The 2 churches

[TheMadcapSyd]

Does anyone have any good information about the differences between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches?(aside from the pope, no pope differece)

[Brocktoon]

Good Question, Id like to find out more too.


I only know that Protestant catholics split from the 'Orthodox' Church and at some point The Orthodox Pope 'Excommunicated' the 'Roman Pope'.
(who in turn excommunicated the Orthodox Pope)

Im still not entirely sure what exactly 'The great Shism' (or whatever its called?) was all about?

Anyone?

[TheMadcapSyd]

Well the great shism was when the leaders of both churchs, Catholic in Rome and Orthodox in Constantinople excommunicated each other in 1054 I believe. More or less the official split between them.

[gnrm23]

aside from worldy power concerns (rome vs. constantinople) the main cause for the division of the church into roman catholic & eastern orthodox was over the phrase in the nicene creed "et filoque"...
which is regarding the origin of the person of the holy spirit; the werstern church insisted the the holy spirit "proceedeth from the father AND the son" (et filoque), while the eastern church insisted that the holy spirit comes only from the father...
the eastern churches regarded the bishop of rome (and the bishops of the other 4 patriarchates) as "first among equals"; while the church of rome insisted that christ have give his follower peter (simon bar jonah; "petros" = "rock" (or perhaps "pebble") a special office, above and beyond that given to other apostles, disciples, deacons, priests, elders, presbyters, or bishops...


want more?
ask away, hehheh...
shalom...

[bandit28]

Yeah, why couldn't they just read The Bible together and get over themselves.

[Jozak]

Well the great shism was when the leaders of both churchs, Catholic in Rome and Orthodox in Constantinople excommunicated each other in 1054 I believe. More or less the official split between them.
You are exactly correct. It was more or less the same church up until 1054 AD, but by that time, the Cultural differneces of Asia Minor and of Europe were starting to show, and would have been quite difficult for it to stay togethar. I forgot the EXACT cause, we had a whole unit in my AP European History class last year, but it's when the Distinction "Greek/Russian Orthodox and Roman Catholic" came about.

The capitol had been moved to Constaninople from Rome becasue of the barbaric invasions on Rome. When the Emperor left, the Pope assumed most of the power, the barbarians converted, and Roman Catholicism swept accross Europe, most notably when Clovis of the Franks (French) converted to Catholicism. (Forgot what year, 700 somthing maybe)?

[Jozak]

Yeah, why couldn't they just read The Bible together and get over themselves.
It's not that simple. Niether the Orthodox or Roman Church hold a "Sola Scriputra" belief. That did not come about until that punk Martin Luther decided to split and form his own church. It is considered a heresy by both churches I beleive.

[gnrm23]

Yeah, why couldn't they just read The Bible together and get over themselves.
~

well, not one of the creeds ("creedo" = "i believe") - apostles, nicene, athanasian - were actuall in the bible; they were all attempts to help christians define who they were by the beliefs held in common with other believers in christ (& in the process, show how christians differed from jews, gnostics, & other folks who held wrong beliefs...)

~

whyfor you wanna call dr. martin luthers a "punk" ?
(other than to get a rise outa me? ;) ...)

he was an ordained priest (order of st augustine); a college professor, and a gifted thoelogian... and one hell of a debater...
and if he hadn't had some friends kidnap him while out for a walk during his trial for heresy (the diet of worms), safe-conduct promise or no, the ecclesia would have convicted him, condemned him, and burned him at the stake - just for critisizing a few of the many, many excesses perpetrated by the holy mother church in rome (just like they did for his predecessor in protesting (pro = for, testa = witness) romish practices, the czech priest jon hus...)

~

so east & west split in the 11th century (the various orthodox churches are divided by geographical & language variations, & not by major theological differences) and the western church splintered from the early 16th century on (luther, melancthon, zwingli, calvin, king henry VIII, and many other "reformers" great & small) across europe & eventually the americas (especially the united states - lotta folks moved here from europe to get enough elbow room to practice their flavor of christianity; but some sects only survive here in north america (after fading away from the euro-theater) & quite a few other sects got their start right here)... & other flavors of christianity (& derivative offshoots) developed in south america, in africa, in asia - as well as many of the "traditional denominations" flourishing across the world, fueled in part by the efforts of various missionary societies...

~

check out "the church of all worlds" or "the church of the subgenius" for a couple recent american religious inventions (with virtually no christian beliefs incorporated into their mythos, to be sure!)
(older north american offshoots (with more of a "christian flavor" to 'em) might include millerites, LDS, christian science, pentecostal groups, etcetcetc...)
;)

~

ymmv, mmmkay?
...

[Brocktoon]

gnrm,

Im thankful you just saved me a lot of typing.



In anycase, Im pretty sure Luther excommunicated the Pope who refused to go along with the reform of the Church.



The ones who protested the reforms (like Jozak) went off and recreated a new Church offshoot called 'The Roman Catholic Church'.



They are currently working towards re-uniting with the Lutherans.

That is a good thing!

[Jozak]

gnrm,

Im thankful you just saved me a lot of typing.



In anycase, Im pretty sure Luther excommunicated the Pope who refused to go along with the reform of the Church.LOL....how could luther excommunicate the pope? Luther is the one that broke away and formed the lutheran church.

No, the church had corruption in it, and it needed to be reformed.


The ones who protested the reforms (like Jozak) went off and recreated a new Church offshoot called 'The Roman Catholic Church'.Offshoot? What are you talking about? The roman catholic church had exsisted over a 1000 years before the protestant reformation took place, i think your a confusing history a bit. the only split with catholics had was in 1054 when both the pope and the patriacrch in constantinople excommunicated each other, and the christian church became roman catholic and greek orthodox.

and the catholic church did reform, it was called the catholic/counter reformation, where the church got rid of the policy of buying indulgences, along with some other things.

of course, after vatican 2 in the 1960's, some catholics split off in protest of the liberalization of the church, but they are a tiny minority.


They are currently working towards re-uniting with the Lutherans.

That is a good thing!Becasue they are the ones that split off in the first place. they now look at the entire christendom and realize the enormous amount of disunity their actions are responsible for. they set the precedent for thousands of other churches to start splitting off from each other. Many lutherans have converted to catholicism in recent years, and it is not to hard becasue they are very similar.

[gnrm23]

i think that it might be more properly phrased "dr luther & his holiness the pontiff excommunicated each other" from the body of christ (i.e. the church)...

now, as to whether luther had the authority to do so (or even whether the poppe had the authority to do so, for luther's piddling little offences) is another matter...

~

(but you gotta admit, though --- luther surely had a lotta chutzpah for an obscure german priest/professor, eh?)

[gnrm23]

and anyays, luther was not trying to start a "new church" - he was trying to restore the church (well, the western church, anyways, for starters) to "its original apostolic purity" - that is, freed from several centuries of accretions of various sorts (and attempting to rely on the bible as sole authority, and not on the "traditions of the fathers" which he felt somehow cluttered up the simple message of the gospels & the other books of the new testament...)
he wished for those who embraced his "purified christianity" to be called "evangelicals" (& not lutherans! he objected to that name streuously)...

it was long after his trial & all attempts at reconcilation with the church of rome failed that he (along with some fellow german theologians) began to codify the "lutheran' beliefs (articles of concord, large & small catechisms, & a few other documents)...
and he did not marry (former nun) katherine until years after the break with rome as well (many catholics state that luther quit the priesthood so that he could marry; the chronolgy of events in his life wouild tend to indicate otherwise...)


(& he could hardly have been unaware of the works of meister eckhart, & the authors of _theologica germanica_, & the unhappy fate of his protesting predecessor, the czech priest jon hus (executed for heresy following his trial (with his guarrantee of safe passage abrogated by the papal authorities)...)

~

the roman catholic church responded to the stirring within eurpope with their own "counter-reformation" ...
and europe had many further protestant theologians comeup with their own versions of the way to go...
and the hundred years war, and the st bartholomew's day massacre, and more heartbreak and bloodshed (in the name of the prince of peace) instigated by both (or better, "all"?) sides during the next few centuries...

[Jozak]

i think that it might be more properly phrased "dr luther & his holiness the pontiff excommunicated each other" from the body of christ (i.e. the church)...
Luther was a priest. It's foolish to say Luther could ex-communicate anyone, he had no authority to do so, especially the pope himself.

now, as to whether luther had the authority to do so (or even whether the poppe had the authority to do so, for luther's piddling little offences) is another matter...
Peddeling offenses? are you kidding me? Luther had some legitimate complaints, I am not disputing that, but he had no right to break away from Rome.


(but you gotta admit, though --- luther surely had a lotta chutzpah for an obscure german priest/professor, eh?)
Yeah, for a salvation-paranoid, hourly confessing, renegade priest, I suppose.