Topic: Anti-Christians. [Archive]

tom

07-29-2004, 10:31 AM

I believe Jesus answered this question.

This is from John 15:18-26 I believe.

f the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me. If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.He that hateth me hateth my Father also. If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. But [this cometh to pass], that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

That should about sum it up.

Epiphany

07-29-2004, 10:45 AM

People often argue against what they don't fully understand. Christianity doesn't fit most people because they find it too difficult. Society has a hard time abstaining from things. But yeah, that verse pretty much sums it up.

meishka

07-29-2004, 03:27 PM

LuciferSam

07-29-2004, 04:26 PM

I guess my cynicism of Christianity comes from growing up as an atheist in the conservative Christian Midwest (and America's puritanism in general), growing up knowing a good number of people that are real hardcore Bible-beaters and all. It doesn't leave a good impression of devout Christians on you, especially the ones that howl fire-and-brimstone for the unrepentent. And the religious right that try to push their beliefs on the rest of us don't help either.

I've become more tolerant as I grew up, after I made a minor shift to agnosticism/humanism. I'm not really anti-Christian, though fundamentalists tend to be my pet peeve so you might say I'm anti-fundie. When holier-than-thou people condescend to non-believers and talk as if the rest of us live in some dark pit of ignorance and damnation, I feel they deserve the same treatment.

Real American

07-29-2004, 07:48 PM

Well, I say this to you:

Do you hold all black people responsable when one commits a crime?
Is every dog a vicious beast when one attacks a child?
Is every soldier inhumane when one mistreats an enemy?
Are all white people snoby?

The answers....no.

When I see the idiot people holding signs that say "God Hates Gay's" I can't help but think how mislead they are by Satan. I am a Christian, and I am certainly not better than you. Why do I talk to people about my faith? Well, for one, I am comanded too. Another reason is because I want others to enjoy the relationship I have with God for themselves. You will make your decision for yourself. I can not force you to believe in anything. The only thing I can ask you is to ignore the bad apples that you see and do not allow them to cloud your judgment for true believers.

maryfairy

07-29-2004, 07:54 PM

i don't like christianity, because every christian i have ever met tells me in order to be a good person i need to go to church and believe what they believe. and they get mad at me when i explain i can't just set my life aside for a book of stories.

i'm just telling you the truth, you asked for it so don't get all pissed off.

daymuse

07-29-2004, 07:56 PM

Do you hold all black people responsable when one commits a crime?
Is every dog a vicious beast when one attacks a child?
Is every soldier inhumane when one mistreats an enemy?
Are all white people snoby?
Only if they say they're christians.

POPthree13

07-29-2004, 08:00 PM

I fail to see all these threads of people attacking christians. Maybe I am not looking in the right place. What I see is a lot of good-hearted debate - diagreements over idelas, beleifs, interpretations and principals. Just becasue someone doesn't agree with your perspective doesn't mean that they are attacking you.

True I do see people get fed up occasionally and post insulting text, but I find it is generally directed at an individual who is playing an active role in aggrevating the situation. Not christians in general.

I have been called ignorant becasue I investigated what was handed to me.
I have been called damned because I do not beleive what I was sold.
I have been called blind because I read instead of assumed.

I do not call names... I refute points. Who is doing the attacking?

FreakyJoeMan

07-29-2004, 08:01 PM

Yes, but it's a human thing to catogorize individuals into groups, it's easier to assign character traits to groups than to individuals. It's easier to asses goups than is it to asses on a case by case basis, ya see. Now, i don't hate christians, some of my best buds are christian. What I DO hate are closed minded ignoramouses. Jerry Falwell=idiot, The Ayyatola Komeni=idiot, Joseph Stalin=idiot, our pastor=idiot. Stupidity, hate, intollerance, they cross all racial, religious, and intellectual barriers. Heh, you could say it's what binds us as a species. Now, kinda put yerself in LuciferSam's shoes. If you were ridiculed and made fun of by, say, black kids, when you were a kid, wouldn't you have a less favorable view of black people than someone who wasn't assaulted?

BlackBillBlake

07-29-2004, 11:23 PM

Theres a kind of intolerance on both sides - some, not all, christians are very narrow and condemn anyone who isn't a christian, or even a christian of their particular brand. Many people form their impressions of christianity from such people's ravings.

Many critcs are not well informed about the beliefs held by modern christians - they think people still believe as they did in the middle-ages. And to some extent , where 'fundamentalists' are concerned, this is true. But the 'official' doctrine of the catholic church, for example, has moved on a long way since then.
Also - and crucially - the church, and therefore christianity is seen as too much a part of the establishment - part of the framework of authority. The teachings of christianity seem to many to have been distorted beyond all recognition to render the thing a useful tool in the hands of the 'controllers'.
The other major factor that I think puts off a lot of folks, esp. the young, is a percieved 'anti-sex' factor.

roly

07-29-2004, 11:27 PM

usually when christian places are being attacked its because the christian people are doing stomething right....i.e. rejecting the devil. Perhaps the reason that this forum is being attacked because v#before the attack we were pleasing God and worrying the devil.

roly.xxx

seamonster66

07-29-2004, 11:30 PM

Quote from Warrior: sea: I have fought, and won my fights, against minorities, (hispanics and blacks). I have never to my knowledge had a physical confrontation with a gay person.
Perhaps you should study a bit about National Socialism before claiming that it does not mix with Christianity. You may be mistaking Communism for Socialism. It happens alot.

Here is a quote from poor persecuted warrior, a holocaust denier and racist nazi.

Mui

07-29-2004, 11:35 PM

christinity is the big abstinance... it is illogical, and foolish (imo), and is actually very bad for a person to live their life around... therefore why I would consider myself one of these... "anti-christians"

christians on hipforums are a lot different than 90% of the christians i meet around my town though...

still still, no reason to be pro-christian

roly

07-29-2004, 11:36 PM

Mui

07-29-2004, 11:44 PM

well not speaking for all of you :D, i haven tmet all of you... but some of the christians on hipforums are a lot more PEACE LOVING, liberal, and intelligent than the christians i meet round here.

loverofthewoods

07-30-2004, 01:14 AM

campbell34

07-30-2004, 05:44 AM

well not speaking for all of you :D, i haven tmet all of you... but some of the christians on hipforums are a lot more PEACE LOVING, liberal, and intelligent than the christians i meet round here.
-That's because usually it is the true Christians that like to talk about God and the Christians who "worship Jesus with their lips" are the ones that warm up the church seats and never say a word to anyone about their faith.

Jesus said. "These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me."-Matt. 15:8

"They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him."-Titus 1:16

Not everyone that says that they are a Christian is a Christian. Please do not be fooled.

Real American

07-30-2004, 09:26 AM

the fact that one can offer proof that christianity is nothing more than stories and still be "ignorant"..."uneducated"..."evil" and everything else non-believers are called makes me a bit cynical towards christianity...also i grew up in utah in an area where at least 90% are mormons...and the massive indoctrination that goes on all around me has made me want nothing to do with others who shove spiritual ideas down my throat...i chose along time ago to not believe anything anyone tells me when it comes to spirituality, but instead find god on my own path. Visit one of the other threads concerning proving us wrong. In truth, The Bible proves us right. It is sad that every apple tree has bad apples. What is worse are that so many people want to judge a whole group bassed on the actions of just a few.

The fact that I can offer proof that The Bible is true should not make you cynical, but should make you realize the lies you have been told.
http://www.apologeticsinfo.org/papers/trustworthinessofthebible.html

POPthree13

07-30-2004, 11:15 PM

Oh the lies... yeah them. I can see how people get fed up with this same message over and over again. The lies throughout history are easy to spot. They are not the messages that come from research, from science, from our hearts.

We have been told lies for nearly two thousand years now (the earth is flat, it is the center of the universe, we were sculpted out of mud, god created the earth 6000 years ago.. etc. etc.) and just now are we beginning to lift the veil from the dark age where you are TOLD what is true. Find out for yourself and you will see past the lies too.

abbadabba

07-30-2004, 11:54 PM

By the large number of threads started to attack Christians and the huge volume of posts against Christians, I am compelled to ask, "Why? Why do so many deem it neccessary to attack the morals and beliefs of Christians?" Most will come to the defense of religions, and nonreligions that are not Christian based, but rarely does one come to the defense of Christians. There are many religions and beliefs that are much older than Christianity, but they are not attacked. A lot of what I read against Christianity is that it is old, or outdated. Seems to me that by that reasoning, no belief system beyond last year is worthy of believing. What do Christian bashers gain by thier assaults on Christians?
People like YOU are the reason so many agnostics and atheists are repulsed by Christianity in general. Is it fair that some of us condemn an entire religion based on the actions of a few morons like you? No, just like it isn't fair that you condemn entire races, religions, and sexual orientations based on whatever idiotic nazi reasons you use to back them up.

I clicked on this thread prepared to say something along the lines of "That isn't true...Christians aren't persecuted." Then I saw who started the thread. Warrior, you are the embodiment of everything that so many people find despicable about Christianity. You need to ask yourself "What would Jesus do?" instead of just displaying the bumper sticker next to the Confederate flag and swastika.

loverofthewoods

07-31-2004, 02:10 AM

Visit one of the other threads concerning proving us wrong. In truth, The Bible proves us right. It is sad that every apple tree has bad apples. What is worse are that so many people want to judge a whole group bassed on the actions of just a few.

The fact that I can offer proof that The Bible is true should not make you cynical, but should make you realize the lies you have been told.
http://www.apologeticsinfo.org/papers/trustworthinessofthebible.html
i suppose i should put a warning on here...DONT READ IF YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN AND AFRAID TO QUESTION WHAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN TOLD TO YOU

instead of type up my whole bit again ill quote it from another thread...
christianity is recycled paganism...they borrowed the stories, just changed the names and places.

here are some more deities that tell teh same "jesus" story:

Adad of Assyria
Adonis, Apollo, Heracles ("Hercules") and Zeus of Greece
Alcides of Thebes
Attis of Phrygia
Baal of Phoenicia
Bali of Afghanistan
Beddru of Japan
Buddha of India
Crite of Chaldea
Deva Tat of Siam
Hesus of the Druids
Horus, Osiris, and Serapis of Egypt, whose long-haired, bearded appearance was adopted for the Christ character
Indra of Tibet/India
Jao of Nepal
Krishna of India
Mikado of the Sintoos
Mithra of Persia
Odin of the Scandinavians
Prometheus of Caucasus/Greece
Quetzalcoatl of Mexico
Salivahana of Bermuda
Tammuz of Syria (who was, in a typical mythmaking move, later turned into the disciple Thomas)
Thor of the Gauls
Universal Monarch of the Sibyls
Wittoba of the Bilingonese
Xamolxis of Thrace
Zarathustra/Zoroaster of Persia
Zoar of the Bonzes

loverofthewoods

07-31-2004, 02:12 AM

Horus of Egypt

Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave/manger, with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.
He was a child teacher in the Temple and was baptized when he was 30 years old.
Horus was also baptized by "Anup the Baptizer," who becomes "John the Baptist."
He had 12 disciples.
He performed miracles and raised one man, El-Azar-us, from the dead.
He walked on water.
Horus was transfigured on the Mount.
He was crucified, buried in a tomb and resurrected.
He was also the "Way, the Truth, the Light, the Messiah, God's Anointed Son, the Son of Man, the Good Shepherd, the Lamb of God, the Word" etc.
He was "the Fisher," and was associated with the Lamb, Lion and Fish ("Ichthys").
Horus's personal epithet was "Iusa," the "ever-becoming son" of "Ptah," the "Father."
Horus was called "the KRST," or "Anointed One," long before the Christians duplicated the story.

123456789

loverofthewoods

07-31-2004, 02:13 AM

Mythra of Persia

Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25th.
He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
He had 12 companions or disciples.
He performed miracles.
He was buried in a tomb.
After three days he rose again.
His resurrection was celebrated every year.
Mithra was called "the Good Shepherd."
He was considered "the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah."
He was identified with both the Lion and the Lamb.
His sacred day was Sunday, "the Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
Mithra had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter, at which time he was resurrected.
His religion had a Eucharist or "Lord's Supper"
is any of this sounding familiar yet?

loverofthewoods

07-31-2004, 02:19 AM

Krishna of India

Krishna was born of the Virgin Devaki ("Divine One")
His father was a carpenter.
His birth was attended by angels, wise men and shepherds, and he was presented with gold, frankincense and myrrh.
He was persecuted by a tyrant who ordered the slaughter of thousands of infants.
He was of royal descent.
He was baptized in the River Ganges.
He worked miracles and wonders.
He raised the dead and healed lepers, the deaf and the blind.
Krishna used parables to teach the people about charity and love.
"He lived poor and he loved the poor."
He was transfigured in front of his disciples.
In some traditions he died on a tree or was crucified between two thieves.
He rose from the dead and ascended to heaven.
Krishna is called the "Shepherd God" and "Lord of lords," and was considered "the Redeemer, Firstborn, Sin Bearer, Liberator, Universal Word."
He is the second person of the Trinity, and proclaimed himself the "Resurrection" and the "way to the Father."
He was considered the "Beginning, the Middle and the End," ("Alpha and Omega"), as well as being omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent.
His disciples bestowed upon him the title "Jezeus," meaning "pure essence."
Krishna is to return to do battle with the "Prince of Evil," who will desolate the earth.

Must i continue? if you dont belive me i DARE you to do the research all these dieties were worshiped long before christ was said to have lived...im not saying there isnt some truth in the stories, but i think the bible very inaccurate...it contains more translation errors than any other book in history. go back to the source if your looking for the truth, ancient egypt is the farthest back i can trace these stories...other than possibly atlantis...but thats just a myth, right??? anyway there is much more i could type up that has nothing to do with older versions of the same stories that would discredit the bible but id rather not take the time... unless you really want me to

themakerofmonkeys

07-31-2004, 02:33 AM

Personally, im not really a religious person at all because all religons are man made and they all change to fit what is going on in the world today. I just kinda take from each religon. I used to be catholic but its just not me. I dont find catholics tend to be closed minded and not always excepting of other religons, that probably contributes to people being anti-christians.

loverofthewoods

07-31-2004, 02:44 AM

I do not know of these fake gods you mention. However, what I could assume is that whoever created that particular religion associated with those fake gods liked what Jesus stood for but disagreed with a few things so they copied Christianity and changed what made them happy. Just an assumption on my part, I'll look further into it. Meanwhile, why not show me a credable source of info that shows text concerning these fake gods dating further back than say 40 B.C.like i said, all the "fake gods" i mentioned were worshiped long before christ.

horus was worshiped in egypt over 5000 years ago. its history bro

campbell34

07-31-2004, 05:52 AM

Popthree,

"We have been told lies for nearly two thousand years now (the earth is flat..."

-Can you please tell roughly when it was discovered that the earth was round?

Epiphany

07-31-2004, 06:41 AM

like i said, all the "fake gods" i mentioned were worshiped long before christ.

horus was worshiped in egypt over 5000 years ago. its history bro

that is why God said in the very first commandment, "I am the Lord your God, you shall have no other gods except me".

Warrior

07-31-2004, 07:46 AM

People like YOU are the reason so many agnostics and atheists are repulsed by Christianity in general. Is it fair that some of us condemn an entire religion based on the actions of a few morons like you? No, just like it isn't fair that you condemn entire races, religions, and sexual orientations based on whatever idiotic nazi reasons you use to back them up.

I clicked on this thread prepared to say something along the lines of "That isn't true...Christians aren't persecuted." Then I saw who started the thread. Warrior, you are the embodiment of everything that so many people find despicable about Christianity. You need to ask yourself "What would Jesus do?" instead of just displaying the bumper sticker next to the Confederate flag and swastika.
This thread was set up to ask, "why" the anger towards Christians, not "This is another good place to bash Christians". I would love to respond to your personal insults, but my hands are tied and so therefore I will not respond to anything that is not "on topic". This is only to remind everyone what the topic is. Thank you.

abbadabba

07-31-2004, 11:05 AM

This thread was set up to ask, "why" the anger towards Christians, not "This is another good place to bash Christians". I would love to respond to your personal insults, but my hands are tied and so therefore I will not respond to anything that is not "on topic". This is only to remind everyone what the topic is. Thank you.
Fair enough. I gave an "on-topic" answer: The reason that some atheists and agnostics dislike Christians is because they live in communities surrounded by YOUR brand of Christianity, which any rational person (Christian or non-Christian) finds offensive. If my knowledge of Christianity was limited to the things you've posted on this forum, I'd probably be anti-Christian too.

Warrior

07-31-2004, 12:48 PM

Fair enough. I gave an "on-topic" answer: The reason that some atheists and agnostics dislike Christians is because they live in communities surrounded by YOUR brand of Christianity, which any rational person (Christian or non-Christian) finds offensive. If my knowledge of Christianity was limited to the things you've posted on this forum, I'd probably be anti-Christian too.Although you are still off topic, I am going to respond to you at the risk of being banned.

My "brand" of Christianity is probably less than 1% of Christians. I am a Christian who fights fire with fire and one who is willing to fight to the death for my God and my Saviour. Why not? Jesus died for me. Am I too valuable to die for Him? I have the heart that my God gifted me with and it is much like the one He gifted to warriors such as 'Joan of Arc' and others who did not stand by and watch evil destroy the words of God. No, I am not a saint, but I am my God and Saviours sword on this forum. I am not a "we love you and forgive you anti-Christ "Christian", I am the real deal. Had it not been for men and women through out the ages like me there would be no Christianity. They would have never fashioned a sword against the hate that comes from people like you. This site is full of "love thy neighbor" fools who would continue to try to reason with the unreasonable untill the unreasonable removed thier so-called "Christian" heads. Come for mine and God will give me the power to remove 100 of yours.

In response to your pathetic excuse for being anti-Christian. People do not live in communities surrounded by my "brand of Christianity". They live in communities much like this one, a very tolerant and forgiving little "if we love everyone the bad will go away." Strangly, they are like that but the bad such as yourself plagues them even more.

You know what? This is my thread. I know that topics change as they progress in a thread, therefore, you nor I am off topic. We are following simple progression.

Epiphany

07-31-2004, 01:50 PM

My "brand" of Christianity is probably less than 1% of Christians.
I have to agree. I wish my, "brand", of Christianity was being taught today. It seems that mostly mainstream Christianity is being preached. It's giving people this notion that as long as you say you believe in Jesus and you show up to church, then you are saved. There is so much more than that.

BlackBillBlake

07-31-2004, 02:53 PM

Although you are still off topic, I am going to respond to you at the risk of being banned.

My "brand" of Christianity is probably less than 1% of Christians. I am a Christian who fights fire with fire and one who is willing to fight to the death for my God and my Saviour. Why not? Jesus died for me. Am I too valuable to die for Him? I have the heart that my God gifted me with and it is much like the one He gifted to warriors such as 'Joan of Arc' and others who did not stand by and watch evil destroy the words of God. No, I am not a saint, but I am my God and Saviours sword on this forum. I am not a "we love you and forgive you anti-Christ "Christian", I am the real deal. Had it not been for men and women through out the ages like me there would be no Christianity. They would have never fashioned a sword against the hate that comes from people like you. This site is full of "love thy neighbor" fools who would continue to try to reason with the unreasonable untill the unreasonable removed thier so-called "Christian" heads. Come for mine and God will give me the power to remove 100 of yours.

I am not anti-Christian, but really I think this sort of talk is one of the main reasons a lot of folks are.
Clearly, Christianity has done nothing to reduce your egotism - 'I am the real deal' - but Jesus forgave even those who murdered him.
If I were you I would seriously consider beating this sword you express such enthusiasm for into a ploughshare.
As for 'reasoning with the unreasonable' - no logical proof exists of God's existence, so it is not unreasonable to have doubts. What is not acceptable is the promotion of your Christian belief through negative attitudes towards non-believers. All that will do is harden them in their unbelief. An intelligent presentation of Christ's teaching, done with sensitivity and love is the only hope to convince the sceptic.

loverofthewoods

07-31-2004, 05:03 PM

that is why God said in the very first commandment, "I am the Lord your God, you shall have no other gods except me".
did you even read my posts? my point was ...fuck it, nevermind.

i am officially quitting the christian forum...it was never really my place to throw this shit out there to begin with i suppose, who am i to try to get others to ask questions about their faith instead of follow blindly. i guess what ever makes you happy is best for you though.

you just cant have a resonable debate with a christian...i offer proof, they offer bible passages. anyway, im done here

Tristen

07-31-2004, 05:33 PM

People often argue against what they don't fully understand.
Think about quote above... That's all I am going to say..

Also, stop..Thanks

Lilyrayne

07-31-2004, 05:41 PM

Warrior, you need to learn to open your eyes and your heart. You are about to get yourself disrepected and disliked by both Christians AND Non-Christians with this "Holier than thou" act of yours. I know you're not going to listen, so all I can do is pray for you that you will see the light.

I am willing to do whatever God wants me to do, just like you. But what God wants me to do may be different than what God wants you to do, and just because it is different doesn't mean that one of us is wrong. Even if it meant one of us was wrong, you do not have the right to say that what you believe is "the true way" and everyone else is screwed.

I've been reading your posts. While I appreciate that you are "on fire" for God and you feel so strong in your convictions, I think there is a lot you need to learn, because you aren't gonna get anywhere being the way you are. You are too focused on "the rules" instead of on what it's really all about. I feel sorry for you, because you dig yourself into a hole and then wonder why no one wants to help you out of it. Your words are hurtful to Christians and especially to non-Christians, and I know that is something God doesn't want. I wish you knew it.

I know that, being the way you are, you are going to continue to be stubborn and full of yourself. But I tried. You'll be in my prayers. I know God loves me and listens to me, even if by your personal, deluded, close-minded, unaccepting, unloving, and unJesus-like standards I am not a "true Christian". I know I am. That's what is important.

sweatininthesouth

07-31-2004, 05:56 PM

My "brand" of Christianity is probably less than 1% of Christians. I am a Christian who fights fire with fire and one who is willing to fight to the death for my God and my Saviour.

Osama bin Laden is saying the same thing about his "brand" of Islam. Warrior, it is YOUR kind and bin Laden's kind that are ripping this world apart over your "brand" of religion.....it is sickening. You and he are the same, cut out of the same cloth.....don't you see it! You are blinded by your own hate. You have NO love in your heart and neither does bin Laden.

Do you have children??? What kind of children are you raising, Warrior? God help your kids, because you sure aren't! You sound like a card-carrying member of the Klan. You, are a very, very scary person and I thank God you are not my neighbor.

peace_sells

07-31-2004, 08:27 PM

ok I have been brought up in christianity. I have been to several different denomination churches. I know the ins and the outs. I won't say I'm an expert because I think it would be wrong for anyone to say that.
But being brought up in those surroundings my whole life I never knew any other kind of path. My eyes were always shielded from the other religions and my parents became worried if I started to investigate - what were they trying to hide? A whole load of new perspectives on things.
There is nothing you can do to say "Christianity is right" because none of us know. None of us have FACT that Christianity is right because otherwise everyone would believe it. All religions eventually come down to the same things, they're all just versions and versions, yet you tell the other religions that they are wrong. Something that we don't even know.
I think it's the people who Christianity has been imposed on throughout their life that are more likely to be anti-christian - take maralyn manson for example - if you read his autobiography you'll see exactly WHY he's turned out how he has.

peace_sells

07-31-2004, 08:29 PM

I think most of the time it's actually the Christians who turn people against God. It's nothing to do with rebelling against God or the good book or anything. Just the people.

roly

07-31-2004, 09:59 PM

like i said, all the "fake gods" i mentioned were worshiped long before christ.

horus was worshiped in egypt over 5000 years ago. its history bro

just coz these so called deities were apparently around before Jesus doesn't make them real. Jesus is the truth.....bro.

roly.xxx

roly

07-31-2004, 10:02 PM

LuciferSam

07-31-2004, 10:19 PM

just coz these so called deities were apparently around before Jesus doesn't make them real. Jesus is the truth.....bro.

roly.xxx Wow! Such a convincing argument!:p

Doesn't make Jesus real either. It's stuff like this, I think, that makes Christians look silly - this whole you-don't-know-the-truth junk. Your religion is a faith, man, not fact. That's what makes religion religion. Now you have your opinions, of course, but it doesn't excuse arrogant, holier-than-thou condescension.

FreakyJoeMan

07-31-2004, 10:52 PM

It's funny, christians, to a person of another religion's eyes, you astray, walking off the Holy Path. And they wish that they could make you see the light, but you can't force someone to do that. We're all going to hell, in someone elses eyes.

loverofthewoods

08-01-2004, 12:04 AM

just coz these so called deities were apparently around before Jesus doesn't make them real. Jesus is the truth.....bro.

roly.xxx
i never said they were real...i simply said christianity borrowed its stories and symbolism from other dieties. and i thought i did a pretty good job at giving evidence to support my statement, but i guess you cant make people see what they dont want to see

campbell34

08-01-2004, 03:01 AM

This can counter a couple of peoples posts but especially loverofthewood's post. You say that the stories of the Bible where copied off from other religions, then why are there chariot wheels dated back to the time of Moses. And there aren't just chariot wheels on the bottom there are whole chariots, there are spairs, and humans remains. Go read the story of the red sea crossing-if you forgot and then go to this site... http://www.arkdiscovery.com/red_sea_crossing.htm

http://www.arkdiscovery.com/exwheel3.JPG

and by the way Ron Wyatt is not the only one that has gone down and researched this- many others have.... so please don't try to discredit Ron Wyatt.

I'll be gone for 2 weeks on a fishing trip... so I wont be able to hear your lovely respones.

roly

08-01-2004, 04:10 PM

Wow! Such a convincing argument!:p

Doesn't make Jesus real either. It's stuff like this, I think, that makes Christians look silly - this whole you-don't-know-the-truth junk. Your religion is a faith, man, not fact. That's what makes religion religion. Now you have your opinions, of course, but it doesn't excuse arrogant, holier-than-thou condescension.

It IS fact however if u have felt God....and in honesty you're right i cant explain this....except to say its the truth coz i've felt it....thats the problem y'see.....'til you've felt it ur gonna mock it, i kno i did so i cant really judge you either...however i quite liked my witty *coughs* bro thing! lol! PLus i'm not arrogant or holier than thou.....i totally understand how annoying christians can be.....i used to think so too.

roly.xxx

roly

08-01-2004, 04:13 PM

i never said they were real...i simply said christianity borrowed its stories and symbolism from other dieties. and i thought i did a pretty good job at giving evidence to support my statement, but i guess you cant make people see what they dont want to see

I tried to see ur point but y'see the Bible tells me that my God is the only one....just coz there are loads of religions brfore christianity and they are similar to it doesn't mean that Chrstianity took these ideas...its a coincidence. The Bible was written as an account for real events as well as parables.

roly.xxx

LuciferSam

08-01-2004, 05:05 PM

and by the way Ron Wyatt is not the only one that has gone down and researched this- many others have.... so please don't try to discredit Ron Wyatt. Sorry but I'm gonna have to do that anyway:p

http://www.tentmaker.org/WAR/ Bam.

Ron Wyatt was full of it, not terribly surprising, 'cuz otherwise it would've obviously been a much bigger story. Just another case of people exploiting the faithful's will to believe. And that link's coming from a Christian site too.

Enjoy your fishing trip, though.

It IS fact however if u have felt God....and in honesty you're right i cant explain this....except to say its the truth coz i've felt it....thats the problem y'see.....'til you've felt it ur gonna mock it, i kno i did so i cant really judge you either...however i quite liked my witty *coughs* bro thing! lol! PLus i'm not arrogant or holier than thou.....i totally understand how annoying christians can be.....i used to think so too. That's better, I'm fine with that, since you acknowledge it's a subjective view.

roly

08-02-2004, 12:09 AM

Sorry but I'm gonna have to do that anyway:p

http://www.tentmaker.org/WAR/ Bam.

Ron Wyatt was full of it, not terribly surprising, 'cuz otherwise it would've obviously been a much bigger story. Just another case of people exploiting the faithful's will to believe. And that link's coming from a Christian site too.

Enjoy your fishing trip, though.

That's better, I'm fine with that, since you acknowledge it's a subjective view.

hoorah!

roly.xxx

SimpleMan

08-03-2004, 11:01 PM

remember that christians once tried to erase other religons. this is way back mind u. but it has always been looked at that christianity is a violent religon. and then compare it to buddism and u look like the warlords of the world. u asked u got an answer from a non believer. don't bite my head off.

There was a time in history when rulers who were govered by Satan tried to spread Christianity throughout the world by the sword....its sad.

NO true Christian would do that nor would have. Its just that simple. Christianity is not complex...the devil would like and does make you think that. (Thats not directed at you meiska)

loverofthewoods

08-03-2004, 11:30 PM

There was a time in history when rulers who were govered by Satan tried to spread Christianity throughout the world by the sword....its sad.

you'd think god would take better care of his church then do somthing like let satan run it...

HonkyTonk

08-04-2004, 04:43 AM

Ah, but why would God mettle in the affairs of mortals? I think part of the reason that christainity is becoming more militant is that much of it's public veiws and symbols are being labeled "discrimatory" or "prejudiced". Which in my veiw it isn't. The 10 commandments are not only a historic cornerstone of most modern western laws, but they are also very true. "Thou shalt have no other gods before", this could be taken as totally and arrogantly christain, but take it as a veiw of yours. For example, let's say you're an atheist and you believe that you are god, in that case you want no one else veiwed higher than you in YOUR eyes. I see no point in ripping down these old religious symbols, they aren't offensive unless you make them so.

LuciferSam

08-04-2004, 05:23 AM

Uhh... that doesn't make sense. Atheists don't believe that they themselves are gods, because atheists don't believe in gods.

HonkyTonk

08-04-2004, 05:53 AM

I was trying to make a point. Just see things as you want to see them. Do you find anything offensive about the 10 commandments?

LuciferSam

08-04-2004, 06:17 AM

:Shrug: Offended wouldn't be the right word, it's pretty hard to offend me. I don't say that there's nothing meritable about the Ten Commandments, but I think when we want to incorporate its ideas into government we could just easily sift out the good advice that's in it without having to patronize a religion. I'm not really offended by it but I don't think we need the religious connotation either.

Epiphany

08-04-2004, 10:31 AM

Ah, but why would God mettle in the affairs of mortals?
God created us. We are his children. When your children do something that you specifically asked them not to do, wouldn't you interfere? Of course, it seems that parents are too self-involved nowadays to be part of their childrens lives. Their kids are having sex at earlier ages, walking around baring half of their bodies, doing drugs, drinking, and disregarding all sense of morals and vaules. Most parents walk around, blind to it all.

LuciferSam

08-04-2004, 05:07 PM

Eh, I more see it as more parents realizing that a lot of traditional morals and such aren't really as important or as valid as they were made out to be, and some parents can trust their kids to do those things (more or less) responsibly. Just my opinion though. I don't unequivocably support all those activities you've mentioned, but it's also more of a personal choice thing.

HonkyTonk

08-05-2004, 02:59 AM

Well, things do seem to be morally defunct today, but i wasn't around during the golden generation so i can't compare things. A decline in religion though usually signals an immense collapse in morals as well.

LuciferSam

08-05-2004, 05:07 AM

Well, morals are mostly a relative thing, once you get past the basic don't-kill-steal-harm-people mark. Not everyone has to fit within one precise set of morals.

HonkyTonk

08-06-2004, 05:26 AM

Still a lack of morals is usually the beginning of the end for anything. Rome, Sodom, the Mongol Empire, European Colonies (but WW2 had alot to do with that) all fell after a decline in morality.

thespeez

08-06-2004, 07:31 AM

What most people who consider themselves "Christian" fail to realize is that their religion has been infiltrated for roughly the last 1,700 years. During the time of persecution, Christians were probably the only group who truly understood what the meaning of respecting life was all about. They refused to engage in horrific pagan rituals such as live human and animal sacrifices, among other sick rituals.

As Christianity was gaining acceptance in the Roman empire, it became apparent to the leaders at that time that they should use this surge in popularity as a means of infiltrating and perverting Christianity. By creating a state church or religion, this became one of the catalysts for holding together the Roman Empire at a time when it had fallen into much disarray. When the persecutions ended during the early 4th century, fights began to erupt between individuals who were loyal to the church in Rome and those who were loyal to the church in Alexandria. This led to the council of Nicea in 325 A.D., where church officials decided what was to become official church doctrine. Three-hundred bishops walked out of that council. Much of the motives of why this council took place were for reasons of political expediency and not for spiritual integrity, but it was sold as the former. Many of the ramifications from that council are still being felt today.

Because most of the "Christian" churches that exist today were built upon Roman Catholic doctrine, they adopted many of the heresies that that church held. Many of the beliefs held by christians after nicea of 'abstaining' from various 'sins,' were in actuality euphemisms for something much more horrific than any civil human being could ever imagine!

When certain "Christians" talk of the ten commandments they hold views on that document that are questionably true. Many fail to take into account what the language meant at the time. I've heard many fundamentalists state to me a statement that God "hates" one thing or another. What these people have done is violate the following commandments: Bearing false witness, using the Lord's name in vain, and committing adultery. In the former two cases, this is violated by promoting a message which is contrary to the true meaning of the Word and stating that God is someone He is not. In the last case the misuse of scripture caould also be defined as betrayal, which was the origional meaning of adultery-not necessairly the infidelity that we think of today.

It's no wonder why some people who consider themselves to be decent folks are often turned away from Christianity because of the dogmatism that has perverted it. It is up to those of us to expose the deceptions and beat the manipulators at their own game. Do get a chance to look at the following sites who do a decent job trying to reveal Christianity's true message:
http://www.religioustolerance.org (http://www.religioustolerance.org/)
http://freechristians.com/Site_Contents.htm
http://www.americanunitarian.org (http://www.americanunitarian.org/)

BlackBillBlake

08-06-2004, 01:31 PM

If it were not for the church, corrupt as it may have been during certain historical periods, I doubt anything of Christianity would survive to-day. It would very likely have been lost, as were many other cults and religions, with the collapse of the Roman Empire. Therefore the church has been the custodian of Christian teaching, even at times of its worst excesses of coruption in the renaissance. And when we speak of the church, do we mean the people at the top, or the ordinary, sincere christian?

The thing is fraught with contradiction - who represents better the medieval church, Saint Francis, or pope Alexander?

LuciferSam

08-07-2004, 08:45 PM

roly

08-12-2004, 08:59 PM

Defence_mechanism

08-13-2004, 09:50 AM

i dislike christianity because it dislikes me.

im gay.

mynameiskc

08-13-2004, 06:29 PM

i dislike christianity because it dislikes me.

im gay.
so what? i'm a sinner. i like women, i like men, i think lustful thoughts constantly. get over it. ;)

Jozak

08-14-2004, 11:10 AM

i suppose i should put a warning on here...DONT READ IF YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN AND AFRAID TO QUESTION WHAT HAS ALWAYS BEEN TOLD TO YOU

instead of type up my whole bit again ill quote it from another thread...
christianity is recycled paganism...they borrowed the stories, just changed the names and places.

[/list]
This is probably not a Christian belief, per se....But I seriously am thinking about this, let me know what you think ( I am a devout Catholic/Christian btw)

I think this proves--all those stories--are all the same god, he is just using differnet names and such for different people and cultures so they can know who he is. Think about this one too--all of the women goddesses--Gia--Mother earth--I think that is a form of the Virgin Mary--to appeal to other people. I obviously think it's Christ and God taking on the forms of these other beings, but it would just show how untied we are as people more than divided. Any thoughts on this, or is this not making any sense? It's late, but my mom and I were talking about this and she thinks what I think to. (Actually, my mom is a Catholic "Witch"---its the coolest thing I have ever seen in my life. If you are confused on what that is, look it up OR PM me ill let you know.)

Jozak

08-14-2004, 11:19 AM

True, and the church itself owed its existance and power to the Roman Empire, specifically Emperor Constantine.

But also, you can also say that if it weren't for the church, there would be many more widely different variations of Christianity than there are today, assuming that any of it would have survived. The Church dogmatically stomped out any differing faction of Christianity when it gained power, any variation it deemed unorthodox.
Minus Catholic/Orthodox Churches, There are somthing like 10,000+ different Protestant denominations. I don't know how many more you would want lol.:p

Christianity would have certainly have fallen had the Church not organized itself the way it did, I would bet money on it.

bandit28

08-14-2004, 11:55 AM

To many people here are confusing religion with Christianity. To many folks are implying that if you go to church you are being brain washed. Well, If you are a true Christian, you study The Word of God, ask for wisdom and guidence, and listen to what The Holy Spirit tells you about these things. You don't need to pray to Mary, or any other saints. You don't have to go into a booth and confess your sins to get to heaven. You don't have to ride around on your bike and pass out books that have nothing to do with Jesus Christ. All you have to do is put you whole heart into believing and relying in and on Jesus Christ. Accept Him as your saviour, and you are guaranteed a spot in Heaven, reject Him, and you will have front row seats in hell.

You all can doubt all you want to. Do your best to derail Christianity. Those that call themselves Christians yet don't follow The Word of God will be easily swayed. However, those that do their best to live according to God's will and Jesus's teachings in The Bible will find themselves attacked on a daily basis.

PS
Come on God, I am ready for this all to end, let's light this place up and move on.

glynos

08-14-2004, 01:16 PM

Pretending to believe in something doesn't really work with me. Convincing myself of such a farce to make myself feel better about my mortality also isn't my style. Besides, in heaven, all the interesting people are missing.

steffan

08-14-2004, 01:51 PM

the majority of the things that put a black mark on history are centered around that cult, and stiil it continues. from the genacide of countless great peoples to flying planes into buildings, ( i know there called muslims or some such shit, but to me,, the same book, the same religon) I infuriates me that people can limit themselves in such a fasion, to beleive in something that makes absolutly no sence what so ever, how, why would the creator of the entire universe act that way, feel the need too? and when you ask "why did god tell the isrealites to destroy the zenanites, the men woman children animals? or why did he/it just do this? all you get for a response is god works in mysterous ways" or " have faith".. faith yaeh right, i have faith, faith in my ability to see right from wrong,
maybe im just vain, but why would god tell some unknown person or persons the secrets of the universe but not tell me? and how could he give me a mind and then say if you want to live in paradise dont use it. personaly i believe the universe is probaly aware of itself and i try to fallow the "golden rule" thats all i realy can do, but i will not! conform to beliefs of strangers, sorry if i have offended anyone, but i got to say have you actualy read that book? I'm meen realy read it? ask yourself with the mind you have been given , does this petty god sound like a entity worth giving yourself too?,, maybe i'm wrong, maybe i'm not but i have no choice but to keep my mind open and to learn

mynameiskc

08-14-2004, 05:27 PM

most of us christians spend a great deal of time reading that book. and yeah, we still think it's worth it. i don't think anyone's going to be offended by your post, though. it's just how you feel. i was there once, too. then something happened to me. too long to explain, really, but if you want, i can tell you how and angry person like me, raised among angry atheists, ended up changing my mind. it's pretty personal, though, and i don't want to post it in the open yet. it's still pretty raw.

loverofthewoods

08-15-2004, 12:40 AM

This is probably not a Christian belief, per se....But I seriously am thinking about this, let me know what you think ( I am a devout Catholic/Christian btw)

I think this proves--all those stories--are all the same god, he is just using differnet names and such for different people and cultures so they can know who he is. Think about this one too--all of the women goddesses--Gia--Mother earth--I think that is a form of the Virgin Mary--to appeal to other people. I obviously think it's Christ and God taking on the forms of these other beings, but it would just show how untied we are as people more than divided. Any thoughts on this, or is this not making any sense? It's late, but my mom and I were talking about this and she thinks what I think to. (Actually, my mom is a Catholic "Witch"---its the coolest thing I have ever seen in my life. If you are confused on what that is, look it up OR PM me ill let you know.)i would agree with the statement in bold....but i dont think we have a reliable source of information that accuratly depicts the truth. i also dont really think it matters that we dont. the path to god lies within....not in a book, or church, or a man that supposedly lived and died thousands of years ago

(if christ did live i wouldnt say he was the savior but rather a master of that invisible energy that connects us all....there have been many throughout the ages who have been able to harness it....christ no different...)

bandit28

08-16-2004, 03:39 AM

there have been many throughout the ages who have been able to harness it....christ no different...) Really? Name a few. Oh, and make sure they walked on water without using some device(there must be witneses), that they fed 3,000 people with a few loaves of bread and fish, that they cured diseases with just a touch or word, oh, and lastly, that they died for our salvation.

loverofthewoods

08-16-2004, 04:34 AM

Really? Name a few. Oh, and make sure they walked on water without using some device(there must be witneses), that they fed 3,000 people with a few loaves of bread and fish, that they cured diseases with just a touch or word, oh, and lastly, that they died for our salvation.does it even matter? you wouldnt believe me anyway...the "miracles" jesus is said to have performed are within all our abilities, but few ever master the skills. call it Psi, Ki, Manna whatever...its just energy, and learning to control that energy through the mind is somthing many have been able to do... the buddas, the shaman of peru, many occultists (btw occult simply means hidden knowledge)... its not easy and takes hard work but it isnt impossible. the power of the mind is far greater than most can comprehend let alone believe.

...we are all gods, gods that havent a clue...

mynameiskc

08-16-2004, 04:47 AM

i think that christ was sinless and sacrificed himself is the most important part of his life. as for his miracles and healings, like lover here said, many are capable of this, as gifts from god. look at the miracles and healings done by his apostles after his death.

Defence_mechanism

08-16-2004, 07:29 AM

so what? i'm a sinner. i like women, i like men, i think lustful thoughts constantly. get over it.what? get over that christianity, or rather the church, has organised itself in such a way as to hate me? i dont think i will. ill get over it when they do.

im aware not all christians are homophobic, but i think its wrong that an institution that promotes love of all cannot get over the differences of others.

mynameiskc

08-16-2004, 08:05 AM

what? get over that christianity, or rather the church, has organised itself in such a way as to hate me? i dont think i will. ill get over it when they do.

im aware not all christians are homophobic, but i think its wrong that an institution that promotes love of all cannot get over the differences of others.
i'm a christian. i'm over it. i'm also not a member of a church. i prefer the company of the bible and some prayers to the company of most church-goers. people are fallablie and prone to prejudices and hatreds. whatever other gripes you may have against christianity, i don't find this one to be all that worth hanging onto.

bandit28

08-16-2004, 11:47 AM

i'm a christian. i'm over it. i'm also not a member of a church. i prefer the company of the bible and some prayers to the company of most church-goers. people are fallablie and prone to prejudices and hatreds. whatever other gripes you may have against christianity, i don't find this one to be all that worth hanging onto. Perfect example of someone not following The Bible. Find a church. If you concentrate of the negativity of people in the church, then you are letting Satan win. We are instructed to fellowship and praise. What better place to do it than in a church? Can't find a good one? Find one out of someones home, find something, but don't allow Satan to lure you away from the truth.

mynameiskc

08-16-2004, 05:35 PM

Perfect example of someone not following The Bible. Find a church. If you concentrate of the negativity of people in the church, then you are letting Satan win. We are instructed to fellowship and praise. What better place to do it than in a church? Can't find a good one? Find one out of someones home, find something, but don't allow Satan to lure you away from the truth.
the bible tells us to commune with believers for support of one another. this is what i prefer to do. there's nothing that says i have to attend church on the sabbath to commune with god, either. i have yet to find a single church not bogged down with rules and regulations that make no sense to me. people end up following the rules of a church instead of the rules of god. you may be willing to associate yourself with a people who find regulations written by men (with good intentions? perhaps) but i have little faith in men.

bandit28

08-16-2004, 09:21 PM

campbell34

08-16-2004, 10:23 PM

It is tuff to find a good church today. There are many corrupt churches. Wether it be with money, sex or lies good churches are scarce. I have attended numerous churches in my 19 years which is not saying much but the majority of them where not good. Most of what I have learned about the Bible and God is from my own research and my father. I have learned very little from church although I must say that the church I attend now is the best church I have ever been too. It is hard to put up an argument for going to church because lots churches and the people in the churches are so screwed up and do not even know what they believe. Which can mainly be the fault of poor preaching. I would still urged a person to go to church although there may be corruption in some churches; there is corruption everywhere. Not even Christians are perfect. You must search for the best church and I assure you there will be people there that trully love the Lord. They will help you grow closer to Christ.

I have put this own the forum before but here is what my dad wrote about churches.

"As the future of the human race progresses, we are approaching the time of the ultimate confrontation. The author of good and the embodiment of evil will meet to do battle at a place called Armageddon. As that final hour approaches, many Christians are asleep at the switch. Instead of warning the world of God's impending and inescapable judgement, many priests and ministers are preaching a "watered downed" gospel and turning their sanctuaries into social classrooms. They preach nothing but "feel good" messages. They spoon feed their congregation and actively resist any talk of Christ's return. These "feel good" churches are the leading cause of the "dumbing down" of the American Christian. The conflict in the Middle East, between Israel and its neighbors, is the beginning of the end of time as we know it. Yet, from so many pulpits across America, we hear nothing but silence, which has left large numbers of church attenders and young people clueless. If the church cannot find its voice and warn the world of God's Return, then who will? The signs of His coming are everywhere. Now is the time for all Christian churches to stand up, present the evidence of the coming of our Christ, and give a lost world a chance to be saved from the wrath of God--which will surely come."

mynameiskc

08-17-2004, 03:29 AM

Explain to me the rules that every church has that keep you from going there. Is it the "no running in hallways"? Perhaps it's the "no food allowed past this sign". Please, share with me these rules that every church has around you that keeps you from going.
well, all due respect to jozak, but my first church, being catholic had some shit that got under my skin, like papal infallibility, sunday sabbaths, and first communion rules.

the same went for my second church, the anglicans. basically catholic but without the pope.

the next was baptist. man, the people there were so unbelievable judgemental about homosexuals and sins, but had NO PROBLEM whatsoever making other people work on the sabbath (the after church lunch at denny's.) or violating other laws of god as long as they went on sundays.

then there was the SDA's. i rather enjoyed some of their practicl approaches to the studying of the OT and it's laws, but that whole vegan/vegetarian thing kinda wore on one after a while, as well as the rigid set of rules set down by their founders. there was also way to much emphasis placed ontheir personal prophetess. some interesting reading, and the bible clearly states that the gift of prophecy lives, but i'd rather read the bible first.

even the non-denom's people were making me crazy. hypocrites and liars leading the church. services and music that had no appeal or soul. people who also held no appeal for me. these are NOT my people. my people are thinkers, questioners, READERS, philosophers. not packs of people who don't bother to actually discuss the gospel or the bible in sunday schools.

i've sought, and i haven't found. what i HAVE found is peace in studying my bible. i ask a question, i get my answer. i have my like-minded friends and acquaintances who can disagree with me on a point in doctrine without losing their heads or think i'm "un-christian" or "un-patriotic" (i don't even know HOW that comes into the conversation, but it invariably does).

Jozak

08-17-2004, 07:40 AM

well, all due respect to jozak, but my first church, being catholic had some shit that got under my skin, like papal infallibility, sunday sabbaths, and first communion rules.
That's fine KC, if you disagree with something, I don't care, you are intelligent enough and respectfull enough of a person to say so. You don't have this blind hatred, so I have no problem.

The problem with papal infallibility is most people, even Catholics, for them; it's hard to understand. Most people think it means the pope is perfect. That's not what it means. (I am not saying you don't know what it means, but just posting this for everyone else.) The basic premise is from this verse in the bible, in which Jesus instructed the apostoles (bishops): "He who hears you hears me" (Luke 10:16), and "Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven" (Matt. 18:18). Another one is Luke 22:32--"I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail." It basically means, as I understand it as best I can, we beleive the Holy Spirit is guiding the Pope's decisions in the church, and that they will not fall away from the teachings of Christ.

This is a pretty good, simple understanding of it from Catholic writer Karl Keating:
["Christ instructed the Church to preach everything he taught (Matt. 28:19–20) and promised the protection of the Holy Spirit to "guide you into all the truth" (John 16:13). That mandate and that promise guarantee the Church will never fall away from his teachings (Matt. 16:18, 1 Tim. 3:15), even if individual Catholics might.
As Christians began to more clearly understand the teaching authority of the Church and of the primacy of the pope, they developed a clearer understanding of the pope’s infallibility. This development of the faithful’s understanding has its clear beginnings in the early Church. For example, Cyprian of Carthage, writing about 256, put the question this way, "Would the heretics dare to come to the very seat of Peter whence apostolic faith is derived and whither no errors can come?" (Letters 59 [55], 14). In the fifth century, Augustine succinctly captured the ancient attitude when he remarked, "Rome has spoken; the case is concluded" (Sermons 131, 10)."]

I'd be interested, KC, if you told me what commuinion rules bother you and why Sunday sabbath bothers you, considering Catholic masses are held on Saturdays as well, AND during the weekdays?

mynameiskc

08-17-2004, 05:59 PM

That's fine KC, if you disagree with something, I don't care, you are intelligent enough and respectfull enough of a person to say so. You don't have this blind hatred, so I have no problem.

The problem with papal infallibility is most people, even Catholics, for them; it's hard to understand. Most people think it means the pope is perfect. That's not what it means. (I am not saying you don't know what it means, but just posting this for everyone else.) The basic premise is from this verse in the bible, in which Jesus instructed the apostoles (bishops): "He who hears you hears me" (Luke 10:16), and "Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven" (Matt. 18:18). Another one is Luke 22:32--"I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail." It basically means, as I understand it as best I can, we beleive the Holy Spirit is guiding the Pope's decisions in the church, and that they will not fall away from the teachings of Christ.

This is a pretty good, simple understanding of it from Catholic writer Karl Keating:
["Christ instructed the Church to preach everything he taught (Matt. 28:19–20) and promised the protection of the Holy Spirit to "guide you into all the truth" (John 16:13). That mandate and that promise guarantee the Church will never fall away from his teachings (Matt. 16:18, 1 Tim. 3:15), even if individual Catholics might.
As Christians began to more clearly understand the teaching authority of the Church and of the primacy of the pope, they developed a clearer understanding of the pope’s infallibility. This development of the faithful’s understanding has its clear beginnings in the early Church. For example, Cyprian of Carthage, writing about 256, put the question this way, "Would the heretics dare to come to the very seat of Peter whence apostolic faith is derived and whither no errors can come?" (Letters 59 [55], 14). In the fifth century, Augustine succinctly captured the ancient attitude when he remarked, "Rome has spoken; the case is concluded" (Sermons 131, 10)."]

I'd be interested, KC, if you told me what commuinion rules bother you and why Sunday sabbath bothers you, considering Catholic masses are held on Saturdays as well, AND during the weekdays?

well, in my understanding, anyone who is a baptised christian is able to receive communion. i like the way the sda's did communion. it was basically a supper complete witht he foot washing, and everyone received communion. i think that makes more sense.

sunday is called the sabbath. why? because the pope said so. if christ was celebrating the sabbath on saturday, that's good enough for me.

as for papal infallibility, honestly, can you really believe that the popes of the past have even listened to the holy spirit? i rather like this current one, aside from a few decisions. at least he seems to try to listen to god.

SageDreamer

08-17-2004, 06:04 PM

My experience may not be typical, but I've met my share of Christians who are bashers themselves. Much of the world has a live-and-let-live attitude toward matters of religion and spirituality, and there are a significant number of Christians (at least a very visible minority) who don't see it this way.

I'm not talking about all or most Christians, but there are some very high-profile people who seem to want everyone in the world to believe as they do and are very pushy about it. There are also people who at least claim to be Christians who are very active in politics who want the government to reflect their anti-abortion and anti-gay people positions. If these people were more into their own spiritual growth than pushing these positions on everyone else, there would almost certainly be less "Christian-bashing."

Jozak

08-17-2004, 09:55 PM

well, in my understanding, anyone who is a baptised christian is able to receive communion. i like the way the sda's did communion. it was basically a supper complete witht he foot washing, and everyone received communion. i think that makes more sense.
The problem is though Protestants and Catholics take communion for different reasons, times, etc. We take communion every mass, and beleive in the real presence of Christ's body and blood. Protestants generally bleieve it to be a symbol of his grace, so why would I take something I don't beleive? I would never take non-catholic commuion, for my own beliefs and out of respect for the other people's church.

sunday is called the sabbath. why? because the pope said so. if christ was celebrating the sabbath on saturday, that's good enough for me.
I forgot why it was changed, or who did it, but most Christians use Sunday as well. Catholics use Saturday Sabbath as well, so there really is no problem I can see.

seamonster66

08-17-2004, 10:04 PM

Quote: We take communion every mass, and beleive in the real presence of Christ's body and blood

Its a cracker, you must be delusional.

mynameiskc

08-17-2004, 10:23 PM

i have no problem with people taking communion every mass. what i don't believe is making people jump through hoops to get it.

i read a catechism (sp?) once. on the question as to why the sabbath was changed to sunday, the answer was basically "because the pope said so."

now, if a day has been set aside by god to be the holy day of rest, how does the pope have the ability to change that? this day has been set aside for all god's children to rest and think on him. chaning the day of rest means changing that people who should be observing god's day are doing their housework, stopping by mass, then going about other business. it kinda takes the crux out of the day. also, it's very difficult for people who wish to observe teh true sabbath to observe that day of rest because the rest of the world has been duped into accepting sunday as a sabbath, instead of saturday.

FreakyJoeMan

08-18-2004, 01:33 AM

"I often wonder what the atheists think of the laws that are
going to be passed against those who cannot tolerate the
religious beliefs of others,and what are they going to do when
they are forced to become part of the religious system when all religions are united together?
Most will no doubt conform. Have you known many atheists
who will die for what they claim they believe?
Atheists love sin,and they know it. No secret there,duh!"

This is a quote from "dna"

I frankly was offended by this, and not much offends me.

mynameiskc

08-18-2004, 02:16 AM

what about it offended you? in particular, i mean, what is your objection to the quote. i know what mine would be but wouldn't think to speak for an atheist any more than i would for a buddhist or hindu.

Jozak

08-18-2004, 07:21 AM

Quote: We take communion every mass, and beleive in the real presence of Christ's body and blood

Its a cracker, you must be delusional.It's not a cracker once the priest blesses it and becomes the body of Christ. To you, obviously a non-Catholic, it is a cracker, and it is until the process of transubstantiation comes into play, it is. Again, this is probably one of the biggest dividers among Catholics/Protestants that is alive to this day. The other one, quite frankly, is Mary.

seamonster66

08-18-2004, 04:46 PM

quote:It's not a cracker once the priest blesses it and becomes the body of Christ.

So once a person who may or may not molest children, but has at least gone to seminary school says a few words a cracker, flour and a few other things, becomes the body of a man whos been dead for at least 2,000 years.......and you think that you are NOT part of cult?!

bandit28

08-18-2004, 07:13 PM

seamonster66, is it possable for you to grow up? You my friend are old news. Nothing you have or want to say is new. Everyone has heard it already. It is clear from your posts that you are not a believer in Christ. You are not a foolower of His teachings. Guess what...we are. Get over yourself and quit trying to impress your other non believe friends that come into this forum looking for a laugh or attempting to persuade a believer into something else. I recomend you just shut up and allow your brain to catch up to your age, perhaps then your maturity level can develope to that of at least a 13 yr old and compassion and understanding will take over. Until then, keep your rude remarks and degrading theories to yourself.

By the way, I am not Catholic nor do I support that religion(or any religion for that matter). I am however a Christian. Perhaps God will judge me on this day for not turning the other cheek. His will be done, and so am I.

LuciferSam

08-18-2004, 07:28 PM

By the way, I am not Catholic nor do I support that religion(or any religion for that matter). I am however a Christian. Perhaps God will judge me on this day for not turning the other cheek. His will be done, and so am I.
Uh... call me a nitpicker, but Christianity is a religion dude.:H

seamonster66

08-18-2004, 07:40 PM

Everything I say , i believe, and since this is a thread against christianity, and I am anti-christian, it seems I have found the right place to state these opinions.

you exhibit no characteristics of a true christian yet you claim to be one, you don't follow his teachings either.

I am trying to impress no one, i just think you are a moron and love fucking with you.

I will keep nothing to myself, if you can't handle it then ignore me like the weak minded fool you are.

so in short, you shut up, these forums are for posting opinions.

Lucifer sam is right, christianity is a religion and a cult.

Bacchus

08-18-2004, 08:50 PM

seamonster66

08-18-2004, 08:54 PM

Warrior has already been banned for spouting neo nazi beliefs.............I believe people should be able to say what they want,non-violently, but he did mention picking fights with minorities.

mynameiskc

08-18-2004, 09:48 PM

all religions are cults in the basic sense of the word. in the modern sense, most aren't.

Cosmic Butterfly

08-19-2004, 01:31 AM

We are all Jesus we are all one! It is when we start to believe that God is seperate from us and we start pointing fingers. My problem with the Christians and the bible is that the message is scrambled. A bunch of rich aristocrats, and wanna be saints wrote the bible. They messed with the message of Jesus and used it to their advantage. It was a meaning of control, a certain way of governing.

Jesus is a buddha, we are all buddhas. All those Gods mentioned earlier (Horus, Mithra, etc) are real. It was not a lie. It is only a lie when you let your ego tell you otherwise. It is a lie that Christians call other people in places like South America heathens and without God. They felt the magical feeling of divinity in their heart and soul too. They felt the unspeakable, and immense connective presence. Wether it was ancient tribes consuming peyote, monks in some remote temple, Sufi's, Jews, Yogi's in a cave....God was with them.

Realization of our divine nature has been given to us in different messages but it all the same. ALL ONE ALL GOD "I AM" GOD WAS WITH THEM BECAUSE WE ARE GOD AND GOD IS EVERYWHERE.
Things start to get ugly when we point the finger. When we say you are wrong and my(ego) is right. It is just insanity or even the delusion of dark force(Devil, Shaitan, Satan).

Jesus said " The Kingdom (of Heaven) is inside you and it is outside you"

"Blessed are the Pure in Heart, for they shall see GOD.

"Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven

"Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so men persecuted the prophets who were before you!
Matthew 5

"LOVE ONE ANOTHER!"

John 15:12

mynameiskc

08-19-2004, 02:16 AM

how do we know you're right? how do you know we're wrong?

LuciferSam

08-19-2004, 07:21 AM

all religions are cults in the basic sense of the word. in the modern sense, most aren't.
To quote Tom Wolfe - "a cult is a religion with no political power."

Jozak

08-19-2004, 08:42 AM

So once a person who may or may not molest children,
but has at least gone to seminary school says a few words a cracker, flour and a few other things, becomes the body of a man whos been dead for at least 2,000 years.......and you think that you are NOT part of cult?!The percentage of priests who are child molesters is very small, and there are just as many pedophiles in other proffessions, they are everywhere unfortunently. You are getting off topic, are we talking about transubstnatiation or are talking about pedophilia? I am trying to be respectful and explain to you what catholics beleive, but everyone can plainly see you are not interested in that, only in being a bigot against a religion. That is your mindset, it is ignorant, immature, and uneducated, but no matter how in depth i go you wont care or even keep an open mind. You are no better than Warrior either--dont throw stones in glass houses, seamonster.

bandit28

08-19-2004, 09:17 AM

you exhibit no characteristics of a true christian yet you claim to be one, you don't follow his teachings either.
Explain yourself. That's funny you would say I don't follow His teachings, yet I do.
I am trying to impress no one, i just think you are a moron and love fucking with you.

I will keep nothing to myself, if you can't handle it then ignore me like the weak minded fool you are.

so in short, you shut up, these forums are for posting opinions.
Yay for more imaturity.

We attack because no other system of beliefs has wrought so much suffering on to mankind.
Actualy, the muslim religion has killed far more people in it's strugle to convert the world. Get your facts straight please.

Warrior has already been banned for spouting neo nazi beliefs.............I believe people should be able to say what they want,non-violently, but he did mention picking fights with minorities. I don't see how this has anything to do with the current topic, please quit trying to change the thread, that is banable you know.

And now for the fun:
We are all Jesus we are all one! It is when we start to believe that God is seperate from us and we start pointing fingers. My problem with the Christians and the bible is that the message is scrambled. A bunch of rich aristocrats, and wanna be saints wrote the bible. They messed with the message of Jesus and used it to their advantage. It was a meaning of control, a certain way of governing.
Throughout this forum you will find several threads that proove your theory wrong. However, because I am a closed minded Christian, please show your proof to your claims. Secondly, you attempt to discredit The Bible, then later in your post, you quote scripture. Seriously, you just destroyed your entire post. Oh yeah, and God clearly stated that there would be no other gods before Him. Not only did this include money and like things, but also these gods you mention(Horus, Mithra, etc). Make up your mind on further posts please, you can't use parts of The Bible and throw the rest away. You are either for God or against Him, not in the middle.

Mui

08-19-2004, 09:54 AM

Hahahahahaha hahaha wow

that is some funny shit right there.

loveflower

08-19-2004, 09:58 AM

roly

08-21-2004, 10:51 PM

Explain yourself. That's funny you would say I don't follow His teachings, yet I do.
Yay for more imaturity.

Actualy, the muslim religion has killed far more people in it's strugle to convert the world. Get your facts straight please.

I don't see how this has anything to do with the current topic, please quit trying to change the thread, that is banable you know.

And now for the fun:
Throughout this forum you will find several threads that proove your theory wrong. However, because I am a closed minded Christian, please show your proof to your claims. Secondly, you attempt to discredit The Bible, then later in your post, you quote scripture. Seriously, you just destroyed your entire post. Oh yeah, and God clearly stated that there would be no other gods before Him. Not only did this include money and like things, but also these gods you mention(Horus, Mithra, etc). Make up your mind on further posts please, you can't use parts of The Bible and throw the rest away. You are either for God or against Him, not in the middle.

Guys, its all about Jesus , not petty arguements....no one can say what the other believes is wrong...it should be personal faith should...

thespeez

08-26-2004, 07:20 AM

so what? i'm a sinner. i like women, i like men, i think lustful thoughts constantly. get over it. ;)
Well, we're ALL sinners. Be mindful, though, that the term lust meant something totally different than what it means today. When you think of that term are you meaning that you desire to steal away another's mate, or are you saying that you feel the desire to share your body with another? The former is what Jesus in the sermon on the mount was referring to, NOT the latter.
Also, Sexual immorality in the bible had little to do with voluntary sexual relations outside of an 'approved' institution, but was a reference to sexual torture, rape, deceit and other deplorable actions. As I've stated before, we must understand what the origional intent of scripture was and not try not to take things out of context. Try understanding all of the logistics that were in place at the time.

seamonster66

08-27-2004, 12:09 AM

JesusDiedForU

08-27-2004, 02:26 AM

Yay for believing in outdated and deploreable propaganda.

-What is your belief system based on?? Mine is based on fact. Where do you think people came from??

Showtime/Redneck-Bud

08-27-2004, 02:39 AM

The World of Dan

08-27-2004, 02:58 AM

I'm happy to admit that I don't like christanity. I don't have any problems with any individual christans (some of my very good friends are christan), and I have respect for christanity as a religion... But I don't like it.

Why?

Well, this is very much a generalisation (and again aimed at the church as a whole, not individuals), but I don't like the way that they try and force their faith onto other people. It's something that has been going on for years, and I don't think it's fair.

I'm happy for you to believe what you believe - if jesus died for you, i'm happy... but he didn't die for me, I don't even believe in him, and I'm happy with that...

I do have many many other rants against christanity, but I'm going to keep them to myself as it's not my intention to upset anyone here. And like I said, I've got a few christan friends... I just don't like the church.

(I've also got a thing against 'religion' on the whole - not against 'faith', just religion - but that's for another time).

Jozak

08-27-2004, 03:16 AM

Quote: That is your mindset, it is ignorant, immature, and uneducated, but no matter how in depth i go you wont care or even keep an open mind.

I am better than you and warrior, everything about me is way superior, you are wrong, what you believe in is criminal and should be abolished from the world

Quote: Yay for more imaturity.

Yay for believing in outdated and deploreable propaganda.

PS...you primitive kids are so easy to rileHow stupid are you? Unlike warrior, I am not a fundementalist, racist piece of shit. And I stand by my statement I said earlier. You come on here, spout off bullshit, people call you on it, and you try to worm your way out. Either support your assertions and statements like an intelligent human being or shut up, becasue frankly no one here cares to hear some uneducated bigot. If by superior you mean dumb, then yes, you are.

JesusDiedForU

08-27-2004, 03:20 AM

Showtime/Redneck-Bud,

"if i go through life worrying about where we came from, why were here, and where we are gonna go when we die... i'm not gonna get anything impo'tant done... i've got books and movies and comics to write, and i'm not gonna get any of it done by worryin' about stupid stuff like that... so... that's all i have to say... buh-bye and peace, man"

-Prove there is no hell because if you are right than we are both ok... but if you are wrong I am still ok but you are trouble.

Even if there is a slight chance there is a hell that is something to worry about... Hell is not stupid it is scary and you have a chance to avoid it.

Showtime/Redneck-Bud

08-27-2004, 03:41 AM

JesusDiedForU,

1. Just call me Showtime, please...
2. I don't care enough to prove it...
3. Speaking of telling me to prove it, don't tell me what to do...
4. Jesus said that if you are good to yer fellow man, you will go to heaven when you die (well, his version was longer, but you get the gist), knowing that, if there is a hell i'm not worried...
5. Let me reitterate (or however it's spelled): If i spend my time worrying about all of this doom and gloom bullshit (sorry, that's the way i feel about it), i'm never gonna get off my ass, write my book, draw my comics, form my band, win the heart of the woman i love, and all sorts of other stuff i wanna accomplish before i turn 22!!
6. NO ONE'S (not even mine) beliefs are "based on fact"... it all has to do with what you personally believe... calling yer beliefs or views "facts" or (like my father does) "the voice of reason" is one of the most pompous, arrogant things to say... buh-bye and peace, man

JesusDiedForU

08-27-2004, 03:47 AM

The World of Dan

Well, this is very much a generalisation (and again aimed at the church as a whole, not individuals), but I don't like the way that they try and force their faith onto other people. It's something that has been going on for years, and I don't think it's fair.

-Jesus said tell not force others about him

Mark 16:15 - And he said to them, Go into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
The problem is Christians say to a person they should use gasoline in their car and the person says "you are to narrow" "don't force me into your thinking" "I'd rather use water" But gasoline is the ONLY WAY your car will run.

I'm happy for you to believe what you believe - if jesus died for you, i'm happy... but he didn't die for me, I don't even believe in him, and I'm happy with that...

-"Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (romans 10:13)

Why don't you believe in Jesus?

I do have many many other rants against christanity, but I'm going to keep them to myself as it's not my intention to upset anyone here. And like I said, I've got a few christan friends... I just don't like the church.

-A person is not saved from their sins by going to church or doing good deeds. A person is only saved by accepting and following Jesus...This concept is so hard for people to grasp.

The World of Dan

08-27-2004, 03:47 AM

6. NO ONE'S (not even mine) beliefs are "based on fact"... it all has to do with what you personally believe... calling yer beliefs or views "facts" or (like my father does) "the voice of reason" is one of the most pompous, arrogant things to say... buh-bye and peace, manhere here.. well said, I agree with you 100%

The World of Dan

08-27-2004, 03:50 AM

JesusDiedForU, I'm not going to even start on you. In the end I'm just going to get pissed off and do something silly like insult you, so I'm not even going to start.

I am going to ask you this question tho... I don't want the answer, I don't even care what the answer is, I just want you to think about it...

What diffrence does it make to you what I believe?

The World of Dan

08-27-2004, 03:54 AM

Oh, one thing tho, mr jesus fan... I want you to read this: http://hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26513

JesusDiedForU

08-27-2004, 04:01 AM

Showtime,

1. Just call me Showtime, please...
2. I don't care enough to prove it...
3. Speaking of telling me to prove it, don't tell me what to do...
4. Jesus said that if you are good to yer fellow man, you will go to heaven when you die (well, his version was longer, but you get the gist), knowing that, if there is a hell i'm not worried...
5. Let me reitterate (or however it's spelled): If i spend my time worrying about all of this doom and gloom bullshit (sorry, that's the way i feel about it), i'm never gonna get off my ass, write my book, draw my comics, form my band, win the heart of the woman i love, and all sorts of other stuff i wanna accomplish before i turn 22!!

-If you accept Jesus you can laugh past the black herse. Right now you close your eyes and pretend like your immortal. I don't worry either but atleast I acknwoledge there is one....I took the time to study.... You have to be willing to seek-which most people are not.

6. NO ONE'S (not even mine) beliefs are "based on fact"... it all has to do with what you personally believe... calling yer beliefs or views "facts" or (like my father does) "the voice of reason" is one of the most pompous, arrogant things to say... buh-bye and peace, man

-The proof of the Bible is what seperates Christianity from all the rest of the religions. And I am sure you nothing about the proofs of the Bible. Believing that there is no hell based off no facts is Blind Faith.

JesusDiedForU

08-27-2004, 04:19 AM

What diffrence does it make to you what I believe?
I know you said you did not want the answer but I think it would help people understand alot better if I did. I'll make it general though. It would be selfish of me to let someone to die of a disease, when I knew the cure. Or it would be selfish of me let someone drowned as I am standing right off shore.

I have a free gift to share to everyone and it would be selfish of me to share it with no one. Though it is up to that person I share it with to accept or reject that free gift-the gift of salvation.

again like Jesus said...

Mark 16:15 - And he said to them, Go into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Showtime/Redneck-Bud

08-27-2004, 04:25 AM

Jesus-Man,

1. I don't believe I'm immortal, I just wanna get the stuff that matters t' me accomplished before i turn 22 (i kinda made a pact wif myself)
2. Just 'cuz somethings in a book, doesn't make it fact...
3. It's not that i have "blind faith", it's that i have... NO faith...
4. Don'cha think $10 is too much for a pack of chicken strips!? I mean, i loooves my chicken strips, but FrankZappa-damn and Jesus Christopher! that's too much for anything food-related if you ask me!
5. You did it again... yer belief's are not facts, they are yer beliefs... my beliefs aren't facts, they are my beliefs... Pat Robertson's beleifs are not facts, they are... well, insane actually, but he doesn't count!
6. In closing, here is one of my favorite quotes:

"A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned out for what he knows." - Mark Twain

buh-bye and peace, man...

The World of Dan

08-27-2004, 04:35 AM

I know you said you did not want the answer but I think it would help people understand alot better if I did. I'll make it general though. It would be selfish of me to let someone to die of a disease, when I knew the cure. Or it would be selfish of me let someone drowned as I am standing right off shore.

I have a free gift to share to everyone and it would be selfish of me to share it with no one. Though it is up to that person I share it with to accept or reject that free gift-the gift of salvation.

again like Jesus said...

Mark 16:15 - And he said to them, Go into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Why not, rather than spend all your time quoting scriptures at people, live your life by example, and show people the good life rather than trying to force them to accept your views? I think you would have a much better success rate.

Was it not Tertullian, one of the church fathers, who converted to christanity after attending the gladiatorial games and watching Christians being thrown to the lions, choosing death over renouncing their faith.

JesusDiedForU

08-27-2004, 04:59 AM

5. You did it again... yer belief's are not facts, they are yer beliefs... my beliefs aren't facts, they are my beliefs... Pat Robertson's beleifs are not facts, they are... well, insane actually, but he doesn't count!

I would like to respond to the other ones.... but I think #5 is the most important right now.

IS THERE A GOD?
-yes
HOW DO YOU KNOW THERE IS A GOD?
-Because the Bible says
HOW DO YOU KNOW THE BIBLE IS TRUE?
-It was inspired by God
HOW DO YOU KNOW THE BIBLE WAS INSPIRED BY GOD?
-Prophetic, Archaeologic, and Scientific proof aka Something you probably never looked into because you refuse to seek the truth

JesusDiedForU

08-27-2004, 05:06 AM

Why not, rather than spend all your time quoting scriptures at people, live your life by example, and show people the good life rather than trying to force them to accept your views? I think you would have a much better success rate.
I try to live by the example of Christ and the real good life is through Jesus Christ. I show this through what Jesus and the Bible says. "Force people" ...um am I holding a gun to your head??? I can tell you about Christ over and over and you can deny him till you die. No one can make you believe. You make the choice. But they can lead you to believe.

Showtime/Redneck-Bud

08-27-2004, 05:06 AM

JesusFriedForU2,

It's NOT that i "refuse to seek the 'truth'"... i just don't care for it... it honestly doesn't seem all that impo'tant to me... as long as I'm playin' my guitar, makin' people laugh, and makin' love to the woman I love, I'm fine with my life...

Now... on to more impo'tant issues...

I personally think... that chicken strips should cost about $4.99... i think that is more than enough for something as wondeful and delish as chicken strips... what do you think...?

The World of Dan

08-27-2004, 05:09 AM

I would like to respond to the other ones.... but I think #5 is the most important right now.

IS THERE A GOD?
-yes
HOW DO YOU KNOW THERE IS A GOD?
-Because the Bible says
HOW DO YOU KNOW THE BIBLE IS TRUE?
-It was inspired by GodIgnorance at it's finest, its the paradox that answers itself. The fiction goes around in their minds and proves itself

HOW DO YOU KNOW THE BIBLE WAS INSPIRED BY GOD?
-Prophetic, Archaeologic, and Scientific proof aka Something you probably never looked into because you refuse to seek the truthHow do you know that any of this is true? After all, this is the word of humans, and humans can lie.

Genesis

08-27-2004, 08:28 AM

As regards my faith I refuse to be held accountable for the acts of extremists who claim they act in the name of god. For in truth, they are doing no good. And that is fact. standing on roadsides screaming at innocent women telling them they are wrong when in fact those who scream are wrong for judging in the first place. denying people the right to marriage outside of the house of god because it's not "natural". who are these people to determine what is natural in the eyes of god? he created all creatures alike...let him be the judge of who is "wrong" and who is "right" and i guarantee it would be those who were decent people all their lives and strove to live free of ignorance.

To act upon the "teachings" of god is to be a decent person. Loving, self-sacrificing and true to his will and testament. I believe that to truly be a Christian you strive to please god by being a good person. I mean truly good. Not nice…because god like his children can see a fool and a liar for what they are. And what we do to the least of his brothers we do to him. Therefore by serving god, we are in fact serving you.

To be decent and true to him, we must also be decent and true to our brothers and sisters alike. Whether they are of different race, or religion or sexual preference.

I believe these basic human principals. Treat others, as you would like to be treated. Judge not lest ye be judged etc. and for the majority, we as people, as non-believers and believers alike, we as people have achieved this.

But as Christians, we strive to be decent that is what we do and have tried to do for many years. And it is silly to be held accountable for those who have jaded you as non-believers.

But please don’t think I speak with rancour.

But I suggest that if anyone’s doubt and disdain derives from the acts of people…let it lie with the people not with the scapegoat they attach their acts to.

We as people behave without decency or care for our fellow man.

Influence merely comes from the want of influence and comfort of excuses.

I know the acts of few can jade you from the acts as many but we are not all to be tarnished with the same brush.

i am a christian but i do not agree with hating homosexuals or blacks [i don't know if that term is politically correct it has raised some eyebrows in the past] or even those of another faith. i believe in respect for our fellow man and i believe that those who act in hate cannot be acting out the will of god because i do not believe him to be a being of hate. and i know that sounds foolish as it is apparently stated in the bible itself that homosexuals are a sin but like a lot of christians i do not accept that as truth but mere mishandeling of truth by people.

written down it does sound silly to be honest:& and might make me sound like a very bad christian because my only cold feelings would lie with those who think they have the right to judge a belief and others do not.

i promise we're not all nut jobs :) some of us actually don't like hatred and prejudice and try ourr best to abolish it within us and our surroundings.

lol it does seem like a bit of a paradox...i think most would simply answer...i know the bible is true to"me" because i "believe" it to be true. but thats just me

now ill go back n read the rest of the posts i onlygot to read about three pages so sorry if this is a bit out of sync with the rest of everyones posts.

dia libh go léir.

bandit28

08-27-2004, 09:52 AM

Well mr. Jesus Hater. I found your writing, well, stupid. If it is your work I would just not admit to it if I were you. First off, there were witnesses to Jesus being alive and performing miracles. No different than someone recording down on paper what hapened in The Civil War. You can believe it or not, noone will force it on you. You claim we as Christians force our faith and our God on you. Well, as mentioned before I do not see anyone putting a gun to your head and making you choose. As a matter of fact, did anyone force you into this thread and force you to complain about something you don't even understand? That's right, I said you don't even understand Christianity. Case in point:4. Jesus said that if you are good to yer fellow man, you will go to heaven when you die (well, his version was longer, but you get the gist), knowing that, if there is a hell i'm not worried...
No, He never said that. You can be good all you want, it wont get you inot Heaven. Perhaps if you are going to come in here and make fun of things, you might want to pick up a Bible and educate yourself on it.
2. I don't care enough to prove it...
Then why are you here? Why are you still replying? It seems to me you have made your choice, so why stick around? Perhaps you are just seeking attention.

6. NO ONE'S (not even mine) beliefs are "based on fact"... it all has to do with what you personally believe... calling yer beliefs or views "facts" or (like my father does) "the voice of reason" is one of the most pompous, arrogant things to say...
You are right there, my beliefs are not based on facts. My beliefs are based on faith. However, my faith is strengthend by facts and evidence that can not be refuted. Again, this would be a good time for you to educate yourself on Biblical history.

Thanks for you time.
God - 1
Satan - 0

campbell34

08-27-2004, 10:16 AM

Well mr. Jesus Hater. I found your writing, well, stupid. If it is your work I would just not admit to it if I were you. First off, there were witnesses to Jesus being alive and performing miracles. No different than someone recording down on paper what hapened in The Civil War. You can believe it or not, noone will force it on you. You claim we as Christians force our faith and our God on you. Well, as mentioned before I do not see anyone putting a gun to your head and making you choose. As a matter of fact, did anyone force you into this thread and force you to complain about something you don't even understand? That's right, I said you don't even understand Christianity. Case in point:No, He never said that. You can be good all you want, it wont get you inot Heaven. Perhaps if you are going to come in here and make fun of things, you might want to pick up a Bible and educate yourself on it.
Then why are you here? Why are you still replying? It seems to me you have made your choice, so why stick around? Perhaps you are just seeking attention.

.

You are right there, my beliefs are not based on facts. My beliefs are based on faith. However, my faith is strengthend by facts and evidence that can not be refuted. Again, this would be a good time for you to educate yourself on Biblical history.

Thanks for you time.
God - 1
Satan - 0
Great job, and I to wish some of these people took the time to read the bible before that responded to it.

campbell34

08-27-2004, 10:49 AM

"Where do you think people came from!?"

Well... i don't know about everyone else... but i was created by my mom and dad fucking... and they were created by their parents fucking... and so on and so on... as for everything before that... who cares? if i go through life worrying about where we came from, why were here, and where we are gonna go when we die... i'm not gonna get anything impo'tant done... i've got books and movies and comics to write, and i'm not gonna get any of it done by worryin' about stupid stuff like that... so... that's all i have to say... buh-bye and peace, man...
Yes, who would seek God in one's life when you can center your life on movies and comics. Those are really important things that will last for all eternity. The day will come when many will stand before God and He will tell them, "Depart from me I never knew you." So many, will be unprepared.
What a terrible day of horror it will be, for those who do not know God.

Showtime/Redneck-Bud

08-27-2004, 05:06 PM

Bandit-bo-fandit,

1. I am not a "Jesus-hater", i happen to have a lot of respect for him and plan on writing a comic book about him... however, i don't think he was the son of god nor did he ever say he was
2. It is slightly different than recording the civil war... Jesus was 2000 years ago, the civil war was 2 century's ago...
3. True, I do believe a lot Christians force their faith... but I didn't say any of that here... I said JesusDiedForU was forcing his faith... my comments were amed at an individual...
4. I was raised Christian... I know everything it's about...
5. "Why am I still replying?" Because I don't think Jesus-Freak has fully grasped what I meant the first time i replied... plus I looove a good debate...
6. "God-1 Satan-0"... where the hell did that come from? if i don't believe in god how can i be in league with Satan? and yer calling me "uneducated"...

campbell'schoice,

I'm sorry if dreams piss you off so much... you see after I dropped out of Christianity I became a Buddhist... now, Buddhism is the search for inner-peace... MY inner-peace told me "I would never be happy until I freed my self of all religion, stopped thinking about death, and tried to accomplish all my dreams"... so for me, that will be heaven...

and maybe you didn't read any of my other posts, but when you insulted me for cherishing my dreams, you insulted my feelings for the woman I love... say whatever the fuck you want about my "faith", political views, or taste in music... but don't step on my feelings for her... got that?!

*ahem* buh-bye and peace, man...

Kharakov

08-27-2004, 05:21 PM

I'm sorry if dreams piss you off so much... you see after I dropped out of Christianity I became a Buddhist... now, Buddhism is the search for inner-peace... MY inner-peace told me "I would never be happy until I freed my self of all religion, stopped think about death, and tried to accomplish all my dreams"... so for me, that will be heaven.
Free yourself from buddhism.

Deny what you see in the world around you (death). In other words, lie to yourself.

What are your dreams?

Showtime/Redneck-Bud

08-27-2004, 05:31 PM

Kharakov-esque,

1. Not just Buddhism, but all religion...
2. I'm not lying to myself... i know damn good and well I'm gonna die one day... i just feel if i think about it too much i won't ever get anything done...
3. My dreams are becoming a writer/film-maker/comic-writer/political humorists and winning the heart of the woman I love...
4. How do you feel... about the chicken strips issue? I think $10 is way too much, $4.99 would be much more suitable, don'cha think?

Brocktoon

08-27-2004, 05:38 PM

Anyone who was practicing real Christianity (Meaning.. that which Christ taught) would know that Jesus defeated, overturned and dismissed 'All Religion'.

Religion can now be put away. Christ fulfilled Religion.

Why do Buddhists keep dropping in to 'explain' that they have found something 'Superior' to Religion - then accuse Jesus of teaching religion (and denying Jesus overcame Religion)?

To all the Buddhists in here who want to remind us the they have 'Disavowed Religion" then please sit down, take a number and while you waiting to repeat 'Your' belief, you can meditate on the fact that Jesus WAS AHEAD OF YOU BY AT LEAST 2000 YEARS.

Kharakov

08-27-2004, 05:53 PM

Kharakov-esque,

1. Not just Buddhism, but all religion...
I see the progression.

2. I'm not lying to myself... i know damn good and well I'm gonna die one day... i just feel if i think about it too much i won't ever get anything done...
I see, you don't want to dwell on it. Truly, doing anything "too much" eliminates progress in the other things you do not do :).

3. My dreams are becoming a writer/film-maker/comic-writer/political humorists and winning the heart of the woman I love...
Good for you.
4. How do you feel... about the chicken strips issue? I think $10 is way too much, $4.99 would be much more suitable, don'cha think? I have not seen chicken strips for $10, except in those sit down eat restaraunts, which I got to when someone takes me out. You can get a 5 piece at Wendy's for $.99 (not quite the chicken strip basket) although I recommend the Jr. Bacon Cheeseburger for $.99. I think the chicken strip basket at Dairy Queen is $4.99, although it might be more now. It comes with fries, toast, chicken strips (of course), and country gravy. Good stuff.

But I digress... Yeah, $10.00 is a bit high for chicken strips, however, i feel that 7.99 is not a bad price if you are in a mid to upper class restaurant. Denny's should offer a chicken strip meal for 6.99, just because they are awesome, and everyone else can do whatever they want. Not that I don't care about other restaurants, it's just that Denny's is soooo awesome. If I had a hero that was a restaurant, it would be Denny's, although Wendy's is right up there. Ok, maybe I love all restaraunts, but in different ways.

Showtime/Redneck-Bud

08-27-2004, 05:53 PM

Brocktoon,

I didn't say "I had found something better"... what I've found works best for me and probly no-one else...

when i "found my answer", i didn't go "Aww sweet! Now i'm better than all the Christians and Muslims! My way is the best and everyone should know of it! I AM BETTER THAN RELIGION!!"... i simply said, "Wooowww... now maybe I can finally be happy"

I don't care what the other Buddhists say, what I found was never meant to be "superior to religion"... it's just the life-style that works best for me... buh-bye and peace, man...

Showtime/Redneck-Bud

08-27-2004, 05:59 PM

Well actually, Kharakov, i was talking about store-bought chicken strips... specifically Tyson chicken strips (my preferred brand) which cost $9.99... i think a more suitable price would be $4.99...

And by the way... I looove Wendy's Jr. Bacon Cheeseburgers! I usually order 3 of 'em (w/ ketchup and mayo only) and a baked potatoe with bacon and cheese... but no drink... i never get drinks at fast food joints... don't like ice meltin' in my soda... that's my typical meal at Wendy's!

seamonster66

08-27-2004, 06:24 PM

quote: What is your belief system based on?? Mine is based on fact. Where do you think people came from??

well of course the lord god created me, and then I pulled a rib out of my chest, drew a woman, and she magically appeared!!!!!!!!!

there are no facts, you just blindly believe what you want to, and what you were taught by your parents.

seamonster66

08-27-2004, 06:29 PM

quote: How stupid are you? Unlike warrior, I am not a fundementalist, racist piece of shit. And I stand by my statement I said earlier. You come on here, spout off bullshit, people call you on it, and you try to worm your way out. Either support your assertions and statements like an intelligent human being or shut up, becasue frankly no one here cares to hear some uneducated bigot. If by superior you mean dumb, then yes, you are.

I'm basically kicking the shit out of you using only words....i say whatever I want, some things meant only as an obvious joke and you get So riled up about it that you stop behaving like the Christian you think you are.

I'm not trying to "worm my way" out of anything, i think Christianity is a lame religion, it lteaches some worthy morals, but on the whole its effect has been negative. I'm quite educated, way more so than some kid who is essentially brainwashed by a cult, a big cult, but a vult none the less... a group that gets you to confess your sins to a man who is allegedly "closer to god" than you, a cult who has convinced you that a cracker (flour etc.) magically contains the flesh and blood of a man who may or may not have lived at some point in time.

I am no christian, but if you think you are one, then learn to turn the other cheek.

roly

08-27-2004, 07:15 PM

seamonster66

08-27-2004, 07:24 PM

Jozak has told me he believes in that.....what else is misguided?

tran·sub·stan·ti·a·tion http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/JPG/pron.jpg (https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fsearch%3 Fq%3Dtransubstantiation%26r%3D2) ( P ) Pronunciation Key (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html) (trhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/abreve.gifnhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/lprime.gifshttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gifb-sthttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/abreve.gifnhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/lprime.gifshhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/emacr.gif-http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/amacr.gifhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gifshhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gifn)
n.

Conversion of one substance into another.
In many Christian churches, the doctrine holding that the bread and wine of the Eucharist are transformed into the body and blood of Jesus, although their appearances remain the same.

MANY churches believe in it, not all

Jozak

08-27-2004, 08:17 PM

quote:

I'm basically kicking the shit out of you using only words....i say whatever I want, some things meant only as an obvious joke and you get So riled up about it that you stop behaving like the Christian you think you are.

I'm not trying to "worm my way" out of anything, i think Christianity is a lame religion, it lteaches some worthy morals, but on the whole its effect has been negative. I'm quite educated, way more so than some kid who is essentially brainwashed by a cult, a big cult, but a vult none the less... a group that gets you to confess your sins to a man who is allegedly "closer to god" than you, a cult who has convinced you that a cracker (flour etc.) magically contains the flesh and blood of a man who may or may not have lived at some point in time.

I am no christian, but if you think you are one, then learn to turn the other cheek.
How are you kicking the shit out of me? You are an idiot. Instead of debating and discussing things, you assert the stupidist comments and claim supremacy to those who prove you wrong. You educated....my ass. I am educated, I go to the University of Virginia, have you heard of it? I am just a very religious person. I don't bother people who are anything different. If you were truly educated then you would be able to A) Grasp simple concepts of church history or B) Realize Jesus was a real person. Weather you beleive in his teachings or not, he was a historical figure, who lived in an area called Palestine about 2000 years ago. If you are educated, you have done a piss poor job of showing it.

seamonster66

08-27-2004, 08:20 PM

and your arrogance goes directly against your professed religion....if you would like to learn about real Christianty, perhaps you should speak to Bree or someone else who actually takes the tenets to heart.

you "don't bother" with people who aren't religious!!! cas in point right there, a Christian is supposed to love and care about all humans......you are not a Christian, you are the fanatic follower of a cult.

University of Virginia, yea I've heard of it...so what?

Your football team mentality mixed with religion makes a hideous combination. Stop resorting to calling me uneducated and look how easily i am making you lose your composure.

Jozak

08-27-2004, 09:47 PM

That's not true at all. I only get defensive when people are spouting myths about my religion. I could care less what you beleive in dude. Balbus is a good friend of mine, he's atheist, Pointbreak is probably my best friend on this site and he is atheist. KC is another, she is not religious. I know Bree as well, she is an awesome person, but she does not go around saiying she superior to others and bashing other people's religion. I didn't realize you were trying to push by buttons to begin with, I thoguht you really didn't understand, but whatever, this is pointless, I'm not trying to have an online feud.

seamonster66

08-27-2004, 09:50 PM

Alright then, I am fine with whatever you believe in...I just fight against spiritual arrogance, which seems common around this forum.

JesusDiedForU

08-27-2004, 10:44 PM

there are no facts, you just blindly believe what you want to, and what you were taught by your parents.
-That is simply not true. There is so much proof that the Bible was inspired by God that it takes more faith not to believe in God. There are three types of proof that confirm the Bible is truly inspired:

Prophetic: The Bible predicts future events before they happen. Only God knows the future

Scientifc: Knowledge that was written in the Bible that had not even been discovered until hundreds of years later. Only God would know this knowledge

Archaeologic: Stories that were once thought as false are now considered to be true as archaeologist are finding artifects of these stories.

JesusDiedForU

08-27-2004, 11:07 PM

It's NOT that i "refuse to seek the 'truth'"... i just don't care for it... it honestly doesn't seem all that impo'tant to me...
-By not caring about the truth you refuse to seek it.

Genesis

08-28-2004, 01:31 AM

that;s not what he meant at all.

by "it" he means religion...christianity generally i think as the topic was about that.

but the fact is, it is belief ,and only truth to you.

he does not seek "that" truth because that truth is not his to search for or wield.therefore it is simple falacy to him. why then search for fallacy? im sure he does not care for that either as no human on this earth suffers it gladly.

he's not denying truth at all. he's merely adhereing to his own.

i don't know if i picked you up wrong showtime....if i have then i apologise for that. but i assume by it you meant religion.

jailmate

08-28-2004, 01:39 AM

duh, auh. du voist religion ever, on par wit Mohamadenizum, only
more lawless, vukin 4 Jazus. try Jainism, no harm 2 any livin being.

Jizus had short HAIR

Showtime/Redneck-Bud

08-28-2004, 02:15 AM

yeah that's pretty much what i meant, Genesis...

JesusWouldILieToYouByTheEurythmics,

What scientififc facts and future events are you talking about?

And, please, focus on the impo'tant issue... don'cha think chicken strips should only cost $4.99? i mean, am i the only one who would like to be able to afford chicken strips with only a five dollar bill and a couple of quarters in his pocket?

JesusDiedForU

08-28-2004, 06:51 AM

What scientififc facts and future events are you talking about?

"4. I was raised Christian... I know everything it's about..."

You said that you knew everything about Christiany but the fact is most people don't know the proofs of the Bible.

This is the problem with people on this forum and in the rest of the world that reject the Bible, they know nothing of the proofs of the Bible but they will make every attempt to deny that it is true. Of course then when you do tell a person all the proofs and you explain them with great detail that person still has the choice to accept or reject the Bible. In many cases, a person will reject the Bible not because of the lack of proof but because they do not want to be under God's regulations but rather continue their sinful lives. Thats why I say it takes more faith not to believe in the Bible. I tell you what there is a ton of proof that the Bible was inspired by God. See for yourself, look it up online. Go to a search engine and type in "proof of the bible" and a long list of sites will come up. But you have to be willing to seek.

EXAMPLES

-Prophetic

More than 300 Prophecies of Jesus' Life Predicted in the Old Testament and then Fulfilled in the New Testament

-Scientific

Roundness of the earth (Isaiah 40:22 (http://www.christiananswers.net/bible/isa40.html#22))
Almost infinite extent of the sidereal universe (Isaiah 55:9 (http://www.christiananswers.net/bible/isa55.html#9))
Law of conservation of mass and energy (II Peter 3:7 (http://www.christiananswers.net/bible/2pet3.html#7))
Hydrologic cycle (Ecclesiastes 1:7 (http://www.christiananswers.net/bible/eccl1.html#7))
Vast number of stars (Jeremiah 33:22 (http://www.christiananswers.net/bible/jer33.html#22))
Law of increasing entropy (Psalm 102:25-27 (http://www.christiananswers.net/bible/psa102.html#25))
Paramount importance of blood in life processes (Leviticus 17:11 (http://www.christiananswers.net/bible/lev17.html#11))
Atmospheric circulation (Ecclesiastes 1:6 (http://www.christiananswers.net/bible/eccl1.html#6))
Gravitational field (Job 26:7 (http://www.christiananswers.net/bible/job26.html#7))
and many others.

Showtime/Redneck-Bud

08-28-2004, 10:01 AM

StonerBill

08-28-2004, 10:21 AM

indeed, lots of poeple fail to remember that the bible has been rewritten, edited, censored, and in many ways is very different to the original scriptures. all bible-beleivers should also read the torah in its entirety as well.

i recon a dollar each (australian dollar) is easily enough. wever got to pay like 4.20 for three.

hehe food that costs 420

why cant god jsut make us some bloody chicken strips then id beleive in him. he should need to earn our faith.

StonerBill

08-28-2004, 10:23 AM

hahahah i jsut realised jailmates in here. i hope hes not on our side of the discussion :confused: :p

JesusDiedForU

08-28-2004, 06:22 PM

JesusInTheSkyKeepsOnTurnin',

Prophetic: That's not prophecy... that's called foreshadowing...

Scientific: All of those verses could've been interpretated as saying anything... you read them expecting to find "scientific facts" and therefor that's what you found when you interpretated them...

And speaking of interpretation... since the bible has been rewritten so many friggin' times, what makes you think someone didn't just reword all these verses to include "scientific facts"...?

O.k. now I am going to have to go elementary on you...

Foreshadowing: To present an indication or a suggestion of beforehand; presage.

Prophecy: A prediction of the future, made under divine inspiration.

The prophecies of the coming messiah in the old testiment(which I must remind you was written before the new testiment) are so detailed that you can almost learn about Jesus in the OT with out reading the new.

Predicted(OT) Fulfilled(NT)
The Messiah will be a born of a virginIsaiah 7:14Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke 1:26-35
The Messiah will be born in BethlehemMicah 5:2Matthew 2:1 and Luke 2:4-7
The Messiah will enter Jerusalem riding a donkeyZechariah 9:9Matthew 21:1-11
The Messiah will be sold for 30 pieces of silverZechariah 11:12,13Matthew 26:15 with Matthew 27:3-10
The Messiah will be pierced through hands and feetPsalm 22:16Luke 23:33 and 24:36-39;
John 19:18 and 20:19-20,24-27
The Messiah will be raised from the dead (resurrected)Psalm 16:10,11 and 49:15Matthew 28:5-9; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:4-7; John 20:11-16; Acts 1:3 and 2:32
http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/m_prophecies.shtml

And these are only a fraction of the messianic prophecies. But I am sure you already you this as you said in the past. And yet these are not the only prophecies in the Bible. There are prophecies concerning the Jews return to Israel. Which they did in 1948. The exact order they would reclaim the land Judah first(1948) Jerusalem second(1967). That when they returned they would be one nation with one ruler unlike before they were kicked out Israel was split into two nations with two rulers. Also that when the Eastern gate was sealed it shall remain shut until the coming of the Messiah(look at my signiture). Its been 400 years and its still shut. But i am sure you have learned all this when you use to go to church, except I did not learn this stuff through church. I learned it from my own research. Something a person has to be willing to do.

In response to the Bible being changed campbell34 just wrote a good post on that:

"It is the deductive reasoning that if the bible has been changed, how would one know that what he is reading was not part of that change? Who is to say what is right or what is wrong. And who is to determine the extent of those changes. Suggesting the bible has been altered sounds sinister. I believe the bible has been translated into other languages, yet the integrity of the scriptures has remained intact."

The Bible for the most part has the same meaning as it ddi 2000 year ago. We know this because of the dead sea scrolls and various other scrolls that were written thousands of years ago almost say the same thing as our Bible does today.

Jesus loves everyone and has a plan for everyone one who is willing to accept him. But the fact is most people do not want to find him because they do not want to turn away from their sinful lives.

Showtime/Redneck-Bud

08-28-2004, 08:27 PM

JesusDiedForU

08-28-2004, 08:54 PM

You can't write a book, tell people what's gonna happen later in yer book, and pass that off as a prophecy... it's all part of the same book...

"B-b-but, Showtime... The Old Test-uh-mint and the New Test-uh-mint were written at different times... so there's no other explanation then 'The Old Test-uh-mint predicted the future'!"

OR... the dudes who wrote the New Test-uh-mint read the Old Test-uh-mint, saw these "prohecies", and said "let's put these in our books"!

OR... there's the rewritten theory again... somebody might've said "since I'm translated the Bible, I should add a few 'prophecies' in the Old Test-uh-mint' that'll 'come true' in the New Test-uh-mint! That'll make believers out of those ingnorant atheists! Hmmmm, maybe I should also write a prophecy about how much chicken strips should cost... Nah... i can't solve every problem by writing phony prophecies..."

That's all fer now... oh yeah and don't call me a sinner... if I don't believe in yer definition of "sin" than how can i consider my life to be "sinful" and therefore desire my "sinful life" and therefore not want to "turn away from my 'sinful life'"? You've gotta stop thinking that everyone thinks the same as you... I mean you seem to think telling me that "if i don't do a certain thing, i won't go to heaven"... I'm an atheist! WHY do you think that means anything to me!?

buh-bye and peace, man...

IT IS A FACT THAT THE OLD TESTMINT WAS WRITTEN BEFORE THE NEW TESTIMENT.

I only told you a few of the prophecies but since you said you "knew everything about Christianity" I figured I didnt have to explain them. Why don't you check out the link in my signiture. How come that gate is still sealed???

Oh yea for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God so I can call you a sinner anytime because you are.... and so AM I and so was the virgin mary and so is the pope and any pastor. Any human that lived or is living has sinned against God and the only way to wash away those sins are to accept Jesus Christ.

I know, most people do not go along with what the Bible says and that is why the Bible says most people will go to hell.

"They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved." (2 thess. 2:10)

Showtime/Redneck-Bud

08-28-2004, 09:07 PM

JesusDiedForU

08-28-2004, 09:17 PM

Dude... yer saying the same things over and over and over and over... it's not making you look that smart...

"Remember there's a big difference between kneeling down and bending over." - Frank Zappa

PS: I have checked out yer site... it made me laugh...
I'M SAYING THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT REBUTTLING THEM....

Ok you look at the website and I asked you if you could explain why the gate is still sealed.

Your response:

"PS: I have checked out yer site... it made me laugh."

WoW you are really convincing!

jailmate

08-29-2004, 12:07 AM

Ok you look at the website and I asked you if you could explain why the gate is still sealed.

Your response: "Jizzes HAD short hair"?

JesusDiedForU

08-29-2004, 12:12 AM

Ok you look at the website and I asked you if you could explain why the gate is still sealed.

Your response: "Jizzes HAD short hair"?

well thought out

Brocktoon

08-29-2004, 01:58 AM

What I do is look at the Sum Total of all the Prophecies made in the Old and New Testaments.

Then I start playing conservative with the numbers..
..and liberal with the possible interpretations.

By 'liberal' I mean that I give the most leniency possible to so Im not 'reading in' more than is possible.

by 'conservative' I mean I am willing to give 'Chance' as much credit as possible.

After all that - Im still astounded by the minimum amount of Prophecy that have so far been fulfilled.

Just predicting the 'empires' could be a 'great intuition and guess' if I really really stretched my imagination.

Just predicting the Temple would be destroyed 'could possibly' be another lucky estimate.

Just predicting The Diaspora 'might' just be a freaky fluke or a highly intelligent insight..

But when I see hundreds of these all coming true (even given the most flexible of interpretations allowable) then I have no choice but to conclude the writers must have had some supernatural gift bestowed upon them.

I cant escape it.

Unless... I use the principles the critics use here:
If there is any chance a prophecy can be interpreted to not precisely fit the event in question (using maximum strictness in word and tense usage) then I 'therefore' cancel out that prophecy.
Then systematically do that with each Prophecy.

In their minds they have 'therefore' eliminated all of them.

I admit I do not have the immense amount of blind faith required to be as assured as the Critics are!

Genesis

08-29-2004, 04:26 AM

This is the problem with people on this forum and in the rest of the world that reject the Bible, they know nothing of the proofs of the Bible but they will make every attempt to deny that it is true.

Foreshadowing: To present an indication or a suggestion of beforehand; presage.

Prophecy: A prediction of the future, made under divine inspiration.

people deny the bible mostly on the grounds that there are many contradictions in terms within it.

foresight and prophecies are the same thing. it's only seen as "different"
because one is considered more rightous. pagans tell the future all the time. are they profits? of course not they just have the gift of foresight or are liars...why?because they are not religious.

Ireland will be a nation once again.....is that prophecy or foresight?

the end will come in a hail of woe and reprisal...if in fifty years the world does come to an end will i have been judged a prophet because i was a christian? no.

point is thats not proof of anything withint the bible. people the world over can see what the future holds. just because someone saw the coming of a saviour does not mean they were a prophet.

the proof of the bible depicting fact is within the factual discoveries. not withint the spiritual enlightenment of those with what could only be described at the time as "crackpot ideas".

those who aren't spiritual cannot look to spiritual factors to assume fact. they look to science,geography,statistics.

they know jesus did exhist, they know he spoke out against the ignorant both religious or not religious alike. they know the sea opened at joesephs feet...some "prophecies" came to pass.

that is fact. as to wether they were of some Godlike intervention...that will "NEVER" be proved.

and because the bible is based on the whole concept of jesus walking on water, god talking to the people,angels in the loft...feats that go against all scientific reasoning bar the historical statistics.....lets face it......it never will BE fact because it is all a spiritual interpretation.

and that goes for prophecies.they never will be proved as prophecies because its quite possible they were actually the rantings of loons.

Showtime/Redneck-Bud

08-29-2004, 05:03 AM

HERE HERE!!

*buys Genesis a beer*

StonerBill

08-29-2004, 05:42 AM

Why were some books of the bible removed in the last mellenia?
because the poeple in power didnt like them?
or because they beleived they werent true?

either explination leads to allow solid basis that either the bible has been edited to become more neat and have better continuity, or that parts of the bible were in fact made up and therefor any part of the bible could be made up.

It doesnt matter if you beleive the new bible and the original scriptures mean the same thing, if they dont say the same thing, then it leads to allow solid basis (exactly same principle as before) that all the scriptures are modifications of those before them, leading to different meanings as modifications build up.

If you want things to mean the same thing, you can interpret them that way, but that doesnt make them any more true than an interpretation that sees every book contradicting the others.

Brocktoon

08-29-2004, 07:39 AM

StonerBill,

Its not often I can dismiss an entire post as nonsense but in your case its easy.
Sorry mate, Im honestly not making a personal 'flame' at you - its just that you really do not know what your talking about, what is actually 'happening' or why you are rambling on about things you 'think' you read somewhere.

Genesis,
You just fell into my previous category of people dismissing each Prophecy in what must be a flawed and inefficient way.
[Im no statistician but try and follow your logic]

You insist that Prophecy-1 might have happened by chance. (Agreed)
However, even if the chances of it happening are 100-1, you will hold on to that 'One' in a Hundred it was NOT Supernatural.

Now, here is the next problem.
You dont weigh all the Prophecies as a whole.

Like I say, I purposely play the numbers conservative but you might consider this.
Prophecy-1 has a 60% chance of being divine prediction
Prophecy-2 has a 75% chance of being divine prediction
Prophecy-3 has a 80% chance of being '' '' '' ''

After a while you are looking at a 1 in 60,000,00 chance these Prophecies (on the whole) are by 'Chance' or 'Guess'.

You seem to go in a reverse direction.
Im not sure that is helpful unless you are trying to fool yourself?

I would be interested if anyone here is handy with numbers to possibly clarify what Im getting at?
I know Josh McDowell had an excellent explanation for the math in his book 'Evidence that Demands a Verdict'
Anyone got a copy?

JesusDiedForU

08-30-2004, 12:46 AM

Foreshadowing: To present an indication or a suggestion of beforehand; presage.

Prophecy: A prediction of the future, made under divine inspiration.

people deny the bible mostly on the grounds that there are many contradictions in terms within it.

foresight and prophecies are the same thing. it's only seen as "different"
because one is considered more rightous. pagans tell the future all the time. are they profits? of course not they just have the gift of foresight or are liars...why?because they are not religious.

Ireland will be a nation once again.....is that prophecy or foresight?

the end will come in a hail of woe and reprisal...if in fifty years the world does come to an end will i have been judged a prophet because i was a christian? no.

point is thats not proof of anything withint the bible. people the world over can see what the future holds. just because someone saw the coming of a saviour does not mean they were a prophet.

the proof of the bible depicting fact is within the factual discoveries. not withint the spiritual enlightenment of those with what could only be described at the time as "crackpot ideas".

those who aren't spiritual cannot look to spiritual factors to assume fact. they look to science,geography,statistics.

they know jesus did exhist, they know he spoke out against the ignorant both religious or not religious alike. they know the sea opened at joesephs feet...some "prophecies" came to pass.

that is fact. as to wether they were of some Godlike intervention...that will "NEVER" be proved.

and because the bible is based on the whole concept of jesus walking on water, god talking to the people,angels in the loft...feats that go against all scientific reasoning bar the historical statistics.....lets face it......it never will BE fact because it is all a spiritual interpretation.

and that goes for prophecies.they never will be proved as prophecies because its quite possible they were actually the rantings of loons.

You don't know the prophecies. Prophecies are detailed. You would know that if you knew the prophecies.

Lets take the Messianic prophecies:

Before Jesus came the Bible wrote...

The messiah would be born of a virgin.
The messiah would be sold for 30 piecies of silver.
The messiah would be cruxified.
The Messiah would rise from the died.

AND REMEMBER THIS IS BEFORE THOUSANDS OF YEARS BEFORE CHRIST CAME TO THE EARTH. AND THESE ARE ONLY 4 OF THE MORE THAT 300+ PROPHECIES THAT JESUS FULFILLED.

So don't say the prophecies of the Bible are vague.

Showtime/Redneck-Bud

08-30-2004, 01:19 AM

Predicting something that will happen later in the book is not a prophecy, JesusDude... if anything, it's foreshadowing... sorry... please don't cry...

JesusDiedForU

08-30-2004, 02:58 AM

Predicting something that will happen later in the book is not a prophecy, JesusDude... if anything, it's foreshadowing... sorry... please don't cry...
What if the book was written over a time spand of 1600 years. And few of the authors that wrote the Bible predicted something-in detail-early in that 1600 years that came true later in that 1600 years?

It is a fact that the OT was written before the NT remember that.

FreakyJoeMan

08-30-2004, 03:08 AM

Jozak

08-30-2004, 04:07 AM

FreakyJoe the post was fucking awesome.

JesusDiedForU

08-30-2004, 04:53 AM

FreakyJoe the post was fucking awesome.
Of course you think it's awesome because if the Bible is true that means you have to change your ways change for the good and that is something you do not want to do. So anything that goes against the Bible is a masterpiece to you.

JesusDiedForU

08-30-2004, 05:17 AM

FreakyJoeMan,

"Nearly all religious books were written over a long period of time, does this fact validate them as true? "

-Showtime was trying to say that the Bible predictions were not valid because they predicted and fulfilled within itself. That's why I had to explain to him that the Bible was not written in a day, a month, a year, but centuries. And when the predictions were made about the coming messiah they were made centuries before Christ even came to the earth.

"Also, in refrence to predicting the future, the Aztecs had the most sophisticated calender known to man, and they predicted that the world would end round 2012. Will it? And if we beleive they're right, should we resume worshiping Quetzoquotl and preforming human sacrifices?(I'm sorry if I confused the Aztecs and the Myans). And as for the Bible predicting the future, the things said in revelations are so odd that I don't see them happening any time soon."

-But what have Myans predicted that has come true? Most of what the Bible has predicted has come true. There are only a few prophecies left and today they are being fulfilled.

"And as for the Bible predicting the future, the things said in revelations are so odd that I don't see them happening any time soon. "

-Probably because you really never look at the Bible. But you are looking at end-time prophecies to narrow. End time prophecies are all over the Bible-not just in revelation. For a good overview look at matthew 24-"Jesus tells about the future." But if you really want to get the whole picture read this:

http://r-campbell34.tripod.com/babylon

GanjaPrince

08-30-2004, 05:34 AM

People aren't really that against christians, they are against the fundementalism more, thesaying my path is the best, screw everybody else, they are evil sinners that need to be saved, ahh. If you live the teachings of christ, and become loving, forgiving and serving your fellow man, if you be the christ heart, and open to that unconditional love, that place, that heart space will tell you more then words ever could.

The following comes from www.ramdasstapes.org (http://www.ramdasstapes.org/), this says what I really have to say about Christ.

'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind." This is the great and foremost commandment. "And a second is like it, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets." (Jesus as quoted by Matthew 22:37 (http://www.ramdasstapes.org/DOCUME~1/MARILY~1/LOCALS~1/life-of-jesus-ancient/biography-of-jesus-christ/who-is-Jesus-by-matthew/gospel-of-matthew-22_34-40.shtml))

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." (Jesus as quoted by John 13:34-35 (http://www.ramdasstapes.org/DOCUME~1/MARILY~1/LOCALS~1/life-of-jesus-ancient/biography-of-jesus-christ/who-is-Jesus-by-john/gospel-of-john-13_31-38.shtml))

"You must accept the teachings of Christ and follow them. Christ said to be like a little child-never think or speak anything, that could harm anyone ....... He was crucified so that his spirit could spread throughout the world . He sacrificed his body for the dharma. He never died, he never died. He is Atman (The Soul) living in the hearts of all........Why was Christ so maligned?" Maharajji was asked."It is so with all saints, they see only love in everyone. You should not speak, hear or do evil. You should see love everywhere and in everyone. See the good in all."
excerpts from Miracle of Love Stories about Neem Karoli Baba by Ram Dass

SO, do you think this is anti-christian, because it presents an alternative view of Christ that is not accepted by mainstream christianity, but rather by mystics in many different religions and path, including certain sects of christianity!

When you realize that heart of eternal compassion, when you are laughing and playing with god, dancing with the oneness of your love, you see the unity in the religious, spiritual paths, you see the unity in all things.

The thing is we seem to communicate this different in words, some say this, some say that.

We need to drop the spiritual elitism, the fundementalist, everything by the book insanity, go beyond the rational mind, find the divine madness, and dance and play with god together as ONE!

JesusDiedForU

08-30-2004, 05:43 AM

GanjaPrince,

Through your understanding how would one get to heaven?

GanjaPrince

08-30-2004, 06:02 AM

Heaven is buried in this present moment. It is a place inside where all your desires are fulfilled. Tremendous bliss, overwhelming happiness, seeing light shine from all that is around you, because you now look out from your inner heart, the world is transformed, each person you see is Christ smiling at you, every blade of grass is God singing, "I love you!" you are filled with the holy spirit, as your march that freedom highway deeper and deeper within.

Jesus said, "The kingdom of God is within."

That means it is in you, your heart... you don't go to wait until you die while marching around preaching about being a true believer or whatever getting points for some hotel in the sky. It's in you, in your heart, deep in there but it is THERE! In your soul, you must become one with christ.

The goal of a true christian is to live Christ, is to become one with christ... Like mother theresa, sitting at a table in silence, all the beings around her she sees as her savior christ, then all the help she gives to those that suffer so much, she is making love to those suffering beings she serves. She is doing it because she loves christ so much, so much her hands are practically bleeding his wounds, she does everyone he recommends to become one with christ, she is living it, not saying my path is the best and all the sinners are going to hell... she would probably say who am I to judge, or something equally as cute!

christ is meant to inspire us, God is so beautiful, so wonderful, that giving everything to her is worth it. Total surrender, even your body, nails in your hands, screaming out in pain, and laughing with god on the inside, total love, total bliss, total surrender to god!

Note: (Sure there are astral planes that are heavenly that one could go to when the body dies, but an astral heaven is just one option, there are all kinds of planes of reality that all exist HERE AND NOW, the souls can travel from body to body, it can also go to higher and lower planes depending on the situation and what the soul needs to learn... No hell is permanant, and no astral heaven is forever. God is forever, her love is infinite!)

sylvanlightning

08-30-2004, 06:09 AM

Seek the kingdom of heaven within you.
I and my father are one.
What I have done you can do also and more.
Walk with me hand in hand and gaze and the limitless light of my formless face.

Words...

Seek the living word within.
Go into yourself and listen.
Prayer is speaking to God.

Meditation is listening to God.

Let thine eye be single and the body will fill with light.

Peace be with you & Namaste,
Yeshua

JesusDiedForU

08-30-2004, 06:19 AM

bandit28

08-30-2004, 01:12 PM

Well, for one, she never answered your question. I also noticed that she attempts to speak as if she has all the answers. She mentions things one would only expirience when using drugs. So many things she said contradict The Bible.

John 10:10
The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it more abundantlyThere are other scriptures that may fit this situation better, however, I find this one as being a light at the end of a tunnel. It reminds me that satan is hard at work every second attempting to distract people from God. It would seem, that from your post satan is doing his work on you. I agree with Jesus being love in it's purest form. However, He does not reside in all of us. As a matter of fact, when looking at the population of the world, Jesus exists in but only a few of our hearts. Again, this is talked about in The Bible that so many want to discredit. When I speak of my relationship with Jesus I am not speaking about a religion. I am speaking about a personal relationship. I don't follow a religion, I follow The Bible's instructions to my best ability as a human and ask for forgivnes when I fail.

All that said. What you speak of will never happen. At least, not while I am on this earth. The world will eventualy see peace, but it will be led by the anti-christ. To me it would seem your views on Christ are led by a dilusion feeding off the use of drugs. You will deny all of this, but I will make 2 more points. You mention God as a her. Well, God created man after His own image. Jesus also called Him The Father, His Father.

No hell is permanant, and no astral heaven is forever. God is forever, her love is infinite!Again, you are contradicting God's Word. Hell is real and So is Heaven. You can believe it or not, but in the end, you will end up in one of the two. Jesus said he is the only way into Heaven. All your good work wont get you there. From your post alone this is why I again refer to John 10:10. It would seem you are here only to destroy God.

StonerBill

08-30-2004, 01:42 PM

Of course you think it's awesome because if the Bible is true that means you have to change your ways change for the good and that is something you do not want to do. So anything that goes against the Bible is a masterpiece to you.
thats such a typical christian thing to say. assuming atheists are sinners? Im an atheist but i follow the morals set down by the bible more than most beleivers i know.

the majority of poeple who claim to be religious dont uphold the teachings of jesus if they can help it and if they do they think everyhting ok as long as they go to church about it.

The basis of christianity, and gathering from most of the comments by christians, is that you beleivers only do waht you do so that you can go to heaven.

My atheist beleifs bring morality to an issue of actual compassion for life, instead of the rules one must follow to enjoy an eternal afterlife.

This is one of my biggest problems with religion.

And dont any of you christians deny that your following god's teachings so that you can go to heaven. If you do, back it up with a lot!

bandit28

08-30-2004, 03:45 PM

assuming atheists are sinners?Everyone is a sinner, not just non-believers. Christians sin as well.

Oh, and I don't follow Jesus just to get into Heaven. I yern for a relationship with Him. Heaven is a reward for serving Him. I long to have a better relationship with Him. He fills that void in our lives. It's more than Heaven. It's peace and satisfaction, it's love and that warm fuzzy fealing. It's everything I need in my life. Again, Heaven is just a reward.

The World of Dan

08-30-2004, 03:51 PM

So many things that contradict the Bible I don't know where to start.Why not start on the things in the Bible that contradict themselves?

Genesis

08-30-2004, 05:16 PM

StonerBill,

Genesis,
You just fell into my previous category of people dismissing each Prophecy in what must be a flawed and inefficient way.
[Im no statistician but try and follow your logic]

You insist that Prophecy-1 might have happened by chance. (Agreed)
However, even if the chances of it happening are 100-1, you will hold on to that 'One' in a Hundred it was NOT Supernatural.

Now, here is the next problem.
You dont weigh all the Prophecies as a whole.

Like I say, I purposely play the numbers conservative but you might consider this.
Prophecy-1 has a 60% chance of being divine prediction
Prophecy-2 has a 75% chance of being divine prediction
Prophecy-3 has a 80% chance of being '' '' '' ''

After a while you are looking at a 1 in 60,000,00 chance these Prophecies (on the whole) are by 'Chance' or 'Guess'.

You seem to go in a reverse direction.
Im not sure that is helpful unless you are trying to fool yourself?

I would be interested if anyone here is handy with numbers to possibly clarify what Im getting at?
I know Josh McDowell had an excellent explanation for the math in his book 'Evidence that Demands a Verdict'
Anyone got a copy?lmao...no i wasn't saying that....prophecies are only prophecies to people who are believe in the spiritual intervention of god....in otherwords...if god speaks to his chosen one.

my point was prophecy does not prove a religion to be accurate. nothing can prove the bible to be acurate upon the matter of spirituality because spirituality cannot fall within reasoning for the world because people cannot find proof of spirituality.

yes they hear "stories" that give evidence to prove there "might" exist spirituality and divine intervention.that leaves reasonable doubt though.

but for those who are non believers, trying to convince them that prophecy and forsight was fulfilled and therefore the bible is true because of that is not going to happen because they are people who need real scientific answers not just the ramblings of christians saying that yes in fact god spoke to these people.think of how unrealistic that attempt at "proof" would be to you if you didn't believe.

the bible is not proved just because someone said jesus will be crucified and he was. there is a lot more to it then just that.something that runs a lot deeper.

if you don't believe in spiritual intervention then prophecies are null because you don't believe in god. and if we as believers can only prove he existed by saying the prophecies made of the coming of jesus in the old testament actually came true as depicted in the new testament [taking into consideration that they don't believe in the bible as a depiction of fact] then we are not actually proving anything and both sides are left ignorant for it.

christians put a lot of faith in the possibility of prophecy. non-believers do not. relying on a book that might just be a heap of crap, to a non believer ,discounts them as valid or possible so all they will see it as is foresight or us beig blind.

i myself believe prophecies are fulfilled.not all within the bible to me were spoken from the mouth of god to his chosen one. but i do believe that most were. but i do not rely on these "possibilities" as the defining force of the bible which i think is what a lot of people do

and anyway that post begs the question, did that writer find mathematical proof that god exists and spoke to the prophets...or does it prove that 1 in 6000 will get it right? just wondering..im mildly sceptical of the former to be honest. just if you could clear that one up.

GanjaPrince

08-30-2004, 05:55 PM

I just want to add, that not all christians think, act, speak and promote these fundementalist ideals that are being put forth in this post. In the same way that the Islamic religion is often labeled as awful because of the extreme terrorist sects, people forget the dancing mystical sufi sect that write poetry, seek divine love, and talk about the unity in religions. Many christians feel the bible is symbolic and everything in it, should not be taken at totally literal, they have respect and tolerance for other religions, and seek to follow the teachings of Christ about love, forgiveness, nonviolence and other such things. Many of these christians do not claim that christ is the only way, and all other spiritual and non-spiritual people are going to some lake of fire, instead they see it as the path they have chosen and focus on bettering themselves not claiming that they are better. These christians which are closer to the true spirit of Christ, should not be put in a box with extreme fundementalists that deserve much compassion and love. These fundementalists are shaming the beloved Jesus Christ, they are shaming his message, they are shaming his sacrafice on the cross. Jesus cries tears of blissful compassion for them and urges us to forgive them for they do not know.

Qualities of Christ consciousness

Matt 7:1
Judge not, that ye be not judged.

non-judging mind. You see God in all, all in god. Or as the buddhists would say, you see only emptiness of form, while seeing the formlessness and transitory nature of ultimate reality which frees you from all suffering yet have total compassion for those that do not see it...

Matt 22:37-39
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Total love for all that is, everything is god, you love it with all of your essence, in mind, body and soul... and other beings are you, they have this kingdom of god within, they deserve as much love as you should give yourself. See all thier "flaws" as your flaws, they deserve unconditional love!

Matt 26:52
Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

non-violence is the answer, or if we take up the sword (violence) we will destroy ourselves.

Luke 17:21
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

He saying, you look for it within you, find a technique, the breath, raja yoga, kriya yoga, mantra, chanting, whatever, what have you, seek this kingdom not in the external world, but find it within yourself! IN this moment, NOW!

John 14:6 (http://ompage.net/Text/theway.htm)
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

This means, coming into the father (God-conciousness, buddha realm, ultimate reality, krishna consciousness, the garden of allah, the ein-sof, it has been called many things by many mystics but it is BEYOND words) you must come by him, meaning you take on all the attributes of christ...

this happened, to all the great mystics, saints, they were loving, forgiving, had the same sorts of powers also known as siddhis as Jesus, we all share it, it is in all of us.

praise be all that is!

Jozak

08-30-2004, 06:33 PM

Of course you think it's awesome because if the Bible is true that means you have to change your ways change for the good and that is something you do not want to do. So anything that goes against the Bible is a masterpiece to you.
Are you kidding me? I follow the bible....I'm Catholic, I thought the pic in my sig was pretty obvious. Stop jumping to conclusions, FreakyJoe made some good points in his post, and if you opened up your mind a tiny bit you might be able to see that.

JesusDiedForU

08-30-2004, 07:08 PM

Why not start on the things in the Bible that contradict themselves?
Oh I know I sin(I try not to) but I sin. However, I do know I don't preach things that contradict the Bible or agree with people that preach things that contradict the Bible. The Bible is truth and anything that goes against the Bible is a lie.

JesusDiedForU

08-30-2004, 07:13 PM

Are you kidding me? I follow the bible....I'm Catholic, I thought the pic in my sig was pretty obvious. Stop jumping to conclusions, FreakyJoe made some good points in his post, and if you opened up your mind a tiny bit you might be able to see that.
Jesus said many people will worship him with their lips but their hearts are far from him. A picture of the virgin Mary is not what gets you saved. But it is what is in your heart-if you trully love Jesus-he only knows. Again, the Bible is truth and anything that goes against the Bible is a lie.

Jozak

08-30-2004, 07:59 PM

Jesus said many people will worship him with their lips but their hearts are far from him.
Okay.....point? I could just as easily say the same thing to you.

A picture of the virgin Mary is not what gets you saved.
I never said it did. I am just proud of my Roman Catholic Christianity.

But it is what is in your heart-if you trully love Jesus-he only knows. Again, the Bible is truth and anything that goes against the Bible is a lie.
Anything that goes against what in the bible? What about our laws that forbid slavery and stoning women for adultery? You have to interpret the Old Testament in a non literal manor, otherwise you would end up supporting such outdated punishments.

campbell34

08-30-2004, 08:17 PM

Nearly all religious books were written over a long period of time, does this fact validate them as true? Also, in refrence to predicting the future, the Aztecs had the most sophisticated calender known to man, and they predicted that the world would end round 2012. Will it? And if we beleive they're right, should we resume worshiping Quetzoquotl and preforming human sacrifices?(I'm sorry if I confused the Aztecs and the Myans). And as for the Bible predicting the future, the things said in revelations are so odd that I don't see them happening any time soon. Or is it, unlike all the other parts of the bible, Revelations are open to interpretation and metaphore? Is the Great Beast communist Russia, or Kim Jong Il, or maybe David Hasselhoff? And of course, the great hero of the story will have to be the U.S., the great shining beakon of hope and prosperity and moral clarity in this world of heresies, and degredation and, dare GOD is say it(!): secularism????!?!
Sorry FreakyJoeMan. The Myan Calender does not predict the end of the world in the year 2012. That was a conclusion some people made up because that was the year the Myan calender ended. I have a calender that ends in 2006, and I'm sure the world will continue after that date. If you just read the book of Revelation you will always be left trying to interpret it. You see the way the bible was setup, God put half of the prophecy in the New testament and the other half is in the Old Testament. Unless you put the prophecies together they don't make any sense. According to bible prophecy, the beginning of the end of the world as we know it, would start when the Jews retake Israel and Jerusalem. The prophecies have a lot to say about the United States. God said that our nation is hard pressed against the Holy God of Israel. America has blood on it's hands. We have laws that give us the legal right to abort 40 million American children, but God is not impressed. According to the prophecies, a judgement will fall on America. The prophecies clearly state, that God will allow northern nations to rise up against us. And these nations will destroy all of America's cities with fire in one hours time. The prophecies state, that afterwards, the land will be so polluted that no man will ever be able to live here again. The bible states that at the same time, the sun will be dimmed, and the moon will appear blood red. If you know anything about nuclear winter, you will understand what is being stated here.
America gave up the moral high ground a long time ago. Just before America is destroyed, God will send in an angelic rescue mission to save those who love Him. God said the destruction of our nation will be simular to the destruction of Sodom and Gamora. Remember when God destroyed those cities in the bible he sent His angles to rescue lot and his family.

mynameiskc

08-30-2004, 08:20 PM

Okay.....point? I could just as easily say the same thing to you.

I never said it did. I am just proud of my Roman Catholic Christianity.

Anything that goes against what in the bible? What about our laws that forbid slavery and stoning women for adultery? You have to interpret the Old Testament in a non literal manor, otherwise you would end up supporting such outdated punishments.
you know, jozak, i'd post ehre more but you've pretty much got it under control keep up the good work!

JesusDiedForU

08-30-2004, 08:30 PM

Jozak,

"I never said it did. I am just proud of my Roman Catholic Christianity."

-The Bible speaks of having pride before a fall

"Anything that goes against what in the bible? What about our laws that forbid slavery and stoning women for adultery? You have to interpret the Old Testament in a non literal manor, otherwise you would end up supporting such outdated punishments."

-The stoning of women was under the OT law. The reason for the OT law was to prove to the world that the law was not suffiecient for salvation. The NT which we now live under transcends those outdated punishments and that is why Jesus said he is without sin cast the first stone.

Stalkz

08-30-2004, 10:23 PM

By the large number of threads started to attack Christians and the huge volume of posts against Christians, I am compelled to ask, "Why? Why do so many deem it neccessary to attack the morals and beliefs of Christians?" Most will come to the defense of religions, and nonreligions that are not Christian based, but rarely does one come to the defense of Christians. There are many religions and beliefs that are much older than Christianity, but they are not attacked. A lot of what I read against Christianity is that it is old, or outdated. Seems to me that by that reasoning, no belief system beyond last year is worthy of believing. What do Christian bashers gain by thier assaults on Christians?
People attack Christianity because it is an infantile blind faith religion.

Most religions try to have things to THINK about, like Buddhism, and Rastafari, time is spent contimplating things, not just following for no god damn reason other than pretending it's because you "feel jesus' love". Most religions don't contradict themselves so much you can't even make a list, within the same chapter. Most religions don't tell everyone who doesn't believe that they'll burn in fire for eternity.

JesusDiedForU

08-30-2004, 10:35 PM

People attack Christianity because it is an infantile blind faith religion.

Most religions try to have things to THINK about, like Buddhism, and Rastafari, time is spent contimplating things, not just following for no god damn reason other than pretending it's because you "feel jesus' love". Most religions don't contradict themselves so much you can't even make a list, within the same chapter. Most religions don't tell everyone who doesn't believe that they'll burn in fire for eternity.

Wow! Is this your first time in this forum because campbell and I have been writing for awhile now for a while now that Christianity is far from blind faith. The Bible is what seperates Christianity from all religions. It was inspired by God. Prove the Bible wrong and you might have a case... but that will not happen... to save time click the link in my signiture.

FreakyJoeMan

08-30-2004, 10:59 PM

Sorry FreakyJoeMan. The Myan Calender does not predict the end of the world in the year 2012. That was a conclusion some people made up because that was the year the Myan calender ended. I have a calender that ends in 2006, and I'm sure the world will continue after that date. If you just read the book of Revelation you will always be left trying to interpret it. You see the way the bible was setup, God put half of the prophecy in the New testament and the other half is in the Old Testament. Unless you put the prophecies together they don't make any sense. According to bible prophecy, the beginning of the end of the world as we know it, would start when the Jews retake Israel and Jerusalem. The prophecies have a lot to say about the United States. God said that our nation is hard pressed against the Holy God of Israel. America has blood on it's hands. We have laws that give us the legal right to abort 40 million American children, but God is not impressed. According to the prophecies, a judgement will fall on America. The prophecies clearly state, that God will allow northern nations to rise up against us. And these nations will destroy all of America's cities with fire in one hours time. The prophecies state, that afterwards, the land will be so polluted that no man will ever be able to live here again. The bible states that at the same time, the sun will be dimmed, and the moon will appear blood red. If you know anything about nuclear winter, you will understand what is being stated here.
America gave up the moral high ground a long time ago. Just before America is destroyed, God will send in an angelic rescue mission to save those who love Him. God said the destruction of our nation will be simular to the destruction of Sodom and Gamora. Remember when God destroyed those cities in the bible he sent His angles to rescue lot and his family.

Ahhh, look, the bible is not, I repeat, not indesputable fact. Look, the preacher at our church admits that. It's not objective, 'twas written by men over a period of a couple decades, or even centuries, and is a product of religion, culture, and just happenstance.

Look: the desk I am sitting at is made out of molecules. <<<That is fact.

God will destroy America for having legal abortions<<< As such, this is not fact because, for one, it is a "prediction" and you cannnot, cannot accurately predict the future. Second, there isn't incontrovertible truth that there is a god in the first place.

And while we're at it, why would 'God' only destroy america for having a law protecting abortion rights, and not, say, stopping Saddam Hussein from gassing the Kurds, or preventing the mass genocide of the Tutsies in Rwanda, or fucking selling weapons to Saddam Hussein in the first place??

Prophesies, prophesies...hmmmmmm...I prophesise that I shall live to be one hundred and two, and in my lifetime, I shall make love to thousands of women, create a cure for cancer, and put a bullet in the head of Kim Jong Il. It is true, can you prove me wrong?

This will prolly be my last post in the Phi/Relig. forum for a while, cause my head's startin to hurt. Adios, you poor bastards.

seamonster66

08-30-2004, 11:06 PM

Quote: Just before America is destroyed, God will send in an angelic rescue mission to save those who love Him. God said the destruction of our nation will be simular to the destruction of Sodom and Gamora.

When did god discuss America...I know America discusses god constantly, just never read anything in the bible about the 215 year old country.

Christinas WISH and HOPE that things will be this cut and dried, that they will be saved by an angel prior to gods destruction of the country because of its abortion practices....
keep on praying for something to come save YOU while other people actually work on fixing the problems we have here on Earth, the REAL problems that threaten the existence of human life.

mynameiskc

08-30-2004, 11:32 PM

well, seamonster, i'm sure many christians would say they they ARE actively trying to right the wrongs in america, but you will say that you don't like the way they're going about it.

Genesis

08-31-2004, 01:31 AM

I just want to add, that not all christians think, act, speak and promote these fundementalist ideals that are being put forth in this post. !

sorry but i was just wondering was that in reference to my post?

cos im not a fundamentalist i don't think.i just always saw myself as christian. i thought they were just christians that hated gays? or am i completely wrong.:eek: i see how ignorant that may sound but i really don't know anything about fundamentalist christians.

Genesis

08-31-2004, 01:36 AM

Ahhh, look, the bible is not, I repeat, not indesputable fact.

Look: the desk I am sitting at is made out of molecules. <<<That is fact.

Prophesies, prophesies...hmmmmmm...I prophesise that I shall live to be one hundred and two, and in my lifetime, I shall make love to thousands of women, create a cure for cancer, and put a bullet in the head of Kim Jong Il. It is true, can you prove me wrong?

hee hee....brilliant.

Showtime/Redneck-Bud

08-31-2004, 02:16 AM

JesusDiedAfterSex,

"Showtime was trying to say that the Bible predictions were not valid because they predicted and fulfilled within itself. That's why I had to explain to him that the Bible was not written in a day, a month, a year, but centuries."

Listen... i know the OT and the NT weren't written at the same time... maybe stupid ol' me shoulda made my point clearer...

I believe Jesus existed... but he was no messiah... all of these prophecies probly were predicted in the OT... but they probly never actually happened... knowing that this proves the bible (and therefore god) horribly wrong, the people that wrote the NT decided it would be best to just go ahead say that all of that bulshit did happen... even though it didn't...

"Wow! Is this your first time in this forum because campbell and I have been writing for awhile now for a while now that Christianity is far from blind faith."

So... you still just can't get over the shock that people can't just be convinced of the "good word" simply by saying it's true... and oh yeah, i know you have all that "evidence" of yers... pbbbth!!

Y'know, if yer having trouble converting "sinners" here, maybe you should just try another website forum... buh-bye and peace, man...

JesusDiedForU

08-31-2004, 02:50 AM

Showtime/Redneck-Bud

Listen... i know the OT and the NT weren't written at the same time... maybe stupid ol' me shoulda made my point clearer...

-Then why did you say this:

"Predicting something that will happen later in the book is not a prophecy, JesusDude... if anything, it's foreshadowing..."

I believe Jesus existed... but he was no messiah... all of these prophecies probly were predicted in the OT... but they probly never actually happened... knowing that this proves the bible (and therefore god) horribly wrong, the people that wrote the NT decided it would be best to just go ahead say that all of that bulshit did happen... even though it didn't...

-Why would the writters of the NT die for a lie then?

So... you still just can't get over the shock that people can't just be convinced of the "good word" simply by saying it's true... and oh yeah, i know you have all that "evidence" of yers... pbbbth!!

Y'know, if yer having trouble converting "sinners" here, maybe you should just try another website forum... buh-bye and peace, man...

You've seen the truth....but your still crying wolf.... you'll never believe...

How can I convert you when it seems you already committed to a religion-Denialism

Genesis

08-31-2004, 02:53 AM

what truth?

christianity?

god?

or the truth about how you answered his questions to the best of your knowledge and ability?

JesusDiedForU

08-31-2004, 02:56 AM

what truth?

christianity?

god?

or the truth about how you answered his questions to the best of your knowledge and ability?
You read the link in my signiture right?

Showtime/Redneck-Bud

08-31-2004, 03:03 AM

JesusChristopherWalken,

"Then why did you say this:"

I explained that in the next paragraph of that post...

"Why would the writters of the NT die for a lie then?"

I dunno... there's no figuring some people...

"You've seen the truth....but your still crying wolf.... you'll never believe..."

I'll "never believe" because I don't care enough to... there is no scared widdle ignorant atheist Showtime refusing to admit the "obvious truths of the bible" because he's afraid the world he always knew will come tumbling down around him... i honestly just don't care... yer refusing to see that because (once again) yer too arrogant to accept the fact that some people in this world are gonna disagree with you... buh-bye and peace, man...

GanjaPrince

08-31-2004, 03:10 AM

Genesis, my post was meant for all christians that do not adopt that totally literal fundementalist approach to the bible. I wish to honor them, and assure our anti-christian brothers and sisters that not all christians are like that, in fact, fundementalists DO NOT represent the majority of christians...

Look: the desk I am sitting at is made out of molecules. <<<That is fact.

.well actually that is still the surface, deeper and deeper is subatomic particles, deeper still is the unified field, that has been proven and still has yet to be disproven... this unified field made up of these subatomic particles flowing in an endless sea of interconnected energy, expands the whole universe, thus everything is this one pure supreme energy. Thus there is no "desk" there is only YOU, for YOU are this energy as much as ME as much as the DESK, we are all this energy, we all come from this source, this consciousness, some call it god, allah, krishna, the ultimate reality that was realized by the buddha... in fact, we all fight each other about what to call it.

Life is but a dream, death is but a transformation, everything is flowing in super intelligent pure energy, you are the buddha, you are the christ, you are the ancient one, find a place of total compassion and love for all beings, and ride the heavenly present moment deep into... beyond concepts, beyond the rational mind, total bliss, beyond suffering, out of mind, out of body, laughing laughing, then beyond all such things. You never come back, you would never want to, it puts you back because you have more to do on this plane, i have been there, we all have, let's remember!

I love who we are!

In the fundementalist's universe if we follow the logic presented by them... here is an example of some poor sap that will burn in the lake of fire... a bushman living in the remote parts of africa and living a simple beautiful life... These people are nice, have no fights, live together in harmony because they have no poccessions, and if they fought they couldn't survive... they are peaceful... this bushman growing up has never heard about religion or any of the outside world, they have no technology, just live in a family tribe... they just know about the gods, and these gods have given them everything they ever needed, the religion is simple, primative, and the politics of it, is confined to finding enough water to survive in the very dry climate. But he doesn't believe in the fundementalist's religion, therefore, upon death, he is bound to their ego delusion also known as the lake of fire, eternal hell... he must suffer not for a hundred years, not even for five thousand, but forever... just because he was born as a bushman. Yet that is the way it is, those people in the streets with signs that say death to fags or abortion is murder, those people talking about hell all the time, and believing is the way to be saved, these people always talking about how soon the end of the world is, then changing the date to a few years after they said it would dead... THese people that deserve our love and compassion... these people are apparently the only people chosen for a life in eternal heaven, at least they aren't ignorant enough to believe they will get seven virgins or something like that.

Jozak

08-31-2004, 03:52 AM

Jozak,

"I never said it did. I am just proud of my Roman Catholic Christianity."

-The Bible speaks of having pride before a fall

Excuse me? Are you proud of being American? Have you ever been proud of anything in your life? If so, your a hypocrite. You are obviously a proud Christian, why can't I be? Who are you to tell someone they cannot be proud of their culture, heritage, religion, etc?

"Anything that goes against what in the bible? What about our laws that forbid slavery and stoning women for adultery? You have to interpret the Old Testament in a non literal manor, otherwise you would end up supporting such outdated punishments."

-The stoning of women was under the OT law. The reason for the OT law was to prove to the world that the law was not suffiecient for salvation. The NT which we now live under transcends those outdated punishments and that is why Jesus said he is without sin cast the first stone.
Okay, so you agree that the Old Testament should be interpreted in a non literal manor, do you also agree that the part about gays and jonah being swallowed by a whale should be interpreted differently?

Example--God created the world in "7 days" right? Well, a day to God could be millions of years to us, is that a fair assesment? I mean it does not matter that much, I was just getting your opinion on this.

GanjaPrince

08-31-2004, 04:04 AM

jozak, you know, the way your words flow I see the harmony, I see the beauty, praise be you. :)

much love and healing to all of you

May all beings be happy
May all beings be safe
May all beings be at peace
May all beings be free

Showtime/Redneck-Bud

08-31-2004, 04:07 AM

GanjaPrince, yer a trip man...:cool:

JesusDiedForU

08-31-2004, 04:39 AM

[b]
Okay, so you agree that the Old Testament should be interpreted in a non literal manor, do you also agree that the part about gays and jonah being swallowed by a whale should be interpreted differently?

Example--God created the world in "7 days" right? Well, a day to God could be millions of years to us, is that a fair assesment? I mean it does not matter that much, I was just getting your opinion on this.
-The Bible clearly states that being gay is a sin against God(He destroyed cities for it)

-I do believe that story of Jonah and the whale really did happen. Jesus said it really happened to in Matthew 12:39-40.

-The Bible says 1 day with the lord is a 1000 years

Showtime/Redneck-Bud

08-31-2004, 04:44 AM

"The Bible clearly states that being gay is a sin against God(He destroyed cities for it)"

So... what yer sayin' is... god... is a bigot and a prick... hm!... well then... screw god...

JesusDiedForU

08-31-2004, 05:02 AM

"The Bible clearly states that being gay is a sin against God(He destroyed cities for it)"

So... what yer sayin' is... god... is a bigot and a prick... hm!... well then... screw god...
What I am saying is the world chooses to follow not the God of the Bible but one of his former angels-the devil. So what seems normal to the world in reality is evil.

I believe campbell's sig describes is best:

"The god of this age(the devil) has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." (II Corinthians 4:4)

Showtime/Redneck-Bud

08-31-2004, 05:27 AM

But god is still a bigoted homophobe, right.... ok, jest checkin'...

JesusDiedForU

08-31-2004, 05:38 AM

But god is still a bigoted homophobe, right.... ok, jest checkin'...
I guess when you look at the devil's point of view

Jozak

08-31-2004, 05:45 AM

-The Bible clearly states that being gay is a sin against God(He destroyed cities for it)

-I do believe that story of Jonah and the whale really did happen. Jesus said it really happened to in Matthew 12:39-40.

-The Bible says 1 day with the lord is a 1000 years
Soddam and Gammarah was destroyed not simply because of homosexuality, it was a wasteland of immorality, hetero/homo/ and everything else you can probably think of.

Why is it that you will admit it's not okay to hold slaves as captives or stone women, but still adhere to the belief about homosexuals, not to mention Christ never said one word about homosexuality. Ancient Rome and Greece were notorious for embracing homosexuality, especially the Greeks, do you honestly think Christ would have not have said something about it?

Showtime/Redneck-Bud

08-31-2004, 05:46 AM

Well, if god hates gays, that makes him a homophobe... so i guess Lucifer is right on this one...

Satan: Gee, thanks, Showtime!

Showtime: Anytime, man...

Satan: Hey... i got two tickets to see the Allman Brothers... wanna come?

Showtime: Hell yes! I loves ze Allman Brothers!

Satan: Allright, let's go!

(Satan and Showtime hop into Satan's old Station Wagon)

Frank Zappa: Hold on! I wanna go to!

Satan and Showtime: Sweet!!

okay, okay... i'm go ahead and end this post now before it gets to sill...

Satan, Showtime, and Zappa: Hey!! Were not done!!

Zappa: Now i was thinkin' we could stop by red lobster before the concert.

Satan: Red Lobster!? Nah... how about Subway?

Showtime: I'd prefer Papa John's mysel...

SHUT UP!!... *ahem* buh-bye and peace, man...

Stalkz

08-31-2004, 07:09 AM

Wow! Is this your first time in this forum because campbell and I have been writing for awhile now for a while now that Christianity is far from blind faith. The Bible is what seperates Christianity from all religions. It was inspired by God. Prove the Bible wrong and you might have a case... but that will not happen... to save time click the link in my signiture. As a matter of fact, rather than prove it wrong myself, I'll show you where it proves itself wrong.

Very early in the bible, it says that God created Adam and Eve, then later it says that God created Adam, then Adam wandered around and was all sad and God was all "Thats wack he shouldn't be alone" and God took his rib and made Eve.

Then Adam and Eve had children. (this part everyone knows and uses all the time). Kane and Abol both got married and had kids. Even though they were the only people in existance other than their parents.

The Gnostics tried to explain how kane and abol got married, but it was just mystical bullshit like the rest of gnosticism.

I've read the bible. Don't talk down like I haven't.

The bible is a huge collection of previously written books on the idea of Christianity, many of which contradict eachother and are from what were different parts of Christianity. The Book of Revelation was replaced by another book that explained a similar thing but COMPLETELY differently. It's not in hte bible, hence it's just bullshit now. So if that made the bible rather than Revelation, Revelation would be bullshit now and the other one would be the "true" one. Your entire belief system is based on a bunch of somewhat random, unrelated books thrown together and changed variously throughout the years.

Personally I don't like Judaism OR Christianity, but I respect Judaism more in the sense that, Jews don't eat pig. Christians do unless they're vegeterian. However, The Torah and The Old Testament are the same book. So Christians aren't supposed to eat pig or anything else listed as bad in the old testament. To defend themselves they say "We follow the New Testament". Now, had this been true, that'd be fine. But it's not true, because if it were you would have to disband the entire story of creation, gays wouldn't be bad (that's in the old testament with the pig), etcetera.

StonerBill

08-31-2004, 08:51 AM

Everyone is a sinner, not just non-believers. Christians sin as well.

Oh, and I don't follow Jesus just to get into Heaven. I yern for a relationship with Him. Heaven is a reward for serving Him. I long to have a better relationship with Him. He fills that void in our lives. It's more than Heaven. It's peace and satisfaction, it's love and that warm fuzzy fealing. It's everything I need in my life. Again, Heaven is just a reward.more reason to show why religion is a tool to make life happier. Children have imaginary friends for the same reason. fills the void. a freind who doesnt have complex thought processes, they jsut love you. a friendship slut.

and so your saying that if you were going to hell, it was definate (hypothetically), that you would continue to be a good christian for the decades before going to an eternal life of pain and suffering? One of the other regulars conceded that they wouldnt. it mgiht have been you. or brock.

bandit28

08-31-2004, 03:56 PM

Where are you pulling your questions from? Hypothetically? I AM A CHRISTIAN. What part of this don't you understand? You are nothing but a deamon in desguise. Your questions are child like and do not contain any thought process. What if you knew I was right but decided you still wouldn't follow Christ because you prefer to live your life the way you wanted to? What would you do then? Oh wait, you are doing that now. Get off me deamon, you have nothing I want or need.

On another note, what about Chrisitianity harms you so? What about it makes you so disgusted? Is it the love, compassion, forgivness, bond between humans? Yeah you're right, those are such vile qualities. I laugh at you deamon, I expected more of a challenge, go away now, you are not wanted here.

GanjaPrince

08-31-2004, 05:34 PM

I bow at all your lotus feet, for you are all christ!

Let us dance in ecstasy with god, for she is playful and christ is laughing up there on the cross, look closer, closer, and you will see a wink and smile, because he gave everything to humanity, he gave his body, nails in his hands while he cried out for thier forgiveness, what compassion! He surrendered totally to god, and gave it all for the dharma, he went beyond all suffering like his buddy the buddha, did his part, because the reward of surrender to the divine is worth any damage to the small ego that deserves love and compassion but don't get caught in it, the body, the mind, these things will pass and fade away, you shine... you shine like a crazy diamond!

love love love love, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeee

OMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

Praise be all!

campbell34

08-31-2004, 08:22 PM

As a matter of fact, rather than prove it wrong myself, I'll show you where it proves itself wrong.

Very early in the bible, it says that God created Adam and Eve, then later it says that God created Adam, then Adam wandered around and was all sad and God was all "Thats wack he shouldn't be alone" and God took his rib and made Eve.

Then Adam and Eve had children. (this part everyone knows and uses all the time). Kane and Abol both got married and had kids. Even though they were the only people in existance other than their parents.

The Gnostics tried to explain how kane and abol got married, but it was just mystical bullshit like the rest of gnosticism.

I've read the bible. Don't talk down like I haven't.

The bible is a huge collection of previously written books on the idea of Christianity, many of which contradict eachother and are from what were different parts of Christianity. The Book of Revelation was replaced by another book that explained a similar thing but COMPLETELY differently. It's not in hte bible, hence it's just bullshit now. So if that made the bible rather than Revelation, Revelation would be bullshit now and the other one would be the "true" one. Your entire belief system is based on a bunch of somewhat random, unrelated books thrown together and changed variously throughout the years.

Personally I don't like Judaism OR Christianity, but I respect Judaism more in the sense that, Jews don't eat pig. Christians do unless they're vegeterian. However, The Torah and The Old Testament are the same book. So Christians aren't supposed to eat pig or anything else listed as bad in the old testament. To defend themselves they say "We follow the New Testament". Now, had this been true, that'd be fine. But it's not true, because if it were you would have to disband the entire story of creation, gays wouldn't be bad (that's in the old testament with the pig), etcetera.
Well you know the bible talks about a flood that covered the whole earth. Not many people believe that, but since you know so much. Why are they finding pillar lava on top of Mount Ararat? You see pillar lava is formed when a volcanic vent is submerged below water. The funny part about it, is Mount Ararat is over 17,000 feet high. Well if that is the case, either someone carried thousands of pounds of pillar lava up there, or there really was a world wide flood. Which means that bible story probably was true. You know I work in a hospital where from time to time you see people dieing of lung cancer. The sad part about it, is even when they are in pain and wareing an oxygen bottle they still want a smoke. You know they really did not have to die that way, but that was their choice. It's the same choice people on these posts are making. Jesus stated that if someone would search for Him with all their heart and mind, they would surely find him. But it's just like that guy looking for a smoke. He really doesn't want to die, but he would do nothing to prevent it. I think for many, after the first 10,000 years in Hell, they will realize the mistake they made, but it will be to late. If these new descoveries which are validating the bible are true, you would think more people would investigate them, considering their possible eternal adress.

Showtime/Redneck-Bud

08-31-2004, 08:36 PM

but i don't smoke...

Stalkz

08-31-2004, 10:51 PM

Well you know the bible talks about a flood that covered the whole earth. Not many people believe that, but since you know so much. Why are they finding pillar lava on top of Mount Ararat? You see pillar lava is formed when a volcanic vent is submerged below water. The funny part about it, is Mount Ararat is over 17,000 feet high. Well if that is the case, either someone carried thousands of pounds of pillar lava up there, or there really was a world wide flood. Which means that bible story probably was true. You know I work in a hospital where from time to time you see people dieing of lung cancer. The sad part about it, is even when they are in pain and wareing an oxygen bottle they still want a smoke. You know they really did not have to die that way, but that was their choice. It's the same choice people on these posts are making. Jesus stated that if someone would search for Him with all their heart and mind, they would surely find him. But it's just like that guy looking for a smoke. He really doesn't want to die, but he would do nothing to prevent it. I think for many, after the first 10,000 years in Hell, they will realize the mistake they made, but it will be to late. If these new descoveries which are validating the bible are true, you would think more people would investigate them, considering their possible eternal adress.
The world was a VERY different place many years ago, things were changing and growing and such. It's very possible that there was a huge flood. But there's no possible way for one boat to house every single species in existance, they would have to be shipped from all different parts of the world, and at that time it would've taken MANY years because of the lack of ability and the fact that many of the places weren't discovered yet.

Genesis

09-01-2004, 12:19 AM

....em...no i can't say i have read the link thing...sorry

ah gangaprince i see what you mean. i know a bit better what a fundamentalists is now ..i did a bit of looking up.

but hang on a minute....god created man and woman....thus he created possibility. so if he created homosexuals how can he hate them and want them eradicated? it doesn't make sense. from where any-man stands it does look like the mindset of a bigot and a hypocrite because god loves all of creation and wants us in turn to love all of creation so we may become a better person. how can we be truely good if we hate people for a reason like being homosexual? it's like hating someone for having dark hair or pale skin and hating the sky for not being pink. it doesn't make sense or seem right or good.

bandit28

09-01-2004, 02:21 AM

so if he created homosexuals how can he hate them and want them eradicated?God doesn't create homosexuals, you choose to be homosexual. Also, God doesn't hate anyone. What's with your lack of inteligence here? Pick up The Bible and actualy read it.

Showtime/Redneck-Bud

09-01-2004, 02:35 AM

Bandit: "you choose to be homosexual."

To quote/paraphrase Bill Maher...

"Who just wakes up one day and says to themselves, 'Hm... i wonder if there's a better way to get beat up every day in high school'?"

Genesis

09-01-2004, 04:56 AM

Oh of course I forgot…no Christian actually reads the bible these days. Just the select few… I believe we have a word for that judgement. Anyway. I would say before you jump but clearly careful thought escapes your patient disposition. The question was being put to those who thought gays a sin. Mainly the fundamentalists. Someone mentioned the hatred of gays and how "The Bible clearly states that being gay is a sin against God(He destroyed cities for it)". When in actual fact…it doesn’t.

. The question was to those who think gays were a sin….and a lot of Christians do think they are a sin based on the bible so no it was not a lack of intelligence but a lack of understanding as to why people saw them as a sin if god loved everything. This coupled with the fact that our understanding of homosexuality is different to biblical times and much is being restudied recently on the matter of “anti-homosexuality”. I think, from what memory serves, it spoke out against sexual abuse, carnal knowledge without consent by both heterosexuals and homosexuals alike.

Leviticus 18:22 says,
"You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female. It is an abomination.

Leviticus 20:13 says,
"If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood guiltiness is upon them."

Romans 1:26-27:
"For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men . . ." (Revised Standard version)

2 Peter 2:4-6

“For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but delivered them, drawn down by infernal ropes to the lower hell, unto torments, to be reserved unto judgment: and spared not the original world, but preserved Noe (Noah), the eighth person, the preacher of justice, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly. And reduced the cities of the Sodomites, and of the Gomorrhites, into ashes, condemned them to be overthrown, making them an example to those that should after act wickedly.”

Jude 7 depicts the activity as "gross immorality" and going after "strange flesh." Peter wrote that Lot was "oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men," and "by what he saw and heard...felt his righteous soul tormented day after day with their lawless deeds." These people were "those who indulged the flesh in its corrupt desires and despised authority" (2 Peter 2:7-10).

In 1 COR 6:9-11,paul gives a list of those who would not receive the kingdom of god which includes, drunkards, revilers, and robbers, adulterers, sexual perverts, theimmoral, idolaters. Sexual perverts was translated from two words. Malakos and arsenokoitus[or male prostitute] was possibly meant to refer to homosexuality in males.It appears that pauls opinions of homosexuality were not very kind at all. Timothy, Jude and peter make three other references. Gods punishes heretics and non believers in jude and peter and there is condemnation of male sex slaves.It was a sin in so far that in such biblical times, such homosexual behaviours were demonstrations of abusive sexual practices believed to be associated with the aforementioned idolatry and cultism.

That’s all it basically had to say on the matter of homosexuality and even then the case for condemnation is not a strong one. And if you are of course a biblical literalist there’s nothing but prejudice in my opinion against those who are born with sexual predisposition towards their own sex. That’s hardly fair now is it.The references in the scriptures to homosexuality never mention lesbianism but merely sexual relations between two men. They object on three grounds: unnaturalness, and prostitution [the third eludes me]

Genesis

09-01-2004, 04:57 AM

christians follow the teachings of god and many christians believe god hated gays. i wanted to know how that was possible if he loved everything. its not lack of intelligence on my part its the belief structure of others

as to the matter of homosexuality and belief structures this was just a quick breeze over i made a while back on the matter of homosexuality. a bit generalistic but its just skimming the surface.

here's the link http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_fixe.htm (http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_fixe.htm)

The most conservative view,
typically promoted by the conservative religious groups, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, etc.

"what is homosexuality?" cause?

Something that one does; a chosen lifestyle.

"cause?"

Multiple causes including: poor parenting, sexual molestation during childhood, perhaps demon possession. Addiction traps them in the lifestyle.

The most liberal view,
Typically followed by religious liberals, gays, lesbians, mental health professionals and human sexuality researchers.

"what is homosexuality?" "cause?"

Something that one is; an unchosen orientation.

"cause?"

Genetically predetermined plus some unknown environmental factor in early childhood which "turns on" the gene or genes.

But as regards the point about it being a choice…studies by NARTH have come to this conclusion in a thread entitled “the three myths about homosexuality” that :

There is no scientific research indicating a biological or genetic cause for homosexuality. Biological factors may play a role in the predisposition to homosexuality. However, this is true of many other psychological conditions.

Research suggests that social and psychological factors are strongly influential. Examples include problems in early family relationships, sexual seduction, and sense of inadequacy with same-sex peers, with resulting disturbance in gender identity. Society can also influence a sexually questioning youth when it encourages gay self-labeling.

now realise this is only one side of the spectrum and I would invite anyone to disprove it because I feel it is as natural and predetermined at birth as heterosexuality. i also believe god created man and with that possibilities and being heterosexual or homosexual is two of these possibilities. So if anyone has any other links to research that’d be class just to even out the aspect as i've never researched it in depth as i have never really had a need to for the previous mentions.

that was my ideas behind the post i made bandit. i wanted to know how it was that god apparently hated gays and where it was directly quoted that he said that. i have read the bible and only come across the above paragraphs but do not remember god stateing it himself in the bible. so i was only asking. a little bit more decorum would probably be a bit better next time. all you had to do was ask where i was going with the statement. not accuse me of not even reading the book the christian faith follows and learns from and asking about my supposed lack of intelligence. it was hardly necessary.

[apologies for double posts but i typed too much]

StonerBill

09-01-2004, 05:03 AM

bandit, my question on teh page before was not child like, it was very important, and a very significant issue, AND was aimed at all christians here in the forum. but as all you christians and unlike all us atheists, you love to decide not to answer questions if you dont want to eh. I beleive it was your reasoning that avoidance is giving in, bandit? I needed ot use the word hypothetically in order to fit in with your christian logic ('i know im not going to hell so i dont have to answer that')

bandit28

09-01-2004, 07:42 AM

Leviticus 18:22 says,
"You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female. It is an abomination.That seems pretty clear to me. Homsexuality is a perversion created by man. As for anyone saying here that God hates homosexuals, I think you should read what was said again. I fully believe God is capable of hating the sin, but never the sinner. Can a person that has commited murder enter the kingdom of God? I believe so, when he accepts Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior and asks forgivnes for his sins. No, God does not hate anyone, just the sin they commit.

Research suggests that social and psychological factors are strongly influential. Examples include problems in early family relationships, sexual seduction, and sense of inadequacy with same-sex peers, with resulting disturbance in gender identity. Society can also influence a sexually questioning youth when it encourages gay self-labeling.

now realise this is only one side of the spectrum and I would invite anyone to disprove it because I feel it is as natural and predetermined at birth as heterosexuality. i also believe god created man and with that possibilities and being heterosexual or homosexual is two of these possibilities.
Do you see what you just said? Your researchers believe that homosexuality is not somethign you are born with. Then you ask anyone able to do so to disprove it....Then you go back on theinformation you posted and say that you feel people are born homosexual. God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

Finaly, to those so called Christians out there that you run into preaching hate. Send them here, I would love to have a word with them. People like that are frauds and give real Christians a bad name. I promise you those souls are misguided and lack the proper information. Likely they are lead by a selfish person that teaches hate. These people are not Christians. I think Phelps Group is the one that usualy comes to mind when these things come up. I have seen vidios with them holding signs that say "God hates fags". I had been there I would have put my Bible in their face and asked them to show me. I would have called the deamon for who he was and challenged him. Please don't be like so many others and make an assumption on mosty Christians. Thats no different than saying "all blacks do this..." or "all mexicans eat this....". You see where I am coming from?

Finaly, to StonerBill. No your question was not a good one. I can't think hypothetically on this subject because I for onebelieve God to be real and Jesus died for my sins. There have been to many miracles in my life to believe other wise. Here is an idea StonerBill....give up on me, because my faith is to strong for your snide comments and idiotic questions. When you have a genuine intrest in The Lord and are wanting to seek His offerings, then there are several peopel here including myself that can guide you. Until then, back off deamon.

campbell34

09-01-2004, 08:54 AM

but i don't smoke...
If you die without Jesus as your Saviour, you will be doing a lot of smoking.

Stalkz

09-01-2004, 09:37 AM

That seems pretty clear to me. Homsexuality is a perversion created by man. As for anyone saying here that God hates homosexuals, I think you should read what was said again. I fully believe God is capable of hating the sin, but never the sinner. Can a person that has commited murder enter the kingdom of God? I believe so, when he accepts Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior and asks forgivnes for his sins. No, God does not hate anyone, just the sin they commit.[/font][/color]
So then why the hell should I refrain from sinning? I'll just do whatever the fuck I want, and in the end I'll be all "Oh I accept jesus christ as my lord and savior and beg for your forgiveness. Omg I was so wrong lol I cant believe I did that. Let me into heaven :)" and all will be dandy.

WRONG.

Virtually every movement in the Christian faith is to save you from hell. You get baptized so you don't go to hell for original sin.

Christ was crucified to attone for all your sins.

God is all forgiving so he forgives all your sins.

But we still fucking go to hell.... God damn that jesus.... always lying. I tell ya.

bandit28

09-01-2004, 02:33 PM

Another uneducated person.
So then why the hell should I refrain from sinning? I'll just do whatever the fuck I want, and in the end I'll be all "Oh I accept jesus christ as my lord and savior and beg for your forgiveness. Omg I was so wrong lol I cant believe I did that. Let me into heaven http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif" and all will be dandy.
Wonder if people right before getting into a horrable deadly car wreck had time to ask for forgivness and invite Jesus into their lives? You don't know what today holds for you. Besides, if you are not serious about it, it won't happen.

Virtually every movement in the Christian faith is to save you from hell. You get baptized so you don't go to hell for original sin.
Wrong. Only one thing keeps you out of hell, thats Jesus. As far as getting baptized, that is just a tradition now to show others your new life.

Christ was crucified to attone for all your sins.

God is all forgiving so he forgives all your sins.
Yes, His death is the new contract and way for us to get into Heaven. However, if you deny Christ, then you will not enter The Kingdom of God. Also, God is all forgiving, but he is also the one that judges you. If you don't truely seek a relationship with Him, your life is lived then for yourslf and not Him. Again, He will only forgive you if you are truely and honestly asking for forgivnes.

But we still fucking go to hell.... God damn that jesus.... always lying. I tell ya.You go to hell because you deny Jesus. God will never damn Jesus and Jesus has never lied.

TheMistress

09-01-2004, 02:38 PM

By the large number of threads started to attack Christians and the huge volume of posts against Christians, I am compelled to ask, "Why? Why do so many deem it neccessary to attack the morals and beliefs of Christians?" Most will come to the defense of religions, and nonreligions that are not Christian based, but rarely does one come to the defense of Christians. There are many religions and beliefs that are much older than Christianity, but they are not attacked. A lot of what I read against Christianity is that it is old, or outdated. Seems to me that by that reasoning, no belief system beyond last year is worthy of believing. What do Christian bashers gain by thier assaults on Christians?
I went to a catholic school my entire life and because of all the bullshit that went on I now hate the religion. I don't hate catholics in general I just hate the religion....I would tell you what I mean by bullshit but it would take so long that don't have the patience. I especially hate the whole against gay marriage thing. Cousins can get special permission to be married but gay people cannot.....THIS MAKES ME SOOO MAD........Also just incase I HATE YOU MRS. SHEA ( my grade 12 religion teacher, i sincerely hope she dies.)

TrippinBTM

09-01-2004, 03:01 PM

Wrong. Only one thing keeps you out of hell, thats Jesus. As far as getting baptized, that is just a tradition now to show others your new life.
All dogs go to heaven. But all babies go to hell. Nice.

I have serious problems with any religion that says all babies are born full of "sin." Such a religion seems to hate people rather than love them, if it assumes everyone is just a sinning bag of disgustingness, rather than bearers of the Light of lights, even at birth, the time of innocence.

bandit28

09-01-2004, 03:19 PM

Who said babies go to hell? Every heard of the age of accountability? What's with all of you peope compaining about things that you don't understand? Perhaps if you actualy studied The Bible and learned it's contents, and you still felt like Christianity was wrong, then you could come in here and make a decent argument. But no, most of you come in here and say some of the most uninteligent things I have ever heard.

seamonster66

09-01-2004, 06:03 PM

was there no heaven before Jesus, just curious, never heard that adressed and you wrote that Jesus' death is a contract that allows Christians to get into heaven, that leaves millions of people heavenless who happened to live before 2,004 years ago.

Jozak

09-01-2004, 06:27 PM

To answere your question, I know in the Catholic Church we beleive those people can not be held responsible. (how can they be, they never knew who Christ was.) I am pretty sure they go to purgatory/heaven, either way, they aren't going to be damned to hell becasue they were born before Christ. (Everyone who is in purgatory will go to heaven, it's a purification place), but I don't know what other churches believe, its probably along those lines. I mean some people today still have never heard of Christ, and I don't think they can be held responsible either.

bandit28

09-01-2004, 07:36 PM

Actualy before Christ entry into Heaven required sacrafice.

Stalkz

09-01-2004, 10:13 PM

Oh well.

See ya in heaven then, homie.

.....From Hell.... ofcourse...

Genesis

09-02-2004, 01:11 AM

NARTH as I said is one side [of the conservatives]. It is the belief of other researchers that in fact homosexuality is “Something that one is; an unchosen orientation” and to add to that, the cause, researched by health professionals and sexuality researchers, is “Genetically predetermined plus some unknown environmental factor in early childhood which "turns on" the gene or genes”

Now that is two professionals offering an opinion.

Conversely…on the mater of it not being choice I offered a further study.

NARTH being conservative offers only one account of the study homosexuality. I would not ask the members of this forum to go blindly and not listen to the side of the opposition. In order to be objective I would urge anyone who does know something on the matter of homosexuality to come forward and state what they know. So bandit, I was asking for an objective opposition to the fact. It would be ignorant of me to offer one side without the other or at least asking for the other.

And I am no conservative. They are not “my” researchers by any stretch of imagination. How could they be when I believe that homosexuality is predetermined and genetic and not a faultering of the mind? Look to what I am saying.

I did not go back on anything. Why? Because I clearly stated “THIS IS ONLY ONE SIDE OF THE SPECTRUM” not to mention I also said “STUDIES BY NARTH HAVE COME TO THIS CONCLUSION IN A THREAD ENTITLES THE THREE MYTHS ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY”. The belief of NARTH is not my reasoning or belief at all.

But so as not to leave out my ACTUAL reasoning in all of this what I was doing was this.You said that homosexuality was choice. Another individual said it was not. I offered one side of the spectrum that says what you had said was not completely wrong or ignorant at all.

I do not share the belief that in fact homosexuality is choice. Nor do many researchers of the matter. I may not agree with that opinion that you have, but that does not mean I will not take into account research that might prove my beliefs wrong.

I admit though…disprove was too harsh and too biased a word and apologise for it. And in its stead I would like to say opposing research as it seems more fitting under the circumstances.

and yes. i think most will agree..god does not hate. he disapproves of sin but not the sinner as he gave us free will and knows its consequences.

as to the matter of gay marriage...of course they have a right to marriage outside of the church as within the church the sanctity of marriage is really between a man and a woman. i don't agree with not allowing homosexuals to marry at all. thats unfair. but within a chirch the belief structure of the church must be respected. just as the church should respect the right of marriage outside the church.

campbell34

09-02-2004, 08:38 AM

[QUOTE=Stalkz]So then why the hell should I refrain from sinning? I'll just do whatever the fuck I want, and in the end I'll be all "Oh I accept jesus christ as my lord and savior and beg for your forgiveness. Omg I was so wrong lol I cant believe I did that. Let me into heaven :)" and all will be dandy.

WRONG.

Virtually every movement in the Christian faith is to save you from hell. You get baptized so you don't go to hell for original sin.

Christ was crucified to attone for all your sins.

God is all forgiving so he forgives all your sins.

Well actually when you invite Christ into your life and you become born again Jesus will forgive you of your sins and you are then covered by His blood that He shed on the cross for you. You then live your life to honor God. But the way most people are today they would rather give Him the finger. I'm sure many on this post would of loved to of been one of the first to pound the nails into Christ hands. They do this symbolically every day on this Post.

campbell34

09-02-2004, 08:58 AM

So then why the hell should I refrain from sinning? I'll just do whatever the fuck I want, and in the end I'll be all "Oh I accept jesus christ as my lord and savior and beg for your forgiveness. Omg I was so wrong lol I cant believe I did that. Let me into heaven :)" and all will be dandy.

WRONG.

Virtually every movement in the Christian faith is to save you from hell. You get baptized so you don't go to hell for original sin.

Christ was crucified to attone for all your sins.

God is all forgiving so he forgives all your sins.

But we still fucking go to hell.... God damn that jesus.... always lying. I tell ya.
Well actually to get to heaven you need to ask Christ into you life an you will be born again. You will then be covered by His shed blood which will take away your sins. Then you try to live a life which would honor God. But actually, I think most people would rather give God the finger. After the first 10,000 years in hell, they might realize the mistake they made, but it will be to late. Oh well, time to start the next 10,000 years of giving God the finger. Boy you sure showed Him. How shall they neglect so great a salvation?

campbell34

09-02-2004, 09:12 AM

Stalkz

09-02-2004, 09:52 AM

Like me.

Since I'm Satanist and all. Well, used to be. I still am at heart, but I can't take such pretentious snobs. They're as bad as Christians sometimes.

So I guess I'd sum it up to say I'm Hedonist, which is based off Satanism, but isn't full of such dickheads.

Genesis

09-02-2004, 08:15 PM

are satanists extremest compared to hedonists or something?

i don't know much about satanism to be honest. i tried looking for books on it but only found things like wikan stuff and im not sure if that is part of satanism[if thats the right term]

john cox

09-02-2004, 10:50 PM

If you will excuse me; could not get through all the venom. Most appear directed at those trying to calm you zealots (of all sides) down like Dan.
The more obnoxious you become, the more you disprove your views. As for me I was raised Southern Baptist in Okla. As a young child questions arose that my elders could not answer to my Heart. "Why are there no black people in church?" "Well blacks are not completely human so they go to their osn churces. "If God created such a wonderfull world out of love,how could he distroy whole cities, or ask a father to kill his own son?" No answer to that. So I began to look within to understand. I am not a Christian, but I admire Jesus,
Mother Theresa, the Buddha, Jacob Boehm equally. Heresy?, maybe; but I do not have hatred in the guise of Love for those of any religion or philosphy; or for none. All the 'proves' profided will not change anyone's mind. Only the heart can know it's own truths. Perhaps looking inward would have more affect then attacking others? JnanaJohnCox.