Pro-Life

[renee]

Yeah, I'm pro-life and most hippies aren't... Well, the story is... My friend Keith (which I think is a member on here) I think doesn't like me that much anymore because I'm pro-life and he's pro-choice and we had a lil fight about it... I thought hippies were supposed to be nature loving people? :confused: I think it's lame.... Just my opinion... Don't hurt me! AHHH!!!!:p

[LaughinWillow]

I actually part ways with most "hippies" and the "left" on this issue as well. No one has EVER been able to convince me that killing a fetus isn't killing a human being, and I completely reject the willful, unnecessary killing of any living thing. I also think that abortion is just another sick manifestation of the lack of concern for human life that exists in state societies. I finally believe that telling women that sexual "choice" means the "choice" to kill a viable human being, rather than the "choice" to have INTERCOURSE in the first place or not is insulting and suggests that women are unable to control their sexual behavior. I think if people don't want children badly enough that they would rather KILL them than have them, they SHOULD NOT HAVE INTERCOURSE - with or without birth control.

To make a few points clear:
Obviously, I am not referring to women who are raped here. Sexual "choice" is taken away during rape, and women should not be held responsible for the violent choices of some men.

I am not saying, nor am I convinced, that the answer to this problem is making abortion ILLEGAL. I have no desire to see women butchered in "back-alley" abortions. Nor do those who generally oppose abortion rights have women or children's best interests in mind - they tend to be the same conservative people who think that the answer is simply to have women GIVE AWAY their children in adoption, and who oppose giving women social services or child care (which might allow and encourage them to keep babies they couldn't otherwise afford). Further, the government has an absolutely PATHETIC record when it comes to enforcing child support orders - many women NEVER receive ANY child support, and men are often free to simply leave their state of residence, or even stay in the state and be ignored by authorities. Conservatives also tend to oppose birth control and sexual education programs, which would eliminate a large percentage of abortions, especially in teens and young adults.

The answer to this problem - and the answer to ALL of our social problems in fact - is to completely change our society so that it values LIFE. Murdering unborn children is insane. Our society is insane. We must BECOME sane if we want to stop murdering children. Unfortunately, it does not appear that this will happen anytime in the near future, as our highest "leaders" continue to refer to butchered children as "collateral damage" and drop depleted uranium, pesticides, and daisy cutters all over the third world, maiming and killing thousands of babies every year. So long as people view THAT as acceptable, abortion will continue, legal or not.

[renee]

I actually part ways with most "hippies" and the "left" on this issue as well. No one has EVER been able to convince me that killing a fetus isn't killing a human being, and I completely reject the willful, unnecessary killing of any living thing. I also think that abortion is just another sick manifestation of the lack of concern for human life that exists in state societies. I finally believe that telling women that sexual "choice" means the "choice" to kill a viable human being, rather than the "choice" to have INTERCOURSE in the first place or not is insulting and suggests that women are unable to control their sexual behavior. I think if people don't want children badly enough that they would rather KILL them than have them, they SHOULD NOT HAVE INTERCOURSE - with or without birth control.

To make a few points clear:
Obviously, I am not referring to women who are raped here. Sexual "choice" is taken away during rape, and women should not be held responsible for the violent choices of some men.

I am not saying, nor am I convinced, that the answer to this problem is making abortion ILLEGAL. I have no desire to see women butchered in "back-alley" abortions. Nor do those who generally oppose abortion rights have women or children's best interests in mind - they tend to be the same conservative people who think that the answer is simply to have women GIVE AWAY their children in adoption, and who oppose giving women social services or child care (which might allow and encourage them to keep babies they couldn't otherwise afford). Further, the government has an absolutely PATHETIC record when it comes to enforcing child support orders - many women NEVER receive ANY child support, and men are often free to simply leave their state of residence, or even stay in the state and be ignored by authorities. Conservatives also tend to oppose birth control and sexual education programs, which would eliminate a large percentage of abortions, especially in teens and young adults.

The answer to this problem - and the answer to ALL of our social problems in fact - is to completely change our society so that it values LIFE. Murdering unborn children is insane. Our society is insane. We must BECOME sane if we want to stop murdering children. Unfortunately, it does not appear that this will happen anytime in the near future, as our highest "leaders" continue to refer to butchered children as "collateral damage" and drop depleted uranium, pesticides, and daisy cutters all over the third world, maiming and killing thousands of babies every year. So long as people view THAT as acceptable, abortion will continue, legal or not.*reads* *nods*

[PurpleMapleTree]

well said LaughinWillow. i'm pro-life, and thats that. i wish that people would come around and value the worth of life, and treasure it. versus killing innocent babies... and people in general for that matter. like you said, it doesnt look like that'll happen any time soon, abortion will keep happening regardless. one can only hope.

[renee]

well said LaughinWillow. i'm pro-life, and thats that. i wish that people would come around and value the worth of life, and treasure it. versus killing innocent babies... and people in general for that matter. like you said, it doesnt look like that'll happen any time soon, abortion will keep happening regardless. one can only hope.*sadface* ya, I guess so.:(

[gonzobug]

hmm

a friend of mine and I had this discusion a while back, gues I can offer a male view on it; ive always believed as a man I have absolutely no busines tellin a woman what or what not to do with her body, Im not carrying a child so I can never know what they think or feel. I can only offer any help or advice they ask for and hope whatever decision they make is best for them and their own conscience.

my personal view is how can anyone casually consider aborting a child?! its not the same as deciding what you want for lunch! but the nsome poeple do and i think that in that case what kind of life would a kid have with a parent like that?
this is one isue where there is no middle ground, as renee said in cases of rape, or in a case of incest, but no one thinks of that when they are ganged up waving their signs an telling others how wrong they are! Many of the ageold arguments dont hold much with me; adoption for one, the idea that if you dont want the child many others would love to have it is good, but has anyone ever pushed for reforms on adoption? my oparents consiered adoption when I was young, since my mother couldnt have any more kids and i was onlt child they wanted to adopt, but were told it would be close to 2 years before they were approved and that it was stil unlikey , because of the family situation, being that my father was a truck driver ad gone a lot, it would be damaging for a child, but yet they had no trouble raising me! And look at how many situations we have of parents giving a child up for adoption then coming back years alter an trying to get custody back! And they sometimes succeed!
if everyone were really passionate about this it seems they would do more to improve the whole situation, but sadly most just turn it into some petty agenda to tel someone what to do.
which poses anothr point, what about these women going to fertility clincs and having 5 or 6 kids!?? and many end up with birth defects or crippled, yet no one sees anything wrong with that, which is just as much tampering with nature as an abortion! Ive mentioned that to several people who claimed to be against abortion, and the answer always is "oh but women want a child of their own its nature" wel doenst that take some of their fire out of the adoption theory to prevent abortion????
id love to hear some of your thoughts on this, as i said my persoanl view is that no one really thinks these amtters through, they just go of on an emotional trip without really considering the hard facts

[Moro]

Well, I think that women should have the right to decide what to do, but, i myself, would NEVER have an abortion.

~Moro (formerly NaturesLittleGirl)

[gonzobug]

I think the biggest problem is when it becomes a politicanl or religious( and to most people it is both) issue. I persoannly feel that anyone morally or religiously opposed to it should spend their time and energy praying for or counseling anyone considering abortion rather than trying to demonize them, as know one else is in that personsshoes nor do they know their motives entirely.
by the same token al these radical supporters should do more research and find out exctly waht they are supporting, my ex gf was a total spporter of womens right to abortion, no matter what, until she saw a schoolmates textbook which gve great detals into partial birth abortion, wherin the baby is actually forcfully deliverd then the doctor inserts a rod into the base of its skull an neck to sever the spinal cord basically killing it with his own hands
personally i think there are too many gray areas, whatif conditions that make it hard to be strictly on one side of the fence or the other, but when you join the big debate you unfortunaly get lumped into one group or the other

[HappyHaHaGirl]

I'm pro life, but pro choice....I think that you should have the choice, but abortion is not birth control and should only be used as a last resort in extreme circumstances. If it was illegal, you would have little girls being poked to death with coathangers in dark alleys and shit like that. That's the last thing we need.

When I got pregnant, I was 17...everyone was giving me advice...like I should give it up for adoption...or if I had an abortion by whenever no one would have to know....
I knew that no matter what choice I made, I was going to think about the baby every day for the rest of my life, because it's my baby. So I decided that, instead of wondering where he was or would be, I would rather know and have him with me and love him and take care of him and never worry about making the wrong decision. And I know I made the right decision. He's the most perfect thing in the world, and he probably saved my life. God knows where I would be if I had just fallen back into my old life.

Do I sound like a preacher? I just got all mommyish there for a second. I don't mean that if you have an abortion that you're a bad person, I just don't think it's always done for the right reasons.

That's my story!!! :)

[Brocktoon]

What struck me as interesting was the notion that being a 'Hippy' was also associated with a 'pro-abortion' or 'pro-choice' stance.

Now im not sure what todays youth think being a Hippy was like, but I can tell you that back in the early 70's I was part of the 'Hippy' lifestyle. Of course, there were all kinds of people with all kinds of beliefs. Granted.
However,
One of the 'common themes' in the subculture was 'Naturism'. The youth were countering a culture that had become obsessed with denaturing, gentrifying and plastic-coating anything it could.

This 'Hippy' thinking went throughout all aspects of life and body. You will notice the long haired and bearded Icons some use here - after all 'Nature' didnt make your hair cut itself off.
Children like myself would go barefoot (after all, in nature animals did)
Herbs and natural products were prefered over pharmaceuticals (although.. this was overlooked a lot when a serious infection came along lol)

Same themes would hold true with pregnancy though. Nature was allowing pregnancy to take its course.
The hippies I knew would say no to artificial unnatural instruments and chemicals being used for abortions.

Abortion would fit into the 'Unnatural' category.. at least in 'said' Hippy thinking of the day.

Im sure it happened and Im sure many wanted to have that choice and took it.
Im mainly talking about the 'mindset' of the day.

Personaly I think aborting a baby is something all of us should always want to avoid at all costs.
This may surprise people but Im horrified and against aborting babies despite being a Christian, ex-hippy kid, or a social conservative.
I simply think Children are awesome, our future and a blessing.
For that reason alone I cant imagine why anyone would want to terminate their development.
As if its a 'bad thing' to have a baby??

Interesting topic and Im glad its been brought up. I never did realise what people were associating 'Hippy' culture with these days.

[StellaBlue]

I actually part ways with most "hippies" and the "left" on this issue as well. No one has EVER been able to convince me that killing a fetus isn't killing a human being, and I completely reject the willful, unnecessary killing of any living thing. I also think that abortion is just another sick manifestation of the lack of concern for human life that exists in state societies. I finally believe that telling women that sexual "choice" means the "choice" to kill a viable human being, rather than the "choice" to have INTERCOURSE in the first place or not is insulting and suggests that women are unable to control their sexual behavior. I think if people don't want children badly enough that they would rather KILL them than have them, they SHOULD NOT HAVE INTERCOURSE - with or without birth control.

To make a few points clear:
Obviously, I am not referring to women who are raped here. Sexual "choice" is taken away during rape, and women should not be held responsible for the violent choices of some men.

I am not saying, nor am I convinced, that the answer to this problem is making abortion ILLEGAL. I have no desire to see women butchered in "back-alley" abortions. Nor do those who generally oppose abortion rights have women or children's best interests in mind - they tend to be the same conservative people who think that the answer is simply to have women GIVE AWAY their children in adoption, and who oppose giving women social services or child care (which might allow and encourage them to keep babies they couldn't otherwise afford). Further, the government has an absolutely PATHETIC record when it comes to enforcing child support orders - many women NEVER receive ANY child support, and men are often free to simply leave their state of residence, or even stay in the state and be ignored by authorities. Conservatives also tend to oppose birth control and sexual education programs, which would eliminate a large percentage of abortions, especially in teens and young adults.

The answer to this problem - and the answer to ALL of our social problems in fact - is to completely change our society so that it values LIFE. Murdering unborn children is insane. Our society is insane. We must BECOME sane if we want to stop murdering children. Unfortunately, it does not appear that this will happen anytime in the near future, as our highest "leaders" continue to refer to butchered children as "collateral damage" and drop depleted uranium, pesticides, and daisy cutters all over the third world, maiming and killing thousands of babies every year. So long as people view THAT as acceptable, abortion will continue, legal or not.
Thank you LaughinWillow! I've stated all of these very points time and time again on these forums and I get attacked for it. I'm glad to see someone feels the same way. :)

[sunshinedaisy11]

for the most part i am against abortion, but i think a woman should have the choice to have an abortion if she is raped and becomes pregnant. i know if i were raped i probably wouldnt want to keep the baby. it's true that there are other options such as adoption, but each of those 9 months of pregnancy would be hell. each and every day would be a constant reminder of what happened to me and it would be so hard to live through. i dont know what my decision would be if i were in that situation because ive never been there, but i think the woman should have the option to do what she chooses in a case like this.

[renee]

I think if a woman got raped and got pregnant they should at least deliver the child and put it up for adotion. Besides, it wasn't the child or children's fault that you got raped. Also, some people who can't have children would love to adopt a child. I think abortion is selfish and vain. :(

[MamaTheLama]

Ok "if a woman is raped" she can have an abortion. How would this LAW work?

Most rapes do not get reported because it's just too friggin emotional...so would this only apply to the women that went to the hospital immediately after being raped and had the little abortion/rape certificate/kit issued to them?

Or would women that can't afford the pregnancy (yes,pregnancy is a very draining, very expensive experience, especially when you're malnourished,overworked and poor..and baby, they don't even give food stamps until you're already 6 months along) have to lie and send their boyfriends/husbands off to jail for rape in order to get an abortion?
Or would they just lie and have the neighbor sent away for rape? Or claim it was mickey mouse just to save their own lives from a high risk pregnancy.

What about incest? Do you know how frightful it is to report that?
And what if the police STOP BELIEVING true rape cases and are even more suspicious of rape victims, thinking they just want an abortion certificate? Do we really want to make reporting a rape even worse of an experience?

Stop forcing values on others through LAW.
Try education, support and love.
We have enough people in prison. Over 2 million in the US alone.

[renee]

Ok "if a woman is raped" she can have an abortion. How would this LAW work?

Most rapes do not get reported because it's just too friggin emotional...so would this only apply to the women that went to the hospital immediately after being raped and had the little abortion/rape certificate/kit issued to them?

Or would women that can't afford the pregnancy (yes,pregnancy is a very draining, very expensive experience, especially when you're malnourished,overworked and poor..and baby, they don't even give food stamps until you're already 6 months along) have to lie and send their boyfriends/husbands off to jail for rape in order to get an abortion?
Or would they just lie and have the neighbor sent away for rape? Or claim it was mickey mouse just to save their own lives from a high risk pregnancy.

What about incest? Do you know how frightful it is to report that?
And what if the police STOP BELIEVING true rape cases and are even more suspicious of rape victims, thinking they just want an abortion certificate? Do we really want to make reporting a rape even worse of an experience?

Stop forcing values on others through LAW.
Try education, support and love.
We have enough people in prison. Over 2 million in the US alone.I'm guessing you're pro-choice?
:confused:

[WaitingForTheSun]

I'm really pro-choice, but I can deal with people being pro-life. I mean, I see where they are coming from with the whole "a fetus is a human" thing and it already having a soul and a life as soon as it is conceived. But then at the same time, I still consider it a part of a woman's body and women should be able to control their own body. They should be able to have as much sexual freedom as they want. I don't believe in using abortion as another form of birth control, but mistakes do happen and some people just aren't ready for kids. I guess I just think it should be someones own decision and if they can live with it, then they should be able to do it. Just thought I'd get my voice out there, have a nice day.

[MamaTheLama]

I'm guessing you're pro-choice?
:confused:No, I'm anti needless imprisonment.
Educating people on HOW TO AVOID ABORTION and support seem more important to me than forcing more people into prisons.

Laws never protect who they're supposed to.
Imagine that it's your son,brother,or husband that goes to prison for rape so a child may be aborted.
Imagine it's your daughter who dies in childbirth because she was too scared to report a rape.
Imagine it's yourself getting leered at by disbelieving officers when you finally get the strength to report the man who raped you.
Imagine living on the streets pregnant. Really imagine it. The cops think you're a hooker and won't give you a certificate,they laugh as they send you away and threaten imprisonment for lying. Your back hurts and there's only concrete, your feet hurt but you have to move on because the police are cleaning up the area on their regular rounds,you're hungry,alone,exausted,no one wants to hire a pregnant woman, never mind a dirty homeless one with no references, you're on the list for food stamps and housing...but one is 3 months away still, and the other is a 5 year waiting list. Yes, you can go through an adoption agency where they will help you almost meet your very most basic needs (hotel room,bus fare,nothing that will last past the time of the birth) in order to keep you poor enough so that you'll still feel that you can't take care of your own baby (and yes, that IS how it works,been there, done that), only to find yourself back on the street,empty and broken.
Now Imagine sending everyone that doesn't believe and act like you do into work camps, concentration camps, and prisons.

I know if I sent everyone that didn't share my beliefs to prison that the world would be very empty. BUT I respect and empower everyone to have their beliefs, and speak their mind,and have their customs and I will share mine with them as much as is appropriate.
I have never picked up the phone to dial 911 because someone worshipped budda (mortal sin..thou shall have no other god before me), was jealous (mortal sin..thou shall not covet), or ate a grape at the supermarket (mortal sin..thou shall not steal)..
does anyone get what I'm saying here?

Before everything else I support one thing :FREEDOM
It's one thing I'm not willing to sacrifice.

[kilted2000]

Is it worse when a fetus is aborted of when a women dies because she had an illegal abortion with a wire hanger?

[kilted2000]

I'm not pro-abortion but I am pro-choice. figure that one out.

[renee]

I'm really pro-choice, but I can deal with people being pro-life. I mean, I see where they are coming from with the whole "a fetus is a human" thing and it already having a soul and a life as soon as it is conceived. But then at the same time, I still consider it a part of a woman's body and women should be able to control their own body. They should be able to have as much sexual freedom as they want. I don't believe in using abortion as another form of birth control, but mistakes do happen and some people just aren't ready for kids. I guess I just think it should be someones own decision and if they can live with it, then they should be able to do it. Just thought I'd get my voice out there, have a nice day.It's really somebody else's body... Pfft, like you'll listen to me.

[renee]

Is it worse when a fetus is aborted of when a women dies because she had an illegal abortion with a wire hanger?That made me sick. :eek:

[Ginge]

I'm not pro-abortion but I am pro-choice. figure that one out.
I agree. And I agree with WaitingForTheSun, too.

I'm not "pro-abortion". I don't think anybody LIKES the thought or act of abortions. Personally, I know I would never have an abortion, but I am pro-choice in that I feel a woman should have the right to choose.

[Mintaoism]

A baby shouldn't be brought into this world if it isn't going to be loved or cared for. The woman should know that she is pregnant before 3-4. I think it is wrong to abort after 4-5 months depending on status.

[HappyHaHaGirl]

Yeah....really, the biggest reason for sex is to reproduce, but when chicks get pregnant, they're all like, "How did this happen????" Duh....


If you aren't prepared to face the responsibility of having children, I don't know if I think you should be having sex....but that's kind of extreme thinking for today, I guess, when kids have sex like our parents used to hold hands....

[renee]

Pro-choice people get on my nerves. The first thing that they ask me is... What if they get raped?! Are you against that too?! *grinds teeth* GRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!:eek:

[Ginge]

Pro-choice people get on my nerves. The first thing that they ask me is... What if they get raped?! Are you against that too?! *grinds teeth* GRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!:eek:
Not all pro-choice people are like that. I'm not. I could say some things that pro-life/anti-choice people do and say that get on my nerves, but I know they don't all act in one way.

[FreakyJoeMan]

'Course it's complicated. I am kind of an advocate for personnal responcibility, and I gotsta say, if ya fucked, ya might have a baby. Even with all that protection n' shit, there's always that chance. And if ya didn't use protection, I feel that ya deserve it 'cause you were so fuckin stupid. With that being said, I totally support the morning after pill being sold without a perscription. And, for the pro-lifers, it's not like the women who get abortions don't feel anything for this baby. I saw this thing on CBN(yuck) a while ago it was this 40 year old lady who said she got 3 abortions when she was seventeen, and NOW she regrets it. Jesus Fucking Fuck! Three?! I think that after the first one, ya might have learned to use a condom or some sort of propolactic, but noooo...ya gotta get pregnanat two more times, abort those feti(fetuses?fetussus?) and after 33 year yer startin to regret it? Personnally, I'm releived that those babies weren't born to such a stupid person. But when ya wittle it down, this planet's so overpopulated that chances are, that kid's life will be fucked up in one way or another. What's that thing they do in China? One kid per family? Now, people here might say that that's an infringment on our liberties, but ya gotta do something! People WILL NOT stop fucking. It's reality. And what are we gonna say when we got a third of the world's population like India?

[Ginge]

THREE abortions at the age of seventeen??

See, THAT'S what I don't agree with. Though I am pro-choice, I must say that abortion is NOT birth control. And the girls who use it as such really piss me off to no end. Get your ass on The Pill! Or Depo, or The Patch or SOMETHING. And make your guy wear a condom.

Grr! People need to educate themselves. There are still people who think the pull-out method works, for crap's sake.

Women who go through abortions do feel for the child, yes, but in the case of that 40 year old woman, I don't feel any sympathy toward her at all whatsoever.

[FreakyJoeMan]

I agree. Fuckin educate yerselves.

[HappyHaHaGirl]

Is it worse when a fetus is aborted of when a women dies because she had an illegal abortion with a wire hanger?
It's always terrible when a fetus is aborted, but it's going to happen anyway, whether it's legal or not. What I meant is that, good or bad, abortions need to be carried out safely and as painlessly as possibly for the mother and her baby.

[squawkers7]

I have given birth to 7 beautiful kids. I have also had 3 miscarriages...that
some Dr's like to call spontanius abortions....YUUUGH!!!
For alot of situations I guess if I had to vote pro-life or pro-chioce, then I guess I would vote pro-choice....it's just for me personally I choose to have the baby. Even though after the 7th kid I had my tubes tied, and even that isn't always a guarantee cuz my cousin had it done twice.

[FreakyJoeMan]

Jeeze, sorry. :(

[renee]

It's always terrible when a fetus is aborted, but it's going to happen anyway, whether it's legal or not. What I meant is that, good or bad, abortions need to be carried out safely and as painlessly as possibly for the mother and her baby.The abortion rate may decrease though if it's illegal.

[renee]

I have given birth to 7 beautiful kids. I have also had 3 miscarriages...that
some Dr's like to call spontanius abortions....YUUUGH!!!
For alot of situations I guess if I had to vote pro-life or pro-chioce, then I guess I would vote pro-choice....it's just for me personally I choose to have the baby. Even though after the 7th kid I had my tubes tied, and even that isn't always a guarantee cuz my cousin had it done twice.Sorry to hear that.:(

[HappyHaHaGirl]

The abortion rate may decrease though if it's illeagal.
But it will be the same this as the drug war....I'm sure it would decrease it significantly, but the women that did go through with it would be facing terrible conditions and people who didn't deserve it would be making lots of money illegaly.

[WayfaringStranger]

im with you girly. and not most hippies are pro-choice, just the most vocal ones, and when it comes down to the choice, most women arent happy they made it. theories and political correctness are nice to talk about it, but ive run into enough feminist who will berate you for eating meat(which i dont do) and tell you she'd kill a baby all in the same breath.

(execising my right to choose free-speech)

[TerminalMadness]

I'm on the fence with abortion.

If its a hooker not using a condom, a promiscuous girl who intentionally uses no protection, or a crack fiend sleeping around and getting pregnant, then they don't deserve an abortion.

BUT if a girl was raped, sexually violated, or drugged and raped then give it to them. Why bring a child into a world where a mother doesn't want them?

That's all.

[lovelyweapon]

I'm on the fence with abortion.

If its a hooker not using a condom, a promiscuous girl who intentionally uses no protection, or a crack fiend sleeping around and getting pregnant, then they don't deserve an abortion.

BUT if a girl was raped, sexually violated, or drugged and raped then give it to them. Why bring a child into a world where a mother doesn't want them?

That's all.
Right. Because everyone wants those hookers and crack fiends having babies. They'd make wonderful mothers!

It may be an unpopular one here, but it's my opinion that some people (please note I said some, not all) in the pro-life movement don't necessarily want to stop the "killing of innocent babies", they want to punish women who have sex. Your comment is a perfect example.

[MamaTheLama]

Oh my.

Crack babies now.

I suppose we should put up surveillence cameras in bedrooms to make sure the sex was unintentional or a violation in order to determine if an abortion should be granted.

Wouoldn't it just be MUCH easier to educate people rather than judge them?

I swear, people are punishment crazy. What ever happened to LOVE?

[Maggie Sugar]

I think if a woman got raped and got pregnant they should at least deliver the child and put it up for adotion.How flip. You have NO IDEA what pregnancy is like, do you?

I take it you have A) Never been raped B)Never been sexually assaulted C) Never been pregnant.

Pregnancy can be very dangerous. I have been pregnant 6 times. I have never had an abortion, and I don't think I would have one (unless I was raped, and if possible I would use Plan B to prevent implantation.) You form an attachment to the father when you are pregnant. HOW can you form an attachment to someone who hates so much, they have to humiliate womyn for fun? What about the child? Children often take after their parents, in more than just looks. There is some evidnece that some violent behavior is hereditary. I will NOT be bringing the spawn of a violent evil man into this earth! No one else should be forced to either. I hope any womyn who loved children would know bringing a child like this, who probably has a propensityto commit violence, into the world, would think twice about it.

Pregnancy is dangerous. You are about radically more likely to die during the year of pregnancy than you are if you are not pregnant, or if you have an abortion (YES, early abortion is actually safer than full term pregnancy.) I spent up to 6 months in bed because of pregnancy complications with the four pregnancies I was able to carry. I also had four C sections. I could have bled to death from one of my miscarriages. Womyn DIE from pregnancies deliveries and C sections. I wouldn't wish a C section on my worst enemy, NO ONE should be forced to carry a pregnancy she doesn't want. It isn't just 40 weeks of carrying on with your life and then giving the baby away. It could TAKE your life, it could destroy your health, it could leave you with scars, or even cause you to lose your uterus, making sure you willl have no more children, if things go badly enough with your delivery. PREGNANCY AND CHILDBIRTH ARE DANGEROUS. NO ONE should be forced to go through them unless they want to (and this is from the mother of four!)

Pregnancy stops your life as you know it, and you never get it back, even if you do give the baby away to strangers. When I had my children, I knew that and was ready to give up my freedom and risk my health. A womyn who has been raped should never have to completely change and put her own health and life on the line, even more just because of some womyn hating pig rapist who impregnated her. I can't think of a better use for abortion, than rape and incest. DO YOU want to adopt a child who may have an inborn error towards violence, or whose mother got pregnant from her own father? Think about that.

I wouldn't have an abortion (I have been pregnant in enough "inconvenient" situations to know that) but it should be legal and available for any womy who needs it.

[Dolphin~Rider]

For those of you who are pro-life, how did you come to feel this way? Did you soul search, examine your conscience, look at the medical information and then make up your mind? Well, that's all pro-choice people want-the chance to make up their own minds based on how they view the facts and circumstances surrounding an individual pregnancy. You get to make up your own mind and form your own opinion. Would you deny that right for someone else or just force your will upon them? Don't they deserve an equal chance to decide for themselves or are you and your views/morals so far superior that you would take that choice away from other women and their partners? I think the reason pro-choice is associated with the hippy movement is because being a hippy is about letting others find their own path, do their own thing and not judging others. Pro-choice doesn't mean the same thing as pro-abortion. It just means that I don't get to decide for you whether or not you bear a child and you don't get to decide for me, either. If you think it's a sin or a murder then you shouldn't do it, but don't you dare decide that for me!

[MamaTheLama]

Yeah, what dolphin~rider said :)

[Smudge]

For those of you who are pro-life, how did you come to feel this way? Did you soul search, examine your conscience, look at the medical information and then make up your mind? Well, that's all pro-choice people want-the chance to make up their own minds based on how they view the facts and circumstances surrounding an individual pregnancy. You get to make up your own mind and form your own opinion. Would you deny that right for someone else or just force your will upon them? and that's the problem, the child doesn't live to get the chance to do that, and make up it's mind if it wants to live, - to exercise it's 'human rights.'
So someone has to for it.

I was a pregnancy tester and counsellor in a pregnancy crisis centre....we never wanted to 'punish' the women as someone suggested earlier...it was the opposite...the centre was set up by someone who had had an abortion in her 20's and bitterly regretted it after as she got older and learned more.

Post-abortion trauma is real, and shows up in many problem symptoms, physical and emotional.

[HappyHaHaGirl]

Just because you're pro-choice doesn't mean you're pro-abortion... I don't think I could live with myself if I had an abortion, but I don't think that I would ever make that choice. And I would never condemn a person for doing it...it's up to each individual to make your own choice...not the Chrisitians, not the government, not anyone else but yourself.

[lovelyweapon]

I was a pregnancy tester and counsellor in a pregnancy crisis centre....we never wanted to 'punish' the women as someone suggested earlier...it was the opposite...the centre was set up by someone who had had an abortion in her 20's and bitterly regretted it after as she got older and learned more.

Post-abortion trauma is real, and shows up in many problem symptoms, physical and emotional.
Many, many persons I have spoken to about this issue have maintained the position of "if they have sex, let them deal with the consequences". Now, I don't know about you, but that sure sounds a lot like punishment to me. In my opinion, abortion is a private medical issue between a woman and her doctor - it shouldn't even be up for debate.

Also, many professionals have researched Post-Abortion Syndrome; they can't even come to the conclusion on whether or not it exists. Most women feel only relief after an abortion - and in this day and age there should be no excuse for not "learning more", as there is information on both sides available to a woman so she can make an educated choice.

[Smudge]

The ''relief'' after abortion is often short-lived, and often relationships break up to (the very ones that the abortion was done trying to 'save.')

I re-iterate, there are people out there with no intention of wanting to 'punish' women for thinking about abortion, or having one.
A lot of the counsellors in many of the 100's of pregnancy crisis centres, in the U.K. and the U.S.A. have had abortions themselves.
I was trained, myself, in post-abortion counselling...there is a great need for it.

[lovelyweapon]

The ''relief'' after abortion is often short-lived, and often relationships break up to (the very ones that the abortion was done trying to 'save.')

I re-iterate, there are people out there with no intention of wanting to 'punish' women for thinking about abortion, or having one.
A lot of the counsellors in many of the 100's of pregnancy crisis centres, in the U.K. and the U.S.A. have had abortions themselves.
I was trained, myself, in post-abortion counselling...there is a great need for it.
Oh, I am sure there are plenty of people out there who do not want to punish the woman. But there also many that do. It is a rather misogynistic (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=misogynistic) stance, and I have heard it personally from many people whom I have debated this topic with.

There are also women who require postpartum counseling - does this mean giving birth is a bad thing?

[Smudge]

This is a completely pro-women stance. (If you knew me better you would know how often I have had 'feminist' thrown at me as an accusation)

A pro-man stance, and a

pro-child stance,

as it says...pro-life.

[lovelyweapon]

This is a completely pro-women stance. (If you knew me better you would know how often I have had 'feminist' thrown at me as an accusation)

A pro-man stance, and a

pro-child stance,

as it says...pro-life.
Still does not change the fact that some do not think as you do. They are not pro-woman, or pro-man, or pro-child. To them, it's all about the fact that the woman had sex and must face consequences for it. I never said this was your position.

[TerminalMadness]

Right. Because everyone wants those hookers and crack fiends having babies. They'd make wonderful mothers!

It may be an unpopular one here, but it's my opinion that some people (please note I said some, not all) in the pro-life movement don't necessarily want to stop the "killing of innocent babies", they want to punish women who have sex. Your comment is a perfect example.
Damn, I just read my message. That came out all wrong now that I think of it. Hmm... I'm now confused.

[Maggie Sugar]

Post-abortion trauma is real, and shows up in many problem symptoms, physical and emotional So does having a child that you can't take care of. Whether you keep it or give it up for adoption. Ever hear of "Post adoption depression?" or "Post Partum Depression?" They are very real, also.

How about the depression, and physical and emotional problems of living in poverty, because children one didn't want and couldn't afford were brought into the world? The children suffer in these situations too. As do their mothers.

Unwanted pregnancy is NEVER painless, no matter what the choice is. Let the womyn decide what she wants to do. She will suffer no matter what they choice is. It isn't up to you or anyone else.

[Tamee]

The answer to this problem - and the answer to ALL of our social problems in fact - is to completely change our society so that it values LIFE. Murdering unborn children is insane. Our society is insane. We must BECOME sane if we want to stop murdering children. Unfortunately, it does not appear that this will happen anytime in the near future, as our highest "leaders" continue to refer to butchered children as "collateral damage" and drop depleted uranium, pesticides, and daisy cutters all over the third world, maiming and killing thousands of babies every year. So long as people view THAT as acceptable, abortion will continue, legal or not.

I agree. ~*~*~*

When I was 16 I had an abortion because I freaked out and wanted to be really selfish. I'm always thinking about how if I hadn't, my whole life would be different and I would have a two year old right now. I don't think it's right and I'd never do it again, but I don't know if I think it should be illegal. People have to learn to be strong.

[Tamee]

which poses anothr point, what about these women going to fertility clincs and having 5 or 6 kids!?? and many end up with birth defects or crippled, yet no one sees anything wrong with that, which is just as much tampering with nature as an abortion! Ive mentioned that to several people who claimed to be against abortion, and the answer always is "oh but women want a child of their own its nature" wel doenst that take some of their fire out of the adoption theory to prevent abortion????

I agree with that also. Fertility clinics have never seemed right to me. So much tampering with life, for what? I watched a tv show about to-be parents who wanted to chose the sex and even eye color of their children (that technology really is available now, unbelievably) and it made me sick. It makes me sad.

[sugrmag]

To whomever said that women who were raped should give the baby up for adoption: most people are raped by someone they know. Most women don't report date rape. Do you want your rapist to have a chance to get custody or visitation rights to the baby? If you are raped, don't report, the rapist will NOT go to jail. If you give up a baby,most states require the father to be contacted. Shit, in Florida, women have to put a notice in the paper listing potential fathers before she can give a child up for adoption. A rapist who impregnates a women has potential rights to the baby!!

[cynical_otter]

Maggie..dont forget post-partem Psychosis.

All those women who drowned their kids..like tha lady who drown her 5 kids in the tub...suffered from this severe form of post-partem depression.

Pro-lifers think that being pregnant is always a glowing walk in the park and in the end there is a beautiful cherub that you instantly bond to that you would die for...even kill for.

THIS IS NOT THE CASE!

as for the adoption solution....how many of the pro-lifers on here are gonna adopt all these unwanted babies??? even the crack-addicted black babies that no one EVER wants(tragically).

Laughinwillow???? are you on the list to adopt a few unwanted babies that would have been aborted if the mother didnt get pressured by the pro-life movement??

Renee? you better be on a list and saving your pennies to adopt.

there are millions of unwanted children worldwide.



but you will probably..selfishly bare your own children in the SELFISH pursuit to spread your genetics.

I am a pro-choice married mother who has had an abortion.I was not gonna allow an unwanted pregnancy or child(concieved despite pills and condom combos) cut into the lives or hinder my existing daughters lives.


I would not be able to chase around my kids,take them to the amusement park,ride horses with them...or any of that forced with a compulsory pregnancy or extra mouth to feed.


If my decision was selfish because I thought of my daughters first before some potentional person..then I dare you to get in their faces and tell them that they too are responsible for their possible siblings death(because of their selfish desire to be happy and spoiled)...I dare you.


I marched on Washington April 25th! I marched for my daughters and their right to control their own bodies and wombs.


Pro-lifers call us selfish but they are just as selfish...in their desire to control my body and my values.

[Tamee]

I think if I ever adopted a kid, I wouldn't look at any of them, just tell whoever's in charge that I want the one who's been there the longest. Same goes with animals at the pound. To me, it's only fair.

[Cosmic Butterfly]

To me its not about a woman having CONTROL over her body. Its beyond anything considered as control. It is about a woman realizing the beauty of human life. Willow is 100% right when she said that this society is insane. People these days are so confused, and self centered that they are blind. It is absolute madness when someone kills the most precious thing in life! That baby is you, your future, and the greatest teacher of love.
I dont understand how people can even think the fetus is not alive until it is born. Or that it is too stupid to understand its own life. That little baby is very special and ending its life makes me ache inside.
Yes, rape, incest, and severe abnormalities of the fetus are different situations. But alot of abortions are from people who did not take the proper birth control methods.

Deep down I think alot of people know its wrong, they just CHOOSE to ignore it.

[cynical_otter]

Yes, rape, incest, and severe abnormalities of the fetus are different situations. But alot of abortions are from people who did not take the proper birth control methods.

Deep down I think alot of people know its wrong, they just CHOOSE to ignore it.


This is a fallacy created by the pro-life movement which is also(not surprisingly) led and mostly comprised of white christian men.Brigid and Maggie usually have the actual statistics on hand without googling....but something like 65% of abortions are performed on single white career women whose "proper" birthcontrol failed.Another large chunk of the remaining percentage are married women who's birthcontrol failed.the smallest percentage of women having abortions is the poor and/or underage woman who did not use any birth control at all.

I was part of the percentage...married woman who's birth control failed.I also got pregnant 3 months after my second child(who was a back to back baby with the first...almost irish twins)....my body was tired..i had kidney problems during my pregnancy and my daughter had hydrothronosis inutero.I also suffered from a small case of depression,my hubby finally got hired for our major city EMS unit and had to take a $4 paycut during training for 3 months.I was incapable mentally and physically and financially to cope with another pregnancy and child.We decided TOGETHER that a termination was the best option...and he told me that if we wanted to,a few years down the road we could have another baby or even adopt when we were in a better position.

It was not an easy decision to make...but it was the best for our family.I have little regret.yes I do think about what could have been if I had kept the baby...but when weighed against the present and futures of our existing children....that woulda/shoulda/coulda doesnt even register on the priority scale.

It's hard for those not in this situation faced with this decision.It's easy to bash women who have abortions and easy to speak out against them when you have no idea what it's like to face the choice right in the eye.

pro-lifers(most following the hate-speech of Neal Horsley or Jerry Falwell) always assume that women who have abortions are bratty whiny selfish young women who simply dont want to surrender their figures to pregnancy and then surrender their social lives to a baby.

it simply isnt the reality or truth.


there is also the misconception that pro-choicers deny that abortion isnt ending a life.IT IS ENDING A LIFE.but it isnt an equal life compared to a fully formed and existing person with a conscience.the embryo or fetus is not worth equal to that of the woman carrying it.

and ALL pro-choicers agree that unless their is a serious condition or emergency....abortions in the 3rd trimester are unethical because those babies are potentially viable WITHOUT ADVANCED MEDICAL INTERVENTION and could survive outside the womb WITHOUT ADVANCED MEDICAL INTERVENTION.

I have never met one pro-choice supporter that agrees with late-term abortions unless the mother is suffering or the fetus is suffering/and or has no chance of a quality life.


I would also like to point out the vast majority of hard-core pro-lifers do not even agree with abortion in cases of rape and incest or if the woman's life is on the line.

They actually believe that the embryo/fetus is not only equal but worth more then the woman therefore,she must risk her life in order to make sure that this baby is born and given a chance.


Ironically,these same people also dont support,vote against,and make laws preventing help,support,and medical care needed to sustain pregnant women and all these unplanned and unwanted babies.

they want to end welfare,medicaid,WIC,free health insurance for pregnant women and children,they make laws making it harder for people to adopt these children..and then also want to end funding for foster parents and children's homes and programs.

pro-lifers have no solution on how to care and handle all these kids, they dont want to foot medical bills or provide therapy services for women who were forced to continue pregnancy and then forced to give birth and then deal with the anxiety and sadness of turning the baby over to the state.


they think that just tossing these kids into the system is the solution. that the women dont really exist..that they are merely factories aiding their cause for control and power over the individual.

In their world...birth control doesnt fail and pregnancy is something every woman can and should handle.In their world,even married people should abstain from sex if they dont want to risk pregnancy.


I dont know what world most pro-lifers live in...but it sure as hell isnt the same one I live in.

I live in a world full of war,poverty,hate,crime,carnage,environmental destruction,and a booming population of over 6 billion people.

there are billions of starving people(including millions and millions of starving kids). In 20 years....our earth will begin to start being unable to sustain our human population.in 50 years oil will be gone.in 100 years...our fresh water will be on it's last legs.


This is our future.


I would also like to remind you that before abortion was made legal....55 million women died between the years of 1950-1974(? is 74 or 72?) more women died from illegal or self-induced abortions then soldiers killed in the vietnam war.

I refuse to go back to that era and I refuse to allow my daughters to be forced into that era.

so tell me pro-lifers..what is your realistic and logical solution??

[lovelyweapon]

so tell me pro-lifers..what is your realistic and logical solution??
*listens to the crickets churping*

[Tamee]

This is a fallacy created by the pro-life movement which is also(not surprisingly) led and mostly comprised of white christian men.Brigid and Maggie usually have the actual statistics on hand without googling....but something like 65% of abortions are performed on single white career women whose "proper" birthcontrol failed.Another large chunk of the remaining percentage are married women who's birthcontrol failed.the smallest percentage of women having abortions is the poor and/or underage woman who did not use any birth control at all.

I was part of the percentage...married woman who's birth control failed.I also got pregnant 3 months after my second child(who was a back to back baby with the first...almost irish twins)....my body was tired..i had kidney problems during my pregnancy and my daughter had hydrothronosis inutero.I also suffered from a small case of depression,my hubby finally got hired for our major city EMS unit and had to take a $4 paycut during training for 3 months.I was incapable mentally and physically and financially to cope with another pregnancy and child.We decided TOGETHER that a termination was the best option...and he told me that if we wanted to,a few years down the road we could have another baby or even adopt when we were in a better position.

It was not an easy decision to make...but it was the best for our family.I have little regret.yes I do think about what could have been if I had kept the baby...but when weighed against the present and futures of our existing children....that woulda/shoulda/coulda doesnt even register on the priority scale.

It's hard for those not in this situation faced with this decision.It's easy to bash women who have abortions and easy to speak out against them when you have no idea what it's like to face the choice right in the eye.

pro-lifers(most following the hate-speech of Neal Horsley or Jerry Falwell) always assume that women who have abortions are bratty whiny selfish young women who simply dont want to surrender their figures to pregnancy and then surrender their social lives to a baby.

it simply isnt the reality or truth.


there is also the misconception that pro-choicers deny that abortion isnt ending a life.IT IS ENDING A LIFE.but it isnt an equal life compared to a fully formed and existing person with a conscience.the embryo or fetus is not worth equal to that of the woman carrying it.

and ALL pro-choicers agree that unless their is a serious condition or emergency....abortions in the 3rd trimester are unethical because those babies are potentially viable WITHOUT ADVANCED MEDICAL INTERVENTION and could survive outside the womb WITHOUT ADVANCED MEDICAL INTERVENTION.

I have never met one pro-choice supporter that agrees with late-term abortions unless the mother is suffering or the fetus is suffering/and or has no chance of a quality life.


I would also like to point out the vast majority of hard-core pro-lifers do not even agree with abortion in cases of rape and incest or if the woman's life is on the line.

They actually believe that the embryo/fetus is not only equal but worth more then the woman therefore,she must risk her life in order to make sure that this baby is born and given a chance.


Ironically,these same people also dont support,vote against,and make laws preventing help,support,and medical care needed to sustain pregnant women and all these unplanned and unwanted babies.

they want to end welfare,medicaid,WIC,free health insurance for pregnant women and children,they make laws making it harder for people to adopt these children..and then also want to end funding for foster parents and children's homes and programs.

pro-lifers have no solution on how to care and handle all these kids, they dont want to foot medical bills or provide therapy services for women who were forced to continue pregnancy and then forced to give birth and then deal with the anxiety and sadness of turning the baby over to the state.


they think that just tossing these kids into the system is the solution. that the women dont really exist..that they are merely factories aiding their cause for control and power over the individual.

In their world...birth control doesnt fail and pregnancy is something every woman can and should handle.In their world,even married people should abstain from sex if they dont want to risk pregnancy.


I dont know what world most pro-lifers live in...but it sure as hell isnt the same one I live in.

I live in a world full of war,poverty,hate,crime,carnage,environmental destruction,and a booming population of over 6 billion people.

there are billions of starving people(including millions and millions of starving kids). In 20 years....our earth will begin to start being unable to sustain our human population.in 50 years oil will be gone.in 100 years...our fresh water will be on it's last legs.


This is our future.


I would also like to remind you that before abortion was made legal....55 million women died between the years of 1950-1974(? is 74 or 72?) more women died from illegal or self-induced abortions then soldiers killed in the vietnam war.

I refuse to go back to that era and I refuse to allow my daughters to be forced into that era.

so tell me pro-lifers..what is your realistic and logical solution??

open your mind. you are too set in your views on why you think people chose to belive the way they do. That's something you couldn't possibly know. Even if everyone you talked to told you they feel one way for one reason, and everyone you talked to had the same reason, that is still a very small percentage of EVERYONE and it's unfair to base your opinion on EVERYONE who felt that way, just from that. The only way you could have some real credit with what you are saying is if you asked EVERYONE how they felt and why they felt that way, and even then, if you tried your whole life to talk to every single person on this earth, you still couldn't ask all of them, so your conclusion would still be screwed.

[cynical_otter]

I will "Open my mind" when I see a logical solution from the pro-lifers.:cool:

[LaughinWillow]

First of all, to clarify to otter, who as USUAL is taking comments out of context, I am NOT a "prolifer." I do not believe the solution to this problem is making abortion illegal.

Also, for the record, I am one of the multitude of women who DID get pregnant after an abusive boyfriend raped me. I now have a 10 year old daughter from that incident, and love her very much. When I found out I was pregnant, I was simply not *morally* capable of killing her - I believed - and still believe - that the creator of the universe creates life, and to needlessly destroy life is a crime against nature. I do not expect anyone else to believe what I believe, but I do believe wholeheartedly that abortion is MURDER of a human being, and that NO ONE has the "right" to murder anyone, ever, no matter the circumstance. No "pro-choice" individual has EVER been able to present an argument to me that proves that killing an UNBORN child is not *really* killing a child, so I continue to believe that it is, indeed, murder. As such, it is not only the "woman's business," but is EVERYONE'S business - IMO.

I do not regret not killing my daughter, though I certainly regret experiencing that kind of violence in my life, and even though I have had to work full time, sometimes at two jobs, while in college. It's also probably made me a bit overprotective of her. But I don't blame her for what happened to me, and believe that if I had killed her, I would be completely insane from guilt.

The "solution" to this problem, as I said, is NOT a legal one. The solution is a complete shift in our society - a complete shift away from a materialistic, death-centered, woman-hostile, child-hostile value system to one that values ALL life. Abortion is a SYMPTOM of a larger problem. Abortion is a symptom of the same affliction that causes homelessness, child abuse, violence against women, rape fantasy videos, destruction of rainforests, extinction of whales, torture of animals in factory farms, heroin addiction, and a million other miseries in our world. The DISEASE is a complete disregard for the value of life. And the cure is the destruction of civilization as we know it.

With that said, I honestly don't know anymore how to achieve a better society. I mean, I KNOW how, but can't achieve it on my own. I can't convince middle and upper-class americans to give up their cars or to live cooperatively. I can't convince soldiers to lay down their guns and stop shooting children. I can't create a mass movement toward respect of life on my own - and I don't know that there are currently enough of us with that consciousness to do it even in the numbers we have.

I suppose I'm not feeling very optimistic these days...

[Tamee]

First of all, to clarify to otter, who as USUAL is taking comments out of context, I am NOT a "prolifer." I do not believe the solution to this problem is making abortion illegal.

Also, for the record, I am one of the multitude of women who DID get pregnant after an abusive boyfriend raped me. I now have a 10 year old daughter from that incident, and love her very much. When I found out I was pregnant, I was simply not *morally* capable of killing her - I believed - and still believe - that the creator of the universe creates life, and to needlessly destroy life is a crime against nature. I do not expect anyone else to believe what I believe, but I do believe wholeheartedly that abortion is MURDER of a human being, and that NO ONE has the "right" to murder anyone, ever, no matter the circumstance. No "pro-choice" individual has EVER been able to present an argument to me that proves that killing an UNBORN child is not *really* killing a child, so I continue to believe that it is, indeed, murder. As such, it is not only the "woman's business," but is EVERYONE'S business - IMO.

I do not regret not killing my daughter, though I certainly regret experiencing that kind of violence in my life, and even though I have had to work full time, sometimes at two jobs, while in college. It's also probably made me a bit overprotective of her. But I don't blame her for what happened to me, and believe that if I had killed her, I would be completely insane from guilt.

The "solution" to this problem, as I said, is NOT a legal one. The solution is a complete shift in our society - a complete shift away from a materialistic, death-centered, woman-hostile, child-hostile value system to one that values ALL life. Abortion is a SYMPTOM of a larger problem. Abortion is a symptom of the same affliction that causes homelessness, child abuse, violence against women, rape fantasy videos, destruction of rainforests, extinction of whales, torture of animals in factory farms, heroin addiction, and a million other miseries in our world. The DISEASE is a complete disregard for the value of life. And the cure is the destruction of civilization as we know it.

With that said, I honestly don't know anymore how to achieve a better society. I mean, I KNOW how, but can't achieve it on my own. I can't convince middle and upper-class americans to give up their cars or to live cooperatively. I can't convince soldiers to lay down their guns and stop shooting children. I can't create a mass movement toward respect of life on my own - and I don't know that there are currently enough of us with that consciousness to do it even in the numbers we have.

I suppose I'm not feeling very optimistic these days...

I completely agree with you. You and I seem to think very much alike about this.

I can't convince middle and upper-class americans to give up their cars or to live cooperatively

You've convinced me. :)

[MichaelByrd1967]

Great Protest in DC on every January 22nd. I have gone twice already with a school group. I'm going next year too. That'll be my senior year, and I don't know if any of the colleges I'm going to apply to will have a pro-life group that goes to DC. If not, I'm just gonna go myself, but if so, it would be great to hangout and protest with some like-minded people.

[renee]

First of all, to clarify to otter, who as USUAL is taking comments out of context, I am NOT a "prolifer." I do not believe the solution to this problem is making abortion illegal.

Also, for the record, I am one of the multitude of women who DID get pregnant after an abusive boyfriend raped me. I now have a 10 year old daughter from that incident, and love her very much. When I found out I was pregnant, I was simply not *morally* capable of killing her - I believed - and still believe - that the creator of the universe creates life, and to needlessly destroy life is a crime against nature. I do not expect anyone else to believe what I believe, but I do believe wholeheartedly that abortion is MURDER of a human being, and that NO ONE has the "right" to murder anyone, ever, no matter the circumstance. No "pro-choice" individual has EVER been able to present an argument to me that proves that killing an UNBORN child is not *really* killing a child, so I continue to believe that it is, indeed, murder. As such, it is not only the "woman's business," but is EVERYONE'S business - IMO.

I do not regret not killing my daughter, though I certainly regret experiencing that kind of violence in my life, and even though I have had to work full time, sometimes at two jobs, while in college. It's also probably made me a bit overprotective of her. But I don't blame her for what happened to me, and believe that if I had killed her, I would be completely insane from guilt.

The "solution" to this problem, as I said, is NOT a legal one. The solution is a complete shift in our society - a complete shift away from a materialistic, death-centered, woman-hostile, child-hostile value system to one that values ALL life. Abortion is a SYMPTOM of a larger problem. Abortion is a symptom of the same affliction that causes homelessness, child abuse, violence against women, rape fantasy videos, destruction of rainforests, extinction of whales, torture of animals in factory farms, heroin addiction, and a million other miseries in our world. The DISEASE is a complete disregard for the value of life. And the cure is the destruction of civilization as we know it.

With that said, I honestly don't know anymore how to achieve a better society. I mean, I KNOW how, but can't achieve it on my own. I can't convince middle and upper-class americans to give up their cars or to live cooperatively. I can't convince soldiers to lay down their guns and stop shooting children. I can't create a mass movement toward respect of life on my own - and I don't know that there are currently enough of us with that consciousness to do it even in the numbers we have.

I suppose I'm not feeling very optimistic these days...Awww, thanks lovely.:)

[akhc]

No "pro-choice" individual has EVER been able to present an argument to me that proves that killing an UNBORN child is not *really* killing a child, so I continue to believe that it is, indeed, murder. As such, it is not only the "woman's business," but is EVERYONE'S business - IMO.
Primary pulmonary hypertension. Mortality rate for lady with this condition who attempts pregnancy and delivery is 50%. What would u do?

Lady with stage 2 ovarian carcinoma about to undergo treatment for it and finds out she is 6 weeks pregnant. Risk that cancer will become untreatable if u wait another 18 weeks if u want to get the fetus where it can live when born (still has a 50-80% mortality rate and a 90% chance of long term mental/physical disability when baby born at 24 weeks).

There are a ton of medical conditions out there that would make pregnancy questionable and could endanger the mom's life. Are u seriously suggesting that all these ladies have to take these high risks?

[Jozak]

No, she is not saying that. I don't know what Willow's position is on danger of the mother, but she is talking about people who have abortions becasue they do not feel like having another child.

[meishka]

babies are useless. kill the little freeloaders. no not really. but a woman has a decision to make when she conciders that path. we should never scrutinize or belttile, judge those who have a abortions. doctors should be safe, regardless of their practice or others beliefs.methods should be changed to reduce damage to the uterus. cut it up flush it down yay. that's my two cents

[Tamee]

Primary pulmonary hypertension. Mortality rate for lady with this condition who attempts pregnancy and delivery is 50%. What would u do?

Lady with stage 2 ovarian carcinoma about to undergo treatment for it and finds out she is 6 weeks pregnant. Risk that cancer will become untreatable if u wait another 18 weeks if u want to get the fetus where it can live when born (still has a 50-80% mortality rate and a 90% chance of long term mental/physical disability when baby born at 24 weeks).

There are a ton of medical conditions out there that would make pregnancy questionable and could endanger the mom's life. Are u seriously suggesting that all these ladies have to take these high risks?

I don't see why not. Not saying that everyone should be forced to, but I don't see a big problem.

[akhc]

my point exactly.. all this debate about pro-life or choice should consider the fact that a fetus cannot survive by itself till 24 weeks. after 24 weeks it's a much harder issue.

as such I really think the risks that are being taken by the mother are hers to decide. if she wishes to terminate a pregnancy than surely it's her body and her choice in the case of early abortions. to be honest I don't see it as killing.. not until after 24 weeks.

[Sera Michele]

I agree with you, akhc

[lunar forest]

There is just nothing peacful or loving about killing anyone, anytime. Regardless of other options, or whether or not the child could live outside of the womb.

(Though, if my baby was taken from me and not cared for she would not live, just like a fetus being riped from it's mother's safe womb - or cut up into little peice and then removed, or what have you - nature has placed that child in your womb and then into your arms for protection, because that is the only place that they will be safe and able to grow, so OF COURSE they won't live if you take them from that!!! Duh!)

Killing and/or stoping life from completely forming just doesn't make sence from a peace loving hippie point of view. It's senseless killing.

Spread the love around. Be peaceful and non-violent.