Homosexuality/Christianity conflict (MERGED)

[Leki]

Just a random thought but....I'm Christian, and both of my parents are Christian but I'm bi. So according to the bible I'm going to hell when I die. I don't really beleive that, and don't really care. >.< Do Buddist's or Pagen's (ect.) go to hell as well?

[austin69]

I believe that God loves everyone and doesnt care what peoples preferances are. As long as they're good christians we will go to heaven

[Mui]

im not christian or anything, but i find it amusing how you can be a christian while it clearly does not condone homosexuality in the bible.

[WayfaringStranger]

leki, you go and read the bible to see if youre goin to hell or not. dont listen to what other people say. you make up your own mind, and if you want to jesus'l come and save you.

[thespeez]

Just a random thought but....I'm Christian, and both of my parents are Christian but I'm bi. So according to the bible I'm going to hell when I die. I don't really beleive that, and don't really care. >.< Do Buddist's or Pagen's (ect.) go to hell as well?Much of what contemporary (pardon the expression) 'christians'-particularly fundamentalists-portray sexual immorality is not at all what was being described in the Bible when it was being written. Sexual immorality in those days involved rape, deceit and sexual torture, not to mention human sacrifices. It was not defined as engaging in consentual sexual encounters outside of a given institution (i.e. Marriage).

Much of how sexual immorality was re-defined came about during the fourth century of the common era. Christianity had gained widespread popularity among the populace. In an effort to squelch the disagreements that were taking place among the populace at the time, officials of the government of the Roman Empire called to assembly the council of Nicea which would become the foundation for church doctrine for centuries to come. The motives of the officials were not to promote spiritual integrity but instead to further the political agenda of the Roman officials. One of the issues that was dealt with involved sexual conduct thus the twisted, demented view of sexuality emerged as part of church doctrine. The effects of this are still being felt today.

Fundamentalists and other dogmatists can quote chapter and verse 'til the cows come home in an effort to justify their stubbornness and bigotry. Without understanding all of the logistics into what was trying to be illustrated and with taking things out of context, their credibility needs to be brought into question. I could go into further detail, but I'll direct you to the following websites:
http://inkaboutit.homestead.com/adultdefine.html -interesting perspective on what was really meant by adultery.
www.libchrist.com (http://www.libchrist.com/) -deals with Christians in the polyamorous lifestyle-may provide interesting perspectives on other topics as well.
www.mccchurch.org (http://www.mccchurch.org/) -Metropolitan Community Churches- A GLBT Christian Outreach.

On the subject of Buddhism, it is possible that Jesus may have trevelled to Kashmir at one time during His life, and it is said that He was welcomed by Buddhists but not by high-caste Hindus. He deplored the tratement of the lower castes by the upper castes. Check out:
http://a1.nu/christian/jesuschrist/lived_in_india.htm -features intersting links

Also, type in "Jesus";"Buddhist(s)" and "Kashmir" in any search engine for more information not provided here.

Hope this helps! Remeber, Never cave in to fudamentalist dogma! Do your best to beat them at their own game! The Almighty One loves you without reservation.

[atropine]

Much of what contemporary (pardon the expression) 'christians'-particularly fundamentalists-portray sexual immorality is not at all what was being described in the Bible when it was being written. Sexual immorality in those days involved rape, deceit and sexual torture, not to mention human sacrifices. It was not defined as engaging in consentual sexual encounters outside of a given institution (i.e. Marriage).
umm.. really?

ever seen the mitzvah?

ive seen different translations but a quick example..

-Not to commit sodomy with a male (Lev. 18:22)
that one seems worded too perfectly, but it was the quickest i could find.. most others ive seen usually are along the lines of not lying with a man like you would a woman.. im not anti-homosexuality in anyway but just stating the case. the anti-homosexual standpoint in christianity came from its jewish roots, none of this 4th century crap. also, im not christian, im not jewish, this is just what i think is correct as far as biblical ideas go.. as far as i know, their is nothing in the mitzvah barring lesbian sex, unless it came under incest.. i could be wrong on all counts, and i know a few people who visit this forum know more on judaism/christianity than i do so maybe they can fix it up.. again, i dont agree with it, just clearing up what you said.


some christian translations..

NIV: (New International Version) "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."
KJV: (King James Version): "Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is abomination".
ESV: (English Standard Version): "You shall not lie with a man as with a woman; it is abomination."

[thespeez]

umm.. really?

ever seen the mitzvah? Can't say that I have.


ive seen different translations but a quick example..

-Not to commit sodomy with a male (Lev. 18:22)
that one seems worded too perfectly, but it was the quickest i could find.. most others ive seen usually are along the lines of not lying with a man like you would a woman.. im not anti-homosexuality in anyway but just stating the case. the anti-homosexual standpoint in christianity came from its jewish roots, none of this 4th century crap. also, im not christian, im not jewish, this is just what i think is correct as far as biblical ideas go.. as far as i know, their is nothing in the mitzvah barring lesbian sex, unless it came under incest.. i could be wrong on all counts, and i know a few people who visit this forum know more on judaism/christianity than i do so maybe they can fix it up.. again, i dont agree with it, just clearing up what you said.


some christian translations..

NIV: (New International Version) "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."
KJV: (King James Version): "Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is abomination".
ESV: (English Standard Version): "You shall not lie with a man as with a woman; it is abomination." When quoting the Bible, one must understand the true meaning of what was really trying to be illustrated. As I see it, Leviticus was written at a time when the Jews were in the wilderness and sanitation issues were quite horrendous and one wrong error could mean grave consequences for the "tribe". Health problems that aren't even tought about today ran rampant in the desert during that era. In an effort for the tribe to survive, it had to set down sanitary measures and reproduce itself so that sufficient numbers could "carry-on". Because homosexuality was seen as counterproductive to posterity, it was seen by the Jews (a cultic type people at that time) as an abomination.

One problem fundamentalists have is taking chapter and verse totally out of context to justify their zealousness, bigotry and stubborness. Again one must understand the entire situation at hand before drawing conclusions. In addition to the sites listed in my post above, be sure to check out
www.whosoever.org/bible/index.html (http://www.whosoever.org/bible/index.html)

FTR, you have quoted three versions of the Bible in your entry whose authenticities I must question.(Though I'll confess that I have yet to find a Bible whose authenticity I find acceptable).

[atropine]

well for one, if they were only not homosexual due to sanitation problems and productivity, wouldnt that be saying something about homosexuality. wouldnt that be showing it as an unsanitary and counterproductive thing, in anyday life.? i dont believe that, just stating a case.. im not trying to attack your belief or anything so dont worry.

and yes, especially such the KingJamesVersion, definately wouldnt accept any authenticity from it.. just seemed more common so i added them in..

also i got a broken link.. its probably me though

[WayfaringStranger]

yall hit the nail on the head, leki has to worry more about some dude gettin her up the butt, then she has to worry about being with a woman. i happen to believe in the bible, the message in it, i dont get nitpicky on translations, the way people pervert the bible is not by mistranslating it, its by misinterpreting it. i dont hate gay people, i dont hate people who believe in the bible. i personally feel that sodomy is disgusting, unhealthy, and unnatural, and thats why i dont partake in it. just because there have been advances in the lubricant industry, i dont think thats grounds for rewriting the bible.

[SpliffVortex]

jesus was gay and hung around hookers all that crap added to the bible was done long after he die. jesus was a hippie too.

[atropine]

just stop posting, your an idiot.

[Leki]

Wait I'm confused....

[Leki]

atropinejust stop posting, your an idiot.
who's an idiot? >.< *lost*

[atropine]

splifvortex, complete idiot.

[Sherlock Holmes]

For anyone using the word Sodomy, you have to remember that it was invented between the 17th and 20th centuries. Using it implies that one of the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah was gay sex. Which, if you carefully read the scriptures, is not included in the lists of sins of the two cities. Nor is it found as an actual word in either Greek or Hebrew. Homosexual is also a word created between that period as well and is also not found in either Greek or Hebrew.

I happen to be a gay Christian and I don't for one minute believe that the Bible has not been corrupted or mistranslated in any way. Those two words making it into various translations of the Bible are just one example of proof. And when someone says that they think the Bible has been changed or edited, it does not mean that entire sections have been removed and new things have been put in all over the place. No. What is meant is very simple things, such as adding a word or two, here and there, to make what you are reading easier to understand is corrupting the texts. Taking out a few words or restructuring a sentence to make it look better is corrupting the texts. Not doing very in-depth research into the original texts and making guesses on the meanings of words or sentences is corrupting the texts. Simple things like that can change the meaning of verses or entire areas of the Bible.

One example of a simple change that influenced how the Bible was read for centuries came from a simple mistranslation in the "Exodus from Egypt" story. For over 1,000 years, Christians thought that a great miracle had been performed when Moses apparently parted the Red Sea. But in the last few years, an error in the translations has been discovered. The word wasn't "Red" Sea at all. All this time is had been the "Reed" Sea. This made much more sense to historians and Biblical scholars. The Reed Sea, or Sea of Reeds, in Egypt, made a much more likely place for the Crossing. But a simply mistranslation so many years ago affected the telling of the story ever since.

There is clear evidence of editing done to the texts during the 12th and 13th centuries when the Church wanted to go over the translations again and produce the Bible into more languages as perfectly as possible. But by this time, the ideas between that era and the era when the books were written already a large gap between them. Also by this time many new ideas were starting to circulate, and it is more than plausible to think that new ideas may have made it into the Bible at some point, especially during the oncomming Renaissance.

That verse somewhere in the Bible that says that "the Bible is the uncorrupted word of God and that God would punish anyone who tried to change it", is an almost empty threat. There is, however, a very real punishment outside of the being "struck down dead on the spot" punishment. This punishment is what the changes to the Bible have done to successive generations of Christians who have embraced them without even realizing that what they may be reading is false or edited and acting them out. Examples of this punishment are the Crusades, The Spanish Inquisition, the fight FOR slavery, witch hunts, the idea that women should have no say in government and be governed by men, the fight against the Civil Rights movement, and now its the fight against gay rights. In each and every case, the Bible was used to justify ideas and was used to defend the ideas they were being preached. in most cases, the ideas were later considered crazy and were abandoned. And today, most of the ideas in the Bible that supported those times of upheaval have been abandoned now that we know better.

And how is it practical to pick out any law or idea from any place in the Bible and apply it to a modern situation, while ignoring all verses around that one and never digging deeply into its actual meaning. The ideas and laws of then and today are much different, and to say that they are automatically the same is very foolhardy. And while a verse or idea may look clear and concise to the ordinary Christian, people who look deeper into meanings can see things very differently.

Homosexuality and the Bible (http://www.lionking.org/%7Ekovu/bible/toc.html)

I'll enclose this website which really changed my opinions about the Bible for the good. If it wasn't for this site, I might have become an atheist. For the last couple of years, since leaving my mom's church, I thought of the Bible as an outdated bunch of religious doctrines, Conservative in its views, and not worth the paper they were written. But after finding this site, I realized that the Bible is not actually condemning monogamous gay relationships at all, so it couldn't be all that bad in other aspects. If you study the original texts and look at more than just the verses used for condemning people, which is a sin to do to begin with, you'll see that it is not as simple as "It is true, for it is written."

If you are not reading in-depth into what you want to preach, than you will do more damage than good. If you are completely misinterpreting what you are reading, then what you teach will be flawed and those flawed ideas will pass onto others and so on down the line.

[The World of Dan]

Do Buddist's or Pagen's (ect.) go to hell as well?I can't talk for buddists, but I know that neopagans don't believe in hell... They generally don't believe in the idea of any set rules for humanity within the universe - some believe in gods, anothers don't, but even the ones that do believe in gods, believe they are all PART of the universe (like us), and not the creators of the universe, so they are not in a position to dish out rules to people. Another pagan view is that there is no devil, no evil god, no one trying to tempt people into doing bad, etc..

So, because of this, we make their own rules, while trying to cause as little harm to everyone else as they can (it's just a matter of respect, you'd not want someone else to cause harm to you, so in return, you don't cause harm to them).

So you need to ask yourself, is your being homosexual hurting anyone? the answer is no, so you go ahead, and feel free to be homosexual...

[Nisha]

i have not read every single post on here...

but.. you shouldnt just follow whats written on a piece of tissue paper. i asked my religion teacher and she said that throughout the centuries, many little laws have been added in- not by jesus.. but by people...

if the christian god says that it will love everyone and that it called everyone into being- choosing all their attributes and everything... then it shouldnt be against homosexuals. there is nothing wrong with being a homosexual or a bisexual...

okay yeah.

[thespeez]

For anyone using the word Sodomy, you have to remember that it was invented between the 17th and 20th centuries. Using it implies that one of the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah was gay sex. Which, if you carefully read the scriptures, is not included in the lists of sins of the two cities. Nor is it found as an actual word in either Greek or Hebrew. Homosexual is also a word created between that period as well and is also not found in either Greek or Hebrew.

I happen to be a gay Christian and I don't for one minute believe that the Bible has not been corrupted or mistranslated in any way. Those two words making it into various translations of the Bible are just one example of proof. And when someone says that they think the Bible has been changed or edited, it does not mean that entire sections have been removed and new things have been put in all over the place. No. What is meant is very simple things, such as adding a word or two, here and there, to make what you are reading easier to understand is corrupting the texts. Taking out a few words or restructuring a sentence to make it look better is corrupting the texts. Not doing very in-depth research into the original texts and making guesses on the meanings of words or sentences is corrupting the texts. Simple things like that can change the meaning of verses or entire areas of the Bible.

One example of a simple change that influenced how the Bible was read for centuries came from a simple mistranslation in the "Exodus from Egypt" story. For over 1,000 years, Christians thought that a great miracle had been performed when Moses apparently parted the Red Sea. But in the last few years, an error in the translations has been discovered. The word wasn't "Red" Sea at all. All this time is had been the "Reed" Sea. This made much more sense to historians and Biblical scholars. The Reed Sea, or Sea of Reeds, in Egypt, made a much more likely place for the Crossing. But a simply mistranslation so many years ago affected the telling of the story ever since.
Well said! It's nice to see some intelligence here! FTR, I think that this thread should be posted in the 'Religion' section as well.
There is clear evidence of editing done to the texts during the 12th and 13th centuries when the Church wanted to go over the translations again and produce the Bible into more languages as perfectly as possible. But by this time, the ideas between that era and the era when the books were written already a large gap between them. Also by this time many new ideas were starting to circulate, and it is more than plausible to think that new ideas may have made it into the Bible at some point, especially during the oncomming Renaissance.

That verse somewhere in the Bible that says that "the Bible is the uncorrupted word of God and that God would punish anyone who tried to change it", is an almost empty threat. There is, however, a very real punishment outside of the being "struck down dead on the spot" punishment. This punishment is what the changes to the Bible have done to successive generations of Christians who have embraced them without even realizing that what they may be reading is false or edited and acting them out. Examples of this punishment are the Crusades, The Spanish Inquisition, the fight FOR slavery, witch hunts, the idea that women should have no say in government and be governed by men, the fight against the Civil Rights movement, and now its the fight against gay rights. In each and every case, the Bible was used to justify ideas and was used to defend the ideas they were being preached. in most cases, the ideas were later considered crazy and were abandoned. And today, most of the ideas in the Bible that supported those times of upheaval have been abandoned now that we know better.

And how is it practical to pick out any law or idea from any place in the Bible and apply it to a modern situation, while ignoring all verses around that one and never digging deeply into its actual meaning. The ideas and laws of then and today are much different, and to say that they are automatically the same is very foolhardy. And while a verse or idea may look clear and concise to the ordinary Christian, people who look deeper into meanings can see things very differently.One of the things that churches (and individuals) that identify themselves as christian is that they have a difficult time tearing themselves away from a literal and/or dogmatic interpretation of scripture. As I've said before, alot of this happened during the fourth century with the council of nicea when bishops and other clergy who had more of a political than a spiritual agenda did their best to try to manipulate church doctrine for centuries to come! I also tend to believe that many churches of a fundamentalist bent seem to thrive on what I'll call 'hate campaigns.' These faults as well as the ones that you've mentioned above involve the violation of at least three of the ten comandments if you think about it. In addition to violating the commandment forbidding murder, these individuals have also violated the commandments forbidding adultery and using the Lord's name in vain!


Homosexuality and the Bible (http://www.lionking.org/%7Ekovu/bible/toc.html)

I'll enclose this website which really changed my opinions about the Bible for the good. If it wasn't for this site, I might have become an atheist. For the last couple of years, since leaving my mom's church, I thought of the Bible as an outdated bunch of religious doctrines, Conservative in its views, and not worth the paper they were written. But after finding this site, I realized that the Bible is not actually condemning monogamous gay relationships at all, so it couldn't be all that bad in other aspects. If you study the original texts and look at more than just the verses used for condemning people, which is a sin to do to begin with, you'll see that it is not as simple as "It is true, for it is written."

If you are not reading in-depth into what you want to preach, than you will do more damage than good. If you are completely misinterpreting what you are reading, then what you teach will be flawed and those flawed ideas will pass onto others and so on down the line.
Like you, I went through a period when I turned to atheism (or agnosticism) for a while when I was in my early teens. It was an enlightened catholic priest who 'shed light' on issues that I had never thought about before who began to change my mind about things. In more recent years, I became more interested in religious matters as two friends returned to church. One of these guys turned to a monotheistic based Unitarian-Universalist congregation, the other went to what I'll call a "soft-core" fundamentalist church. I went to church once with my friend that joined the fundamentalist church and found it to be undesireable. I was friends with a local UU congegation for several years, but found their doctrine bereft of any real spiritual substance.

I've noticed very often that many of the followers that the fundamentalist/evangelical churches attract are individuals who had a history of addictions (i.e. drugs, alcohol, etc.), or individuals who are a bit weak-willed.

With the way that christianity has been manipulated over the centuries, It's understandable why some people choose to "throw the baby out with the bathwater" and turn their back on the faith. As such, I think that religious liberals should try to do their best to reach disenfranchised people and others, band together and do their best to beat the fundamentalists at their own games. There are more people that fall under this category besides homosexuals. Religious condemnation affects people of many diverse backgrounds. All in all, excellent points you've made here.

www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/culinks.html (http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/culinks.html)
www.americanunitarian.org (http://www.americanunitarian.org/)

[SageDreamer]

The best "religion" is based on love rather than fear.
That's why I am not a fundamentalist.

[StarFaerie]

Really the most you will find about hoimosexuality in the Bible is in leviticus, which also says that a woman can't talk to God except through her father or husband. It says a lot of fucked up things in leviticus. The Bible is obvioulsy littered with greedy men writing stuff that will keep them in power. Sure God tried to inspire them, but they were just guys, and their opinions and the opinions of society at the time are in there. Do you really think the creator of the world hates the women It created or the gay people It created? Do you really think such a powerful spirit has a penis? I mean come on, the stuff about hate and unequality in the Bible isn't from God! It should be obvious! Plus, I've seen a bunch of people explain quite well about all the passages supposedly about gays is really about sexual promiscuity, adultery, stuff like that, not a commited relationship. I'll try to look for it.

[thespeez]

One of the other things that you must consider when reading the Bible is understanding what people's shortcomings were in their understanding. What the bible also tries to illustrate are these shortcomings in understanding. And while I'm at it, when studying scripture, we must also try to understand what the language meant at the time and the situation at hand and try not to draw conclusions so soon!

Had to get this in.

[Lagidae]

Most people base their disapproval of homosexuality alleging that the Bible &, therefore, God, states that homosexuality is an abominable sin prohibited by God under penalty of damnation.

The above allegation is a lie.

The Bible has been incorrectly translated and, consequentely, incorrectly interpreted.

The original Bible wasn’t written in English or any modern language. It was written in ancient Hebrew, a form of ancient Greek known as “koine” & some parts in Aramaic.

Many homophobes, including self-anointed fundamentalist preachers who got their title of “reverend” out of a box of Crackerjacks & who don’t know how to speak, write or read any of the original languages of the Bible, quote passages from the Bible containing the English words “homosexual” or “sodomite.”

However, according to http://www.humanbeing.demon.nl/humanbeingsweb/Library/randall.htm: (http://www.humanbeing.demon.nl/humanbeingsweb/Library/randall.htm:)

“...The term homosexual was introduced in 1869 by a Hungarian physician called Karoly Maria Benkert, who wrote under the pseudonym of K. M. Kertbeny...”

Homophobes like to squawk repetively like autistic parrots the following passage as proof of Bilbical condemnation of homosexuality:

“...I Corinthians 6:9: The unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God. So do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the realm of God."

Author's Note: The Greek words translated "effeminate" and "homosexual" do not mean effeminate or homosexual!

...The English word "homosexual" is a composite word made from a Greek term (homo, "the same") and a Latin term (sexualis , "sex"). The term "homosexual" is of modern origin and was not used until about 100 years ago. There is no word in biblical Greek or Hebrew that is parallel to the word "homosexual." No Bible before the Revised Standard Version in 1946 used "homosexual" in any Bible translation.

The word translated as "homosexual" or "sexual pervert" or some other similar term is Greek arsenokoites, which was formed from two words meaning "male" and "bed". This word is not found anywhere else in the Bible and has not been found anywhere in the contemporary Greek of Paul's time. We do not know what it means. The word is obscure and uncertain. It probably refers to male prostitutes with female customers, which was a common practice in the Roman world, as revealed in the excavations at Pompeii and other sites...

The complete version of the above quotes are available at
http://truluck.com/html/six_bible_passages.html. (http://truluck.com/html/six_bible_passages.html.)


The King James Version of Deuteronomy 23:17-18 reads:

“...There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel...”

HOWEVER, the original Hebrew reads:

“...i, lo'-thihyeh qedhêshâh mibbenoth yisrâ'êl velo'-yihyeh qâdhêshm ibbenêy yisrâ'êl...”

Take notice of the words “qedhêshâh” & “qâdhêshm” in the above Hebrew passage. “Qedhêshâh” is the femenine noun in Hebrew for temple prostitute & “qâdhêshm” is the masculine noun in Hebrew for temple prostitute.

Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary (http://www.jcsm.org/StudyCenter/kjvstrongs/STRHEB69.htm)
defines “qadesh” as “...qadesh kaw-dashe' - from 'qadash' (6942); a (quasi) sacred person, i.e. (technically) a (male) devotee (by prostitution) to licentious idolatry:-- sodomite, unclean...

Therefore, why did the translators of the original Hebrew mistranslate the male noun “qâdhêshm” as Sodomite instead of male whore when they translated the female noun “qedhêshâh” as whore?

Homophobic discrimination is the answer.

Take note that the Hebrew word for Sodom is S’dom according to
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-hebrew/2004-February/017145.html: (http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-hebrew/2004-February/017145.html:) “...Sodom (Hebrew: > S'dom)...”

There are no combinations of letters spelling S’dom or variaition thereof such as Sodomite in the original Hebrew version of Deuteronomy 23: 17-18, therefore, Sodomite is a purposeful mistranslation. Got it? Get it.

Therefore, the correct translation should read:

“There shall be no female temple prostitute of the daughters of Israel nor a male temple prostitute of the sons of Israel...”

The Bible did not fall out of heaven written in English or in any other modern language but, rather, in ancient Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. The Latin version of the Bible was used several hundred years ago to translate the original Hebrew version of the Bible into English, Spanish, French, German, Italian, etc., and many present day experts in ancient languages do not agree with the translations of past translators.


Mistranslations spawn misinterpretations.


The point of all this being, as one who all his life has been speaking, reading & writing in ancient Hebrew, original language of the Bible, 2 Samuel 1: Rabbi Gershon Caudill states

http://hometown.aol.com/ecorebbe/myhomepage/rant.html :

“...Over the past decade, I have been involved in a study of the so-called anti-homosexual texts of Leviticus in the original Hebrew versions extant, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and with the help of a Catholic Priest and a Protestant Biblical Languages student at Emory University, I have studied translations of the Greek and Latin texts.

This study has involved reviewing Talmudic texts and other materials of a collateral nature to the subject matter being studied; history, anthropology, archaeology, philology, and etymology, to name but a few.

As a result of my research, I am convinced of two things.

1. THE ORIGINAL HEBREW TEXTS HAD ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH HOMOSEXUALITY!"


Furthermore, in king David, in his own words recorded for eternity in the inerrant Bible, publicly confesses his homosexual relationship with Jonathan by stating that his love for Jonathan surpassed the love of women.

(1) 1 Samual, Chapter 17,(love at first sight), “1 And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul.

(2) 1 Samuel 20: 30, (father calls son faggot & blames the mother) “...Then Saul's anger was kindled against Jonathan, and he said unto him, Thou son of the perverse rebellious woman, do not I know that thou hast chosen the son of Jesse to thine own confusion, and unto the confusion of thy mother's nakedness?’

(3) 2 Samuel 1: 26 "...I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women.

I repeat, “PASSING the love of WOMEN.”

In any case, considering David's murder of Bathsheba's husband so he could have her as another wife in his harem, it's safe to say David was a bisexual like many kings in ancient history, although, the Bible doesn't state he created a public spectacle for the death of any of his wives and concubines like he did for the death of his homosexual lover, Jonathan.

Although, there is NOT YET conclusive evidence, there are indications from scientific investigations that homosexuality is genetic, therefore, as what regards natural vs unnatural, freewill & alleged “chosen” lifestyles, when the “gay gene” is, at last, identified, the Church will have a lot to answer for all the physical pain through torture, incarceration & execution of members of the gay community throughout the centuries as well as the spiritual terrorism it has inflicted on the homosexual community by preaching hell fire & eternal damnation for those who have been biologically programmed to a homosexual orientation.

The Last Judgement will, indeed, be quite a surprise for many a modern Bible thumping homophobic Pharisee.

[The World of Dan]

LISTIN YOU FUCKING QUEERS BEING A DAMN FAGGOT IS A SIN...IT CLEARLY STATES IT IN THE BIBLE DUMBFUCKS...AND TO GO TO HEAVEN YOU ONLY HAVE TO BE SAVED U FUCKIN DUMBASSES....CALL JESUS CHRIST INTO YOUR HEART AS YOUR SAVIOR AND BELIEVE HE DIED ON THE CROSS FOR YOU AND HIS BLOOD WASHES AWAY ALL SIN SO U CAN GO TO HEAVEN....YOU MAY BE GAY AND THINK YOUR A CHRISTIAN BUT YOU'RE NOT....REPENT OF YOUR SINS....YOU CAN GIT INTO HEAVEN IF YOU ARE SAVED...sorry about the name calling i just got pissed at this blasphemy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!lol - someone's about to be banned.

[The World of Dan]

lol, this is great... keep it coming, the more abuse you give, the quicker you get banned...

[Lagidae]

Well, lookie, over yonder, Clem, looks like some Baaaaaaahble thumping homophobe just had a Tourette's Syndrom attack. I just love it when that happens. Makes me feel like taking a crowbar over to their cage & just run back & forth banging it across the bars. Oh, cackle.


Now proceeding to the topic of homosexuality in nature or as religious homophobes like to repeat like budhist parrots reciting their mantras that homosexuality is "contra natura" or against nature, let me point out the followng.

This homophobe pet phrase, "contra natura" translates "against nature" as if homosexuality is against the laws of nature. Abundant empirical evidence betrays this premise that homosexuality is "contra natura" as being FALSE.

In Bruce Bagemihl’s 572-page book, "Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality & Natural Diversity," nominated in 1999 for a Pulitzer Prize, contains 200 years of scientific observations of animal behavior in hundreds of species both in the wild & in captivity of homosexuality in animals from insects to reptiles, to birds to mammals, including the most intelligent species such as primates & dolphins.

There are many documented scientific observations in Bagemihl's book of animals engaging in homosexual acts in the wild even in the presence of abundant sexual partners of the opposite sex, therefore, homosexuality is a natural sexual orientation in the animal kingdom which is not the result of cultural conditions such as sexual identification due to parental role models or lack thereof.

The Bighorn Sheep in the U.S. live in sexually segregated herds for all of the year except for the rutting season when males seek the females. However, the rest of the year, male-to-male sexual copulation is the norm among male Bighorn Sheep. Not always is a dominant or older male the mounter but will allow themselves to be mounted by younger males.

From the online magazine, Science Daily, Date: 2004-03-09 at
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/03/040309073256.htm

"...Biology Behind Homosexuality In Sheep, Study Confirms...

...A study published in the February issue of the journal Endocrinology demonstrates that not only are certain groups of cells different between genders in a part of the sheep brain controlling sexual behavior, but brain anatomy and hormone production may determine whether adult rams
prefer other rams over ewes...

"Same-sex attraction is widespread across many different species." said Roselli, whose laboratory collaborated with the Department of Animal Sciences at Oregon State University and the USDA Agricultural Research Service's U.S. Sheep Experiment Station in Dubois, Idaho.

Kay Larkin, Ph.D., an OHSU electron microscopist who performed laboratory analysis for the study, said scientists now have a marker that points to whether a ram may prefer other rams over ewes.

"There's a difference in the brain that is correlated with partner preference rather than gender of the animal you're looking at," she said. About 8 percent of domestic rams display preferences for other males as sexual partners.

Scientists don't believe it's related to dominance or flock hierarchy; rather, their typical motor pattern for intercourse is merely directed at rams instead of ewes..."

Furthermore, God in his infinite wisdom also created + ta - da! + lesbian lizards.

See http://www.nerve.com/Regulars/ScienceOfSex/09-19-00/09-19-00.asp

"...On a parched, wind-swept lakebed in southeastern Arizona, within earshot of the trucks hurtling by on Interstate 10, a strange experiment of nature is playing itself out ———— an experiment that might shock moral conservatives but should delight lesbian separatists everywhere. Two species of whiptail lizards have interbred, producing a new, all-female species. These animals have sex with each other and produce baby lizards without any help from males. And the babies grow up to be lesbian too.

Zoologist David Crews of the University of Texas at Austin discovered the
unusual sexual behavior of Cnemidophorus uniparens, as the all-female species is called, in the late 1970s, and has been working on them ever since. Crews doesn't use the word "lesbian" ———— he prefers the neutrality of scientific jargon like "parthenogenetic unisexual pseudocopulators" ———— but it's hard to ignore the parallels..."

Well, Crews may not use the word "lesbian" but I betcha plenty of homophobes would call these natural creatures of God sodomites.

[Lagidae]

Greetings Everyone.

I'm considering bringing in some new gay Christians to populate this thread. They are, as I am, presently members of a gay Christian online web site which is a bit conservative and tends to have too much moderator input censoring the free flow of opinion and individual and original writing styles.

Are there any regular gay Christians members of this thread still around?

There seems to not have been much conversation in this Christian Gays thread in quite a while.

Anyway, these Hip Forums have a great format with so many extra goodies in the way of choices of font, size, colors, smilies, etc.

I hope we can revive this thread with new gay Christian members.

See ya soon!

[Dr Death (the DJ)]

I think my faith rejoices anyone sex.

[Sherlock Holmes]

I'm still around. Though I am not an active poster anymore. I've been going through an anti-message board phase for a while. Probably from too much stress at home.

It's a shame though. I'm not as active on the Gay Christian site I am a member of as I would like to be.

www.gaychristian.net (http://www.gaychristian.net)

[EmoLover122]

I believe that god also accepts you for who you are. But so many religous leaders say that we go to hell bc guys likes guys and girls like girls? thats bullshit. But anyway do i think that ill go to hell bc i like guys? no i dont at all.

[MSman]

remember, the bible wasnt written by God, it was written by men. excluding a few books in the bible (the Gospels, Acts, Judges-2 Kings) all of this is a single mans opinion or what he wants every1 to do. A ton of the bible was changed when Rome made it their offical religon.

[SpliffVortex]

Cant wait to go to hell since all my friends are there .
http://www.remember.org/image/aronson/hell.jpg

[SpliffVortex]

I believe that God loves everyone and doesnt care what peoples preferances are. As long as they're good christians we will go to heavenhttp://cte.jhu.edu/techacademy/web/2000/baczkowski/Kristina/hell.jpg.

[SpliffVortex]

splifvortex, complete idiot.http://www.irtc.org/ftp/pub/stills/2003-08-31/sunsetma.jpg.

[Lagidae]

Hi Sherlock!

Has your stress at home situation kept you away from the gay network you linked in your message above, as well?

With what other online gay Christian forums/websites are you familiar and which one would you recommend?

I've been checking out gay Christian websites in Europe but haven't joined any to date.

I really like the extra features these Hip Forums offer with regards to choice of fonts, colors, smilies, etc.

That wacky 700 Club televangelist, Pat Robertson, has forgotten the commandment that says, "Thou shalt not kill."

American Christian ayatollah, Pat Robertston, has issued a fatwa (religious order of
execution) against legally elected president of Venezuela, Hugo Chavez.

From
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10 :

"...We have the ability to take him out, and I think the time has come to exercise that ability,' Robertson said yesterday on the program, an audiotape of which was posted on the Web site of the Christian Broadcasting Network, founded by the cleric and based in Virginia Beach, Virginia. "This is a dangerous enemy to our south controlling a huge pool of oil.''

Robertson said that Chavez is going to make Venezuela a "launching pad for communist infiltration and Muslim extremism all over the continent.'' Killing Chavez, who is currently visiting Cuba, would be cheaper than starting a war, he said...”

During a past hurricane threat to Florida, Ayatollah Pat Robertson prayed along with many of his extreme fundamentalist sect that the hurricane hit Orlando, Florida, because of acceptance of the gay tourist $$$market$$$. Instead, the hurricane hit the area of Florida in which was located one of Ayatollah Pat Robertson's regional offices.

Pity, Ayatollah Pat Robertson's spin on that wasn't made public in a press release.

Such madness.

[Bassist]

There is no hell.

[drew172]

im pretty sure that anyone who doesnt act like they've got a stick in their ass is goin to hell according the the big christ lovers society or soething like that.....oh wait this is the gay forum.....well i didnt mean any offence about the stick thing, but you know what i mean right?

[canadian_boy]

There is no hell and no paradise .

[SageDreamer]

Pagans--as a pretty good general rule--don't believe in hell.



Hell is a Christian construct.



There is a great deal of disagreement among Christians and among Pagans on these issues.

I would imagine that most Christians would agree that there are plenty of heterosexuals in hell as well as homosexuals.

[hailtothekingbaby]

*belch*

Jesus sucks. I've even heard he must've been quite good in his day.

Anyway, you won't go to hell even if you'd put all straight people in camps and gass them.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Well, the situation at home certainly isn't helping me want to go to the site more often.

I'm afraid that www.gaychristian.net is the only gay Christian site that I ever visit.

[Lagidae]

Hi Sherlock.


I used to frequent a Christian website with a forum with different threads. I mentioned the fact that I am a gay Christian and someone responded that there was no such thing.

I thought it was hilarious but I, also, thought how tragic for the homosexual community to have to contend with so many ignorant bigots who insist on spirtitual terrorism against gays and lesbians in organized religion and who are lobbying Capitol Hill to legislate against the human rights of the homosexual community.

At least, in Europe, a few truly enlightened societies such as those of Holland and Spain have legalized gay marriages and all present members and would be members of the European Union have to decriminalize consensual homosexual acts between adults.

A ray of this bright light of enlightenment has reached Canada and even peeked into the U.S. Supreme Court: legalized gay marriages in Canada and official declaration of anti-sodomy laws as being unconstitutional in the USA.

'Tis better to light a single candle than to curse the darkness.

[Kabbalist]

The Last Judgement will, indeed, be quite a surprise for many a modern Bible thumping homophobic Pharisee.
I love you :)

[Kabbalist]

Something interesting I found on the net.





Various interpretations of Leviticus 20:13:


Conservative Christians generally interpret the passage as condemning all male homosexual activity. Some would extend it to lesbians as well. A comment on the capital punishment aspect of this passage by an Evangelical authority is:


T.Crater: stated that the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) are a covenant between God and Israel, which also set up a civil state and decreed its laws. The Christian Scriptures (New Testament) is an agreement "between God and a multinational body called the church. It is not a state, so it doesn't engage in state functions like capital punishment." Thus, the death penalty called for in Leviticus 20:13 is no longer binding for Christians.


Liberal Christians Some comments on the death penalty aspect of this passage by pastors and academics taking a liberal position are:


J. Nelson: "It is grounded in the old Jewish understanding that women are less worthy than men. For a man to have sex with another man 'as with a woman' insults the other man, because women are to be treated as property." She added that this passage is not part of the 10 Commandments, but merely part of almost 600 additional rules put forth via Israel's religious leaders.

D. Bartlett: "Nobody I know, even the most conservative, is saying homosexuals should be executed. I think people who think they take the Bible literally don't take it so literally as to want to execute people."

Krister Stendahl: "If you look at the whole chapter, a lot of things come in for capital punishment that no Southern Baptist would argue that capital punishment is appropriate for. So their reading is a little selective."

Many religious liberals believe that this passage does not refer to all homosexual behavior, but only to a specific form of homosexual prostitution - that performed in a Pagan temple.

National Gay Pentecostal Alliance (NGPA) interpretation: They state that a word-for-word translation of this verse from the original Hebrew is: "And a man who will lie down with a male in beds of a woman, both of them have made an abomination; dying they will die. Their blood is on them."

In modern English this could be translated as:

"If two men engage in homosexual sex while on a woman's bed, both have committed an abomination. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

This does not generally forbid homosexual behavior between two men. It only limits where the act can be done.

[Lagidae]

Evening Kabbalist.

Loving you back, kiddo. :p

What a keauxinsidense, I'm reading Perle Epstein's book, "Kabbalah - The Way of the Jewish Mystic."

I'll respond to your above post tomorrow or Saturday I was in bed listening to http://www.airamericaradio.com (http://www.airamericaradio.com/) and laughing my nuts off listening online to Mike Malloy tearing "Reverend" Pat Robertson limb from limb when I remembered to check my email and decided to check out the Hip Forums.

Good night everyone.

[Wayne]

I'm not christian, but if all chr&icirc;stians say that god craates everything in the world, then homosexuallity must be created by God. how can someone hate what he create?

[Lagidae]

I've been very busy, however, I found a new gay Christian web site which, I hope, many of you will like.

It's http://home.wanadoo.nl/inspiritus/indexdec.htm

[Lodui]

I'm straight and an atheist, so I dunno if I can give you any advice that'll make you feel better.

But anyone who would tell you you're immoral for having feelings for someone else is simply wrong. There are no lies between you and god. http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[lutsko67]

I Am A Catholic And Raised In A Very Strict Catholic House Hold .... I Know The Bible Like The Back Of My Hand................now After Saying That.............i Do Not Agree We Are Going 2 Hell 4 Being Gay. I Personally Feel If Lovin Some 1 Wholeheartedly, Is The Greatest Love Of All! Then How Can That Be Soooooooooooo Wrong ? I Believe In God And Yes She Is A Hottie 2!!!!!! If U Love Some 1 For Themselves , Then How Can Lovin Any 1 Reguardless Of Their Sexual Oruientation Be Punishable By Going 2 Hell. I Belive There Is A Reason 4 Everything , And If Im Going 2 Hell When I Die .well.....................at Least Im Happy Now Livin And Lovin My Woman !!!!!!!

[Snowdancer]

I think that both recognize that love between two people is a sacred thing & that love is more important than getting all hung up on the gender issue. Each has their own take on it but the concept is the same as far as I can tell. Bedsides neither Buddists or Pagans buy into this Hell as a place thing
The ultimate goal in Buddist tradition is to reach Nirvana. You hae many lives to attain that goal. If you live a good life your next life will be that much closer & it will be a better life than the one you are in. Live a bad life & the opposite is true.

Wehn you say Pagan that has become a pretty wide encompassing term. Many Pagans believe as I do a mixture of things so the reincarnation thing still fits in. There are variations of course including I suppose for lack of better term Fundalmentalist Pagans but I know for a fact that a Fundalmentalist Pagan is far more accepting of others than a Fundalmentalist Christian & still believes that the love is the important thing.

Just a random thought but....I'm Christian, and both of my parents are Christian but I'm bi. So according to the bible I'm going to hell when I die. I don't really beleive that, and don't really care. >.< Do Buddist's or Pagen's (ect.) go to hell as well?

[JackBond]

I've been Christian for 15 years now, and it's all I know. I used to hate myself for being gay, but I'm getting used to it...

However, I constantly have this gut wrenching feeling that no matter which way I decide to go, I'm gonna be wrong.

If I decide to live a Christian life and give up boys forever, I might waste my life away on a religion that may not even be right.

If I give in and do whatever I want, giving up religion forever, not only will I have wasted 15 years of my life, but I'll possibly live the rest of eternity in an unbearable pit of fire and suffering.

I really have no idea what I can do, and while I know the easiest answer is, "Just do what feels right" Could I get a bit more insight please?

[yarapario]

Although its a long and difficult book to read, find the book: Christianity Social Tolerance and Homosexuality by John Boswell. There are many people who struggle with exactly the feelings you describe. Boswell's book explores early Christianity and finds that being gay was completely accepted by the church for years. Jesus himself said nothing about same sex relations, and much of the condemnation of homosexual behavior has been inserted into the bible through deliberate mistranslation of the early text. In short, you can be exactly who you are, a Christian boy who loves other boys. If you want to check out some stuff on the web try MyOutSpirit.com GaySpiritually Blog. What ever you do, you are NOT "gonna be wrong". You are a young child of God trying to find your place as God made you and in a world of confusion made by man. Take care of you...you are as you are supposed to be.

[*Andy*]

You can be Christian and gay! Irrational fundementalist beliefs are telling you otherwise, yet you need not abide by these values.

Yarapario put it very well. Just be yourself. Follow your religion and your sexuality and feel no guilt for either :)

[Samhain]

I've been Christian for 15 years now, and it's all I know. I used to hate myself for being gay, but I'm getting used to it...

However, I constantly have this gut wrenching feeling that no matter which way I decide to go, I'm gonna be wrong.

If I decide to live a Christian life and give up boys forever, I might waste my life away on a religion that may not even be right.

If I give in and do whatever I want, giving up religion forever, not only will I have wasted 15 years of my life, but I'll possibly live the rest of eternity in an unbearable pit of fire and suffering.

I really have no idea what I can do, and while I know the easiest answer is, "Just do what feels right" Could I get a bit more insight please?
Hi JackBond, I've merged your thread onto this as I believe they are discussing and reflecting on the questions you have just asked.

Now people on here have asked what the pagan belief is concerning this, I believe that the majority of pagans would probably be ok with homosexuality (do what you will but hurt none) some of the more fundamental pagans may believe that it is an insult to the goddess and god, however I think they would still believe that it would be up to the individual concerned to face their karmic lesson concerning their sexuality and although their lessons may not always be easy, they wouldn't be damned for eternity.

my own thoughts are that the goddess and god are a representatuion of the sacred feminine and masculine and that it actually balances its self out over all, so while there are masculine couples there are feminine couples as well and anyway it goes way beyond are physical sex
S

[JackBond]

But yarapario, why would God make ONLY men and women physically compatible and then say it's okay to break that design? I'm not really looking for a way to fit being gay into my Christian beliefs, 'cause I personally believe it can't be done. I'd love to believe it more than anything, but same sex relationships seem completely wrong by human design.

[Samhain]

But yarapario, why would God make ONLY men and women physically compatible and then say it's okay to break that design? I'm not really looking for a way to fit being gay into my Christian beliefs, 'cause I personally believe it can't be done. I'd love to believe it more than anything, but same sex relationships seem completely wrong by human design.
Sounds like your trying to convince yourself that its wrong, I am physically compatable with my partner, I don't care what you or your version of god has to say about that and if your version of being physically compatable means having children, how many people in the world are having sex and not intending on having children, anal intercourse isn't unknown with straight couples you know, its very popular.
you might as well ask yourself why would god make gay people, is it to be really miserable while they try not to be gay?
and if your going to tell me god didn't make you gay, then its very easy choose not to be.
Its sounds to me like the majority of people on this thread actually do feel like same sex relationships can go with being homosexual and if you allowed yourself you might get a sense of relief from this, instead of just throwing it back in peoples faces
S

[yarapario]

Well Jack, I really can't answer for God but here are my thoughts. Gay folks can't compare their sexual satisfaction to the male/female model. We, as gay people, satisfy and please each other differently. Its my feeling that when it comes to oral sex, only a guy can truely understand how to provide pleasure to another guy. Anal sex,I suppose, kind of approaches M/F intercourse and for some thats very pleasureable. So, where do Gay folks find the compatibility? Maybe for some of us its more of a spiritual thing or sharing of a bond than just the pure physical pleasure. Maybe its just the sweet comfort of holding and caring for another man, the warmth, the smell or the strength of being with another human who is made like I am. I don't dream that I'll be able to answer this question for you... It is far too great a question. It's the kind of question that comes from deep inside the soul...who am I...why was I born the way I am.
As a young boy brought up in the Cathoic Church, I never even thought about the right or wrong of my pleasure when having sex with another boy...it just felt right at the very core of my soul to enjoy another body...to give and receive pleasure as the two of us knew the other would respond to. As I grew older the nuns and priest named my love as a Mortal Sin...the go straight to hell type. God, I suffered so.I wanted God to love me, I was a good kid, I helped my parents and loved them dearly. I was kind to others. Yet I had to go to hell if I were to express physical love the way my heart and soul told me i needed to. I questioned God, of course...probably wasn't a God, all that teaching in the church was probably just crap. Somewhere along the line I began to realize that, in my view of the world, God did exist. Not as taught by the church but as felt by my soul. I turned then on religion and began to realize it was more a product of man than a true way of pleasing God. I found God in nature,in the beauty of the world around me. I found what God had best designed me to do...to care for others. I found a way to make my life rich and meaningful without sexually reproducing in a physically compatable way. Through lots of prayer, contemplation and meditation, I placed my sexual pleasure as a meaqnigful and pleasureable part of the whole man that I am. I love having sex with another man. I also love living my life as a whole person just the way God designed me. Gay folks are different, we have to think more about our fit in the fabric of life. And that, Young Jack, is the job you are facing now. How do you JackBond, live your life true to yourself. Please read the book I metioned. It may help you begin to balance what seems to be opposing forces in your life.
Sure went on a long time didn't I? Ahh well, You posed a great question with no easy answer. I love you young man. I love you because you are alive and squirming in your skin...trying to figure out what it all means... Good for you. Please feel free to ask more if anything I said makes sense and take care of you. Steve

[hailtothekingbaby]

It's about what you believe, not what the church says you should believe. The church is not God and has no right to tell you what God wants of you.

If your God is a truly loving, understanding one, then would he deny you entrance into heaven for being born as you are?

[JackBond]

*Sniff* Thank you all. Those were some incredibly thoughtful responses. I actually cried a little...

I can think of arguments, but I'm probably just having trouble seperating myself from my beliefs. Now that I'm beginning to see things differently, I've lost all confidence in what I believe... I don't really know what to think...

[Samhain]

*Sniff* Thank you all. Those were some incredibly thoughtful responses. I actually cried a little...

I can think of arguments, but I'm probably just having trouble seperating myself from my beliefs. Now that I'm beginning to see things differently, I've lost all confidence in what I believe... I don't really know what to think...
why don't you investagate some gay churches most areas have them, I have to believe that god wants you to be close to him and except your sexuality at the same time
S

[Samhain]

also I notice your 15, which is an incredably confusing time for most people regardless of sexuality and religion, so just be gentle on ourself, take some time and enjoy the journey
S

[Samhain]

Ok heres some useful threads why don't you explore them?

some info and a discussion of a gay christian organisation

http://www.hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184746

Someone wanting to know if there is any other bi and gay christians out there?

http://www.hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=84343

and Catholic and bi

http://hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226166

as you can see your not alone!

[JackBond]

I read the place where it denounces anti-gay scriptures, and it makes sense in reference to the King James version, but what about the NIV where it says flat out "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman, that is detestable."

Not only is it implying that it's customary to lie with a woman, but it says not to lie with a man in the same way! This is my biggest problem with fitting in my preference with church.

[Samhain]

I read the place where it denounces anti-gay scriptures, and it makes sense in reference to the King James version, but what about the NIV where it says flat out "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman, that is detestable."

Not only is it implying that it's customary to lie with a woman, but it says not to lie with a man in the same way! This is my biggest problem with fitting in my preference with church.
well if you believe the whole of the bible is true word for word, I think your going to have a problem with more than just your sexuality
S

[mushie18]

:agree:

[yarapario]

Jack, again I'm gonna suggest you read the book Christianity, Social Tolerance and Homosexuality. John Boswell, the Author was an accomplished biblical scholar, an historian and fluent in the ancient biblical languages. He was also a devout Catholic. He takes the Condemning passages apart describing the deliberate mistranslations placed in the bible hundreds of years after the death of Christ. Much of the bible reflects politicals whims of corrupt church and state officials. Christ Himself NEVER said anything about hommosexuality and in fact there are biblical scholars who speculate about the realtionship between Jesus and John. You are going to have to read deeper than what is presented in the local church if you want to have any idea of Christ's feelings. The problem with much of todays Christianity is that it has little to do with Christ. Please read and research before you make decsions based on what the churchs serve up as "gospel".

[JackBond]

Hm... I can't really read any books like that, but I'll do some research.

[Samhain]

Hm... I can't really read any books like that, but I'll do some research.
what beacuse of your parents?

whats the legal age of consent for gay men where you are, because you could just relax a little and find yourself in the next few years instead of trying to rush headlong into adulthood
S

[SLeFTaR]

im a muslim and in my religion that cannot be definitely

[hailtothekingbaby]

Well, deciding to stop being gay is impossible, and deciding to stop being a christian is impossible, so I guess you're stuck to both now no matter if you think they go together or not.

Always remember that those who wrote the bible were only human. And since its initial writing, the church has edited it countless times to make it conform to its own agenda, which was one of instilling fear and guilt in the people and maintaining backwards moral values for its own gain.

[hailtothekingbaby]

im a muslim and in my religion that cannot be definitelyHere in Holland we have a famous gay male comedian who is married to a Muslim man (from Algeria, if I remember correctly). It's pretty cute. :)

[SLeFTaR]

Here in Holland we have a famous gay male comedian who is married to a Muslim man (from Algeria, if I remember correctly). It's pretty cute. :)oh man it's so interesting... what is his name?
but don't forget this the exceptions do not break the rule
one they he ll pay it :)
this is his choice :)

[*Andy*]

But yarapario, why would God make ONLY men and women physically compatible and then say it's okay to break that design? I'm not really looking for a way to fit being gay into my Christian beliefs, 'cause I personally believe it can't be done. I'd love to believe it more than anything, but same sex relationships seem completely wrong by human design.Dick + Bumhole = compatible. There you go. Oh and another thing - the male G spot is in the bum so if anything, God made sure that anal sex would feel nice for guys. The implication of which is...Being gay is fine! Two guys are completely compatible. Joyous day.

[hailtothekingbaby]

oh man it's so interesting... what is his name?
but don't forget this the exceptions do not break the rule
one they he ll pay it
this is his choice

Marc-Marie Huijbregts and Karim Talbi. But you got to be nice to them okay? :)

[yarapario]

SLeFTaR, I'm sorry your religion feels so rigid. How do you feel, coming on this site, knowing your religion forbids you to be Gay? Are you looking for some help here? What could any of us do to make things better for you? When you say "he'll pay for it, what does that mean? It sounds a bit threatening.

[Samhain]

SLeFTaR, I'm sorry your religion feels so rigid. How do you feel, coming on this site, knowing your religion forbids you to be Gay? Are you looking for some help here? What could any of us do to make things better for you? When you say "he'll pay for it, what does that mean? It sounds a bit threatening.
Ok I need to make a point here

his religion doesn't forbid, its how he see's his religion
S

[darkain]

The Bible states that Homosexual sex is a sin. But homosexual attraction is not. As long as you don't act on your temptations then you're all good. Christ died for everyone, even gays. May christians don't even see a problem with gays.... much like myself... but I'm kinda on the fence. So the answer is YES, you can be GAY and CHRISTIAN.

[JackBond]

Dick + Bumhole = compatible. There you go. Oh and another thing - the male G spot is in the bum so if anything, God made sure that anal sex would feel nice for guys. The implication of which is...Being gay is fine! Two guys are completely compatible. Joyous day.
I was actually reffering that with male/female sex, there's an actual result, but you got me with the G-spot thing. Also, I've had a much better time conversing with gay-supporters rather than non-gay-supporters, so maybe God's hinting at something. It's hard to relax about this, but I'll try to lay back. I'm young; I have a while to think it through.

Darkain, what's the point of homosexual attraction without sex?

[SLeFTaR]

Araf 80. We also (sent) Lût: He said to his people: "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you?
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Hud 78. And his people came rushing towards him, and they had been long in the habit of practicing abominations. He said: "O my People! Here are my daughters: they are purer for you (if ye marry)! Now fear Allah, and cover me not with disgrace about my guests! Is there not among you a single right-minded man?"
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Hicr 71. Lut said: "There are my daughters (to marry), if ye must act (so)."
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Enbiya 74. And to Lut, too, We gave Judgment and Knowledge, and We saved him from the town which practiced abominations: truly they were a people given to Evil, a rebellious people.
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here is some of the text in the qoran

[async]

I'm Christian and active in my protestant congregation. Christians are supposed to love and not judge or condemn. Only God can judge, we are supposed to love. Anyone that calls themselves a Christian and does not adhere to that is not true to the teachings of Christ. The bible is clear about homosexuality but being gay should not prevent me or any other Christian from loving you just the same.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Jack Bond, I'm a gay Christian and I went through a period of contemplation and suffering when I was a teenager, just like you. In fact, I was about your age at the time. I was raised on certain ideas that were preached and alternatives were never presented. I was taken in by the teachings of my mother's church for years and as a result, I wasn't willing to listen to any other sides of certain issues. It was all one-sided and this was reflected in my conversations with people. If they presented an alternative idea, I wasn't willing to listen to them. I just couldn't see how unreasonable I was being in refusing to listen to all sides of certain issues.

At first I when I became aware of my attraction to other guys, I embraced it naturally as God intended me to. But when I became aware of how my church viewed such a thing, I went deeply into denial for a long time, convinced that what I was feeling was evil based on what I was taught. I became so miserable and confused. I couldn't understand how something that felt so natural could be so wrong. I prayed and prayed to God to change me and take away my "unnatural feelings". And nothing happened. I was more confused than ever by that.

When I was 13 or 14 and struggling heavily with my sexuality and my faith, I had myself committed to a Psychiatric Ward in a hospital because I was contemplating suicide from all the teasing in school because of my sexuality and the oppressive teachings of my church. I spent a week there and the seed was planted for me to start looking at things differently.

I started reading books concerning the issue and I discovered things about the history of Christianity and Homosexuality that I wasn't aware of. When I returned to my mom's church, the whole environment felt different. I felt my eyes had been opened for the first time and I started noticing the one-sidedness of their teachings. It was then that I realized that my mother's church was a Fundimentalist church.

Somehow the issue of me questioning my faith and sexuality was brought to the attention of some of the church members and they sent out a sort of "committee" to preach to me about the evils of homosexuality. I just sat there and listened to their nonesense with open eyes and took all of it with a grain of salt. Then my uncle tried the same thing on me. I took his preaching the same way. (Ever since then I have disliked him). Then the youth group leader offerred to counsel me and bring me back to the "straight path".

That was the last straw. I gathered up my courage and left that church for good. Ever since then, anytime I have ever set foot in that church for weddings, funerals, or get-togethers, I felt what seemed like an atmosphere of evil and close-mindedness all around me. For a while I lived as an atheist, but the urge to reconnect to God was too over-powering. So I started looking around for another church to go to, one that accepted me for who I was.

I eventually tried going to an MCC (Metropolitan Community Church) and I absolutely LOVED it there. I swear I have never been at a church where I felt so loved and comfortable. However, the church was too far away to attend very often, so I only got there a few times. But the loving environment and what they taught me sowed the seeds for me to look into the issue of homosexuality and Christianity even more. The more I read about alternative ideas regarding gay Christians, the more I began to realize that God made me just as he wanted to and that I shouldn't fight it.

I am now at a UCC (United Church of Christ) and I am completely happy. Now that I've educated myself in the false teachings of some churches and my own sexuality, I no longer feel at odds with my sexuality and my faith. I am now in a relationship with another gay Christian and I feel comfortable and completely at ease with myself and God. I feel that we were designed to be together by God and that he has blessed our relationship. I no longer feel as if I were being led astray or doing something wrong.

It's not an easy path to take, and can take a long time to reach that comfort zone, but it can be done. So long as you are willing to look at things in depth with an open mind, you can begin to see things different. The problem with many Conservative Christians is that they are raised to believe one thing and are not provided with all sides of the debate. They spend their lives defending their beliefs with closed minds without giving any alternative ideas a chance. The sad thing is, that once a person buys into flawed teachings, it can be very difficult to get them to open their eyes to new teachings.

Jack, you are at the age now where you can decide for yourself whether you want to follow the crowd in your church and never look at things in a different light. Or, you can take the time to look at all sides of the issue and decide for yourself. I personally feel that the Bible is a wonderful framework for living a good, peaceful Christian life. However, one must not forget that God did not write the Bible. Men inspired by God did. And as we already know, no man, except for Jesus, is perfect.

So never forget that just because it is written in the Bible, doesn't make it literally true. The writers of the Bible lived in a time when the ideas and laws were very different from today's. Many of them strictly revolved around procreation. A belief at the time, which we now know is untrue, was that men had limited sperm in their bodies. So all sexual activity was to be confined to procreation and all other sexual activity, including masturbation, was considered a waste of this sperm. So alternate sexual activities were outlawed. Since women didn't have sperm, they were not included so long as they bore children.

The culture of the time also believed that men lived long in their afterlife as long as they had plenty of heirs to carry the family bloodline. So once more, procreation became a must and laws were written accordingly. One must also not forget that the laws written in Leviticus were written exclusively for the Jews only, as a set of Purity and Holiness laws based on procreation as a must.

[johnnybravo]

Sherlock,


As a gay man myself, I have a problem with fundamentalists because they imply that gay people either:

1. Are not allowed to accept Jesus as lord and savior to begin with.

2. Have to commit apostacy and reject Jesus if they already believe in Him as lord and savior, which is basically the unforgivable sin mentioned in Matthew 12:31 about sinning against the Holy Spirit.

I say felgercarb to those fundies, like Fred Phelps and Pat Robertson. There are no "pre-existing conditions" mentioned in John 3:16-17 that bar anyone from believing in Jesus.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that all those who believe in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."

As one can read, it says that "all those who believe". It does not say "all those who believe, unless they're gay, black, Jew, etc..." All those who believe means exactly that. I know this is a rather bizarre analogy, but think of believing in Jesus as like a life insurance policy that allows anyone to be a policy holder regardless of who they are or what their health status is, but then again, believing in Jesus is life insurance, eternal life insurance that is, regardless of one's sinful status.

Phelps claims that people like you and I "sin in spite of faith in Jesus". I say the opposite. I have faith in Jesus in spite of my sins. So keep up the good work. I believe in Jesus also and will not let Fred Phelps or any other hyperfundie cause me to lose faith in Jesus because of my gayness. He's just a wolf in sheep's clothing.