Mark of the beast: it's here

[Epiphany]

"He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or in his forehead so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark." - Revelation 13:16

The most dreaded prophecy of Revelation that the antichrist will use against the children of God. A mark that, unlike a social security number, will prevent those who do not receive it from buying or selling products. Unless this mark is identified on your body, you will not be able to purchase even the basic
necessities of life. Nor will you be able to make money.

In 2001, Applied Digital Solutions introduced, "Digital Angel". Since the fears of September 11th still reign in the hearts of many, this syringe-injectable biochip, no longer than a grain of rice, was being aggressively marketed. Being offered as an error proof solution to do anything from tracking down missing alzheimers patients, to finding kidnapped children, this chip gives people a sense of security.

The idea of the mark of the beast is also being supported by major corporations and security officials because of the many solutions it promises. A implant chip can hold not only all your medical information, but also your personal information. Similar to credit/debit cards, the implant chip is your personal identification number. Unlike a card, the implant, that is formulated with your body's DNA, rules out the possibility of identity theft and fraudulent
use.


On July 12th 2004, Mexican Attorney General had 160 of his employees receive this chip and it is now required to enter a new federal anti-crime information center.
The Baja Beach Club in Spain has used them as electronic wallets to buy drinks. Sales have also taken place in Russia, Switzerland, Venezuela and Colombia.
An article from CNET news on July 27th, 2004 says that to date, about 7,000 VeriChip tags have been sold, and approximately 1,000 have now been inserted in humans.
Soon, this chip will be sweeping the land. Commercials will be plaguing the television and radio. Our children will be introduced to catch phrases such as, "getting chipped". A good idea? of course. That is what we are made to think anyway. Satan is good at temptation, remember... king of liars?
The main point of the mark? Controlling the masses. The Bible tells us that the antichrist will force all human beings to receive this mark. Basically, this is the identification between Christians and non-believers. Those who take the mark pledge their allegiance to the antichrist, and those don't will suffer under extreme conditions. George Orwell's expressed idea of a government tracking system in his book, "1984", is proving to be true and 2,000 year old prophecy is coming to pass. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the End Times.

[Real American]

Very interesting. However, I don't plan on being here when the Anti-Christ reveals himself. You see, we Christians will no longer be here.

[loverofthewoods]

all us crazy conspiracy theorists have been warning about this for years...there is alot more to come.


also i love it how after all these signs of what people like me have been talking of are now becoming reality...we're still crazy because the end we talk of is to crazy to be real...its time to shed teh fear and open our eyes as a people


http://www.adsx.com/prodservpart/verichip.html

do a simple google of RFID chips and see what all you find...we are so incredible "trained" as a people that we dont even recognize the bars on our cell doors

[Epiphany]

Very interesting. However, I don't plan on being here when the Anti-Christ reveals himself. You see, we Christians will no longer be here.

That kind of bothers me that this is still being taught. Yes, all of us born-again Christians will be raptured up to meet Jesus and then the marriage super will take place, but this doesn't happen until Jesus returns. Jesus doesn't return until after the mark is enforced, after Israel is under the most severe persecution from the antichrist. I'm not really sure why most mainstream Christian and Baptist churches still teach this.

[campbell34]

That kind of bothers me that this is still being taught. Yes, all of us born-again Christians will be raptured up to meet Jesus and then the marriage super will take place, but this doesn't happen until Jesus returns. Jesus doesn't return until after the mark is enforced, after Israel is under the most severe persecution from the antichrist. I'm not really sure why most mainstream Christian and Baptist churches still teach this.
Christians will be taken before the tribulation.

Revelation

10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. 11I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.


I think both you and true american should read this webiste http://r-campbell34.tripod.com/babylon/ (javascript:OpenWindow('http://r-campbell34.tripod.com/babylon/')) It is a detailed paper my dad wrote about the end times and I bet it is a story you have never heard. And my did not learn this from the church.

[FreakyJoeMan]

I always thought that those barcodes are the mark of the beast!

[campbell34]

sorry try this....



http://r-campbell34.tripod.com/babylon

[Epiphany]

That was very interesting, campbell34. I like Irvin Baxtor's myself. (http://www.endtime.com/). He has a bible study on the end times that is mind blowing.

Actually, 1 thessalonians 17 says, "Afer that, those of us who are still alive and left will be caught up together with them (those who have died) in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."

[tom]

You state that 1000 of the chips have already been inserted into people. I believe the population of the earth is roughly 6,000,000,000 people. I wouldnt put too much stock in that theory just yet. Plus a lot of other stuff is going to happen before the mark of the beast comes into action. Don't sweat it.

[dhs]

I'm sorry, as screwed up as some of the ideas that come out of governments/people in power - there's no chance that requiring a chip like this will stand up in the court of law. I have no issues with having an ID on me as well as having a SS#, but nope, sorry implanted chips is not an idea that will fly. I suggest you return Bladerunner, I think you've watched it one too many times.

[Epiphany]

The Bible says it will happen, so it will happen.

I'm not exactly sweating it Tom, just making a statement about it.

[FreakyJoeMan]

'S funny, cause a fortune cookie i got once said I'd have passionate sex with Natalie Portman! Woooohoooo!

[SimpleMan]

The people who have passed will be brought up to heaven...then those who are still alive.


The rest well...they will have to go through the great tribulation.

I'm reading the left behind series...great books...I'm on book 10 right now.

[Epiphany]

I'm sorry, as screwed up as some of the ideas that come out of governments/people in power - there's no chance that requiring a chip like this will stand up in the court of law. I have no issues with having an ID on me as well as having a SS#, but nope, sorry implanted chips is not an idea that will fly. I suggest you return Bladerunner, I think you've watched it one too many times.
People already have them http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/techinnovations/2003-07-17-human-chip_x.htm

[Epiphany]

Revelation 16:2: "The first angel went and poured out his bowl on the land and ugly and painful sores broke out on the people who had worshipped the mark of beast and his image."

The implant chips that are already being recieved are powered by a lithium battery. Because of the material, the implant itself must be incased in biocompatible glass before piercing your skin. What I find interesting is that the same people who wanted to get a spiderman toy out of a box of a cereal, due to the fact that it came with a lithium battery, are the same ones who are promoting the use of the implant chip.

painful sores of the Bible - possible malfunction in the chip that leads the lithium to produce painful marks on the skin of the wearer? Makes sense.

[Sera Michele]

Could be a number of things (the ungly, painful sores). Boils, chickenpox, smallpox, sunburn (kinda makes you worry about global warming), bug bites, etc....


My church used to say tattoos were the mark of the beast. Another one I had been to said credit cards were. People before that thought social security was.

[seamonster66]

PLEASE......hahahaha

[JesusDiedForU]

" . . . and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."-- Revelation 13:15-17



Will you take it?





http://www.greaterthings.com/Images/Beast/hand_rev.jpg


I know much everyone on here likes secular links so here you go:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/DailyNews/chipimplant020225.html?Scitechad=true

[Epiphany]

Will you take it?


NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!







You know what's worse? The fact that those who have already gotten chips are thinking it's so wonderful, that their children now have it.

[Epiphany]

Just making note of the fact that it is here

[Sera Michele]

You are aware that this paticular chip isn't going in anyone's hand or forehead, like your prophecy in the bible states.

And please don't assume I am a proponent of this chip just because I don't think it's the mark of the beast...

[Burbot]

Is that what Manson was trying to do with the swastika in the forehead?

[Epiphany]

You are aware that this paticular chip isn't going in anyone's hand or forehead, like your prophecy in the bible states.
Interestingly enough.... at first scientists believed there was a discrepency in the Bible when they saw the impression of the nails in the wrists of Jesus's hands. Critics have stated for years that if Jesus was nailed to the palm of his hands, the weight of the body would have torn his hands from the nails. Upon checking the original Greek text, the found that the word, "Cheir", covered the entire hand area, including the wrist and the forearm. Currently, the implant chips are being placed in the forearm.

[Raving Sultan]

http://www.konformist.com/images/2000/bush.gif

[Peppy]

Raving Sultan knows the score. Please all americans out there don't vote for him again. and some how find away to stop him cheating his way back in again.

[Alsharad]

Before you guys go off on dispensationalist theories, you might look into preterism and partial preterism. Until the 1800s, the preterists were dominant. In a nutshell, the preterists believe that the Great Tribulation has already happened (in 70 A.D.) I am not saying that they are right, but the preterists have some VERY good arguments. I think that I am going to end up being a partial preterist (I have been a dispensationalist for years). Partial preterists believe that some things (like the Great Triublation) have occurred already while others (like the Great Judgment) have not. For more information, you guys might look for documentation on preterism. Just keep an open mind and, more importantly, an eye for what is scriptural and what is not. Read up on hermeneutics too.

[#include]

http://hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=448060#post448060

[Kilgore Trout]

'S funny, cause a fortune cookie i got once said I'd have passionate sex with Natalie Portman! Woooohoooo!
Awesome!!!

I got one a few days ago that said, "you can resist anything except temptation".

Actually, that was kind of creepy.

[Soulless||Chaos]

Basically, this is the identification between Christians and non-believers.
I am quite sure there are many non-christians who would refuse to have an implant like that. I know I would.

[Sera Michele]

As would I, and I am not a christian.

[airforcedrew]

I just think this is another example of how the bible is abused to be anti science and technology.

[Sera Michele]

Yeah, like I said, my church used to say that things like social security and credit cards were the mark of the beast. Then they totally freaked out when those bar-code tattoo's got popular.

But I lack more trust in big brother at the moment than I do any god, that's why I would refuse some chip implant, and would never have one on my child. I figure, if I'm worried about someone taking my kid I'll watch her. That's what my parents did for me, and it seems to have worked.

[StonerBill]

too right, i despise the whole safety thing. well never be able to experience the freedom our parents did in the 60s and 70s because of all this safety bullshit. id not let anyone put that thing in me. its a great idea for money and to a lesser extend, medical details and stuff, but its not a great idea at all as a tracking device and any person who would put that in their child would have to be 100% conservative or something

with that stuff about this happening in AD 70, ill look it up, but i find it hard to beleive since the NT (at least revelations!) wasnt meant to have been written yet (was it? no, tell me, was it? oh ill jsut look it up)

[Epiphany]

The chips are being promoted in certain public schools as of lately. In July, a primary school in Japan decided to use RFID chips to track their children. They are being placed in children's schoolbags, name tags or clothing.

[airforcedrew]

The bad things about these chips, is that one day they will try to make them the most convienient way of purchasing/traveling. Forcing conventional methods near obsolete.

*They also use these chips in spec ops troops for tracking.

Done a little bit of researching on these chips, and whatever they decide to use in these to power them make cause radiation poisoning. (Long term tests havn't been done yet)

Revelation mentions that people recieving these chips will get boils, and symptoms simular to lepracy. (Same symtoms as radiation poisoning.)

[Epiphany]

The bad things about these chips, is that one day they will try to make them the most convienient way of purchasing/traveling. Forcing conventional methods near obsolete.

*They also use these chips in spec ops troops for tracking.

Done a little bit of researching on these chips, and whatever they decide to use in these to power them make cause radiation poisoning. (Long term tests havn't been done yet)

Revelation mentions that people recieving these chips will get boils, and symptoms simular to lepracy. (Same symtoms as radiation poisoning.)

Yeah, I mentioned that a few pages back, more specifically about the lithium

[::TheConcreteGirl::]

Thats a scary thought..I remember hearing somethig about it on 20/20 a few years ago...I thought about it last night too actually..and for the people who say the wouldnt take the chip...would you still refuse if you were forced into exile where you couldt buy thigs (food etc.) of have a job?? Its going to be extremely hard. Im not trying to dissuade anyone..i dont plan on taking any chip or barcode or aything else...but its not gonna be as easy as "Im not gonna take it..ill justcontinue with my life" Refusing the mark in the end, is refusing life as you know it.

[Soulless||Chaos]

Hehe it's not just you christians who would refuse the so called 'mark of the beast'... :rolleyes: I sure as hell am not getting some damn chip implanted in me... :rolleyes:

[Epiphany]

That is good to hear, Chaos, but it definitely won't be easy. Those who don't take the mark will not be able to make money, nor will they be able to purchase. Also, they will assume that you are a Christian since you refuse it, and they will persecute you.

[Sera Michele]

That is all just a huge assumption...

There has been no indication as of yet that you will HAVE to have this chip to make money or spend money. In fact, since America is pretty big on it's civil liberties, I don't see anything like that happening anytime soon.

And since America and it's leaders generally claim to be christian, I doubt they will single out these non-chip users as christians for persecution.

However, my entire lack of trust in our gov't, especially our law-enforcement branches, would keep me from getting a chip. Has nothing to do with religion. And I think you would find that same answer from MANY people.

[Kharakov]

However, my entire lack of trust in our gov't, especially our law-enforcement branches, would keep me from getting a chip. Has nothing to do with religion. And I think you would find that same answer from MANY people.If you really believe God would let you be harmed for getting a chip.... should God let you buy and sell merchandise? Maybe you aren't ready to have these priviledges if you doubt God. Maybe seeing all of the other people who have the chip (theist and atheist alike) get tangible benefits will cause you to rethink your fundamentalist (read pharisee/saducee/catholic/etc.) position on God.

[Soulless||Chaos]

Haha yeah it's more likely they would target people without them and claim them to be sinners and terrorists! This country unfortunately is starting to have some theocratical tendencies... That is not at all a good thing...

[Sera Michele]

If you really believe God would let you be harmed for getting a chip.... should God let you buy and sell merchandise? Maybe you aren't ready to have these priviledges if you doubt God. Maybe seeing all of the other people who have the chip (theist and atheist alike) get tangible benefits will cause you to rethink your fundamentalist (read pharisee/saducee/catholic/etc.) position on God.
What the hell made you think I have some sort of fundamentalist position on god?

[::TheConcreteGirl::]

That is all just a huge assumption...

There has been no indication as of yet that you will HAVE to have this chip to make money or spend money. In fact, since America is pretty big on it's civil liberties, I don't see anything like that happening anytime soon.

And since America and it's leaders generally claim to be christian, I doubt they will single out these non-chip users as christians for persecution.

However, my entire lack of trust in our gov't, especially our law-enforcement branches, would keep me from getting a chip. Has nothing to do with religion. And I think you would find that same answer from MANY people.
Ok..maybe its an ssumption that these chips are the mark..maybe not..but the fact is, that there WILL be a mark..and it WILL NOT be something we are given a lot of freedom in, the bible tells us that... And dont be fooled..Satan is the great deciever and the mark will of course initially come with lots of perks and such to make you think its a good thing.

[Soulless||Chaos]

Ok..maybe its an ssumption that these chips are the mark..maybe not..but the fact is, that there WILL be a mark..and it WILL NOT be something we are given a lot of freedom in, the bible tells us that... And dont be fooled..Satan is the great deciever and the mark will of course initially come with lots of perks and such to make you think its a good thing.
Though it may be a fact that the bible says so, the bible saying so makes nothing a fact, merely theory and speculation ( or delusion... :p). As for the second part of your post, you mean like christianity? Haha :p Perhaps your whole religion is a deception? As you say satan is the great deciever, and that would be a fairly great deception... I mean I'd laugh! Hehe whatever... :rolleyes:

[::TheConcreteGirl::]

well..the whole topic on it being 'the mark of the beast' is a christian reference...and the whole discussion was on the mark of the beast... Im christian so to me, what the bible says is not thoery or specualtion, its truth. ..as for the 2nd part of what you said.... thats just..confusing and really desnt make much sense..are you trying to suggest htat my whole belief system is decieving me into worshipping something that I hate? that..doesnt make much sense...

[Bug_Man]

I live by the lyrics of Black Sabbath in my daily activities.

[Soulless||Chaos]

well..the whole topic on it being 'the mark of the beast' is a christian reference...and the whole discussion was on the mark of the beast... Im christian so to me, what the bible says is not thoery or specualtion, its truth. ..as for the 2nd part of what you said.... thats just..confusing and really desnt make much sense..are you trying to suggest htat my whole belief system is decieving me into worshipping something that I hate? that..doesnt make much sense...
Hehe well I wouldn't expect you to understand... That's the idea... :rolleyes:

[Soulless||Chaos]

Yes, fear is their tool of choice, that and ignorance...

[Sera Michele]

Hehe well I wouldn't expect you to understand... That's the idea... :rolleyes:
Well I understood it, and thought it made complete sense! And I liked how you put it!

Though it may be a fact that the bible says so, the bible saying so makes nothing a fact

There isn't anything that bugs me more than a christian that tries to present their faith as fact. Anything that takes faith to believe cannot be fact. It's a pretty simple idea, really. Yet some want to go around preaching their reigion as fact, when even the bible tells you that it needs to be accepted through faith.

As far as a mark, every generation of christians have had their "mark". When social security was proposed many christian groups had a fit about that (just like with these chips) claiming it was the mark of the beast. My church once said tattoo's were. Then they wanted to say credit cards were.

Christians would do a lot better if they stopped preaching hellfire and doom to scare the masses into conversion. What are they going to do next, start up the inquisition?

Ever heard the saying "You catch more flies with honey than vinegar."

Telling everyone they are going to die is not going to gain you any favor...

[::TheConcreteGirl::]

I never meat to say that The bible is fact to everyone..I know it not..but I was posting from a christian standpoint and Christians do usually take the bible as fact..

Sera, I have to say, I agree with what you said about Christians and the preachig of hellfire..I posted in they "christians are hypocrites" thread the same thing basically. But I dont think that this thread was started to cause fear to unbelievers...It was just expressing a view about something that could chage lives for a lot of people.

A lot of people are right when they say some christians need to practise tolerance for other beliefs but I also think its a two way street.

[Soulless||Chaos]

Well it's not fact whether you believe it or not, as a fact can be proven whereas things based solely on faith cannot be, regardless of your belief in them... :rolleyes: Don't mean to be rude or anything... :rolleyes:

[Kharakov]

What the hell made you think I have some sort of fundamentalist position on god?I don't. I was adding my thoughts to your statement about not trusting the government. :)

[thumontico]

The 'end of the world' will occur because of neo-cons, not 'God'. Focus on the real world and vote Kerry next Tuesday if you want to continue living much longer.

[psilonaut]

Ever since Christ made his ascension to the heavens people have been looking for signs that he will return. Remeber the year 2000? yea...

[Sera Michele]

I don't. I was adding my thoughts to your statement about not trusting the government. :)
Ah, phew....I was hoping I never gave that impression! :H

[BlackGuardXIII]

The 'end of the world' will occur because of neo-cons, not 'God'. Focus on the real world and vote Kerry next Tuesday if you want to continue living much longer.
the concept of an end of the world is bizarre to me, it will not end, and even we, the humans, will not completely disappear. Some will go on. Kerry answers to the same bosses as Bush. It has not mattered which party wins for 80 years.

[brothersun]

my grandfather has this huge mole one his face. Its like split in half and has a couple long black hairs growing out of it. Now if you seen it you would swear its the mark of the beast. And my grandmother says the devil put it there....

[Epiphany]

The most interesting aspect is the fact that, before 9/11, the majority of people would not accept the idea of an implant chip. After the attack, it is now being accepted as a means of security. It has been stated several times that because of this horrible incident, that the chip is now met with a well response.

Many people think it's a wonderful idea... we have onstar on cars incase of an emergency, computer chip implants that can save a persons life, find a missing/kidnapped child, and the convinence of the RFID chip for stocking purposes. These current advances in technology are a great idea. However, the intended use of them is not. GPS - Global positioning system... Big Brother really will be watching. Onstar can unlock your car doors now, but what will you do when they purposely lock them? What will you do when your every move is being tracked on a computer by the implant chip in your arm?

[Soulless||Chaos]

Hehe that's when you go crazy and start setting off EMP devices... :rolleyes:

[BlackGuardXIII]

The most interesting aspect is the fact that, before 9/11, the majority of people would not accept the idea of an implant chip. After the attack, it is now being accepted as a means of security. It has been stated several times that because of this horrible incident, that the chip is now met with a well response.

Many people think it's a wonderful idea... we have onstar on cars incase of an emergency, computer chip implants that can save a persons life, find a missing/kidnapped child, and the convinence of the RFID chip for stocking purposes. These current advances in technology are a great idea. However, the intended use of them is not. GPS - Global positioning system... Big Brother really will be watching. Onstar can unlock your car doors now, but what will you do when they purposely lock them? What will you do when your every move is being tracked on a computer by the implant chip in your arm?
Tim McVeigh claimed the army put one in him.

[Epiphany]

Actually, they are planning on chipping the military. They are also chipping prison inmates.

[BlackGuardXIII]

Actually, they are planning on chipping the military. They are also chipping prison inmates.
did they chip him?

[northernlehigh97]

The whole chip thing is scary...I think people should just let God be God, and not try to be God themselves.

[airforcedrew]

They have already chipped the military.
We now have the "white common access card" instead of the green geneva conventions card. The new card has a big gold chip in it. Looking on the back of my card it says (for the chip) SCHLUMBERGER ACCESS 32K V2. We always have to have our ID on us at all times also.

[BlackGuardXIII]

They have already chipped the military.
We now have the "white common access card" instead of the green geneva conventions card. The new card has a big gold chip in it. Looking on the back of my card it says (for the chip) SCHLUMBERGER ACCESS 32K V2. We always have to have our ID on us at all times also.
It is not like what I heard that McVeigh allegedly claimed, that the chip made him do it.

Knowing exactly where you are on the battlefield may save your life.

It is all in the intent.

[JohnnyATL]

did u ever think that the idea for this came from revelations like someone read it and was like hmmm thats a good idea

[BlackGuardXIII]

did u ever think that the idea for this came from revelations like someone read it and was like hmmm thats a good idea
Oh come on, next you'll say that Jesus read all the prophecies about the messiah that were available easily to him, and then set out to fulfill them.

lol

wait a minute....

[Soulless||Chaos]

Haha beat me to it... :rolleyes:

[JohnnyATL]

i mean honestly its very concivable that some one was like a worldwide id would be a good idea and got that from the bible.

[BlackGuardXIII]

Haha beat me to it... :rolleyes:
Have a rep point for my rude butting in. You do know I was joking, right?

I don't want big bad Satan breathing down my neck for all eternity. That sounds nasty...

[BlackGuardXIII]

i mean honestly its very concivable that some one was like a worldwide id would be a good idea and got that from the bible.
Of course, I had an idea about 15 years ago that we could use the implementation of a new worldwide 13 month calendar to unite the world, then found out this week that it has been in the works for 50 years.
It is probable whenever there is a good idea, you wont be the only one to think of it.

[JohnnyATL]

I agree

Who is that in your sig pic

[Soulless||Chaos]

Have a rep point for my rude butting in. You do know I was joking, right?

I don't want big bad Satan breathing down my neck for all eternity. That sounds nasty...
Hehe just reminded of a strange book I glanced through once... :rolleyes:

[BlackGuardXIII]

I agree

Who is that in your sig pic
BlackGuardXIII on top of Mount Cheam, Remembrance Day 2000

[headymoechick]

I think you all have very strong opinions and good points. To those who do not follow Christ, you can take this with as many grains of salt as you wish, but to those fellow Christians who are worried about the mark of the beast, please read revalations closely. There are a few events that are going to happen before the mark of the beast takes place that we simply could not miss. I do beleive that the end times are near, but not yet. Also, for there to be a mark of the beast, there has to be a beast first. Granted Bush sometimes seems beastly, but he is only in power in America. The true Anti-Christ will come to power of the globe in a very cunning charming way. The chip you guys discussed IS scary, though. I wouldn't take it due to the fact that I'd rather be a little unsafe than have the govt. be able to track my every move.

[Sera Michele]

Oh come on, next you'll say that Jesus read all the prophecies about the messiah that were available easily to him, and then set out to fulfill them.

lol

wait a minute....haha

But I'm still not getting a chip. However, if I was in the military in battle I would. It isn't like the things are permanant.

[gnrm23]

Oh come on, next you'll say that Jesus read all the prophecies about the messiah that were available easily to him, and then set out to fulfill them.

lol

wait a minute....

you haven't been reading _the passover plot_ again, have you?
;)

[BlackGuardXIII]

you haven't been reading _the passover plot_ again, have you?
;)
If it is a researched theory, then hell ya, gimme the researchers name, and I will read it this week.
I love plots, lots of plots, so i can connect the dots, and see wots got us caught in knots by grotty robots who sought yachts.

he he he

[forest_pixie84]

"He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or in his forehead so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark." - Revelation 13:16

The most dreaded prophecy of Revelation that the antichrist will use against the children of God. A mark that, unlike a social security number, will prevent those who do not receive it from buying or selling products. Unless this mark is identified on your body, you will not be able to purchase even the basic
necessities of life. Nor will you be able to make money.

In 2001, Applied Digital Solutions introduced, "Digital Angel". Since the fears of September 11th still reign in the hearts of many, this syringe-injectable biochip, no longer than a grain of rice, was being aggressively marketed. Being offered as an error proof solution to do anything from tracking down missing alzheimers patients, to finding kidnapped children, this chip gives people a sense of security.

The idea of the mark of the beast is also being supported by major corporations and security officials because of the many solutions it promises. A implant chip can hold not only all your medical information, but also your personal information. Similar to credit/debit cards, the implant chip is your personal identification number. Unlike a card, the implant, that is formulated with your body's DNA, rules out the possibility of identity theft and fraudulent
use.

On July 12th 2004, Mexican Attorney General had 160 of his employees receive this chip and it is now required to enter a new federal anti-crime information center.
The Baja Beach Club in Spain has used them as electronic wallets to buy drinks. Sales have also taken place in Russia, Switzerland, Venezuela and Colombia.
An article from CNET news on July 27th, 2004 says that to date, about 7,000 VeriChip tags have been sold, and approximately 1,000 have now been inserted in humans.
Soon, this chip will be sweeping the land. Commercials will be plaguing the television and radio. Our children will be introduced to catch phrases such as, "getting chipped". A good idea? of course. That is what we are made to think anyway. Satan is good at temptation, remember... king of liars?
The main point of the mark? Controlling the masses. The Bible tells us that the antichrist will force all human beings to receive this mark. Basically, this is the identification between Christians and non-believers. Those who take the mark pledge their allegiance to the antichrist, and those don't will suffer under extreme conditions. George Orwell's expressed idea of a government tracking system in his book, "1984", is proving to be true and 2,000 year old prophecy is coming to pass. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the End Times.
Inventions are only here today because someone had to think of them yesterday. I wonder if those chips would even exist if someone hadn't put the idea of them in a book as widely read as the bible.

If you believe that you can, and you do, then you are right. But if you believe you can't, and you don't, you are still right.- some guy

[BlackGuardXIII]

I would be curious to know if Rome had any type of plan for tattooing the masses back in those days... it is not that far fetched. branding the common folk to better control them. We still use the terms membership, citizenship, ownership, 'ship' is from legal agreements back in the Roman Navy days denoting submission to the authority of the ship's captain. It is the birth of the control of the people. Our legal system is very Roman, and the corporate laws are from marine laws. Luckily for us, in 1215 the Magna Carta gave the commoner the right to not be owned by the state.

[BobbinBecca]

They have already chipped the military.
We now have the "white common access card" instead of the green geneva conventions card. The new card has a big gold chip in it. Looking on the back of my card it says (for the chip) SCHLUMBERGER ACCESS 32K V2. We always have to have our ID on us at all times also.
32KV2 if you translate the letters in their place in the alphabet this would be
3211232 then add in groups of three it's 662, whew! That was close, the mark is supposed to be three sixes, right? How come nobody's worried about a package of stamps being $6.66 now for 20 37cent stamps? I'm a little
And what about cell phones? They're supposed to get the chip implant technology too so you can just scan your phone to deduct funds for a purchase. The cell phone, where do you salways see it? In somebody's hand or plastered on their head. And it may cause cancer like the radar cop who left his gun on and pointed toward his thigh.
Anyway, had to reply halfway through this thread an d n ow have to read to see if someon'es already brought this up.
I'm not trying to cry End of the World but looking for a reasonable discussion of these candidates for mark of the beast.

[Burbot]

They (archeologists) found old manuscripts of Revelataions, and the number for the Beast is acctually 661 on these (or somehitng like it)....

I was also watching somehing where they related all the symbols and places from Revelations to pertain to 1st century Christians who were still worshiping emporers and sacrificing lambs... ie 7 headed beast = 7 emporers...666 or 661 is acctually a word game where you add the numbers up to get a total and you can get the emperor at the time of the writing...stuff like that...and the colours of the horses had symbolic meaning, but i cant recollect what


not to make you guys question your faith or whatever, but just thought id add that...

[Cosmic Butterfly]

i can teach you about the chips and the mark
the chip is only a material component of the mark
some people without chips are marked
it looks like ribbons of shade that run thru the aura around their head and hands
and it is possible, some people with the chip may live without the mark, however rarely

the government is going to set up huge co-ops, tax breaks and such, for those who take the chip
many parents will do it so they no longer fear losing their children to kidnappers, or at the mall
also they will let children with the mark have more advantages in school and stuff

i would never take the chip
Michael, I also see the "ribbons of shade" that run through dark souls. They also look like they have mascara, and faint black eyeshadow arond their eyes.

[Disarm]

What I love is how people think the mark of the beast will actually be three '6'es in english, not the language which the entire theory was written, not japanese, or spanish, or anything like that. It will, of course, be in english. intense self centeredness.

[Burbot]

ok, so accoding to what is written it will be the crazy romon numeral....

About what i posted earlier, i was skimming through revelations and i found the beast from the sea part....It says the number is the number of a man (old word/name game)? you decide...

[Epiphany]

The number of the beast is the number of man. Man's number is six. He was created on the sixth day.

[Disarm]

ok, so accoding to what is written it will be the crazy romon numeral....

About what i posted earlier, i was skimming through revelations and i found the beast from the sea part....It says the number is the number of a man (old word/name game)? you decide...
Yeah. I dunno. Is the beast only discussed in the new testament? That was initially in latin. The old testament...who knows..possibly hebrew, possibly something else. Who knows. It woulda been easier if they said "star shape" or something like that, damn them :p

[willpower]

christianity itself does a pretty good job at "controlling the masses"

[Burbot]

The number of the beast is the number of man. Man's number is six. He was created on the sixth day.

I have a question about this interpretation, whre do the first two 6's come from then...?

[JesusDiedForU]

Very interesting. However, I don't plan on being here when the Anti-Christ reveals himself. You see, we Christians will no longer be here.
Yes what you are saying is true, but those that don't know Jesus on this post need to understand. When we are gone maybe they will remember this post and understand then what is happening. I feel sorry for these poor people, I just hope they turn to Christ before this happens. I know many of them simply do not have a clue what we are talking about.

[JesusDiedForU]

Inventions are only here today because someone had to think of them yesterday. I wonder if those chips would even exist if someone hadn't put the idea of them in a book as widely read as the bible.

If you believe that you can, and you do, then you are right. But if you believe you can't, and you don't, you are still right.- some guy

That's kind of like saying; Astroid's are only here today, because John talked about one in the Book of Revelation. If John had only kept quiet, we would not have to worry about an Astroid striking the earth.

[JesusDiedForU]

They (archeologists) found old manuscripts of Revelataions, and the number for the Beast is acctually 661 on these (or somehitng like it)....

I was also watching somehing where they related all the symbols and places from Revelations to pertain to 1st century Christians who were still worshiping emporers and sacrificing lambs... ie 7 headed beast = 7 emporers...666 or 661 is acctually a word game where you add the numbers up to get a total and you can get the emperor at the time of the writing...stuff like that...and the colours of the horses had symbolic meaning, but i cant recollect what


not to make you guys question your faith or whatever, but just thought id add that...Well I have heard all of this before, the only problem with that is they have to ignore most of the other prophecies.

[campbell34]

I'm sorry, as screwed up as some of the ideas that come out of governments/people in power - there's no chance that requiring a chip like this will stand up in the court of law. I have no issues with having an ID on me as well as having a SS#, but nope, sorry implanted chips is not an idea that will fly. I suggest you return Bladerunner, I think you've watched it one too many times.
What is going to take place here on earth will require many of the laws to be changed. America and all her cities will burn and America's end will come in one hours time according to the scriptures. It will be after this event that things will
go down hill very quickly. A very evil man will rise up in europe who will be under Satans control. Earth will be like hell.

[Epiphany]

What is going to take place here on earth will require many of the laws to be changed. America and all her cities will burn and America's end will come in one hours time according to the scriptures. It will be after this event that things will
go down hill very quickly. A very evil man will rise up in europe who will be under Satans control. Earth will be like hell.
Sadly enough, my own parents (Catholic), think that the mark is a good idea.

People say that it will not happen, yet I have shown many articles in the news where it is happening around the world.

[thereaperman44]

my personal thought is taht bush is the anti christ. if i could pick anyway to die, i think it would be taken up before armagedon, who knows in 7 yeras time i could get my wish.....

[Raving Sultan]

Bush does suck goatse ass but what the hell, the world is going down the tubes anyway. Our generations lack of conviction is the religion of our times, live without control, never change your ideals and spread your mental illness to others. Be what mothers warn their kids about and smile when you are part of a trend they write statistics about.

[kiss_the_sky]

I have a question about this interpretation, whre do the first two 6's come from then...?
I have always been told that the devil is six because God is 7. It has to do with kaballah, all the letters in a Jewish world also are numbers. I you add the numbers in JHWH to eachother, and you do this untill you have only one number left, you end up with 7. Because the devil is never as powerful as God, the devil is 6. It would be more logical to me if man is 5, because the devil is far more powerful than man. Reminds of me of a Pixies song...:

(...)

if man is 5 [3x]
then the devil is 6 [5x]
then God is 7 [3x]
this monkey's gone to heaven

[Epiphany]

http://hipforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=936219&postcount=1

Like I said a few months ago in this thread, the mark was going to be directed towards children. It is now taking place.

[Sera Michele]

You are aware that these are badges they have to carry, and not something that is being insertred into their bodies, right?

It sucks for all the kids skipping school and all, but is nothing like the endtime prophecy. It doesn't seem all that bad, it takes care of attendance, school lunches, library books, etc...

Our credit card companies have more more of the low-down on us than this badge would have.

Once they start forcing people to stick these things in their hands or something like that, then we can all worry.


Edit to add: Although with all the advancements and adoptions of RFID chips civil liberties groups ought to soon be getting a lot more support from the religious community.

[Sunshine Daydreams]

So what if someone takes the "mark", whatever it is, and they think it's great for safety and that it will keep their children safe. What happens to those children who's parents put the mark on them? Are they damned? What happens to the people who take the mark and they just think it's to protect them?
I think that when the mark actually does appear, it will be something forced. Like you take it or you die, and maybe the general public will know that it's a bad thing to do. I don't know, I'd like to think God is fair, so why would he send people to hell for taking something they didn't know was bad?

Peace and Love

[Epiphany]

You are aware that these are badges they have to carry, and not something that is being insertred into their bodies, right?

It sucks for all the kids skipping school and all, but is nothing like the endtime prophecy. It doesn't seem all that bad, it takes care of attendance, school lunches, library books, etc...

Our credit card companies have more more of the low-down on us than this badge would have.

Once they start forcing people to stick these things in their hands or something like that, then we can all worry.


Edit to add: Although with all the advancements and adoptions of RFID chips civil liberties groups ought to soon be getting a lot more support from the religious community.I find it interesting how you disregarded it being an issue in this post, yet, admitted your fear in the other.

If you honestly believe that credit card companies have more of a low down on us that GPS will, then I suggest you do more research on Global Positioning Satellite. Last time I checked, credit card companies cannot pinpoint the exact location of your body (though certain companies are looking towards that direction). If you look at the study conducted on the doctor who was the first to implant the chip in his arm, you will find that they were able to locate and each and every move he made in New York city. Case in point, RFID is a tracking device that will be used against us.

Yes, many people will welcome the concept with open arms, completely unaware of what they are setting themselves up for.

haha

But I'm still not getting a chip. However, if I was in the military in battle I would. It isn't like the things are permanant.
A friend of mine had a hard time trying to find someone to take out a tracking chip her dog had received. The veterinarian flat out refused to remove it due to the fact that it is a useful tool in tracking lost pets. Once they implant a chip inside of your body for the same reason, they are not going to remove it.

[mynameiskc]

even outside of basic freakiness of The Mark, that's just a HUGE loss of personal freedom and privacy.

[Moonjava]

i'm not sure if getting a chip installed in you for credit purposes would damn your soul.... i think it will be a very consious decision... that you are choosing to deny God and accept the anti-christ.

[Epiphany]

It will be a conscious decision when it is enforced.


I am glad that so many of you are opposed to the idea, faith or not. However, this is merely the beginning. Once these tracking devices are enforced it will revise the consummer world. Just as the implant chips are being used in bars for cashless transactions, soon, these tracking devices will replace cash, credit cards, and other forms of payment. No longer will you be able to walk into a grocery store, a gas station, or anywhere else with money. Unless you hold this code under your skin, service shall be refused to you.

Back when Bill Clinton was in office, Hillary and himself had drawn up a health care plan. This plan included a system in which assistance for your medical emergencies were discussed and decided by a team of experts and care was provided based on whether or not they felt you qualified (thankfully, a refusal came for this to be passed). Reminicent of this plan, once the chip is government enforced, hospitals will have the right to refuse you care unless you possess one.

[Kharakov]

Once these tracking devices are enforced it will revise the consummer world. Just as the implant chips are being used in bars for cashless transactions, soon, these tracking devices will replace cash, credit cards, and other forms of payment. No longer will you be able to walk into a grocery store, a gas station, or anywhere else with money. Unless you hold this code under your skin, service shall be refused to you.
..... Reminicent of this plan, once the chip is government enforced, hospitals will have the right to refuse you care unless you possess one.
That sounds so creepily awesome: "God hatches creepy plot to place subcutaneous chips in humans to control the purchase of goods." Only true believers will have enough faith to get the chips, everyone else will be afraid of the boogeyman.

[Raving Sultan]

Never fear, if you are a sinner, sooner or later you will have these chips implanted without your knowledge through an alien anal probe. The new religion of the future that will save your soul will involve a lot of exlax and a colonic

[Epiphany]

That sounds so creepily awesome: "God hatches creepy plot to place subcutaneous chips in humans to control the purchase of goods." Only true believers will have enough faith to get the chips, everyone else will be afraid of the boogeyman.
Ignorance is bliss, my dear :)

[tiki_god7]

so are all the children that get the chip before knowing what they are getting, or before they are old enough to love jesus are condemned to hell? and the children in the third world countries that can't afford the chip are going to be alright or what?

[Epiphany]

The question about children in third world countries is good as the answer relates to one world government. My views on children and the will of God differ from God's judgement on mankind. My intention for making this thread is to be informative of the implant.

[Epiphany]

Digital Angel delivers 50k bio-thermo RFID chips to UK

Digital Angel Corporation has announced that it has delivered 50,000 Bio- Thermo implantable RFID chips to its distributor in the United Kingdom. The company also announced that it plans to offer Bio- Thermo for U.S. distribution. The Bio-Thermo Chip is the first of its kind in implantable RFID technology. It is the first temperature sensing implantable chip for the pet (dog and cat) world. We believe that this technology will lead the industry to a next generation identification chip said Kevin McGrath, CEO of Digital Angel Corporation.



Scientists aim to barcode all life on Earth

A team of international scientists has launched a project to genetically identify, or provide a barcode for, every plant and animal species on the planet. , The researchers plan to build a database by taking a snippet of DNA from all the known species on Earth and linking them to photographs, descriptions and scientific information.

There is also a report from MSNBC news on it here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6940685/

[Sera Michele]

I find it interesting how you disregarded it being an issue in this post, yet, admitted your fear in the other.

I don't think RFID in badges for school children is scary. I didn't admit fear, I admitted to it's potential for abuse. I said that the gov't could take this in some pretty scary places. Attendance for schoolchildren is not one of them.

[Kharakov]

Ignorance is bliss, my dear :)
Not if it means you can't go to the supermarket for a steak. :p

[Kharakov]

The only real scary thing is this: How are we gonna get drugs if we have to use the chip, bartering?

[tiki_god7]

haha that would make drug deals very intersting...or what about lending money? or just plain giving money to someone?

[juggla]

wtf. do you know anything about the use of numbers in the ancient world, they also stand for letters and names. 666 is also the name NERO. nero was a roman emperor who instituted much of the persecution of christians in the early church.

[Raving Sultan]

does anyone here actually believe in this stuff or are we all having a satirecal laugh

[juggla]

^ i dont believe half of it, but i know most of it cause i went to cathecism for a very long time.

[Epiphany]

does anyone here actually believe in this stuff or are we all having a satirecal laughYou don't have to believe if you wish not to, however, all one needs to do is open a newspaper, turn on their television, or type in a query to see the plan that I have been speaking of over the past seven months beginning to come together. You can read about implant chips, RFID, GPS technology and National ID cards pretty much everywhere at the moment. RFID tags are being implemented in schools as we speak.

Interesting how 2,000 years ago this type of technology was prophecized.

I must admit that I myself am a little shocked at how fast it has been taking place. When I made this post back in july I was unaware that the RFID technology and National Id card that I had read about a year earlier were going to spread as rapidly as they have.

[Alsharad]

You don't have to believe if you wish not to, however, all one needs to do is open a newspaper, turn on their television, or type in a query to see the plan that I have been speaking of over the past seven months beginning to come together. You can read about implant chips, RFID, GPS technology and National ID cards pretty much everywhere at the moment. RFID tags are being implemented in schools as we speak. Personally, I prefer to interpret the Bible (Revelation in particular) using a proper hermeneutic and careful exegesis, not using USAToday or the Washington Post. All this fuss about a microchip just seems overrated. Is it a safety concern? Yes. Privacy? Most definitely. The fabled "Mark of the Beast"? Not likely. Why not? Because there is no way that a person in the first century (when the book was written) would have ANY understanding. But, if you interpret Revelation with a cultural viewpoint in mind you wouuld see that in that culture, the head symbolized thought while the hand symbolized action. So, a mark on the head and hand would simply mean that you can tell Christians and non-Christians apart from others because of their thoughts and actions. This is consistent with the whole of scripture.

Just an aside, Revelation also states that Christians shall be marked on the forhead, is that going to be some kind of microchip or tatoo or something too? Or is that to be taken non-literally (while the mark of the beast must be literal)?

Interesting how 2,000 years ago this type of technology was prophecized.Where is this technology predicted in such a fashion that the same prophecy could not also apply to the events of 70 AD. Also note how the same book says that the battle around Jerusalem will be fought on horseback. Where is all the technology predicted then?

[Epiphany]

One who does not believe in God would assume that this book was written by man as pure mind control. However, upon looking at the prophecies (I am sure Campbell has them all listed somewhere), then you would see that there is no possible way for someone from the first century to possess that kind of comprehensive knowledge without a higher being having any direction.

The idea of the implant chip being the mark of the beast was around LONG before the chip was actually made. It is not something modern Christianity has made much mention of, if any.

If you look at Revelations 13:16, you would notice that the idea of head and hand symbolism would not be possible due to the fact that a literal mark must be needed for the act of buying and selling. When applying for a job, a license, etc., one must be in possession of a social security card. That is a literal, numeral mark. Much in the same way, an implant chip/RFID chip possess a numeral code for tracking purposes. The government is not simply going to say, "Your acts are those of a Christian, you must remove yourself from the premesis."

[Alsharad]

One who does not believe in God would assume that this book was written by man as pure mind control. However, upon looking at the prophecies (I am sure Campbell has them all listed somewhere), then you would see that there is no possible way for someone from the first century to possess that kind of comprehensive knowledge without a higher being having any direction. Exactly my point. There is no possible way that anyone would have understood what John wrote. So, God says "Here is something that will completely obscure for roughly 1500 years. But I am giving it to you now, even though you will not be able to comprehend what I am telling you." Say what?! What kind of "revelation" is that? A revelation, literally "an unveiling" is supposed to make things clearer. Stop reading Revelation through the eyes of a 21st century Christian and read it as you would if you were living in the 1st century with no knowledge of technology, but an amazing grasp of the Old Testament. Did you know that over half of Revelation is a direct allusion to Old Testament prophecy? Read Daniel's four beasts (the leaopard, the lion, the bear, and the ten horned beast) and the read the beast of Revelation (body of a leaopard, feet of a bear, mouth of a lion, and it has ten horns). Why wasn't the beast explained? Because it had ALREADY been explained in Daniel. The beast of Revelation wasn't some kind of distant future economic union which somehow duplicated what was, at the time of Revelation's writing, the current Roman Empire. It WAS the Roman Empire!

Here's a question, how do you determine what to take literally and what not to take literally?

If you look at Revelations 13:16, you would notice that the idea of head and hand symbolism would not be possible due to the fact that a literal mark must be needed for the act of buying and selling. When applying for a job, a license, etc., one must be in possession of a social security card. That is a literal, numeral mark. Much in the same way, an implant chip/RFID chip possess a numeral code for tracking purposes. The government is not simply going to say, "Your acts are those of a Christian, you must remove yourself from the premesis." But your assumptions are getting in the way of your understanding. I would agree that it would not happen now, but it DID happen to the early Christians. They announced publicly (through baptism) that they were Christians (and some were led from the baptism to the guillotine immediately). They were associated with Christians, they were known as Christians, and they were not allowed to buy food based on that alone. They were persecuted, killed, tortured, etc. simply because they were Christians. What references to the tribulation can you find that did NOT apply to the Church of the first century (particularly around 70 AD)?

[Epiphany]

Exactly my point. There is no possible way that anyone would have understood what John wrote. So, God says "Here is something that will completely obscure for roughly 1500 years. But I am giving it to you now, even though you will not be able to comprehend what I am telling you." Say what?! What kind of "revelation" is that? A revelation, literally "an unveiling" is supposed to make things clearer. Stop reading Revelation through the eyes of a 21st century Christian and read it as you would if you were living in the 1st century with no knowledge of technology, but an amazing grasp of the Old Testament. Did you know that over half of Revelation is a direct allusion to Old Testament prophecy? Read Daniel's four beasts (the leaopard, the lion, the bear, and the ten horned beast) and the read the beast of Revelation (body of a leaopard, feet of a bear, mouth of a lion, and it has ten horns). Why wasn't the beast explained? Because it had ALREADY been explained in Daniel. The beast of Revelation wasn't some kind of distant future economic union which somehow duplicated what was, at the time of Revelation's writing, the current Roman Empire. It WAS the Roman Empire! The entire Bible is written in codes and symbols. Yes, God could have chosen to lay it out plain and simple in lamens terms so that we may all understand, but clearly he did not. Jesus quite simply told his apostles that the gift of his spirit would direct them, the same spirit of the Lord that the writer's of the Bible possessed. Revelation is a book of prophecy - a prophetic unveiling of the future. It is not a reflection on the old testament. The Bible moves forwards, not backwards.

During the end times, the roman empire will be revived.

Yes, the holy roman empire was spoken of in Daniel. It is Daniel's interpretation of King Nebuchadnezzar's dream that focused on the five great powers that had world dominion:
gold - babaloynians
silver - persians and medes
brass - greek period (alexander the great)
iron - roman empire
clay - roman catholic church/ holy roman empire
If it had already taken place, Jesus would have returned to carry out his promise of a 1,000 year reign in the new kingdom he establishes on earth (also found in revelation). That has not happened yet and will not happen until these prophecies are fulfilled. When Christ comes back, world government will no longer exsist. It is quite evident that this has yet to come. Look at the parable of the fig tree for example - 1948 - some of those people born then will remain when end is upon us.

If you look at both the image in Daniel's interpretation and the beast that John speaks of in revelation, you will see great differences. I have already gone over what that beast represents in one of Amanda's posts.


Here's a question, how do you determine what to take literally and what not to take literally? Through the Spirit - those who possess Christ's spirit understand, those who don't are riding around on waves of false prophecy and believing in whatever their pastor's dictate to them.

But your assumptions are getting in the way of your understanding. I would agree that it would not happen now, but it DID happen to the early Christians. They announced publicly (through baptism) that they were Christians (and some were led from the baptism to the guillotine immediately). They were associated with Christians, they were known as Christians, and they were not allowed to buy food based on that alone. They were persecuted, killed, tortured, etc. simply because they were Christians. What references to the tribulation can you find that did NOT apply to the Church of the first century (particularly around 70 AD)?The simple fact that Christ has not yet come back to earth. The fact that no where in the Bible do we see the tribulation and Christ coming out of the sky because it has not yet happened.

[Alsharad]

The entire Bible is written in codes and symbols. Yes, God could have chosen to lay it out plain and simple in lamens terms so that we may all understand, but clearly he did not. Jesus quite simply told his apostles that the gift of his spirit would direct them, the same spirit of the Lord that the writer's of the Bible possessed. Revelation is a book of prophecy - a prophetic unveiling of the future. It is not a reflection on the old testament. The Bible moves forwards, not backwards.
But it is written in a specific historical context. Look, you keep looking at Revelation as though it was a distant future for John and the 1st Century Church but is an immediate future for us. The thing is that scripture talks about the events of Revelation as "soon", "near", "close", "quickly". In fact, just about every synonym for "soon" that exists in the Greek language has been used to describe the destruction of the temple and the events of 70 AD.

Here are some examples:

Matthew 24:34 – Most assuredly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
Matt 16:28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Romans 16:20 And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly.

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

James 5:8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand…..Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour.

Rev 1:1,3 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place…..Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near…

Revelation 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.” Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!


The point to all this is that SCRIPTURE promised to the people of the day that it was going to happen very quickly (within a generation). If it doesn't happen until 20xx then the Scripture (and Jesus Himself) is a false prophet.

During the end times, the roman empire will be revived.

Yes, the holy roman empire was spoken of in Daniel. It is Daniel's interpretation of King Nebuchadnezzar's dream that focused on the five great powers that had world dominion:
gold - babaloynians
silver - persians and medes
brass - greek period (alexander the great)
iron - roman empire
clay - roman catholic church/ holy roman empire
If it had already taken place, Jesus would have returned to carry out his promise of a 1,000 year reign in the new kingdom he establishes on earth (also found in revelation). That has not happened yet and will not happen until these prophecies are fulfilled. When Christ comes back, world government will no longer exsist. It is quite evident that this has yet to come. Look at the parable of the fig tree for example - 1948 - some of those people born then will remain when end is upon us.
You are still interpreting scripture through your futurist model. Loose the model and start using scripture to back up your position. Build your model up from what scripture actually says, not what you think it means.

If you look at both the image in Daniel's interpretation and the beast that John speaks of in revelation, you will see great differences. I have already gone over what that beast represents in one of Amanda's posts.
Sorry, I haven't read it, but the point is that the Roman Empire fit the bill exactly. Why do you think people call it the 'revived' Roman Empire. Why is it necessary for Revelation to refer to a future "Emipire" when the ACTUAL Empire was already there and met all the requirements?

Through the Spirit - those who possess Christ's spirit understand, those who don't are riding around on waves of false prophecy and believing in whatever their pastor's dictate to them.
Personally, I think that we should interpret scripture in light of scripture, not according to some feeling that we may or may not have.

The simple fact that Christ has not yet come back to earth. The fact that no where in the Bible do we see the tribulation and Christ coming out of the sky because it has not yet happened.
No, we don't see the Tribulation in the Bible because it happened AFTER the books were written (hence why it is called Prophecy). But regarding Christ coming out of the sky, Christ said that He would be coming on clouds, not out of the sky. This is Hebrew Judgement language. It is also found in Isaiah:

Isaiah 19:1 – The burden against Egypt. Behold, the LORD rides on a swift cloud, and will come into Egypt; the idols of Egypt will totter at His presence, and the heart of Egypt will melt in its midst.

This has already happened, but do you REALLY think that God saddled up on a cumulous and rode into Egypt kicking over idols? Literally? Of course not. It is understood to be figurative. This is the same language, why, all of a sudden, should it be taken literally?

For some other passages connecting clouds and judgment, see 2 Samuel 22:12; Jeremiah 4:13; Ezekiel 30:3; Nahum 1:3; Zephaniah 1:14-15. It is always used figuratively.

[Epiphany]

Interesting, yet a fallacious theory


What of the two million man army?
What about the third Jewish temple that has still not been built yet? Before any prophecy took place in relation to the end time, the temple would to have to been constructed. Israel is still waiting for the land provisions to do so.

The Bible specifically states that Israel will be declared it's own nation. It has not happened yet.

[Alsharad]

You say the argument is fallacious because I haven't answered all the questions you haven't asked about yet? Why haven't you answered my questions? You still haven't addressed how "soon", "quickly", "near", etc. somehow means "in several thousand years", "in the distant future", "far off", etc.

What of the two million man army? Two million man army? Where is that in Revelation again?

What about the third Jewish temple that has still not been built yet? Before any prophecy took place in relation to the end time, the temple would to have to been constructed. Israel is still waiting for the land provisions to do so. Ummm... why is it necessary for a third temple to be built? Please tell me you are NOT referring to the Olivet Discourse which was so completely OBVIOUSLY about the temple that existed and was razed to the ground in 70 AD.

The Bible specifically states that Israel will be declared it's own nation. It has not happened yet. Where? Where exactly does it state that?

[juggla]

revalations isnt suppose to be read as literal truth its all figurative, theres not gonna be a 1000yr. reign of christ, 1000years simply represents a long period of time look at it being used as such in the ot, his reign is suppose to be happening now he reigns through the church . much of this left behind, evangellical interpretation is based on misunderstanging and propaganda it uses against the catholic church. the catholic interpretation of revalation hasnt change much since it came abot almost 2 thousand years ago, all this fundamentalist bullshit came about in the last half century, where did they obtain such wisdom?

[Epiphany]

You say the argument is fallacious because I haven't answered all the questions you haven't asked about yet? Why haven't you answered my questions? You still haven't addressed how "soon", "quickly", "near", etc. somehow means "in several thousand years", "in the distant future", "far off", etc. "Soon", "quickly", and, "near", can be looked at exactly how the time length of the earth being created in seven days is looked at. Did God create the earth in exactly a weeks time? Of course not. I think you are failing to see that God does not exsist on our time.

Two million man army? Where is that in Revelation again?Revelation 9:15-16: And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men. And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them."


Ummm... why is it necessary for a third temple to be built? Please tell me you are NOT referring to the Olivet Discourse which was so completely OBVIOUSLY about the temple that existed and was razed to the ground in 70 AD. Where? Where exactly does it state that?Who was the non-Jewish leader that stood on the temple mount and claimed to be the Lord during this time? The one who would have ended the sacrifices and offerings, as prophecized by Daniel (Daniel 9:27). Why is Israel set to build a third temple if it was already constructed? (Here is their vision for the temple they are making plans for http://www.templemountfaithful.org/ )

According to Revelation 16:12-16, the Euphrates river shall dry up (the 6th trumpet) When in history did that take place?

Romans 11:25-26 declares that when the Lord returns, all of Israel shall be saved. If this has alread occured, why are there Jewish people there who waiting for his impending birth?

Ezekiel predicted that Israel would be born again in 1948. (In which it became an independant state after it was recognized as it's own country by the United Nations). The fig tree parable of Matthew 24:32-35 speaks of the generation of 1948. No other ancient nation ever ceased to exist for a period of centuries and then returned to take its place on the stage of world history.

The prophecies surrounding the rebirth of Israel did not stop with the declaration of Israel's independence in 1948. Three thousand years ago, God inspired King David to predict that the reborn nation of Israel would be immediately surrounded by enemies, (including the Arab nations of Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Syria) (Psalm 83:2-8). David described the modern states of the Middle East by naming the ancient nations that have now joined with Palestinians in their attempt to destroy the Jewish state in the last days.

Other prophecies in Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 and 17 confirm the revival of the Roman Empire in the last days in the unique form of a ten-nation superstate. Following the devastation of two world wars the leadership of Europe came together after World War II to plan the creation of a confederate form of superstate bringing the major nations of Europe together for the first time since the days of Rome. In 1957, six countries signed the Treaty of Rome laying the foundation for the future United States of Europe. The former secretary-general of NATO, (Henri Spaak), admitted in a BBC documentary on the European Union that "We felt like Romans on that day....We were consciously re-creating the Roman Empire once more." Since then, the Maastricht Treaty consolidated the fifteen nations of the European Union into the world's first superstate. It is now an economic, political, and potentially, a military that will dominate world events in the near future.

Revelation 13: 7-8 says: "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him". Over two thousand years ago the prophets Daniel and John described that there would be a global, world government led by the coming dictator, the Antichrist in the last days (Daniel 7:14). There has never been a world government during thousands of years of human history.

Zechariah 14:12 states: "And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongues shall consume away in their mouth". This seems to speak of the effects of biological and chemical weapons. That surely has not taken place already.

Jesus prophesied that the last generation of this age would witness the greatest earthquakes in history. Other prophets, including Ezekiel, Zechariah, Haggai, and John predicted awesome earthquakes that would precede Christ's return. Jesus said these earthquakes will occur in "diverse places". From 1900 to 1949 we avereged three major earthquakes per decade. From 1949 we witnessed an increase with nine killer quakes in the 1950s,thirteen in the 1960s, fifty six in the 1970s, and seventy four major quakes in the 1980s. Not to mention the earthquake last December that caused the Tsunamis.

Again, how could John have known the technology of the mark of the beast unless inspired by the Lord?

John prophesied that in the future tribulation, the Antichrist will kill two of God's witnesses who will stop the rain for three-and-a-half years. He goes on to declare that the people living around the world will see their deaths and observe their bodies lying unburied for three-and-a-half days in Jerusalem. How would it have been possible for the entire world to witness this event back then? The only way the world could witness this is with transmitted pictures and sound, (i.e. newstations).

Matthew 24:14 says, "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" . This obviously did not take place 2,000 years ago as the Bible is now translated in more than 3,850 languages in every nation, tribe and dialect on this planet.

In conclusion, all I have to say is, "Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near" (Luke 21:28).

These things are beginning to happen.

[Kharakov]

Nice post.

[Kharakov]

The number of the beast is the number of man. Man's number is six. He was created on the sixth day.I have a question about this interpretation, whre do the first two 6's come from then...?

The number of books in the bible. The beast is man(6) with a bible(66).

[Kharakov]

And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them."

200 thousand thousand= 200 million, not 2 million.

Ezekiel predicted that Israel would be born again in 1948. (In which it became an independant state after it was recognized as it's own country by the United Nations). Please show how Ezekial predicted the year 1948.

Three thousand years ago, God inspired King David to predict that the reborn nation of Israel would be immediately surrounded by enemies Any nation carved out of an opposing populace will be surrounded by enemies. This is something anyone could predict (that one culture driving out another culture (that is prevalent in the area) would cause enmity).

Over two thousand years ago the prophets Daniel and John described that there would be a global, world government led by the coming dictator, the Antichrist in the last days (Daniel 7:14). Isn't anyone who focuses attention upon earthly powers instead of God an antichrist?

Zechariah 14:12 "Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongues shall consume away in their mouth".
Ewwhh, grody.

From 1900 to 1949 we avereged three major earthquakes per decade. From 1949 we witnessed an increase with nine killer quakes in the 1950s,thirteen in the 1960s, fifty six in the 1970s, and seventy four major quakes in the 1980s.Not according to the USGS: http://earthquake.usgs.gov/faq/myths.html#8

The only way the world could witness this is with transmitted pictures and sound, (i.e. newstations). Yeah, maybe Hannity and Colmes are the 2 prophets. Or do you think it is Bill O'reilly and Hannity? Whoever it is, you know that it's gonna be on the Fox News channel.

What if!!! It could be John Stewart!! He's a Jew!!

[Alsharad]

"Soon", "quickly", and, "near", can be looked at exactly how the time length of the earth being created in seven days is looked at. Did God create the earth in exactly a weeks time? Of course not. I think you are failing to see that God does not exsist on our time.
Oh. So THAT is figurative while the rest of Revelation is literal? More importantly, do you think that it is soon or near now? Why not in a thousand years? Why did "soon" for the first century church somehow mean 200 years, but for our generation it means "sometime in the immediate future (like 20 years)"?

Why all the fuss over the microchip? It is the same "mark" thing hashed over again. Our parents thought it was tatoos, and our grandparents thought it would be social security. Given futurists track records, why do you care about the chip? Chances are, given the inaccuracies of past "marks of the beast," well, it just doesn't look good for your position.

Revelation 9:15-16: And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men. And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them."

Wow, then God's army is seriously outnumbered.

Ps. 68:17 The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.

20 thousand vs 200 million. And God's army only has infantry and cavalry. No blackhawks, no cruise missles. Wow! Or perhaps we could just understand that in bother verses what is being indicated is just a large, countless number. By the way, do you think that it is EXACTLY 200 million? Not approximately, but down to the last man, 200 million to a head?

Oh yeah, consider this:

Jerusalem was originally attacked in the Jewish War by 4 military sections of Cestius, composed of strong cavalry, that came from near the Euphrates to invade Palestine [Ford, 154].

Was it exactly 200 million? No, it probably wasn't. Was it a HUGE force (possibly uncountable)? Yes.

Who was the non-Jewish leader that stood on the temple mount and claimed to be the Lord during this time? The one who would have ended the sacrifices and offerings, as prophecized by Daniel (Daniel 9:27).
Yep. Titus. Josephus records it for us:

And now the Romans, upon the flight of the rebellious into the city, and upon the burning of the holy house itself, and of all the buildings around it, brought their ensigns to the temple and set them near to its eastern gate; and there did they offer sacrifices to them, and there did they make Titus imperator with the greatest acclamations of joy. (War 6.1) A note in this edition of Josephus adds that Tertullian remarked that "the entire religion of the Roman camp almost consisted in worshipping the ensigns, in swearing by the ensigns, and in preferring the ensigns before all the [other] gods."


Why is Israel set to build a third temple if it was already constructed? (Here is their vision for the temple they are making plans for http://www.templemountfaithful.org/ )
Because a temple is necessary for making sacrifices! Of course the Jews are going to want to build another temple! It is the cornerstone of their faith!

According to Revelation 16:12-16, the Euphrates river shall dry up (the 6th trumpet) When in history did that take place?
Still looking for a literal fulfillment of Jewish apocolyptic symbolism? You keep looking for answers that presuppose the correctness of your position. Stop asking "when did x literally happen?" and start asking "is it possible that, given the nature of apocalyptic Hebrew writings, there has been a historical event which could easily be symbolized as x?"

Romans 11:25-26 declares that when the Lord returns, all of Israel shall be saved. If this has alread occured, why are there Jewish people there who waiting for his impending birth?
This is so loaded with presuppositions I cannot answer it.

Ezekiel predicted that Israel would be born again in 1948. (In which it became an independant state after it was recognized as it's own country by the United Nations).
Like Kharakov said "please show how Ezekiel predicted 1948."

The fig tree parable of Matthew 24:32-35 speaks of the generation of 1948. No other ancient nation ever ceased to exist for a period of centuries and then returned to take its place on the stage of world history.
Umm... yes there is. Have you forgotten about the Babylonian captivity? Isreal ceased to exist and was reformed later. Isreal has been destroyed and reformed several times. It just that between 70 AD and 1948 AD you have the longest time period.


Other prophecies in Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 and 17 confirm the revival of the Roman Empire in the last days in the unique form of a ten-nation superstate. Following the devastation of two world wars the leadership of Europe came together after World War II to plan the creation of a confederate form of superstate bringing the major nations of Europe together for the first time since the days of Rome. In 1957, six countries signed the Treaty of Rome laying the foundation for the future United States of Europe. The former secretary-general of NATO, (Henri Spaak), admitted in a BBC documentary on the European Union that "We felt like Romans on that day....We were consciously re-creating the Roman Empire once more." Since then, the Maastricht Treaty consolidated the fifteen nations of the European Union into the world's first superstate. It is now an economic, political, and potentially, a military that will dominate world events in the near future.
And again I ask, why does it have to be a "new" Rome when the Roman Empire that existed at the time fits the bill to a tee. The only reason you see it as a "revived" Rome is because you assume that it what it means. You are interpreting the Scriptures in light of your own presuppositions regarding the end of the world. You are begging the question.

Revelation 13: 7-8 says: "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him". Over two thousand years ago the prophets Daniel and John described that there would be a global, world government led by the coming dictator, the Antichrist in the last days (Daniel 7:14). There has never been a world government during thousands of years of human history.
Hmm... tell that to the Romans. They dominated all the known world. You want to say that there has never been a government that controlled every global location, I will agree with you, but to say that there have never been governments which controlled the known world at that time is simply inaccurate historically.

Zechariah 14:12 states: "And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongues shall consume away in their mouth". This seems to speak of the effects of biological and chemical weapons. That surely has not taken place already.
You are doing what many futurists do. Selective interpretation. You say we should take it literally. Okay, well then, God himself will cause a disease that will consume someone while they are still standing. If you are saying that it is biological or chemical warfare, then you are still interpreting it as figurative, not literal. Why? Because biological and chemical weapons are delivered by missles, canisters, etc. and are launched by human beings. Not only that, they are not a plauge (which is natural), but a deliberate and calculated strike (whereas a plague strikes everything). So, to be literal, it cannot be a biological or chemical weapon because it would not, then, be a literal plague which was directly delivered by God with no human intervention. Any other reading is not being completely literal, but selectively so. How do you select what is literal? Personal bias and presupposition. Me? I take it as figurative and look for other places in scripture (specifically in the OT) where we have that same kind of prophecy. Then I look for what, historically, was a fulfillment of said other prophecies and look for the same kind of possible fulfillment in history.

Again, how could John have known the technology of the mark of the beast unless inspired by the Lord?
And again, you are not answering the question. Given the nature and style of Jewich apocalyptic literature, where does John specifically predict this technology? He doesn't. It is a paradigm which you force on scripture.

John prophesied that in the future tribulation, the Antichrist will kill two of God's witnesses who will stop the rain for three-and-a-half years. He goes on to declare that the people living around the world will see their deaths and observe their bodies lying unburied for three-and-a-half days in Jerusalem. How would it have been possible for the entire world to witness this event bacl then? The only way the world could witness this is with transmitted pictures and sound, (i.e. newstations).
Again with the literalism! Here, try this on:

In light of the quote from Severus showing that part of Titus' attempt was to destroy Christianity, this is able to be understood as the beast (the Roman Empire) overcoming the Christian witness in Jerusalem (the great city where "our Lord" was crucified -- note as well that it is called spiritually Sodom and Egypt, which suggests that the plagues of Egypt, as noted above, are also "spiritually" applied rather than literally) -- or, we may see here (perhaps more likely) a hint of the Neronian persecution which was the first attempt to destroy the Christian faith (with those in Jerusalem being the Jerusalem church, and men like James the brother of Jesus, being persecuted and martyred). In either case, the Romans probably thought this was a killing blow for the Christian witness, and for a short period (symbolically represented by the 3 1/2 days) thought the mission a success. The idea of not burying the bodies corresponds with the great shame of not being buried; so it is that Rome undoubtedly thought they had put the Christian opposition to shame through defeat.

Matthew 24:14 says, "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" . This obviously did not take place 2,000 years ago as the Bible is now translated in more than 3,850 languages in every nation, tribe and dialect on this planet.
And Paul said beware because the gospel HAD been preached in all the world. The idea that is causing difficulty is "the world." Did the author mean "the entire globe" or did he mean "all the known world"? You can believe that he meant the former, but the greek words and context used actually indicate the latter.

In conclusion, all I have to say is, "Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near" (Luke 21:28).
Now THAT I can agree with (though that is not the context of what was being said). However, I do not believe we are waiting for a secret return of Christ where He snatches away believers. I believe that all that remains is resurrection unto judgement.

These things are beginning to happen.
Nice touch of the dramatic.

[Epiphany]

[/i]

200 thousand thousand= 200 million, not 2 million. Yeah, sorry, typo... it happens

Please show how Ezekial predicted the year 1948There are actually several people who used rough calculations to formulate this equation.



"This will be a sign to the house of Israel. Lie also on your left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it. According to the number of the days that you lie on it, you shall bear their iniquity. For I have laid on you the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days; so you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. And when you have completed them, lie again on your right side; then you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days. I have laid on you a day for each year" (Ezekiel 4:3-6).

Each day represents one biblical year. 430 years (390 years plus another 40 years).

"And after all this, if you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins" (Leviticus 26:18; see also Leviticus 26:21, 23-24,27-28). 430 years - first 70 years = 360 years x 7 = 2,520 biblical years x 360 day = 907,200 days (2,520 years).

Taking that equation or leaving it is not exactly the issue. The point is that Israel was prophecized to, and was declared her own nation on May 14, 1948.

In Ezekiel 4:1-7, the prophecy is not only for the "Servitude of the Nation" but also for the "Desolations of Jerusalem." There are also equations for recapture of Jerusalem by Israel during the 6 Day War in 1967.

Thus, the prophecy being fulfilled, signals that when she became her own nation, that generation was the one in question that would not pass until it saw these events taking place.

Ezekiel 37 notes that when the Jews return to their own land they will be one nation under one ruler.... where as before they were split into two lands with two rulers

Any nation carved out of an opposing populace will be surrounded by enemies. This is something anyone could predict (that one culture driving out another culture (that is prevalent in the area) would cause enmity). The importance is that David predicted the exact enemies. How would he have know 3,000 years ago that this would take place? Or more specifically who would be key players? Not to mention that fact that within mere hours after the proclamation of Israel's independence, the armies of Egypt, Jordon, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq with Saudi-Arabian contingents crossed the frontiers of the new state, determined to strangle it at birth.

Isn't anyone who focuses attention upon earthly powers instead of God an antichrist?No, and if we look closely at the Bible, we see that there are 50 prophecies about the antichrist in the bible (mostly in revelations, daniel, and II thessalonians) giving us details.


Yeah, maybe Hannity and Colmes are the 2 prophets. Or do you think it is Bill O'reilly and Hannity? Whoever it is, you know that it's gonna be on the Fox News channel.

What if!!! It could be John Stewart!! He's a Jew!!News broadcasts would be live on the scene within a short matter of time, able to inform the entire world. If these events had taken place in 70 A.D., what form of technology was used to spread this information?

[JesusDiedForU]

Alsharad, you believe the end times have already happened right?

So tell me when was the Babylon of Jeremiah 50 & 51 and Revelation 18 destroyed?

[TrippinBTM]

The entire Bible is written in codes and symbols.
Yet it is at the same time to be taken literally? Man, what a mind job...

[Alsharad]

Alsharad, you believe the end times have already happened right?
Let me clarify my position here. I believe that MOST of Revelation has already happened in a historical context. I think that we are currently in the "millenium" right now (1000 is a variation of the number of completeness; it simply indicates a very long time) while the enemies of God are being put under the foot of Christ. The last enemy is death and when death is put under Christ's foot, the resurrection will occur. The rapture and the resurrection occur at the same time and we go to judgement. All we are waiting for is for Christ to return like a thief (not announcing His coming) and render judgement upon the earth. Does this mean that there will be no great Antichrist (biblically an antichrist is someone who is against Christ; also, "antichrist" is not once used in Revelation) and no coming Tribulation? No, it doesn't. It is entirely possible. However, it is not necessary as the prophecy has already been fulfilled once. So, instead of pulling information off the newspaper headlines to validate my faith in the coming Christ, I can simply point to history and say "see, Revelation was correct, Christ was vindicated as He said He would be." It solidifies Revelation as being from God (since we can then verify its accuracy) and we can trust completely that we await the final resurrection and judgement and that they are coming. There is no need to look for signs because we know that Christ will be coming like a thief, we cannot look for signs because there will be none.

So tell me when was the Babylon of Jeremiah 50 & 51 and Revelation 18 destroyed?
Honestly, I don't know about the Babylon of Revelation 18. I haven't had a chance to really look at it. This kind of research takes time and usually more skill than I have. However, Babylon of Jeremiah 50 and 51 was destroyed (by the Medes and the Persians who ruled them).

Regarding Revelation 18, it is important to stress that this is symbolic, not the literal Babylon. Even futurists agree with this.

Given the description, it is entirely possible that Babylon refers to Jerusalem. Jerusalem was (and is) a HUGE center for trade. It is on the land bridge that joins three continents. Merchants and kings would of course be upset by such a huge disruption in commerce (as is noted in Revelation 18:9). Given what happened to Jerusalem in 70 AD, that passage speaks well to the wrath poured out on the city.

By the way, it is important to note that no Christians died during the war in Jerusalem (by the way, the war lasted from 67 to 73 AD... hmmm 7 years...). They had fled by that time, just as was predicted.

[velvet]

Though it may be a fact that the bible says so, the bible saying so makes nothing a fact, merely theory and speculation ( or delusion...). As for the second part of your post, you mean like christianity? Haha Perhaps your whole religion is a deception? As you say satan is the great deciever, and that would be a fairly great deception... I mean I'd laugh! Hehe whatever... Finally someone who thinks of this as well! And it would make sense actually.. since there is so much diversity amongst Christians (protestants, baptists, catholics etc) they quarrel amongst themselfs, the fundies are barking so loud that the scare away the sheep from the sheppard, so to say.. if there is a God I really doubt that he's happy with the way things have turned out, religion wise.. and it does feel like a perfectly good explanation that 'the great deceiver' makes you believe that the religion 'christianity' is the only true way to God. The more I think of it, the more sense it really makes. But hey, I must be influenced by Satan for saying this, right? Now if you'll excuse me, I've gotta go get some of those nifty chips!

:p

Ofcourse I'm not going to get chipped.. but I was thinking.. it's perfectly normal nowaday to get your pet chipped and I am planning on doing so with me cat.. does that give the cat the mark of the beast as well? She IS kinda wild.. and when she's hunting she IS a true devil.... ;)

[Alsharad]

Yet it is at the same time to be taken literally? Man, what a mind job... That is part of the problem that I have with the futurist model. The thing is, the scripture has a definite, historical, cultural setting. Does that mean that there are no timeless truths or moral which apply to us? Absolutely not! We want to take things that have a literal context (like the gospels) and interpret them in light of historical documents and other literal scriptures. However, Jewish apocalyptic literature had a distinct and specific style that is consistent throughout the OT. I argue that it is consistent throughout the New Testament as well. Scripture is only a mind job if you decide to arbitrarily decide based on a presupposition what is to be literal and what is to be figurative. However, if you try to use scripture to interpret scripture and look for parallels between OT and NT literature, then, after applying the religious and cultural perspective of the people to whom the books and letters were written historically, you can determine what is meant by the scriptures (specifically the books of prophecy). Having a firm background in history, greek and hebrew definitely helps.

[Kharakov]

"And after all this, if you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins" (Leviticus 26:18; see also Leviticus 26:21, 23-24,27-28). 430 years - first 70 years = 360 years x 7 = 2,520 biblical years x 360 day = 907,200 days (2,520 years). Why did you decide to subtract the 70 years, because thats the only way to make it work?
Your equation doesn't make the cut, especially since you take Leviticus out of context (it was a recording of a reprimand from God in the time of Moses, not the time of Ezekiel. The reprimand that Ezekiel delivered was a new one).
Taking that equation or leaving it is not exactly the issue.Actually, it is the issue. Israel was prophecied to be reborn, but I was asking for a specific prophecy that supports your claim of a date.

In Ezekiel 4:1-7, the prophecy is not only for the "Servitude of the Nation" but also for the "Desolations of Jerusalem."I didn't pick that up from Ezekiel 4. Care to support your statement?

Ezekiel 37 notes that when the Jews return to their own land they will be one nation under one ruler.... where as before they were split into two lands with two rulers Yup, and it also says that God's servant David will be their ruler. There is no David on the throne now, is there? In addition, the legislative branch of the government is ruled by 2 heads: The President Moshe Katzav and the Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.

The importance is that David predicted the exact enemies. Where did David predict the exact enemies?

In addition, is it not obvious that the descendants of the enemies that lived around your land would be your enemies in the future if you drove them out of the land they occupied (the choice land location, present day Israel).

[Raving Sultan]

The only land worth talking about here is your choad, the real estate betwist your anus and balls/snatch. otherwise known as the assneck or taint.

[velvet]

The only land worth talking about here is your choad, the real estate betwist your anus and balls/snatch. otherwise known as the assneck or taint.
Oh my my.. how funny are you. By the way.. the official term for the area you are refering to is called the 'perineum' and if you want to discuss that part of your body I'd suggest you go to the Health Forum or the Real Kinky Forum.

[darrellkitchen]

June 16, 2001

'Digital Angel' not pursuing implants (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=23268)
Plans to create under-the-skin monitoring device discontinued

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By Julie Foster
© 2001 WorldNetDaily.com

Digital Angel® is no longer pursuing implant technology for humans, a spokesman for the company said yesterday.

Dr. Lawrence Webber of Digital Angel Corp., a wholly owned subsidiary of Applied Digital Solutions, told WorldNetDaily the company has "no plan at this time for implant technology." Rather, the company's patented sensor technology is being used in externally worn devices