Islam & science

[7x7]

this thread about Islam and science.

but also can be used for people claiming that quran was written by prophet mohammed "the illiterate" this thread can prove that he did not.


creation of human at womb

The Noble Quran on Human Embryonic Development:
In the Holy Quran, God speaks about the stages of man’s embryonic development:

We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)... [1] (Quran, 23:12-14)

Literally, the Arabic word alaqah has three meanings: (1) leech, (2) suspended thing, and (3) blood clot.
In comparing a leech to an embryo in the alaqah stage, we find similarity between the two as we can see in figure 1. Also, the embryo at this stage obtains nourishment from the blood of the mother, similar to the leech, which feeds on the blood of others. [3]

http://www.answering-christianity.com/ch1-1-a-img1.jpg


Figure 1: Drawings illustrating the similarities in appearance between a leech and a human embryo at the alaqah stage. (Leech drawing from Human Development as Described in the Quran and Sunnah, Moore and others, p. 37, modified from Integrated Principles of Zoology, Hickman and others. Embryo drawing from The Developing Human, Moore and Persaud, 5th ed., p. 73.)

The second meaning of the word alaqah is “suspended thing.” This is what we can see in figures 2 and 3, the suspension of the embryo, during the alaqah stage, in the womb of the mother.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/ch1-1-a-img2-big.jpg

Figure 2: We can see in this diagram the suspension of an embryo during the alaqah stage in the womb (uterus) of the mother. (The Developing Human, Moore and Persaud, 5th ed., p. 66.)

http://www.answering-christianity.com/ch1-1-a-img3.jpg

Figure 3: In this photomicrograph, we can see the suspension of an embryo (marked B) during the alaqah stage (about 15 days old) in the womb of the mother. The actual size of the embryo is about 0.6 mm. (The Developing Human, Moore, 3rd ed., p. 66, from Histology, Leeson and Leeson.)
The third meaning of the word alaqah is “blood clot.” We find that the external appearance of the embryo and its sacs during the alaqah stage is similar to that of a blood clot. This is due to the presence of relatively large amounts of blood present in the embryo during this stage (see figure 4). Also during this stage, the blood in the embryo does not circulate until the end of the third week. Thus, the embryo at this stage is like a clot of blood.


http://www.answering-christianity.com/ch1-1-a-img4-big.jpg

Figure 4: Diagram of the primitive cardiovascular system in an embryo during the alaqah stage. The external appearance of the embryo and its sacs is similar to that of a blood clot, due to the presence of relatively large amounts of blood present in the embryo. (The Developing Human, Moore, 5th ed., p. 65.)

So the three meanings of the word alaqah correspond accurately to the descriptions of the embryo at the alaqah stage.
The next stage mentioned in the verse is the mudghah stage. The Arabic word mudghah means “chewed substance.” If one were to take a piece of gum and chew it in his or her mouth and then compare it with an embryo at the mudghah stage, we would conclude that the embryo at the mudghah stage acquires the appearance of a chewed substance. This is because of the somites at the back of the embryo that “somewhat resemble teethmarks in a chewed substance.” (see figures 5 and 6).

http://www.answering-christianity.com/ch1-1-a-img5.jpg

Figure 5: Photograph of an embryo at the mudghah stage (28 days old). The embryo at this stage acquires the appearance of a chewed substance, because the somites at the back of the embryo somewhat resemble teeth marks in a chewed substance. The actual size of the embryo is 4 mm. (The Developing Human, Moore and Persaud, 5th ed., p. 82, from Professor Hideo Nishimura, Kyoto University, Kyoto, Japan.)



http://www.answering-christianity.com/ch1-1-a-img6-big.jpg

Figure 6: When comparing the appearance of an embryo at the mudghah stage with a piece of gum that has been chewed, we find similarity between the two.
A) Drawing of an embryo at the mudghah stage. We can see here the somites at the back of the embryo that look like teeth marks. (The Developing Human, Moore and Persaud, 5th ed., p. 79.)
B) Photograph of a piece of gum that has been chewed

How could Muhammad have possibly known all this 1400 years ago, when scientists have only recently discovered this using advanced equipment and powerful microscopes which did not exist at that time? Hamm and Leeuwenhoek were the first scientists to observe human sperm cells (spermatozoa) using an improved microscope in 1677 (more than 1000 years after Muhammad They mistakenly thought that the sperm cell contained a miniature preformed human being that grew when it was deposited in the female genital tract.

Professor Emeritus Keith L. Moore is one of the world’s most prominent scientists in the fields of anatomy and embryology and is the author of the book entitled The Developing Human, which has been translated into eight languages. This book is a scientific reference work and was chosen by a special committee in the United States as the best book authored by one person. Dr. Keith Moore is Professor Emeritus of Anatomy and Cell Biology at the University of Toronto, Toronto, Canada. There, he was Associate Dean of Basic Sciences at the Faculty of Medicine and for 8 years was the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy. In 1984, he received the most distinguished award presented in the field of anatomy in Canada, the J.C.B. Grant Award from the Canadian Association of Anatomists. He has directed many international associations, such as the Canadian and American Association of Anatomists and the Council of the Union of Biological Sciences.

In 1981, during the Seventh Medical Conference in Dammam, Saudi Arabia, Professor Moore said: “It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Quran about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, because almost all of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God.”

Consequently, Professor Moore was asked the following question: “Does this mean that you believe that the Quran is the word of God?” He replied: “I find no difficulty in accepting this.”

During one conference, Professor Moore stated: “....Because the staging of human embryos is complex, owing to the continuous process of change during development, it is proposed that a new system of classification could be developed using the terms mentioned in the Quran and Sunnah (what Muhammad said, did, or approved of). The proposed system is simple, comprehensive, and conforms with present embryological knowledge. The intensive studies of the Quran and hadeeth (reliably transmitted reports by the Prophet Muhammad’s companions of what he said, did, or approved of) in the last four years have revealed a system for classifying human embryos that is amazing since it was recorded in the seventh century A.D. Although Aristotle, the founder of the science of embryology, realized that chick embryos developed in stages from his studies of hen’s eggs in the fourth century B.C., he did not give any details about these stages. As far as it is known from the history of embryology, little was known about the staging and classification of human embryos until the twentieth century. For this reason, the descriptions of the human embryo in the Quran cannot be based on scientific knowledge in the seventh century. The only reasonable conclusion is: these descriptions were revealed to Muhammad from God. He could not have known such details because he was an illiterate man with absolutely no scientific training.”

There are video links for these comments if you don't believe me.

[7x7]

Q: The lowest district\land in the world?
A: answer can be found here (the dead sea) http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/science/11/10/dead.sea/



2- dead sea

The lowest district in the world has been mentioned in the Quran before fourteen century.

The Quranic verse deals with the battle which took place between the Romans & the Persians at the early dawn of Islam. The Romans represent people of the holy book “The Bible” whereas the Persians were idol & fire worshipers. However, in that battle the Persians defeated the Romans. The Muslims did not like it. They did not like idol & fire worshipers to defeat the followers of a holy book. Muslims felt sad. Therefore Allah condoled Muslims by informing them a future event which will take place. In that event, Quran informed, the Roman will defeat the Persians.

Quran said “(((((The Roman Empire has been defeated – In the lowest land (even) after (This) defeat of theirs, will soon be victorious – Within a few years.)))))

Ard the arabic word for land/district/earth

Loswet means in pure arabic Aqsaa.

[7x7]

more to come...many more...

[7x7]

3- creation of universe as proven by western


3- creation of universe

The science of modern cosmology, observational and theoretical, clearly indicates that, at one point in time, the whole universe was nothing but a cloud of ‘smoke’ (i.e. an opaque highly dense and hot gaseous composition). This is one of the undisputed principles of standard modern cosmology. Scientists now can observe new stars forming out of the remnants of that ‘smoke’

Nebula- a cloud of dust and gas in space, from which new stars are created
The first origin for material is the universe's creation itself: Soon after its birth, atoms were created in the universe, and it is from these that the first dust and gas clouds formed. This means that the gas and dust that make up this type of nebula were not created in a star, but are the original matter from the beginnings of the universe.
Read more about nebula here:
http://home.cwru.edu/~sjr16/stars_birth.html

Interstellar cloud is the generic name given to accumulations of gas and dust in our galaxy. Depending on the density, size and temperature of a given cloud, the hydrogen in it can be neutral (HI clouds), ionized, (HII regions), or molecular (molecular clouds). When insufficiently dense to be called a cloud, it may be referred to as interstellar dust or simply dust. Dust in an astronomical context typically has a different composition from the household meaning of dust.

http://en.wikipedia.org/upload/thumb/1/1f/300px-Interstellar.cloud.arp.750pix.jpg
Over 200 newly formed stars are scattered within a cavern-like, gaseous, interstellar cloud (NGC 604). The stars irradiate the gas with energetic ultraviolet light stripping electrons from atoms and exciting them - producing a characteristic nebular glow.
Source : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstellar_cloud
In cosmogony, the solar nebula is a gaseous cloud (or accretion disc), from which, solar systems are formed. This nebular hypothesis was first proposed, in 1755, by Kant; who argued that nebulae slowly rotate, gradually condensing (due to gravity) and flattening; eventually forming stars and planets. A similar model was proposed, in 1796, by Laplace.


God has said in the Quran:
Then He turned to the heaven when it was smoke... (Quran, 41:11)
Because the earth and the heavens above (the sun, the moon, stars, planets, galaxies, etc.) have been formed from this same ‘smoke,’ we conclude that the earth and the heavens were one connected entity. Then out of this homogeneous ‘smoke,’ they formed and separated from each other. God has said in the Quran:

Have not those who disbelieved known that the heavens and the earth were one connected entity, then We separated them?... (Quran, 21:30)

[BlackBillBlake]

Hang on....... I am not a Muslim, and I have no belief in the Quran, but to suggest that western science has solved the riddle of how the universe was created is equally wrong. The fact is that there is no real agreement between theoretical physicists, and a number of competing theories exist.

None of the World's scriptures contain scientific truth because they were written in a pre-scientific age. But science has not proved that God does not exist, even if it makes clear that many scriptural statements cannot be taken as literal truth or accepted un-critically at face value.
A better line of criticism seems to me that among the world's scriptures, the quaran is on a very low level, is simplistic, limited, and gives a very partial and even distorted picture of the Divine nature.

[Brocktoon]

There is a problem with the first post.


It presumes that this knowledge could only be known by some Supernatural information.

Wrong.

Romans and Persians had in-depth knowledge of the human body and never-ending opportunities to examine corpses.

In this case, Mohammed would certainly have access to either medical documentation or the ability to stand in while cadavers were being examined.

All you have is an amateur description of what could be seen in diagrams or post-mortems.

He thinks its a 'Leech' because that is what an amateur can compare it to.
He's then completely stumped at a picture of an embryo and resorts to the very poor description or 'Something someone had chewed".

Yikes.

As usual the Muslim apologist 'Asks' a leading question and assumes the average listener will not know any different.

"How could he know this 1400 years before modern science??'

THERE is the false assumption.

Medicine was extremely advanced in Roman times, every history student knows that.
The Persians were especially advanced at that particular era.

Im certain a decent Persian doctor of the day would have cringed with embarrassment for the writer describing embryo's as 'Some chewed thing'

[jujunisa]

"None of the World's scriptures contain scientific truth because they were written in a pre-scientific age. But science has not proved that God does not exist, even if it makes clear that many scriptural statements cannot be taken as literal truth or accepted un-critically at face value.
A better line of criticism seems to me that among the world's scriptures, the quaran is on a very low level, is simplistic, limited, and gives a very partial and even distorted picture of the Divine nature." posted by blackbill





"In this case, Mohammed would certainly have access to either medical documentation or the ability to stand in while cadavers were being examined." posted by brocktoon.

blackbill, don ever jump into conclusion w/o even trying to find out the truth. my friend here has already shown you the evidences that quran contain very precise scientific truths and with the evidences infront of you, you are talking nonsense that there is no scientific truth. i find it very amusing. the scientific scriptures in this very quran written in prescientific age has been proven to be true in this very day. i don need a ordinary person like you who i don think have actually read the quran or understand it to tell us that the scripture contains no truth,when it has been verified by NON_MUSLIM scientists and experts that the quran indeed the source of truth and the basis for advancements in science. All thanks to quran. if u deny the truth in the quran, it is similar to denying the scientifc theories that are present today.

you are saying the opposites of the truth present to you..... i can only laugh at you when you say that quran is very limited,and gives a very partial and even distorted picture of the Divine nature.
no man at that time when quran was revealed could have any knowledge of these scientific theories and the only way these scientific theories that have been proved right today could have existed at that time is through divine nature. you don have anything to back up what you say. i don even know whether you have even taken a look at the quran and understood it. yet, you can come up with such baseless conclusion. first go and read all the scriptures of all the religions before you make any remarks.

as for you brocktoon, the same thing applies to you. you said in your post that muhammad would have access to the information. there were not much advancements in science at that time, how would muhd have acess to them? even if there were such advancements, why is that only muhd. produced such theories? furthermore, muhd is an illiterate. of all other literate ppl, how come muhd. can posess such great knowledge of science? this can only be true when it comes from divine nature and not from anywhere else where the knowledge of such advanced science theories did not exist at that time. so your statement already shows that you do not know Muhd well enough to talk abt him and you have no strong valid arguments to support what you have written.

both of you look at what non muslim scientists, experts, and professionals have to say abt prophet muhd s.a.w., the quran, science found in the scripture and divine nature. next time don just post whatever you think is right w/o any strong arguments to support your view. no one will ever buy them.

[jujunisa]

1) Dr. T. V. N. Persaud is Professor of Anatomy, Professor of Pediatrics and Child Health, and Professor of Obstetrics, Gynecology, and Reproductive Sciences at the University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. There, he was the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy for 16 years. He is well-known in his field. He is the author or editor of 22 textbooks and has published over 181 scientific papers. In 1991, he received the most distinguished award presented in the field of anatomy in Canada, the J.C.B. Grant Award from the Canadian Association of Anatomists. When he was asked about the scientific miracles in the Quran which he has researched, he stated the following:

“The way it was explained to me is that Muhammad was a very ordinary man. He could not read, didn’t know [how] to write. In fact, he was an illiterate. And we’re talking about twelve [actually about fourteen] hundred years ago. You have someone illiterate making profound pronouncements and statements and that are amazingly accurate about scientific nature. And I personally can’t see how this could be a mere chance. There are too many accuracies and, like Dr. Moore, I have no difficulty in my mind that this is a divine inspiration or revelation which led him to these statements.” (View the RealPlayer video of this comment (http://www.islam-guide.com/video/persaud-1.ram))

Professor Persaud has included some Quranic verses and sayings of the Prophet Muhammad in some of his books. He has also presented these verses and sayings of the Prophet Muhammad at several conferences.


2) Dr. Joe Leigh Simpson is the Chairman of the Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Professor of Obstetrics and Gynecology, and Professor of Molecular and Human Genetics at the Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Texas, USA. Formerly, he was Professor of Ob-Gyn and the Chairman of the Department of Ob-Gyn at the University of Tennessee, Memphis, Tennessee, USA. He was also the President of the American Fertility Society. He has received many awards, including the Association of Professors of Obstetrics and Gynecology Public Recognition Award in 1992. Professor Simpson studied the following two sayings of the Prophet Muhammad :

{In every one of you, all components of your creation are collected together in your mother’s womb by forty days...}2 (http://www.islam-guide.com/#footnote2)

{If forty-two nights have passed over the embryo, God sends an angel to it, who shapes it and creates its hearing, vision, skin, flesh, and bones....}3 (http://www.islam-guide.com/#footnote3)

He studied these two sayings of the Prophet Muhammad extensively, noting that the first forty days constitute a clearly distinguishable stage of embryo-genesis. He was particularly impressed by the absolute precision and accuracy of those sayings of the Prophet Muhammad . Then, during one conference, he gave the following opinion:

“So that the two hadeeths (the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad ) that have been noted provide us with a specific time table for the main embryological development before forty days. Again, the point has been made, I think, repeatedly by other speakers this morning: these hadeeths could not have been obtained on the basis of the scientific knowledge that was available [at] the time of their writing . . . . It follows, I think, that not only there is no conflict between genetics and religion but, in fact, religion can guide science by adding revelation to some of the traditional scientific approaches, that there exist statements in the Quran shown centuries later to be valid, which support knowledge in the Quran having been derived from God.” (View the RealPlayer video of this comment (http://www.islam-guide.com/video/simpson-1.ram))


3) Dr. E. Marshall Johnson is Professor Emeritus of Anatomy and Developmental Biology at Thomas Jefferson University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA. There, for 22 years he was Professor of Anatomy, the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy, and the Director of the Daniel Baugh Institute. He was also the President of the Teratology Society. He has authored more than 200 publications. In 1981, during the Seventh Medical Conference in Dammam, Saudi Arabia, Professor Johnson said in the presentation of his research paper:

“Summary: The Quran describes not only the development of external form, but emphasizes also the internal stages, the stages inside the embryo, of its creation and development, emphasizing major events recognized by contemporary science.” (View the RealPlayer video of this comment (http://www.islam-guide.com/video/johnson-1.ram))

Also he said: “As a scientist, I can only deal with things which I can specifically see. I can understand embryology and developmental biology. I can understand the words that are translated to me from the Quran. As I gave the example before, if I were to transpose myself into that era, knowing what I knew today and describing things, I could not describe the things which were described. I see no evidence for the fact to refute the concept that this individual, Muhammad, had to be developing this information from some place. So I see nothing here in conflict with the concept that divine intervention was involved in what he was able to write.”4 (http://www.islam-guide.com/#footnote4) (View the RealPlayer video of this comment (http://www.islam-guide.com/video/johnson-2.ram))


4) Dr. William W. Hay is a well-known marine scientist. He is Professor of Geological Sciences at the University of Colorado, Boulder, Colorado, USA. He was formerly the Dean of the Rosenstiel School of Marine and Atmospheric Science at the University of Miami, Miami, Florida, USA. After a discussion with Professor Hay about the Quran’s mention of recently discovered facts on seas, he said:

“I find it very interesting that this sort of information is in the ancient scriptures of the Holy Quran, and I have no way of knowing where they would come from, but I think it is extremely interesting that they are there and that this work is going on to discover it, the meaning of some of the passages.” And when he was asked about the source of the Quran, he replied: “Well, I would think it must be the divine being.” (View the RealPlayer video of this comment
(http://www.islam-guide.com/video/hay-1.ram))

[jujunisa]

5) Dr. Gerald C. Goeringer is Course Director and Associate Professor of Medical Embryology at the Department of Cell Biology, School of Medicine, Georgetown University, Washington, DC, USA. During the Eighth Saudi Medical Conference in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, Professor Goeringer stated the following in the presentation of his research paper:

“In a relatively few aayahs (Quranic verses) is contained a rather comprehensive description of human development from the time of commingling of the gametes through organogenesis. No such distinct and complete record of human development, such as classification, terminology, and description, existed previously. In most, if not all, instances, this description antedates by many centuries the recording of the various stages of human embryonic and fetal development recorded in the traditional scientific literature.” (View the RealPlayer video of this comment (http://www.islam-guide.com/video/goeringer-1.ram))



6) Dr. Yoshihide Kozai is Professor Emeritus at Tokyo University, Hongo, Tokyo, Japan, and was the Director of the National Astronomical Observatory, Mitaka, Tokyo, Japan. He said:

“I am very much impressed by finding true astronomical facts in [the] Quran, and for us the modern astronomers have been studying very small pieces of the universe. We’ve concentrated our efforts for understanding of [a] very small part. Because by using telescopes, we can see only very few parts [of] the sky without thinking [about the] whole universe. So, by reading [the] Quran and by answering to the questions, I think I can find my future way for investigation of the universe.” (View the RealPlayer video of this comment (http://www.islam-guide.com/video/kozai-1.ram))


7) Professor Tejatat Tejasen is the Chairman of the Department of Anatomy at Chiang Mai University, Chiang Mai, Thailand. Previously, he was the Dean of the Faculty of Medicine at the same university. During the Eighth Saudi Medical Conference in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, Professor Tejasen stood up and said:

“During the last three years, I became interested in the Quran . . . . From my study and what I have learned from this conference, I believe that everything that has been recorded in the Quran fourteen hundred years ago must be the truth, that can be proved by the scientific means. Since the Prophet Muhammad could neither read nor write, Muhammad must be a messenger who relayed this truth, which was revealed to him as an enlightenment by the one who is eligible [as the] creator. This creator must be God. Therefore, I think this is the time to say La ilaha illa Allah, there is no god to worship except Allah (God), Muhammadur rasoolu Allah, Muhammad is Messenger (Prophet) of Allah (God). Lastly, I must congratulate for the excellent and highly successful arrangement for this conference . . . . I have gained not only from the scientific point of view and religious point of view but also the great chance of meeting many well-known scientists and making many new friends among the participants. The most precious thing of all that I have gained by coming to this place is La ilaha illa Allah, Muhammadur rasoolu Allah, and to have become a Muslim.” (View the RealPlayer video of this comment (http://www.islam-guide.com/video/tejasen-1.ram))



After all these examples we have seen about the scientific miracles in the Holy Quran and all these scientists’ comments on this, let us ask ourselves these questions:

n Could it be a coincidence that all this recently discovered scientific information from different fields was mentioned in the Quran, which was revealed fourteen centuries ago?

n Could this Quran have been authored by Muhammad or by any other human being?

The only possible answer is that this Quran must be the literal word of God, revealed by Him.

[jujunisa]

All you have is an amateur description of what could be seen in diagrams or post-mortems.

He thinks its a 'Leech' because that is what an amateur can compare it to.
He's then completely stumped at a picture of an embryo and resorts to the very poor description or 'Something someone had chewed".


what muhd. showed is work of amateur? i guess now it is time for you to take back your words. looks like science was progressed after the scientific miracles in the quran were researched and were based on them, not vice versa.

Please get your facts right the next time round!

[Brocktoon]

All you have is an amateur description of what could be seen in diagrams or post-mortems.

He thinks its a 'Leech' because that is what an amateur can compare it to.
He's then completely stumped at a picture of an embryo and resorts to the very poor description or 'Something someone had chewed".

what muhd. showed is work of amateur? i guess now it is time for you to take back your words.
I have no reason to take back any words.
Describing stages of the fetus as 'A Leech' or 'Some kind of Chewed up thing' is not only 'Amateurish' but borders on ignorant.
At the very least it is Innocent Naivety.

You dont need to take my word for this.
Take some time to study basic Roman and Persian Empires and their knowledge and Science.
Truly brilliant advancements in the fields of Medicine.
Heck, Romans were performing brain surgery.
They knew withing a few % the exact distance to the Sun and the Cirmumferance of the the Earth.
They even performed plastic surgery.

The Persians were arguably even more advanced than the Romans with tremendous knowledge of infections, disease cures etc.

The Muslim apologists play a 'slight of hand' on students by failing to mention the ancient Empires DECLINED and much of this knowledge was lost to the world.
Even still, we know they have fantastic knowledge of human biology and anatomy just based on the ancient writings we have found so far.
(Surely there was much more)

Now to 'Explain away' this truth, you are attempting to 'dumb down' Mohammed.
Well Mohammeds illiteracy would have very little to do with the Koran.
He most certainly had all kinds of brilliant Scribes at his side
(So did the writers of The Bible)

There would be no surprise at all to find out Mohammed had simply described (in his amateur understanding) what any good Doctor of that day might have told him or one of his Scribes.

The point is this - you DO NOT have proof this was Divine Knowledge.
It does not 'hurt' the case for the Koran either!

But please do not try and pretend there is no other way Mohammed could have known a fetus looked like 'Something like a chewed thing'.
He definately could have known that through ordinary human knowledge of his day.


looks like science was progressed after the scientific miracles in the quran were researched and were based on them, not vice versa.
Actually, The Old and even New Testament had been around LONG BEFORE Mohammed and further more, Mohammed WAS FAMILIAR with 'The Book'
Much of Mohammeds 'Genesis' stories are simply versions of the accounts already written by Moses and others.

Now then, you might want to suggest Mohammeds versions were the accurate and clarifying versions.
But trying to take Mohammeds description of the Universe being called into existance from 'Red Smoke' and then insisting this is compatable with Evolutionists Big Bang theory (a theory being abandoned by the way) is pushing your luck.

Please get your facts right the next time round!
I think you are angry because the real facts are getting in the way of a weak justification for Mohammeds occasional writings about the natural world, which, do not necessarily contradict current theories.
(IF we are soft and flexible with wording and shapes and language)

The problem with the first post still exists.

[NiSh]

"He's then completely stumped at a picture of an embryo and resorts to the very poor description or 'Something someone had chewed".

"Yikes."

so well i guess from ur reaction itself u should know something...u can really picture it WELL...its so clearly put/stated..that u dont have to sit and crack ur brains over how it really looks like cos u know how something someone chews looks like it...cos we eat and chew food...so we certainly know how it looks like...
so isnt it obvious enuff that this is the BEST way to explain how an embryo looks like to the laymen...the Quran is for EVERYONE...not just for the educated..so if the embryo is described in some other...well using better terms..even scientific terms maybe or some really complex words..than a less educated person would have problem comprehendin it...not only this if ur son or daughter asks u how an embryo looks like u can so easily tell them that its looks like something someone had chewed...even kids can understand!
its abt whether u UNDERSTAND when something is said...and if u can actually go YIKES ..show some kinda reaction..well then the description is good!!
so well if u think this description is not good enuff for u..then how would u describe it? am really curious...!! and can u make sure that everyone who reads it understands ur description and has a clear pic of how an embryo looks like.....well of course u don have to try so hard now..cos we all know how to looks like but ask urself....thousand of yrs back..when pple were not as educated as us..when science wasnt AS advance as today...and then someone talks abt embryo using really complex terms...do u think they would even have known wat is bein told to them??? so it is actually decsribed in a way that it reaches out to ALL pple of ALL time with ALL kinds of educational qualification..wat more?

[NiSh]

"Actually, The Old and even New Testament had been around LONG BEFORE Mohammed and further more, Mohammed WAS FAMILIAR with 'The Book'
Much of Mohammeds 'Genesis' stories are simply versions of the accounts already written by Moses and others."

yes indeed true but look at the Bible...Jesus promised that after him a 'COMFORTER' will come but u will have to note that since the muslims are able to prove that this comforter is our Prophet..the Christains actually went out all the way to prove Muslims that they are wrong by adding the words "HOLY SPIRIT" is brackets..u can see this in the urudu version of the Bible..this is something even the bible scholars had NEVER dared to do anyway as i was saying Jesus promised that a comforter will come....to show 'all the dif ways' and to show 'all the truth' of course the christians wouldnt want to lose their sheep by believin me that the comforter Jesus promised is none other than our Prophet...if u are interested i can go and prove my pt...and so it makes sense after Jesus Prophet Muhammad came and Allah completes the faith with the revelation of the Quran.

[NiSh]

"The science of modern cosmology, observational and theoretical, clearly indicates that, at one point in time, the whole universe was nothing but a cloud of ‘smoke?(i.e. an opaque highly dense and hot gaseous composition). This is one of the undisputed principles of standard modern cosmology."

"but to suggest that western science has solved the riddle of how the universe was created is equally wrong."

i think it was made clear enuff that its one of the undisputed principles...

"As usual the Muslim apologist 'Asks' a leading question and assumes the average listener will not know any different."

"How could he know this 1400 years before modern science??'


yes indeed!! if this is just an assumtion then how come no one is able to answer us til now? doesnt the question make sense? its with the use of modern science that man is able to discover so many things in life..but thousand of yrs back...how was this possible??? have u never ever wondered how come the the things in Quran matches with the progress in science today....oh yes even if its a description of an embryo as 'something someone chewed' wouldnt u want to know how even this little fact was known???.....fine even if u believe that Quran is written by Prophet Muhamad have u never wondered how even he could have thought of everythin when he was actually an illerate? Everyone who knows history knows that he was an illerate..its accepted...then how could he have written something so miracualous...when actually great scholars sit together and try to come with a single verse thats as equally as good as the ones in the Quran..and they are NOT ABLE TO...... on the other hand i can give u reasons why Quran is by Allah ALONE and not by Prophet Muhammad...from the diction to the structure alone i can firmly say that NO ONE CAN EVER PRODUCE SUCH A WORK....

[Brocktoon]

Listen.


As a statement of fact. Mohammed certainly could have known what an embryo and its stages of development looked like from natural, earthly means.

I am not even saying Mohammed was incorrect or in error.

I am stating without a doubt that his knowledge of human embryos is not, in itself any evidence of supernatural enlightenment.

You will have to accept this as logical because reason dictates this to be true.

.....

Please stop pretending that no one could have known what human embryos looked like 1400 years ago!
They could EASILY have aquired this knowledge. Period.
.......

As far as the 'eloquence' of the Koran.
This is going to be subject to personal opinions.

Unfortunately Allah did not intend for English speaking people to recieve the 'Eloquence' of the Koran because it sound absolutely horrible when translated into English.
(this is not a test of its truth - but just a stated opinion)

So, can anyone match the eloquence.
I read several attempts to do so but unfortunately the Internet Hosting company was nearly threatened with death by furious Muslim fanatics who DID NOT want anyone reading them!!?
I guess someone with a good command of Arabic and poetic verses did FAR TOO GOOD of a job?

Although the Koran seems to be written with a priority on 'Eloquence' I dont know if that is necessarily any kind of evidence Allah wrote it?
After all, there has been some beautiful poetry and verse written over the centuries.
ShakeSpeare put together some truly eloquent verses in a time when most people were not writing eloquent works of anything... and nobody suggest it was anything but a 'God given talent' - not a divine inspiration.

.....

The rumour that Mohammed was Illiterate has no bearing on anything sorry to say.
Scribes were more than capable of penning words to paper back in those days.
Tradition has it that Mohammed employed a very capable Jewish Scribe and there were none better in that day.

Im curious though.. how many people wrote the Koran with Mohammed?
I keep hearing it was 3 or 4?

[Brocktoon]

BTW, ..


Suggesting that the 'Comforter' Jesus spoke of refers to Mohammed is so insanely wrong that it barely deserves serious thought, however....

Its far-fetched Jesus would endorse a coming Prophet who would claim to be greater than Jesus and rather than comfort any Christians.... would proceed to slaughter everyone who stood in his way - and - subjegate Christians.

Lets get real.

...mind you, you dont even believe the Bible is real anyway. According to Mohammed it was tampered with anyway. So it becomes a silly idea to quote or reference anything from the bible to 'verify' Mohammeds version of the Bible.

[NiSh]

Brocktoon.

i wonder if u realise that watever u have posted is basically just ur opinion..and well i accept all that u said...as UR OPINION...cos well wat u are puttin up is a baseless argument..simple as that...cos there i am explainin to u why Mohammed described an embryo in that way..and u say things like certainly he would have known how it looks like..bla bla bla...yes for certainly i can say many more things...blindly...its really easy..but puttin across facts and makin pple understand them is hard..

anyway even if pple have known abt how an embryo looks like yrs back....how then would u explain the remarks made by the SCIENTISTs...(in jujunisa's post)? so accordin to u all these guys are nuts...i suppose? there are scientists out there who acutally ADMIT and are AMAZED that wat they are discoverin now is actually found in the Quran....so yes they must be really crazy right? i mean so what if they are so darn qualified than u and me..and so what if this gives them more credit to comment abt the Quran...oh yeah it means nothing...i just cant believe this..why is that we have to keep provin ourselves.? maybe u should start askin questions urself..how can anyone yrs back could have known of this???? if this is not divine revealation..wat else can it be....if ur logic tells that MOhamad wrote all that...well i have got nothin more to say...cos i am not here to promote islam...neither do i want u to accept islam..the only reason i participate in the discussion here is cos pple have sooooooooo many misconceptions abt islam they forgot that MUSLIMS are HUMANS TOO..well.....i am as human as u are...i hate violence as much as u do..i respect people..i want peace too as much as anyone else...i find all these in Islam...and if i find that islam teaches me as otherwise...i wouldnt want to be a muslim....but this is not how it is...i see it...its black and white to me..crystal clear ...i know wat i am in...but wat disturbs me the most is that most pple here dont know islam at all and they are judgin it by the actions of some humans..this is wat i simply cant stand at all..its just like u walk in the street and someone who doesnt know u at all says u are nasty and horrible..this is wat i find here..believe me if anyone can even give me REASONABLE explanation that the Quran is NOT divine revelation and etc..i wouldnt speak a word..but everyone here is so opinionated..i accept opinions everyone is free to share their views..i talk to my christain frens abt christianity and to my hindu frens abt hinduism..but its nothing like wat they have here...if u dont know something i think the best thing is u take the initiative to learn or at least someone who knows it well..but here pple are hurlin insensitive remarks...am not sayin u did...but there others who are doin it...and am getin sick and tired of this whole thing...i dont think i need to prove anything..i found the truth..and am blissfully at peace with it...

anyway so like i was sayin.... i know that many muslims claim how anyone yrs back would have known abt all this....and of course meanin that this is then divine revelation..yes i understand that hearin this from muslims over and over again might make pple think that they are just sayin that this is infact the challenge of the Quran. like i said NO MAN CAN EVER PRODUCE SUCH A WORK..u are talkin abt REWRITIN THE QURAN( I read several attempts to do so but unfortunately the Internet Hosting company was nearly threatened with death by furious Muslim fanatics who DID NOT want anyone reading them!!?)
..and of course any good muslim would feel angry abt this..cos to us this is the ultimate TRUTH..and if any jackass comes along and tries to distort the truth we woould of course react to it..i mean do u think we should just be sitting there watch pple do stuffs like that and would that make islam seem like a peaceful religion to u??? it doesnt work like that...!! but wat i was refering in my previous post was not abt rewritin the Quran..but abt producin ANYTHING with such a standard...no one could write anything to that level...am not just blabberin in ignorance to defend the Quran and Islam..i dont do that..i am someone who believes in seein the evidence rather then just utterin opinions..and this is the only reason why i am still a muslim.....anyway pple have tried to produce somethin a good as the Quran. infact it was the Christain Arabs in the Middle East who attempted this..they launched a 16 yrs project and produced selected portions of the New Testament in Arabic WITH A WHOLESALE BORROWIN OF WORDS AND PHRASES VERBATIM FROM THE ARABIC QURAN!!(why the need to do this if they can write somethin equally good..or maybe like u said something even more better????) it is an ignoble attempt. in this unashamed plagiarism EVERY chapter of this NEW Arabic New Testament of theirs begins with the first verse of the Quran "BISMILLAHIRAHMANIRAHIM"

anyway the standin challenge of the Quran...

"This Quran is not such as can be
produced by othre than Allah."

Holy Quran 10:37

"Say: "If the whole of mankind
and Jinns were to gather
together to produce the like of
this Quran, they could not
produce the like thereof, even if
they backed up each other with
help and support."

Holy Quran 17:88

"Or do they say, "He forged it"?
say: "Bring then a Sure like
Unto it, and call (to your aid)
anyone can, besides Allah,
If it be that ye speak the truth!"

Holy Quran 10:38

"And if ye are in doubt as to what
We have revealed from time to
time to Our servant,then
produce a Sura like thereunto;
And call your witnesses or helpers
(if there are any) besides Allah. If
your (doubts)are true.

Holy Quran 2:23

it is now 14 hundred year since the above challenges but if mankind has singularly failed to produce anything similar or something better...trust me if by now they have something like this it will be next major thing in the world.....this is an ETERNAL TESTIMONY of the DIVINE ORIGIN of the holy Quran.

i think if any could they would have produced one by now...
anyway as usual am sure u will reject this and will have something to say against it..so its okie..

[NiSh]

anyway i wanted to explain to u why Comforter is Prophet Muhammad ...well again i do have evidences..but well u have already decided tat its insane..and if one doesnt listen with an open mind..the only word thats goin to be runnin thru his mind the whole time he is gonna readin anyting would be "NO NO NO ITS CRAP" so theres no point in me goin into this at all..am readin ur posts with an open mind but if i dont get the same why should i bother? and of course the Christians will NEVER accept this...if they do they would be Muslims then :P and as i already mentioned since the it was bein proven to them that Muhammed is the Comforter and not the Holy Spirit they started putin the term Holy Spirit in backets beside the word comforter..thats how secured they feel with their belief..i have got nothin more to say.

[openmind]

anyway i wanted to explain to u why Comforter is Prophet Muhammad ...well again i do have evidences..but well u have already decided tat its insane..and if one doesnt listen with an open mind..the only word thats goin to be runnin thru his mind the whole time he is gonna readin anyting would be "NO NO NO ITS CRAP" so theres no point in me goin into this at all..am readin ur posts with an open mind but if i dont get the same why should i bother? and of course the Christians will NEVER accept this...if they do they would be Muslims then :P and as i already mentioned since the it was bein proven to them that Muhammed is the Comforter and not the Holy Spirit they started putin the term Holy Spirit in backets beside the word comforter..thats how secured they feel with their belief..i have got nothin more to say.if the crristians red there bible with an open mind or had read the ancient scriptures they would belive every word of this
we were created by gods a race of gods that came from the stars and the heavens above
only the armys of the war mongering gots are left
all the peacefull races wich the god of the people of israil said to them you will conqer many nations greater than yourselves (go forth and breed (me an army )were distroyed by the evil gods

[Brocktoon]

Lets talk about 'Closed Minds'.

It has been established by all logic and reason that Mohammed 'COULD' have known what human Embryo's looked like WITHOUT HAVING DIVINE REVELATION.

This we can all agree is possible.

YET.. AMAZINGLY..

.. One poster fly directly into the face of logic and common-sense and wrongly insists that Mohammed could 'ONLY' know this from Divine Revelation.

THAT my friends IS the definition of close mindedness.

//

The comments [Holy Spirit] beside the sentence refering to The Comforter has nothing to do with the outrageous and silly idea that Jesus is refering to Mohammed.

Its senseless to suppose that Jesus would just mention Mohammed one time in his ministry. A Prophet supposedly greater than Jesus himself, a Prophet who's words would disqualify Christianity and a Prophet who was going to war against Jews AND Christians.
Come on.. Get real!

//

I think its strange and somewhat sad that you validate truth based on how eloguently it is spoken.
Many cultures on Earth even recognise Satan himself is capable of sweet, eloquent and 'beautiful' words.
Some of the worlds most skilled and marvelous poets, composers and writers were scoundrels at heart.
Eloguence in itself will not reveal the truthfulness of a teaching.

Some might even argue that the tremendous effort Mohammed and his Scribes put into making the Koran 'Sound pretty and nice to the ears' is reason to be SUSPICIOUS!

There is no point in translating the Bible in Arabic and asking if it 'Sounds as Eloquent' as the Koran.
This would mean absolutely nothing to a sane judgement.
'Pretty sounding' is NOT how we judge content.

In case you do insist on judging the content and truthfullness of a scripture based on how Eloquent it sounds - Then you should know the New Testament sounds absolutely beautiful when the 'Kings James Version' is read by a well spoken englishman.

So its 'more true' now?

[Brocktoon]

Just to steer us back to the original Topic Islam & Science

I mentioned there was a problem and I will certainly be happy to give reason why I see this problem:

The following explains why Mohammed was saying nothing new.
Please note: This does not mean Mohammed was wrong - it just proves that Divine Revelation was NOT NEEDED for Mohammed to write those statements.


In an effort to show the scientific accuracy of the Koran, Muslim's are quick to bring up the claim of embryology revealed in stunning accuracy, before man discovered for himself. Muslims love to tell the story of how professor Keith L. Moore, the former anatomist at the University of Toronto, was impressed with the Koran’s embryological information.

However many Muslim are completely unaware that all of the information in the Qur'an about embryology had already been revealed many different times, centuries before hand. Furthermore, some of the information is scientifically inaccurate.

But don't take my word for it, early Muslim doctors, like Ibn-Qayyim, were first to blow the whistle when they saw the Koranic material, mirrored a Greek doctor named Galen, who lived of 150 AD. In 1983 Basim Musallam, Director of the Centre of Middle Eastern Studies at the University of Cambridge concluded, "The stages of development which the Qur'an and Hadith established for believers agreed perfectly with Galen's scientific account....There is no doubt that medieval thought appreciated this agreement between the Qur'an and Galen, for Arabic science employed the same Qur'anic terms to describe the Galenic stages" (B. Musallam (Cambridge, 1983) Sex and Society in Islam. p. 54) In other words when it comes to embryology the Qur'an merely echoes the scientific knowledge man had already discovered 450 years earlier.

Samuel ha-Yehudi was a 2nd century Jewish physician, and one of many with an interest in embryology . The embryo was called peri habbetten (fruit of the body) and develops as golem (formless, rolled-up thing); shefir meruqqam (embroidered foetus - shefir means amniotic sac); 'ubbar (something carried); v'alad (child); v'alad shel qayama (noble or viable child) and ben she-kallu chadashav (child whose months have been completed). (J. Needham (Cambridge, 2nd edition 1959) A History of Embryology, p. 77)

J. Needham spent almost 60 pages in his book "A history of embryology", discussing ancient Greek, Indian and Egyptian embryology, than in less than 1 page he dismisses the entire Arabic tradition by concluding that "Arabic science ... was not of great help to embryology". After listing some of the verses in the Qur'an about embryology he dismisses them as "a seventh-century echo of Aristotle and the Ayer-veda" . (J. Needham (Cambridge, 2nd edition 1959) A History of Embryology, p. 82), in other words a mixture of Greek and ancient Indian teachings.

And what about professor Keith L. Moore, once at the University of Toronto, who Muslims love to quote as a scientist who saw the light of the Koran? If you buy Moore’s latest sixth edition University textbook called "The developing human", he actually directs his readers to read an essay by Basim Musallam, who we just quoted. who shows that the Koran merely echoes what Greek doctor "Galen" wrote 450 years earlier. It seems Dr. Moore is not as impressed today. (B. Musallam, The human embryo in Arabic scientific and religious thought, in, G. R. Dunstan (ed.) (University of Exeter Press, 1990) The human embryo: Aristotle and the Arabic and European traditions, pp. 32-46)

An extraordinary passage from the writings of the medieval philosopher Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya shows how heavily the later Arabic writers depended upon the Greek doctors; in one continuous discourse (Ibn Qayyin (Damascus, 1971) Tuhfat: Tuhfat al mawdud bi ahkam al-mawlud, pp. 254-291) the words of Hippocrates explain the Qur'an and Hadith, and the latter are used to explain Hippocrates:

"Here is someone writing a medical account who includes Hippocrates, the Qur'an and Hadith (bold italics), commentaries on them (italics) and his own thoughts (normal type) in one and the same paragraph. Of course the intelligentsia of Muhammed's time would have been familiar with both Greek and Indian medicine: "Hippocrates said ... 'some membranes are formed at the beginning, others after the second month, and others in the third month ...' That is why God says, 'He creates you in the wombs of your mothers, by one formation after another in three darknesses'. Since each of these membranes has its own darkness, when God mentioned the stages of creation and transformation from one state to another, He also mentioned the darknesses of the membranes. Most commentators explain: 'it is the darkness of the belly, and the darkness of the womb, and the darkness of the placenta' ... Hippocrates said, 'The ears are opened, and the eyes, which are filled with a clear liquid.' The Prophet used to say, 'I worship Him Who made my face and formed it, and opened my hearing and eyesight' etc. etc"" (B. Musallam (Cambridge, 1983) Sex and Society in Islam. p. 56).

The Koran says in16:4 "He has created man from a sperm-drop", but this was understood about 2000 years before the Koran, for the Bible says, "Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother’s wife, he wasted his seed on the ground in order not to give offspring to his brother." (Genesis 38:9) That man was created from dust is recorded in Gen 2.

Scientific errors related to embryology are contained in the Koran. In 86:6-7 the Koran says, "He is created from a drop emitted- Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs". This echoes the scientific error of Hippocrates who believe semen originates from all the fluid in the body, starting from the brain down the spinal chord, before passing through the kidneys and finally the testicles into the penis. (Hippocratic Writings, Penguin Classics, 1983, p. 317)

[Brocktoon]

Some suggest that Mohammed is challenging that a Book as eloquent as The Koran OR THE OLD TESTAMENT... In anycase, this is a challenge that makes very little sense from any objective angle.

Who is judging this competition??
What are the standards - Beautiful Sweet words, even spacing, the 'Sound' it makes to the Ears?

Most English Speakers would say Spanish is a hundred times more 'Beautiful' to hear than Arabic - Are they 'Wrong'?

In anycase, here is a Sura that some Arabic speakers consider just as 'Eloguent' as anything in the Koran?

http://suralikeit.com/al_mukataa.gif

[Brocktoon]

Hello?
Well dont just run away guys. I would appreciate your reply?

[Spiritforces]

"Who is judging this competition??"

Words Apart, your ask could look really weird

Maybe you should replace the words "this competition" by " you or that thread you have been so active in.

Do not let yourself and Jonny2mad have public debate,
you are exposing what so many weep about

(I mean the kind of occupation you have on such thread, with such kind of will, males me weep).

[Brocktoon]

Why are you avoiding Muhammeds Challenge Spiritforces?

Mohammed institutes a competition (not me or anyone else).

He challenges anyone to write a more eloquent scripture than he (and Allah) has written.

Now my question is a simple one - Who will decide what is more eloquent?

Dont be sad, dont weep for me or anyone else.. simply try and answer this question?

Who is judging the 'Eloquent Scripture' competition that your Mohammed has started?

[cabdirazzaq]

This alleged surah which you posted his a funny, a vain attempt to resemble a quranic surah, Im not suprised that the author didn´t add a translation of english( Ive seen some of the others so called "surahs" in his page and they all seme to have no meaning carried in them) to this surah. You know, even if he made it sound "quite" ok, it´s totally without meaning. As one who knows more then half of the quran by heart I must say:
Ha ha, I dont seem to know if I should laugh at this poor attempt or be angry...

[Brocktoon]

Yes, I want to laugh to, Cabdiraz.

Here is the obvious problem - Mohammeds Challenge is completely Subjective.
Realistically many people might decide these Surah's are more eloquent.

You will certainly say that they are 'not very eloquent'.

Non-Arab speaking listeners/readers would maybe make no distinction and possibly find either Surah 'Ugly' or 'Unattractive' to the ear.

When translated into English, The Koran sounds perfectly ordinary (if we are refering to 'Eloquence')
So Mohammeds Allah only proves his reality by being eloquent in one language?

If I were you Cab... I would outwardly laugh at the new Surah .. but inside you should probably be angry. Very Angry.

But dont be angry.. just accept and judge according to the truth you see before you.
Ask God to show you more.

Maybe he is telling you something loud and clear and for your benefit when a Surah is shown as eloquent as Mohammeds Surahs?

[Alvy007]

In some way u r right. But u should know that Muhammad (PBUH) used a helper to write down the Holy Quran. In this way u r right.

But in another way u r totally wrong. Allah (swrt) send the messages to the Blessed Prophet and he used to tell his helper to write in the Holy Quran.