The Bible is true?

[PhanPhavorite]

I had someone trying to defend that the Bible is 100% accurate. I found this person did not know what they were talking about. It infuriates me to think that people believe everything that the Bible says.
Does anyone else agree?

[inbloom]

this was discussed in another topic. i agree, it's stupid to think that people would just so blindly believe in something so much, especially when they history of the book is kinda shaky.

[mynameiskc]

in certain respects it's handy for archeological mapping. i enjoy reading the biblical archeology review and the way they put ancient locations within the context of the bible. i like to compare these with other archeology magazines covering the same topic. though it's been a while, i've been too broke for a subscription recently.

[campbell34]

The Bible was inspired by God and is a 100% accurate. But you guys wouldn't know anything about this; because your too busy making negative comments about the Bible without any knowledge of it.

What do you know about the prophetic proof, the archaelogical proof, the scientifical accuracy in the Bible??


Proof of the Bible...

http://r-campbell34.tripod.com/proof

[Epiphany]

*Looks at Bible, reads about all the prophecies, sees the ones that have happend, sees the ones that are happening now, and knows the ones that have not yet come to pass*


Contrary to popular belief, Christians don't just blindly put faith into a book. They read the Bible and they feel the presence of God. They see the prophecies being fulfilled. That is why I find the statement about blind faith so amusing. Christians see their prayers being answered, they see miracles being performed in their lives. They talk to God, and God answers. If nothing ever happend, do you think people would continue to believe? If God's promises weren't fulfilled, then we wouldn't have Christians today.

[seamonster66]

I totally agree with you, i think some things are based on real events, but to actually believe adam made eve with a rib is moronic.

[campbell34]

I totally agree with you, i think some things are based on real events, but to actually believe adam made eve with a rib is moronic.
-God has never changed. The same God that is able to answer our prayers was the same God that created the universe and thus Adam and Eve. You look at God like He is human. Like He is confined to human capabilities. But in reality God is way above our abilities.

[mynameiskc]

I totally agree with you, i think some things are based on real events, but to actually believe adam made eve with a rib is moronic.
considering this story from a literary angle, i think it's sweet and pretty deep. god wants men and women to be companions dependent upon one another. how better to do this than to create them from one body? then, the choice of the rib is pretty nice touch, because it's from the region that protects his heart. pretty nice. i like it. do i buy it? not really.

[seamonster66]

And KC, I think yoiu have the right idea, stories with symbolism and morality that aren't really SUPPOSED to be taken literally.



Quote: The same God that is able to answer our prayers was the same God that created the universe and thus Adam and Eve


hahahahashahahaha

[freakwentflyer]

Good luck! As you can see from some of these posts, hard core bible beaters will keep you going in circles with twisted logic.

Try to take an intellectual walk down their path and you just find your shoes covered in dogma.
The stories of the bible are based on actual events so they see those connections as "proof".
All of the prophecies are inspired by events that continually happen through history, or are self fulfilling prophecies. So, nothing earth shattering in them.
I use to know the bible well, years ago. As at teen I planned to be a preacher.

[JohnnyX]

First you must understand how it was written...Is it the same book as it was when it was written? I say no. It was originally written in Hebrew and Greek. Since both of these societies relied on oral tradition, most of the stories were orally handed down and we know what happens there. Then it was rewritten and edited by the Vatican, OT and NT that is...the OT in Judaism pretty much hasnt changed. The Pope only wanted certain things in the final version of the BOOK so he threw many of the books out...and never to be seen again (why is this? I wonder). Pope Pious XIII I think it was. THEN it was adopted by the protestants and edited AGAIN! And since then has been rewritten and translated and edited a million times over. So if someone is trying to convince me that the BOOK is straight from the horses mouth, so to say, then they better do some detailed research cuz just telling me that you are right and I am wrong and will go to hell just isnt gonna cut it over here pal!

[campbell34]

JohnnyX,

Have you ever heard of the dead sea scrolls??

[seamonster66]

Just because fables are old does not make them inherently true. the story of Noah dates back to Egyptian times, Hammerabi's tale, does that make it any more likely to be true.....no.

When it comes down to it, the only way to believe that the stories are absolutely true is on faith.

I would like a creationist to explain why geologic time doesn't match up to the bibles timeline? Which one should I believe, one based on science, or one based on far fetched rather primitive stories, edited and re-edited for political purposes.


Each religion thinks there bible, or koran, or whatever else is absolutely true too. Guess what, only 1 can be correct, and its overwhelmingly likely that none are!

[LuciferSam]

First you must understand how it was written...Is it the same book as it was when it was written? I say no. It was originally written in Hebrew and Greek. Since both of these societies relied on oral tradition, most of the stories were orally handed down and we know what happens there. Then it was rewritten and edited by the Vatican, OT and NT that is...the OT in Judaism pretty much hasnt changed. The Pope only wanted certain things in the final version of the BOOK so he threw many of the books out...and never to be seen again (why is this? I wonder). Pope Pious XIII I think it was. THEN it was adopted by the protestants and edited AGAIN! And since then has been rewritten and translated and edited a million times over. So if someone is trying to convince me that the BOOK is straight from the horses mouth, so to say, then they better do some detailed research cuz just telling me that you are right and I am wrong and will go to hell just isnt gonna cut it over here pal! Precisely what I was getting at in a similar thread! The Bible, along with the religion tied to it, has gone through many a revision in its long history. The Old Testament was essentially taken from the Jews' scriptures, obviously, and the New Testament was compiled of scriptures hand-picked by the mainstream Church leaders, at the time they used it to counter their main competition, the Gnostic Christians (whom the Church was quick to stomp out of existance when it finally acquired power in the Roman Empire).

Even if any of the statistics campbell presents are true, they are still only circumstantial, and while they point to the very probable fact that many Bible stories are historically based, they do not prove the presumptuous idea that the Bible is completely infallible and complete fact, especially given the revisionist tendencies of Church history.

[JohnnyX]

Yes Ive heard of the DEAD SEA SCROLLS....but I also know that the books that were ousted from the vatican soon after the invention of the press when the pope decided that the bible was to be printed and distributed. After the disclusion of the lost books they were never to be seen again and their location has been kept a secret by the vatican. Why would these books be so secret? What didn't he want us to read? The bible was written by MEN not GOD!!!!! This is a fact. Not only that now the WORD OF GOD is written by a machine!!!! That is soooooooo HOLY! It is a book written by men who make mistakes so I take from it what I feel is useful to help me be a better person and to understand the culture of Hebrews and their Folklore and a picture of Palestine (Yes, Palestine) under the control of the Roman Empire. Not to mention the teachings of a very enlightened human being that I admire very much.

[JohnnyX]

"The Freedom of the Press belongs to those who own one."
-A.J. Liebling

[mynameiskc]

i think the bible has a very basic universality. there's carnality, brutality, morality and mythology. brilliant stuff that speaks to the very humanity of us all. our temptations, our fears, our desires and our needs. even a non-christian should read it, if only to understand where much of our western civilization's social standards come from. i think the bible is a brilliant collection of all sorts of wisdom and history of a cultural (in the end, our own culture). has anyone noticed that if you look at the 10 commandments from a cold, sensible viewpoint, following those basic rules makes for a very peaceful and satisfying life? it's true. the more i worked to follow those basic rules, the happier and more pleasant my life has become, once i got past the pride and not wanting to be told what to do.

[freakwentflyer]

Very true KC.

And I would add to those 10 commandment the Jesus quote (something he picked up from far eastern traders),- "do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

It's sad that Christians focus on the dogma. "Jesus died for your sins", "without accecpting Jesus as your saviour, you'll burn in hell" and all that insaine religious crap, instead of focusing on the real beauty of the life and teachings of Jesus as a way of living and treating others. I especially like the idea of the "holy ghost" living within us not so much as a "fact" but as a philosophy to explain a feeling of oneness with others. And I like the idea of baptism as a physical act to highten the symbolism of washing away ones guilt or sins of the past, in a way of self forgiveness.
I personally think that the real Jesus, didn't say "I am the way and the light". My guess is he was referring to the "holy spirit" within him. Feeling a oneness with all life, seems to be the best way of feeling a connection with the source of all life.
Throw away the "religion" and there is something for everyone in the bible.
Although you're right, there is much to learn about our history from the "religion" aspect as well.

[campbell34]

Yes Ive heard of the DEAD SEA SCROLLS....but I also know that the books that were ousted from the vatican soon after the invention of the press when the pope decided that the bible was to be printed and distributed. After the disclusion of the lost books they were never to be seen again and their location has been kept a secret by the vatican. Why would these books be so secret? What didn't he want us to read? The bible was written by MEN not GOD!!!!! This is a fact. Not only that now the WORD OF GOD is written by a machine!!!! That is soooooooo HOLY! It is a book written by men who make mistakes so I take from it what I feel is useful to help me be a better person and to understand the culture of Hebrews and their Folklore and a picture of Palestine (Yes, Palestine) under the control of the Roman Empire. Not to mention the teachings of a very enlightened human being that I admire very much.
-Can you be a little bit more specific??

What books are you talking about.... where did you get the reference of these books.... and where can i get the reference of these books?

Usually when i here this stuff it almost always turns out bogus. If it is the books that I am thinking of then they are occultic in nature.

[JohnnyX]

-Can you be a little bit more specific??

What books are you talking about.... where did you get the reference of these books.... and where can i get the reference of these books?

Usually when i here this stuff it almost always turns out bogus. If it is the books that I am thinking of then they are occultic in nature.
First...exactly what is your definition of occult? Is anything that is not written by and for christians occult? I know, according to christians, any other religion is bogus. Any information I give to you will be bogus so what's the point but there are some good reads here...
http://www.apologeticsinfo.org/papers/trustworthinessofthebible.html
http://home1.gte.net/deleyd/religion/bibleorigins.html
http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/batbible.html

So I suppose that all of these theologans, authors, priests and rabbis are all bogus. But why are you asking me? You have a computer do the research yourself if you are allowed to even question what you are told by the church.

[campbell34]

First...exactly what is your definition of occult? Is anything that is not written by and for christians occult? I know, according to christians, any other religion is bogus. Any information I give to you will be bogus so what's the point but there are some good reads here...
http://www.apologeticsinfo.org/papers/trustworthinessofthebible.html
http://home1.gte.net/deleyd/religion/bibleorigins.html
http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/batbible.html

So I suppose that all of these theologans, authors, priests and rabbis are all bogus. But why are you asking me? You have a computer do the research yourself if you are allowed to even question what you are told by the church.


I started to read a little of the Evolution of the Bible, which was one source you gave me, it was published in 1888 and it's author was Bronson C.Keeler. I got to tell you, he might of convince people the bible was not true back in 1888, but this excuse for serious study sure would get an F today. It first starts out telling us that the Old Testament was the work of astrologers. I know the old testament, and there is no mention of astrology. The first five books were written by Moses.

The new testament was written as an allegory on the annual apparent motion of the Sun, Moon and Stars, which was the basis of Sun worship, which looked upon the Sun as the visible representative of the great creative, hence the Sun of God. You have got to kidding me, this person is demented, there is no other explanation for making these statements, outside of being drunk out of his mind. I'm thinking this has got to be a joke, you can't base your spiritual conclusions on these kinds of writings.

"I have given also another story pictured in the old testament of Uranus as the Son of the Sun God, which must not be confounded with the above."-Bronson C.Keeler

I got news for you, Uranus is not mentioned in the old testament or the new testament, because William Herschel discovered it in 1781, long after the bible was written. I can't wait to read the other secret texts.

The new testament was written to show what should be rather than what was, or as a beacon light to lead man on to a better life. What is this guy talking about? What should be, is what happened. I give up, I can only deal with insanity for short periods of time. If you had been living back in 1888, this guy would of been trying to sell you a bottle of snake oil, claiming it cured everything from sore feet to cancer. Hope he's not the one your looking to for spiritual truth.

[Epiphany]

Very true KC.

And I would add to those 10 commandment the Jesus quote (something he picked up from far eastern traders),- "do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

It's sad that Christians focus on the dogma. "Jesus died for your sins", "without accecpting Jesus as your saviour, you'll burn in hell" and all that insaine religious crap, instead of focusing on the real beauty of the life and teachings of Jesus as a way of living and treating others.
True Christians focus on both. We are Christians first and foremost because we know that Jesus died for our sins. But if we aren't practicing how Jesus said that we must treat one another, then what is the point? Christianity has to be a well roundness of faith, and love for our fellow man.



I especially like the idea of the "holy ghost" living within us not so much as a "fact" but as a philosophy to explain a feeling of oneness with others. And I like the idea of baptism as a physical act to highten the symbolism of washing away ones guilt or sins of the past, in a way of self forgiveness. I personally think that the real Jesus, didn't say "I am the way and the light". My guess is he was referring to the "holy spirit" within him. Feeling a oneness with all life, seems to be the best way of feeling a connection with the source of all life.
God fill three offices. Much in this way.... say you are married with children. You are:
A. The son of your parents
B. A husband
c. A father

God is God - the creator of life. Jesus is God coming down to earth in flesh form. The holy spirit is the spirit of God that is given to live in our hearts.

[Real American]

I like apologetics. It's an in depth study into my faith. I think this here will sum it up for all of you if you will actualy read it.


There is no objective evidence that the biblical text has been tampered with by the Jews or the early Church. There is no manuscript evidence, no archaeological evidence, no eyewitness--or otherwise--testimony, no support from the writings of the early Church, nor any evidence from the study of textual criticism to substantiate witches' or other occultist's or critics subjectively based claims of a tampered Bible.

On the other hand, there is overwhelming objective evidence to support the conclusion that the biblical text was not tampered with by the early Church, but has been faithfully transmitted down through the centuries to us today and is indeed a reliable historical document of the first order.

The problem here is not a tampered with or corrupted biblical text or teachings of the Old or New Testaments, but with those who will not accept the clear teaching(s) of the Bible.

The only reason people have for believing that the Bible has been tampered with by the early Church (or anyone else) it that it clearly does not teach what they believe and practice. The Bible does not concur with their views or feelings. Therefore, they conjecture that it must have been tampered with by the early Church. This is a textbook case of circular reasoning--assuming the very thing you are suppose to or are trying to prove.

Just about anyone can assert just about anything, but this does not constitute proof of the claim. Proving it is another matter. For instance, just about anyone can file a lawsuit, but proving their case is a different issue. So it is with this charge.

Therefore, in light of the evidence, in light of accepted scholarly archaeological, historical, legal, literary, logical, and textual facts and principles, I affirm the authenticity and trustworthiness of the biblical text and acceptance of all that it teaches. Indeed, the Bible contains the definitive counsel concerning the meaning and purpose of life.
by
Craig S. Hawkins
AMEN!

[JohnnyX]

Campbell, first I will say that those are just websites. They are just reports that others have done regarding this issue. If you read closely and in context to my earlier statements you would have read the appropriate citings of the Vatican conventions concerning biblical revision...that was the subject. So what if it was written that long ago, how long has the bible been around? And if you know so much. Why aren't you explaining to me the origins of the bible and how it was written instead of just trying to refute my claims. I'm not asking to see how well you debate I'm asking about the bible. Do you know for a fact how and when and by whom it was written? Do you know how many original books there were? Have you ever read the hebrew torah or the greek writing of Paul? Can you tell me how Moses wrote Genesis? These are the questions I ask. Please. I have seen this happen all too often on these boards, there is no real debate but just people mouthing off their opinions which is fine but we must remembe opinions do not equal truth.

[JohnnyX]

"There is no objective evidence that the biblical text has been tampered with by the Jews or the early Church. There is no manuscript evidence, no archaeological evidence, no eyewitness--or otherwise--testimony, no support from the writings of the early Church, nor any evidence from the study of textual criticism to substantiate witches' or other occultist's or critics subjectively based claims of a tampered Bible."

This is one man's conclusion. He is saying that he couldn't find proof of tampering and he wont because records of those kind are not available to anyone except the Pope and top cardinals

let us remember the meaning of the words objectively and subjectively.

[campbell34]

"There is no objective evidence that the biblical text has been tampered with by the Jews or the early Church. There is no manuscript evidence, no archaeological evidence, no eyewitness--or otherwise--testimony, no support from the writings of the early Church, nor any evidence from the study of textual criticism to substantiate witches' or other occultist's or critics subjectively based claims of a tampered Bible."

This is one man's conclusion. He is saying that he couldn't find proof of tampering and he wont because records of those kind are not available to anyone except the Pope and top cardinals

let us remember the meaning of the words objectively and subjectively.

Here is one man's conclusion after years of being in the religion called denialism (denying all the proof of the Bible) he actually went out and search for himself the truth. He has seen the truth and he no longer cries wolf.

To the best of my memory, before I came to the saving grace of Jesus Christ, I did not believe the Bible was true. I doubted whether there was a God and believed that we were born, lived so many years, and then died. I owned a successful business and thought that I had succeeded by my own wits.
One evening, my wife and I heard some documentation that these were the last days before Jesus Christ would actually return. Not really wanting to hear it, I almost walked out. Something kept me there, and I listened. I was not convinced. I still had doubts whether or not there was a God. I doubted whether there really was a Satan, heaven, hell, or a judgment. Just to be sure, however, I decided to do a little research. My idea was to find out if the Bible was really true. Indeed, if I could find one contradiction, one error, or anything in the Bible that was not true, then that would be all that was needed to disregard it. (I wasn't necessarily interested in whether we were in the latter days or not, but just trying to find out if the Bible was really true.) I believed this would take a very short time.
As I have learned, the Bible has about 10,000 prophecies (verses). Nearly one-third of the Bible is directly or indirectly related to prophecy. This endeavour led me into far more research than I could have suspected. One thing needed, was to determine when the Bible was actually written. Because of this, a study of biblical history and archaeology was necessary. I found the Old Testament was indeed written before the coming of Jesus, as the Dead Sea Scrolls (containing parts of the book of Isaiah) were proven to have been written before Jesus came. The book of Isaiah includes forecasts of Jesus. Thousands of clay tablets have also been found, which confirm many accounts in the Bible.
I began studying the prophecies in the Bible. My wife would go to the library for me to obtain documentation from reference books to see if the prophecies really did take place. One day went by, then two days, and then a week. Every prophecy that we were able to get information on proved to be accurate. Two weeks went by. Then four weeks passed. My job became of secondary importance. Every prophecy that we were able to verify checked as being true. I was astonished, but far from convinced. I still had doubts as to whether there was a God, a heaven, or a hell yet I had to be sure. Later, there were people who would show me what appeared to be contradictions in the Bible, yet these were not contradictions at all, but only a lack of research on the part of those that said these things. I was searching to find if the Bible was true. My wife spent a lot of time at the library making copies of various reference materials, which I would check out against the Scriptures. Stubborn, that's me. Even after four weeks of intensive study, proving prophecy after prophecy was true, I was still skeptical and refused to believe. I began taking more time off from my business and investing it in study. One month turned into two, and two months turned into four. The more I researched, the more determined I became. It wasn't possible. The Bible could not be perfect. Thousands of prophecies, and every one perfect? No, impossible! Sixty-six books written by many people over hundreds of years and not one error? If I would admit that, I would have to admit there was a God, and I was not prepared to do it, even after months of research.
My studies also included various translations of the Bible, checking prophecies against reference books, archaeological discoveries, just to mention some. It became an obsession with me. My foremost desire was to know the truth. Four months turned into many months. I've never known anyone, before or since, that was willing to take this amount of time just to find out if the Bible was true. Finally, I had to admit I was wrong.
If you would walk across the street 10,000 times and never get hit, then you would walk across the street the next time by faith. So it was with me. Finally, after spending almost countless hours of research, I had to admit the Bible is true and is indeed the perfect Word of God. Anyone willing to take the time I did and do the same research, could only come to the same conclusion, if they are honest with themselves. I may have been the biggest skeptic in the world, but now I know. It did not come easy, but by God's mercy and grace, it did come.

[freakwentflyer]

I don't believe you.


Sorry, Campbell34, but I don't believe you did all the work and research you claim. Name just three "proofs". State the verse, then the proof. You can't name one that can't be shot full of holes with pure reason.

[JohnnyX]

It is my habit to take things I read and hear with a grain of salt. This may, I admit, inhibit me from putting my whole faith in some things. I know the bible is full of prophecies. Have they all come true 100% Well, I believe that is a matter of perception. Am I questioning your faith in the bible? No. I am not. I really hope I don't come off as a Christian basher because I believe in the freedom to worship in his/her own way. My point I was trying to make (for myself if not for anyone else) is that over centuries of revisions and translations some books were excluded, some were lost. Logic tells me that if man (he who prints and revises the bible we might buy at a bookstore) is imperfect and erreonous that his creations will be too. In all of the centuries in the history of the bible (outside of its worshipful purposes) this book (it must be made by men for you and I to have one to read) is subject as well as the society that embraces it. These are the points I am making. I'm sorry if we don't agree but in my own bad habit I feel the need to keep on foot on the ground.

[campbell34]

I don't believe you.


Sorry, Campbell34, but I don't believe you did all the work and research you claim. Name just three "proofs". State the verse, then the proof. You can't name one that can't be shot full of holes with pure reason.
WoW..... did you even read the first paragraph.....

Here is one man's conclusion after years of being in the religion called denialism (denying all the proof of the Bible) he actually went out and search for himself the truth. He has seen the truth and he no longer cries wolf.

THAT IS NOT ME....


But that is besides the fact.... what kind of proof would u like scientifical, archaelogical, or prophetical. I would write them all out for you but I do not have the time..... please look at my website ...

http://r-campbell34.tripod.com/proof

There you will see many of each proof and links to learn more about them.... and if there is something that you disagree with please tell....I will be happy to explain.... but as of now I have to get packing for my trip I will return aug. 14

[Epiphany]

Man didn't just write the Bible on his own. It was the holy spirit working through man. Just like when the holy spirit works through you to speak in tongues.

"Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had it's origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit" - 1 Peter 1:20&21

[JohnnyX]

your missing my point....does the Holy Spirit then work through the press that prints them? And the companies that sell them for a price?

[Epiphany]

your missing my point....does the Holy Spirit then work through the press that prints them? And the companies that sell them for a price?
Not all Bibles have been watered down. The Greek-Hebrew King James version hasn't been tampered with much. Most of the changes in Bibles are due to translation.

[POPthree13]

Not all Bibles have been watered down. The Greek-Hebrew King James version hasn't been tampered with much. Most of the changes in Bibles are due to translation.
This is completely absurd. It is true that we continue to try and perfect translations, but the bible from the beginning was a collection of works with varying degrees of accuracy. Many biblical scholars (not anti-christians) agree that as much a 1/3rd of the bible is a forgery. Foer example... many books credited to an author have other authors who borrow a namesake to lend weiht to their writings. Of the Gospels, only John is original and the others and copies... differing interpretations of the same work. Naturally they sound alike.. they are the same document. When the bible was being assembled there were HUNDREDS of gospels and many were eliminated because they contradicted or were too outlandish to be beleivable. The bible was formed to sound accurate and discourage differing veiwpoints. Rome took a whole room of texts, versions and scrolls and baked them into one consice book and told you it was irrefutable, completely accurate, uneditable, and unchangeable and then they told you if you didn't beleive that they would burn you at the stake. Then they launched a campaign across the world to destroy any evidence that was contradictory. No wonder so many people beleive. Those who did not were killed.

Here are some interesting things left out of the bible...
Jesus probably married. He may have had offspring which fled to Gaul (france) after his execution. Jesus and Mary M. both wrote gospels, but they contradicted the divinity of Christ and were all but wiped form the earth. Jesus as a child had some pretty special gifts and he played with them as any child would. He and his family were run out of more than one village becasue he hurt and even killed playmates with his talents.

I think Jesus was a gifted messenger who came to give us an important message but that has been all but lost by:
A) Paul twisting the religion to spread it across Rome.
B) Rome twisting the message to pacify its populous/
C) Everyone buying into that without ever taking hte time to investigate history.

[Epiphany]

God often told men to write as they were being moved upon by his Holy Spirit.
(Exodus 17:14. Revelation 1:11, Luke 1:1-4)

examples:
God told Moses to write the ten commandments on tabletures
Jesus often said..."It is written".

Where is "it written" in account? In the Bible.

11 Timothy 3:16: "All scripture is given by the inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctorines, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."


"Doctorine: Instruction for the seeking
Reproof: Proof for the questioning
Correction: Direction for the straying
Instruction in Righteousness: Training for the disciple"

The Bible often says, "God's word". What does God say his word is? The Bible

[JohnnyX]

Thanks POPthree13....I was bginning to think that I was being delusional since noone here have ever heard of any of these things.

[BlackBillBlake]

It should be obvious that the Bible cannot be literally true, as it contains contradictions, and things that from a literal point of view are pure nonsense - for example, Joshua commanding the sun to stand still when it is not the sun but the earth that moves etc.

That is not to saY that it doesn't contain truth on a symbolic level, esp. the new testament.
It strikes me as a bit strange that people get so worked up about this. Also I wonder how reading the old testament can be uplifting - what with ethnic clensing and so on.
The absolutely critical thing is the story of Jesus life, death and resurection - that could be literally true - but not I think the OT.

[freakwentflyer]

WoW..... did you even read the first paragraph.....

Here is one man's conclusion after years of being in the religion called denialism (denying all the proof of the Bible) he actually went out and search for himself the truth. He has seen the truth and he no longer cries wolf.

THAT IS NOT ME....


But that is besides the fact.... what kind of proof would u like scientifical, archaelogical, or prophetical. I would write them all out for you but I do not have the time..... please look at my website ...

http://r-campbell34.tripod.com/proof

There you will see many of each proof and links to learn more about them.... and if there is something that you disagree with please tell....I will be happy to explain.... but as of now I have to get packing for my trip I will return aug. 14
Campbell34-
I've taken the time to read you site and links. As compelling as it can be at times, everything listed is easily disputable. Everything can be dismissed as either- "recorded after the fact", "self fulfilling prophecies", or "loose connections between criptic prophecies and actual events". From a pure scientific standpoint there is no proof, only enough evidence for theory.

[freakwentflyer]

"The bible is a book. it is a good book. But it is not the only book."

'Inherit the Wind' Jerome Lawrence & Robert E. Lee.HEY! I did that play in high school. That was (Henry Drummond) my line.

[campbell34]

Campbell34-
I've taken the time to read you site and links. As compelling as it can be at times, everything listed is easily disputable. Everything can be dismissed as either- "recorded after the fact", "self fulfilling prophecies", or "loose connections between criptic prophecies and actual events". From a pure scientific standpoint there is no proof, only enough evidence for theory.
-Are you going to get a little more detailed than that? Maybe give examples. It's easy to make broad statments.....

Jesus is the only way.

[campbell34]

Yes Ive heard of the DEAD SEA SCROLLS....but I also know that the books that were ousted from the vatican soon after the invention of the press when the pope decided that the bible was to be printed and distributed. After the disclusion of the lost books they were never to be seen again and their location has been kept a secret by the vatican. Why would these books be so secret? What didn't he want us to read? The bible was written by MEN not GOD!!!!! This is a fact. Not only that now the WORD OF GOD is written by a machine!!!! That is soooooooo HOLY! It is a book written by men who make mistakes so I take from it what I feel is useful to help me be a better person and to understand the culture of Hebrews and their Folklore and a picture of Palestine (Yes, Palestine) under the control of the Roman Empire. Not to mention the teachings of a very enlightened human being that I admire very much.
-The Dead Sea Scrolls were written before the church so that rules out the thinking that they Bible has been changed or mistranslated.
The Scrolls meaning matches up with todays Bible giving Christians confidence that the Bible has not been changed.

The men that wrote the Bible(Moses, Zechariah, Paul, ect.) must have been Gods themselves because what they wrote, what they predicted has been prophetically or archaeologically confirmed. THE FACT IS GOD INSPIRED THESE MEN.

[freakwentflyer]

-Are you going to get a little more detailed than that? Maybe give examples. It's easy to make broad statments.....

Jesus is the only way.

What do you mean ME, be detailed? I asked you for 3 examples of solid proof and you referred me to your site. You pick your best 3 examples from your site, or from any source, and I'll (when I get around to it) be glad to narrow my statements.

[queenannie]

The Bible often says, "God's word". What does God say his word is? The Bible

The bible says (in the 4th gospel, the only reliable one, IMO) that the Word is Jesus. Not the bible. When the bible was written, no one knew it was going to become the 'bible'.

[campbell34]

Good luck! As you can see from some of these posts, hard core bible beaters will keep you going in circles with twisted logic.

Try to take an intellectual walk down their path and you just find your shoes covered in dogma.
The stories of the bible are based on actual events so they see those connections as "proof".
All of the prophecies are inspired by events that continually happen through history, or are self fulfilling prophecies. So, nothing earth shattering in them.
I use to know the bible well, years ago. As at teen I planned to be a preacher.
Because of the new evidence that is coming in, it is now harder to believe that the stories of the bible did not happen. The facts appear to support the bibical accounts.
This is not church dogma, but archaeological facts. Yes, anytime I see the bottom of the Red sea covered with the remnants of the egyptian army and a burnt graniet mountain top, or a sealed east gate in Jerusalem that no one can open, when I discover hundereds of fullfilled prophecies in the bible, I do believe this is proof. And if anyone is honest with themselves they would consider this to be proof. Of coarse all archaeological discoveries must be twisted logic. Oh yeah, the bible flood never happened, but they are finding pillar lava on the top of mount ararat at 14,000 feet. Wonder who carried it up there?

[freakwentflyer]

RED SEA- The Egyptians would have carted their army, chariots and all across the Red Sea in boats, and surely many of them would have sunk over the years.


The story of the sea parting most likely evolved from the proven fact that at around the time the Jews left Egypt, there was a period where the Red Sea water level had dropped considerably due to a massive volcanic eruption in the region. There would have been an area where the Jews could have simply walked across. Even if the Romans didn't actually "chase" them, many years after the water had risen back closing off the passage, the stories that the Jewish tribes passed on verbally from generation to generation would easily have evolve into what was finally written down- God parted the water for them, then flooded the persuing Egyptians.

Any intelligent person should see that the acts of God stories in the Bible are all things of nature that the people at the time didn't understand.

As far as that closed gate "that can't be opened". That gate remains closed because of the proficy, not the other way around. It can be opened. The Christians there will not allow it to be opened.

Israel itself is a self fulfilling proficy.
When you say the Bible is true, I assume you mean it is the true word of God, not just that the stories are base on true events. Then you are saying that it is possible for God to speak to a human and tell him that it is OK to go into another peoples land, kill everyone including women and children and steal their homes. I refer to the book of Joshua.
That mentality is excactly why there is no peace in the middle east today,- religious self righteousness from all sides.

What gets me about you "religious" people is you get caught up in unimportant ideas. You know, I personally believe that the real Jesus was trying to move his people away from that dogmatic way of faith. Wisely, he didn't say "your religion sucks", he said " I bring forth a NEW covenant." Now I don't believe everything in the Bilble atributed to Jesus, but I do believe that.

Faith in our maker. Faith in a higher power. Feeling that we are part of that higher power (children if you will), yet being humble before it, that is all I require. A promise of heaven or threat of hell is meaningless to me.
We humans, have emerged from the earth with enough intelligence to wonder about our maker. Religions of the past help us track the path in which we attempted to understand our reason for being. There is a treasure of wisdom in all past religions, even the unwritten Native American beliefs. But to stay stuck in past mindsets is not wise at all. Learn from the past and move ahead. We will never achieve peace on earth if we don't.
I personally don't believe anyone can fully experience the joy of spiritual faith until they seperate it in their heart and mind from the shackles of religion.

[mynameiskc]

i was reading an article in the BAR about a man who discovered a translation error. moses and his followers crossed a reed sea, not the Red Sea. did anyone else hear about that one?

[TARABELLE]

i was reading an article in the BAR about a man who discovered a translation error. moses and his followers crossed a reed sea, not the Red Sea. did anyone else hear about that one?
Unless you are reading the bible in the language it was written, you don't have a clue what it really says. You're just going off someone else's translation and to take that literally just seems shortsighted to me.

[mynameiskc]

Unless you are reading the bible in the language it was written, you don't have a clue what it really says. You're just going off someone else's translation and to take that literally just seems shortsighted to me.
well i know, which was the point of the question. has anyone heard any more about the red sea/reed sea discussion?

[iscreamchocolate]

I had someone trying to defend that the Bible is 100% accurate. I found this person did not know what they were talking about. It infuriates me to think that people believe everything that the Bible says.
Does anyone else agree?
I totally agree... id on't believe in anything in the bible... :):)

[JohnnyX]

-The Dead Sea Scrolls were written before the church so that rules out the thinking that they Bible has been changed or mistranslated.
The Scrolls meaning matches up with todays Bible giving Christians confidence that the Bible has not been changed.

The men that wrote the Bible(Moses, Zechariah, Paul, ect.) must have been Gods themselves because what they wrote, what they predicted has been prophetically or archaeologically confirmed. THE FACT IS GOD INSPIRED THESE MEN.
I am not arguing that God inspired these men but the whole of what you just said is so logically invalid that I don't think you said what you meant to say. The only thing that is confirmed is that someone contextually projected verses of the bible to current events. Which can also be done with just about any other book in the world so your theory actually becomes humorously incorrect.

[campbell34]

What do you mean ME, be detailed? I asked you for 3 examples of solid proof and you referred me to your site. You pick your best 3 examples from your site, or from any source, and I'll (when I get around to it) be glad to narrow my statements.
Because im a little short on time could u answer one question for me. According to the bible God flooded the whole earth. Now most people may not believe that story. But if u were to go to the top of mount Ararat at the 14,000 foot level they have discovered pillar lava. Pillar lava can only form when a volcanic vent is submerged underwater. So my question is, how is it that they are finding pillar lava at 14,000 feet?

[campbell34]

RED SEA- The Egyptians would have carted their army, chariots and all across the Red Sea in boats, and surely many of them would have sunk over the years.


The story of the sea parting most likely evolved from the proven fact that at around the time the Jews left Egypt, there was a period where the Red Sea water level had dropped considerably due to a massive volcanic eruption in the region. There would have been an area where the Jews could have simply walked across. Even if the Romans didn't actually "chase" them, many years after the water had risen back closing off the passage, the stories that the Jewish tribes passed on verbally from generation to generation would easily have evolve into what was finally written down- God parted the water for them, then flooded the persuing Egyptians.

Any intelligent person should see that the acts of God stories in the Bible are all things of nature that the people at the time didn't understand.

As far as that closed gate "that can't be opened". That gate remains closed because of the proficy, not the other way around. It can be opened. The Christians there will not allow it to be opened.

Israel itself is a self fulfilling proficy.
When you say the Bible is true, I assume you mean it is the true word of God, not just that the stories are base on true events. Then you are saying that it is possible for God to speak to a human and tell him that it is OK to go into another peoples land, kill everyone including women and children and steal their homes. I refer to the book of Joshua.
That mentality is excactly why there is no peace in the middle east today,- religious self righteousness from all sides.

What gets me about you "religious" people is you get caught up in unimportant ideas. You know, I personally believe that the real Jesus was trying to move his people away from that dogmatic way of faith. Wisely, he didn't say "your religion sucks", he said " I bring forth a NEW covenant." Now I don't believe everything in the Bilble atributed to Jesus, but I do believe that.

Faith in our maker. Faith in a higher power. Feeling that we are part of that higher power (children if you will), yet being humble before it, that is all I require. A promise of heaven or threat of hell is meaningless to me.
We humans, have emerged from the earth with enough intelligence to wonder about our maker. Religions of the past help us track the path in which we attempted to understand our reason for being. There is a treasure of wisdom in all past religions, even the unwritten Native American beliefs. But to stay stuck in past mindsets is not wise at all. Learn from the past and move ahead. We will never achieve peace on earth if we don't.
I personally don't believe anyone can fully experience the joy of spiritual faith until they seperate it in their heart and mind from the shackles of religion.
Well first of all where they are finding all of these chariot wheels,axels,and coarl encrusted dead mens bones is across a 10 mile stretch. No sunken ships from that time period have been discovered. They have also found two 17 foot pillars with the names of Moses, Pharaoh, death, and Solomon, on oppsite shores. Carved in rock near the pillars they have found the entire story of what happened there. The depth of water at the center of the ten mile stretch is one thousand feet deep. If the water was low at this time to allow passage, then the oceans of the world would all have to of been shy about 1000 feet. I'm pretty sure volcanic activity could not do that. Even if you could over look the sea droping a 1000 feet, and some how the Jews got across. It would still not explain how Pharaohs army is now laying at the bottom between the two 17 foot pillars incrusted in coral.

The closed East Gate.
You stated the gate is closed because the Christians will not allowed it to be opened. The problem with that is the Christians are not in control of the Gate.
The Jews are, and before the Jews controled it the moslems controled it. The Moslems know about the prophecy and tried to break it but failed on two occasions. See if they could of got through the gate it would of maid the Bible null and void by breaking the prophecy. The Bible stated not to worry the prophecy will not be broken. The first time the moslems tried to break through it and on the very day they tried the British took control of Jerusalem, around 1917. After the British gave up control of Jerusalem the moslems tried again to break down the gate but on the very day in 1967 the Jews took control of Jerusalem. The bible speaks with confidence that the gate will not be opened until Christ returns. And He alone will enter that gate on His way to the temple.

The only time I get stuck in the past is when I find something that is real and verifiable. And what is real and verifiable today, is the Bible.

There is a treasure of wisdom in all past religions?
According to the God of the bible, God is not the author of confusion. The problem with all past religions is each one of them opposes the other. Not one of them agreed.

The Bible teaches that the world is a wicked place, and there will never be peace untill Christ returns, from what I can see, the bible got that right.

Shackles of Religion
There is a big difference between religion and faith in Christ. Don't confuse the two. If I have learned anything from the past it is that the Bible is true and verifiable. You can depend on this book, believeing in anything that is not verifiable makes you a blind faith believer, and that is the worst kind of religion.

[freakwentflyer]

'Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea, and the LORD drove the sea back by a strong east wind all night and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.' Exodus 14:21

Could this most famous of all stories have any basis in fact?

The reed sea theory If you read the bible in the original Hebrew, the word 'red' is mistranslated. In the Hebrew bible Moses and his people cross the 'yam suph' - the Sea of Reeds.

Egyptologist David Rohl: Now this is a strange story, I mean you can imagine trying to cross the Red Sea would be horrendously difficult but a Reed Sea is something quite different. This is marshland areas and this is probably what they crossed. Ancient Egyptian texts mention an area called Patchoufy: The Reeds. This is probably what they crossed.'So Moses stretched out his hand over the sea, and the sea returned to its normal course when the morning appeared. And as the Egyptians fled into it, the LORD threw the Egyptians into the midst of the sea.' Exodus 14:27

How then do we account for the sea coming back and inundating the soldiers?

David Rohl: If you're talking about a shallow reed swamp of maybe two or three metres maximum of water, this sort of thing is physically possible. In fact it's been witnessed within the last 100 years... The Egyptian army might not have been completely decimated. Many of the horses would have been killed, chariots would have been stuck in the mud.What about the famous image of a great canyon of water? Could this have any basis in reality?

Computer simulations of the Santorini eruption show that the collapse of the island would have triggered a mega-tsunami - a 600 foot wave travelling at 400 miles an hour.

Floyd McCoy, a tsunami expert says this was one of the largest waves in history and must have reached Egypt.

We find evidence, believe it or not, on the deep ocean floor. The tsunamis actually scraped across the bottom of the ocean floor in the Mediterranean and disturbed the sediment. We can find that sediment. That gives us some indication of the directions they went .. The computer model showed us waves radiating out all over the Mediterranean, reaching the Nile Delta.Could the tsunami have divided up the waters of the Reed Sea? If you look at ordinary waves you can see that just before they break, the water withdraws from the shore. A mega-tsunami would syphon billions of gallons of water - not just from the shore but from connecting rivers and lakes - creating dry land for as long as two hours.

Tsunami expert, Costas Synolakis: We should think of a two-metre tsunami wave like a rapid change of the sea level by two metres along the coast, and that can can travel several kilometres inland. The destructive force of the wave could easily destroy an army.Is there any other evidence for this theory?

In 1994, the Philippine island of Mindoro was hit by a tsunami and an earthquake. The earthquake caused a massive crack in the bed of a lake about a mile inland. An eye-witness said he saw the water like a waterfall in the centre of the lake just go down. After a while, he could see the bottom of the lake, he said 'I thought I could even walk through.'

Then the tsunami arrived one mile further down the river and swept away a 6,000 ton barge lying on the shore. The mega-tsunami which hit the Nile delta was a thousand times more devastating than this one.



__________________________________________________ ____________

Don't have time but I have much more to come!

[campbell34]

Unless you are reading the bible in the language it was written, you don't have a clue what it really says. You're just going off someone else's translation and to take that literally just seems shortsighted to me.
The claim that the Red Sea really means Reed Sea is false. In first Kings 9:26 it states that King Solomon made his navy on the shore of the Red Sea. Red Sea in Hebrew is Yam Suph-which means Red Sea. If Yam Suph was the Reed Sea Solomons ships would still be stuck in the mud. The wording in first Kings 9:26 is the same as the wording found in Exodus 15:4 to 22. Also the recent discoveries of the two 17 foot granit pillars marking the actual crossing sight were believed to of been placed there by Solomon. Also the entire story of the crossing was discovered carved in stone near the pillars. Between the pillars is a distance of 10 miles across the sea. It is at this spot where they are finding the remains of Pharaoh's army. The Reed Sea nonsense was an old arguement debated for years. Todays recent archaeological descoveries have pretty much put that myth to rest, except for those who have not done their homework.

[freakwentflyer]

I see most of your "proof" comes from the fraud, Ron Wyatt-
Ron Wyatt Information Resources
QUESTIONS & ANSWERS
Q. We had a man named Ron Wyatt who came to our city and claimed that he had discovered Noah's Ark and even the Ark of the Covenant? Is this for real?
A. Ron Wyatt, who has been telling his tales of discovering Noah's Ark, the chariots of Pharaoh, the pillars of Solomon, the true Mt. Sinai, the tomb of the Patriarchs, Sodom & Gomorrah, the place of Christ's crucifixion, and the Ark of the Covenant for many years, has been documented as an archaeological fraud. Both former "friends" as well as professional archaeologists in his own denomination (Seventh- Day Adventist) have published detailed refutations of all of his "discoveries." Rather than go into such details here we refer those interested in the documentation against Wyatt to request a free packet of papers by archaeologists in Wyatt's denomination from: Dr. David Merling, Associate Director & Curator, Institute of Archaeology, Horn Archaeological Museum, Andrews University, Berrien Springs, MI 49104-0990.
Yet (http://yet/), despite the fact that Wyatt has never submitted verifiable evidence for his claims to competent authorities, his books, video tapes and lectures in churches and at hotel meeting rooms (with the Prophecy Club) have won him a fervent following among less discerning Christians. Concerning the claims that most excite his audiences - his supposed discovery of Noah's Ark and the Ark of the Covenant - we may briefly state the following. His Noah's Ark site had been examined and long abandoned by Ark hunters and geologists as a natural formation before Wyatt and others came to the spot, and it has continued to be proven to be such (even though the Turks gave it credibility for the sake of tourism). There are eight other smaller formations like it in the area, so if this is Noah's Ark there must have been a fleet of them! As to the Ark of the Covenant, Wyatt says that he found it along with the Table of Shewbread, the Golden Altar of Incense, and the Menorah (a seven-branched candlelabra) which stood in the ancient Temple, in a cave inside the hill called "Gordon's Calvary" in eastern Jerusalem. Wyatt even says he scrapped blood off of the Mercy Seat of the Ark, had it analyzed and found it to have half the normal number of human chromosomes (therefore, the blood of the Virgin born Christ). He further says that the Ark was positioned in such a way so that when Christ was crucified His blood fell through a hole in the cliff above and landed on the Mercy Seat (thus fulfilling the atonement typified by this object). While such a story thrills audiences, "Gordon's Calvary" cannot be the place of Christ's crucifixion. It has no archaeological support, whereas the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, identified with Christ's crucifixion since the 4th century A.D. has much). "Gordon's Calvary" at the site of the Protestant "Garden Tomb" is part of a complex of First Temple tombs (about 600 years before Christ), but the New Testament says Jesus tomb was "newly hewn" ().Wyatt's "discoveries" have been rejected by real archaeologists not because, as Wyatt contends, they are jealous, or lack faith, but because his stories are unsubstantiated by facts. If facts are the basis for our faith (Christ actually died and rose again), then it is no lack of faith to demand of those with incredible claims that they be supported with evidence. The bottom line is: Wyatt has given us nothing to believe, so believe nothing he says!
Posted November 20, 1999
ARCHEOLOGY WITH RON WYATT: a personal account by Bernard Brandstater (http://www.ldolphin.org/wyatt1.html)
Letter from Joe Zias (http://www.tentmaker.org/WAR/Zias.html)
Dear Mr. Searcy
Mr. Ron Wyatt is neither an archaeologist nor has he ever carried out a legally licensed excavation in Israel or Jerusalem. In order to excavate one must have at least a BA in archaeology which he does not possess despite his claims to the contrary. We are aware of his claims which border on the absurd as they have no scientific basis whatsoever nor have they ever been published in a professional journal. They fall into the category of trash which one finds in tabloids such as the National Enquirer, Sun etc. It's amazing that anyone would believe them. Furthermore, he has been throughly discredited by various Christian organizations such as Creation Research in Calif. For the latest on his "discoveries" I suggest going into the WWW (use Vista) someone called Tentmaker decided to do an expose of his various claims. Here you will find the truth, which is more amazing that his (RW) fictions.
Shalom
Joe Zias
Curator of Anthropology/Archaeology
Israel Antiquities Authority

Ron Wyatt has never received a license from the IAA to excavate here in Jerusalem. If he has then let him produce a license for his digs and surveys in Jerusalem, the Judean Desert, Mt. Sinai etc.
As for the chariot wheel, a bluff, produce it, on what was the dating made? Saw it in the video, it looks like a hoax. If it exists date it in a C-14 lab. As a amauter arch. which he claims to be he should know of many.
The Noah's ark discovery has been discredited. If it is true, and I saw the tape, show lab reports on the C-14 lab report.
I saw his video which is an embarrasment to the world of arch. The only people who can believe this junk is one who has never studied arch. As for the impt. archaeologists he mentions in his reports. I have never heard of one of them after 25 yrs in the profession. As for the James Irwin, what are his credentials regarding the world of Biblical Arch. Did he have a BA in the profession, he was conned into believing this as have many others who wish to believe rather than to know.
Lastly if RW can supply us with the lab report on the so called blood of Jesus along with a sample for independent testing which shows 24 chromosones I will then be led along the road to Damascus. Otherwise he is bluffing.
Joe Zias
Curator of Anthropology/Archaeology
Israel Antiquities Authority

ABR ELECTRONIC NEWSLETTER
Vol. 2, Issue 2 Circulation: 2675
February 15, 2002
http://www.christiananswers.net/abr (http://www.christiananswers.net/abr)
Ron Wyatt's Sodom
Rev. Gary Byers
Geologist Steve Austin of the Institute for Creation Research recently examined evidence from a site on the west side of the Dead Sea (at the foot of Masada), suggested by Ron Wyatt as the location of the destroyed Biblical city of Sodom. Austin is one of the few geologists to have critically examined evidence from this region in light of Wyatt's claims. The site was recently visited, and the geological features were photographed by Robert Brecka of Baltimore, MD. Austin examined BreckaÕs photos and also tested and evaluated samples from the area.
Having studied the geology of the local Lisan Marl in both Israel and Jordan, Austin noted the samples were typical of lake environments. Although not having specifically studied Wyatt's site, Austin has observed similar landforms and erosion features in the marl strata northeast of Masada. Referring to the Dead Sea basin as one of the world's best pull-apart basins, he pointed out its similarity to the Imperial Valley and Salton Sea of California in both tectonic structure and desert landforms.

After examining Brecka's photographs of the Lisan Marl on the west side of the Dead Sea, Austin noted the region's world-class examples of desert landforms. He described the Lisan Marl as ancient lake sediment from a former Dead Sea, which occupied the basin at a higher level just thousands of years ago at the time of the "Ice Age." The marl is very poorly consolidated and is composed of microscopic crystals of calcite (calcium carbonate) and gypsum (calcium sulfate with water). Austin identified piping tubes created by vertical fracturing, which then created sinkholes and cave-like structures. Although some have the appearance of human excavations, they are entirely of natural origin. Bridging, arches, rills, sapping structures and gully erosion were prominent in the region. Natural marl joints broke off in linear rectangular features that created narrow mesas (buttes) and pediments (gravel-covered mesas). Circular marl structures ("pinnacles" and "hodos") were also identified. Numerous erosional forms containing resistant strata (known as "elephant knees") were also observed in the marl formation.

Sulfur nodules, common throughout the site, were also examined and Austin suggested their presence was from the chemical alteration of gypsum within the strata. Earthquake-produced fluidization structures of beautiful swirls along with lamination forms and the phenomenon of desert varnish were also observed in the Lisan formations.
With all these features being common natural phenomenon and typical of dried up lake environments, Austin believed many were relic desert forms. He suggested they were created a couple of thousand years ago. Based on Brecka's photographs, Austin saw no reason to believe there was anything that was not a natural geological feature. While not totally ruling it out, he did not observe anything suggesting modification by human activity.
The Israel Antiquities Authority (IAA) also does not believe there is any evidence for ancient artifacts or structures at the site. Yet, they were favorable to Brecka's interest and encouraged him to apply for an excavation permit. (Photographs and a fuller report of the geological features at this site, believed by Ron Wyatt to be the destroyed city of Sodom, will appear in a coming issue of ABR's quarterly magazine Bible and Spade.)
Tentmaker.org (http://www.tentmaker.org/WAR/index.html)

[freakwentflyer]

Also check out-

http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew7/D7-AGreatChristianScam.html

[freakwentflyer]

And check out-

http://www.isitso.org/guide/wyatt.html

Seems there is endless evidence against your man Ron Wyatt.

I suggest you stop looking for proof in God in a book. Have some real faith. I see all the proof I need in my daughters smile.

[queenannie]

There is a big difference between religion and faith in Christ. Don't confuse the two. If I have learned anything from the past it is that the Bible is true and verifiable.
There is also a big difference between true and verifiable. The bible is 100% truth, without doubt, and support for faith is found on every page. A lot of things are verifiable, especially after the discoveries of Ron Wyatt, which sadly seem to have gone largely ignored.

But that's not to say that the truth of the bible lies within its verifiability. That is a dangerous statement to make, in regard to verifying with human means. It is only verifiable spiritually, and in that way, it is more convincing than any humanly discovered evidence could ever be!

You can depend on this book, believeing in anything that is not verifiable makes you a blind faith believer, and that is the worst kind of religion.
Is not faith defined as "unquestioning belief that does not require proof or evidence"? That's the way I always understood it. When we look for verification of the bible, are we not rendering our faith imperfect?

I believe, without a doubt, the canonized bible has been altered to suit the political agendas of man, namely the Jews and then the Catholics. The Roman Empire needed help ruling the masses, so they adopted a policy of ignorance induced fearful compliance of the people. If you read some of the 'Fathers' papers on heresy, they do not say 'because the bible tells me so', or 'because Jesus said', they said 'because the Catholic authorities said so.' That, IMO, is a definite example of why blind faith believers do comprise the worst kind of religion.

BUT, blind faith believers are the ideal spirit-of-G-d seekers. If you adopt that attitude when reading the bible, much more can be gained from it. It is not a lawbook (unless you're Jewish, and still that's debatable), nor a history text book, or a practical genealogical record. It is a complete package, meant to be treated as such, and not dissected in the modern custom of today, which drains all meaning and message from it, like life blood. It is about symbolism, repeating patterns, and there are 2 or 3 storylines (that I have seen) that run through it, with the most amazing consistency of anything ever written. Unless we read it with our minds emptied of what we think we want to find in it, and be 'as little children' (think Dr. Seuss, how much can be learned there? A lot, if you're a little kid and don't wish to verify the existence of green eggs or yaks!), we are missing more than we're gaining.

I'm not saying that the things told of didn't happen, or that they did, or anything like that. What I'm saying is this: If we value the lesson, we must trust the teacher. Why do we have teachers? To tell us of those things we do not know. Do we feel compelled to prove every little thing they tell us? No, most of us take them at their word, figuring they've met qualifications of some kind, and then we go on, applying what we've learned. Now and then, we might find something wasn't quite as they said, but mostly their information was viable. Why not G-d's? He is far more wise, loving, and caring than the very best teacher that ever taught. So why not believe the bible, within the context of an illustrated lesson, with morals of the story and an acceptance that it is totally true, without questioning until application time?

There's nothing wrong with questioning, but ask the right questions! And don't seek to verify G-d in the records and accounts of mankind. That's a nonverbal demonstration of a lack of faith, and I don't see how it is otherwise. You'll never find the absolute truth unless you totally trust G-d to reveal it to you. I know this is a fact, from my own experience. All this I say from the perspective of having been in various stages of seeking and verifying, etc. But I always believed 100% that G-d would show me the truth if that's what I wanted.

From the changes in my life, inward and outward, I know that He has.

The original Hebrew and Greek usually use 'trust' instead of 'believe'.

Mark 1:15 *And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Mark 9:23 *Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

Mark 11:23 *For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

Mark 11:24 *Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

John 3:12 *If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

John 5:44 *How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

John 5:47 *But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Acts 13:39 *And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Hebrews 11:6 *But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

[freakwentflyer]

P.S. Here's another good one-

http://www.christiananswers.net/cgi-bin/htsearch?words=Ron+Wyatt&restrict=abr%7Cq-abr%7Carchaeology&config=htdig&exclude=&format=long&sort=score&htsearch=1

[POPthree13]

A lot of things are verifiable, especially after the discoveries of Ron Wyatt, which sadly seem to have gone largely ignored.
They go largly ignored because Wyatt's only followers are those who are yearning for proof where there is none. Mr. Wyatt has been denounced again and again by REAL biblical archaeologists who rightly claim that Mr. Wyatt takes credibility away from all real research. I think the subject of biblical archaeology is fascinating and I find Mr. Wyatt's discreditation of the real work going on simply a crime. I for one am glad the work of this nut job has gone mostly ignored. Otherwise the entire body of real archaeological work would be brought into question...

http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/wyatt.html

http://www.isitso.org/guide/wyatt.html

http://www.uhcg.org/Q&A/Ron-Wyatt.html

http://www.isitso.org/guide/wyattsuper.html

[freakwentflyer]

Quote Queenannie-
A lot of things are verifiable, especially after the discoveries of Ron Wyatt, which sadly seem to have gone largely ignored.


And there seems to be good reasons for Wyatt being ignored. Read my last posts and links.

[queenannie]

And there seems to be good reasons for Wyatt being ignored. Read my last posts and links.

That's neither here nor there, that is my whole point! Whether or not Mr Wyatt really found these things, or if they're 'for real', by man's judgment, has no bearing whatsoever on the question of whether the bible's for real.

That's what's getting in the way with everyone! Trying to get man to show proof of G-d. That's basically idolatry, if you look at truthfully. Who do you believe? Not Ron Wyatt, not Annie, not archeologists, but G-d, Jesus! The source of Truth with a capital T.

All this time wasted trying to verify could be spent by verifying the bible with itself. All you're doing is proclaiming to G-d that you have not much faith.

Does it make you mad that I say that? I could care less whether this stuff is true (although Mr. Wyatt's 'discoveries' are an interesting read, regardless) because it's not always going to be here.

Heaven and earth will both pass away, but my words will never pass away--Jesus

[POPthree13]

I think what Wyatt's work shows us is just how gullible we as human beings can be. Therefore anyone who does not take the time to search for truth is in danger of having 'faith' in whatever is handed them... right or wrong.


Seek and you will find...
knock and the door will be opened....

The bible teaches us about faith, but is says nothing about BLIND faith.

[queenannie]

freakwentflyer and pop13:

I did look at the links you both posted. I mentioned Ron Wyatt because that's the only biblical archeology of any sort I've read about, and I happened upon him in looking for some reference to the Noah's ark story and photo I had seen on TV as a child. It turned out to be the same as the one he discovered. Also, from the previous posts, it seemed that's where the information was coming from.

Like I said, I don't look for verification with archeology and other things, any more, as I found them to be a stumbling block. When I focused on the bible, and said 'I trust G-d to give me the truth within this book' it gave me the ability to trust without needing proof given by man. That's not to say I don't look up associated research about the bible, but in no way do I base my belief on the findings. I'm just not much into archeology for the simple fact of the time factor which it relies on, and I truly believe the bible is not going to match our designated timelines. There are many reasons I believe this, but none of them make what it says not truth.

I didn't realize that Mr. Wyatt had the beliefs and alledged agenda these articles state he did. I didn't get into that much, because his beliefs have nothing to do with mine, the same for everyone. There were a few things in a couple of the accounts that didn't go along with my understandings, interpretations of Revelation, for one thing, in the ark of the covenant story. The pictures of the garden tomb struck a cord with me, as did the Mt Sinai stuff. But none of it affected my belief in the bible.

Although these articles have valid points, they have a comparable amount of invalid points, as well, based on the human vs. divine proof thing. One example is I read somewhere in these articles that the baal's altar stones couldn't have been the ones from the Exodus, because they were too big, and the bible says Aaron built the altar. The problems I see with that justification are #1 that could have easily meant Aaron supervised the building of the altar, even today the foreman is often credited with the whole job, just for the sake of simplicity or whatever. #2 If that's not the reason for why it is said that way, another reason could be that there is a symbolism inherent in the passage that depends on saying Aaron was the builder, not the supervisor. I don't know, because I haven't read that passage with that aspect in mind. #3 No one has yet been able to agree on the actual date of the Exodus, mainly because each 'biblical scholar' or 'archeologist' is using just one reference alongside the bible to come to all these separate conclusions.

If we're going to compare other findings alongside the bible, just for giggles, let's say, then why not compare several findings from various fields simultaneously? I guarantee a lot more clarity would result from a wider perspective. It's easier to pick out the truth when there's comparison made! That's only logical, and it seems 'scientific' for those that dig that avenue.

Still, the bottom line is this: G-d didn't give us His word for biblical proof 101 at the university of human error. He gave it to us so that we can graduate/drop out of that fallible school, and become true scholars, justified by faith.

But until we throw away all textbooks but the bible, when placing our faith in what we read in the bible, we won't be able to see what it really says. No one wants to accept apocryphal biblical texts, that haven't been mutilitated by politics, despite their ability to be proven within themselves and alongside the canonized bible, yet we will argue over the validity of human discoveries! The only two main discoveries viable in this discussion were both found hidden in clay jars/pots, in the desert, in the 1940's. Everything we need to know to feel we truly are justified in faith can be found there.

Can you really say you believe in G-d if you won't take Him at his word? Or His Word?

[POPthree13]

I can't disagree with anything you have said. I am certainly not trying to erode anyone's faith by discounting Wyatt's stuff. I appreciate any thoughtful christian perspective and I fear for people who will swallow hook-line and sinker anything that seems to proove their point.


I for one do beleive ina God and think he has spoken to us throughout the ages through various mediums and continues to speak to us to this day. I think a conscious effort must be undertaken to understand the context of our teachers and search for truth in the necessarily human interpretation and recording of these messages. Arguing over stories is entirely irrelevant, and this generally is my major complaint. Many people will fight to the end over stories presented to us without any research into who wrote them, what the political/social/and religious framework was in place.. and in the end does it REALLY matter? If God is God then it doesn't matter if his process is evolution, or just shitting out animals? If God is God then who cares in Noah could cram half a billion species into a boat? If God is God then the only thing that matters is building a persoanl relationship and understanding of the forces that bring you closer to it.

[queenannie]

I can't disagree with anything you have said. I am certainly not trying to erode anyone's faith by discounting Wyatt's stuff. I appreciate any thoughtful christian perspective and I fear for people who will swallow hook-line and sinker anything that seems to proove their point.Ditto. That's the problem, trying to prove their point. Whose point is it, really, if you believe in G-d? I'd say G-d's!


.. and in the end does it REALLY matter? If God is God then it doesn't matter if his process is evolution, or just shitting out animals? If God is God then who cares in Noah could cram half a billion species into a boat? If God is God then the only thing that matters is building a persoanl relationship and understanding of the forces that bring you closer to it.
That's also the problem, trying to understand the hows and whys instead of just believing. He loves us unconditionally, IMO, and so conditional faith is not up to par in return. I learned so much more after I quit trying to conform the bible to my understanding and instead tried to understand the bible. I do believe there's only one force which can truly bring you closer to knowing G-d, one on one, and that's trusting that it's possible to do so with just the two of you involved, on the basic level. There's nothing wrong with comparing notes, and learning from each other's understandings, but the foundation must be original to ourselves.

Trying to prove to each other why what we believe is the absolute thing to believe is really not about faith, it's about human insecurity and fear, mainly fear of dying. Both of which can be easily remedied by one initial 'leap of faith'. But no one wants to strive for something they'd rather already think they have. If it doesn't set you free, it's not truth.

[campbell34]

I can't disagree with anything you have said. I am certainly not trying to erode anyone's faith by discounting Wyatt's stuff. I appreciate any thoughtful christian perspective and I fear for people who will swallow hook-line and sinker anything that seems to proove their point.


I for one do beleive ina God and think he has spoken to us throughout the ages through various mediums and continues to speak to us to this day. I think a conscious effort must be undertaken to understand the context of our teachers and search for truth in the necessarily human interpretation and recording of these messages. Arguing over stories is entirely irrelevant, and this generally is my major complaint. Many people will fight to the end over stories presented to us without any research into who wrote them, what the political/social/and religious framework was in place.. and in the end does it REALLY matter? If God is God then it doesn't matter if his process is evolution, or just shitting out animals? If God is God then who cares in Noah could cram half a billion species into a boat? If God is God then the only thing that matters is building a persoanl relationship and understanding of the forces that bring you closer to it.
Lets not be vague on this issue, it's not just stories we are arguing about here. It is the credibility of the bible. The truth is the facts supporting scripture are coming out. Most of the world does not want to hear these facts nor do they want a personal God. They want a God that looks the other way when they live a lifestyle the bible condems. Thats why some speak of God as an it. As if He was some force floating in space. God is not an it, He was fully human and He is fully God. The world showed God how much they love truth when they nailed Him to a cross. Recently two other men found their way to mount Sinai and came back with pictures and video recordings. They are telling the same story that Ron wyatt and his son told.
National Geographic Television stated after viewing their pictures and videos, "This is a masterpiece of research and significance..a great piece of work and one of the most remarkable things that has happened of recent years." -Jack Hayford. Ian Reed, of Reuters News Agency "What could possibly upstage the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls? Maybe the news that Mount Sinai has been found...." "Your explorations are fascinating. Your story is remarkable!"
The only hook line and sinker being swallowed here, is by those who turn away from the obvious truth. Even when the evidence is set before them, they will not consider it, or acknoledge it.

[queenannie]

Lets not be vague on this issue, it's not just stories we are arguing about here. It is the credibility of the bible. The truth is the facts supporting scripture are coming out. The only truth needed to support the scripture is found within it. i.e. John 14:6 *Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Not Ron Wyatt, not Moses, not Pharoah, not the Church fathers, and not the pope. Not by means of any proof. The proof is in the pudding, as they say.

Most of the world does not want to hear these facts nor do they want a personal God. They want a God that looks the other way when they live a lifestyle the bible condems. I agree with that. They want a god they can look away from, more precisely. Therefore, don't you realize that until you tailor a god to allow them their comforts and attachments to the world, that there will always be a reason some people will give for not believing? If they don't believe, after they've had the opportunity to hear, what else can a person do? Why spend the rest of your time here tap dancing around a bunch of non-resolvable points of contention that will never be resolved anyway? If you somehow 'prove' the bible really happened, verbatim, are those with hardened hearts suddenly going to see the light? Just because you showed factual evidence? Is that going to make what it says any more true than it is, 'non proven'? Why try to convert the world to your line of thinking in a futile exercise which is just as much a distraction from your own spiritual affairs as greed and all worldly things can be? Who are you helping? Who are you hurting?

The world showed God how much they love truth when they nailed Him to a cross. Exactly. What makes you think they are going to love truth now, put forth in a less potent manner than He did? He didn't go around trying to 'prove' who He was or present any authority for his words other than He who sent Him. Period. He tried to keep Himself a secret as well, since He knew how fond this world is of truth. Example:Matthew 7:6 *Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. If someone earnestly desires to know Him, they will find the door to knock upon. Example: Matthew 15:26 *But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. Matthew 15:27 *And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

Recently two other men found their way to mount Sinai and came back with pictures and video recordings. They are telling the same story that Ron wyatt and his son told.So who's telling Jesus's story, the sake of which all these efforts at proof are supposedly for? To someone who already believes, they are just unnecessary, and to those who don't believe, they mean nothing. They never will, until there is first trust and faith used as salve for blind eyes.
National Geographic Television stated after viewing their pictures and videos, "This is a masterpiece of research and significance..a great piece of work and one of the most remarkable things that has happened of recent years." Sure it is, however, I say almost the same thing to myself each time I find a new enlightenment when reading the bible. Which is every single time I read it, and that is every day. I don't need National Geographic to back my claim, either.

"What could possibly upstage the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls? There was more than one discovery of valuble biblical texts found in like manner in the same area, 2 years prior, yet no one wants to read them or count them valid. The are just like the canonized bible, and the DSS, they are verifiable within themselves and alongside the other two. What richer discovery could there be than more of the words of Jesus?!? Why wouldn't they be the words of Jesus, and more truth? Because they weren't canonized by the early church? Who did that? Jesus? G-d? Or humans desiring to control their vast empire with the fear induced by forced ignorance of the truth. If they'd had their way, there'd be no reason to try to prove the bible, as they would be the only ones owning one. Fortunately, it's not that way, and we have no reason not to research it for our self.

The only hook line and sinker being swallowed here, is by those who turn away from the obvious truth. Even when the evidence is set before them, they will not consider it, or acknoledge it.What do you refer to as 'the obvious truth' in that sentence? I don't need evidence to recognize truth, and you shouldn't either. Maybe you're trying to find proof to bolster your own faith? Otherwise you'd stand firm upon the justification of that faith. But you'd rather place your justification in another person, or discoveries of physical evidence. That will never yield results.

What if your salvation was dependent upon G-d getting 5 references of your worthiness, from people that were both known by you and G-d, all of whom had already received the seal of approval in the same manner? How much would you believe, then? How likely do you think it would be to achieve salvation in that manner? G-d is supreme and divine, you say so yourself. Why do you require more stringent qualifications of his word than he does of your worthiness to receive such word?

More examples:Matthew 10:14 *And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Mark 9:37 *Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me.

Luke 18:17 *Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

Little children don't ask for proof of the tooth fairy, grinches who steal christmas, or of the cow jumping over the moon. They just believe you because they love you and trust your love for them.

[campbell34]

The only truth needed to support the scripture is found within it. i.e. John 14:6 *Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Not Ron Wyatt, not Moses, not Pharoah, not the Church fathers, and not the pope. Not by means of any proof. The proof is in the pudding, as they say.

I agree with that. They want a god they can look away from, more precisely. Therefore, don't you realize that until you tailor a god to allow them their comforts and attachments to the world, that there will always be a reason some people will give for not believing? If they don't believe, after they've had the opportunity to hear, what else can a person do? Why spend the rest of your time here tap dancing around a bunch of non-resolvable points of contention that will never be resolved anyway? If you somehow 'prove' the bible really happened, verbatim, are those with hardened hearts suddenly going to see the light? Just because you showed factual evidence? Is that going to make what it says any more true than it is, 'non proven'? Why try to convert the world to your line of thinking in a futile exercise which is just as much a distraction from your own spiritual affairs as greed and all worldly things can be? Who are you helping? Who are you hurting?

Exactly. What makes you think they are going to love truth now, put forth in a less potent manner than He did? He didn't go around trying to 'prove' who He was or present any authority for his words other than He who sent Him. Period. He tried to keep Himself a secret as well, since He knew how fond this world is of truth. Example:Matthew 7:6 *Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. If someone earnestly desires to know Him, they will find the door to knock upon. Example: Matthew 15:26 *But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. Matthew 15:27 *And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

So who's telling Jesus's story, the sake of which all these efforts at proof are supposedly for? To someone who already believes, they are just unnecessary, and to those who don't believe, they mean nothing. They never will, until there is first trust and faith used as salve for blind eyes.
Sure it is, however, I say almost the same thing to myself each time I find a new enlightenment when reading the bible. Which is every single time I read it, and that is every day. I don't need National Geographic to back my claim, either.

There was more than one discovery of valuble biblical texts found in like manner in the same area, 2 years prior, yet no one wants to read them or count them valid. The are just like the canonized bible, and the DSS, they are verifiable within themselves and alongside the other two. What richer discovery could there be than more of the words of Jesus?!? Why wouldn't they be the words of Jesus, and more truth? Because they weren't canonized by the early church? Who did that? Jesus? G-d? Or humans desiring to control their vast empire with the fear induced by forced ignorance of the truth. If they'd had their way, there'd be no reason to try to prove the bible, as they would be the only ones owning one. Fortunately, it's not that way, and we have no reason not to research it for our self.

What do you refer to as 'the obvious truth' in that sentence? I don't need evidence to recognize truth, and you shouldn't either. Maybe you're trying to find proof to bolster your own faith? Otherwise you'd stand firm upon the justification of that faith. But you'd rather place your justification in another person, or discoveries of physical evidence. That will never yield results.

What if your salvation was dependent upon G-d getting 5 references of your worthiness, from people that were both known by you and G-d, all of whom had already received the seal of approval in the same manner? How much would you believe, then? How likely do you think it would be to achieve salvation in that manner? G-d is supreme and divine, you say so yourself. Why do you require more stringent qualifications of his word than he does of your worthiness to receive such word?

More examples:Matthew 10:14 *And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Mark 9:37 *Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me.

Luke 18:17 *Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

Little children don't ask for proof of the tooth fairy, grinches who steal christmas, or of the cow jumping over the moon. They just believe you because they love you and trust your love for them.
As a Christian, I care about a persons soul. If all I had was religion I would take the same jaded approach. I would casually walk down the street, and seeing a non christians house on fire I would say to myself, he had time to read his bible to bad for him let him burn. Yet, those who love the lord love these people. I can tell by the way some people speak, that they have religion but they don't have Jesus. Because when you have the Lord in your heart you go the extra mile to convince others that the bible is more than a story book. It really is the word of God. I remember years ago how I had told a friend of mine about Jesus and for years he rejected everything I said. Then one day God gave me something that would prove to him that the bible was true. The evidence so convinced him, that he gave his life to Christ, then his brother became a Christian, and right after that his sister became one to. Sometimes all it takes is a little evidence to change a heart. If I had taken the position that you don't believe well you can go to hell, they probably would of. The God of the bible has left proofs of it's validity which is turning hearts to Christ. Unfortunatly to many Christians ingnore these proofs and are allowing the world to slip deeper into darkness.

I don't need evidence to recognize truth?

Well good for you, but some people are convinced that the bible is true when presented with such evidence. So realizing there are people like this you would say forget them, and the evidence, let them burn, don't waste your time on them.
Well sorry, that's not my kind of Christianity. I will use what ever God gives me to win these precrious people to Christ.

Physical evidence that will never yield results?

Your wrong again, anytime you see evidence that is true it strengths your faith all the more. It's like the East gate in Jerusalem. It stands sealed just as the bible proclaimed it would. Just one more piece of evidence that builds and strengthen's the faith of the believer. Because it stands as a testament to God's truth. Only someone working against God would try to hide these facts.

[bandit28]

queenannie,

I understand what you are saying. I agree with you on that if a person calling himself a Christian needs to see these things with his own eyes to believe, then somethingwas missing from the beginging. Perhaps that is what some of these peopel are doing. However, I must agree with campbell in that we as Christians use all the tools God has given us to attempt to shed light on non believers. In our attempts to spread The Word we often find ourselves turned away because they do not want to believe what is written. With some non believers all that is needed is The Bible and someone to talk with them about it. To others, more is needed. So in that case, if you have something mentioned in The Book you love and cherrish come forth and able to be seen, then there are those non believers that will see it as truth and their lives will be changed forever.

Let me put this scenerio in front of you.

You are walking alone the road one day to the store. You come across a few people that notice you are carrying a Bible. They approach you and begin to ask you questions about how this and that are possible. Not to far away from you there stands a man listening in on the conversation. He to has these questions and is very curious but not in the ridaculing manners as the others. The few begin to question you on Noahs Ark and the possability of it all. They ask you about the dinosaurs and what happened to them. Because you do not have the worldly proof you need to exaplin to them, you are at a loss of words. They laugh at you and call you out as a fraud. You are not really bothered by this as your faith is stong in God. You decided to "turn the other cheeck" and go on about your shoping. However, at that same time, the man watching and listening has made up his mind that what he is seeking is not found here. He walks away with questions unanswered and eternity in Heaven lost.

Had you done the research outside of The Bible and yet use The Bible, you could have talked about the human remains found at the same level where dinosaurs are found. You could have mentioned that these dinosaurs were wiped out not by a huge meteor, but by a flood. So many things you could have proven to be right. In the end, they would make their decisions, and with hardened heart could have been like Pharoe and still denied God. However, just as Moses was instructed to try, so should you.

[queenannie]

As a Christian, I care about a persons soul. If all I had was religion I would take the same jaded approach. Are you saying my approach is jaded? Judge me not, just because you think you know where I am coming from and that what I say must mean what you would mean if you had said the things I did. I don't have any religion, religion is just politics and deception, designed to control the masses. I am the most unjaded that I've ever been in my life, but that's another topic.

I can tell by the way some people speak, that they have religion but they don't have Jesus. Because when you have the Lord in your heart you go the extra mile to convince others that the bible is more than a story book. More judgment. You don't know what's in my heart, and think because I don't think like you and speak like you that I don't have Jesus. You are a direct product of the world's religion, my friend, but you're too set in your own ideas to be receptive. You're not understanding what I'm saying. Does everything useful in instruction have to be 100% verified facts? In no way did I ever say the bible wasn't the word of G-d, I understand that more than you realize. Taking it as a storybook may be the best advice one could give another when they truly care. Maybe I should rephrase, and say a parable. The bible is a parable of parables, even the OT. That's the key to it. If I didn't care, do you think I'd be writing any of this? It's not like I have anything to prove, about myself or the bible, especially on this forum. Your view is narrow and your mind is set, so that makes you think I'm jaded and I don't have Jesus. I used to think just like you, with one difference: I wasn't bullheaded. When someone once told me the bible was allegory, instead of reacting, I responded and just filed it away, not believing but not rejecting. A short time later, I was reading some parable, and suddenly I saw something I hadn't before. I can't be specific, I can't remember. It was merely a slight slant to my understanding, which changed my comprehension, and a domino effect followed. When I compare myself with before that to after, I know I am not misguided. Your heart will tell you what's true, and it won't ask for proof. Same for everyone.
Sometimes all it takes is a little evidence to change a heart.How about an open mind? If I had taken the position that you don't believe well you can go to hell, they probably would of. Do you actually think it would be determined by your actions? Your actions are yours, your responsibilities are contained in your own sphere. I understand that I can't convert every non-believer into a believer. Idealists don't make good believers, you believe in everything just because you believe in something. Our jobs are to illuminate the path, and be an example to others through our lives, not be champions of the lost souls. That's another product of religion. It's also arrogant and not in your best interests. You're ignoring your own development. The God of the bible has left proofs of it's validity which is turning hearts to Christ. Unfortunatly to many Christians ingnore these proofs Actually, too many 'christians' ignore the upkeep of their faith. Most just pick a church or a doctrine, or adopt an understanding of what they perceive Jesus is all about, and then they're set, in stone. Somehow that constitutes 'faith' for most. That's bullheadedness, or in a biblical word, a hardened heart. The proof you seek to show others is actually for yourself, but you don't see that, either.

Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Did Jesus say we should heal them? No, we've got a big enough job to do already, just concerning ourselves.

Let's say this proof is really for the purpose you say. You convinced someone to believe in Jesus because you proved the bible was 'real' (what exactly do you mean by that anyway?), and you've done your christian duty. What happens when something happens in that person's life that overwhelms the actions of your 'proving', or that proof is somehow rendered no longer proof, due to mistaken research or some such potential human error? What's going to keep them firm? Not faith, because that was not the foundation in the first place. You're building castles on the sand of humanity instead of the rock of G-d! It's not your job to prove the bible, it's your job to testify as to your own faith. But you don't even understand what I mean.

Matthew 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.



Well good for you, but some people are convinced that the bible is true when presented with such evidence. So that makes it possible for them to have faith, because it's been shown to be true, since the bible speaks of it and you've proven the bible? That's not faith.

to be continued...

[queenannie]

Continued…

So realizing there are people like this you would say forget them, and the evidence, let them burn, don't waste your time on them. Where do you get these misunderstandings of what I say? No, what I'm saying is that if they don't thirst for it after it's introduced, you can't make them thirsty!!!!

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

I wonder if you even read the bible seriously, because even literally, I would understand certain things Jesus said. You seem to just disregard the very words attributed to the living Word, for even if the bible is the word of G-d, Jesus is the Word.

Mark 8:18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?

Well sorry, that's not my kind of Christianity. I will use what ever God gives me to win these precrious people to Christ. God didn't give you anything to 'win these precious people to Christ'--that's not your job! Are such a sage and learned christian that you have been assigned this duty for mankind? That's the same attitude Paul infected the church with, and it's called 'religion'. Jesus is the only source of true freedom, and it's not about control and conversion. It's a personal matter, not a mission for super christian.

Physical evidence that will never yield results? Not in spiritual matters, not on a permanent basis. Again, read the words of Jesus.

Your wrong again, anytime you see evidence that is true it strengths your faith all the more. It's like the East gate in Jerusalem. It stands sealed just as the bible proclaimed it would. Just one more piece of evidence that builds and strengthen's the faith of the believer. Because it stands as a testament to God's truth. Only someone working against God would try to hide these facts.Who's trying to hide these 'facts'? Facts are of the world. Truth is of the spirit. The evidence is within me, not found in the things I see with my eyes. I have eyes that see, not eyes that are blind. Nothing of the world is proof of G-d, except how it feels when you feel absolutely sure of what you say, without need to reference anything except the authority of G-d. Again, I say, read the bible that you're trying so hard to prove.

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.
14 Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.
...
17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.


Sure all the stuff in the OT happened, that's not proof of Jesus, at all. This kind of proof is actually misleading and dangerous for both you and your targets for conversion. Are you converting them to Judaism? Or Christianity? Do you realize the differences in leadership between the two? YHVH is not the Father Jesus speaks about, and maybe there's another source for all these things that deceive you into thinking you know what 'proof' is and what to do with it. Read the gospels carefully and you'll realize that not once does Jesus say his Father is the same god of the Pharisees and Sadducees, descended from Abraham.

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord , Sit thou on my right hand,...
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ .

Now I'm assuming that you understand the subtle meaning in verse 34, The LORD said unto my Lord. LORD in all caps means the text originally said YHVH, this is a universal fact of all translations. We've got YHVH, Jesus, and G-d, all represented there. YHVH is not G-d! How many times does Jesus refer to the Father as LORD? Not once! In fact the only times in the four gospels, and Acts, that LORD is mentioned is Matthew 22:44, Mark 12:36, Luke 20:42, and Acts 2:34. All in the telling of this same story of David.
How can you prove anything or speak on the authority of G-d, when you don't even realize that the OT LORD and G-d, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, are not one in the same?!?!? Research it yourself, if you don't believe me. I wish you would. I'm trying to ruffle your feathers and upset you for a reason, not to prove that I'm right or that you're not, or that only I know what is truth and what isn't. I do not believe I am any more qualified to know truth than you are. I do believe in the truth, and I know that what has been revealed to me is available to all who seek truth through Jesus. That's why I say there's more to it than you realize, because there is. I wish you'd get riled up enough to check it out for yourself, even if to 'prove' me wrong. Whatever it takes to stir things up, because they're stagnant. And I know that you don't want that, I know that you truly love the Lord, just as I do. Not all love of G-d looks just like yours, or mine.

Read Luke 8:4-21.
Does that make any sense to you, in regard to what I am saying?

[queenannie]

Bandit, thank you for your views, I appreciate that you see what I mean. As well, I see what you are saying, but I can show you more about the example that you gave that might clarify what I'm trying to get across.So in that case, if you have something mentioned in The Book you love and cherrish come forth and able to be seen, then there are those non believers that will see it as truth and their lives will be changed forever.I couldn't agree with you more, and I do have that opportunity quite often, although not specifically with these questions. No one's ever presented me with the flood vs dinosaur thing (except my own self).

Here's my version of this scenario:

They approach you and begin to ask you questions about how this and that are possible. Not to far away from you there stands a man listening in on the conversation. He to has these questions and is very curious but not in the ridaculing manners as the others. The few begin to question you on Noahs Ark and the possability of it all. They ask you about the dinosaurs and what happened to them. Because you do not have the worldly proof you need to exaplin to them, you are at a loss of words. This is where it changes.

I wouldn't have the worldly proof with me, per se, but I do have facts in my head which I would gladly share, and I would say this:

“The extinction of the dinosaurs happened several billion years ago, this is verified by any short search into the history of mass extinctions, as also is the fact of the presence of hominids such as cro-magnon man, Neanderthal man, with the last known pre human hominid being a couple of million years ago. The fifth, and last mass extinction occurred about that time, as well as a significant climate change. So the earth was in essence starting over. Although in the canonized bible I carry, it says ‘In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, and the earth was formless and empty…’ this is actually a result of a mistranslation from the Hebrew when the KJV was translated. There were only 3 Hebrew translators involved in that project, with two dying before it was finished, and none of the three were actually a Hebrew scholar. Now, I’m not a Hebrew Scholar, either, but I am learning Hebrew, and what I have learned, from scholars who understand the differences between the ancient Hebrew, the King’s English employed in the KJV, and our modern English language, is that much has been lost in translation, although there are some that would disagree. They are not interested in these subtle differences that are very important. There are bibles which can make it easier for a new believer to find the original meaning as recorded by the Hebrew Scribes. Anyway, what I’m getting at, is the original first lines of Genesis actually read ‘In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth became waste, darkness was over the surface of the abyss, and the spirit of God was hovering over the waters.’ Now that’s congruent with the findings regarding past species on earth, including dinosaurs and hominids.
There are those that wish to say that the bible’s story of creation is the absolute creation of the earth, and therefore the earth is only around 6000 years old, because that’s the figure they arrive at from biblical accounts. The first known civilization, according to anthropology studies, was ancient Sumeria, in Mesopotamia (where Iraq is today). These people invented the wheel and also the cuneiform alphabet. This is also where Ur of the Chaldees was, where ‘father’ Abraham, that father of the jewish people, was originally from. This area is between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, and most biblical scholars claim that is where the Garden of Eden was. The history of the Sumerians has been traced back to about 6000 years ago. Scientists have found data supporting more than one flood, as many were caused by catastrophic earthly events. There is an opinion by some that the flood of Noah flooded just the Mediterranean basin, and this has been shown to have occurred. The world of man was still known to itself in that small area, and to the people then, that was the ‘world’. All civilizations dating from that time have a very similar flood story, as well as a creation story. Creation is not about the beginning of this planet. It’s been here far longer than we have. Creation refers to the origins of the race of humanity that now inhabits the Earth. So it seems that the regular scientists and the biblical scholars really don’t have any differences in opinion, just maybe different belief