When should it be okay to have an abortion? [Archive]

MaximusXXX

01-14-2007, 02:19 AM

drumminmama

01-14-2007, 05:14 PM

legal at all times, because the rhetoric obscures what is going on with late-term abortions.
These are anacephaletic kids, kids with profound disabilities and enlarged but dead fetuses that the skull deflation will allow the mother to bear without a c-section, a tiny grace at a moment of loss.
as for simple clinics, first trimester is optimum, esp when the chemical abortions can be used. Second trimester should be available (it's a two-day procedure, mostly for dialation)
If abortion is a choice, please make it as soon as you can, and secure the cash.

Max, for someone who didn't want debate, you left a challenge in your last sentance.
you'll get takers on it.

I'm also taking this somewhere other than people, so I hope you followed the link.
It does not fit in people.

StartToday

01-21-2007, 03:53 AM

I don't think it should be legal after the first trimester, except in cases like those that drumminmama listed. There's really no reason to have an abortion a week before your due date if you have a healthy fetus. You might as well just have the kid, he or she is fully developed, and there were 9 previous months to make the decision to abort.

Maryslittlebrat

03-30-2007, 02:39 PM

This is a difficult question b/c it has to be left personal
Im pro life but not to the point my voice in anyway will stand against others or vote for it to be illegal. The trimester doesn't make much difference to me
peace

Eugene

04-19-2007, 03:54 PM

maryjanegirl_2005

05-01-2007, 07:36 PM

This is a very difficult question to answer.

BudToker

05-04-2007, 02:32 AM

themnax

05-04-2007, 01:31 PM

as early in pregnancy as possible, but it is still better to avoid pregnancy in the first place and to make the means of doing so freely and readily available to persons of all genders and potentialy child bearing and child causing ages.

and i do mean even most WANTED pregnancies are TOO MANY, let alone unwanted ones.

what we really need is to put something in the drinking water or some other way that favors no one, that will lower ALL human FERTILITY accross the board without bias or exception.

there's just too damd many of us being born as it is at all period.

abortions are the least desirable solution, but not including them as an option
would be much much worse.

=^^=
.../\...

3xi

05-05-2007, 11:34 PM

abortion is a bunch of crazy monkeys with knives!

BudToker

05-06-2007, 02:30 AM

By putting something in the drinking water it would impose on free will. Also, making abortions illegal at any stage would do the same. Free will is what America and the democratic process is based on. Of course free will is imposed on sometimes anyway, but why should we impose on it more? Everyone should have a choice to have kids or not.

3xi

05-06-2007, 03:30 AM

BudToker

05-06-2007, 03:59 AM

i think that people should be able to do what they want. i would say that there are definitely negative consequences to abortion, it doesnt matter when or how you do it.

life is such a beautiful thing. to fuck with it is a sin.(i am not religious, just know of no better word to use.)

But what if the mom were to die without an abortion? By not having an abortion you fuck with life too. What if the kid would grow up in a shithole because his/her parents are way too poor and would then later die from disease or hunger? Would you choose to bring a child into a living hell that it would be tortured in up till its death, or would you rather have the life ended before the hell began?

3xi

05-06-2007, 04:06 AM

But what if the mom were to die without an abortion? By not having an abortion you fuck with life too. What if the kid would grow up in a shithole because his/her parents are way too poor and would then later die from disease or hunger? Would you choose to bring a child into a living hell that it would be tortured in up till its death, or would you rather have the life ended before the hell began?what if you realize when your child is two years old that you can not afford children - do you kill your child, rough it, or give it up for adoption?

BudToker

05-06-2007, 04:27 AM

what if you realize when your child is two years old that you can not afford children - do you kill your child, rough it, or give it up for adoption?If you were to "rough it" who's to say the child and you would not die from lack of food, water, shelter, etc.? So you put it up for adoption. Unfortunatly that's not possible in a lot of cases and the child ends up dying anyway. I would much rather be aborted when I don't feel pain than be slowely killed while living a hellish life.

BTW, you never answered my question on whether or not it is ok to abort a baby for the life of the mother. Either way you are "fucking" with life, which you previously stated you don't agree with.

Eugene

05-07-2007, 03:30 PM

y'know, for something that is more or less a 'women's issue', most of the posters have been male...
this is kinda like a bunch of guys debating the pros and cons of brands of tampons. we just don't have the experience to adequately be informed.
i say leave it up to the wimin folk...

BudToker

05-07-2007, 06:30 PM

Eugene

05-19-2007, 03:41 AM

Lol so that means we can have and voice oppinions on a major issue in world? I'd say that's extreamly sexist of you.i'm saying that it's so outside or scope of reference to understand what it's like to be pregnant or have an abortion (or really even empathise) that we really don't have the same ability to decide...

3xi

05-20-2007, 05:59 AM

i'm saying that it's so outside or scope of reference to understand what it's like to be pregnant or have an abortion (or really even empathise) that we really don't have the same ability to decide...you are an idiot.

what a stupid argument.

Eugene

05-20-2007, 04:04 PM

you are an idiot.

what a stupid argument.okay, so what's it like to know that your baby will be born with a horrible genetic disease that will render it lifeless within two years. what's it like to have another person growing inside of you. what is it like to miscarry, what is it like to be so poor and fucked that the only way you can provide for yourself is to have an abortion?
can you answer any of those questions?
you can't?
because you have a penis?
well, then i don't think you can really weigh in on the issue.

it's kindof like speculating on the motives of the ancient romans, it's something so foreign that all our opinions come off as naive at best...

so maybe the men should leave the table and let the people that it actually affects decide.

MaximusXXX

05-21-2007, 05:26 AM

Not too many people have voted but from the votes cast so far only 2 voted for unrestricted abortion which is my main concern.

I was also thinking of making an abortion poll about whether abortion should only be allowed in special circumstances etc but it seems to me like few people actually care about the detail and would rather have the yes or no option.

I sure hope more people vote.

Zoomie

05-21-2007, 05:33 AM

"Being pregnant 20 years ago with MaximusXXX" wasn't a poll option, I would think that was an excellent opportunity to abort.

MaximusXXX

05-21-2007, 08:04 PM

I think with that statement you just fell lower than me on the principles scale.

BudToker

06-03-2007, 05:14 AM

okay, so what's it like to know that your baby will be born with a horrible genetic disease that will render it lifeless within two years. what's it like to have another person growing inside of you. what is it like to miscarry, what is it like to be so poor and fucked that the only way you can provide for yourself is to have an abortion?
can you answer any of those questions?
you can't?
because you have a penis?
well, then i don't think you can really weigh in on the issue.

it's kindof like speculating on the motives of the ancient romans, it's something so foreign that all our opinions come off as naive at best...

so maybe the men should leave the table and let the people that it actually affects decide.
Someone seems to harbor a lot of male guilt. By your logic women should have no say in discussions about circumcisions. But everyone's oppinions matter and everyone should be able to voice them. How else can we grow intelectually?

Mirakel

06-09-2007, 02:39 AM

the bible says that children less than a month old aren't human beings. so 29 days after giving birth is the latest you can have an abortion (at least according to god's laws).

Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD. -- Numbers 3:15-16 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/num/3.html#15)

And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. -- Leviticus 27:6 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/lev/27.html#6)

i dont cuss, but you have no CLUE how hard it was not to when i saw this. firstly, NEVER use god as an excuse when you're talking about murder, because then we might as well start up a jihad while we're at it. firstly, they were doing censuses and such things, not determining the value of human life. secondly, notice that it says "from a month old." these are children that are ALREADY BORN. month old babies. then according to you, god completely condones infantacide up to a month of age. i imagine god is as pissed off right now as i am.

Eugene

07-20-2007, 05:40 AM

i dont cuss, but you have no CLUE how hard it was not to when i saw this. firstly, NEVER use god as an excuse when you're talking about murder, because then we might as well start up a jihad while we're at it. firstly, they were doing censuses and such things, not determining the value of human life. secondly, notice that it says "from a month old." these are children that are ALREADY BORN. month old babies. then according to you, god completely condones infantacide up to a month of age. i imagine god is as pissed off right now as i am.god completely condones infanticide up until the age of one month (or at least doesn't punish it, kind of like how pot seeds are legal in canada).
the god you read about in the old testament is very different from the god you read about in magazines or watch on television.
he's a sick f*cked up bastard.
that and the infant mortality rate was so god damned high that it wasn't 'worth it' to count children as alive in the sense that odds are they weren't going to live past their first month.

and in both cases he's making an effort to value human life, and in both cases babies under 1 month are not included...

so, yeah.

I don't believe in any of it mind you, just always thought it strange that some people who take the bible as their moral set are so vehemently against abortion.

MaximusXXX

07-21-2007, 03:37 AM

god completely condones infanticide up until the age of one month (or at least doesn't punish it, kind of like how pot seeds are legal in canada).
the god you read about in the old testament is very different from the god you read about in magazines or watch on television.
he's a sick f*cked up bastard.
that and the infant mortality rate was so god damned high that it wasn't 'worth it' to count children as alive in the sense that odds are they weren't going to live past their first month.

and in both cases he's making an effort to value human life, and in both cases babies under 1 month are not included...

so, yeah.

I don't believe in any of it mind you, just always thought it strange that some people who take the bible as their moral set are so vehemently against abortion.
LOL, in the Old Testament if I remember right, Soloman's crown is taken away by God ( as King of the Jews ) because he fails to kill ALL of a tribe, I forget, he was suppose to kill ALL of them and he left one go and that didn't sit too well with God, LOL.

the_celtic_one

12-07-2007, 06:42 PM

Maybe some of you know my thread on Abortion in the protest section, anyway I've stated a few times that it should be legal until the first heartbeat, which is usually 5-6 weeks but it depends on the embryo.

So here's a poll for when you think it should be legal, so no debates on whether it's right or wrong, I think that should tone down the hostility, this is just how allowable should it be.

In countries such as Canada abortion is allowed until the fetus comes out, that's right, it's legal to have an abortion in the third trimester, sometimes a week before the due date.
I beleive abortion is always wrong in any sense no matter what the circumstances, and here is why:

1.) It is a living being. This isn't a question it is truth that just gets denied and thrown aside as strictly religious thinking. It has a heartbeat (at least after a few weeks), it has all the components of a human being, and it is most deffinately aliving thing. Next, if it is alive, it is a human being because it contains all the correct DNA and after a few weeks, all the features of one.

2.) Calling it "Pro-Choice" is deceitful... It is a woman's choice what to do with her body, yes, I completely agree with this! However, the woman had SEVERAL choices before she got pregnant: a.) She chose to have sex and not just do some mutual masturbation or give oral or something... b.) She chose to let the guy put it in without a condom or birth control, or even without pulling out (not always effective, but better than NOTHING). c.) She chose NOT to take the morning after pill to keep the fetus from forming. She had a lot of choices before hand, to deal with her body that didn't involve killing a living being.

3.) The arguement regarding "Well, what about cases of rape and incest?". Look at the statisitcs those don't even account for 1 single percent of abortions that occur! Many of the women who suffer through those pains realize that what happened was bad, but it isn't the fetus's fault it happened, so why make the child pay for it?

4.) Those who argue against adoption as an option: My brother and his wife are in the process of adopting a kid... There are no babies left for them to adopt. There is a WAITING LIST to adopt babies! They have no problem finding a loving home! The ones who have problems are the ones who are above 5 years old, who went into the adoption service after 5 years old!

5.) It teaches young women to live a life with no consequences... "Oh that one night stand with some creepy stranger got me knocked up... Oh well, I will just get rid of the baby because it inconveniances me!"

6.) Dr. Ron Paul delivered over 4,000 babies and said that there was not a single case where he had to even think about the possibility of abortion to save the life of the mother, or even saw it nessecarry at all.

Okiefreak

12-09-2007, 07:11 AM

I beleive abortion is always wrong in any sense no matter what the circumstances, and here is why:

1.) It is a living being. This isn't a question it is truth that just gets denied and thrown aside as strictly religious thinking. It has a heartbeat (at least after a few weeks), it has all the components of a human being, and it is most deffinately aliving thing. Next, if it is alive, it is a human being because it contains all the correct DNA and after a few weeks, all the features of one.

2.) Calling it "Pro-Choice" is deceitful... It is a woman's choice what to do with her body, yes, I completely agree with this! However, the woman had SEVERAL choices before she got pregnant: a.) She chose to have sex and not just do some mutual masturbation or give oral or something... b.) She chose to let the guy put it in without a condom or birth control, or even without pulling out (not always effective, but better than NOTHING). c.) She chose NOT to take the morning after pill to keep the fetus from forming. She had a lot of choices before hand, to deal with her body that didn't involve killing a living being.

3.) The arguement regarding "Well, what about cases of rape and incest?". Look at the statisitcs those don't even account for 1 single percent of abortions that occur! Many of the women who suffer through those pains realize that what happened was bad, but it isn't the fetus's fault it happened, so why make the child pay for it?

4.) Those who argue against adoption as an option: My brother and his wife are in the process of adopting a kid... There are no babies left for them to adopt. There is a WAITING LIST to adopt babies! They have no problem finding a loving home! The ones who have problems are the ones who are above 5 years old, who went into the adoption service after 5 years old!

5.) It teaches young women to live a life with no consequences... "Oh that one night stand with some creepy stranger got me knocked up... Oh well, I will just get rid of the baby because it inconveniances me!"

6.) Dr. Ron Paul delivered over 4,000 babies and said that there was not a single case where he had to even think about the possibility of abortion to save the life of the mother, or even saw it nessecarry at all.To me, the relevant questions are: (1) when does the fetus feel pain? and (2) when does the fetus have awareness? I think it's difficult to argue that either of these things begins at conception, but it's also hard to argue that they haven't occurred well before the time of birth. Neurological and brain development, not heart and "features", should be the focus. This eliminates fretting about the rights of blastocysts in Petri dishes, or charges against women who use the "morning after" pill. By the way, how do you feel about the right to die?

themnax

12-09-2007, 11:21 AM

Okiefreak

12-09-2007, 05:56 PM

quite simply; when no other available option would cause less (total, to all involved) suffering.

(the avoidance of causing suffering is the litmus test of ALL moral and ethical questions. there really is no other morality.)

=^^=
.../\...Would you apply the same rule to infanticide or to the decision to pull the plug on a dying person who always expressed a desire to be kept alive at all costs?

Okiefreak

12-10-2007, 06:14 AM

One problem I had with the poll was the cutoff given for the beginning of the fetal stage. Isn't it usually week 8?

WanderingSoul

12-10-2007, 06:31 AM

I beleive abortion is always wrong in any sense no matter what the circumstances, and here is why:

1.) It is a living being. This isn't a question it is truth that just gets denied and thrown aside as strictly religious thinking. It has a heartbeat (at least after a few weeks), it has all the components of a human being, and it is most deffinately aliving thing. Next, if it is alive, it is a human being because it contains all the correct DNA and after a few weeks, all the features of one.

2.) Calling it "Pro-Choice" is deceitful... It is a woman's choice what to do with her body, yes, I completely agree with this! However, the woman had SEVERAL choices before she got pregnant: a.) She chose to have sex and not just do some mutual masturbation or give oral or something... b.) She chose to let the guy put it in without a condom or birth control, or even without pulling out (not always effective, but better than NOTHING). c.) She chose NOT to take the morning after pill to keep the fetus from forming. She had a lot of choices before hand, to deal with her body that didn't involve killing a living being.

3.) The arguement regarding "Well, what about cases of rape and incest?". Look at the statisitcs those don't even account for 1 single percent of abortions that occur! Many of the women who suffer through those pains realize that what happened was bad, but it isn't the fetus's fault it happened, so why make the child pay for it?

4.) Those who argue against adoption as an option: My brother and his wife are in the process of adopting a kid... There are no babies left for them to adopt. There is a WAITING LIST to adopt babies! They have no problem finding a loving home! The ones who have problems are the ones who are above 5 years old, who went into the adoption service after 5 years old!

5.) It teaches young women to live a life with no consequences... "Oh that one night stand with some creepy stranger got me knocked up... Oh well, I will just get rid of the baby because it inconveniances me!"

6.) Dr. Ron Paul delivered over 4,000 babies and said that there was not a single case where he had to even think about the possibility of abortion to save the life of the mother, or even saw it nessecarry at all.This is all bullshit.

Basically what you're saying is that you think women have abortions for selfish reasons. That is sooo not the truth. A woman should have the right to choose.

Okiefreak

12-10-2007, 05:25 PM

Maybe some of you know my thread on Abortion in the protest section, anyway I've stated a few times that it should be legal until the first heartbeat, which is usually 5-6 weeks but it depends on the embryo.Why is a heartbeat the deciding factor? It seems to me we have to clarify the ethical system we're going by & make the decision as to what threshold of development gives an embryo moral significance. Conception is a significant threshold, because at that point the embryo has the chromosomes that will make it a distinctive person, and if unhindered has the capacity to develop into a baby. If we think these characteristics are in themselves important, it's reasonable to say abortion should be unavailable from that point. Certainly, there's life involved, and it's human if it has human DNA. I can see how people could regard it as valuable or "sacred" material. When we're talking about the embryo or fetus as a "person" with rights that can trump a mother's choice, though, it seems hard to me to confer that status on a blastocyst. If there are rights involved other than hers, they're God's or society's rights. Implantation in the uterus is another event that could be taken as as significant from the standpoint of embryonic stability.

But some philosophers and early church fathers believed that the life wasn't fully human at that point because "ensoulment" occurred later, and of course utilitarians see the capacity to feel pain as critical. As I understand it, an embryo begins to develop the rudiments of a brain at 4 to 5 weeks, shows brain activity at six weeks, has pain sensors at 7 weeks. Some experts argue that the cognitive experience of pain requires further development of nerve pathways and higher brain functions over 12 to 28 weeks. Another consideration, that I have trouble relating to but is important to the courts, is when does the fetus become "viable", or capable of surviving outside the mother?

hippie_chick666

12-11-2007, 11:19 PM

I feel this abortion debate is ridiculous. If you believe abortion is murder, then don't have an abortion! Not everyone shares your religious/ethic beliefs; let others decide for themselves based on their beliefs! I am Buddhist and wouldn't have an abortion, but I believe that women should have the right to choose b/c not everyone shares my beliefs! Most Buddhists don't eat meat, but you don't hear them criticizing people who eat meat or try to ban others from eating meat! That is our opinion and it should only apply to the people who hold that belief; not everyone has the same beliefs.

One thing that makes me sick is fanatics who believe it is wrong to have an abortion siting that it is murder, and then they go murder doctors who perform abortions. I thought you said that murder was wrong, even if the being isn't fully developed and born, but you can murder beings that are fully sentient, alive, breathing air, and have their own families? WTF?!? That is SO hypocritical- either murder is wrong or it's not. You can't have it both ways (okay to murder adults, but wrong to kill fetuses).

Once again, if you believe abortion is murder and murder is wrong, don't have an abortion. Don't hold others to your belief system b/c not everyone believes the same things!

(Another thing that irritates me; people who believe abortion is wrong but state sponsored executions are okay- but that's another thread)

Peace and love

hippie_chick666

12-11-2007, 11:36 PM

Would you apply the same rule to infanticide or to the decision to pull the plug on a dying person who always expressed a desire to be kept alive at all costs?Most of the time, the dying person left others w/ their wishes. Now, on the flip side, what about a person who is dying and DOESN'T want to be kept alive? Someone slowly dying of cancer and no pain killers reduce the pain and they will suffer for another year?

Our society is neither savage nor wise. Half measures of the curse of it- doctor assisted suicide is illegal, but it is perfectly legal to remove the feeding tube, leaving that person to slowly die from dehydration, which can take a week or longer? Who suffers more, the person given a lethal cocktail by a doctor and drifts off to sleep, never to wake again, or the person who feels the pain of slowly dehydrating to death? This is proof of my first statement.

BTW, if anyone wants to respond, it may be best to put this subject in a different thread.

Peace and love

MaximusXXX

12-12-2007, 10:55 AM

Idiots who believe everyone should go about their way and do what they want do not understand the concept of government.

A government is set to rule a nation and its people.

If a government comes into play and says abortion is illegal, you will not argue against that government freely, albeit you could oppose illegally and in secrecy.

The point here, I am in politics, already, I work for politicians, I get paid for my work and I will become a lawyer, I will be one of the people that goes into the political systems and inflicts my beliefs into the system, into the structure.

And that is how ladies and gentlemen, laws are made, by bias, somebody has to go present a law, and promote is to be passed, and once its passed it's not because it's the " right " thing, it's because the person who pushed for that law to be passed thought it was the " right " thing.

Now, I am not a religious individual, I don't believe in morals and ethics, but I do believe in the benefit vs. negative system and it's been proven through factual statistics that nations who have unlimited and unrestricted abortion law systems, have failing birth rates.

Failing birth rates lead to one of two, longer career requirement before retirement is alotted, or an imbalance of working and retirees.

This creates economic problems people.

That's why I am against abortion but completely pro euthanasia.

And for the one who asked about the heart beat, I believe a heart beat signifies an independant life form, I mean worms have hearts, once something has a heart it becomes a being rather than a simple organism or plantation.

I just think women who don't plan on having kids have temporary birth control, I mean medically, not just pills.

To be honest I would be for mandatory storing of male and female reproductive products and have people that want to have children, those children be made, yes made.

Imagine baby factories.

That would once and for all eliminate the abortion arguement.

But we have about 2 decades to go for something like that.

hippie_chick666

12-12-2007, 07:28 PM

^^^

You forget there's a separation of church and state. Our gov't shouldn't be making laws based on religious beliefs, and that's what most of anti-abortion propaganda is based on.

Peace and love

MaximusXXX

12-13-2007, 01:02 AM

^^^

You forget there's a separation of church and state. Our gov't shouldn't be making laws based on religious beliefs, and that's what most of anti-abortion propaganda is based on.

Peace and love
Uh, yeah, maybe most, but like I said I don't support abortion because it's a negative on the economy, and yeah I have my principles about killing babies, some things you can't create, some people are born with talents you can't create in a tube, like an artist.

Again, those that say those kids might have a shit future, all I say is the government can better orphanage homes, in the Soviet Union children were very well raised by the State...well those children that showed promise...not retards.

hippie_chick666

12-13-2007, 01:29 AM

Gov't agencies can't even protect abused children from their parents; how can it raise a child? Or say, thousands of them?

http://www.nospank.net/gauvin.htm
http://www.jconline.com/apps/pbcs.d...me&theme=AIYANA
http://protected-to-death-by-cps.memory-of.com/

It's a woman's right to choice, not yours or mine.

What is your proof that abortion hurts the economy?

Peace and love

WanderingSoul

12-13-2007, 04:42 AM

Idiots who believe everyone should go about their way and do what they want do not understand the concept of government.

A government is set to rule a nation and its people.
Fuck the government.

MaximusXXX

12-14-2007, 05:42 AM

Fuck the government.
It works the other way around much better.

Lady of the Freaks

04-07-2008, 05:00 AM

there should be no restrictions on abortion. woman's choice.

OlderWaterBrother

04-07-2008, 05:28 AM

I'd just like to say that neither Eugene or MaximusXXX have the slightest clue what the Bible says.

OlderWaterBrother

04-07-2008, 06:05 AM

Let me start by saying I don’t believe my opinion should forced on anyone, because, well it’s just my opinion.

MaximusXXX asks two questions.
When should it be okay to have an abortion? My answer would be that it should only be considered under special circumstances, such as rape, incest or imminent threat to the mother’s life and that it should never be done as birth control.

How legal should abortion be? I don’t really see how a law for or against it can be applied justly. To me laws tend to be too black and white to decide something so personal. I mean should a Doctor be forced to perform an abortion even if it’s against his principles? Should a victim of rape or incest be denied an abortion if they want one? What if they live in a small town and that Doctor is the only one the victim can turn to for an abortion, whose rights should prevail?

themnax

04-07-2008, 02:29 PM

Would you apply the same rule to infanticide or to the decision to pull the plug on a dying person who always expressed a desire to be kept alive at all costs?i'd like to answer that question with a question; why (other then rather lame political conveninece) does anyone assume, that an unborn fetus, that has not yet become addicted to living, want, at any and all costs, to be born?

to me, THAT makes no logical sense.

=^^=
.../\...

MaximusXXX

04-07-2008, 08:29 PM

I'd just like to say that neither Eugene or MaximusXXX have the slightest clue what the Bible says.Okay asshole, I'm not religious and I only read religious books because of their relevance to troday's political landscape, reason why I read Bible, Quran and Gita.

I'm a Fascist, and I look at abortion on demand as a negative on society and its economy, it's not a benefit, what would be a benefit is to have better and more poulace foster homes that would have the government raising these unwanted children.

But people have to take responsibility for their actions.

MaximusXXX

04-07-2008, 08:34 PM

i'd like to answer that question with a question; why (other then rather lame political conveninece) does anyone assume, that an unborn fetus, that has not yet become addicted to living, want, at any and all costs, to be born?

to me, THAT makes no logical sense.

=^^=
.../\...This is why I'm completely for Euthanasia and against Abortion on demand.

Euthanasia is when a person has no purpose or wants to die because they feel it is their best option.

Abortion on demand is when a woman and at least half of the time ( although I think it's more ) her lover want to abort a child in progress because they either:

a) chose not to use contraceptives
b) their contraceptive failed ( use pill and condom ya idiots )
c) freak accident ( anal slip, pullout didn't work, cumshot gone wrong etc )

That to me is not enough to justify taking what could be a productive members of society in the future, away.

Finnaz

04-07-2008, 08:43 PM

I'd say if it's a special circumstance, any time, and if it isn't, up until the point when the fetus can feel pain.

OlderWaterBrother

04-08-2008, 06:13 AM

Okay asshole, I'm not religious and I only read religious books because of their relevance to troday's political landscape, reason why I read Bible, Quran and Gita.

I'm a Fascist, and I look at abortion on demand as a negative on society and its economy, it's not a benefit, what would be a benefit is to have better and more poulace foster homes that would have the government raising these unwanted children.

But people have to take responsibility for their actions.Pardon me? I post something that you basicly say is true and you call me an asshole for saying it? What do you call people that just make it up as they go along?

Lady of the Freaks

04-08-2008, 06:28 AM

b) their contraceptive failed ( use pill and condom ya idiots )not everybody can take the pill.

Eugene

05-19-2008, 12:35 AM

I'd just like to say that neither Eugene or MaximusXXX have the slightest clue what the Bible says.It's not what the bible says, it what the bible doesn't say.
it doesn't say "Don't have abortions!". Anywhere. It has rules about how to shave your beard, how to harvest your crops, how to treat your slaves, how to kill your animals, it has rules about how to deal with mestruating women (avoid them).
It has rules about pretty much every damn thing except abortion.
which means, to god, it was a non-issue.

that, and there is a LOT of baby-killing in the old testament.

and, as i already pointed out, there are rules for how to treat murderers, based on the value of the life of the victim (men are more valuable then women, grown ups more valuable than children etc), and it doesn't mention the killing of a child less than one month after birth, let alone before it.

face it, pretty much the only things passage that is even close to describing a pro-life sentiment is "I knew you in the womb". and that refers to the person god was adressing personally (king david, i think), not everyone. and even if god knew him, it doesn't mean he was alive in the womb.

themnax

05-19-2008, 02:49 PM

whenever no other way of preventing overpopulation is available, or those which are have failed to do so.

of course it shouldn't be like choosing a nail color or a lip gloss, but to assume a pregnant woman less likely to be morally responsible then a male legislator, or even a celibate priest, as an abusurdity beyond accounting.

=^^=
.../\...

Waking Life

05-19-2008, 09:31 PM

Obviously there are going to be inappropriate times to have an abortion. Don't get one while you are sitting at your sisters wedding. Don't get one while you're accepting an award etc etc. Other than that it should always be okay to have an abortion.

Your heart is free.

Finnaz

05-19-2008, 09:48 PM

I think the consensus is that at the 28th week, fetuses are able to feel pain. My own beliefs are that nothing capable of pain should have to feel it. So without a major reason (birth would kill mother, rape victim etc) then up until then, otherwise, no time limit.

OlderWaterBrother

05-20-2008, 06:20 AM

It's not what the bible says, it what the bible doesn't say.
it doesn't say "Don't have abortions!". Anywhere. It has rules about how to shave your beard, how to harvest your crops, how to treat your slaves, how to kill your animals, it has rules about how to deal with mestruating women (avoid them).
It has rules about pretty much every damn thing except abortion.
which means, to god, it was a non-issue.Yeah, and the Bible doesn't say; "don't unload an AK-47 clip into someone’s face just for fun" either but most would agree that doesn't mean that the Bible condones it or that it means that to God, it's a non-issue. It just means that the Bible has many principles that cover such things without having to go into such detail. Principles like; do onto others as you would have them do onto you, it seems to fit the bill in both cases.

and, as i already pointed out, there are rules for how to treat murderers, based on the value of the life of the victim (men are more valuable then women, grown ups more valuable than children etc), and it doesn't mention the killing of a child less than one month after birth, let alone before it.Ex. 21:22, 23 seems to mention the death of an unborn child and gives the punishment as soul for soul. This would seem to mean that God considers the life of the unborn child to be equal to the life of a grown man.

XBloodyNailPolishX

05-30-2008, 06:14 PM

as long as its in my body, its my decision what to do with it.

OlderWaterBrother

06-13-2008, 03:31 AM

Like I've said before and I'll say it again:
I'm Pro-Choice; I just think the choice should be made before conception not after!

does2

06-13-2008, 03:36 AM

never.

djulian

11-01-2008, 03:48 PM

Abortion is really two ideas:

1) A decision on if the two involved can and want to raise a child for the rest of their lives regardless of financial, medical needs, genetics, etc.

2) A decision on if the pregnant person chooses a surgical procedure or to go through a pregnancy.

For our family, we believe in choice and that if this choice is taken away we are not much more than slaves to the government. Further, to put a time limit on the abortion is difficult. Most of the time you do not even find out that you are pregnant until after a month.

On a second note:

As an educator, I see a lot of children that are in terrible situations. Neglect is common - and I teach in an affluent area. Careers and greed have taken hold of our culture and kids are sometimes a second thought. I am not promoting abortions here, I am just saying that many of us need to take the decision of having kids more seriously.

famewalk

11-01-2008, 06:31 PM

And serious means the moral value of believing we know what the government meant us to be fatally at a decision; immorally we are free to make the choice.
But I feel that love is instead seriously taken when the chance for freedom is maintained for or against the goodness of the law.

djulian

11-01-2008, 08:16 PM

famewalk

11-02-2008, 07:46 PM

.... the goodness of emphatuated Naivete. At first I said that seriousness was important, when there was more anamosity in the making.

Therefore, on the whole problem for the passed Time, pro-activity is exagerated over the birth of the child. Sex should be protected between the unmarried people. That's what you wanted to say?

Hoatzin

11-02-2008, 09:26 PM

abortion is a bunch of crazy monkeys with knives!

Abortion stole my idea for a game show? :(

Not that it's what I'd vote for*, but I'm surprised that there's no "I don't think abortion should be legal at all" option.

Like I would think most people, I would rather no-one had abortions. But it's like unemployment benefit. I'd rather the right be there for people who need it, and be abused by some, rather than take it away just because some do abuse it at the expense of those who don't.

*I'll freely admit that I know fuck all about biology, so I'm not going to presume that my opinion on when abortion occurs would be worth having even if I did have one.

missedit

05-09-2009, 12:37 AM

Abortion shouldn't be such a big issue in the world. In my opinion I'd rather a teenage girl get an abortion than bring a child into a world where no one wants it. It may be harsh but I think of all those children who get into bad habbits or those in russia who never get adopted because they're too "unsociable" to adopt because they don't get enough attention. I think the decision is up to the pregnant woman no one else, it's ultimatly HER body.

jamesrock

05-09-2009, 01:28 AM

For Rape Only

missedit

05-09-2009, 03:44 AM

For Rape Only

For rape only? (not knocking your opinion). Teenage girls that can;t handle a baby shouldn't have to carry it. I mean people make mistakes they shouldn't have to suffer a lifetime for one mistake. Two people (maybe even three at the least) will suffer from this mistake it's not 1960 anymore, a woman should be allowed to do whatever she wants with her body. Yeah abortion shouldn't be used so often but it's a woman decision and if abortion becomes illegal, our economy will get worse, crime rates will increase, homeless children will sky rocket, ect.