Does God Exist?

[Art Delfo]

It's a topic that has been done before but needs to be brought back form time to time.

So then...

Does God Exist?If god exists what his/her's/it's/thier nature?What are the implications on the rest of existance if god exists?If god does not exist what is the cause rather than god?Is there a cause in the first place?

[Bongish]

since the burden of proof lies on the one making the claim:

if you claim "yes"---prove it.

if you claim "no"--- prove it.

[Varuna]

If you play with the idea of God's existence/non-existence long enough, you may recognize your actual question is really about what it means to exist

The great mystics realize God transcends all concepts one may know about existence/non-existence.

The next question, of course, is: What else does God do (besides exist and/or not exist)?

Peace and Love

[tikoo]

why can't you just see god , what's with all this failure of perception
it might help if people who claim perception would just be quiet and give everybody else a chance

[spook13]

Yes.

He's stomping around in heaven, mad as hell at the human race that he created and continues to create on this little planet. He and Jesus are busy plotting the second coming and last judgment and tallying up the saved and unsaved, while the rest of the universe apparently takes care of itself.

[Fallout55]

First define god.
Then ill give you my opinion as I see form my life and my circumstances and nothing more.

do you mean god as an all knowing, all seeing man who lives high in the sky? Or do you mean god as an undefinabole force or connection that can paly a role larger than what we as humans have yet evolved to understand fully?

I belive there is something beyond us and i belive its palin for all of us to see, we are jsut so use to it we foret about it. i'm talking about nature here, as we all come form nauter ro atleast our shells do and we will all reurn our shells someday so that has to be something special, but there are so many ways of looking at it at so many levels nature my not be god in some sense but when your life is in nautres hands for that moment nature is god and god is life.

I hope you understand what I mena when I say on difrent levels.
your ego is god on some levels in that it causes you to act a certain way or to chose a certain path. also things like instinct, desire, and your needs are all god on difrent levels.

If you would Define what you mena by the word "god" I can tell you If i belive there is a god or not.

[OnlyOne]

only in yoh fatherfigurefixated mind.

[Varuna]

God is the ultimate reality, omni-transcendent, and therefore, undefinable.

Look and listen to the world you are in. Reality exists . . . more than you think, or feel, or believe, or experience, or want, or understand, or . . .

Recognizing and realizing the whole relationship between this ultimate reality and humanity is the original point of every religious and spiritual tradition.

Peace and Love

[OnlyOne]

duh ok, maybe baby,

[prismatism]

observation creating definite matter without judgment might be what god is.

so nobody could ever prove or disprove it...

but maybe it's something else. :).

[Art Delfo]

HowTo:Aruge for God

To prove God we must make him nessarcy. He cannot be proven with science because science is about the seen or reconizeable. Therefore you have to prove God with reason.

1.The universe is in motion
2.Any action will have an reaction,every cause has an effect
3.The Universe can only then be in motion if a first action came about
4.Only beings,things with an awarness can self motivate with out cause
5.Therefore a being, God, started the first motion. He is what you would call the Prime Mover.

Atheist:O RLY? But where did this God come from?

1.If God is first God is uncerated
2. therefore all existance would depend on God, God becomes the princple of all existance.
3.Therefore God is One with everything. The body of God is no-self. God becomes the first Buddha.

HowTo: Aruge for Atheism

1.Laws in the universe exist. These laws don't change.
2. If they do not change then they can easliy move matter becuase that is the way they are.
3.done.

So the question would be...are the laws in our universe constant?This is a science question. So yeah.Help us out science savy people.

[NightRose]

No one can prove that he does exist. No one can prove that he doesnt exist.
Each one of us has our own opinions about it. Im sticking to mine that no he doesnt exist. I tried christianity once, and the more I learnt about it, the more rediculous the whole idea became. So I have no God. Its interesting seeing everyones different opinions and beliefs, gives you something to think/talk about amongst other people. I guess in a woman of both faith and science at times where I need something to believe in. Its great having the freedom of being your own God. Try it.

[sexylilunicornbutt]

No one can prove that any sentient being exists other than one's own self, though. You can loosely believe that anyone exists, without really knowing anything about them, and have a fairly accurate idea of how much power and authority that person wields, and still be correct: Yes, they actually do exist. Just like God, you don't have to know everything about God in order to justifiably believe that God exists. Very loosely, we're talking about an enormously powerful sentient being that gives a shit about us, and we can assume that this being knows that we're attempting to refer to it.

[Varuna]

Define existence, in your own words.

[OnlyOne]

definety azz street

[soaringeagle]

does it really matter if god exists or not? existance exists and thats good enough for me

[relaxxx]

There's really 2 ideas of what God basically is. There is the popular religious belief in a conscious God who oversees, judges and grants access to heaven and eternal bliss. Then there is a more simplistic God is some force that created energy and the universe.

If one was to believe that the popular religious concept of God or God's exists then he or they must really get off in misery and destruction. Am I to believe that the creator of the universe is so selfish and egotistical to demand worship, evoke hatred in millions, and promise eternal ecstasy to those who sacrifice their lives in religious warfare?

I am 100% positive, without one single tiny doubt, that the religious God does not exist. Religion is a self destructive mental illness and a detriment to the long term health and advancement of the human race. It is an infectious social sickness that has killed and destroyed more lives than and other illness.

The other idea of God being some force that gave the universe energy and matter and whatnot is too vague of an idea to even really comment on. There was obviously some force that created energy that created matter but whatever it was I don't believe it was a conscious entity and definitely not a God in the classical definition.

God is really nothing more than a concept of man's imagination, a tool to control the masses, and a weapon to destroy other masses.

[dd3stp233]

No. A mystery is a mystery not god.

[heeh2]

1.The universe is in motion
2.Any action will have an reaction,every cause has an effect
3.The Universe can only then be in motion if a first action came about
4.Only beings,things with an awarness can self motivate with out cause
5.Therefore a being, God, started the first motion. He is what you would call the Prime Mover.

Atheist:O RLY? But where did this God come from?

1.If God is first God is uncerated
2. therefore all existance would depend on God, God becomes the princple of all existance.
3.Therefore God is One with everything. The body of God is no-self. God becomes the first Buddha.

HowTo: Aruge for Atheism

1.Laws in the universe exist. These laws don't change.
2. If they do not change then they can easliy move matter becuase that is the way they are.
3.done.

So the question would be...are the laws in our universe constant?This is a science question. So yeah.Help us out science savy people
a good idea is that
the univurse was first and its current state is its natural state, as without the interference of something unnatural to the univurse, every product of the univurse would be natural though not always good....yes?

the univurse needs no cause....no great creation or big bang to simply exist indefinitely.....as this is the most logical idea known to mankind reguarding the "creation of the univurse".....and noone but god himself can prove it wrong

[OnlyOne]

got~damn duh goverment man.

[smokindude]

Of course there is a God.

[Bongish]

Of course there is a God.
so confident with no proof whatsoever.

[scudrehab]

Prove it? Prove what? That God does truley exist? If you want proof of God, The Lord, or any other name or metaphore you may want to call him. All you have to do is.... Open your eye's.

A tree, a plant, a human, an animal nor any live or non-living organisim is explained through God.

To ask someone to prove that god exist, is like asking if water is wet, or air is breathable. It's proven itself time and time again, it's your obligation to believe or not.

Does God really exist? The answere is quite clear. Perhaps you are asking the wrong question?

God does exist. Love is real. Hate is real. And unfortunatly most of all Sin is real. Questioning God or God's love is a sin.

[themnax]

does it really matter if god exists or not? existance exists and thats good enough for me

precisely!

and what we togather make of it for each of us to experience is every bit as much the work of our doing so, whatever else may or may not also exist.

this is what we can do something about.

god or gods, if they should happen to exist, cool.
if they don't, well we'll just have to keep getting along somehow just the same.

=^^=
.../\...

[Bongish]

Prove it? Prove what? That God does truley exist? If you want proof of God, The Lord, or any other name or metaphore you may want to call him. All you have to do is.... Open your eye's. hahah. Another "tin can" explanation for the existence of the flying spaghetti monster. What does "opening one's eyes" (another tin can metaphor) have to do with proof of this imaginary god of your's existence? My eyes are open...I see no proof of the pink dragon in the garage. Until you can explain it better than "open your eyes" you might wish to try this post again.

A tree, a plant, a human, an animal nor any live or non-living organisim is explained through God.
no. A tree, plant, humans and other living or non living oraganism existence is not proof that an alien in the sky exists.

To ask someone to prove that god exist, is like asking if water is wet, or air is breathable. It's proven itself time and time again, it's your obligation to believe or not.
If you claim the existence of god, it is your obligation to prove it, not mine to believe it.

Does God really exist? The answere is quite clear. Perhaps you are asking the wrong question?
the answer is not clear at all, if it were, you wouldn't be clouding it up with " a tree is proof, a human is proof, a pile of dog shit is proof"



God does exist. so does the pink dragon in my garage.

Love is real. Hate is real.
And unfortunatly most of all Sin is real. Questioning God or God's love is a sin. apparently stupidity is real too.

roflmao @ Questioning God or God's love is a sin. that's too fucking funny.

[Benther Dondat]

It's a topic that has been done before but needs to be brought back form time to time.

So then...

Does God Exist?If god exists what his/her's/it's/thier nature?What are the implications on the rest of existance if god exists?If god does not exist what is the cause rather than god?Is there a cause in the first place?God?...the great curse of civilization...exist? You gotta be kiddin'!

[Bongish]

God?...the great curse of civilization...exist? You gotta be kiddin'!
amen!! preach it brother!! OPEN YOUR EYES!!! YOU CAN SEE, BROTHER!!!!!!!http://bushwhacked.net/bits/ROFL.jpg

[Varuna]

If you know how to think musically, then it all makes a lot more sense.

Just for the sake of argument, think of each thing that exists (a stone, a tree, a poodle, a person, time, love, thought, you, me, etc.) as a note. Now, consider a chord containing all notes. God is simply the name for this chord. What we call God is the essence of the chord, not only the notes themselves, but also, more importantly, the relationship between all of the notes. God is also the name of the composer, whose identity, like that of any other composer, is inseperable from his work.

In one way or another, this is really what all legitimate religious/spiritual authorities are actually referring to.

Peace and Love

[Benther Dondat]

If you know how to think musically, then it all makes a lot more sense.

Just for the sake of argument, think of each thing that exists (a stone, a tree, a poodle, a person, time, love, thought, you, me, etc.) as a note. Now, consider a chord containing all notes. God is simply the name for this chord. What we call God is the essence of the chord, not only the notes themselves, but also, more importantly, the relationship between all of the notes. God is also the name of the composer, whose identity, like that of any other composer, is inseperable from his work.

In one way or another, this is really what all legitimate religious/spiritual authorities are actually referring to.

Peace and LoveIf you know how to think logically, then it all makes a lot more sense.

Just for the sake of argument, think that our language is based on conceptual paradigms. Conceptual paradigms are the lenses through which we perceive reality and the very foundation of our language is based on conformity and authority.

Monotheistic religions define hierarchal bureaucracy and our government is one. The idea that there is a separation between religion and government is a joke. Jews, Moslems, Christians…all from the same mold. Monotheism is NOT passive!

In one way or another, this is really what all religious/spiritual authorities are actually referring to.

“Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” Steven Weinberg

[Bongish]

If you know how to think musically, then it all makes a lot more sense.

Just for the sake of argument, think of each thing that exists (a stone, a tree, a poodle, a person, time, love, thought, you, me, etc.) as a note. Now, consider a chord containing all notes. God is simply the name for this chord. What we call God is the essence of the chord, not only the notes themselves, but also, more importantly, the relationship between all of the notes. God is also the name of the composer, whose identity, like that of any other composer, is inseperable from his work.

In one way or another, this is really what all legitimate religious/spiritual authorities are actually referring to.

Peace and Love
the real answer to this farcical diatribe, is to ask a question based on it's sophomoric suggestion of "god as a chord" would be:

is god a C# diminished chord or a Bbm with a Maj7. To wit, I suggest god is nothing more than a pregnant 13th chord with alterations too busy to mention.

Of course, all of that means absolutely nothing which is kind of what the argument suggests. God is a chord is nothing more than god is an asshole, a moron or most importantly, an imaginary figure which man hath created in its own image to settle and control humanity.

[Bongish]

If you know how to think logically, then it all makes a lot more sense.

Just for the sake of argument, think that our language is based on conceptual paradigms. Conceptual paradigms are the lenses through which we perceive reality and the very foundation of our language is based on conformity and authority.

Monotheistic religions define hierarchal bureaucracy and our government is one. The idea that there is a separation between religion and government is a joke. Jews, Moslems, Christians…all from the same mold. Monotheism is NOT passive!

In one way or another, this is really what all religious/spiritual authorities are actually referring to.

“Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” Steven Weinberg
nowwwwww, we're getting somewhere. religion as bereaucracy---this is the essence of religion since the day man created it.

[Varuna]

If you know how to think logically, then it all makes a lot more sense.

I am all for logic. It's kind of like conceptual math. It does have its limits, however. A (hypothetically) purely logical mind is incapable, by definition, of comprehending those illogical aspects of reality such as aesthetic quality, ecstacy or mirth.

What kind of sense have you gotten from logic? What has logic taught you?

Just for the sake of argument, think that our language is based on conceptual paradigms. Conceptual paradigms are the lenses through which we perceive reality and the very foundation of our language is based on conformity and authority. To what do you conform? Which conceptual paradigms do you leave unquestioned? Why do you reject any of them?

Are there any conceptual paradigms you want to get rid of? Dharma/Torah? Moksha/T'Shuva? Samadhi/Yechida? Before you trash these "conceptual paradigms" shouldn't you experience them, look through their lenses, find out more about all of this?

Monotheistic religions define hierarchal bureaucracy and our government is one. The idea that there is a separation between religion and government is a joke. Jews, Moslems, Christians…all from the same mold. Monotheism is NOT passive! There is always far more mystery than anyone is prepared to comprehend. Some are more prepared than others, however.

I have a friend who believes unexplained lights in the sky are evidence of extraterrestrial visitors from Ceti Alpha III. He also believes that a worldwide conspiracy suppresses all public knowledge of this. Others believe that Monotheistic religions exist solely to define hierarchal bureaucracy.

Conspiracy theories arise out of an unformed desire to assign meaning to (and impose responsiblity for) an unknown that one feels powerless to examine.
Rarely, if ever, are conspiracy theories either logical or true.

In one way or another, this is really what all religious/spiritual authorities are actually referring to.

Whenever you make a statement about religion, positive or negative, you present yourself as a religious authority. You can believe whatever you think or percieve to be true, but I have every right to question why you need me to believe you.

So . . . Why should I believe you?

Peace and Love

[Any Color You Like]

I voted no, but it all depends on your define of God, which varies for each person and religion.

It also depends on your definition of existance. Do dreams exist? Do ideas exist? Do we exist? Should we care?

[Asmodean]

We can't say for sure.

Personally I think it's nature, and god is not judging us like we see in most religions. We are free to sin and destruct and disturb nature's balance and the only damnation we're gonna get is from our own. Of course, since we have a mind, can think and are able to do things apart from nature's instinct we can trick ourselves with our ideas about God and our afterlife. But we can't be sure.

All we have are eachother and we kind of messing it up, because we think there's more (personal salvation by god, but also satisfaction by wealth or power, etc.).

[Benther Dondat]

Brother Varuna, Thanks.

[/color]I am all for logic. It's kind of like conceptual math. It does have its limits, however. A (hypothetically) purely logical mind is incapable, by definition, of comprehending those illogical aspects of reality such as aesthetic quality, ecstacy or mirth.
Yes… A (hypothetically) purely logical mind is in this case is like a head sitting on a table with no arms or legs…it can think but not act.

[/color]What kind of sense have you gotten from logic? What has logic taught you?
Hmmm…logic has taught me to use the information that I know to be true to question and debate assertions that are based on faith but demands conformity.

[/color]To what do you conform? Which conceptual paradigms do you leave unquestioned? Why do you reject any of them?
The nature of human nature is Mother Nature and the mother of nature is the garden.

Reject? I try to reject only that which tells me that there is NO reject button!

[/color]Are there any conceptual paradigms you want to get rid of? Dharma/Torah? Moksha/T'Shuva? Samadhi/Yechida? Before you trash these "conceptual paradigms" shouldn't you experience them, look through their lenses, find out more about all of this?
(hypothetically) a conceptual paradigm is like a book in the library that you are free to choose. In reality the Monotheistic (perceptual) paradigm insinuates imperialistic conformity creating a bureaucracy of Pit Bull Bible Thumpers more than willing to break down your door to demand conformity. No…it’s not the book…it’s the imperialistic behavior that it incites. Take the imperialism out of monotheism and it becomes just another book on the shelf or in my case in the bathroom.

[/color]There is always far more mystery than anyone is prepared to comprehend. Some are more prepared than others, however.
Yes…from the darkness comes the light. I love the darkness!

I have a friend who believes unexplained lights in the sky are evidence of extraterrestrial visitors from Ceti Alpha III. He also believes that a worldwide conspiracy suppresses all public knowledge of this. Others believe that Monotheistic religions exist solely to define hierarchal bureaucracy. [/color]
No…Monotheistic religions exist to:

· define hierarchal bureaucracy

· demand conformity

· legitimize authority

· enslave the mind

· empower the priests and judges

· etc…

Conspiracy theories arise out of an unformed desire to assign meaning to (and impose responsibility for) an unknown that one feels powerless to examine. [/color]

Rarely, if ever, are conspiracy theories either logical or true.

Yep! I’d put Monotheism at the top of that conspiracy list.

[/color]

Whenever you make a statement about religion, positive or negative, you present yourself as a religious authority. You can believe whatever you think or perceive to be true, but I have every right to question why you need me to believe you.

No…Be clear…I am no religious authority. I have no authority. I do have my truth as you do yours.

I am a wondering soul casting off my veil…I’ve found a beautiful oasis and I’m just letting everybody know that the water is outstanding.

My message is to trust your intuition and you will know right and wrong!

[/color]
So . . . Why should I believe you? Peace and Love

You should not!

“Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.” Buddha (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/b/buddha122706.html)

[Varuna]

Dear Benther Dondat,

Thank You.

For all it may be worth, I think you are quite right to refuse the ignorance, intolerance, baseless hatred and destruction found within the big, Western, monotheistic religions. Ideally, those things aren't supposed to have anything to do with the tradition. In fact, that was exactly the problem each one of the prophets sacrificed his/her life to correct.

But the Judeo-Christian-Muslim tradition is such a deeply ingrained part of the human story that it is virtually impossible to know the complete scope of its influence on the Western paradigm. For example, the fact that you refuse to accept what you perceive (right or wrong) to be an evil IS, arguably, as much an expression of this tradition as a Seder or an Easter Mass.

I find it somewhat enigmatic and perplexing that no one knows enough or is wise enough to say with any real authority which of our conceptual paradigms are directly attributable (positively or negatively) to the Judeo-Christian-Muslim tradition. You may be surprised, however, to know that most of the really big players had exactly the same concerns about this stuff as you do. If you read the stories of Moses, Jesus, Muhammed, Buddha, Lao Tsu, Martin Luther, Guru Nanak, all of them rebelled (creatively of course) against the ways religion, and its followers, were being abused.

Now, of course, anything as big as religion is going to cast a shadow somewhere. And as is the case in any institution, there are those whose contribution is a low quality representation of the ideal. I don't know why, but there seems to be a trend lately of defining things and people by their worst. I would like to see that change.

I wouldn't define Rock and Roll by the music of Air Supply or Michael Bolton, not when we had the Beatles, Jimi Hendrix, Yes, Led Zeppelin, The Clash, XTC, The Replacements, Nirvana, etc.

I wouldn't define America by the words and actions of Duh-bya, not when we've had Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Mark Twain, Abraham Lincoln, John Steinbeck, The Marx Brothers, Louis Armstrong, Neil Armstrong, Lance Armstrong, etc.

I wouldn't define religion by the words and actions of Jerry Falwell, Osama Bin Laden or Torquemada, not when we have Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., Gandhi, The Dalai Lama, Rebbe Manachem Mendel Schneerson, J. Krishnamurti, Amma . . . to mention a few from just the past century.

It may be a worthwile to question what others have done with their inspiration. But the equally important question is: What are you doing with yours? What do you think is sacred and what are you doing about it?

Whatever your beliefs happen to be, how enlightened are you in your observance and practice of your religion (regardless of what you call it)?

To return to the musical analogy, the question that matters most is: Regardless of your love or your hate or your indifference for others' music, what is YOUR song?

Peace and Love

[Asmodean]

Dude, well put. :)

[Benther Dondat]

...what is YOUR song?

Peace and LoveBrother Varuna,

...the lyrical dance of the seasons, tides, heartbeat…in rhythmic harmony with the words of peace, love and happiness.

The profound dilemma of the western mind is that the path to enlightenment is not a journey but a realization. Language is the way that we as human beings communicate, collaborate, compete and on and on and Monotheism is the bed rock foundation of all jewish-christian-muslim faiths. Monotheism is the bedrock foundation of the English language. Monotheism defines a hierarchal bureaucracy and our government is one. There is NO separation between church and state!!! The church IS the state. And you and I are pawns and priests of imperialistic capitalism.

There is no separation except in our collective perception.

The original sin is the idea that you and are in reality separate from each other and the garden. If you embrace god…you’re fucked and if you don’t embrace god you’re fucked. Once culture is programmed to the delusion of the egocentric self …we now have “I’s” that cannot see the obvious. Wholy becomes holy. We become you and I, our earth becomes yours and mine. Mind is programmed in a way in which we are unable to calmly question the relevance of God. We cannot realize because we do not have “I’s” that can see our spiritual communion with nature or each other.

I hold the monotheistic perceptual paradigm responsible for the entranced enslavement of the human mind. The common defining foundation of the Jewish, Christian, and Muslim religion is NOT the One god but the profoundly significant infusion of the abstract authority commonly referred to as the “put no other god before me” clause.

It’s here that I see a crack in traditional logic although it makes perfect sense in the “traditional” way we think…I don’t see the top down hierarchal authoritarian mindset as workable. In our culture today I am convinced that we are witness to the natural death of god and frankly believe that we should be celebrating. Every day that we continue to attach life support to a brain dead corpse is another day of imperialistic capitalism and environmental and spiritual degradation. .

God is dead! And I’m not sure if he has ever been more than a corrupt illusion of a deluded mindset.

It’s time to put the "privileged" money changers at the temple gate to work…honest work…tending to nature, community and our spiritual salvation. It’s time for our CEO’s, priest, judges, intellectuals, teachers, police, politicians, bureaucrats, technocrats and you and me to stop polluting this wondrous earth and to start teaching our kids how to be good, honest, hard working, compassionate, empathetic and peace loving citizens.

How complicated is it to want a government that promotes honesty, a spiritual balance with nature, self sufficiency, hard work, love of community and the sacredness of life? The irony is that it is the intellectuals that have conspired, colluded and schemed to manipulate the working class by corrupting our spiritual, educational and social institutions. (The intellectuals are pissing in our beds because they are to damn lazy and corrupt to compost.)

One could argue that when our intellectual elites start getting their just dues that our capitalistic markets will be dealing with an overabundance of tar and feathers.

The only way we are going to clean this planet and ourselves up is from the bottom up!

We the people!

The good man is the friend of all living things. M. Gandhi (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/m/mohandasga125863.html)

[Asmodean]

It’s time to put the "privileged" money changers at the temple gate to work…honest work…tending to nature, community and our spiritual salvation. It’s time for our CEO’s, priest, judges, intellectuals, teachers, police, politicians, bureaucrats, technocrats and you and me to stop polluting this wondrous earth and to start teaching our kids how to be good, honest, hard working, compassionate, empathetic and peace loving citizens.

I admit that it sounds good indeed, but I don't see how we (the people) can put the 'money changers' to honest work. What if they don't want to? We don't want to force them, or do we?


How complicated is it to want a government that promotes honesty, a spiritual balance with nature, self sufficiency, hard work, love of community and the sacredness of life? The irony is that it is the intellectuals that have conspired, colluded and schemed to manipulate the working class by corrupting our spiritual, educational and social institutions. (The intellectuals are pissing in our beds because they are to damn lazy and corrupt to compost.)


Like Varuna pointed out, almost everything has two sides. I don't know if you mean intellectuals literally, though?

[Benther Dondat]

I admit that it sounds good indeed, but I don't see how we (the people) can put the 'money changers' to honest work. What if they don't want to? We don't want to force them, or do we?
Like Varuna pointed out, almost everything has two sides. I don't know if you mean intellectuals literally, though?Brother Asmodean,

It seems our paths do intertwine!

You’re right…to imply dominance is to revert back to the subconscious zombie drone chant. I can put out a fire but I can’t put anyone to work.

In a profound sense we are the money changers. We are all in this together.
The money changers have no more inherent power then the poorest of the poor. The irony is that we are all rich beyond belief. As long as we-the-people feed the lie…dominance lives…The king has no clothes! The transformation has begun. As We-the-people change then they (we) have NO choice! The irony is that they is we-the-people. If human kind made a pact to be honest and responsible we would celebrate with every breath our wondrous good fortune.

We are children of the garden. Mother Nature feeds us, shelters us, we are the water we drink and the air we breathe

Literal intellectual…I suppose here too I exaggerate a bit. No…I’m referring to intellectuals that exalt their own superiority…dominance.

What do I think of Western civilization? I think it would be a very good idea. M. Gandhi

[Varuna]

Literal intellectual…I suppose here too I exaggerate a bit. No…I’m referring to intellectuals that exalt their own superiority…dominance.

Could I suggest that you are not anti-intellectual, but anti-egotism?

Peace and Love

[Benther Dondat]

Brother Varuna,

Is an anti-intellectual someone that can hear the sound of one hand clapping?

As for egotism...if that is defined as the mind's I of self then I am probably not anti that either.

[Art Delfo]

It seems alot of people don't like to use the term god because for some strange reason they associate the terms soley with a sky daddy type of being. I wonder why?

[sejtzu]

Well I can't answer the poll because there is no option for me to choose.

There is the The Theist, The Agnostic and The Atheist - the Tdaoist is in fact the answer to this age old argument.

[Bongish]

the Tdaoist is in fact the answer to this age old argument.
and with that, ladies and gents, sejtzu resets Taoism to the beginning. For the first lesson of Taoism teaches us: "The tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao." Therefore, the Tao cannot be the answer to whethter or not god exists.

so, bzzzzzzzzzzz...wrong again!!

[sejtzu]

and with that, ladies and gents, sejtzu resets Taoism to the beginning. For the first lesson of Taoism teaches us: "The tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao." Therefore, the Tao cannot be the answer to whethter or not god exists.

so, bzzzzzzzzzzz...wrong again!!Depends on your point of view, my friend. The atheist would argue that: if love creates and evil destroys then there cannot be a God, for God would be all supremely powerful and posess the ability to overthrow the fallen angel, thus the world would be a different place if there was a God.

Indeed, mental illness is what strikes me as irrefutable proof of the non existence of a supremely all powerful and decisive creator. The theist would argue that perhaps without light there is no darkness and so without some pain there is no understanding of what is good. Indeed, I would agree to some extent there, but at the end of the day, the design of the human mind is not the product of an all loving creator. To explain, the mind operates via chemicals and communicators, any of which could go wrong at any time. Perfectly healthy people can and have been known to develop a chemical imbalance which leaves them suffering from schizophrenia and all kinds of torturous experiences. To me, this is a little below the belt and only proof that God does not exist.

As I said, I agree to some extent that there is no darkness without light, I am a Tdaoist and therefore take the law of Tdao to be the supremely powerful force in our universe. But what many people who are unfamiliar with Tdaoism misunderstand is that the law of Yin and Yang actualy has nothing to do with an all powerful "decisive" creator...

(... taken from www.hm/simonedwardjepps.com (http://www.hm/simonedwardjepps.com) ... )

Indeed, you argue that the existence of god cannot be proved either way and so this age old argument continues.... but what I am trying to introduce is Tdao, which is a completely different concept to that of a "decisive" creator (decisive meaning one who can decide what the world will be like before he creates it) and thus harmonising the entire argument with the sound of one hand clapping.

[Bongish]

the tao does not prove nor disprove the existence of a god.

If you try to use the Tao to answer such a query, you know not of the eternal Tao.

[sejtzu]

Indeed you argue it does not- but the point of my post was merely to introduce an alternative train of thought which solves the need for argument.

The Tdao is instead, a compromise, which if we all accepted we would all get along better.

If you cannot see that the Tdao is a just compromise then it is you who does not know of the eternal Tao.

[Bongish]

Indeed you argue it does not- but the point of my post was merely to introduce an alternative train of thought which solves the need for argument.

The Tdao is instead, a compromise, which if we all accepted we would all get along better.

If you cannot see that the Tdao is a just compromise then it is you who does not know of the eternal Tao.
how does "- the Tdaoist is in fact the answer to this age old argument." solve the need for argument.

you're not a Taoist. You're not even close.

[sejtzu]

Well, we both agree that we are unable to prove the existence or non existence of god - therefore this conversation is pointless.. agreed?

So - what I am explaining is that seeing this conversation is pointless, why not learn of the compromise which quenches the thirst.

Do not acuse me of being anything else.

[Bongish]

telling us that being a taoist solves the need for argument IS pointless, agreed???

how is that a compromise? just admit your first post is as pointless as someone saying "god exists" and be done with it.

do not accuse me of anything else.

[sejtzu]

If you try to use the Tao to answer such a query, you know not of the eternal Tao.

Coming from one who has supposedly read all about Tdaoism, I am suprised that you wish for this argument to continue and discourage the learning of such a beautiful philosophy.

I am being kind in suggesting something that will indeed help the Agnostic or troubled one with such a dilema.

Forgive me, but these forums encourage free speech (I noticed a Taoism forum too, which is why I joined), so if you believe that it is YOU who knows of the eternal Tdao, might I suggest you encourage people to learn of it too?

[Bongish]

if you claim to know, you don't know. 1st rule of the Tao.

you made two claims including that one that you are a Taoist. I never made such a claim. Stop accusing me.

free speech is free.

[sejtzu]

if you claim to know, you don't know. 1st rule of the Tao.Indeed, but then why did Lao Tzu write his book? = For the same reason I am suggesting you read it (or the Zhuangzi which I personaly prefer).

Incidently, Tdao and God are two completely different things. "God" is a supremely all powerful and decisive creator, which is worshiped, whereas Tdao is not. Tdao is instead the supreme creational principle and continuum of the universe.

Therefore, I am not intending to give an answer to this argument with a "yes" or "no", I am merely presenting something else, which is far more enjoyable than arguing the existence of "invisible pink unicorns".

[stvt32]

One quote I remember is from A Jewish scholar named Rambam who said something along the lines of "You can't say what God is, but rather, only, what he is not." I feel that my beliefs are somewhat bias due to my knowledge of the brain and God. Before that knowledge I always thought of God, not as a "sky daddy" but rather something that just connected us all.

[Chodpa]

I see God.

[Bongish]

I see stupid people.

[Asmodean]

I see god in stupid people.

[crud3w4re]

No, "god" is the imaginary friend of the human adult.

[Bongish]

No, "god" is the imaginary friend of the human adult.
calling them human is offering a lot of credit!

[Autentique]

No, "god" is the imaginary friend of the human adult.
that's what I always say.

[Varuna]

Please consider this idea. Both Atheism and Theism are expressions of biases.

For the Atheist, sensory information (or a reliable report of sensory information) is the only acceptable proof for existence of anything. This means existence is ultimately reduced to those things that can delivered to the senses, things that can be seen, heard, touched, tasted or smelled, you know, the physical universe. According to the Atheistic view, all phenomena and all relationships between "things" are nothing more than the natural by-products of a purely physical universe.

For the Theist, existence can and does extend beyond the physical universe. According to the Theistic view, the truest reality is not immediately apparent to the senses. This Metaphysical reality that exists beyond the realm of the senses is, ultimately, undefinable, and is the primal existence from which all else originates. It simply cannot be measured in terms of time and space.

The problem, of course, is the belief that reality is defined, exclusively, by either one or the other of these two understandings.

Peace and Love

[Bongish]

Please consider this idea. Both Atheism and Theism are expressions of biases. ok, I'll consider it... (lol)


For the Theist, existence can and does extend beyond the physical universe. let us imagine life "beyond the pyhisical universe". Believing in little green men with long faces, or big giant brains pertruding from their foreheads...yes, existence in the "beyond" is fun for imagination, but has no place in our existence in the "yond".


According to the Theistic view, the truest reality is not immediately apparent to the senses. Like the Easter Bunny, perhaps?

This Metaphysical reality Bzzzzzzzzzz. No such animal. "meta"physical means "beyond" or "above" the physical. It is NOT reality. It is, as my beloved Penn & Teller say, "BULLSHIT!"

that exists beyond the realm of the senses is, ultimately, undefinable, and is the primal existence from which all else originates. It simply cannot be measured in terms of time and space. If it "cannot be measured in terms of time and space, it by definition, CANNOT be the "primal existence from which all else originates", simply because you're talking about "IMAGINARY" things. Just by you (or anyone) saying it is so, does not make it so---it does however, make it quite a shiny stinky pile of BULLSHIT.

The problem, of course, is the belief that reality is defined, exclusively, by either one or the other of these two understandings.
no. not a problem. We live in the here and now, the "metaphisical world" you claim to be "the primal existence from which..blah blah blah..." has no basis in the physical world, does not provide nor imply (even an iota) of proof of its existence, or for that matter reality, and is inherently a falacy. One which people love to cling to like the local Elvis sightings or (as we have seen recently) the multitude of Anna-Nicole Smith suitors claiming to be her daughter's father.

Peace and Loveback atcha.

[Varuna]

Please consider this idea. Both Atheism and Theism are expressions of biases.

ok, I'll consider it... (lol) Thanks, you are very kind.



For the Theist, existence can and does extend beyond the physical universe.
let us imagine life "beyond the pyhisical universe". Believing in little green men with long faces, or big giant brains pertruding from their foreheads...yes, existence in the "beyond" is fun for imagination, but has no place in our existence in the "yond". If that's what YOU imagine, then fine, have fun with it. But we weren't discussing "little green men."

In a roundabout way, you illustrate my point exactly. The idea there may be something that the senses and thoughts do not account for is simply unacceptable to the mind bounded by the physical universe. This mind has to create some kind of imaginary sensory representation for whatever abstract reality we may be discussing. However fanciful the image may be, it is really a surrogate for the missing sensory information you feel you need for something to be "real."

An inaccurate image obscures, or at least, says nothing worthwhile about the reality it claims to represent. But, you and I are not debating the veracity of your imagination. This is not a personal attack, we simply are not talking about the contents of your imagination.

And yes, I celebrate the existence of the physical universe. I am simply trying to realize an idea that there is more to existence than things made of atoms. What happens with these atoms is just as real as the atoms themselves. The space between these atoms is just as real as the atoms themselves. All of the relationships between these atoms are just as real as the atoms themselves.


According to the Theistic view, the truest reality is not immediately apparent to the senses.
Like the Easter Bunny, perhaps? The Easter Bunny? Is that really what you think the ultimate reality is?


This Metaphysical reality . . .
Bzzzzzzzzzz. No such animal. "meta"physical means "beyond" or "above" the physical. It is NOT reality. It is, as my beloved Penn & Teller say, "BULLSHIT!"
. . . that exists beyond the realm of the senses is, ultimately, undefinable, and is the primal existence from which all else originates. It simply cannot be measured in terms of time and space.
If it "cannot be measured in terms of time and space, it by definition, CANNOT be the "primal existence from which all else originates", simply because you're talking about "IMAGINARY" things. Just by you (or anyone) saying it is so, does not make it so---it does however, make it quite a shiny stinky pile of BULLSHIT. Meaning is metaphysical.

Does meaning have any physical reality? What is its flavor? Does it have visual, aural, tactile, olfactory reality at all? Does meaning itself exist? Or, is meaning itself bullshit? If so, then why bother? Why not reject meaning, embrace meaninglessness? The meaning of your words, why should I consider it (assuming it exists)?


The problem, of course, is the belief that reality is defined, exclusively, by either one or the other of these two understandings.
no. not a problem. We live in the here and now, the "metaphisical world" you claim to be "the primal existence from which..blah blah blah..." has no basis in the physical world, Yeah, imagine that.

does not provide nor imply (even an iota) of proof of its existence, or for that matter reality, and is inherently a falacy. What would you accept as "proof?" Where do you draw a distinction between existence and non-existence?

If, as you say, the non-existence of anything is an inherent fallacy, then is there no such thing as non-existence? In that case, what are you talking about?

One which people love to cling to like the local Elvis sightings or (as we have seen recently) the multitude of Anna-Nicole Smith suitors claiming to be her daughter's father. Metaphysics, the paternity of Anna Nicole Smith's baby and Elvis sightings . . . I am sure there is a connection . . . but . . . what is the connection?


Peace and Love
back atcha. Thank you.

Peace and Love

[Posthumous]

This poll is bogus. We are all gods.

[NightRose]

This poll is bogus. We are all gods.

The more I hear about this thing called God, the more foolish the whole thing sounds. :D
Im not a profit, nor do I know what happens when we die, or if there is a "creator", but I am 100% sure that there is no one out there who descides our fate for us, and nor is our fate sealed by God.

[crud3w4re]

that's what I always say.Good. What else do you always say? ;) ha

[Varuna]

The more I hear about this thing called God, the more foolish the whole thing sounds. http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif The thing is, everyone believes SOMETHING is sacred. It may be reason/meaning/knowledge, love, family, peace, sanity, creativity, written words, or even sex, drugs and rock and roll, it could be almost anything. I am sure you have your own set of goods, but whatever those things are, everyone, no matter how hardened, believes something exists that IS sacred.

But what if God is just the name for that sense of the sacred. What if, instead of this name, you substitute some specific example of the sacred. "The more I hear about this thing called (Peace, Love, Meaning, Creativity, Idealism, etc.) . . . " then the divine may begin to sound a little more meaningful and a lot less foolish.

Because God transcends all things, as any true mystic will tell you, God is, ultimately, undefinable. For many, it is difficult to find meaning in the undefinable, with anything whose meaning is not immediately apparent. But, of course, meaning certainly exists even when no one is aware of it. Ironically, it is this very same reverence for well-known meaning that hinders a greater experience of meaning.

Peace and Love

[paintballer687]

The thing is, everyone believes SOMETHING is sacred. It may be reason/meaning/knowledge, love, family, peace, sanity, creativity, written words, or even sex, drugs and rock and roll, it could be almost anything. I am sure you have your own set of goods, but whatever those things are, everyone, no matter how hardened, believes something exists that IS sacred.
Not nihilists. ;)

[crud3w4re]

The bible would be nice if it used "god" as a symbol, instead of a deity. There is no GOD! Believing in "higher power" is low on the scale of common sense evolution.

[themnax]

the limits, if any, of what can exist cannot be known, and thus the total exclusion of the possible existence of almost anything makes very little sense. as does the notion, make equally little sense, that anything has to.

so i have to say: yes, one god CAN exist, zillions of gods CAN exist, and yes, even the nonexistence of any sort of a god at all, CAN exist also.

and does it have to have/be any sort of "higher authority" for something big, friendly and nontangable to exist? i fail to see how or why.

i believe something very mysterious does exist. exist and wish us no harm.

i also believe no existence of anything, alters the reality that it remains up to us, to avoid screwing everything up for each other.

=^^=
.../\...

whatever god or gods do exist,
are whatever it is that they are.
(and that generaly and gloriously unknown)

the "christian" "bible" ... IS .. just ... one ... effing ... book.

period.

=^^=
.../\...

[crud3w4re]

We never saw any "gods", so there's no reason to believe they exist.

[dragonangelbiker]

okay, if god exists and god created us all,who created god?

[Asmodean]

God itself.

I cannot see god differently then as a undefinable force, which doesn't judge. It's not a person or creature, but maybe just (a part of) nature. We just don't know for sure, so I don't exactly get why people force their ideas wether he does or doesn't exist on others.

[Bongish]

God itself.

I cannot see god differently then as a undefinable force, which doesn't judge. It's not a person or creature, but maybe just (a part of) nature. We just don't know for sure, so I don't exactly get why people force their ideas wether he does or doesn't exist on others.so, "we just don't know for sure," yet you assuredly claimed that "god itself" created god?

how silly.

[Asmodean]

I don't know what god is, so I'm not claiming anything. I don't think it's created by a person or creature though, and I also don't think humans are.

[Bongish]

I don't know what god is, so I'm not claiming anything. I don't think it's created by a person or creature though, and I also don't think humans are.claim#1 (in answer to the question "who created god")
God itself.
claim #2

It's not a person or creatureclaim #2

We just don't know for sure
for someone who says they're not claiming anything, you make some claims that don't mean anything.

where is your proof that "god created god"???

[heeh2]

if you would all just employ a spec of critical thinking.....

you would be agnostic

a lil unbias humor for ya

[eightysixed]

Has God himself already voted here? If so, what's been his choice?

[brainstew]

I think he does

[Asmodean]

claim#1 (in answer to the question "who created god")
claim #2
claim #2
for someone who says they're not claiming anything, you make some claims that don't mean anything.

where is your proof that "god created god"???
Yeah. I don't know if you're bored or trying to act clever, but I ment of course that I didn't ment that claim about god created god to be serious, not that I never claim something, 'cause everybody does, righteous or not. I also already pointed out that I (and anybody else) can't know for sure and thus have no proof about what god is and what created it him.

[Maryslittlebrat]

I can't prove it but I see God

peace

[Bongish]

I can't prove it but I see God

peace
another brilliant quote for the archives.

[Libertine]

Nah.

[eightysixed]

I can't prove it but I see GodBut surely you can present us a description; please, do it.

[Maryslittlebrat]

That's the point, it's not something that can be described or proven nor do I say I am right. It's like love, you can't really put it into words but why insult me?
It's not a lack of intellect on my part or that isn't the issue lol
I've just always been able to see and was looking for others
sure, maybe I'm just nutz but thats fun too :)
peace
God bless

[Libertine]

I'd say either :

a) You're lying.
b) You're deceived in some way or deceiving yourself.
c) You're schizophrenic.

[eightysixed]

Maryslittlebrat, I am very sorry it sounded rude, but I had no intention to insult you. I’ve thought you experience actual seeing. Anyway, as for me, I am interested in any description of the process you can place here, and, surely, I am perfectly aware of the difficulties of that.

[eightysixed]

c) You're schizophrenic.You know, some psychiatrists now say that if we treat schizophrenics as the sick, we must treat almost all the other members of humanity as the incurable.

Certainly, there is a question if those psychiatrists are schizophrenics themselves or not http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Pooka]

Lots of them exist....

[kar33m]

Prove it? Prove what? That God does truley exist? If you want proof of God, The Lord, or any other name or metaphore you may want to call him. All you have to do is.... Open your eye's.

A tree, a plant, a human, an animal nor any live or non-living organisim is explained through God.

To ask someone to prove that god exist, is like asking if water is wet, or air is breathable. It's proven itself time and time again, it's your obligation to believe or not.

Does God really exist? The answere is quite clear. Perhaps you are asking the wrong question?

God does exist. Love is real. Hate is real. And unfortunatly most of all Sin is real. Questioning God or God's love is a sin.when you are brainwashed since childhood, you have no choice but to believe. I am sorry for you :(

[3DJay]

1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.


1 Corinthians 13
Love
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Does not delight in evil: God creates an evil being, that lead Adam and Eve astray. God knew this would happen, beforehand, but still did it and punished all mankind with death (mortality), and eternal curses.

Rejoices with the truth: He quite possibly made it impossible to prove he exists, and made a universe that appears to be able to operate, on its own, and an earth that appears billions of years old, then gave man a questioning mind. Then he punishes those who question his existence, for all eternity.

Patience: Adam and Eve, make 1 mistake. God sentences mankind to death (mortality), and curses all involved, forever.

Not easily angered: Within about 1500 years, from man's creation, God is fed up. 1500 years equates to no time, to an eternal being. God wipes out the entire planet, except for one family.

Kind: Wants you to stone to death... rebellious children; those who pick up sticks on Sunday; those who touch Mt. Sinai; those who curse the king; those who commit adultery; women who aren't virgins on their wedding night; women who get raped in the city, but don't yell loud enough; those who take accursed things; those who worship other gods (that he says don't exist); those who preach the religion of other gods (that he says don't exist); those who blaspheme; those who are witches

Always protects: Wants you to beat the law into your children, with a rod.

Not self-seeking: "You shall have no other gods before me."

Does not envy: "For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God."

Always trusts: Couldn't trust the old, women, and children, from other cultures. Had them all slaughtered.

Does not boast: "But be sure to fear the LORD and serve him faithfully with all your heart; consider what great things he has done for you."

Not rude: Seriously, if I was sitting down for supper, minding my own business, and just then, the city was destroyed by God, or attacked by the followers of God, I'd think that a little rude.

Always hopes: What does God need to hope for?

Always perseveres: Killed all the baby seals, puppies, and bunnies, on the entire planet, except a few who could fit on a boat.

Not proud: Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil." ...Run Job Run! God is proud of you!

Keeps no records of wrongs: Yeah, right.


1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.


Peace

[Krsna Bhakti]

I remember the day when I realized God. A complete sense of love and awareness overwhelming, bringing me to tears. Perhaps I should create a thread describing the experience in full detail sometime :)

[Varuna]

I remember the day when I realized God. A complete sense of love and awareness overwhelming, bringing me to tears. Perhaps I should create a thread describing the experience in full detail sometime :)
Yes, Please do!!!

[Krsna Bhakti]

Yes, Please do!!!Ok, I will tonight then, Im at work right now but I just got a new home and the internet is getting turned on today, so, I should be able to free some time up and make this thread :) I have to warn you though, I had read the Bhagavad Gita before this happened but I didnt follow it at all at the point, so my story is simply personal, emotions and my perspective, I was just overwhelmed and in love, ok I'll save it for the thread haha. Looking forward to writing it :)

[ItzJessI3itch]

It's a topic that has been done before but needs to be brought back form time to time.

So then...

Does God Exist?If god exists what his/her's/it's/thier nature?What are the implications on the rest of existance if god exists?If god does not exist what is the cause rather than god?Is there a cause in the first place?


For a long time I was Christian... but when I reached around the age 14 I had this same question. I want to believe there is something greater then this world but it's really hard to believe with so much contraversy. I've always kinda believed in karma and things like that... and that's what has brought me into looking more into Buddism... but I find it really hard to follow and learn so far.. but what I have read and looked into I've become closer to believing in the things that I have looked into... more then any other religion I have looked into.

[mandell]

My God
(Jethro Tull)

"People - what have you done
locked Him in His golden cage.
Made Him bend to your religion
Him resurrected from the grave.

He is the god of nothing
if that's all that you can see.
You are the god of everything
He's inside you and me..."


http://a2.vox.com/6a00c2251f09768e1d00c2251f0922f219-500pi

[Moon_Beam]

I used to be/still am a christian and I do believe in God. However over the past few weeks I started to feel that for God to love me I needed to change most things about myself. I finally actualy quite like who I am so the idea of having to change it all to suit someone/ something is something that I don't know if I am prepared to do at the moment!


I don't know if this is because of what other christians say you should be or whether it's just me! Has any one else felt like that?

[mandell]

Hindus believe God reveals itself in innumerable ways...
In the Bhagavad Gita, the Supreme, Krishna or Brahman or the supreme controller... whatever name you call it, is the greatest of all.

Truth is one, the wise call it in many different ways.
- Rig Veda

[heeh2]

when you are brainwashed since childhood, you have no choice but to believe.


a nice quote for those who didnt pick their religion

[themnax]

do i believe in believing in? no; i simply do not believe in rejecting possibilities out of hand.
this isn't a reason to believe anyone knows their ass from a hole in the ground about it.
but it certainly isn't any kind of a reason to reject the possibility out of hand either.

i do believe there are more interesting and pertinent questions however.
and the question of belief is in many ways a distraction from them.

such as do we want to continue to exist, humanity, as a species.
and if so, are we willing, both individualy and collectively,
to do what it is going to take to do so?

i believe there may be a god. that there is almost certainly something that some
would call a god and others might not.

but i really do believe that whatever the status of its existence. or their's as the case might be. there ARE certain things it/they HAVE left up to us.

predominant among them in my mind, is that we all have to live in a world,
that is neither more nor less firetruck'd up, then our collective thoughtlessness makes it.
that is no more miserable nor gratifying the our priorities we actualy live by,
collectively defacto create markets for it to be.

our invisible friends are good friends to have too.

these are just two seperate things.

=^^=
.../\...