Gays in the military MERGED

[taxrefund90]

i was listening to a replay of the howard stern show, and they had g. gordon liddy on. around the end of the interview, they asked him his view on gays in the military. he is against it because he feels that homosexual men will have feelings for the men that shower with them everyday. if g. gordon liddy said it, then it must be true. right?


but really, i was wondering about some reasons that contradict this view. i probably already know them, but i'm bored, and i haven't started a new thread in a while.

[mushie18]

i have no problem with straight guys that want to shower with straight guys. i don't blame them..

i know that i would look...

[taxrefund90]

i have no problem with straight guys that want to shower with straight guys. i don't blame them..

i know that i would look...
so you don't believe that openly gay men should be in the military? or is it the other way?

[mushie18]

I just don't really see how it could work.

It could prove to be very awkward in a lot of circumstances. Trust me, I'm all about equality, but in combat the last thing you want someone to be thinking is "is he checking me out..?".

I don't really have an answer. There are so many aspects of the military that involve very close interactions between men that could cause unpleseant situations if a homosexual was involved.

I know it has been done and still goes on and results with no problems, but there could be awful repercussions for a gay man in the military.

[amp7325]

I agree with you mushie. You pretty much covered it.

[Panzer]

How about this solution: Rules are set up regarding what is apropriate and inapropriate conduct, and those who do not follow the rules are reprimanded and or discharged. That's called disipline, it is supposed to be what the military is known for. Oh, and I think if you're woried about who is checking you out in combat you probably deserve an injury, that's called natural selection.

[Lanze]

Yeah you are right panzer...and why should anyone give a fuck if their being checked out? So what...it does not harm...i dont care if girls check me out in fact I enjoy it because its a compliment it means im good looking I dont see how it shouldnt be any different with straight guys.

as long as there is no sexual misconduct anyone should be able to fight for their country

[mushie18]

gays and their self righteousness... :rolleyes:

yeah you're right, people should be able to accept a compliment. but many people aren't comfortable with homosexuality. that is their right as a human being, just as it is my right to be gay.

a straight man showering, bunking, laying, keeping warm, etc. with a gay man can prove to be an awkward situation. why create unneeded tension? I'm not saying it's right, but if a guy is willing to put his life on the line, gay or straight, i think he should feel comfortable with his platoon.

[Night_Owl49]

straight, i think he should feel comfortable with his platoon.hey mushie. http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Well I agree with you about the other stuff, but it's funny that you're saying it like it. You could say the exact same thing in the defense, because straight men should be comfortable and trusting enough in battle (with their lives on the line) with anybody who is trained to handle the situation. They should be able to look beyond sexuality in that aspect of it. It's just survival instincts at that point...

But yeah, on the other points I definately agree it could become very awkward.

[VirgilDemon]

I think it would have been better if he said, that sex shouldnt interfere in army/military affairs hehe

[pianoperson60]

well, Mushie, just because you cant help but check any naked guy out and contain yourself, doesnt mean that millions of other gay men cant. Sexuality has NO thing to do with combat, what the hell kind of point are you trying to make? If people in hte military aren't comfortable enough with their own sexuality, then that's THEIR problem.

Do you think we should also ban gays from normal schools, and create special schools for them so that straight guys aren't distracted in the classroom, worrying if the gay guy across the room has checked him out? Come on man.

Yes, people have the right to be against homosexuality, but what they dont have the right to do is discriminate someone else because of it.

"a straight man showering, bunking, laying, keeping warm, etc. with a gay man can prove to be an awkward situation. why create unneeded tension?"

^what? yeah, like I siad, that's THEIR problem, if they can't be comfortbale being around another gay guy. Like I said before, should we then separate gays from straights in the rest of the world? What the hell is so special about the military that you feel "segregation" is necessary?

Sexual misconduct is one thing, but just because someone is gay doenst mean that they are going to do taht to a straight guy. But I guess by the sounds of it, Mushie would.

[mushie18]

ha, i was waiting for it.

yes, i'm aware it's their problem, nor do i agree with their opinion. but they're entitled to it.

It essentially already is segregation in the military "don't ask, don't tell".

You are asking me ridiculous questions.. A school is completley different than the military. For example, in basic training two males, may have to strip down and hold each other close to keep warm. This type of situation doesn't happen in schools.

I don't find it to be discrimination for a straight guy to be uncomfortable nude around a gay guy. Maybe your views on discrimination are a little more rigid.

I'm fine with the current way the military runs, don't ask, don't tell.

My point is, i find a gay guy rooming, showering, bunking, etc, no different than if it was a straight guy, and straight woman. It just doesn't work in my opinion. And i'm not saying that a gay guy can't live with a straight guy outside of the military, but in the military the men get very close.

i'm not a pervert, as much as you may like to make me look as one. I just think if i was in the military, i could get aroused in certain circumstances. It's not it's something I or many others have control over.. If I were become aroused I would be aware that it is inappropriate.

[Panzer]

Mushie, what it seems to come down to is that you don't think you can handle it, so you are generalising and assuming that all other gay men couldn't. But, the thing is, other people are different than you and should be given the chance to prove that they can serve compitently without getting aroused at inapropriate times. Like I said, if someone breaks the rules they should be reprimanded and or discharged. But they shaould have the right to try. Also, alot of what you say are arguments against letting any minority into the military. I bet there were alot of white guys that said they should not have to touch black guys when the military first became racialy integrated.

[pianoperson60]

exactly, Panzer^

[mushie18]

i guess you're right.. i wouldn't be able to handle living with another man, showering, etc. :rolleyes:

think of the situation like this, instead of a gay man, it's a straight woman doing all of the shit that the platoon does. to me, it's the exact same. i find it inappropriate.

my argument isn't about other minorities. if you cannot understand my view, then that's fine. you're not going to convince me, nor am i going to convince you.

[Night_Owl49]

think of the situation like this, instead of a gay man, it's a straight woman doing all of the shit that the platoon does. to me, it's the exact same. i find it inappropriate.
but men are built differently.

and it's not like homosexuality is a gender identity thing.

plus it's not like men think with their penis.http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif everything doesn't have to be equated to sex.

[coolpinefresh]

Is it an obligation to join the army in your country?For example in Turkey every guy has to join army to defend his country and we soldiers don't get money for this!

[VirgilDemon]

Is it an obligation to join the army in your country?For example in Turkey every guy has to join army to defend his country and we soldiers don't get money for this!I think they give a release if you are gay. But I think you didnt want to lose the opportunity of staying with all these men watching their naked butts http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Samhain]

I think they give a release if you are gay. But I think you didnt want to lose the opportunity of staying with all these men watching their naked butts http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
personnally I think its a pretty good idea for getting out of it, I would hate to join the army, and asking about communal showers in the initial interview might just do the trick to get me out the door!
S

[trekker]

Think about it. If there is nothing unconstitutional about homosexuality, why then should gay people be banned from any government sector? Felons can't join the military, because they broke laws of the state. Homosexuality is not illeagal, thus why should they be banned from military service. The military should just regulate and prosecute what is unconstitutional. They should have a rule banning deviant sex on post if that is neccesary for the smooth opporation of the "business", war; and if anyone feels threatened by a gay soldier, they should be encouraged to report it to superiors. The military as an employer has rights to determine what is acceptable behavior from their soldiers; just like Mc Donald's or the New York Stock Exchange have over the people who work there. Wash your hands every time you leave the grill area or you are fired. I think the military should not be outside the law of the country, and definately not be a law unto themselves. That would be martial law. I do believe it is against the law in this country to have anal sex, nomatter what sex you are. I don't think it is a felony though, and should not be a factor in being discharged from military service. The USA has to once and for all decide on it's constitutional view on homosexuality, and military power limits. We have to decide if homosexuality is a threat to our soverenty, and if it will weaken the nation. We need clearly defined enemies.

[Samhain]

Think about it. If there is nothing unconstitutional about homosexuality, why then should gay people be banned from any government sector? Felons can't join the military, because they broke laws of the state. Homosexuality is not illeagal, thus why should they be banned from military service. The military should just regulate and prosecute what is unconstitutional. They should have a rule banning deviant sex on post if that is neccesary and if anyone feels threatened by a gay soldier, they should be encouraged to report it to superiors. The military as an employer has rights to determine what is acceptable behavior; just like Mc Donald's or the New York Stock Exchange. I think the military should not be outside the law of the country, and definately not be a law unto themselves. That would be martial law. I do believe it is against the law in this country to have anal sex, nomatter what sex you are. I don't think it is a felony though, and should not be a factor in being discharged from military service. The USA has to once and for all decide on it's constitutional view on homosexuality, and military power limits. We have to decide if homosexuality is a threat to our soverenty, and if it will weaken the nation. We need clearly defined enemies. Why fight amongst ourselves if we are working together for a cause?
good point
S

[clitz34]

I am sorry for sounding ignorant but, why cant we have gays in the military.

[erzebet1961]

Gays can be in the military as long as they dont tell they are Gay

[yarapario]

There are thousands of gay and lesbian folks in the military. The military, which prefers to operate with its head up its own ass, says the policy of "don't ask and don't tell" is an answer to something. Thats bullshit of course but social conservatives thrive on bullshit. All through out history gays have been warriors and will continue to do so in the future...its just that the US would rather not deal with reality.

[Isil]

Im not sure theres even a reason...Though, no reason for excluding a person from the military based on sexuality could be...well, reasonable o.O

The US army is highly discriminative, I guess >.<

[happyonehit420]

in all honestly, I kind of don't care about them not allowing gays in the military, but that's only because I HATE the military (pacifist much??) and if they ever tried to draft me, I'd be the first to spill the beans that I was gay....just so they'd kick me out, and I wouldn't have to wear those horrid camo outfits they have....or shave my hair off....

[WayfaringStranger]

gay people are allowed in the military. and they should be. i can understand the clinton stance of placing the burden on the gay member though. we definately do not live in a perfect world, nor will we ever, so you cant expect more that 90% of straight military personel to deal with it in a mature maner. so the burden is placed on the gay person to not make an issue of it. it makes sense to me.

[White_Male_Canada]

Gays don't need to be openly serving in the military for the same reason women dont serve in combat. We need mMillitary effectiveness,not more liberal political correctness.:sunglasse

[Noir]

Well, with countries where national service is still in force, you kind of inadvertantly place a substantial numbers of gays in the military. I managed to escape mine as I went to university, but I have a friend who has stories about spooning people in winter combat excercises. Hmmm, interesting...

Anyway, many ancient warriors and societies didn't have a problem with gays in the military - the Spartans are a good example, with tutelage of adolescent warriors going beyond just, well, "tutalage". And they had a saying that gays fight better than others as they are fighting beside the people they love.

[txbarefooter]

having been in the USAF, the word is "good order and disipline". if an openly gay person was serving with a group of homophobes it would/could cause a breakdown of the good order and disipline.

on the other hand, in combat the last thing on your mind would be "is this guy checking me out ?" no, you're more worried about staying alive.

keeping with the combat theme: if an openly gay soldier is shot, and if the medic is a homophobe will he give 110% to keep the gay solider alive as he would a straight soldier ?

would the gay soliders "brothers in arms" apply first aid or would they be worried about AIDS and not give him first aid ? "one less fag in the world" - guess where I heard this line ?

when I was in the shower I know a lot of the guys checked each other out, yanno "how do I compare in the size department" sorta thing. I mean they didn't oogle the other guy or anything but they did check each other out.

did I love some of my brothers ? yeah, in the sense that I would have given my life for them but I didn't love them in a sexual way. its weird, the bonding that come from serving in the militar is not something that can be explained it has to be experienced. you live, eat, sleep and work with these guys 24/7/365 so you can get very close.

Do I think openly gays should serve ? no, because I think it could, at this time and date, cause more problems than it cures. perhaps in 20-30 years attitudes will change and it won't be such a big deal and gays can freely serve.

[*~nathan~*]

I think with republicans running about everything, we will never see it. But if someone wants to serve openly gay in the military, let them, the only people in my opinion are neo conservitave republicans whose agenda is to give the rednecks only what they want. But for safety reasons, i dont think so, because people might try to commit an act of violence on you.

[SlickyPants]

I think that if a straight soldier is incapable of focussing on his mission because he keeps wondering if the fag behind him is staring at his ass, then maybe he shouldn't be allowed to serve in the military because his insecurities are hindering his ability to do his job and putting the rest of his fellow soldiers' lives at risk because of it.

Of all the things to think about on the battlefield...

The shower thing and bunking with a gay man is a bit different but still.

txbarefooter brings up a good point about the medic thing.

I guess I'm not really affected by this because I live in Canada. If ever I decide to enlist in the military, being open about my sexual orientation will not be a problem.

[gshdgns]

OK, I am a strait male. But I have been hit on a couple of times by gay men, once at an alternative bookstore, and once at a gay bar where I was celebrating a lesbian friends birthday. Both times I politely informed the person that I was strait but thanks anyway. At no time did I feel offended, rather I took it as a compliment.
That being said, so what if some guy is checking you out? Who cares. Sexual harassment is the same for gay or strait. Unwanted and repeated advances. Gay men or women are no more likely to harass someone sexually than strait men and women. The only problem is with the reaction of the strait guy. They need to get over it. There are already gays in the military, they just have to hide it. Don't ask don't tell is a form of repression that needs to be stopped.