Legitimite Gurus

[jnanic]

Hi

I'd like to start a discussion about legitimacy of a "guru". I personally do not follow a guru, but am curious how others see guru crediblity. Some (but by no means all) modern gurus or spiritual teachers seem to do the following:

1) Write lots of books or make lots of videos or tapes saying much the same thing in different ways it seems

2) Charge a lot of money for people to see them

3) Copyright what they say as the "truth" in their books and websites

4) Have sex with several of their followers

5) Ramble on and on in clever metaphysical speak that is not particularly simple or clear or down to earth and practical for everyday living

I do not believe Buddha or Jesus did these things or approached it this way. It is easy for anyone to claim to be enlightened or a spiritual master or a guru. Have I missed something? Thoughts anyone?

Peace and love
Jnanic

[Obscured By Clouds]

Its a sad fact of humanity, that people will claim they are this and that when in reality they are no better than the average man. Finding a real guru is similar to the search of a needle in a haystack. Its quite easy to tell that theyre false if theyre hungry for money and women.

[spook13]

Hi

I'd like to start a discussion about legitimacy of a "guru". I personally do not follow a guru, but am curious how others see guru crediblity. Some (but by no means all) modern gurus or spiritual teachers seem to do the following:

1) Write lots of books or make lots of videos or tapes saying much the same thing in different ways it seems

2) Charge a lot of money for people to see them

3) Copyright what they say as the "truth" in their books and websites

4) Have sex with several of their followers

5) Ramble on and on in clever metaphysical speak that is not particularly simple or clear or down to earth and practical for everyday living

I do not believe Buddha or Jesus did these things or approached it this way. It is easy for anyone to claim to be enlightened or a spiritual master or a guru. Have I missed something? Thoughts anyone?

Peace and love
Jnanic
You haven't missed anything...right on all points.

[Chodpa]

In the Vajrayana the guru is expected to exemplify the Buddha's teachings, thus gurus, for us rich Westerners, who are not indentured, but who can pick and choose, we can search and choose gurus who help us see what Buddha teaches in living, breathing form. This is very helpful. For instance one of my Dzogchen lamas upon being asked about whether prophecies about world destruction would bear fruit said, "I don 't know anything about those things, I'm just a simple yogi." Clearly pointing out what is and isn't important.

Clarity. A guru should clarify, and if one stays more confused or feels more lost through this association then ones guru is not a good one.

The best guru is the most honest one. Thus they will downplay supernatural effects and tout compassion and helping others - seva. Gurus who play up the mystical and supernatural and easy to baffle others nonsense are bad gurus, those who place emphasis on the present and service are helping one generate better karma. These are good gurus. The best guru is totally generous and gives one all the truth all at once and holds nothing back. They are few and far between and include my late lama Kunzang, and Namkhai Norbu, and only a few others. IMHO

May they live long.

[OnlyOne]

long lived long hair, babble burrbble oil an trubble.

[BlackBillBlake]

Its quite easy to tell that theyre false if theyre hungry for money and women.
That depends. If they make it clear that they like money and women, I don't really see a problem - I quite like both myself, and I'd be a bit uneasy about some guy in a loincloth who tells me that it will lead me to hell or whatever -
The ones who claim to be pure as the driven snow and actually get up to all manner of tricks are the one's to avoid.
Phoniness, deciet and hypocricy are far worse than sex or money.

Without money and sex, how long would life continue?

[OnlyOne]

like continues with you or without you when you tink like ah blacknigger.

[BlackBillBlake]

like continues with you or without you when you tink like ah blacknigger.
continues even if you think like white trash.

[OnlyOne]

oh, soh sorry, wuz refering to Swartzennigger, duh sexist babalonian governor.

[BlackBillBlake]

oh, soh sorry, wuz refering to Swartzennigger, duh sexist babalonian governor.
ok - my bad

[WayfaringStranger]

i am the only legitamate guru. i will begin your lessons after dinner. so what are we having?

[OnlyOne]

dick

[prismatism]

there are good gurus. but you can't just accept a guru without really getting to know them. and you do have to have standards. personally, i'd never trust a guru who was attatched to money or sex. why would i want to learn how to be like every other person in america? i'd want someone who was more advanced than me, that's the whole point.

money and sex aren't bad. when they replace real spiritual love of god, or love of whatever it is you value in your heart above everything else, and become worshipped, it ties you to your body. depending on your own personal goals, that can be good or bad. but i wouldn't want a guru like that.

sex and money, along with things like drugs, meat eating, disrespect to others, arrogance... they open us up to impurities. and i mean that in that if we are preoccupied with them for the way they make us feel, we will be more likely to put aside our ethics and be unpredictable in our actions if the opportunity to get them immediately arises. if you're teaching me to be honest and faithful, but i have a beautiful wife or husband and you're attatched to sex, your desire will overcome your words and what you know in your heart. it'll push it aside.

not to say those things are BAD, but if you have a guru, you're taking their word, holding them as an absolute authority. if you ask the same question every day, you want the same answer every day, no matter what the circumstances.

[BlackBillBlake]

So the only legit guru would be a sexually repressed pauper?

[ChiefCowpie]

there are good gurus. but you can't just accept a guru without really getting to know them. and you do have to have standards. personally, i'd never trust a guru who was attatched to money or sex.
maybeto become a guru, people should cut off their penis so people can know they are a good guru.... women gurus can cut off the pleasure areas of their vagina

this would solve all the problems

[themnax]

So the only legit guru would be a sexually repressed pauper?

no, but the only legitimate guru would be humble, self effacing, and not persue gratification where there was none to be found. neither repressing nor trading a clear conscounse for the persuit of anything. nor claiming great wisdom nor to be a guru at all. but only harmlessly creating and exploring and passing on as honestly and unbiasedly as he or she could, what they had seen and found and constructed, in doing so.

i don't believe in gurus who ask for money, nor to be worshipped, but there was one, totaly unarmed and all but naked, who marhed at the head of his fallowers, streight into the muzzels of hell, and somehow by doing so, or so the legend goes, liberated and created a nation, out from under the shadow of what was at the time, the most formidable and far reaching empire ever to exist on the face of this earth.

oh yah, and he had a wife and he was certainly not celibate, (though he damd sure didn't spend his life chaising skirts and little green pieces of paper), and his decendents remain involved in the political life of that nation today.

i doubt if i have to mention any names for most people to know who i'm talking about. though i'm sure at least a few fanatics will want to think i'm talking about their pet and not who i am.

(and i'm just as sure, the tyrannts running this world today, would label him a 'terrorist', though he never, that i know of, advocated injuring anyone)

=^^=
.../\...

[sejtzu]

Indeed, we all have the right to earn a living and so I believe a Guru has the right to sell a book.

[aghori baba]

Onlyone...I quess your hate spewed over when you assumed with your mighty white intellect that blackbillblake is a black person huh?. I am sure that you are aware that there are forums out there that specifically welcome that nigger rhetorics of yours.
I read some of your posts and think you are either in a mental hospital or should be on meds.

[Archemetis]

our culture is so weird about sex....its not the sex act that is impure in any way but the mindframe one enters the act with. celabasy is not a requirement for spirituallity, or enlightenment. neither is abstaning from money for that matter.

really the sex act has the potential as the quickest way to trancendance ....or rather a pure and true love does. that is what tantra teaches, and as far as i know tantra is the most potent teachings on the planet at this time.....its method, not philosophy.

an authentic guru is imposible to recognize if you dont undertand his teaching methods (not all teaching methods will work for everyone)....zen masters of old would often at random times viciously attack their followers. not out of anger, but because they knew that in the moment of fight or flight the mind stops.....and they wanted their followers to come to understand that state where the mind stops, and be at their center.

[aspirine]

How do I get this job?

Hi

I'd like to start a discussion about legitimacy of a "guru". I personally do not follow a guru, but am curious how others see guru crediblity. Some (but by no means all) modern gurus or spiritual teachers seem to do the following:

1) Write lots of books or make lots of videos or tapes saying much the same thing in different ways it seems

2) Charge a lot of money for people to see them

3) Copyright what they say as the "truth" in their books and websites

4) Have sex with several of their followers

5) Ramble on and on in clever metaphysical speak that is not particularly simple or clear or down to earth and practical for everyday living

I do not believe Buddha or Jesus did these things or approached it this way. It is easy for anyone to claim to be enlightened or a spiritual master or a guru. Have I missed something? Thoughts anyone?

Peace and love
Jnanic

[xexon]

True gurus are not people you can judge. You can't even know them as gurus if they don't want you to know.

A true guru can be anyone. They exist beyond stereotypes. It can be a beggar on the corner or the school janitor. You will not know them for who they are unless you are ready for what they offer.

You cannot seek a guru. They will find you when you're ready.

Most who seek are not.

They will get the fakes. And even the fakes ones will be guru for a while, because they will teach you the power of discrimination.

Work on yourselves. The teacher will appear when you're ready.



x

[repro-bait]

the very idea of a GURU is both appalling and at the same time hilarious.
for any intelligent person to be so enthralled is beyond my comprehension.and that includes the guy called jesus.

[xexon]

You're a creature of the mind then?

I don't wish to offend you when I say that. Everyone has a spiritual side to them whether they know it or not.

You're in love with your computer. The one between your ears. But it's abilities are limited to this world only. You're no better off than a tadpole in a tea cup. Your world is small.

A true guru will set you free of the mind and it's limitations. You won't know you've been a slave to it until someone knocks off your chains.

Most people, you see, don't know they were born into slavery.



x

[Bl4ck3n3D]

the very idea of a GURU is both appalling and at the same time hilarious.
for any intelligent person to be so enthralled is beyond my comprehension.and that includes the guy called jesus.

Because it is beyond your level of comprehension is why it is hillarious to you. However, that does not mean guru's do not exist, as we exist whether you want us to or not.

[crankyelbow]

People are who you accept them to be.

Everyone should seek to be a guru themselves - if you are lead blindly you cannot truly know where you are.

[ChiefCowpie]

People are who you accept them to be.

Everyone should seek to be a guru themselves - if you are lead blindly you cannot truly know where you are.
exactly, i want to be a guru and enlighten others

[BlackBillBlake]

I want to be a spaceman.

[ChiefCowpie]

I want to be a spaceman.

outer spaceman or inner spaceman?

or is there not a difference

or is there a difference?

[BlackBillBlake]

I meant let's go find a guru-free planet. I'm not sure there's much long term future here.

When I was about 5 I used to think that by the time I grew up, I could hope to be a spaceman. I even used to own a plastic ray gun, not dismilar in design to the one in your avatar pic. Maybe when I do grow up, I'll give up the idea. Perhaps I'll become a priest instead - at least then I'd have a secure income.


As to inner and outer space - seems to me it's probably all one continuum.
To move in different directions - in or out - needs different means.
Maybe the further out we go, the further in we go.

Sounds like hippy talk that last bit....

[rak]

Hi

I'd like to start a discussion about legitimacy of a "guru". I personally do not follow a guru, but am curious how others see guru crediblity. Some (but by no means all) modern gurus or spiritual teachers seem to do the following:

1) Write lots of books or make lots of videos or tapes saying much the same thing in different ways it seems

2) Charge a lot of money for people to see them

3) Copyright what they say as the "truth" in their books and websites

4) Have sex with several of their followers

5) Ramble on and on in clever metaphysical speak that is not particularly simple or clear or down to earth and practical for everyday living

I do not believe Buddha or Jesus did these things or approached it this way. It is easy for anyone to claim to be enlightened or a spiritual master or a guru. Have I missed something? Thoughts anyone?

Peace and love
Jnanic

Jesus would not fall under your category. He didn’t do his followers. His speech was clear.

[enlightenment-karma]

Hi

I'd like to start a discussion about legitimacy of a "guru". I personally do not follow a guru, but am curious how others see guru crediblity. Some (but by no means all) modern gurus or spiritual teachers seem to do the following:

1) Write lots of books or make lots of videos or tapes saying much the same thing in different ways it seems

2) Charge a lot of money for people to see them

3) Copyright what they say as the "truth" in their books and websites

4) Have sex with several of their followers

5) Ramble on and on in clever metaphysical speak that is not particularly simple or clear or down to earth and practical for everyday living

I do not believe Buddha or Jesus did these things or approached it this way. It is easy for anyone to claim to be enlightened or a spiritual master or a guru. Have I missed something? Thoughts anyone?

Peace and love
Jnanic
I completely agree with you - Its easy to spot the false guru, most of their purpose is to make money, they sell tapes and books and have many courses that they charge for. All the great teachers taught the truth as their duty, they did not ask for anything - although in some cases they were supported with the minimal necessities from their followers so they could teach.
But there have been true gurus in the past, the proof of their righteousness was in their words and actions, such as Jesus, Socrates, and Buddha - they dedicated themselves to teaching the truth, they had zero interest in profiteering, they did it as their duty. I have came across many gurus and I could easily discount them in a moment. That was before I met Tathagata.
I have known him for 18 years and during that time I have seen his tremendous effort and struggle to teach truth to people. He travels the world teaching, he asks for nothing in return and he teaches that you are your own messiah, you have to look after yourself, by the law of karma /cause and effect. He teaches do good - don't do bad, yes it sounds very simplistic, but the truth is simple.

A bean comes from a bean and you come from yourself and are making yourself throughout many lives. If you do good then you will make yourself better - if you do bad then you will make yourself worse - and you need wisdom to know if your actions are good or bad - you need to observe the world, watch yourself.

Tathagata says he has attained the perfect enlightenment
http://www.tathagata.co.uk

After his enlightenment a small lump appeared on his forehead and he calls this the eye of wisdom, or also the third eye, and says its the physical proof of enlightenment. You can read his teachings online and ask him any questions you want, his website does not sell anything at all, just gives free teachings.

[Chodpa]

That's a fucking joke right? Hahahahahhahahhahahahah

[ChiefCowpie]

i don't think it makes any difference in one qualified to be a guru if one was born legitimate or out of wedlock

i might even prefer the one born illegitimate cuz they would know their real legitimacy is in their cosmic birthright and not their history

[crankyelbow]

I completely agree with you - Its easy to spot the false guru, most of their purpose is to make money, they sell tapes and books and have many courses that they charge for. All the great teachers taught the truth as their duty, they did not ask for anything - although in some cases they were supported with the minimal necessities from their followers so they could teach.
But there have been true gurus in the past, the proof of their righteousness was in their words and actions, such as Jesus, Socrates, and Buddha - they dedicated themselves to teaching the truth, they had zero interest in profiteering, they did it as their duty. I have came across many gurus and I could easily discount them in a moment. That was before I met Tathagata.
I have known him for 18 years and during that time I have seen his tremendous effort and struggle to teach truth to people. He travels the world teaching, he asks for nothing in return and he teaches that you are your own messiah, you have to look after yourself, by the law of karma /cause and effect. He teaches do good - don't do bad, yes it sounds very simplistic, but the truth is simple.

A bean comes from a bean and you come from yourself and are making yourself throughout many lives. If you do good then you will make yourself better - if you do bad then you will make yourself worse - and you need wisdom to know if your actions are good or bad - you need to observe the world, watch yourself.

Tathagata says he has attained the perfect enlightenment
http://www.tathagata.co.uk

After his enlightenment a small lump appeared on his forehead and he calls this the eye of wisdom, or also the third eye, and says its the physical proof of enlightenment. You can read his teachings online and ask him any questions you want, his website does not sell anything at all, just gives free teachings."Even though the teaching of the Enlightened Being is very easily taught, people who don't open their eyes to the truth of the world always have difficulties in accepting the teaching and practicing it."

The man knows what he's talking about.

[mara-aum]

i believe every person's guru is within & synchronicity will lead each of us to different people throughout our lives that act as mini-gurus...you know "when the student is ready, the teacher appears" -these mini-gurus come and go as needed throughout one's life--it could be as simple as a stranger saying something that altars your perception about a thing for life--for a moment that person was a guru.

but really the guru is within us all.

[gdkumar]

Hare Krishna!

From Mara-aum

i believe every person's guru is within & synchronicity will lead each of us to different people throughout our lives that act as mini-gurus...you know "when the student is ready, the teacher appears" -these mini-gurus come and go as needed throughout one's life--it could be as simple as a stranger saying something that altars your perception about a thing for life--for a moment that person was a guru.

but really the guru is within us all.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Very well and truly said, thank you. God is omnipresent, He is outside and inside us as well. So, it is always better to go for the nearest best Guru - God , who is within us. But it is the most difficult thing to do as we, as aspirants, cannot see, hear or feel Him. That is why we look outward for a Guru (As His representative) of flesh and blood.

Love,
Kumar.

[radareyes]

If we're talking about identifying legitimate gurus in the strictest and most concrete sense of the term (i.e. individuals who are fully enlightened and only wish to uplift the consciousness of others in whatever way they're capable of doing), then we have a difficult task ahead of us indeed. IMO, the majority of gurus out there are fraudulent and/or charlatanistic in one way or another. These include:

Osho
Swami Muktananda
Adi Da Samraj
Chogyam Trungpa
Prem Rawat (Maharaji)
Andrew Cohen (as well as his cohort the "Pandit" Ken Wilber)
Frederick Lenz
Maharishi Mahesh Yogi

Then there are the "spiritual teacher" types who I don't think would claim to be enlightened but by definition teach diluted versions of fundamental spiritual principles (and that's not to say that these people can't be beneficial to some individuals at certain intermediate stages of their spiritual paths -- they just don't represent the pinnacle of consciousness):

Dr. Wayne Dyer
Deepak Chopra
Ram Dass
James Redfield
Neale Donald Walsh
Anthony Robbins
Michael Murphy
Dan Millman
The Dalai Lama
Thich Nhat Hanh (unsure as to whether he claims full enlightenment)
Cheri Huber
Alan Watts
Pema Chodron
Lama Surya Das
Mary Baker Eddy (Christian Science founder; No doubt in possession of great insight and probably supernatural abilitiies. Too dogmatic and bound by orthodoxy to be fully enlightened)
Krishnamurti (Very progressive for his time, but too fixated on cerebral realms and didn't exhibit many "transcendent" qualities aside from being generally mild-mannered and good natured)
Don Beck (Spiral Dynamics perpetuator and arguably co-founder. Egomaniac.)


My own personal jury is out on these guys:
Paramahansa Yogananda (went through many hierarchal transformations of consciousness in his autobiography and I was always unsure if he was professing to be fully enlightened. Also has some pretty rigid, borderline fundamentalist teachings interspersed with his many profound and pioneering ones.)
Gurdjieff ("shocking" people into enlightenment possibly a little extreme?)
Sai Baba (many scandalous accusations against him, orthodox approach in terms of teachings, possibly overly reliant on divine "parlor tricks" (assuming of course that they are legitimate manifestions, which is a definite assumption))
Sri Aurobindo (Too much fixation on philosophy and specific manifestations of higher consciousness at the expense of the fundamentals?)
Babaji (True 5000 yr. old avatar or myth?)
Ammachi (maybe a saint but not enlightened?)
Carlos Castaneda/"Don Juan" (too "out there"?)

I personally believe that the following are completely and legitimately enlightened as well as trustworthy (but of course the ego is always capable of distorting truth if the ego-bound individual permits it):

Eckhart Tolle
Gangaji
Ramana Maharshi
Shunryu Suzuki
Eli Jaxon Bear
Roshi Philip Kapleau
Byron Katie
Neem Karoli Baba
Morihei Ueshiba

I have no doubt that there are more legitimate ones, but I wouldn't want to get overly speculative about gurus who I haven't scrutinized intensely (as I have for the above). I've also omitted many historical teacher/gurus/avatars who were very likely enlightened (e.g. Milarepa, Rumi, St. Francis of Assisi, Daruma, Krishna, etc.)

Travis

[xexon]

If you're going to judge gurus, where are you going to start?

If you did not know them personally, all you have are the words of others. The "others' are not likely any more qualified to make this judgement than yourself.

Be careful of preconceived notions. A true guru is an individual thing.



x

[radareyes]

If you're going to judge gurus, where are you going to start?


If you did not know them personally, all you have are the words of others. The "others' are not likely any more qualified to make this judgement than yourself.x

Ridiculous. I have their books, webcasts, videos, and satsangs. And most importantly, I have my discerning and perceptual faculties.


Be careful of preconceived notions. A true guru is an individual thing.
x

I was basing my assessments on the parameters that I established during the opening sentence of my post (hoping that it may discourage redundant posts like yours -- no offense). As others posts have already established, a "guru" (which in sanskrit simply means "dispeller of darkness") could be an experience, an idea, or even a charlatan. The omnipresent nature of enlightened consciousness cannot be bound by external conditions.

It is very likely that your unwillingness to devote yourself to truth in and of itself prevents you from taking the risk of utilizing your discernment. Just a thought...


Travis

[damiennotloc]

There is only one true Guru I give any credibility, and that is David Bowie. That man is more remarkable, groundbreaking, revolutionary than any I have seen the like of. Sorry if I have taken the topic of this forum out of context, but if there was anyone I believed in enough to dedicate my life to following, and believed that he saw with a clarity so greater than my own that my judgment would be rendered obsolete in comparison, than it would be him.

[xexon]

As fate would have it, I'm downloading his "Let's Dance" album as I write. :)

He lives in NYC now. And is far less interesting than he used to be.



x

[edenfield]

I prefer people to guru's for self knowledge anyday...I can't react to a guru...so they don't teach me anything

[xexon]

Guru can be anything that teaches you. But as you progress, a real guru will take notice of you.

They come around and pick the ripes apples. No problemo.

So get as much light as you can.


x

[edenfield]

i don't need to be picked i need to be planted..http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

[xexon]

The fact that we're having this conversation means you already are.

Worldly people don't ask the right kind of questions. You do.


x

[edenfield]

hey obi wan,,,i like the anthony de mello man though,,,he maketh me laff...makes me see the nonsense in my nonsense

[Bhaskar]

The legitimate guru us the person you meet when you become a legitimate disciple. Until then even if you were to meet Christ or the Buddha, you would not gel with them.