Gender neutral/Androgynous

[Samhain]

I'm trying to find something on the net about people who want to be gender neutral (who don't want to have apperances of or be of ethier gender) and people who like to be of different genders at different times.

all I can find is stuff about equal rights, i.e gender neutral langauge and rest rooms!!

so if you feel you are gender neutral, or feel you are interested or have some information or useful links please post them here.
I have drawn a blank at the moment but that doesn't mean I'll stop trying
S

[Lagan]

i could be wrong but you might want to have a look at judith butler's work, particularly gender trouble. it might not be what you are looking for, but it was the first thing that came into my mind when i read your post.

[mynameiskc]

it made me think of the "it's pat!" skits on SNL. pat being the character who couldn't be identified as either male or female, and the hilarity that ensues in trying to figure out how to deal with someone when you can't decide if they're male or female. i had a friend when i was in the third grade, named alex. i still have no idea if alex was male or female. alex was simply alex.

[Adamness]

I don't know of any links or resources offhandand don't have time to search my computer for them at the moment, but what were you wondering specifically? I don't identify as gender neutral, but I may be able to answer alot of your questions. Just post them on here rather than through private messages, that way answers/discussions can be up on the board. I think it's an important and often underrepresented topic in trans* discussions.

[Samhain]

Adamness

I once saw a TV programme where people didn't want to have any masculine or femine traits at all and didn't want any sex organs at all, they wanted to be gender neutral, I know this is different to being androgenous and being comfortable with this.

I am pretty ignorant about the whole subject, so if you know about it maybe you could write a little piece on this thread, then maybe we could ask you questions
S

[RumpusParable]

i know this is an older thread, and am not even completely sure i can help, but i'm a non-gender who very rarely experiences being either of the binary genders.

so if it sounds like i may be able to help you, feel free to ask questions. i don't mind anything so long as it's out of friendly interest/curiosity, as it sounds to be with you.

[Samhain]

i know this is an older thread, and am not even completely sure i can help, but i'm a non-gender who very rarely experiences being either of the binary genders.

so if it sounds like i may be able to help you, feel free to ask questions. i don't mind anything so long as it's out of friendly interest/curiosity, as it sounds to be with you.
Ok could you give us more information about what this is actually about, becausee many of us are in the dark, maybe also a name of an organsation if you know any and also web sites?
S

[RumpusParable]

Sorry, I've no good links or info on organizations to share on this subject.

General description of what it's about (for me, at least):

I simply was born and grew up without a gender... and didn't realize I didn't have one until I was in my early twenties, call it 21ish. My first experience with gender lasted about an hour or so, and it consisted of being a "man" inside my female body. Afterwards, I thought it was interesting but somewhat just shrugged it off as I didn't understand it. Later that year, for the first time I experienced being a "woman" inside for about 15-30 minutes.

It was after thinking about these, after returning to normal that I realized that those are how other people live on a daily basis... the time as a woman is what made more impact as suddenly my body fit to Me, rather than the normal of just carrying Me. I'd always thought people were being rather dramatic acting as though their bodies had some connection to who they were as people. Experiencing being a man and feeling very awkward in my body and then being a woman and having my package-shape fit as part of who I was made me realize that people actually felt a connection and were affected (beyond purely mechanical concerns) by the body carrying them around every day.

For me, my body is just what carries me around. It's like having a car or wearing clothes: it's enjoyable, it gets the job done, I like some aspects of it... but the car or shirt isn't at all a part of me.

I'm not stuck opposite like some folks on a daily basis and am thankful for that, though not being transsexed but another form of transgendered has it's quirks. Being a man inside my female body is quite uncomfortable and I can appreciate why others trapped that way find it unacceptable, but frankly being a woman inside a female body isn't particularly pleasant in my opinion, either. I'm thankful, also, that my experiences of gender are very rare... around 1-3 times a year, not more than about an hour at a time.

I've thought on how nice it would be to make my outside closer to my inside, but it's really not an option. I heartily enjoy sex in a female body and am used to it's functioning, any alteration would jeopardize that. Appearance-wise, alterations to a close match would cause a lot of unwanted attention on a daily basis. Plus, it's really not necessary... I feel no serious and pressing discomfort when I'm normal and not experiencing gender; I'm just me as I've been since I can remember, carried around by the same package I've had since I can remember.

Well this is getting long, I hope this was helpful instead of off-interest rambling. Hope, also, that my descriptions were clear; I didn't want to take too much time on them in an initial response.

[Samhain]

sorry I have taken so long to answer this, I am wondering what your appearence is like, do you try and be as neutral as possible, i.e no beard growth, no makeup?
and what type of clothes do you favour?
S

[RumpusParable]

I vary by whim. Dressing or styling myself in any particular way comes from my artistic nature; my body is just another canvas I have to work with.

Due to my body construction (very obviously female figure) I am not able to truly achieve a neutral or plain-masculine look as I was able to when I was in my teens and early twenties, when my breasts were small enough to hide or bind. Back then, depending on the day, mood or special event I would dress and style myself to pass as a male, deliberately androgynous, or ultra-female. In fact, my face is such that back then if my figure wasn't displayed on purpose I was often mistaken for male or questioned as to sex without trying... I've a fairly pleasant, plain face that can go either way.

Now, unless whim strikes me otherwise I tend to dress in the casually neutral manner that I grew up in that was worn by males and females, both.

I've a female package and do not fight against that, rather I work with it. (I've long had the opinion that if I had to be placed in a male or female body, I'm glad it was female; for all the hassles I find it more aesthetically pleasing than the male form).

Unless deliberately looking like a male, I've found that with my form most anything passes for feminine in dress or style whether it is or not... it's pretty inescapable... I just run around looking as nature made me except for the times I decide to decorate myself... and when I do that, it can go in any direction, any level fo masculine or feminine. If I ever find a decent binder, I'll again try for androgynous...

On a daily basis, I just dress in what suits me and accept that people view it as feminine even if it's just a standard unisex outfit...

[Samhain]

so if you had the choice to be born again, would you be genderless completely?
S

[RumpusParable]

Sexless you mean? No, because I enjoy sex. If I'd no sexual organs I'd not have that and if I did but not one of the current binary patterns then I'd simply be an oddity/third sex which would leave me in the situation, but more hassles (assuming I was not intersexed but a completely different form... which, on thinking of it, would mean my entire physical development would be different than other humans).

[Samhain]

well I can't think of anything else to add at the moment, however thanks for contibuting I think this is a very valuable thread.
I hope you'll carry on posting here
S

[RumpusParable]

No problem! Will see you around!

[mynameiskc]

you know, i vacillate heavily between my masculine and feminine sides. sometimes i feel like a trucker, sometimes i feel like a sex-kitten. it depends on where i am in life.

[Samhain]

you know, i vacillate heavily between my masculine and feminine sides. sometimes i feel like a trucker, sometimes i feel like a sex-kitten. it depends on where i am in life.
thats different to gender neutral, we're talking about people that don't wish to have elements of ethier sex
S

[mynameiskc]

yeah, i read that, but one of the posts here reminded me...

[bi4ever]

any others here like that? There are days where I feel sexy and feminine -- which makes it very frustrating working in a factory where I am expected to give off vibes of being macho -- and then there are days that I admire myself in the mirror, looking at the muscles I have acquired from my job. Androgynous body makeover in the works, anyone? My face isn't very masculine, either, nor is it what most would call feminine.

[Samhain]

although this doesn't fit into what you are saying exactly it might interest you and I could definatly say that I am more or less the same but edging towards fem
http://www.hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195949

[a_rabid_pineapple]

So is it like you switch from feeling masculine to feminine and then back again? Or is it like the Gender Neutral topic in where you are neither most of the time but have short bouts of both?

[bi4ever]

I really believe that for me it is like having a split personality (which I don't think I have). I also know that I *realize* that I have a tendency to mentally put on someone else's face. For example, I can be my co-worker, or I can be my aunt. It sounds silly, but lately I have come to feel that maybe I don't have an identity at all (except for being a good husband and daddy). It's just weird, for me anyway, and I often feel sad for it, with thoughts of "I never found my identity" or "I'm going bald, now I will have a chance at looking like a real woman". I guess I'm just a mess, yet talking about going to counseling with my wife has only led her to say and think things like "you need to find out who you are" and "I feel like I am losing my husband". I guess, in a nutshell, I wish that I had an androgynous face and body because that's what seems to suit my personality best, and that I could just wake up on any particular day and be either a man or a woman. Hope I didn't confuse the hell out of anyone here.

[a_rabid_pineapple]

Don't worry, this is a confusing topic and many of us have been through or seen similar situations. I can understand why you would want an androgynous body and face it's a frustrating not knowing who you are, I sometimes wish the same thing, so know that you're not alone. =)

It sounds silly, but lately I have come to feel that maybe I don't have an identity at all (except for being a good husband and daddy). It's just weird, for me anyway, and I often feel sad for it, with thoughts of "I never found my identity" or "I'm going bald, now I will have a chance at looking like a real woman".
It's very important that you recognize your identity as a good husband and daddy! Maybe it'll help to ask yourself questions (to get to know yourself better), if you don't know the answer write it down somewhere and come back to it later.

I guess I'm just a mess, yet talking about going to counseling with my wife has only led her to say and think things like "you need to find out who you are" and "I feel like I am losing my husband".
She may be scared. It might help to reasure her that going to counseling will help you find out who you are and that it is a perfectly healthy thing to do. I would recommend counselling not because I think you're a mess but because you need a little guidance. We all get lost once in a while.

Maybe this androgynous personality is apart of who you are, there are millions of possibilites waiting for you to find out. I wish you luck! =)

[Samhain]

it also sounds like your wife is copng with this quite well, she didn't over react and send you out of the house, at least you didn't say she did, at least now you can explore whats going on with this and not keep secrets from her which is often a greater burden than feeling like you don't know yourself.

this space is open to everyone, have a look at the other threads in here see if any of them ring a bell for how you feel
S

[Samhain]

oh and by the way, I am both male and female in mind and in looks 24/7, living proof that you can live as both!
S

[a_rabid_pineapple]

Hahah, Sam your lucky!

[Wiyaka]

It's not quite gender neutrality but lots of links to the subject of androgyny here:
http://androgyne.0catch.com/
The view many Native American cultures had of gender is interesting.
http://androgyne.0catch.com/2spiritx.htm

[SleepJiva]

I'm a post op M to F, but unlike most TS's, I never really felt like I was a woman trapped in a mans body. I needed to have a female body, but be able to present as androgyne.

When I first started on hormones, I didn't really understand what I wanted. As the hormones started to work on my body though, I gradually began to see and feel the real me emerging. By the time I'd been referred for surgery, I was completely clear in my mind about what I wanted.

I think for me, it was necessary to instigate some change so that I could see a way forward.

[Samhain]

I'm a post op M to F, but unlike most TS's, I never really felt like I was a woman trapped in a mans body. I needed to have a female body, but be able to present as androgyne.

When I first started on hormones, I didn't really understand what I wanted. As the hormones started to work on my body though, I gradually began to see and feel the real me emerging. By the time I'd been referred for surgery, I was completely clear in my mind about what I wanted.

I think for me, it was necessary to instigate some change so that I could see a way forward.could you explain a little more?
S

[SleepJiva]

could you explain a little more?
SErm......I'll try. :)

I was born male, but always felt at odds with having a male body. I was diagnosed as a primary transsexual because my feelings about myself went back as far as I could remember. Unlike most M2F's though, I didn't identify as female, how does any M2F really know what it feels like to be a woman for that matter. I identified as a female bodied androgyne trapped in a male body. It was therefore necessary for me to be treated as an M2F TS in order that I could live as an androgyne with an appropriate body. :)

[Samhain]

Erm......I'll try. :)

I was born male, but always felt at odds with having a male body. I was diagnosed as a primary transsexual because my feelings about myself went back as far as I could remember. Unlike most M2F's though, I didn't identify as female, how does any M2F really know what it feels like to be a woman for that matter. I identified as a female bodied androgyne trapped in a male body. It was therefore necessary for me to be treated as an M2F TS in order that I could live as an androgyne with an appropriate body. :)if you could have a body that was neither sex/gender would you go for it?
S

[SleepJiva]

if you could have a body that was neither sex/gender would you go for it?
SNo. I love having a female body. Everthing about my body and the way I see myself feels right now. My surgery was a complete success, and I'm lucky in that I enjoy a very satisfying sex life. Prior to surgery, that just wasn't possible. :)

[Samhain]

No. I love having a female body. Everthing about my body and the way I see myself feels right now. My surgery was a complete success, and I'm lucky in that I enjoy a very satisfying sex life. Prior to surgery, that just wasn't possible. :)
however in mind what I be correct in saying that you feel ethier both male and female or neither?
S

[SleepJiva]

however in mind what I be correct in saying that you feel ethier both male and female or neither?
SI can't really answer that because I don't know what any of them are supposed to feel like. I have no frame of reference. Is all I can say is "I feel like me." Prior to surgery I didn't really feel like anything at all. I was just an awkward dysfunctional nothing. Now though, I feel like me. I know that's probably not really that helpful an answer, but it's the best I can do I'm afraid. :)

[Samhain]

I can't really answer that because I don't know what any of them are supposed to feel like. I have no frame of reference. Is all I can say is "I feel like me." Prior to surgery I didn't really feel like anything at all. I was just an awkward dysfunctional nothing. Now though, I feel like me. I know that's probably not really that helpful an answer, but it's the best I can do I'm afraid. :)
I think thats a really great answer, you are quite a role model
S

[TDK-0]

Hello. First of all, I wanna say how content I am that I found this place. I was looking all over for informations and people discussing this subject.

I'm a teenager and female, but I can't accept this sex as being descriptive for me at all. I never say what gender I am, for example in posting on a board or alike. I'd like to pretend I'm a man, I have issues concerning women (don't like them and don't want to be considered one of its members). However I don't feel the need to change my body either way because I feel that me is ME, and Me isn't female, nor (because i was born female) obviously not a man. I feel good with ME how I am, but simply don't like women because I see them as weak and not ok in my standards.
Even though ME is me, not belonging to any gender, I dress in a masculine way. So that would make me androgynus, even though I wear make up. I regulary end up discussing (even arguing) my ideas with different people who cannot understand what I'm saying and want to make me agree with them.

[mynameiskc]

i feel ya. samhain has recently been helping me come to terms with my female nature. i've never really held a high opinion of women, either, mainly because the ones around me have never really been anyone i want to emulate. i've frequently flet betrayed by my physical essence. i'm overwhelmingly female in appearance. it's annoying. i'm like a charicature of female. it takes time to be okay with who and what you are inside. i've found, eventually, that we all seem to be on a sliding scale, and we have to find comfort in our unique position on that scale, despite how other people will want to move us about.

[TDK-0]

Hey Casey (hope I got the name right)

At the moment I don't think I could come to terms with my female nature. I can't see even the slightest possibility of that to happen. But who knows, maybe I'm too young. I really don't want to come off as a narrow-minded person with this idea stuck in the head as a whim/trifle.

Thank you for the fast reply and support :)