't but this one was an exception.
What other issues do you support "us" on? I am intrigued.... cos so far I havent seen any support of anything "we" (whatever we is) stand for on here...

With confuddlement and (still, barely) an open mind.... Clairexxxx

DoktorAtomik

11-04-2004, 01:02 AM

He's just a fucking troll. Or a Tory. Either's better of dead, so take your pick.

TreeHouse

11-04-2004, 09:08 AM

What other issues do you support "us" on? I am intrigued.... cos so far I havent seen any support of anything "we" (whatever we is) stand for on here...Well I have been involved in the left far longer than you. I went on the anti-poll tax march, the anti-criminal justice bill marches and CND marches. Aswell Mayday anti-capitalist demonstrations. That is one of the reasons I thought the war on Iraq was right because people in dictatorships have no right to protest or any sort of political action however benign. Therefore removing such regimes is a good thing even if the cost is high in the short term. The left haven't always opposed every war either, thousands of left wingers and anarchists for example volunteered to fight in the Spanish civil war against dictator Franco between 1936 and 1939.

Claire

11-04-2004, 09:21 AM

Well I have been involved in the left far longer than you. So that means you are right then huh? Sorry for being younger than you! :rolleyes: There are people on these boards that have been involved in the left far longer than you probably.... and your point being?

I went on the anti-poll tax march, the anti-criminal justice bill marches and CND marches. Aswell Mayday anti-capitalist demonstrations. That's great, well done:)

That is one of the reasons I thought the war on Iraq was right because people in dictatorships have no right to protest or any sort of political action however benign. Therefore removing such regimes is a good thing even if the cost is high in the short term. Yes oppresive regimes are bad I agree. Especially when the west support them and bring them about in the first place:rolleyes:

The left haven't always opposed every war either, thousands of left wingers and anarchists for example volunteered to fight in the Spanish civil war against dictator Franco between 1936 and 1939.This is an anti-war site. I don't know how you come to have such a problem understanding that:rolleyes:

Off to work, byeee