Tien??

[G.NiN.]

hi. i'm new here so if i'm asking something that's already been discussed - i'm very sorry. also if my question is stupid - sorry. i haven't read too much about taoism but i guess i know a few things. i've read stuff from diferent places and books, and there is this one thing that i recently noticed and isn't very clear to me. it's not something of great importance (i guess), but i will keep trying to find an answer untill i get things straight :)
so can anyone tell me what you know or what is your own oppinion about the concept of 'Tien'. as i understand it can be 'Heaven' but as i also understand Taoism, that wouldn't be quite appropriate. or would it? i don't know. i've also read somewhere that it can be translated as ' Nature' or something of that sort.
so how can anyone explain to me the term 'Heaven' in The Tao Te Ching?

thanks

[slinklikegroove]

I don't see Heaven being discussed in the literal sense, I see it being discussed in more of a figurative sense. When I read the Tao Te Ching I try to take it all in, in a strangely vague way. As I'm reading I try and take a step back and look not at the words but what the words are attempting to convey. The Tao Te Ching has been translated and it is completely impossible for there to be a perfect Chinese - English translation. I would think some is lost in translation even though great writers have translated the text. Many try and keep the cadence of the original Chinese poetry, some are too wordy, some are too hasty. I take everything with a grain of salt when I read it. I have 4 versions of the translated english text, all of em are different and you get a better idea of what is trying to be conveyed by reading different versions of the book.

[G.NiN.]

i know that u r right and that i shouldn't think of stuff like that (and i don't even find it that important either) but it still seemed a bit odd.
actually when i first read a few parts of the book, and not knowing as much as i know now about it, i found the whole thing a lot more beautiful. now i know i'm going in the wrong way but i don't know exactly why and it's hard to look at it the same way and #%%#@ http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/mad.gifhttp://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/mad.gif....bla blabalbal .....i don't know if u can unerstand me so i'lll stop now http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

thanks again

[slinklikegroove]

I wouldn't say that I'm right. There are many ways you can interoperate that. I don't think there is a right or a wrong, it just IS. The book IS beautiful. It is simple yet profound. What is troubling you with it now? What has changed for you as you have given more thought to the material?

[BlackBillBlake]

so can anyone tell me what you know or what is your own oppinion about the concept of 'Tien'. as i understand it can be 'Heaven' but as i also understand Taoism, that wouldn't be quite appropriate. or would it?
If you look at the I Ching you'll find numerous references to 'heaven. In my view it stands for the creative principle.

[slinklikegroove]

i haven't gotten around to the i ching yet and i'll be picking up a copy of it this week. are there any obscure/semi-obscure books you think i should look into?

[BlackBillBlake]

Can't think of any off hand. As for the I Ching, I recommend the translation by Richard Wilhelm - it has all the subsidiary material like the Great Treatise included which is omitted from most editions. A simpler, but good traslation, is by Thomas Cleary, but this gives only the basic text.

[dirtydog]

hi. i'm new here so if i'm asking something that's already been discussed - i'm very sorry. also if my question is stupid - sorry. i haven't read too much about taoism but i guess i know a few things. i've read stuff from diferent places and books, and there is this one thing that i recently noticed and isn't very clear to me. it's not something of great importance (i guess), but i will keep trying to find an answer untill i get things straight :)
so can anyone tell me what you know or what is your own oppinion about the concept of 'Tien'. as i understand it can be 'Heaven' but as i also understand Taoism, that wouldn't be quite appropriate. or would it? i don't know. i've also read somewhere that it can be translated as ' Nature' or something of that sort.
so how can anyone explain to me the term 'Heaven' in The Tao Te Ching?

thanksAllan Watts once wrote a book titled, "This Is It." I'm now going to mangle and damage his insight, but the basic idea I got out of it was as follows.
What you see is what you get. This is it. Look around you. This is your universe, or your corner of it. It is not supernatural. It is here and now. It is all there is and there is nothing else. It is banal and disappointing, miraculous and complex beyond anyone's comprehension. It is the product of a god who is everywhere about us but can never be found. Deal with it.

I hope I haven't answered your question.

[dirtydog]

i haven't gotten around to the i ching yet and i'll be picking up a copy of it this week. are there any obscure/semi-obscure books you think i should look into?Thus Spoke Zarathustra, by Friedrich Nietzsche, recommended. Only problem is, it's not in the least obscure.

The i ching is the attempt of semi-learned orientals to build a philosophy on a foundation of six digit binary numbers. Well, who am I to knock it, I mean, if it works for you, okay, it works for you. It's not for me to say that it's better than, or worse than, two dice, or a roulette wheel, or a palm reader. Whatever gets you through the night.

Also not obscure is Be Here Now by Ram Dass, Lama Foundation,1973. But this guy is pure, and an ordinary jerk off artist like myself can't deal with it. Ram Dass is talking about doing really heavy spiritual work here. It's simple in some ways but he's not talking about the easy path here, he's talking raja yoga, total dedication. He's talking (page 102)
EXCEPT YE BE CONVERTED AND BECOME AS LITTLE CHILDREN, YE SHALL NOT ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.
so like I say, I'm not pure enough to deal with that right now, but it sounds like you're a serious seeker. Go for it.

[BlackBillBlake]

Neither Nietzche or Alan Watts were really taoists.


The i ching is the attempt of semi-learned orientals to build a philosophy on a foundation of six digit binary numbers.

With the I Ching, one has to see the difference between the underlying mathematical structure on one hand, and the fact that it is also a book of 'wisdom teachings'. After 30 years of using and reading it regularly, I can testify that the wisdom is very very deep, and seemingly has layers and layers of meaning which are almost inexhaustible.

Tradition holds that the manin parts of the Ching were written down by King Wen and his son, the Duke of Chou. Niether were scholars, semi-learned or otherwise, but warrior kings.
To describe the later confucian comentators as 'semi-learned' is merely cultural prejudice.

Nice try at defining Tao BTW - keep trying, eventually the mind will give it up.

[dirtydog]

Thanks, Black Bill.

Like I say, I don't have any special insight, I'm just another wing nut trying to get by.

I suspect that anyone who is described as a warrior king has used a lot of threats, intimidation and slave labour to get his castle built, in a feudal society. That would apply to China, Japan, Europe and a lot of other places. If you successfully steal enough from lots of people, you will be considered wise.

As for Tao, or unnameable essence, I wouldn't try to define it. Sit long enough by the side of a glacier and you will hear the wind.

[BlackBillBlake]

Read the story of Wen and Chou before you leap to conclusions.

But it's only a tradition anyway - no one actually knows the origin of the Ching. It had existed for a long time prior to being written down.
Some, Terrence McKenna for example, believe the Ching is actually only a fragment of something else, a larger system,which has come down to us.

Sit long enough by a glacier and you'll most likey freeze.

[Birmingham]

tien = heaven / sky

tien is the long male; earth is the enduring female. long and enduring because they don't exist for themselves. together, i call them the world.

[rocsolid]

the concept of heaven a la tao te ching is not some all happy no shit palce the way christians view it, it is simply the other side of life, the stuff you cant see often, the energy, i guess wherever all the ghosts go, its just the supernatural part of the universe( the absolute is trying to know itself, it created polarity, so if theres a natural side of the universe its going to need an opposite)