Permit or No Permit-A Poll

[hippiestead]

Well, I was glancing around Rainbow Cyberland today & noticed that the Florida Council page had a note saying there would be "A meeting of an as-yet formed group without long-standing opposition to signing permits will convene shortly after vision council. "

So....how many folks are there that don't have a long-standing opposition to signing permits? Let's put it to a good ole HipForums poll vote.

[wootier]

f...u...c...k permits...theres a million reasons

[hippiestead]

f...u...c...k permits...theres a million reasonsYup, :applause:

[Gyva02]

No way, one by one our rights are being plucked away...

[barter mama]

A permit does not a gathering make. I really don't care if there's a permit or not, but having them sign the permit definitely seems fishy.

[nutznfl]

What!! We have rights ?? :hysterica

[poorphucker]

Where is the "who cares.... a few rainbow big whigs will do what they want anyways, and not care what the majority of people want" option?

[Gyva02]

http://www.hipgallery.com/photopost2/data/500/freedom.jpg

[tikoo]

the permit forms are mostly fill-in-the-blank , permit conditions are negotiatiable . since the annual florida family gathering has made a relationship with the ocala national forest 'traditional' , it would seem their negotiation with the FS has likewise evolved .

[hippiestead]

Where is the "who cares.... a few rainbow big whigs will do what they want anyways, and not care what the majority of people want" option?
I would edit the poll to include your option but couldn't find a way to edit the poll

of course it would help a lot if the majority would stand up in unity...

[GypsiJoJo]

The one about the paper work was funny..

We have not ever signed a permit, there really is need to, its our right. If we sign it, we're pretty much signing away the gathering to their control, signing away our freedom. People go to the gathering to get away from authority, away from the guns, the hatred.... Who knows what a simple "signing of the permit" could do to our gatherings in the future..

[GypsiJoJo]

The one about the paper work was funny..

We have not ever signed a permit, there really is no need to, its our right. If we sign it, we're pretty much signing away the gathering to their control, signing away our freedom. People go to the gathering to get away from authority, away from the guns, the hatred.... Who knows what a simple "signing of the permit" could do to our gatherings in the future..

[hippiestead]

The one about the paper work was funny..

We have not ever signed a permit, there really is need to, its our right. If we sign it, we're pretty much signing away the gathering to their control, signing away our freedom. People go to the gathering to get away from authority, away from the guns, the hatred.... Who knows what a simple "signing of the permit" could do to our gatherings in the future..
:) I figured the paperwork option was a good prankster vote...we used to joke at the kitchen that if any of us got a ticket we'd say 'Thank you sir, may I have another.'


Sis, go look at the legal pages on Welcome Home, permits have been signed before..sad but true

[peaceful]

I like this poll. There could be more options, but i think it will show that no-one is pro-permit, but that some people are more against it than others. Some people can't understand this simple idea.

[tikoo]

when the land use is uncontested by commercial interests there ain't a problem . sometimes spirit leads us into conflict , and always we win . however , we don't need to institutionalize ranbO as the chronic heroic adversary and rather just be open to spirit and be up for anything . so why it don't matter if some anybody signs a permit ... because all in peace .

[Bumble]

We have the right to peacefully gather according to our "constitution," so fuck signing any permit!

[Gyva02]

that is exactly 100% right.... ha ha....

[evidread]

sign away your rights? i have nothing to say!

[soaringeagle]

Individual Permits...if the FS wants paperwork let's help 'em out, everyone ask for a permit for themselves as individuals

a mountain of signed permits is just more trees the forresst service protected from our despicable environmental impacthttp://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[salmon4me]

I think that if a middle ground is not found soon, then gatherings are nearing extinction. The road block incident last year will stay in the minds of the officers, officials and FS personel for a long, long time.
Is signing the permit the first steo toward finding that middle ground? Probably not. However, nobody has ever been able to explain what exactly they would be signing away. What are the top concerns that signing a permit would bring to your mind?

[wootier]

ure signing a peace of paper that says u need permission to gather on a peice of public land... its pretty much saying that gathering is a privilage not a right, and its at the governments discretion wether or not u can assemble...

[hippiestead]

Individual Permits...if the FS wants paperwork let's help 'em out, everyone ask for a permit for themselves as individuals

a mountain of signed permits is just more trees the forresst service protected from our despicable environmental impacthttp://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
a mountain of written tickets/a mountain of permits...could petition the fs so make the permits the same size as the tickets...they already issue a 14 day permit for BLM land.


C

[earthmother]

I'm really torn. Of course the instant reaction is fuck a permit. But isn't the ultimate rainbow way to give all brothers and sisters (bellybuttons) a platform to air their opinions? In the best of worlds, an "agreement" (let them call it a permit if they must?) could be reached between PEOPLE, disolving the "us versus them" concept. We compose our agreement, they compose theirs, and everyone interested attends council and discusses the issues. A compromise is reached, consensus happens, at that point ANYBODY there could put their sig on it, so long as there is one sig from rainbow and one from FS, and it states specifically that whoever signs is in no way responsible for the rest of the group they are "representing". Fair is fair after all. That pretty much makes it just symbolic, sort of like a handshake. Then just try as much as possible to go by the agreement. That's all anyone could ask. I do think that if folks keep going about the thing as if there was a cold war going on between us and them that things will only get harder. We push on them they push on us. It's nature. Too much stubbornness on both sides gets us farther and farther away from the real issue which is cooperation.

[shaina]

no permits that has been what the rainbow family is about since the beginning. the right to gather peacefully on public land

[hjaystone]

there were permits signed in the 70s.

i think the poll is biased in the way the answers are given. where is the option for people who "no way never" would sign or want a permit signed and are totally anti-permit and pro-"peaceable assembly", *yet*, can still understand they do not control everyone, and will not allow one person making a choice to 'taint' the gathering enough for others not to attend.

it's not an apathetic "i don't care", it's "i can't do anything about it."

the gatherings aren't meant to be political events, they are not protests or demonstrations, they are spiritual above all, human. from this comes the peace, the ability to gather, etc, not the other way around. it's not done *because* it's a right. it's done, *and* it's a right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inalienable_rights

focusing on the material bullshit, "the mans" dotted line, signatures, egos, all attempts to place those issues above the greater cause of the gathering as a whole, to gather!

"ignore all rumors of cancellation"

[tikoo]

one peaceful voice is all

[salmon4me]

I'm really torn. Of course the instant reaction is fuck a permit. But isn't the ultimate rainbow way to give all brothers and sisters (bellybuttons) a platform to air their opinions? In the best of worlds, an "agreement" (let them call it a permit if they must?) could be reached between PEOPLE, disolving the "us versus them" concept. We compose our agreement, they compose theirs, and everyone interested attends council and discusses the issues. A compromise is reached, consensus happens, at that point ANYBODY there could put their sig on it, so long as there is one sig from rainbow and one from FS, and it states specifically that whoever signs is in no way responsible for the rest of the group they are "representing". Fair is fair after all. That pretty much makes it just symbolic, sort of like a handshake. Then just try as much as possible to go by the agreement. That's all anyone could ask. I do think that if folks keep going about the thing as if there was a cold war going on between us and them that things will only get harder. We push on them they push on us. It's nature. Too much stubbornness on both sides gets us farther and farther away from the real issue which is cooperation.
Exactly. This might help us avoid "Road Block Rage". I am scared for people's safety and well being if left in a bunch of VERY bitter feddies hands (because of last year).

[salmon4me]

OK, here is the count so far:

52% permit willing
48% no permit

[Dragonfly]

well because there is no set leader in the rainbow family of living light (thank god it probably be some old high holie fuck like chicken wing, Steven) anywhere from 1-10000000000000 people can sign the permit, and you don't even have to use your real name, so the permit thing is ok to a degree. "They" just can't figure out why the fuck people go out and live in the woods for months atta time.

[Gyva02]

52% permit willing
48% no permit

25 votes counted outta the 25,000+ possible votes. Wow, just like the elections

ha ha ha....

[Aesthete]

I assume you're assembling in a national park. I don't know; I saw that mentioned. It seems perfectly reasonable to mandate a permit for that action. If you were to peacefully assemble at one's house, then, of course, no permit would be needed. In my humble opinion, this is being blown way out of proportion.

[OnlyOne]

take thiz pole an shove it in their azz.

[hippiestead]

I assume you're assembling in a national park. I don't know; I saw that mentioned. It seems perfectly reasonable to mandate a permit for that action. If you were to peacefully assemble at one's house, then, of course, no permit would be needed. In my humble opinion, this is being blown way out of proportion.
National Forest, not National Park.

There are quite a few people that feel like requiring a permit to assemble on public lands is a violation of their Constitutional Rights. I'm one of those people; permits shouldn't be required to use public lands, after all they belong to the public, and I am part of the public, plus I pay the taxes that help fund the management of the public lands. I feel like the LEO division of the FS has bullied Rainbow folks so much that some folks feel that a permit might help end the harassment, but since permits were signed way back in the 70's & the harassment didn't stop, it doesn't really seem like signing a permit will help. It bugs me that I can go to any National Forest & camp & no one will ask for a permit but if I go to the Gathering & camp in the same vicinty as all those hippie folks all the sudden there's supposed to be a group use permit signed but I'm not there as a group, I'm there as an individual.

Then again, it's really hard for me to want to cooperate with the FS after witnessing the things that I have...

C

[Sofree]

what about the liablity clause? i'm no lawyer but it's my understanding that if someone signs a permit thereby creating a group and group liablity that, because anyone attending is legally considered a member of the group described in the permit, anyone attending can be held liable for any damamges done by anyone else attending. (the signer of the permit, however, is not held liable. i guess that would be a perk for signing.) now it's true to say, percentages being what they are, safty in numbers etc, that even if the liability clause were enacted (as per contract) that you or i personally would not be the ones ending up holding the bag (it's not your car tag or mine being recorded) but somebelly would. does everyone just kinda cross our fingers and hope that the liability clause isnt engaged and then continue to keep them crossed that it's not one of us with a lien slapped on our home and land? i think sometimes some folks forget how very cagey is the gov and it's not really a smart thing to just shrug and say "it's just a piece of paper". a permit is a legally binding contract and anyone attending a permitted gathering is legally bound by it. any thoughts?

[makno]

they dont want it signed fer nothing ....permit is like the treaty they used to get indians to sign . yep , right b 4 they genocided em . it seems once they 'define' a group and acertain who the leaders are , then they have a person to blame it on and can perceute the 'group ' once they define it . as you say otherwise were just a bunch of individuals...and they need a reason for every one they will destroy

[WanderingturnupII]

OK, so how should we view these data in light of the responses to the "Why Gather " thread? None of the respondants in that thread mention going to the Annual Gathering, or a gathering, in order to protest anything, or document police abuses, or to get a test case into court, or even to network with other activists.


"You can't plough a field by turning it over in your mind."

[WayfaringStranger]

if i remember correctly, there was quite a bit of politics surrounding the florida permit, and teh prerson who filled it out originally. for those reasons, i would say the florida permit is a bad idea. in other cases, surrounded by other circumstances, with a different signer, i could see how a permit might be advantageous.

[Sofree]

oh I'd never presume that Rainbow Gatherings be anything other than gatherings. I don't expect protests or anything like that. that's not the kind of thing Rainbow does. if Rainbow did that kind of thing one might imagine Rainbow would be deliberately (illegally) gathering in endangered forests in an effort to prevent the trees from becoming toothpicks and fiberboard. I have no answer for the permit dilemma other than perhaps attending one of the alternate July 4th gatherings instead of the huge government permitted one. such gatherings are smaller, of course, so not as massively impressive and you might miss out on seeing some dear folks that you want to see so I'm not suggesting boycott. but some folks might not like the idea of forced membership in a group or the possibility (however remote) of being held liable for damages done by other members of the group if they knew that's what the signing of permit institutes. I just think it's important that folks understand what the signing of a permit means so they can make an informed choice as to whether to attend a permit gathering or gather elsewhere.

[tikoo]

i was at the permited florida gathering and was one to stay til the end of clean-up . well , nearly the end ... all the work was done but for the last remaining camp and it's homey trashiness . so then i was gone down the road . i learned after they finally gots all our food eaten and wandered away , sho nuff , the fs called on the permit signer to clean-up that little corner of the gathering and so it happened .

[Sofree]

from all accounts the LEO and FS presense hasn't lessened any and some say has increased so the advantages of being permitted to camp as an individual in your own National Park would be ... what? just curious.

[tikoo]

since it doesn't matter , let's be peacefully humble . no war . we know how to make a circle and have considerably more power than anyone can really oppose . we trust in that ?

[Sofree]

i'm sorry. i guess i'm not understanding you. what doesn't matter? the signing of a permit? it does matter quite a lot to some individuals and i'm not ready to discount their concerns just because their concerns are inconvenient to nice nice vibes.

but then again ... i suppose you're right. it doesn't really matter. those who object to the permit will just have to gather elsewhere. tho the basic of dynamics of the annual Rainbow Gathering changes when a permit is signed since by attending you automaticly become a legally bound member of the group designated in the permit. at that point it's no longer a free assembly of individuals.

has anyone edited the universal Rainbow invitation to reflect the change yet?

[tikoo]

.
if a permit is ...
we gather
if a permit is not ....
we gather

freely sofree
and all ways

so when the fs challenges our choice of a site - we council and decide our family action for that particular scene in that moment . this we do with spirit , with a mind to natural Oneness - the land , the life that is there , our togetherness .

unlike the govt our decisions are not codified and institutionalized . the mental-problem of a standardized permit has been altogether theirs .

we are ever so wild as can be .
nothing has changed ,
tis always teatime .

[Sofree]

while i totally agree and honor the sentiment, sentiment changes nothing in a legally binding contract (signed by someone on my behalf without my consent). I don't have a problem with rainbows working with the FS in choosing a environmentally suitable site. my problem is with forced membership in a group and being under the edicts of a license while engaging in an actvity that is already my "God" given and Constitutional right.

while you may still be able to feel "wild" while in the government's ink and paper cage and nothing has changed for you, the whole nature of the Rainbow Gatherings has changed for many folks. but it's okay. it doesn't matter. if a permit is signed (as likely will be) for the official annual Rainbow Gathering I'll just have to gather with free individuals elsewhere. maybe in Arkansas. I hear it's a cool little alternative and the tea simmers nicely there too. I rebel against convention and go where The Spirit needs no permission to gather and express The Self. woooohoooo!!!

PS. have an excellent time where ever you go.

[tikoo]

.
not so bound by 'feelings' , i'll go as i please . the sentimentality is all yours even tho you frame it legalistically notsofree .

the rule of law is a fiction .

we are not entitled to gather . ever .
we do it by strength of spirit and heart
and get along in peace by the good gift
we make to all .

.

[Sofree]

of course you go as you please. my apologies if my post seemed to imply otherwise to you.

i'm speaking for myself only, i'd never presume to speak for you (much less sign legal paperwork on your behalf) without your consent.

and i do indeed feel i am entitled to gather with those i care for without government interference or need for government permission. i guess we just see things differently. peace.

PS. i don't know what "tikoo" means so i won't be mocking your name.

[tikoo]

in essence sofree is oneness ,

notsofree is just a word

tikoo is clouds talking

[dirtydog]

As a Canadian let me just say this about permits. I used to visit the national parks on a regular basis, but now it's $89 for a vehicle permit, $20 to camp front country, $8 to camp back country (per night), probably about $4 for a permit to wipe your ass. So what I do is, avoid national parks. There are more park pigs than there are people like me, so it seems, so I just say, fuck it, sure all the big mountains are in the parks, but there are plenty of medium sized mountains (with forests, streams, mosquitoes, bears, women, et cetera) and I can have just as good a time there without being taxed to death by park pigs. What I'd like to see is a park-in at Banff park east gate on highway 1, with ten people willing to donate beater cars to shutting down the highway to protest user fees.

But then, this probably isn't Rainbow Family stuff anyway, or is it?

[Sofree]

well, tho i haven't been to any of the alternative July 4th gatherings I get the impression that what you're suggesting is being experimented. I hear rumors that folks are planning gathering on BLM lands instead of in National Forests because for unexplained reasons a group use permit is not required on BLM land.

anti-permit refugees are gonna gather somewhere.


as for a protest. naw ... The Rainbow doesn't do that kind of thing. some individual rainbows do tho.

[barter mama]

dirtydog, just to clarify, Gatherings are not held in National Parks, they're held in national forests, which is quite different down here. National Parks are very crowded, closely monitored, and crawling with rangers. They're fun to visit, but aren't truly wilderness anymore, and you have to pay to get in. The national forest land that Gatherings are held on are usually just open wilderness and are set aside as protected forest land owned by the public. Because we are the public and we should have access to public lands, we gather there. There is a LOT of national forest land, much of it is very rural and untouched, and that's why we choose to have Gatherings there. A Gathering at a National Park would be insane, and I don't think it would happen because Parks have so many rules and restrictions...

Just wanted to clarify that there's a difference between National Parks and the public national forests where the Gatherings are held... carry on... :)

[hippiestead]

Wow...this is sooo close 51% no permit but only 7 outta 45 are actually in favor of a Family permit being signed.

[tikoo]

the poll has zero value

[papabear]

ho!

[hippiestead]

no one said the poll had actual value, but it is interesting to see where folks stand on the issue...I ran a similar verbal poll back in '96 and there was a strong opposition to permits...maybe in 10 yrs I'll run another permit poll to see how more years of LEO hassles affect folks opinions

C

[tikoo]

it taint like the authoritarian's govt doesn't need some opposition . they seem to love it . what i think is that they can go starve to death in a corner from uselessness .

i do not respond to the poll . it was designed to encourage the emotive 'no permit' response , eh ?

[WanderingturnupII]

i do not respond to the poll . it was designed to encourage the emotive 'no permit' response , eh ?
Indeed. For example, what set responses might one expect if the question was phrased "Is it worth putting a gathering in a minimal state of compliance with the letter of the law in order to keep Family from being abused by armed and dangerous Federal Thugs?", and an answer phrased "NO WAY! Chalenging gun toting Federal Thugs to a video camera fight is a fun game, and does more to preserve the spirit of a peace and healing gathering than signing some dumb ol' permit!"

[hippiestead]

It wasn't my intention to encourage any particular response...please remember that we haven't made it home since 2000 and the gun toting wasn't nearly as aggressive then. there are a lot of folks who used to think that not signing a permit was important who have changed their minds after the increased harrassment. There are other people who still think it's important not to sign a permit. For me, I wish permits weren't getting signed but after studying the issue and finding out that permits had been signed back in the 70's, I'm not sure why anyone ever claimed that we were Gathering without permits to begin with. When it comes to the safety of Family, if I really felt that signing a permit would end a fair amount of the harrassment, then maybe I could get behind it, but I don't think that signing a permit changes the harrassment status. On the other side of all this, I don't think that I would block a council decision to sign a permit either...

Now if y'all know of a way to add some other responses, then let me know.

[stoney]

its really a cach 22, ur damned if u do, ur damned if u dont.

[WanderingturnupII]

didn't mean to imply that I thought it was deliberate.

[hippiestead]

Didn't think ya did Turnup...just thought other folks should know that there wasn't any deliberate leading going on.

Now back to the issue, which is permits & how folks feel about them. Does anyone have any feedback about Gatherings where permits were signed...I'm not even sure which ones have had permits or not...
C

[Orsino2]

I think a permit would be ridiculous... but, you know, whatever keeps a gathering going. If not, I'd find somewhere where I wouldn't have to worry, but we shouldn't have to be the ones to run.

[dirtydog]

I've never attended a Rainbow Gathering as such. Even a gathering of anarchists has leaders, and it's to the advantage of all concerned that these leaders aren't harassed or charged with violating one bylaw or another. If someone of your group is fined or even jailed for a legal infraction associated with the gathering, the no-permit people, most of them, will be nowhere to be found when it comes time to help him/her out.

Plus, there is such a thing as public opinion in the larger society, and by attempting to comply with permit requirements and other red tape to the extent possible, the Rainbow Gathering will look better to society in general.

[unionjack67]

I understand there is a LOT of hot debate over the Permit issues. There has been for years and always will be.

I can see both sides of the issue.

I think that individual permits would help the FS determine the needs of a particular area when setting up portapotties and law enforcement.

I know, I know.. Give us a place to shit but don't provide us with peace keepers.

I have seen the chaos at gatherings. Lets pretend for one minute that A camp doesn't exsist (because those crazies are enough for me to want law enforcement there). Put 2000 strangers in a small area and there ARE going to be problems. I have been to the gatherings and I can say they aren't all about love, peace, and tolerance. There are a multitude of theives who steal what they can to get them by or get them to the next gathering. There are people who seek revenge against the thieves (almost always in a violent manner). Drug deals gone bad creates violence. Oh.. please don't tell me that there are no drugs are that they are discouraged.. I know better.

Those are just a couple of things to think about.

There are professionals who come to these gatherings once a year with the family and want a safe place to socialize and relax. The rainbowers have driven many of these families to Burning Man.

People don't want Law Enforcement there because they are scared of getting busted for breaking the law.

I would suggest a negoiation with FS and Law Enforcement to allow liberal practices and nudiity (or whatever else) in exchange for cooperation.

I, as a hippie, understand that I can not get my way because I pretend not to exsist (ie The Rainbow Family). The simple fact is the Rainbow Family is an organization with very loose leadership. There is no other way to explain 20k people showing up in a specific spot to gather once a year (to be the devils advocate).

I am against any regulations that would prohibit a group from gathering for religious, political, or social reasons. Rainbows are not terrorists or a danger to government. Far from a danger to the government. Everyone is afraid to organize to do anything about the government.

I am not here to slam the rainbows. I am only here to say that Rainbows need to learn to unite and organize so they can come to a mutually benefical agreement with Law Enforcement and FS.

I have a thick skin.. so let the flaming begin. It goes without saying that I won't change the mind of the vagrant rainbower any sooner than they will change my mind.

[hippiestead]

Flaming? folks here try to have honest discussions for the most part.

You say that you see both sides of the issue but you did not post an equal view of both sides...you seem to have a lot of assumptions that you've made from one point of view; a view that does not seem to be aware of the facts.

Do you want to know why I don't want leos playing their current games at Gatherings? Because of the harrassment they dish out...watch the look on a 6yr old's face when a gun is shoved into his unarmed daddy's face just because the fs wanted to intimidate a sister & the kid's daddy stood up to say it wasn't right...and this being an event that took place on-site at a previous Gathering, far from A-camp & on a road that the fs had agreed to stop driving on if the hippies would stop driving on it (& the hippies hadn't driven on it for several days when these un-uniformed leos harrassed the sister). I'm sorry but I take great offense to your comments about fearful law breakers and A-campers....because I don't know of any A-camper who would pull a gun on an unarmed person in front of child...and the only ones breaking the law at time of said incident were the leos who refused to identify their names & badge numbers even after they aimed their guns.

Cooperation...well some folks keep trying for those treaties with the leos...know what happened with other tribes who've signed treaties? Same thing happens with Rainbow, the leos bend or break the treaties. This year we had some treaty agreements, there was supposed to be cooperation..and there was some headway made...the fs didn't issue tickets for an illegal Gathering BUT they did drive into the site and harrass people on trumped up crap. I won't get into details since these stories aren't mine to tell. All I can say is that the Rainbows are trying...please try to do your homework before you assume how things are.

Oh & excuse me...vagrant rainbower? please allow me to decorate your flame-throwing fingers with flowers because that comment was just rude & intented to start a flame. Please feel free to have a Beautiful Day if you wish to.

[unionjack67]

Flaming? folks here try to have honest discussions for the most part.

You say that you see both sides of the issue but you did not post an equal view of both sides...you seem to have a lot of assumptions that you've made from one point of view; a view that does not seem to be aware of the facts.

Do you want to know why I don't want leos playing their current games at Gatherings? Because of the harrassment they dish out...watch the look on a 6yr old's face when a gun is shoved into his unarmed daddy's face just because the fs wanted to intimidate a sister & the kid's daddy stood up to say it wasn't right...and this being an event that took place on-site at a previous Gathering, far from A-camp & on a road that the fs had agreed to stop driving on if the hippies would stop driving on it (& the hippies hadn't driven on it for several days when these un-uniformed leos harrassed the sister). I'm sorry but I take great offense to your comments about fearful law breakers and A-campers....because I don't know of any A-camper who would pull a gun on an unarmed person in front of child...and the only ones breaking the law at time of said incident were the leos who refused to identify their names & badge numbers even after they aimed their guns.

Cooperation...well some folks keep trying for those treaties with the leos...know what happened with other tribes who've signed treaties? Same thing happens with Rainbow, the leos bend or break the treaties. This year we had some treaty agreements, there was supposed to be cooperation..and there was some headway made...the fs didn't issue tickets for an illegal Gathering BUT they did drive into the site and harrass people on trumped up crap. I won't get into details since these stories aren't mine to tell. All I can say is that the Rainbows are trying...please try to do your homework before you assume how things are.

Oh & excuse me...vagrant rainbower? please allow me to decorate your flame-throwing fingers with flowers because that comment was just rude & intented to start a flame. Please feel free to have a Beautiful Day if you wish to.There was really no sense in stating the reasons AGAINST the permits. Very few of the many arguments hold any water.

I haven't seen police harrassment at any gathering that was not warranted (outside of nudity).

I do agree that sometimes cops do odd things in the attempt to "catch" people. I spent 50 days in the Ocala Flordia County Jail for simply not having possession of my registration on my vehicle. Any hippie who has been to Marion County Jail knows it isn't the best place in the state.

As far as Vagrant Rainbows and A-Camp People.... If you take offense to that you are in denial. Those are the two biggest groups of moochers and trouble makes in the Rainbow Tribe.

The law provides basic rights provided you know how to work in a way that the government and system work. The Government loves paperwork. There is a lot of jumping through hoops for even the basic of things.

A gathering of 20k people requires a lot of things that Rainbows don't understand. Dumpsters, Porta Potties, Security, Evironmental Clean Up (which is never fully done by "The Clean Up Crew".

Someone has to pay for all of this and if the government has to flip the bill for it, it no longer becomes a right but a priviledge.

A Dollar fee for a permit would cover all those costs and make the permit provisions legal and binding.

I am completely neutral on the permit issue. I would get one if it was required, but I would not FORCE anyone to get one nor would I shun them for not getting one. I am only stating my opinon on the issue. :)

[SafetyPin]

"no one said the poll had actual value, but it is interesting to see where folks stand on the issue..."

Seeing where folks stand on issues "is" valuable!

[unionjack67]

"no one said the poll had actual value, but it is interesting to see where folks stand on the issue..."

Seeing where folks stand on issues "is" valuable!I think the poll (in this cause) is very close to how your "average" Rainbow feels.

Fortunately we live in a country that allows for some form of free speech. From all of those that I have talked to in the last 8 years, the permit issue leans heavily AGAINST.

There is nothing against that opinion so long as neither side FORCES their Opinion. Amongst the rainbows it seems like a taboo issue to discuss outside of forums.

[hippiestead]

UnionJack67
It's obvious that your view of Rainbow is very different than mine. I view Rainbow from a healing stand-point because I have seen so many folks grow & heal because they found Rainbow. Rainbow is a Spiritual thing for me & I try to live it all year long. A-camp & other road dogs need the healing that can happen through Rainbow...plus they get all the hard work taken care of before the professionals ever get there...clearing the trails & laying the groundwork...oh yeah, you want porta-potties & security... again, differing views of what Rainbow 'is', IMO porta-potties & security are for festivals & I don't believe Rainbow to be a festival.

On the permit issue by itself...individuals come to Quartzite every winter & camp in a huge group on BLM land...and they aren't required to get a group permit. Individual 14-day permits are issued. If the fs/leos gave the same amount of respect to Rainbow that they do in Quartzite, there wouldn't be a permit issue.

[MattInVegas]

When I used to go out I would always go 'Permit'. Yeah, I'd still pay the fees. They go to pay for I dunno. shit like Fire crews and equipment, Rangers to police the area, clean-up crews. As long as it really gets there.

[luvione]

Greetings ya'll,
Naturally I dont beleave we should have to sighn permits. Someone mentioned the indian treatys,, sighning a permit is the same thing. Those cocksuckers were out of hand too many times! There are many reasons I am against permits, all political. And thats just my lil tiny opinion.

Our Mother Cries with every insult we allow the pigs to make upon her, rape for the all mighty buck.
Lovin To All earth spirits,
Luvione

[unionjack67]

Greetings ya'll,
Naturally I dont beleave we should have to sighn permits. Someone mentioned the indian treatys,, sighning a permit is the same thing. Those cocksuckers were out of hand too many times this yr. I have kept my mouth shut all this time, but some of ya's aint got a clue to what your talkin about. Turnip, Tikko, Hippiestead, this is not directed at ya'll,, I am not goin to get into with anyone here on this subject, it was wrong and thats the truth, AND they were not just fuckin with a-camp, or "undesirables". I am not goin to go into everything I saw, just know I shed tears too many times cuz of their bullshit. Soaring Eagle, you saw alot. We all deal with these things differently, but oh damnt, now I am crying again. I wish I was more eloquant, we need to all go next yr,, there were so many sick kids, they had those damn plastic bullets to use on us, so many circles needed to be made,, even on the camp I was in. I have spoken to 2 of my dear friends from before rainbow,before 1967,, they were like "that aint rainbow",,, there were lil kids sittin at their tradin blanket in front of kiddie village, they had bullets on their blanket! There are many reasons I am against permits, all political. And thats just my lil tiny opinion.Sorry, someone on here pushed my button,, and I have bottled up alot of what I saw. I cant love my enemy, so it makes it hard to always be a shining light for Love. And again, I apoligize for my outburst ya'll.

Our Mother Cries with every insult we allow the pigs to make upon her, rape for the all mighty buck.
Lovin To All earth spirits,
LuvioneI don't understand what your post is saying... I get that you are against the permits, but other than that.... It is a rambling mess. Rainbow CHILDREN with Bullets they were trying to barter or trade? Sick kids at the gathering (that is par)? Rainbows that aren't rainbow?

Maybe I need to get baked for this to make sense.

[hippiehillbilly]

i think union jack has this place confused with AGR.http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/newsmilies/biggrinjester.gif

[luvione]

Thankyou! I did apoligize for my momentary freak out!

Love to all earth spirits, here & beyond,,****

[unionjack67]

i think union jack has this place confused with AGR.http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/newsmilies/biggrinjester.gifAGR? Alt.Gathering.Rainbow? If that is what you are talking about, I stopped going there a long time ago. No intelligent life. Matter of fact all the threads, in the time I visited, were flames between a thief and his accuser (went on for months), Permit and non-permit rehashing, and not much else.

How am I confusing Hip with AGR?

I came here to find intelligent life. So far I have. Just because I don't agree with someone doesn't make thier point insignificant.

Debate is good so long as they are devoid of insults and personal attacks. That is what AGR was solely about from my viewpoint.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f127/normlguy67/th_mz_08_10011648157-1.jpg

[hippiestead]

When I used to go out I would always go 'Permit'. Yeah, I'd still pay the fees. They go to pay for I dunno. shit like Fire crews and equipment, Rangers to police the area, clean-up crews. As long as it really gets there.
Well Matt, if it were a matter of a fee, that too could be worked out...the fs doesn't want a fee for the permit, what they want is one person to claim the be the leader of Rainbow but since we don't have leaders. This big stand off has stemmed out of the fact the Rainbow is something that the government cannot understand...the permit regulation only came into play in 1995/1996

[hippiestead]

How am I confusing Hip with AGR?


http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f127/normlguy67/th_mz_08_10011648157-1.jpg
It could be that 'vagrants' comment...which I concidered to be a shooting flame since I was one of those 'vagrants' until we bought land to park our bus on. And let me tell ya bro, me'n'my old man don't drink & we don't do drugs but we sacrificed a month out of every year to go out in the woods & build a kitchen (bringing 75% or more of the food needed to run the kitchen) just to have people like you diss our clan (and I will always consider A-camp to by my kin...especially since our kitchen crew is made up entirely of A-campers who spend much of their month at Rainbow sober!!!!)

I don't mind having an intelligent conversation with anyone & I don't mind when folks have differing opinions from mine...but bro, you dissed A-camp Family & many here on HipForums respect A-camp for the good that they do & most of us are not shy about telling A-camp when they are screwing up, face-to-face & not on an internet forum.

[luvione]

Again, thankyou, Cinnamon,,,, I agree, much more eloquant than I,LOL,,

Love, Peace & Happpiness,,,,

[unionjack67]

It could be that 'vagrants' comment...which I concidered to be a shooting flame since I was one of those 'vagrants' until we bought land to park our bus on. And let me tell ya bro, me'n'my old man don't drink & we don't do drugs but we sacrificed a month out of every year to go out in the woods & build a kitchen (bringing 75% or more of the food needed to run the kitchen) just to have people like you diss our clan (and I will always consider A-camp to by my kin...especially since our kitchen crew is made up entirely of A-campers who spend much of their month at Rainbow sober!!!!)

I don't mind having an intelligent conversation with anyone & I don't mind when folks have differing opinions from mine...but bro, you dissed A-camp Family & many here on HipForums respect A-camp for the good that they do & most of us are not shy about telling A-camp when they are screwing up, face-to-face & not on an internet forum.SOBER A CAMP? LOL... Then they weren't really A camp. Someone drinking a beer doesn't constitute being labeled A-Camp.

A Camp and Vagrants aren't people like you who have something through hard work (vagrants and A campers are scared of anything resembling work). A Camp and Vagrants are people who spange everyone who looks like they might have a quarter and will never have anything in life. Not my place to tell you who to have as friends, but you are playing with a lit stick of dynamite when you think someone in A camp is your friend.

You obviously did good for yourself. That is FAR from the norm for those type of losers.

[unionjack67]

Well Matt, if it were a matter of a fee, that too could be worked out...the fs doesn't want a fee for the permit, what they want is one person to claim the be the leader of Rainbow but since we don't have leaders. This big stand off has stemmed out of the fact the Rainbow is something that the government cannot understand...the permit regulation only came into play in 1995/1996That is part of the problem on the government's side. They need to not approach it from the angle of an event with promoters and organizers.

They need to go for individual permits. Past experience with the gatherings gives them a very good indication of how many people are going to show up and what resources are needed to deal with it.

That is the fault of the narrow minds in our government (typical).

[luvione]

Hey UNIONJACK (what kind of hippie name is that?) ya was born in 67,, So UNIONJACK, folks do quit drinkin and give back to the community. yadda yadda yadda

[hippiestead]

SOBER A CAMP? LOL... Then they weren't really A camp. Someone drinking a beer doesn't constitute being labeled A-Camp.

A Camp and Vagrants aren't people like you who have something through hard work (vagrants and A campers are scared of anything resembling work). A Camp and Vagrants are people who spange everyone who looks like they might have a quarter and will never have anything in life. Not my place to tell you who to have as friends, but you are playing with a lit stick of dynamite when you think someone in A camp is your friend.

You obviously did good for yourself. That is FAR from the norm for those type of losers.
All of this just shows that you've only looked from the outside...I know plenty of A-campers & road dogs who do quite well for themselves & I know plenty who have sobered up; sorry if you don't...I feel that's a loss for you cuz it's wonderful to see folks who have healed. Our kitchen was known as 'B'-camp for boozeless...our crew has a similar rough edge like road dogs tend to have & some of them still drink during the year, but when they are Home, they plug into our camp & go to gate once or twice to visit if they get an undenyable urge to drink, otherwise they are the most productive folks I've ever seen.

Bro, how you can make so many assumptions when you have never researched into the complexities of alcoholism & homelessness, let alone the dynamics of adding the Rainbow Family into the equation, is beyond me. Let me tell ya, after 18+ years as an active Rainbow, I know of a great many A-campers who have had my back many a time.

Now I am going to put up the :offtopic: message because this thread is about permits. The particular conversation you are trying to have is located in another thread, so please pull up that thead & continue if you wish, but for several of us here, this is an old drawn out topic.


Anyway...so no permit was signed this year & no tickets were issued for illegal Gathering, so maybe there is some serious hope this issue to finally end

[unionjack67]

Hey UNIONJACK (what kind of hippie name is that?) ya was born in 67,, are ya wanna the asshole familys kids? For those of you who arent old enough or your parents didnt hang,, yes there really is an asshole family from back in the day,,, it was more of a joke, but it kinda stuck.So UNIONJACK, how come you think you know so much about A-camp anyway? As with the STP family, folks do quit drinkin and give back to the community You aint spreadin no love here, ya talk about burning man, maybe thats more your scene huh? I aint playin here no more ya'll, internet seems to be a place for people to hide and talk shit. I just want to connect with reall family, and pretty much have but I dont like mean, shit talkin. PEACE,,,,,

not with cats like this around.Oh yeah... Feel the love. Typical hypocrite. Love, peace, harmony... and then start the flaming and profanity when something hits to close to home.

I just made one of my points about your typical rainbow.

Thanks for the help.

This was a permit issue and and I brought up effects of A camp on the reputation of the group as a whole.

If getting all bent out of shape helps you somehow, go for it. I attacked no specific individual and will not start now with your statement. I have made a lot of other posts in Hip and yes.. I do spread the love. But I am not to got agree with something I think is wrong just to look cool.

[hippiehillbilly]

your typical rainbow???


is there a typical A camper?? is there a typical gutter punk?? i think not..


i love how people make broad generalizations to try an make a point.. it makes them look like complete buffoons.

i was one of them crusty kids way back when,, a gutterpunk,, spangeing an thieven.

slowly over the course of 7 years i found my way on the right path(wow over 25 years with the family). i have the rainbow family to thank for that. since then ive devoted my life to helpin the crusty kidz the road dogs, by giving them a way station..

i can honestly say that your generalizations are just that. i know A campers that make damn good money ,that have good jobs and decent homes. i know many kidz who used to be road dogs, spangin an thieven there way across america who are now traveling the right path.. an im one of them..

i think its really sad that someone labels people lumps them in a pile an deems them worthless just because they have had few bad experiences.

on the flip side,, theres usually a reason why someone is picked as a mark,, makes me wonder how you treated these folks before you gave up on them...

[unionjack67]

your typical rainbow???


is there a typical A camper?? is there a typical gutter punk?? i think not..


i love how people make broad generalizations to try an make a point.. it makes them look like complete buffoons.

i was one of them crusty kids way back when,, a gutterpunk,, spangeing an thieven.

slowly over the course of 7 years i found my way on the right path(wow over 25 years with the family). i have the rainbow family to thank for that. since then ive devoted my life to helpin the crusty kidz the road dogs, by giving them a way station..

i can honestly say that your generalizations are just that. i know A campers that make damn good money ,that have good jobs and decent homes. i know many kidz who used to be road dogs, spangin an thieven there way across america who are now traveling the right path.. an im one of them..

i think its really sad that someone labels people lumps them in a pile an deems them worthless just because they have had few bad experiences.

on the flip side,, theres usually a reason why someone is picked as a mark,, makes me wonder how you treated these folks before you gave up on them...I've NEVER had a problem with Crustys or Road Dogs. I came across them daily living in Missoula. Most of the ones I met were train hoppers and always actively doing something constructive.

Road Dogs and Crustys tend to be a rough crowd and young (generalizing of course), but I almost admire the frieght hopper variety that I met so often. I'll say that they didn't Posture near as much as those drunks and bullies at A Camp. I'd party with the crusty's and Road Dogs than I would those bums at A Camp.


I generalize the group, not the individual. A Campers are fine when they first wake up at 2pm from the previous nights drunk. Come 3-4pm and they are annoying and obnoxious again.

[hippiehillbilly]

. A Campers are fine when they first wake up at 2pm from the previous nights drunk. Come 3-4pm and they are annoying and obnoxious again. i would have to agree with you there, one in particular comes to mind,,no wait,, hes always obnoxious..but i can honestly say i know some damn likable A campers,that aint lookin to start shit ...

[SLIPPERYnWET]

I Dont Care About Any Permit They Cant Stop Who I Am And What I Do

Im So Happy I Came Out The Closet Today Go Read My Post

Im Gay And Ok

[dirtydog]

Sorry, I came in a little late. Let me guess:

LEO: law enforcement officer
A-camp: A gathering of Rainbow-type anarchists that permits consumption of alcohol.

Is this correct?

[unionjack67]

Sorry, I came in a little late. Let me guess:

LEO: law enforcement officer
A-camp: A gathering of Rainbow-type anarchists that permits consumption of alcohol.

Is this correct?UNBIASED:

A Camp is consists solely of Power Drinkers and Alcoholics. Most over the age of 30 (from my experience).

A Camp has a Reputation for being rough.

BIASED:

A Camp usually wants to stick their noses in everything and they end up blowing small problems up into big mountains. They can quickly make a bad situation, worse.

They try to play the gathering security (judge, jury, and executioner). All the while doing whatever they want.

[SafetyPin]

dirtydog,

You've been helpful. I was planning to wait for ever if I had to to find out what leo's and A-campers were. No way I was going to draw attention to my ignorance by asking.

My word for leo's is "police agents." That's what I call'm.

[Hippie Steve]

I don't think we should be signing permits, But that right seems to be well on it's way to being legislated out of existance. Maybe if more of us voted, instead of just complaining about it.

[rootdigger2007]

Fk permits

[luvione]

No Permits!!!

[luvione]

it says I was here yesterday, but I was at work, I dont get it?

[sidd]

How can someone sign a permit “for” the family one person can't speak for the whole gathering it is against the rainbow way.


Fuck the permits; no one has any right to sign them for the family.

[davideshkol]

Iam an elder of the Israel family. Each year our family in Israel and similarly, in the European Gathering has to face the same "permit" issue. Our family includes all people under the rainbow, does it not? Including "Babylon" authorities, often difficult and different in philosophy. Each year our "seed camp" must come to terms with these 'authorities'. Always the 'rainbow spirit' somehow solves the 'conflict'... Those of us actually at the gathering find our strength in circles. No leaders, just respect the circle and the talking stick. Representatives of that circle may sign permits if they volunteer. Rainbow democracy and even our beloved individualistic anarchy are preserved. May the Spirit bless us all...

[chardonnay]

Davideshkol i agree with you totally.


"Rainbow democracy and even our beloved individualistic anarchy are preserved" <--This is only statment i found in reading this thread to be totally neutral and sympathetic to both arguments!

Im going to Ocala this in a couple days and despite all the heresay & libel i plan on having a good time with my family even if the LEO's are going crazy!

Lovin You All
http://www.hipgallery.com/photopost2/data/2304/WelcomeHome.jpg

[Astrolog]

I checked 'Let the Forest Service sign the permit' - let them care of it if they want. But this should stay between them. I agree we shouldn't sign up anything because if we will do sooner or later there will be situation that they will not give us that sign. And then what we'll do?
I was Rainbow organizer 2 times in Warmia forest in Poland. Forest Service came each time but we knew one guy from them and they were ok. Even he took his wife, children next day and came to the gathering for a while.

[buddhabaron]

your rights are whatever you tell yourself they are. we all have rights to do whatever we want, all you have to do is do it. and if the man wants to put you down, don't hesitate to handcuff him to a tree and take off his mighty belt of power. after all, we are all just men, none better than others.

[wanderingwolf66]

i say don,t sign the permits i was at duck pond this year a lotta bro and sister got tickets they said we should all come outta the woods and get tickets together that sound ok but as for me i beleave we should duck and hide unless we r all going to stand and fight which isent the rainbow way to fight that is the best place to make that stand is at a national gathering but if u plan on doing that plan it right like a sight with pleanty of freash water with lots of places in witch to stand ur ground without having to give up ur safety,welp dats all i got to say fer now.
Wolf

[Mycelium]

If a permit is all the FS want, there's no reason except stubbornness not to sign. This many people in the backwoods poses numerous problems, fire not the least of them. I feel that permits allow the FS to promote land stewardship. Now, whether they are really stewards of the land is another question, but I feel that they ought to be given the tools necessary to do so.

In the end, though, the permit has very little to do with the average rainbow. And it can be used as a weapon against us....remember WV?

[Lolli]

Save a tree......omit the permit!!!

[veiled1]

Its in Florida right?? What were you expecting ??? Its FLORIDA !!!

[dirtydog]

I've never been to a Rainbow Gathering. I'd have to look at the fine print on the permit and see what it is I'm agreeing to. I would try to have a cooperative attitude with authorities who are just doing their job, but sometimes cops just have to act like cops.
Like the time I was camped on the lake shore at Lake Minnewanka, Banff Park, Alberta, with my tent on the sand. A park pig motored up in a catamaran and told me to move my tent on to one of the gravel pads provided. Like the park would be damaged if my tent was on sand 100 feet away.

On the other hand, park cops can be a plus at times, like when ignorant campers next door have their boom boxes turned up. Don't they realize that they're forcing all their neighboring campers to listen to their stinking rock music?

[dirtydog]

Iam an elder of the Israel family. Each year our family in Israel and similarly, in the European Gathering has to face the same "permit" issue. Our family includes all people under the rainbow, does it not? Including "Babylon" authorities, often difficult and different in philosophy. Each year our "seed camp" must come to terms with these 'authorities'. Always the 'rainbow spirit' somehow solves the 'conflict'... Those of us actually at the gathering find our strength in circles. No leaders, just respect the circle and the talking stick. Representatives of that circle may sign permits if they volunteer. Rainbow democracy and even our beloved individualistic anarchy are preserved. May the Spirit bless us all...
Say Israel family guy: If Gaza Palestinians aren't allowed to leave Gaza, should Israelis be allowed to leave Israel?

[Etherwind27]

The only permit I need is the U.S. constitution!

[WanderingturnupII]

INTERNAL CONTRADICTION! Since the courts have ruled that 36CFR251-261 does not interfere with rights granted by amendment I, and as the Federal courts are empowered by Article III, if you support the Constitution, you must support their decisions, and, therefore, 36CFR251-261.

[Rant]

it worked out very well actually.....people did the exact same things they always do at the gathering, and the cops played a diminished role. (although making big shows of an entrance and exit a few times, and stealing a few dogs) I say sign no permit, but if the LEO's are reasonable and willing to make concessions, then there is no reason for us to be the assholes.....(theyre going to come check up on us one way or the other)

[Dylanchick0113]

I don't agree with permits the way they are now,, making one person responsible for many. But I do agree with HHB about A-Camp. well put hillbilly

[dirtydog]

your rights are whatever you tell yourself they are. we all have rights to do whatever we want, all you have to do is do it. and if the man wants to put you down, don't hesitate to handcuff him to a tree and take off his mighty belt of power. after all, we are all just men, none better than others.
Attention all inmates. Lights on in five minutes. Mop men to the hallways. Kitchen workers to the kitchen. Line up for the count.