soulfire77
04-02-2007, 03:26 AM
Well, I'm no expert, but here is my two cents on the subject:
All major religons (and most of the minors ones) have a central theme which is reflected by these writings:
Christianity: "All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye so to them; for this is the law and the prophets." - Matthew 7:1
Buddhism: "Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful." - Udana-Varga 5,1
Hinduism: "This is the sum of duty; do naught onto others what you would not have them do unto you." - Mahabharata 5,1517
Islam: "No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother that which he desires for himself." - Sunnah
Judaism: "What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellowman. This is the entire Law; all the rest is commentary." - Talmud, Shabbat 3id
Native American Spirituality:
"Respect for all life is the foundation." - The Great Law of Peace.
"All things are our relatives; what we do to everything, we do to ourselves. All is really One." - Black Elk
"Do not wrong or hate your neighbor. For it is not he who you wrong, but yourself." - Pima proverb.
Wicca: "An it harm no one, do what thou wilt" - Wiccan Rede
Humanism:"...critical intelligence, infused by a sense of human caring, is the best method that humanity has for resolving problems. Reason should be balanced with compassion and empathy and the whole person fulfilled." - Humanist Manifesto II; Ethics section.
Scientology: "20: Try to treat others as you would want them to treat you." - This is one of the 21 moral precepts that form the moral code explained in L. Ron Hubbard's booklet "The Way to Happiness."
Of course, this is the "Golden Rule" or, in secular form, the "Ethic of Reciprocity".
If you DO NOT believe in God (or gods), how hard is it, really, to embrace this ideal? "I don't want anyone to steal from me, so I won't steal... I don't want to be killed, so I won't kill anyone... I want my beliefs to be treated with respect, so I will respect the beliefs of others..." And so on...
If you DO believe, then why can't you just accept that THIS is what God wants from you. He, apparently, went through the trouble of speaking this commandment through all faiths, so why not listen to Him (or Her)?
Here is what I think would eliminate the need for this debate:
Some Athiests need to acknowledge that: Just because God's existence cannot be proven empirically, does not mean that it is wrong to have spirituality in your life. By condemning and insulting those who have faith as ignorant, anti-science "luddites" (not that I have witnessed that in this forum), you come across as immature -regardless of your intellectual level- and you seem like you are "on the run from God" to the apologists. In other words, the more respect you have toward another person's God(s), the more likely it is that they will come to accept that you don't need (or want) "saving" or conversion. Many people of faith (especially Christians) struggle with how an Athiest could be a good person without guidance (or the threat of punishment)... Show them the positive side.
Some Believers need to accept that Athiests have a moral code just like everyone else. Brow-beating them, or holding eternal damnation (which they do not believe in, anyway) over their heads makes you look nutty (or at the least: "pushy"). You are using the fact that no one knows what happens after death to imply that you "might" be right about God, therefore unbelievers should fall in line "just in case"... How many times have I heard a Christian preacher say, "I came to Christ because I was afraid of Hell, I stay with Christ because now I love Him..."? Scaring folks with a boogeyman they don't believe in is just going to get you laughed at, and even calmly arguing Pascal's Wager makes you look desperate... Embrace the positive, no one like likes the fear tactics.
A few years ago, when I was younger, I had a profound spiritual experience which was not unlike an LSD trip that I had years later.
Now, a religious person would wonder how profound my spiritual experience actually could have been, if I wound up on drugs afterward.
An athiest would argue that because my spiritual experience triggered the same chemicals in my brain as LSD, then my "spirituality" is entirely chemical and God is all in my head. Right?
Do you see how you both live and wallow in doubt?
Do you see how hard a God, if one exists, would have to work to "prove" anything to anyone (especially if that God desired faith over false worship, as this God we always argue about seems to)?
When (and if) He spoke, He would almost have to have a simple message... Which He would then have to communicate through a lot of different channels to make sure everyone heard it... It would have to be something simple... Something that taps into the nature of Man's good side and be just selfish enough to appeal to Man's bad side...
See where I am going with this?
"Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 'Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?' Jesus replied: 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." - Matthew 22
If you believe in God, then you have to accept the fact that He is capable of speaking to people's hearts individually. So, why would you dare try to speak for Him?
If you don't believe in God, and the only thing that might convince you of His existence is to hear it straight from Him... Why aren't you listening?
-----------------------------------------------------
"Better than a thousand hollow words is one word that brings peace." - Buddha (560-483 B.C.)
All major religons (and most of the minors ones) have a central theme which is reflected by these writings:
Christianity: "All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye so to them; for this is the law and the prophets." - Matthew 7:1
Buddhism: "Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful." - Udana-Varga 5,1
Hinduism: "This is the sum of duty; do naught onto others what you would not have them do unto you." - Mahabharata 5,1517
Islam: "No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother that which he desires for himself." - Sunnah
Judaism: "What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellowman. This is the entire Law; all the rest is commentary." - Talmud, Shabbat 3id
Native American Spirituality:
"Respect for all life is the foundation." - The Great Law of Peace.
"All things are our relatives; what we do to everything, we do to ourselves. All is really One." - Black Elk
"Do not wrong or hate your neighbor. For it is not he who you wrong, but yourself." - Pima proverb.
Wicca: "An it harm no one, do what thou wilt" - Wiccan Rede
Humanism:"...critical intelligence, infused by a sense of human caring, is the best method that humanity has for resolving problems. Reason should be balanced with compassion and empathy and the whole person fulfilled." - Humanist Manifesto II; Ethics section.
Scientology: "20: Try to treat others as you would want them to treat you." - This is one of the 21 moral precepts that form the moral code explained in L. Ron Hubbard's booklet "The Way to Happiness."
Of course, this is the "Golden Rule" or, in secular form, the "Ethic of Reciprocity".
If you DO NOT believe in God (or gods), how hard is it, really, to embrace this ideal? "I don't want anyone to steal from me, so I won't steal... I don't want to be killed, so I won't kill anyone... I want my beliefs to be treated with respect, so I will respect the beliefs of others..." And so on...
If you DO believe, then why can't you just accept that THIS is what God wants from you. He, apparently, went through the trouble of speaking this commandment through all faiths, so why not listen to Him (or Her)?
Here is what I think would eliminate the need for this debate:
Some Athiests need to acknowledge that: Just because God's existence cannot be proven empirically, does not mean that it is wrong to have spirituality in your life. By condemning and insulting those who have faith as ignorant, anti-science "luddites" (not that I have witnessed that in this forum), you come across as immature -regardless of your intellectual level- and you seem like you are "on the run from God" to the apologists. In other words, the more respect you have toward another person's God(s), the more likely it is that they will come to accept that you don't need (or want) "saving" or conversion. Many people of faith (especially Christians) struggle with how an Athiest could be a good person without guidance (or the threat of punishment)... Show them the positive side.
Some Believers need to accept that Athiests have a moral code just like everyone else. Brow-beating them, or holding eternal damnation (which they do not believe in, anyway) over their heads makes you look nutty (or at the least: "pushy"). You are using the fact that no one knows what happens after death to imply that you "might" be right about God, therefore unbelievers should fall in line "just in case"... How many times have I heard a Christian preacher say, "I came to Christ because I was afraid of Hell, I stay with Christ because now I love Him..."? Scaring folks with a boogeyman they don't believe in is just going to get you laughed at, and even calmly arguing Pascal's Wager makes you look desperate... Embrace the positive, no one like likes the fear tactics.
A few years ago, when I was younger, I had a profound spiritual experience which was not unlike an LSD trip that I had years later.
Now, a religious person would wonder how profound my spiritual experience actually could have been, if I wound up on drugs afterward.
An athiest would argue that because my spiritual experience triggered the same chemicals in my brain as LSD, then my "spirituality" is entirely chemical and God is all in my head. Right?
Do you see how you both live and wallow in doubt?
Do you see how hard a God, if one exists, would have to work to "prove" anything to anyone (especially if that God desired faith over false worship, as this God we always argue about seems to)?
When (and if) He spoke, He would almost have to have a simple message... Which He would then have to communicate through a lot of different channels to make sure everyone heard it... It would have to be something simple... Something that taps into the nature of Man's good side and be just selfish enough to appeal to Man's bad side...
See where I am going with this?
"Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 'Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?' Jesus replied: 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." - Matthew 22
If you believe in God, then you have to accept the fact that He is capable of speaking to people's hearts individually. So, why would you dare try to speak for Him?
If you don't believe in God, and the only thing that might convince you of His existence is to hear it straight from Him... Why aren't you listening?
-----------------------------------------------------
"Better than a thousand hollow words is one word that brings peace." - Buddha (560-483 B.C.)