demonstration Against Marks and Spencer - 26th August - London

[Claire]

Time 6:00 pm - 8:00 pm

Location Marks and Spencer, Oxford St (Marble Arch end)

These demonstrations have been going weekly for four years to protest against Marks and Spencer - Britain's biggest corporate sponsor of Israel. The aim of the picket is to build a focus for Palestinian solidarity activists in Britain to spread the news about the atrocities that are taking place against the Palestinians and support their just struggle for their own state and freedoms. The demonstration has a democratic base with an open megaphone for all progressive people to use. Everyone from different religions and backgounds are welcome as are all Left/progressive groups.

[Marie-Clare]

Hey. Know any decent websites with more info about this? :)

[jonny2mad]

hmmm whats progressive about supporting suicide bombers and islamic fundermentalists ?

why does the left pick on the arab isreal issue all the time , there are much bigger human rights issues in sudan or iran but its always isreal all the time

try to think why ?

[Zonk]

hmmm whats progressive about supporting suicide bombers and islamic fundermentalists ?

why does the left pick on the arab isreal issue all the time , there are much bigger human rights issues in sudan or iran but its always isreal all the time

try to think why ?Anyone who supports the Palestinians right to a free state is a supporter of terrorists aren't they, as we all know that the Arabs are terrorists and suicide bombers, each and everyone of them. Just as are the Chechens, the Afghans etc etc. Yawn....

In fact I'm Irish and therefore genetically a mass murdering fuckhead.


On the 25th July Al-Mujihiroun had called an Islamic Rally in Trafalgar Square and The National Front called a counter-demo. Many of your so-called terrorist supporting 'left' turned up to tell them both to fuck off.

We'll be the left who supports terrorists and suicide-bombers then.http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

Please don't associate us all with the SWP Jonny for fuck sake.

[showmet]

hmmm whats progressive about supporting suicide bombers and islamic fundermentalists ?

why does the left pick on the arab isreal issue all the time , there are much bigger human rights issues in sudan or iran but its always isreal all the time

try to think why ?Demonstrations such as this occur because our society transparently supports the regime in Israel both politically, economically and in terms of corporate sponsorship and trade. If large companies in our society like Marks and Spencer were corporate sponsors of the Sudanese or Iranian regimes, if our governments supported the atrocities in Iran or Sudan, then there would be similar demonstrations against those companies and policies. As it stands, there is less we can directly do to affect things going on in some countries than others, sad though it is to say. As I take it, these are awareness-raising demonstrations designed to show our friends and neighbours that the actions we are taking in our everyday lives have direct repercussions elsewhere in the world. Our governments are not allied with those massacring innocents in Darfur or with the theocratic rulers of Iran. Our companies do not trade with them. Clearly this does not make these other abuses less important, very far from it. But there is less we can directly do.

So you are conflating two issues by implying that there is a double standard in play. Drawing attention to an issue over which we have a direct impact is not to detract from the importance of other issues of concern in the world.

By all means feel free to post constructive threads about other human rights abuses going on. Unfortunately you have a tendency to post negatively, detracting from other people's concerns at human rights abuses because they do not match your own priorities.

Try to think why.:p

[drea]

Hmmm....I do believe Marks and Spencer are now officially on my "support" list! I will place this on my action alerts. I like a good company that supports Israel and their right to live!

[Claire]

Hmmm....I do believe Marks and Spencer are now officially on my "support" list! I will place this on my action alerts. I like a good company that supports Israel and their right to live!
Each to their own I guess.

If you choose to indirectly support an oppressive regime then on your
conscience be it.

There is the environmental issue with M & S too. Them using Palm Oil is just one example, but then Walkers are guilty of that too.

[Zonk]

Each to their own I guess.

If you choose to indirectly support an oppressive regime then on your
conscience be it.

There is the environmental issue with M & S too. Them using Palm Oil is just one example, but then Walkers are guilty of that too.
These people don't have consciences.

They've got a lot of hot air though.:rolleyes:

[jonny2mad]

"These people don't have consciences"


your full of shit

I wasnt going to post anymore on this thread but your like a bunch of turkeys in favour of christmas.

one little counter demo is fine but generally the left backs islamists,
so much so that I believe your being bought by oil money, your tools.

we do trade with other countrys with bad humans rights what powers your cars oil.

isreal doesnt have oil and it has the islamic block to block vote un resolutions against it all the time while the world ignores whats happening in its neighbours .

by supporting campaigns like this you are supporting the agenda of hamas , hezbollah , islamic jihad , al-asqa martyr brigade and all the other child killing suicide bombing scum.

[DoktorAtomik]

your full of shit Nice to see you winning hearts and minds as always. If they're full of shit, then you're a dangerous racist fanatic. Hey, I like this sweeping generalisations and personal abuse thing you've got going on here!

PS. Do you have mental health problem? Just wondering. Your handle got me thinking. You appear to be incapable of following a rational debate. Showmet explained the flaw in your approach, but as usual you've ignored him, choosing instead to rant and rant and rant and rant and rant.......

[Zonk]

"These people don't have consciences"


your full of shit

I wasnt going to post anymore on this thread but your like a bunch of turkeys in favour of christmas.

one little counter demo is fine but generally the left backs islamists,
so much so that I believe your being bought by oil money, your tools.

we do trade with other countrys with bad humans rights what powers your cars oil.

isreal doesnt have oil and it has the islamic block to block vote un resolutions against it all the time while the world ignores whats happening in its neighbours .

by supporting campaigns like this you are supporting the agenda of hamas , hezbollah , islamic jihad , al-asqa martyr brigade and all the other child killing suicide bombing scum.
Good boy! Thats the way! Make yourself feel a REAL man!

I've already answered your rabid shite about supporting wanker islamic mentalists but you obviously only have the ability to see things in black and white.

[DoktorAtomik]

I've already answered your rabid shite about supporting wanker islamic mentalists but you obviously only have the ability to see things in black and white.Yeah, been here many times before. j2m never listens to anything anyone says. He just rants.

[Zonk]

Perhaps valium. Failing that a lobotomy.;)


Actually I take that back as I don't want to stoop to his standards.

<slaps himself round the face>

[jonny2mad]

if you talk to secular iranians they blame the mullahs on us the uk, we do trade and our governments support countrys like saudi

and the only way Id win your heart or mind is to agree with you I dont

[DoktorAtomik]

and the only way Id win your heart or mind is to agree with you I dontSee, that's where you're wrong. You could start out by actually listening to what people say before you start to drool at the mouth. It might also be a good idea to treat other peoples' opinions with respect. All you ever do is rant on about how bad Islam is, entirely missing the point that nobody disagrees with you on that issue. That doesn't mean we support Israel though.

[jonny2mad]

This campaign is against Isreal so you have taken sides .
The agenda and much of the propoganda comes from Islamic terrorist groups if your consciences are happy with that thats up to you .

[DoktorAtomik]

This campaign is against isreal so you have taken sides .Fucking helly, jonny. That's the reasoning of a 5yr old! It's not about sides. Why do you find that so hard to understand? If I say "Labour is shit", does that mean that I support the Tories?

[Zonk]

I am personally in correspondance with both Palestinian AND Israeli activist groups neither of them agree with mentalism of any religious creed Jonny but no doubt you are unable to contemplate these people exist.

And anybody who rants about Islamic terrorism and the Israeli issue ought to go back and check the history of the formation of the Israeli state. Fucking hypocracy!:rolleyes:

[jonny2mad]

its not saying labour is shit, its trying to destroy isreal through putting pressure on businesses that support it .

your not neutral your helping the agenda of one side

[DoktorAtomik]

its not saying labour is shit, its trying to destroy isreal through putting pressure on businesses that support it .

your not neutral your helping the agenda of one sideThat's the most simplistic reasoning I've ever heard outside a nursery. You could equally argue that by encouraging people to withdraw funding from Labout I'd be supporting the Tory party. What a load of bollocks.

Furthermore, I don't remember anyone advocating 'destroying' Israel. I was under the impression we were advocating putting pressure on them to improve their treatment of Palestinians? Being opposed to the way Israel treats the Palestinians does not mean being pro-Islam. You personally might feel that it helps Islam, but that's a subjective personal opinion.

[Zonk]

That's the most simplistic reasoning I've ever heard outside a nursery. You could equally argue that by encouraging people to withdraw funding from Labout I'd be supporting the Tory party. What a load of bollocks.

Furthermore, I don't remember anyone advocating 'destroying' Israel. I was under the impression we were advocating putting pressure on them to improve their treatment of Palestinians? Being opposed to the way Israel treats the Palestinians does not mean being pro-Islam. You personally might feel that it helps Islam, but that's a subjective personal opinion.
Jonny you might be unaware of this but there is a mass of people in Israel who feel this way too.

[jonny2mad]

doc the thread is biased towards one side in a conflict

"its just about solidarity with palestinians and news about atrocities that are taking place against them and support for their own just struggle and state and freedoms"

it doesnt talk about the isrealis being killed and atrocities being commited against them, or their just right to a state....wheres anything about the isrealis freedoms from not being killed .

[DoktorAtomik]

doc the thread is biased towards one side in a conflictYes. So what? When we talk about one set of wrongs in the world, are we obliged to talk about all wrongs? When you talk about the atrocities of Islam, you you also mention the atrocities of Israel?

[jonny2mad]

just pointing out more fully that you have chosen sides


:)

[DoktorAtomik]

just pointing out more fully that you have chosen sidesNo at all. You're just demonstrating your ignorance even further. Not all of are interested in something as childish as 'choosing sides'. The last time I 'chose sides' was football teams at school.

For your elucidation, let me explain: if you see two people in a fight and drag one person off, it doesn't mean you've chosen sides or support the other person.

[Zonk]

just pointing out more fully that you have chosen sides


:)

What an ironic statement....

[jonny2mad]

If you see two people in a fight and you support the cause of one side their right to a state.

Publish details of supposed atrocities committed against them, and don’t do the same where there are as clear or clearer atrocities being committed against the other side.

State that your campaign itself is in solidarity with one side i.e. the Palestinians.

And then try to get people to boycott companys doing business with one side.

This seems a pretty watertight case that you have chosen sides.



Hezbollah for example are funded to a large extent by Iran we do a lot of business with Iran, in fact we have a massive trade surplus. Hezbollah are the people who started up the idea of suicide bombing .

I don’t see the left supporting campaigns trying to get Iran to stop funding suicide bombing, by boycotting the people who do business with Iran the people who finance them

[jonny2mad]

Im not saying that Im not more inclined to support one side than the other.


what got me was being told that if I wasnt anti isreal I had no conscience,
when if you look at the detail of what the other side want its not very progressive.

[DoktorAtomik]

If you see two people in a fight and you support the cause of one side their right to a state.This is your infantile logic at work again. I don't support one side. I support the Palestinian's right to live unmolested by Israel in the same way that I support the Israeli's right not to be subjected to suicide bombings.

Publish details of supposed atrocities committed against them, and don’t do the same where there are as clear or clearer atrocities being committed against the other side.Loo, this logic is retarded. Do you think there's a single person in the Western world who isn't aware of Palestinian suicide bombings? Are you suggesting that we should have to add that as a footnote to every comment we ever make regarding the abuses perpetrated by the Israeli state? That's like saying you can never say that the BNP are a bad thing without also mentioning the problems caused by immigration. Drawing people's attention to one side's abuses does not equate to supporting the other side's abuses.

State that your campaign itself is in solidarity with one side i.e. the Palestinians.Well not really, coz I don't have a campaign. Do you? Have you chosen sides? Not everyone sees the issues in the same black and white terms as you do, and it's inuslting that you should presume that we do.

[Zonk]

Im not saying that Im not more inclined to support one side than the other.


what got me was being told that if I wasnt anti isreal I had no conscience,
when if you look at the detail of what the other side want its not very progressive.Who said if you weren't anti Israel you had no conscience?

Your putting words into my mouth coz your arguments suck eggs...

The crap argument that if you dont support a particular train of Israeli thought (of which there are many just like here) you are therefore anti-semetic and against the whole existance of Israel. It's a pathetic tactic used as a weapon to stifle democratic debate.

[Taz]

Israel does have oil reserves, and has the largest amount of nuclear artilary of any middle eastern country, on which there have been no surprise UN inspections, and only one where the inspectors were allowed to check designated areas chosen by the israeli govt. Mordachai Vanunu wasnt locked up for nothing...
no oppinion just resurfaced fact
nice to have a debate where ppl can coherantly put forward both sides to an arguament

[drea]

Who said if you weren't anti Israel you had no conscience?

Your putting words into my mouth coz your arguments suck eggs...

The crap argument that if you dont support a particular train of Israeli thought (of which there are many just like here) you are therefore anti-semetic and against the whole existance of Israel. It's a pathetic tactic used as a weapon to stifle democratic debate.

You and claire said that indirectly to me. Because I wont support your cause to destroy Israel in favor of Palestine. You see by doing that protest you advocate little by little you are trying to destroy Israel and her right to life. You would rather see Israel poor and hungry so that Palestinians can exterminate the pigs and infidels!

[showmet]

I wont support your cause to destroy Israel in favor of Palestine. You see by doing that protest you advocate little by little you are trying to destroy Israel and her right to life. You would rather see Israel poor and hungry so that Palestinians can exterminate the pigs and infidels!
Sheer unbridled ignorance. Who said the cause is to destroy Israel? The cause is to protest Israel's well-documented human rights abuses against the backdrop of Israeli transgression and defiance of international law.

[Claire]

You and claire said that indirectly to me. Because I wont support your cause to destroy Israel in favor of Palestine. You see by doing that protest you advocate little by little you are trying to destroy Israel and her right to life. You would rather see Israel poor and hungry so that Palestinians can exterminate the pigs and infidels!
I never said you didn't have a conscience... please read my actual words.

[drea]

Sheer unbridled ignorance. Who said the cause is to destroy Israel? The cause is to protest Israel's well-documented human rights abuses against the backdrop of Israeli transgression and defiance of international law.

So a hidden agenda to destroy Israel is ok according to you? By protesting Israel you are saying that it is ok to suicide bomb Israel..Or are you protesting Palestine for that as well?

[drea]

I never said you didn't have a conscience... please read my actual words.
I read them loud and clear and you said to each his own which was all fine and dandy. However your implications were quite clear. If it isnt your way it is the wrong way.

[DoktorAtomik]

So a hidden agenda to destroy Israel is ok according to you? By protesting Israel you are saying that it is ok to suicide bomb Israel..Or are you protesting Palestine for that as well?What the fuck? Are you on crack? How does criticising Israel equate with a support for suicide bombing?

[drea]

It goes far deeper than just a mere critisizing. I mean protesting is the activity of doing harm to a person in this case finacially. So you are hurting one groups livelyhood so that suicide bombers can go free....I mean I dont see anyone on this board doing a protest against any Palestinians. And the Palestinian people elected a terrorist as their leader. A leader that says nice things to your face but behind your back tells, no instructs, all Palestinians to sacrifice their children for infantada!


But I guess to all the bleeding hearts on this board strapping bombs to the chest of your child or using your child as a human shield to get Israelis to NOT shot at you just so you can ambush them is a good thing. Waaay to go people!

[DoktorAtomik]

It goes far deeper than just a mere critisizing. I mean protesting is the activity of doing harm to a person in this case finacially.Uhuh. Yup. That's a valid form of protest. However, I'm not sure how deduce that this means:

So you are hurting one groups livelyhood so that suicide bombers can go free...Who mentioned anything about suicide bombers?

I mean I dont see anyone on this board doing a protest against any Palestinians.Well it'd be pretty hard to damage the Palestinians economically, wouldn't it? They're kinda screwed already. Added to which, there's plenty of public awareness focused on the atrocities carried out by Islamic suicide bombers, but far less awareness of the atrocities carried out by the Israeli state.

Here's an idea. How about you run a poll and see how many of us support suicide bombings?

And the Palestinian people elected a terrorist as their leader. A leader that says nice things to your face but behind your back tells, no instructs, all Palestinians to sacrifice their children for infantada!That's right. Every single Palastinian voted for Arafat. Therefore they're all evil. Do we hold it against every American that you were stupid enough to elect Bush?

But I guess to all the bleeding hearts on this board......Ah, the standard whine of the right wing neo-fascist. If you disagree with the right wing agenda, you're a 'bleeding heart'. That's childishly insulting, but fairly typical.

......strapping bombs to the chest of your child or using your child as a human shield to get Israelis to NOT shot at you just so you can ambush them is a good thing. Waaay to go peopleSee, this is why people have very little respect for this type of view. You're entirely irrational. You take unrelated facts and use your own biased opinions to create a connection that isn't there, just because it suits your prejudiced agenda.

Let's be clear. Nobody here supports the activities of Islamic terrorists. Period. The fact that you insist on assuming we do shows how ignorant you are, and demonstrates that you either have no understanding of our position, or else you're so arrogant that you purposefully choose to ignore the facts, because you'd rather demonise us.

It's perfectly legitimate to oppose the behaviour of the Israeli state without supporting suicide bombers.

Look, say America decided to nuke Iraq and Afghanistan. Say people chose to demonstrate against that. Would you assume that everyone opposed to American use of nuclear weapons was pro-terrorism? Or would you consider it reasonable for people to question the use of nuclear weapons and protest against that use?

Or closer to home, if you saw a couple of cops kicking the shit outta some black dude, would you think "hmmm, can't object to that, coz I might be supporting criminality"?

In the same way, it's possible for us to oppose the behaviour of the Israeli state without supporting terrorism.

[SelfControl]

I personally support Palestine in the whole West Bank issue, but only because I hate the Jews. To be honest, there's such a weight of faults on both sides that it's too close to call, and so I can't really criticise someone for siding with Israel really, it's all much of a muchness. That said, it would've been nice if everyone could've just kept their noses out of the whole debacle and let them all kill each other.

[DoktorAtomik]

I can't really criticise someone for siding with Israel reallyWho says it has to be about choosing sides? Don't adults look at the rights and wrongs of both parties rather than just trying to break everything down into goodies and baddies?

[Peace-Phoenix]

I personally support Palestine in the whole West Bank issue, but only because I hate the Jews. To be honest, there's such a weight of faults on both sides that it's too close to call, and so I can't really criticise someone for siding with Israel really, it's all much of a muchness. That said, it would've been nice if everyone could've just kept their noses out of the whole debacle and let them all kill each other.
The most disturbing thing you've just said is that you hate the Jews. Why? Are you a Nazi or something? I'm by and large against what the state of Israel is doing at the moment and the human rights abuses it is responsible for, but in no way do I dislike Jews. I know some very lovely Jewish people. How can you categorically prejudice against an entire race, especially one so long suffering as the Jews? That's just plain wrong....

[DoktorAtomik]

I was kinda hoping it was just lazy typing and he actually meant "the Israeli state" :)

[Peace-Phoenix]

I hope you're right, but it's a pretty non-PC slip to make....

[DoktorAtomik]

I expect I'm wrong. It was just a wild and whacky experiment in looking for the best in people ;)

[Peace-Phoenix]

Well he doesn't seem to be racist in other threads, seems quite reasonable and open minded. Hope it was just a slip....

[SelfControl]

The most disturbing thing you've just said is that you hate the Jews. Why? Are you a Nazi or something? I'm by and large against what the state of Israel is doing at the moment and the human rights abuses it is responsible for, but in no way do I dislike Jews. I know some very lovely Jewish people. How can you categorically prejudice against an entire race, especially one so long suffering as the Jews? That's just plain wrong....

I was doing schtick. The real reason I sided with Palestine over Israel is because they got fucked over by us in the first place, so technically we owe them.

I'm not an anti-Semite, although thinking about it now, I've never met anyone Jewish who I actually like.

[SelfControl]

Who says it has to be about choosing sides? Don't adults look at the rights and wrongs of both parties rather than just trying to break everything down into goodies and baddies?

If you're going to demonstrate against a company for their part in a war, you've probably already done it. To me, it's not goodies and baddies, it's just 5.9999... of one, half a dozen the other.

[matthew]

If you're going to demonstrate against a company for their part in a war, you've probably already done it. To me, it's not goodies and baddies, it's just 5.9999... of one, half a dozen the other.

I think i agree with that..

[DoktorAtomik]

If you're going to demonstrate against a company for their part in a war, you've probably already done it. To me, it's not goodies and baddies, it's just 5.9999... of one, half a dozen the other.Done what? Chosen sides? I hardly think so. It's simply about making your voice heard loudest where you think it's the most important. That doesn't imply 'choosing sides'. If I was to demonstrate against the Labour party's handling of, say, the health service, does that automatically mean I've sided with the Conservatives? Nope. That's a very narrow minded way of looking at the situation.

The simple fact of the matter is that I believe there's right and wrong on both sides. And I really think I'[m the best placed person to judge whether or not I've 'taken sides'. I think the Israeli government are more in need of vocal criticism at the moment because they have the might of a military machine behind them.