Religion is dead

[Sign Related]

Is religion dead yet to you?

Time to awaken. Religion is getting you nowhere. http://static.bbmp3.com/smilies/banghead.gif Faith in God is getting you nowhere. Have no morals for a change. And go by what you know instead of what you believe for a change. The mention of hell is what got many people trapped into religion in the first place. Free your minds from thinking hell will get you if you dont believe. Dont let religion rob you blinded.
Having no morals doesnt mean you a killer or etc. Nothing is a sin. The whole thing about sin was made up to keep your mind on hell. Screw hell! Screw heaven!

Yes, there is a higher power, but it aint God! So get your minds right and live without more stress on the brain. Who feel me?

[Bongish]

religion is not dead. It was never even alive. It is an imaginary concept. Something imaginary and never having been living, by definition, cannot be dead.

[Strawberry_Fields_Fo]

I don't assume to know why you're opposed to religion, so please don't assume to know why I believe in god. It actually has nothing to do with hell, in case your interested, and people have done and will continue to do stupid, irrational things with or without religion.

[Bongish]

yeah. but much more so with it.

[themnax]

there are some things that are up to us, whatever else may or may not exist. like not messing everything up for each other.

this does not in any way preclude the possible existence of nontangable friends, great or small.

these are two seperate things.

friends, nontangable ones included, are something to love and appreciate, but tangable or nontangable there is only so much anyone can do for anyone else.

and one thing no pie in the sky can do, is take the place of the self restraint neccessary to avoid causing each other's suffering and the causes of each other's suffering.

religeons were invented in an attempt, often a despirate one, to encourage people to want to stop causing harm and suffering to themselves and each other.

i can, and do, find no fault in THAT motivation.

when people use the pretentions of belief, to blind each other to the actual mechanisms by which they cause suffering and real harm, then THIS indeed, we would be far better off never to have come up with doing.

remember, altruism or no altruism, everyone has a SELF interest in the avoidance of causing suffering. why?

because the more suffering we cause the more suffering there is; and the more suffering there is, the more likely it is to bite ourselves on our own assess.

=^^=
.../\...

[BlackBillBlake]

religion is not dead. It was never even alive. It is an imaginary concept. Something imaginary and never having been living, by definition, cannot be dead.
Tell that to the islamist suicide bomber.

[Bongish]

Islamist suicide douchebags are victims of the same imaginary concepts and the brainwashing therein.

never heard of an atheist flying a plane into a building......eh??????

[yyyesiam2]

SR-what you are doing right now is what is wrong with organized religion. you are preaching to other people and telling them how they should think. what is the difference between god and this higher power you speak of, other than words? remember, there are many different organized views of god, other than the christian one. how is there a difference between us believing there is no hell because you say so, and believing there is because a preacher tells us so?

[relaxxx]

The difference is that he’s outnumbered by billions. Unfortunately religion is not dead. It may be dying in some pockets of North American Christianity while other more extreme religions are growing like a disease. Muslims alone outnumber the entire North American population by more than 3 to 1. This kind of religion doesn’t think with logic, it thinks with raw emotion. And don’t be fooled for one second that it not about pure unwavering hatred for the western world. Oh it most definitely is, they’ll lie to your face and tell you how peaceful they are and then go jump in their mobs and scream bloody death to all infidels.

This world is dying of a terminal disease ironically called humanity, where the vast majority of this disease population LIVES TO DIE for their imaginary paradise, subconsciously and consciously working toward the Armageddon and the apocalyptical destruction of Earth. A world consumed and controlled by irrational religious nonsense isn’t going to be changed by a few little atheist threads, a scattered drop of rational thought in an ocean of madness.

Are you going to argue over it being an organism or are you going to address the real situation? Are you going to sugar coat religion like a sweet little warm hearted after school special or are you going talk about what’s really going on in this world?? How long can YOU ignore this TIMEBOMB!!???

[yyyesiam2]

what are you doing?


do you really believe it is possible to understand what is going on in every muslim's head without fully studying their religion?

i know very little, but i don't think that they are all about hatred. there sure seems to be alot of preaching in this anti-religion thread.

[relaxxx]

Religious extremists all have the same common traits. They are all selfish, ignorant, irrational, two faced, genocidal walking hate machines.

Anyone who prays to the God in their head 5 times a day on a regular schedule IS an extremist!

[yyyesiam2]

how does praying, or being extreme, for that matter-make you hateful? you sound like the hateful one at the moment, my confused brother.

[relaxxx]

I’ve never drilled my 6 year old son to hate Muslims from time he started to speak but MILLIONS of them have their children brainwashed to hate Jews and Americans before they are 3 years old. I’m atheist and I don’t impose my beliefs on my son in any way. In fact he believes in God just like he believes in Santa and the Easter bunny and that’s perfectly fine with me. You can hate on me and play me as the bad guy all you want but this is what’s really going on, like it or not. You choose to not believe it now but you will find out sooner or later that it’s a mistake to ignore this malignant disease called religion.

[themnax]

so much heat, so little light, or even self honesty.

does it matter if "religeon" is dead? or even what anyone means by claiming the "it" is?

one god, no god and zillions of them in a material, tangable sense, are all equaly probable. though i think the idea of a god being (inhierently) tangable is almost a self contradiction.

what is almost certain is that there are strainger things then either of us can immagine, even in this universe. (and wonderfully, rewardingly strainger at that)

so why not concern ourselves with what really is important that we can do something about, what we need to, and how we can?

and i really think the first thing we need to, is to stop messing everything up for each other.

not to impress each other or to try and become saints, but because the kind of world WE togather create, each of us, whether with anyone or alone, all have to live in.

THEN if you want to "believe in" whatever else puts a smile on your little heart, i can see no harm in doing so.

maybe we all have invisible friends. we probably do.
maybe there is something big, friendly and nontangable. there probably is.

but whatever there is or isn't,
it is STILL up to US, to stop screwing everything up for each other.

i really think that is what is important,
and i really believe THAT is what every reavealer of organized belief,
and every other kind of wise being who'se thoughts have been passed down through the centuries and millinea, have been trying to tell us.

=^^=
.../\...

[yyyesiam2]

i'm not trying to make you out to be a bad guy, just ignorant and hypocritical. it's not even difficult. you're hatefully attacking an enormous group of people in an exteme way, criticizing them as being hateful and extreme. to add to it, you sn is relaxxx. where do you get your information from? have you interviewed every muslim? how do you know they are lying if they claim to be peaceful? if the problem is extemism and hatred, you aren't helping. what would you propose as a solution to this assumed problem? more extreme hatred and violence? i am really glad you don't force your views on your children. i respect you for that. why are you trying to force your views here?

[yyyesiam2]

none of us know the truth about the world, but we feel it necessary to teach our children what we think they need to know to survive. perhaps to them, we are the hateful extremists, and they want to protect their children from being influenced by our self-centered culture.

[paintballer687]

Anyone who prays to the God in their head 5 times a day on a regular schedule IS an extremist!You are among the ignorant mass of society today. You see what the media shows you and treat it as fact. You know, the head of the 'war on Iraq' doesn't know the difference between a Shi'a and a Sunni? I'm sure you don't either. You obviously can't even differentiate culture from religion, in all honesty it's pitiful.

You say millions of Muslims raise their children to hate Americans and Jews, and you know this how? The media has told you? Maybe if you knew the very basics of the religion you're trying to condemn you wouldn't make such a fool of yourself by making bogus claims without a shred of evidence.

[relaxxx]

Does anyone even have the balls to consider this…



WHAT IF I’M RIGHT????


http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t89/relaxxxrrr/_mkid2.jpghttp://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t89/relaxxxrrr/_Mkids.jpg

[paintballer687]

Does anyone even have the balls to consider this…



WHAT IF I’M RIGHT????


Are you fucking kidding me? Pictures with captions added in? This is your goddamn proof? First off, those pictures hold no credibility. Hey man, give me 10 minutes and I can have a Christian saying the same thing, hell I can show you a Jew saying the same thing. Seriously, if you believe that then I've got a bridge to sell you in Alaska.

Second, you know absolutely nothing about what goes on in those countries. Let me tell you one thing, the media here sure as hell doesn't depict how the Israeli's truely act. I should know, I have friends who have grown up there, I've been there; the Jewish Israeli's have no feelings what so ever about Muslims and Christians alike. They could murder one and feel no remorse, it's not even human. I've seen recordings of Israeli troops raiding innocent Muslim and Christian housing for absolutely no reason more than to destroy their personal property; it's horrible, instead of using the door they'll break a hole in their wall to walk through.

Third, even if that was true, you don't know whether or not those pictures are of Sunni or Shi'a. I'm sure you don't know the difference, but let me put it this way; you calling all Muslims extremists/terrorists is like me calling all white people members of the KKK.

You honestly have no right to speak on this matter what so ever; I don't even know why I bother replying to such ignorant, barbaric posts. Seriously, you need to grow some balls yourself and try and consider for a second that maybe you're wrong.

[relaxxx]

Whoohoo, that got someone fired up! I sense a little deep seeded hatred coming to the surface there! That’s good, you should get that out of your system. We’re here for you buddy!

It is true, I cant personally verify the integrity of those translations, I don’t own the original Iranian TV video before translation and I don’t speak their language even if I had it. But I did not create those captions, and I could never have made up something so sick and twisted! If anyone wants to try and verify the integrity of those screenshots, they are from a video featured on an episode of Glen Beck Exposed: the Extremist Agenda. Be my guest and research your heart out -- Find the whole episode on YouTube !!
EVERYONE NEEDS TO SEE THIS VIDEO !!!

Media can be a good tool, if you have enough sense not to become a media tool! What verifies the video to me is how it all adds up perfectly with everything I’ve seen and heard about Muslims and Islam, it all adds up 100%. I did not support the Bush administration when they launched their war on Iraq. I saw right through their lies, nothing they said added up and I was 100% right.

This thread started with he notion that religion is dying, I thought it was important to mention that extremist religion is alive and well and growing totally out of control. For those of you trapped in your fantasy world bubble where RELIGION is not the huge WAR ENGINE that it really is, my post is not intended for you. This post is for those who can think for themselves and are mentally coherent enough to sort the junk media from the good and realize what’s really going on in this world.

[paintballer687]

Of course it adds up to you, you're ignorant enough to believe the media. I'm not going to argue with you any longer; I've been through this for most of my life, I've been places you've never been, seen things you'll never see, I know Islam for what it really is. If you're so naive that you take anything the media says with more than a grain of salt then you're not worthy of my time. Now, if you want to try researching through reliable sources, travel to a few Arab nations, and learn the difference between religion and culture so you can have even an idea of what it is you're speaking of, I'll be glad to talk with you. Until then, I sure hope you're proud of your ignorance and hatred.

[Bongish]

Of course it adds up to you, you're ignorant enough to believe the media. I'm not going to argue with you any longer; I've been through this for most of my life, I've been places you've never been, seen things you'll never see, pretty self important and sure of yourself, eh?

I know Islam for what it really is. Let us examine what Islam really is...shall we?



Don't bother to warn the disbelievers. Allah has blinded them. Theirs will be an awful doom. 2:6 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/2/index.htm#6)
Allah has sickened their hearts. A painful doom is theirs because they lie. 2:10 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/2/index.htm#10)
A fire has been prepared for the disbelievers, whose fuel is men and stones. 2:24 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/2/index.htm#24)
Disbelievers will be burned with fire. 2:39 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/2/index.htm#39), 90 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/2/index.htm#90)
"Whosoever hath done evil and his sin surroundeth him; such are rightful owners of the Fire." 2:81 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/2/index.htm#81)
If you believe in only part of the Scripture, you will suffer in this life and go to hell in the next. 2:85 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/2/index.htm#85)
Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years. But they are going to hell. 2:96 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/2/index.htm#95)
For disbelievers is a painful doom. 2:104 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/2/index.htm#104)
For unbelievers: ignominy in this world, an awful doom in the next. 2:114 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/2/index.htm#114)
"And thou wilt not be asked about the owners of hell-fire." (They are the non-muslims.) 2:119 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/2/index.htm#119)
Allah will leave the disbelievers alone for a while, but then he will compel them to the doom of Fire. 2:126 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/2/index.htm#126)
The doom of the disbelievers will not be lightened. 2:162 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/2/index.htm#162)
Now, if you want to try researching through reliable sources,I'd say the Koran itself is a "reliable source" How 'bout you?


I sure hope you're proud of your ignorance and hatred."the doom of the disbelievers will not be lightened, compelled to the doom of fire, Jews: the greediest of all kind"----

that's culture??
sounds like ignorance and hatred to me.

[paintballer687]

pretty self important and sure of yourself, eh?

Let us examine what Islam really is...shall we?
[/list]I'd say the Koran itself is a "reliable source" How 'bout you?


"the doom of the disbelievers will not be lightened, compelled to the doom of fire, Jews: the greediest of all kind"----

that's culture??
sounds like ignorance and hatred to me.Hmm, you have a very poor translation, it seems almost as if it's been translated in a negative way?
How about you go read it in Arabic then get back to me.

[paintballer687]

I'd say the Koran itself is a "reliable source" How 'bout you?


.It's not the Koran, it's some anti-islamic interpretation. I could twist the Bible the same way. A very concrete idea in Islam is that the Koran is unable to be correctly translated from Arabic.

[paintballer687]

pretty self important and sure of yourself, eh?

Let us examine what Islam really is...shall we?

.My post to relaxx holds true to you as well. You looked at an anti-islamic web site, taken it as fact, and now hold yourself in high regards. I mean, I'm really sure that after reading through that anti-islamic site you know what Islam really is; way better than me, of course, I mean, I am only Muslim, traveled to Islamic nations, etc.

[BlackBillBlake]

Islamist suicide douchebags are victims of the same imaginary concepts and the brainwashing therein.

never heard of an atheist flying a plane into a building......eh??????
Actually, I haven't heard of an atheist doing that.

[yyyesiam2]

i suppose the real culprit here and all over the world is dogmatic thought.

[Bongish]

Hmm, you have a very poor translation, it seems almost as if it's been translated in a negative way?
How about you go read it in Arabic then get back to me.
1st rule of defense: when faced with a truth you can't refute, attack the source.

nice try.

[Bongish]

It's not the Koran, it's some anti-islamic interpretation. I could twist the Bible the same way. A very concrete idea in Islam is that the Koran is unable to be correctly translated from Arabic.
it is the Koran.

[Bongish]

Actually, I haven't heard of an atheist doing that.
precisely.

[yyyesiam2]

bongish-i haven't studied enough of the koran in its original text to assume i know enough to debate you. what i want to know is-have you? not an attack-i would really like to know the truth of the matter.

[Bongish]

I've seen several translations, they're basically all the same.

[paintballer687]

1st rule of defense: when faced with a truth you can't refute, attack the source.

nice try.You are using an incorrect source. That is an interpretation of the Koran, not the Koran itself. The Koran is written in Arabic, which contains concepts that are literally impossible to translate into any other language; it has words and ideas that the English language doesn't. Any translation of the Koran is a guess, at best. And you use a translation done by someone trying to make it sound as bad as possible in the first place. You have an incredible, inaccurate source, it's as simple as that.

[paintballer687]

Edit: double post.

[yyyesiam2]

paintballer: is the part about the jews incorrect? that seemed pretty specific.

[paintballer687]

I've seen several translations, they're basically all the same.The Koran is impossible to translate correctly, only the original text is a credible source. Don't you see something wrong here? I'm a Muslim and you're trying to discredit my knowledge of my religion after looking at a twisted interpretation of the Qur'an? I wouldn't go to some anti-christian web site to find an anti-christian interpretation of the Bible and then go attack Christians, that would be ignorant, as you have proven. Honestly, what is your reason for being so intolerant?

[paintballer687]

paintballer: is the part about the jews incorrect? that seemed pretty specific.Which part exactly?

[yyyesiam2]

i'm asking whether the part of the previous post was really in the koran. seems it would be difficult to misinterpret. i'm ignorant of the knowledge-i thought you might be able to check this for me.




Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years. But they are going to hell. 2:96 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/2/index.htm#95)

[paintballer687]

I don't want to rush and give you an answer so quickly, as this is not something I take lightly, but I would like to point out some thoughts. Look at the sentence structure, the terminology, does it sound archaic to you? It seems to be translated by a kindergartener rather than any Islamic scholar. I will have to give a definate answer after I have a chance to check correctly, though.

[paintballer687]

Why don't you give these some food for thought?
http://www.answering-christianity.com/contra.htm
http://www.answering-christianity.com/golden_rule_lie.htm

[yyyesiam2]

walatajidan:ahum 'ʔaḥraṣa 'ln:a'si ʕalay' ḥayaw'tinm wamina 'l:aðiyna 'ʔaʃrakuw' j yawad:u 'ʔaḥaduhum law yuʕam:aru 'ʔalfa sanatinm wama' huwa bimuzaḥziḥihiy mina 'lʕaða'bi 'ʔan yuʕam:ara ql' wa'll:ahu baṣiyrunm bima' yaʕmaluwna

Palmer

And they follow that which the devils recited against Solomon's kingdom;--it was not Solomon who misbelieved 1, but the devils who misbelieved, teaching men sorcery,--and what has been revealed to the two angels at Babylon, Hârût and Mârût 2 yet these taught no one until they said, 'We are but a temptation, so do not misbelieve.'

Pickthall (first name mohammad.)

And thou wilt find them greediest of mankind for life and (greedier) than the idolaters. (Each) one of them would like to be allowed to live a thousand years. And to live (a thousand years) would be no means remove him from the doom. Allah is Seer of what they do.


this is what i found on sacred-texts.com

it doesn't actually say jews in that line, so i read it from the beginning. this section of the qu'ran seems to be talking about all disbelievers, not jews.it says people of israel-referring to jews, christians, and some other group-who don't actually believe like they say they do. it talks about people who twist the word of sacred scriptures (sound familiar?) for their own benefit, people who say they believe to fit in, etc. it basically says there is no point in preaching, because disbelievers will not believe. paintballer-if you find more accurate info, let me know. i only spent a couple of minutes on this-i'm kinda busy.

[yyyesiam2]

what's more, it does seem to be judgemental-not a surprise in organized faith-but it doesn't say these people should be killed by muslims. it pretty obviously declares that allah will take care of that.

[paintballer687]

I would still like to discuss the original text with another who is more fluent in Arabic, but here is a somewhat decent translation of Surah II:96:
-And you will most certainly find them the greediest of men for life than even those who are polytheists; every one of them loves that he should be granted a life of a thousand years, and his geing granted a long life will in now remove him further of from the chastisement, and Allah sees what they do.

It's not exact by any means, and it is very similar to what you found yessiam2, but hopefully I can post a better translation shortly. But yes, it by no means is talking to the Jews, it is talking about all who are against God, if anything it's definately not talking to the Jews. Remember, Jews and Christians are People of the Book.

You can see that bongish's translation:
-Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years. But they are going to hell.

Is horribly twisted, it's translated incorrectly and with a bias, never does anything about the Jews or hell appear in the original scripture, it has been added in. Bongish, you can't possibly accept any truth in your source.

[Posthumous]

it talks about people who twist the word of sacred scriptures (sound familiar?) for their own benefit, people who say they believe to fit in, etc. it basically says there is no point in preaching, because disbelievers will not believe. .
Didn't Mohammad label the Jews "Hypocrites"? Wouldn't this indicate he did not consider them worthy?

[paintballer687]

Not to my knowledge, but I know it does not say so in the Qur'an. Judaism and Islam have many things in common, the basic beliefs are somewhat varied but many practices are shared between the two religions.

[Posthumous]

Not to my knowledge, but I know it does not say so in the Qur'an. Judaism and Islam have many things in common, the basic beliefs are somewhat varied but many practices are shared between the two religions.

I read the whole story about him fighting the Jews in the desert whom he called hypocrites in some old encyclopedia, so it was prolly a poor translation.

[paintballer687]

Ah, I know what it is you are refering to. You are talking of a faulty alliance between the Moslems and a few Jewish and pagan tribes in Medina; while 'hypocracy' would still not be an accurate descriptor, note that it had nothing to do with religion and was pure politics.

[Posthumous]

Ah, I know what it is you are refering to. You are talking of a faulty alliance between the Moslems and a few Jewish and pagan tribes in Medina; while 'hypocracy' would not be an accurate descriptor, note that it had nothing to do with religion and was pure politics.
Can you give the better translation? "Liars" maybe?

[paintballer687]

You're missing the point; regardless of what he did or didn't say, if he said anything it was not about Judaism as a religion, it was about these specific tribes in a political sense, not religious.

[Posthumous]

You're missing the point; regardless of what he did or didn't say, if he said anything it was not about Judaism as a religion, it was about these specific tribes in a political sense, not religious.No I got what you meant. I was just wondering the more accurate translation of what he called the rival tribe. No biggie.

[Posthumous]

Also, would you call Moslem sects of the Sufis, Aghakhanis, Dawoodi Bohras, and Qadianis the most peace loving? Which is the most peace loving of these, and would you add any other sects to the list. And which sects are the most dangerous?

[paintballer687]

I apologize, my misunderstanding. While there was never any actual name calling (that I am aware of) I am almost sure you are referring to the general thought towards the two Jewish tribes. Two members of the Jewish tribes tried to assassinate Muhammad, and while I am not saying they were solely self-influenced, they were seen as traitors, not hypocrites.

[yyyesiam2]

he probably called them jews, and if so, it was because that's what that group of people called themselves-not because he was referring to all jews. kind of like one of those logical comparison questions they have on those online IQ tests.

[Posthumous]

I apologize, my misunderstanding. While there was never any actual name calling (that I am aware of) I am almost sure you are referring to the general thought towards the two Jewish tribes. Two members of the Jewish tribes tried to assassinate Muhammad, and while I am not saying they were solely self-influenced, they were seen as traitors, not hypocrites.
Muhammad was considered Jewish, same as Jesus right? Or was he Christian?

[yyyesiam2]

didn't see this page before i posted. guess my post was kind of unneeded. let's pretend it didn't happen.

[paintballer687]

Also, would you call Moslem sects of the Sufis, Aghakhanis, Dawoodi Bohras, and Qadianis the most peace loving? Which is the most peace loving of these, and would you add any other sects to the list. And which sects are the most dangerous?Ah, I'm afraid I cannot help much here, I am Sunni and focus around Sunni faith; I recognize other sects politically, but feel they are not true Islam. I am only really familiar with the Sufi, and not very at that. I understand they tend to be isolated as well as peaceful. From my limited knowledge I know the Dawoodi Bohras are corrupted, using religious power for personal gain. As for the Ahmadi, I know virtually nothing of them; I don't believe I've even heard of the Aghakhani.

I noticed you did not include Sunni or Shi'a, so I'm guessing you already have at least some knowledge upon them. I would like to add that I in no way support the Shi'a, justify their beliefs, or recognize them as Muslims. As you know, sex outside of marriage is against religion. For example, the Shi'a believe in a marriage lasting about a day purely to engage in sexual activity, not for procreation either. Saddam Hussein is a Shi'a, as well as nearly all of the Muslims shown on the media. The media has a way of treating Shi'a beliefs as Islam as a whole, while it is most definately not the case seeing as Shi'as are among a very small minority. I was watching a recent interview with the head of the U.S. Army in Iraq; he was asked whether he knew the difference between a Sunni and a Shi'a, and he did not. I know this does not pertain to your question but I would just like to sieze the oppurtunity to point out some of the flawed information that seems to be circulating our nation.. =/

[paintballer687]

Muhammad was considered Jewish, same as Jesus right? Or was he Christian?Yes, as a matter of fact he was.

[relaxxx]

It's not exact by any means, and it is very similar to what you found yessiam2, but hopefully I can post a better translation shortly. But yes, it by no means is talking to the Jews, it is talking about all who are against God, if anything it's definately not talking to the Jews. Remember, Jews and Christians are People of the Book.
How can you say he is by no means talking about Jews? First of all he’s talking about anyone who doesn’t follow your God Allah



I was curious so I downloaded an English translation from a peaceful, honest looking Muslim web site and found this same paragraph in question. It’s probably a “toned down” translation but still accurate. The version I have says “Wrongdoers” in place of “Jews” but the previous paragraph is talking about how Moses “did them wrong by following another God” so it is absolutely clear that they are indeed talking about Jews as we know them today. So the quote is essentially accurate.



Another thing that seems to prevail in almost every page of this book is how all the non-believers, anyone with any sort of opposition to Allah will be dealt with and suffer most grievous eternal consequences. Opposition is even too strong of a word, anyone with an independent thought that differs from the word of Allah as told by Mohamed.

Basically the book is 300+ pages pre-medieval, childish name-calling, “My God is better than your good, nah nah ne nah nah…”. This is hatemongering WAR FUEL that about a billion people orbit their lives around. It has destroyed as many lives as it has brought the promise of paradise to. There will never be peace on earth as long as children are being brainwashed to hate. This chain of madness, circle of hate and destruction has got to be broken!!!!!! You just can't deny it!!

[yyyesiam2]

allah is their word for god. it's the same god-they even mention their angels talked to moses. i read it, man, and it talks badly of the followers of moses who chose to be idolators-as an example of non-believers-not moses himself. as far as these non-believers suffering, that is a universal idea. the qu'ran is just more graphic-not even much more graphic than the bible. it isn't saying that its followers should cause this suffering, just that it will take place when one has no faith. for you to see so much negativity and hate in this, reflects your innerstate, and not that of the writer.

[relaxxx]

Did you not watch the video I talked about earlier? Do you ever see the news from the middle east? Where were you on 9-11? Millions of these people are acting on this hate, this is an undeniable fact!!! Mob scenes, violence and death threats over cartoons!!! What planet do you live on where this is not 100% obvious!!??

Are you honestly trying to tell me that you believe religious extremists don’t ever take violent action from this book? Are you fucking kidding me?????!!! That’s absolutely ludicrous!!! Open your eyes man!!!!

[Enlil6]

Is religion dead yet to you?

Time to awaken. Religion is getting you nowhere. http://static.bbmp3.com/smilies/banghead.gif Faith in God is getting you nowhere. Have no morals for a change. And go by what you know instead of what you believe for a change. The mention of hell is what got many people trapped into religion in the first place. Free your minds from thinking hell will get you if you dont believe. Dont let religion rob you blinded.
Having no morals doesnt mean you a killer or etc. Nothing is a sin. The whole thing about sin was made up to keep your mind on hell. Screw hell! Screw heaven!

Yes, there is a higher power, but it aint God! So get your minds right and live without more stress on the brain. Who feel me?
So who says religion has to have a heaven and hell, sin and morals? My religion has none of these things, and on top of all this I am a free thinker.

So does this mean I am going nowhere?

[joe07735]

I refuse to get entangled in the semantics plagueing this thread, but I will drop my OPINION on religion.

Religions are all good as long as one knows how to intelligently apply them to their own lives. However, when one of say christianity is exposed to a muslim they feel the need to convert the muslim to christianity to "save" them. The same is true for most religions where converting the "misled" is a virtue of some form. If the other person is perfectly content with their religion and has strong enough faith they will undoubtedly attempt to "save" the person that attempted to "save" them. This will lead to conflict. Now in our global world where international borders and boundries shrink daily, coupled with our global economy these disputes and conflicts become much more widespread and deadly serious. Case in point is Israel vs. majority of the middle east.

Thus religion is outdated and flawed. If you raise a child to praise the great elder spirit and instill in them the values of said spirit, they will violently believe in it. I am an atheist so this will bias my opinion, but I believe that only through unity and lack of religion can we ever truly find peace.

[paintballer687]

How can you say he is by no means talking about Jews? First of all he’s talking about anyone who doesn’t follow your God Allah



I was curious so I downloaded an English translation from a peaceful, honest looking Muslim web site and found this same paragraph in question. It’s probably a “toned down” translation but still accurate. The version I have says “Wrongdoers” in place of “Jews” but the previous paragraph is talking about how Moses “did them wrong by following another God” so it is absolutely clear that they are indeed talking about Jews as we know them today. So the quote is essentially accurate.



Another thing that seems to prevail in almost every page of this book is how all the non-believers, anyone with any sort of opposition to Allah will be dealt with and suffer most grievous eternal consequences. Opposition is even too strong of a word, anyone with an independent thought that differs from the word of Allah as told by Mohamed.

Basically the book is 300+ pages pre-medieval, childish name-calling, “My God is better than your good, nah nah ne nah nah…”. This is hatemongering WAR FUEL that about a billion people orbit their lives around. It has destroyed as many lives as it has brought the promise of paradise to. There will never be peace on earth as long as children are being brainwashed to hate. This chain of madness, circle of hate and destruction has got to be broken!!!!!! You just can't deny it!!You show about the same intelligence and logical reasoning skills of a second grader. Allah is the same God that the Jews and the Christians worship. Islam embraces the Bible and Torah as a message from God. It accepts all the prophets of Judaism and Christianity. It's obvious you are not knowledgeable in Islam and have no right to make false claims upon my religion, it's apparent you are speaking from bias. Just because you assume that he is talking about Jews doesn't mean you're right.

[paintballer687]

Did you not watch the video I talked about earlier? Do you ever see the news from the middle east? Where were you on 9-11? Millions of these people are acting on this hate, this is an undeniable fact!!! Mob scenes, violence and death threats over cartoons!!! What planet do you live on where this is not 100% obvious!!??

Are you honestly trying to tell me that you believe religious extremists don’t ever take violent action from this book? Are you fucking kidding me?????!!! That’s absolutely ludicrous!!! Open your eyes man!!!!The entire world once believed the earth was flat, obviously this is an undeniable fact as well? By believing the media you only show that you lack the intelligence to think for yourself; you show nothing but ignorance and extreme bias. You can't even differentiate what the media claims as Islam; the vast majority of so called 'extremists' are Shi'a, they don't believe in mainstream Islam. It's like me seeing a KKK group hanging an African-American on the news. Obviously this means the entire nation of America, all Christians across the world are members of the KKK, right?

You ask me to open my eyes when you cannot open yours.

[paintballer687]

allah is their word for god. it's the same god-they even mention their angels talked to moses. i read it, man, and it talks badly of the followers of moses who chose to be idolators-as an example of non-believers-not moses himself. as far as these non-believers suffering, that is a universal idea. the qu'ran is just more graphic-not even much more graphic than the bible. it isn't saying that its followers should cause this suffering, just that it will take place when one has no faith. for you to see so much negativity and hate in this, reflects your innerstate, and not that of the writer.And one major concept people often confuse is they think Islam states than any non-believers will burn in hell forever, when it embraces the opposite. It states that any and all may reach heaven, although it may take some time. Islam is basically the same as what Christianity and Judaism once were, it just claims that they have been corrupted, which has been proven since history. Never will any Jews, Christians, even satanics be condemned to hell for eternity in Islam.

[BlackBillBlake]

So who says religion has to have a heaven and hell, sin and morals? My religion has none of these things, and on top of all this I am a free thinker.

So does this mean I am going nowhere?
Could mean you've already arrived there -

Maybe it's not a place but a journey...

[relaxxx]

The entire world once believed the earth was flat, obviously this is an undeniable fact as well? By believing the media you only show that you lack the intelligence to think for yourself; you show nothing but ignorance and extreme bias. You can't even differentiate what the media claims as Islam; the vast majority of so called 'extremists' are Shi'a, they don't believe in mainstream Islam. It's like me seeing a KKK group hanging an African-American on the news. Obviously this means the entire nation of America, all Christians across the world are members of the KKK, right?

You ask me to open my eyes when you cannot open yours. First you were positive that I made up those quotes, then you were positive that the Koran couldn’t be translated, then you were positive that they couldn’t possibly talking about Jews. The only thing your consistent with is how positively wrong you are! YOU are the one insisting the world is flat!!! You’re dancing around the subject with pointless insults and irrelevant garbage in a pathetic and desperate attempt to discredit my posts and cloud the actual topic at hand.



The God damn KKK, a very very small population (more like a few families) of religious Southern American Christians are not conspiring for nuclear weapons to carry out the genocide of 6 million people. Yes their called Shi'a Muslim, as if I give a fuck about the naming details, what’s important is the FACT that they represent 89% of the Iranian religious population, about 61 Million people OPENLY hell bent on the GENOCIDE of the Jewish race!!!



I am no media tool, I’m not brainwashed with deep seeded emotional hatred for any race. I don’t hate any Muslims, I hate the SICKNESS of extremist religion that they are stricken with. It’s kind of ironic that I make a post warning people of the most hateful, destructive, sick, and twisted shit I’ve witnessed and all I get is attacked as if I was the Ignorant hate monger! We are reaching the “End of Days”, destroying this planet, not because religion predicted it but because the ignorant, sickened religious BILLIONS have WILLED IT TO BE!!!



YOU are hopelessly lost!!!!!!!!

[yyyesiam2]

"Did you not watch the video I talked about earlier? Do you ever see the news from the middle east? Where were you on 9-11? Millions of these people are acting on this hate, this is an undeniable fact!!! Mob scenes, violence and death threats over cartoons!!! What planet do you live on where this is not 100% obvious!!??

Are you honestly trying to tell me that you believe religious extremists don’t ever take violent action from this book? Are you fucking kidding me?????!!! That’s absolutely ludicrous!!! Open your eyes man!!!!"


sure they take action, but it's over a false interpretation. you have more in common with these extremists than most muslims. as far as the news-this does not represent the majority. it represents what those in control of the media want ignorant people to believe is the majority. a simple audio/visual class in high school could teach you the basics of that system. what you're not getting is that i am not trying to deny what is going on-but these people are such a small percentage of the actual muslim population, and aren't even considered muslim by the majority. it's really easy to take the hurt that has been caused by these people, turn it into hatred, and focus it on a huge group of people. this is something this is what you are criticizing organized religion of doing, and yet very obviously doing it yourself. it's much harder to investigate for yourself the true circumstances and see people as individuals-each with their own story. i used to think atheists were automatically intelligent for rejecting organized religion, but you have shown me my error. you are ignorantly stereotyping a much larger number of people than you probably even realize, who don't even belong in the same group. stereotyping people who do belong in the same group is ridiculous, and the things you are stating are beyond anything that could be considered coherent.

[yyyesiam2]

by the way, if the world is dying, it is the result of many factors. for you to blame religion for this.....is this all a joke? did you just want to see what people on here would say if you brought up the most generic, ignorant statements you could think of? i don't understand how someone could think this way at your age.

[paintballer687]

First you were positive that I made up those quotes, then you were positive that the Koran couldn’t be translated, then you were positive that they couldn’t possibly talking about Jews. The only thing your consistent with is how positively wrong you are! YOU are the one insisting the world is flat!!! You’re dancing around the subject with pointless insults and irrelevant garbage in a pathetic and desperate attempt to discredit my posts and cloud the actual topic at hand.
What's wrong with peing positive? I take pride in the amount of time I dedicate to research the subject upon which I debate, unlike you. I insist the world is flat? You are the one who just said you believe that whatever everyone else is believing at the current time must be true. I am the one dancing around the subjects with pointless insults and irrevlevant garbage in a desperate attempt to discredit your posts? Take a look in the mirror buddy, you just described yourself exactly.


The God damn KKK, a very very small population (more like a few families) of religious Southern American Christians are not conspiring for nuclear weapons to carry out the genocide of 6 million people. Yes their called Shi'a Muslim, as if I give a fuck about the naming details, what’s important is the FACT that they represent 89% of the Iranian religious population, about 61 Million people OPENLY hell bent on the GENOCIDE of the Jewish race!!!

So you're making up statistics now? And you know that 61 million people are hell bent on genocide? How? Oh, right, the media told you. I'm not even sure if Muslims in general make up 89% of Iran; but I can tell you that Shi'as make up a very, very small percentage of the Muslim population. The fact here is you have decided to create ficticious lies in an attempt to discredit my knowledge.

I am no media tool, I’m not brainwashed with deep seeded emotional hatred for any race. I don’t hate any Muslims, I hate the SICKNESS of extremist religion that they are stricken with. It’s kind of ironic that I make a post warning people of the most hateful, destructive, sick, and twisted shit I’ve witnessed and all I get is attacked as if I was the Ignorant hate monger! We are reaching the “End of Days”, destroying this planet, not because religion predicted it but because the ignorant, sickened religious BILLIONS have WILLED IT TO BE!!!

You stereotyped Muslims and now you say you don't hate them. Hypocrisy at its finest.

YOU are hopelessly lost!!!!!!!!Ironic.

[paintballer687]

"Did you not watch the video I talked about earlier? Do you ever see the news from the middle east? Where were you on 9-11? Millions of these people are acting on this hate, this is an undeniable fact!!! Mob scenes, violence and death threats over cartoons!!! What planet do you live on where this is not 100% obvious!!??

Are you honestly trying to tell me that you believe religious extremists don’t ever take violent action from this book? Are you fucking kidding me?????!!! That’s absolutely ludicrous!!! Open your eyes man!!!!"


sure they take action, but it's over a false interpretation. you have more in common with these extremists than most muslims. as far as the news-this does not represent the majority. it represents what those in control of the media want ignorant people to believe is the majority. a simple audio/visual class in high school could teach you the basics of that system. what you're not getting is that i am not trying to deny what is going on-but these people are such a small percentage of the actual muslim population, and aren't even considered muslim by the majority. it's really easy to take the hurt that has been caused by these people, turn it into hatred, and focus it on a huge group of people. this is something this is what you are criticizing organized religion of doing, and yet very obviously doing it yourself. it's much harder to investigate for yourself the true circumstances and see people as individuals-each with their own story. i used to think atheists were automatically intelligent for rejecting organized religion, but you have shown me my error. you are ignorantly stereotyping a much larger number of people than you probably even realize, who don't even belong in the same group. stereotyping people who do belong in the same group is ridiculous, and the things you are stating are beyond anything that could be considered coherent.Exactly. Relaxx you are ranting on like a 10 year old who can't have his way. Science is based on accuracy and precision of data, if there is the slightest notion that a set of data has impurities, it is discarded. The same applies here; you have not been to this countries, you do not know these people, yet you continue to stereotype them and try and tell me your 'facts'. By logical reasoning it is literally impossible for you to have a correct view of the current situation; such means every one of your statements lack credibility. If you cannot see this in a moral or ethical way, hopefully you can see it logically, if not, unfortunately I suspect it is you, sir, who are hopelessly lost.

[themnax]

much of the discourse in this thread would suggest, by it's very nature, not so much that religeon is dead, but that the good purpose of all beliefs, has become forgotten and obscured by these loud voices arguing the dark sides of one belief versus the dark sides of another.

=^^=
.../\...

one might well ask; "is love dead?"
is wishing to build heavens instead of hells dead?

or instead, are these things merely being occluded and out shouted by fantical voices of gratuitous hatred from ALL sides?

figgs are not born of thistles.

the world is not made a better place by brutalizing it with war.
and don't try to tell me "the other guy started it".

politicians started it. not christ, or mahammid or baha'u'llah or any other revealer of organized belief.

and for resons that don't have a damd thing to do with any belief either
whatever fanatical corporate idology tries to pretend to the contrary.

christianity does NOT = belief
islam does NOT = belief

christianity and islam ARE beliefS. two among many.
and those who use either against the other do not deserve to be called either, nor anything other then corrupt.

=^^=
.../\...

[relaxxx]

So you're making up statistics now? And you know that 61 million people are hell bent on genocide? How? Oh, right, the media told you. I'm not even sure if Muslims in general make up 89% of Iran; but I can tell you that Shi'as make up a very, very small percentage of the Muslim population. The fact here is you have decided to create ficticious lies in an attempt to discredit my knowledge.
According to Nationmaster, CIA world factbook, and the Religious Freedom report YOU are WRONG AGAIN!!!



Middle East > Iran > Religion statistics



Click for larger flag of Iran

View full size

IRANIAN RELIGION STATS: All Stats



View this page with: Just Stats Sources Definitions Both

Islam > Percentage: 99%

Islam > Percentage Muslim: 99%

Islam > Population: 67,337,681

Jews: 25,000

(per capita): 0.36755 per 1,000 people

Religions

Shi'a Muslim 89%, Sunni Muslim 9%, Zoroastrian, Jewish, Christian, and Baha'i 2%

Religions > All

Shi'a Muslim 89%, Sunni Muslim 9%, Zoroastrian, Jewish, Christian, and Baha'i 2%

Religions > Muslim: 89 %

Seventh-day Adventist Membership: 20

(per capita): 2.94 per 10 million people



SOURCES: CIA World Factbook; International Religious Freedom Report 2004; World Jewish Congress (WJC), 1998







I’ve yet to see you attempt to back up any of your ridiculous excuses, your worthless insults and cloud cover aren’t worth my time to even read anymore, reply if you want with more nonsense and LIES but I won’t be reading any of it. It’s a pointless waste of my time!

[yyyesiam2]

wow, it's over. we can all relaxxx.

[Bongish]

I’ve yet to see you attempt to back up any of your ridiculous excuses, your worthless insults and cloud cover aren’t worth my time to even read anymore, reply if you want with more nonsense and LIES but I won’t be reading any of it. It’s a pointless waste of my time!
seems we reached the same conclusion.

We must be right!!!!

[yyyesiam2]

must be.

[yyyesiam2]

right.

[paintballer687]

According to Nationmaster, CIA world factbook, and the Religious Freedom report YOU are WRONG AGAIN!!!
If the head of intelligence of the 'war in Iraq' doesn't even know the difference between a Sunni and a Shi'a, what makes you think they will have any idea as to the statistics? Even if it is true, it would be the one exception that every rule has. You continue to focus on Iran, one country, I am talking about Islam as a whole; the fact is Sunni's vastly outnumber Shi'a, as you can plainly see I am not wrong. Besides, if Iran is mostly Shi'a that only furthers my point; Shi'a are only recognized as Muslims by themselves, they are not Muslim as far as the majority of Muslims are concerned.

And regarding to government, history has shown us the benefits of questioning authority; you my friend, are a tool for them, their slave.





I’ve yet to see you attempt to back up any of your ridiculous excuses, your worthless insults and cloud cover aren’t worth my time to even read anymore, reply if you want with more nonsense and LIES but I won’t be reading any of it. It’s a pointless waste of my time!It seems the world today thinks that because they take a few minutes to research a subject the automatically become experts. To truly gain credibility you must learn first hand; surgeons don't truly gain experience about operating by using Google. You have made it apparent that you lack the will to controlling an open mind.