A little question.

[Nathan11]

Why is The Old Testement still in the Holy Bible if the Old Testement rulings are nill and void?

[mynameiskc]

they're not null and void, it's just okay now if we're completely incapable of following them. following many of the rules and wisdom in the OT DOES make for a more fulfilling and peaceful life. but we're just so convinced of our own wisdom that we refuse to be told what to do or to learn from other people's experiences. such is humankind. we're a pack of assholes in general. hence the wisdom and sacrifice of christ.

[brothersun]

I agree alot of the old test. is there to illustrate that we cannot life up to Gods standards. You break one law its like breaking them all. Thats were Jesus comes in. He died and took all this upon himself. All you have to do now is believe in Jesus and what he has done for the world and you will be saved. Once you take that leap in faith you give Jesus the oppurtunity to work through you and make you a better person. He does the work, we just have to submit. Which is harder then anything you have ever done in your life. But it becomes easier when you see the fruits.

[Nathan11]

they're not null and void, it's just okay now if we're completely incapable of following them. following many of the rules and wisdom in the OT DOES make for a more fulfilling and peaceful life. but we're just so convinced of our own wisdom that we refuse to be told what to do or to learn from other people's experiences. such is humankind. we're a pack of assholes in general. hence the wisdom and sacrifice of christ.
I'm not sure I'm following you...
Could you please explain it again?

[mynameiskc]

what part?

[Nathan11]

what part?
Heh, pretty much all of it.
:-\
Would you mind?

[mynameiskc]

the rules and lessons of the OT are not null and void. they're still worthy of listening to and learning from. if we were to follow many of the the teachings of the OT, our personal experiences on this plane would be more enjoyable and fulfilling. however, we suck at that. we are incapable of perfection. therefore, jesus came here to enforce and fulfill the law for us. he's our loophole, created by god. how's that?

[Nathan11]

the rules and lessons of the OT are not null and void. they're still worthy of listening to and learning from. if we were to follow many of the the teachings of the OT, our personal experiences on this plane would be more enjoyable and fulfilling. however, we suck at that. we are incapable of perfection. therefore, jesus came here to enforce and fulfill the law for us. he's our loophole, created by god. how's that?
That's a lot better, thank you very much, doll.
Now, one more question.
Are there any rules or laws in the OT you think it is 'necessary' to follow?

[mynameiskc]

depends on what you consider necessary for your life, i suppose. i personally adore the sexual/spritual love and huamn bonding of the song of solomon. i like the simplicity of the dietary advice of leviticus. the 10 commandments, when followed, make for a stable, loving, peaceful and fulfilling life. these are things that speak to me. someone else may have a different idea of where they need guidance. and i have to confess, some of the laws are too harsh for me since they refer to sins of parents being visited upon the following generations. however, i've come to believe that many of these were more along the lines of cautionary measures, telling us that the wrongs we do against each other will cause suffering (not necessarily by god) to our children. every act has ramifications.


so yeah, i do consider the laws to be necessary. however, no one here is perfect. and when you strive to follow those rules too perfectly, as in when they're in direct conflict with common sense loving of our neighbors, then it's just as well to not follow any of them.

[mynameiskc]

also, in reference to the laws put down in the OT, jesus simplified how we approach those laws with his statement that the first great commandment is to love god, and the second is to love you neighbor. upon these two laws hang all the laws, etc. if you don't scrutinize your actions and your obedience to the law through these two great commandments, the particulars are pointless.

[Nathan11]

Ah, thank you very much.
I dig what you're sayin!

[mynameiskc]

oh, good. glad to clarify my personal beliefs on the topic. just ot let you know, though, i tend to really piss other christians off. i'm too anti-establishment for them.

[Nathan11]

oh, good. glad to clarify my personal beliefs on the topic. just ot let you know, though, i tend to really piss other christians off. i'm too anti-establishment for them.
Well, not all Christians are sheep.
(Which I am just realizing)
You know, I'm glad to see a good, kind person like you on the forums, there aren't many.

[TrippinBTM]

Ok, I'm no Bible scholar, so don't get all mad at me if I'm wrong or something, but I swear that Jesus stated that he came not to void the laws of the Jews, and that not one will be forgotten on judgement day. Doesn't that mean we should all still be bound by all the laws set down in the OT? I think Paul argued differently, but I mean, I think Jesus trumps Paul...

[Epiphany]

Mynameiskc is right. All the rules are important, but it is impossible to follow each and every one since as humans, we are not perfect. God knows what lies in our hearts and he is aware if we strive to follow them, but don't always match up, or if we simply cast them aside just because we do not like what they say. For example, "You shall not covet", we can try but at times it can seem almost impossible not to wish that you had something (not always material) that someone else possesses.

[mynameiskc]

Ok, I'm no Bible scholar, so don't get all mad at me if I'm wrong or something, but I swear that Jesus stated that he came not to void the laws of the Jews, and that not one will be forgotten on judgement day. Doesn't that mean we should all still be bound by all the laws set down in the OT? I think Paul argued differently, but I mean, I think Jesus trumps Paul...
you're right. jesus didn't come to erase the law but to enforce it. but what was intended by that is that he followed them all perfectly FOR us, since he and god knew perfectly well we were totally incapable of it. then he was sacrificed. just as the jews would sacrifice a perfect lamb for their sins to wash away their wrongdoing. and god would know christ's followers by their works, which is to say, those who truly embrace christ's sacrifice truly would strive to be better people. they would naturally be better at it than those who don't believe because they ahve the helper with them. christ was the stop-gap for those times when we falter and are confused.

[mynameiskc]

Well, not all Christians are sheep.
(Which I am just realizing)
You know, I'm glad to see a good, kind person like you on the forums, there aren't many.
wow. thank you for that. that's very kind.

[Nathan11]

wow. thank you for that. that's very kind.
You're more than welcome, doll.

[mynameiskc]

aw, you're officially on my big hug prayer list.

[tom]

he's our loophole, created by god

So tattoo's and shellfish are all good? Two things in THIS world that make me very very happy

[mynameiskc]

So tattoo's and shellfish are all good? Two things in THIS world that make me very very happydietary restrictions, and i'm assuming restrictions against tattoos (is that in the OT?) were put in place to protect the health of people who didn't have sanitation methods or any way to see those dirty little nasties that can kill us. though shellfish still proves to be rather bad for us, as does pork, either in moderation i can't see being all that big a deal.

[TrippinBTM]

you're right. jesus didn't come to erase the law but to enforce it. but what was intended by that is that he followed them all perfectly FOR us, since he and god knew perfectly well we were totally incapable of it. then he was sacrificed. just as the jews would sacrifice a perfect lamb for their sins to wash away their wrongdoing. and god would know christ's followers by their works, which is to say, those who truly embrace christ's sacrifice truly would strive to be better people. they would naturally be better at it than those who don't believe because they ahve the helper with them. christ was the stop-gap for those times when we falter and are confused.
I gotta say, that sounds like the biggest cop-out in history. Besides, he didn't follow them perfectly, he was out working on the Sabbath, and he pissed off the higher-ups in doing so.

And Christians are no more moral than anyone else, as a group.

[mynameiskc]

I gotta say, that sounds like the biggest cop-out in history. Besides, he didn't follow them perfectly, he was out working on the Sabbath, and he pissed off the higher-ups in doing so.

And Christians are no more moral than anyone else, as a group.
aw, man, you shouldn't get so riled. the 'work' christ did on the sabbath was something that would please god, ie. helping his fellow man. what's more moral, sittingon your butt as someone is dying across the road, or helping the poor guy out? and since the sabbath was set aside for the contemplation of, discussion of, and connecting to god, then he followed the true spirit of the law that god intended. those people who were so adamant about following the letter of god's law completely ingnored the spirit of god's law. god set aside the sabbath for people to rest and re-connect. but you CAN'T ethically follow that law when your fellow man is in need.

[Nathan11]

aw, man, you shouldn't get so riled. the 'work' christ did on the sabbath was something that would please god, ie. helping his fellow man. what's more moral, sittingon your butt as someone is dying across the road, or helping the poor guy out? and since the sabbath was set aside for the contemplation of, discussion of, and connecting to god, then he followed the true spirit of the law that god intended. those people who were so adamant about following the letter of god's law completely ingnored the spirit of god's law. god set aside the sabbath for people to rest and re-connect. but you CAN'T ethically follow that law when your fellow man is in need.
Good point.
I, myself, have pondered on this, also.

aw, you're officially on my big hug prayer list.
I'm glad to see that. Pray good things for me. Let me be touched in some way from the devine.

You're really great.
:D

[mynameiskc]

i'll do that, nathan. and however he finds you, i hope ya'll have a good talk.

[Nathan11]

I know we will, thank you.

<3

[TrippinBTM]

aw, man, you shouldn't get so riled. the 'work' christ did on the sabbath was something that would please god, ie. helping his fellow man. what's more moral, sittingon your butt as someone is dying across the road, or helping the poor guy out? and since the sabbath was set aside for the contemplation of, discussion of, and connecting to god, then he followed the true spirit of the law that god intended. those people who were so adamant about following the letter of god's law completely ingnored the spirit of god's law. god set aside the sabbath for people to rest and re-connect. but you CAN'T ethically follow that law when your fellow man is in need.
Don't worry, I'm not riled. I see what your saying, and I agree. I don't put much stock in religious laws myself, but it seems if thats part of your religion (Judaism and Christianity) then it seems like you should be following it. (I say "you" in a general way). It seems dishonest to be saying, "yeah, we're bound by the laws, but Jesus did it for us so we don't REALLY have to follow them..."

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

[mynameiskc]

Don't worry, I'm not riled. I see what your saying, and I agree. I don't put much stock in religious laws myself, but it seems if thats part of your religion (Judaism and Christianity) then it seems like you should be following it. (I say "you" in a general way). It seems dishonest to be saying, "yeah, we're bound by the laws, but Jesus did it for us so we don't REALLY have to follow them..."

You can't have your cake and eat it too.
it's not like that. there's a lot of things people are supposed to do, but somethings we are just incapable of doing sometimes. like not wanting somethign nice that someone else has, or not looking lustfully upon someone else. we can't help that, god saw that, and sent jesus. that's the point of jesus.

[Brocktoon]

The New is in the Old contained,

The Old is in the New explained.

:D