Reflections, what do you believe causes people to be transexual/transgender?

[Bunbury]

sex is physical body, gender is mental, basically its who you are, is that fair?
S

I'd say so. There are strong arguments to suggest that gender is socially and culturally constructed and completely external to the individual. I wouldn't go that far, for a number of reasons, one of which is the fact that transsexuals exist at all.

Transsexuality remains unexplained (and don't we know it :rolleyes: ), but the most convincing explanation I've ever heard is connected with the fact that all foeti (whether chromosomally XX or XY) start out female. Male characteristics apparently come about in XY individuals as a result of two hormonal triggers: one of these configures the brain, the other the body. Transsexuals receive only one of these triggers. Male-to-Female transsexuals are XY, so would be expected to receive both triggers, but the first fails and the second does not. Result: XY chromosomes, female brain, male body. Female-to-Male transsexuals are XX, so would be expected to receive neither trigger. However, they receive the first but not the second. Result: XX chromosomes, male brain, female body.

If this explanation works, then our brains are wired to be a certain way, regardless of how we are brought up. Evidence which would seem to support this includes examples of intersex children for whom a sex was chosen at birth - an appalling occurrence, when you think about it. In some cases the wrong choice was made, and these children grew up transsexual.

I'm not saying that the above is the answer, just that it seems to work for me. I'm not a doctor, just someone who's spent the thick end of twenty years struggling to understand what it's all about. :confused:

I do seem to have gone off on one a bit. Sorry about that - I hope it's OK.

Thanks for starting up this section, and for really looking at the definitions. We need that, all of us. :)

Peace,

Bunbury.

PS - There are, incidentally, instances in which XX individuals receive both triggers and develop as male, and in which XY individuals receive neither trigger and develop as female. The actress Jamie Lee Curtis is an example of the latter case. In neither of these situations is the individual transsexual - it's a side issue, and I just mentioned it here as a matter of interest. :)

[TreeFiddy]

Wow...thanks for sharing, Bunbury! I'd never heard that theory before...I wanted to do a biology project last year on transgendered people but my teacher said there was too little information on it to really study :(. That theory still would be an interesting topic to cover, though.

[Samhain]

discuss on here what you believe the causes could be or ask questions! I will be adding a poll soon!
S

[Samhain]

With permission from Bunbury I have added a poll to this thread
S

[mynameiskc]

isn't there something about the amount of testosterone that crosses the placenta to the foetus having a huge effect on their development as well? my mother has higher than normal testosterone levels for a woman. so do i, so does my little sister. we all put on muscle super fast and gain weight very quickly, too. my mother's sister had to be treated for too much testosterone, though how and why i can't recall because they were never really close. my husband always likes to say that he married a man with female plumbing and he's thrilled for it. my little sis is very much the same way. chromasomally scpeaking, we're all woman. we're very nearly ideal women in some societies, with very exagerated female traits: large breasts, narrow waists, curvy hips, perfect skin. makes me think of that house episode, but without the testes.

[Samhain]

isn't there something about the amount of testosterone that crosses the placenta to the foetus having a huge effect on their development as well? my mother has higher than normal testosterone levels for a woman. so do i, so does my little sister. we all put on muscle super fast and gain weight very quickly, too. my mother's sister had to be treated for too much testosterone, though how and why i can't recall because they were never really close. my husband always likes to say that he married a man with female plumbing and he's thrilled for it. my little sis is very much the same way. chromasomally scpeaking, we're all woman. we're very nearly ideal women in some societies, with very exagerated female traits: large breasts, narrow waists, curvy hips, perfect skin. makes me think of that house episode, but without the testes.
however i know some very masculine women that would never want to became physically male and I am a very femine guy, that wants to stay a guy and the transexual male to females I know have mostly been very manly men, like driving racing cars and have been in the army, so I guess having a higher level of testosterone, may not make someone a transexual in its self- as you may already realise
So I wonder what the crunch point is, from masculine woman to a woman who feels like they are a man and vice-versa, if that makes any sense
S

[TreeFiddy]

Hmmmm...

I've never been fond of the idea that personal trauma affects sexuality/gender idenity. Just my two cents...


So I wonder what the crunch point is, from masculine woman to a woman who feels like they are a man and vice-versa, if that makes any sense
SWell I guess it's different for everyone...some people might have other parts of their personality that don't directly have anything to do with gender identity, but might make a person more open to the idea of actually feeing like the opposite gender/getting sex-reassignment surgery.

[Bunbury]

I think that's quite a hard thing to quantify. :confused: There is a very definite difference between being masculine and being male, and between being feminine and being female. It's not always easy (or indeed possible) to tell from the outside, but I really think it's a different feeling. Samhain, your feminine male friend, who still considers himself male, seems to suggest that it's possible to have some of the trappings of one gender without being it. Tomboys are another example - they may behave in very male ways, and identify better with boys, but for the most part they still call themselves female. I'm not sure that there is a cut-off point - I'm going to stick my neck out and say that I don't think the difference between a feminine/masculine individual and a female/male individual is actually a continuum. Obviously there are different degrees of masculinity/femininity, so in that sense it is, but I don't think that a very feminine man and an MtoF are even close to being the same thing. I would argue that we're dealing with two different situations, rather than one running into the other. Maybe gender and the trappings of gender behaviour/identity are sited in two different places in the brain... I'm getting out of my depth now, but this always happens. I hope what I've said makes sense. This language often fails me when I try to discuss these issues.

Peace,

Bunbury.

[honeyhannah]

I definately don't think it has anything to do with personal trauma, seriously doubt it has anything to with nurture(the way you're brought up). But I suppose it could be different for different people.

[Nair]

Two things really... Genes, or possibly things which some people end up being born with. The body develops to be one sex, but the brain stays another, or vice versa, is what I view as behind actual transsexuality. I am 99% certain that some people end up with a very much female brain, and male body or vice versa. However I think it's ALSO possible, to think one is transgendered mentally yet not be due to intense confusion. I definitely do see some people as being better off, with their sex changed, and do believe actual transgendered people exist... But I also believe a person who isn't actually transgendered mentally, can come to believe they are at times, out of intense confusion as well.

I've read of cases, where some FTMs identify as feminine males, and I've read the view that all MTFs are highly feminine, as just a stereotype. Very butch MTFs and very femme FTMs do exist apparently. So I definitely view the view of 'masculine=male', and 'feminine-female', as very flawed.

[Samhain]

Two things really... Genes, or possibly things which some people end up being born with. The body develops to be one sex, but the brain stays another, or vice versa, is what I view as behind actual transsexuality. I am 99% certain that some people end up with a very much female brain, and male body or vice versa. However I think it's ALSO possible, to think one is transgendered mentally yet not be due to intense confusion. I definitely do see some people as being better off, with their sex changed, and do believe actual transgendered people exist... But I also believe a person who isn't actually transgendered mentally, can come to believe they are at times, out of intense confusion as well.

I've read of cases, where some FTMs identify as feminine males, and I've read the view that all MTFs are highly feminine, as just a stereotype. Very butch MTFs and very femme FTMs do exist apparently. So I definitely view the view of 'masculine=male', and 'feminine-female', as very flawed.
yep well I am a very femine male, so I would class myself as transgendered, but not transexual, because I am comfortable with my body, my mind however is definatly more on the female septrum and most people I know agree with me and class me as a 'she' which i don't mind in the slightest
S

[Karissa_SC]

I agree that there are probably hormonal (especially intra-uterine) factors and anatomical differences in the brain (which may or may not arise from the influence of hormones). In my case, one of my testicles was undescended at birth, though it soon realized it wasn't an ovary and dropped down to be with it's "friend"<g>. That usually indicates some pre-natal hormone issue.


Even before I knew there *were* any differences between boys and girls besides hair length and clothing (this was in the 50's, so you didn't typically see men with long hair and clothing styles were less androgynous than today) I knew which I was *supposed* to be (or, as I see it now, really *was* in many respects). When I was about three or four, I was riding in the car with my parents and my father said "if you kiss your own elbow, you'll turn into a girl". This was *meant* to suggest a change for the worst, but for the rest of the trip and for a long time thereafter I nearly broke my neck trying to do it!

My wife, who as yet is not aware of "Karissa", has always said my thought processes were more like a woman's than a man's.

I wonder, though, if in the rush to find a "scientific" explanation we have neglected to explore the *spiritual* realm. I have thought much about it from this perspective, but I can't say I have any sound conclusions that can be verbalized. But, I do not think my situation is, ultimately, an "accident". I suspect the Goddess (or whatever term you prefer...I guess I really think of it as the force of the universe) has some things she wants me to learn (or, perhaps, unlearn).

I doubt I'll ever stop exploring the causality (physical and spiritual), but I hit a point a few years ago where it really didn't matter as much anymore. Instead, I just have this feeling of greater self-acceptance and am content to explore the path laid out before me. My questions seem to keep being answered in my own mind with some deep, resonating "om" that just says "it is" and "you are".

I'm not really satisfied with these words...maybe I'll come up with some better way to explain what are essentially emotions.

[a_rabid_pineapple]

I don't really know what causes people to be trans gendered or if we will ever know. Somehow I feel that it doesn't matter what causes it, somethings are just the way they are. What I do believe is that everyone should be happy with who they are. And if you're happy with who you are then why search for a cause? Well we are curious creatures aren't we? I'm persuaded to think that the causes are a combination of experiences, genetics, and spirituality.

[Samhain]

I don't really know what causes people to be trans gendered or if we will ever know. Somehow I feel that it doesn't matter what causes it, somethings are just the way they are. What I do believe is that everyone should be happy with who they are. And if you're happy with who you are then why search for a cause? Well we are curious creatures aren't we? I'm persuaded to think that the causes are a combination of experiences, genetics, and spirituality.
maybe it would be dangerous to find a cause, can you imagine the implications of knowing that a baby was transexual before they where born?
*shudders*
S

[Snowdancer]

I have visited this many times. Started an answer a couple of times. Each time I have concluded that I can't give a answer that doesn't sound either like new age spirituality or naive over simplification or possibly rationalization, perhaps dementia....
I have pondered , searched, meditated upon, questioned, researched. All just haven't given me an answer that I feel will be complete. I have concluded that the scientific, medical, psychological community doesn't so much get the cause(s) as much as they recognize that the fact that it is something that is in some ways treatable with a little effort, proper medication, & most times surgery. That is not to bad but isn't giving the answers to cause.

The other transgender people I know come from varied backgrounds, of different physical ability & challenge, different socialization. Each had their own path as far as realization, somewhat method, definitely style. Each to their own degree as well.

There are many commonalities too. Each feel that this is something that can't be repressed. Many became self loathing in their birth bodies & the ones that have been lucky enough to break free to their new bodies gain self respect & confidence. Most have gone through a stage of over compensation on each side of transition although more common before at some point in their lives.

Again none of this answers the question "Why?"

I know that many Native American beliefs & I guess some others believe that a T-Person has two spirits. Some who follow Eastern philosophies attribute this to the Yin Yang being different from the physical body. Those who believe in past life sometimes say that we haven't completed or perhaps are still living a life of the past that was the other gender than out bodies were given in this one.

One of the things that helped me wrap my mind around this was to stop asking why & accept that it is. I often over analyze & that gets in the way too often. That was one of the gifts my therapist gave me to help me in my journey & I believe that it is a common thing in the psychological community. That isn't to say that I have abandoned the search for why nor did she want me to we all need to soul search in our own way.

[Samhain]

Maybe theres a feeling that to find out why would provide a cure??
or to suggest that there is a cause would suggest that there is something wrong with being transexual, and to find out why would stop one from being transexual?

when theres nothing wrong with being transexual at all and one should just strive to be more completely about what one is?

so striving to the future is looking forward where as looking for a cause is looking back?

[honeyhannah]

To Karissa, and ignore me and I apologize if I'm being nosy, but do you plan on telling your wife at some point?

Also as a response to the other things written. In a way I think it may be genetic, but there is a spiritual something that either hasn't yet, or never will be discovered by science that I feel is at play, it is a physical and a mental thing. But I think of it in the same way that I think of certain mental illnesses, such as bipolar. That it is a spiritual component of a person that is not actually a problem, just something that we have been depleted of cultural resources to deal with/see appropriately. Like it is something that is inherently there with you/apart of you that can't be changed, but that can be adapted to, dealt with in a more efficient/appropriate way than society, as a whole has dealt with transexuality/trengendered.

Transexuality seems like something physical didn't take, while the mental did, but I still think there may be something spiritual about that.

As for transexuality, what did transexuals do/how did they live before surgery was available? Does anyone know if there was something they did that made their condition(not to sound like a travesty) more justified?

[Samhain]

So from reading this thread I gather many people feel that there is a spiritual quality/cause to being transexual, its interesting that I didn't include that as a poll option as usually spirituality is fore most in my mind.

and also many people feel that we may never fully find a cause but maybe this isn't as important as accepting one self for who you are?
S

[Karissa_SC]

As far as telling my spouse, I think the HRT will "force my hand" fairly soon. Every now and then I already get what seem to me to be "strange looks" when my shirt is off. Since I have no idea what her reaction will be, and I don't want to lose my daughter in a worst-case scenario, I'm putting it off as long as I can.

The question of whether or not transsexualism is a medical disorder brings up an issue many find uncomfortable, and that is whether or not health insurance should pay for hormones, electrolysis, GRS. I find many trying to straddle that fence: they don't want to be considered "sick" (even in the psychiatric sense) but they want insurance to pay for transition. Sorry, but you can't have it both ways.

Practically, this is moot for me, as my insurance wouldn't even consider paying. But, with that disclaimer, overall I think I'd rather have acceptance of us as a "natural" manifestation of human nature than stick insurance with the cost. Somehow, *most* people could buy the elements of transition, but you can't buy acceptance.

[Samhain]

I really have no right to say this Karissa and i will delete this post if you want me too, however in the long run your wife may be able to reach some kind of understanding, if she knows you told her because you wished to not because you had to.
I think theres some threads about relatives in this forum so you may want to have a look at them too
S

[Karissa_SC]

Oh, don't delete it. It's a valid point. In my case, my wife and I really have a platonic relationship...it's my daughter I care about.


If my wife and I reach an understanding, great. The main thing I want to postpone is *not* reaching that understanding and having her walk out with my daughter. The older she gets the more likely *she* will understand and have more input into her presence in my life.

The problem with "coming out" is there's no way to put that genie back in the bottle once it's out.

But, I really appreciate your concern. It's something I've been thinking about doing, and your input is valued.

[Samhain]

Oh, don't delete it. It's a valid point. In my case, my wife and I really have a platonic relationship...it's my daughter I care about.


If my wife and I reach an understanding, great. The main thing I want to postpone is *not* reaching that understanding and having her walk out with my daughter. The older she gets the more likely *she* will understand and have more input into her presence in my life.

The problem with "coming out" is there's no way to put that genie back in the bottle once it's out.

But, I really appreciate your concern. It's something I've been thinking about doing, and your input is valued.
well if the hrt is going to force your hand fairly soon, your wife may be less likely to react in a rash way, if she feels you where honest with her before you had to be, she may walk out if she feels you have been dishonest with her.
although sometimes these things are surprising, you may fiind out that she's already figured it out and was just waiting for you too tell her.
S

[clementinexo]

i don't think anything causes them to be transgender... i think they chose to be.

[Samhain]

i don't think anything causes them to be transgender... i think they chose to be.
I disagree with that completely, transexual people don't choose it anymore than people choose their sexuality.
transexuals may make choices like to have surgery or not, but actually being transexual isn't a choice.
you didn't choose to be a woman, well neither does a male to female transexual choose to be born into a mans body
S

[Bunbury]

i don't think anything causes them to be transgender... i think they chose to be.
Growing up transsexual is a horrific experience. I've done it and it nearly killed me. Why would anyone choose that?

[Samhain]

Growing up transsexual is a horrific experience. I've done it and it nearly killed me. Why would anyone choose that?
yeah I was going to say something along those lines, but being transgendered and not transexual, i thought it would be a bit of a judgement, but I'm glad someone made this point
S

[erzebet1961]

Maybe im stupid...but ...isnt it verry close to what causes peole to be born Gay ??

I honestly believe it is related to brain chemicals...or genetics...is not a choice at all...no one would choose to live amongst the hate and ridicule.

[Bunbury]

Maybe im stupid...but ...isnt it verry close to what causes peole to be born Gay ??I'm not sure the two are as closely related as all that. They spring from very different places.

I honestly believe it is related to brain chemicals...or genetics...is not a choice at all...no one would choose to live amongst the hate and ridicule.Quite.

[High Priest]

Maybe im stupid...but ...isnt it verry close to what causes peole to be born Gay ??

I honestly believe it is related to brain chemicals...or genetics...is not a choice at all...no one would choose to live amongst the hate and ridicule.

You're not stupid. What it comes down to though is that research 100% isn't certain of the cause. I'd say because of that, it's all speculation, which is why people should be open minded and understanding.

Please don't come up with the grand theory inductively or out of ignorance. I say ignorance because the idea of "choosing" to be transsexual is unrealistic. Ask me why I have spent $220+ a month on pills, plus more on clothing and such, and struggle with social acceptance, and face much more costly surgery? For fun? For attention? Give me a break. I can't think of a harder thing to go through... It's a situtation that pushes too many people to suicide.

[Wiyaka]

Just a general comment that is probably repeating what SnowDancer and others touched upon;
No matter what the cause of transsexuality the fact is those of us in the vast spectrum of gender variance have always been around. It's interesting to speculate on the cause and se shouldn't stop doing so, but bottom line we don't need to identify that cause to justify our existence, we have always been part of the diversity of humanity and will continue to be so. There's the tired phrase of being 'trapped in the wrong body' but actually we are trapped in the wrong culture, other so called primitive cultures recognized us as normal to how life is and gave us respect and honor for what we could contribute. As Good Hands Woman said "think primitive".
http://www.gender.org.uk/conf/trilogy/winkte.htm

[crud3w4re]

I try not to think of such things, but I just hope that I never am deceived by one, then again, I could probably tell.

[Innocent Angel]

`

[Envy]

I just can't sit around and say it happened because of a choice.

Why would anybody want to suffer so much? I know some people do choose it, but they do it to make the real ones look bad. (I've seen it before.)

I believe a person is born with it.

[gticharlie]

As do I. I didnt choose to be gay, hell somedays I wish I wasnt, but then I remember that there never was a choice. I like who I am.
I have dated transgendered women(all preop-which made it hotter) but I dont think it was mental, I think it was physical.

[Innocent Angel]

I just can't sit around and say it happened because of a choice.

Why would anybody want to suffer so much? I know some people do choose it, but they do it to make the real ones look bad. (I've seen it before.)

I believe a person is born with it.No way is it a choice. I'd give anything just to feel like a 'normal' person. I don't even particularly care what gender it is. Just for one day i'd love to know what it feels like to be an ordinary person, and not the freak that i feel i am.

Of course there are people that choose to change their bodies, for whatever reason. And while i really have nothing against those people, it does give off the impression that for everyone it's a choice. Changing your body, yes, that is a choice. But feeling trapped in the wrong body? No, i never chose that. And i wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. I really cant imagine a more horrible feeling in the world. Nobody would choose to feel so miserable, you'd have to be insane to do that. I know for a fact i was born like this, as ive always felt i was female, even from being a small child.

[Innocent Angel]

maybe it would be dangerous to find a cause, can you imagine the implications of knowing that a baby was transexual before they where born?
*shudders*
SWithout wishing to sound completely politically incorrect, im sure lots of people in my position, (And me also) would rather have been aborted than to be brought into this world with such a horrible condition.

I am in no way speaking for everyone here, but for me personally i would much rather have not been born at all than have to suffer this nightmarish existence.

Also, if the parents where open minded, and allowed the child to be born, something could be done about it a lot earlier. Like preventing the child from having to go through the nightmare of irreversable puberty.

I can only see being able to tell if a child is transsexual before birth as being a good thing. The unnecessary suffering of the individual would be prevented either way.