my basic understanding of god...

[mynameiskc]

tells me that god is everywhere, with everyone. believer and non-believer, christian and non-christian. therefore it's inherently foolish to ignore the wisdom that other peoples have collected over their time on this earth. there is beauty and wisdom in all faiths, even if you may disagree with certain aspects of their practice, it would be foolish to ignore everything they have to say. the sacredness of the earth taught by the animists, the sacredness of sexuality taught by various hindu sects, the importance of critical thinking taught by atheists. it's all worthwhile, listen up.

[Real American]

My God tells me that I only need to ask for his wisdom. I don't need to look at other peoples perversions to learn anything. God gave me a brain and I use it. The Holy Spirit helps me make decisions based on God's will in mt life. To me, this is a no brainer. You say listen up, I say pray more.

[mynameiskc]

but you're losing out on a whole lot of understanding of your fellow children of god. i pray constantly, more of a constant conversation. i learn something that strikes me a particular wise or profound, i ask god about it. don't limit your options. the strong in faith are never really intimidated by alternate knowledge sources. but perhaps it is not your place or your particular walk to do so. we all have different walks with god, different topics of conversation.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

mynameiskc, you are truly wise...in the long run all religions are fundimentally the same...they are only different because of different cultures...in the end, its the same God, no matter what you call Him. :)

[campbell34]

mynameiskc, you are truly wise...in the long run all religions are fundimentally the same...they are only different because of different cultures...in the end, its the same God, no matter what you call Him. :)
-Then Jesus was a liar because he claimed He was the only way

[roly]

My God tells me that I only need to ask for his wisdom. I don't need to look at other peoples perversions to learn anything. God gave me a brain and I use it. The Holy Spirit helps me make decisions based on God's will in mt life. To me, this is a no brainer. You say listen up, I say pray more.

Amen!!! i'm in total agreement with you!

roly.xxx

[mother_nature's_son]

"in the long run all religions are fundimentally the same...they are only different because of different cultures...in the end, its the same God, no matter what you call Him."



-Then Jesus was a liar because he claimed He was the only way
Precisely...

[campbell34]

mother_nature's_son,

-No other religions have fulfilled prophecies as the Bible does. That is what seperates the Bible from all the rest. Jesus fulfilled all the 300+ prophecies in the old testiment....Which one did He lie on?

[mynameiskc]

i definitely believe the in the acts, actions and wisdom of jesus. however, i wouldn't put it past a few apostles to lie and politicize his actions in order to further propagate the message. people always have wanted a bit of magic and certainty. i do, however, still believe in christ's sacrifice for me and cherish it. i also, however, am tremendously grateful for the sacrifices of other loving saints in other cultures and faiths.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

"in the long run all religions are fundimentally the same...they are only different because of different cultures...in the end, its the same God, no matter what you call Him."


-Then Jesus was a liar because he claimed He was the only way


Precisely...
Perhaps you misunderstood what I mean...yes, Jesus, He is His son and He was the saviour...

...but I can't really explain what I meant without getting blasted or digging myself in a deeper hole...

Umm...yes, Jesus is the Son of God...but I wasn't talking about him, I was talking about God, the creator... God has many other names besides Jehova, he is also Krishna, Allah, and many other names...but in the end...isn't it still God...

And, I am a Christian, but I don't really remember Jesus ever saying he was God...just saying...yes He saved us...but I just don't distinctly remember it ever being said by Jesus that He was God...He might just be...but I don't remember him (not any other book of the Bible) say it...

[mother_nature's_son]

mother_nature's_son,

-No other religions have fulfilled prophecies as the Bible does. That is what seperates the Bible from all the rest. Jesus fulfilled all the 300+ prophecies in the old testiment....Which one did He lie on?
The bible fulfills prophecy within itself.

Your argument here holds no weight if Jesus's character was a fabrication-
and there is no way you could prove this not to be true.

An accurate, written account of history does not exist- and cannot exist.

-Science- has exponentially greater amounts of integrity than your storybook.

Science will tell you that, fundamentally, all humans are the same
and culture is what makes this difficult for many of us to see.

Through cultural isolation and human pride, come worldviews such as the one you, campbell, portray.
"I know the truth, and this separates my religion from the rest."

[mynameiskc]

the phrase that leads people to believe the jesus was god is the beginning of John in which he says "in the beginning was the Word (jesus). and the Word was with God and the Word WAS God." however, i take this to be the well-intentioned but inherently untrue statement of a man dazzled by his teacher and wanting to propagate his message.


there's a book, Snow Crash, a techno novel, stephen something or other wrote it. but within this really cool action novel dealing with fascinating technological issues, is some truly genius commentary on the infection of the christian message by more mystical religious messages popular long before the advent of the christ.

[peacefulwind14]

It is true that there is much wisdom throughout all religions and to neglect that wisdom is ones choice, but I choose to expose myself to it. I find it helpful to see what the other children of God believe and I enjoy learning about it. I pray everyday and talk with God frequently. Though many of the organized religions will proclaim itself as the only way thus having its followers focused and believe only one book. Which is fine as long as you allow and critsize others for following a different path.

[campbell34]

The bible fulfills prophecy within itself.

-No, the Bible predicts future world events that the writers could not of known unless God had told them. Much of the prophecies deal with the world that we are living in today. It even fortells whats going to happen to America.

"Your argument here holds no weight if Jesus's character was a fabrication-and there is no way you could prove this not to be true.

An accurate, written account of history does not exist- and cannot exist."

-Yes it does exist in the Bible and also there are independent writings that verify Biblical events.


"Science- has exponentially greater amounts of integrity than your storybook.

Science will tell you that, fundamentally, all humans are the same
and culture is what makes this difficult for many of us to see."

-The story book that you mention had information that took science thousands of years to learn.


For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.-1 Timothy 4:3,4

You are living proof of this time period

[mother_nature's_son]

the Bible predicts future world events that the writers could not of known unless God had told them. Much of the prophecies deal with the world that we are living in today. It even fortells whats going to happen to America.The bible is true because it fulfills prophecy that hasn't happened yet? hmmm...


"Your argument here holds no weight if Jesus's character was a fabrication-and there is no way you could prove this not to be true.

An accurate, written account of history does not exist- and cannot exist."

-Yes it does exist in the Bible and also there are independent writings that verify Biblical events.You are going to have to do ALOT better than that my friend.


"Science- has exponentially greater amounts of integrity than your storybook.

-The story book that you mention had information that took science thousands of years to learn. Can you be serious? Please, give your best example of this.

The bible couldn't even figure out that the Earth is in orbit.


For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.-1 Timothy 4:3,4

You are living proof of this time periodThis time period? What this describes has been happening as long as Christianity itself has existed.

Simply replace the term 'sound doctrine' with 'science'.
This 'prophecy' is anything but unique.

Is this the type of 'prophecy' you refer to when you say:
"the Bible predicts future world events that the writers could not of known unless God had told them." ?
...cause if it is, I suggest you find an entirely new approach to defending your faith.

[Jatom]

And, I am a Christian, but I don't really remember Jesus ever saying he was God...just saying...yes He saved us...but I just don't distinctly remember it ever being said by Jesus that He was God...He might just be...but I don't remember him (not any other book of the Bible) say it...Here's a Quick look:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God... And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. In the first part the passage "In the beginning was the Word" John is eluding to Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created..." but with one difference: Genesis 1:1 starts from the beginning and moves forward in time, while John 1:1 starts from the beginning and moves backward into eternity "In the beginning God created" vs "In the beginning was." So the passage claims that the Word was with God and was God throughout all eternity? John 1:14 further makes it clear that the Word was Jesus: "And the Word became flesh..."
One of the clearest claims to divinity is John 8:58 where Jesus replies to the Jews: "before Abraham was born, I AM" which is the same name God gives himself in Exodus 3:14: "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you" I AM being the name from which YAHWEH, (usually written as LORD in the Old Testament) derived. Thus Jesus was equating Himself with that sacred name of God; the Jews recognized the implications of His claim and sought to stone Him the very next verse.
The "Son of Man" passages. "Son of Man" referring to "a heir or successor to royaltly," and when given in the context of Daniel 7:13--I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days [Or God] And was presented before Him"--the title has very profound implications. In the very next verse the "Son of Man" is given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed. By Jesus using the title "Son of Man" He is equating Himself with the Son of Man metioned in Daniel 7:13, and thus, I believe, making a claim to divinity.
Jesus claimed the ability to forgive sin, which is an example of Jesus claiming something that the Jews would have recognized only as a perogative of God.
Obviously, this is only a start, (we could look at the meaning logos (the Word mentioned in John 1:1-2;14) in it's historic philosophical context in comparison with ancient wisdom literature and theology, or both Old and New Testament passages that help to confirm the divinity of Christ and the Trinity, but this would take to much time and space) but what I have presented are just some reasons why I believe Jesus is God.

[mynameiskc]

in reference to point number two stated above, here's a point where my ability and lack of fear in studying other philosophies has given me a somewhat liberal understanding of christ using the name "I AM." god is all things, in all things, including all the rest of us humble beings. therefore, we are god, part of the body of god, our souls are pieces of his soul, all one soul in fact. so jesus referring to himself as god isn't merely a reference to the jewish concept of the I AM, but a more universal understanding that jesus had of the true nature of god and his relationship to his children. that of oneness. i think, however, that some of the limited undertanding that his apostles had, being mostly influenced by the jewish paradigm of a seperate patriarchal god clouded their understanding of what christ was really trying to get across with his message, "follow me, i'll show you how to accept your oneness with god."

[loverofthewoods]

tells me that god is everywhere, with everyone. believer and non-believer, christian and non-christian. therefore it's inherently foolish to ignore the wisdom that other peoples have collected over their time on this earth. there is beauty and wisdom in all faiths, even if you may disagree with certain aspects of their practice, it would be foolish to ignore everything they have to say. the sacredness of the earth taught by the animists, the sacredness of sexuality taught by various hindu sects, the importance of critical thinking taught by atheists. it's all worthwhile, listen up.
there just isnt enough christians like you these days...excellent thoughts there

[mynameiskc]

well, just like i said in another thread, there's quite a few of us out there, we're just pretty quiet, since we usually prefer to listen.

[Jatom]

mynameiskc,

I have to disagree, but thanks for sharing you point. First, the "I AM" name is one that the Jews understood as the sacred name of a personal higher being that was the creator of all.. I can understand your point: By Christ claiming the "I AM" name He was claiming to be a part of God, and also claiming that we all are also a part of God. But this view can only be correct under certain conditions.

One such conditions is where Christ stood authoritatively. Did Christ claim to possess a higher authority, that is, can His "I AM" proclamation be said to be true only Him, and no others? Did He set Himself higher then any man?

1. As mentioned before He called himself the "Son of Man" which by very implication set himself higher than any man.

2. As also mentioned before, He claimed the ability to forgive sins. This is something that was recognized as something only God could do. (Also, at one point in his ministry, Christ delegates His authority to the apostles [Matthew 10:1; Luke 9:1-2]. In this event the power to forgive sins, IS NOT delegated, indeed this is something that only God possesses. Also, delegation is a sign of authority, in other words, you must first have the authority before you give it. Here the authority is given to the apostles meaning that Christ Himself is higher in authority then they.)

3. John 14:6 records Jesus as claiming to be the only way to the Father. This further sets Christ apart and of higher authority then any man.

4. In the correct cultural context Jesus' very position as a patron in a patron/client relationship, puts Him at a position of higher authority.

Even with the relatively short list, I believe it's clear that Christ did, in fact set Himself higher in authority then any man. In this context it very unlikely that Christ meant anything else but "I am God" with His "I AM" statement. You mention that the apostles were mostly "influenced by the jewish paradigm of a seperate patriarchal god" but don't forget that Jesus was also a Jew and was influenced by this same paradigm, in fact He presumed it. At any rate, I don't think there's any reason to believe that Christ held to some form of pantheism

[inlikened]

now what i believe is that all people in the world are just persuing happiness and wisdom in the life they were given and i dont understand why people would use the negative energy it takes to fight over whose god is better or more righteous because as long as that particular person is happy with the god or gods or buddah or earth or anything that they worship why would they concern themselves with trying to convert others that feel this same way about other facets of god to thier own way why can people not realize that no matter what a person believes it is how they treat those that believe diffrently that shows what they really think

[rasa4jc]

A humanistic thinking would indeed rather include all religions and all peoples together and say "Why can't we all learn from eachother and get along? Why is it that we have to fight about something that seems to be almost the same anyways? We all believe in a higher power, so what is wrong with believing one over the other or the other over the one?"

Honestly, that seems to be a pretty good arguement from human perspective. But... (there is always that "but") God is a spirit and not a human. Therefore we must think outside of the human arena and understand Him in the spiritual. There can only be one true God. One Creator and Judge to rule over all of creation and its injustices. So therefore only one religion must be correct. This is not some arguement that even a Bible needs to back up. The simplest mind can gather that information. There cannot be two true God's co-existing. So... now that that is true, we now must think on wether there is a God or not before we can argue over which one it the true one.
Last time I checked: in order for creation to exist, there must be a Creator. Never ever in the existance of the "modern science" experiements has a scientist ever ever ever been able to make living cells from non-living matter. Never. It is not possible. It cannot be done my man. And let us just imagine for a moment that they happened to creat living cells before from non-living material, they need to multiply in order to survive. For this to happen, there needs to be other living cells around them to feed off of and gain material to produce from. An imposibility without a Creator.
So now we know there is a God. We see creation, and that is enough proof. Denial of creation is denying that God has made us inteligent beings(but rather we are only by chance who we are and are therefore no better than a cell of bacteria... I would therefore have no purpose in life and might as well die). Now, the journy begins on finding which God is the true God.
Well, this may seem overwhelming to some people. There are so many to choose from. Well let's start out simple. Any idol or images made to be like a God are false. That would be redicualous to make a God and bow down to it if it was supposed to have made you. Remember, anything created by man could not have been man's Creator. So that knocks down a few possibilities. Now... any religions that don't have a Savior are pretty much rubish too. Because if God is perfect, then he also judges perfectly. He cannot allow any wrong to go unpunished because he is perfect. Only an imperfect God would allow sin to go unpunished. If they let it go, they would compromise their character. So a Savior would need to be provided to stand in place of man for punishment for that sin. And it couldn't just be anyone or anything to stand in the place as a punishment offering. It would need to be human. It would need to be human because they are standing in for human. (eye for an eye). But since no human is perfect, this person would also have to be God. They would have to be perfect, or else the sacrifice would be no good. It would just be a sinner dying in place for a sinner. So this "person" would have to be 100% human and 100% God(since only God can be perfect).

So it all comes down to Jesus Christ- dying on the cross to take away the sins of the world. It has nothing to do with how appealing the message is to the world. It has nothing to do with the wise sayings in the religion. It has nothing to do with how pretty "mother nature" is how nice we should be to others. It has to do with the condition of Man(sinful) and the solution to reconcile them back to a perfect God(Jesus).

I will be honest. Many religions have nice sayings. They seem to be very wise and nice. They might even seem similar to the God of the Bible. But even if the whole religion is almost exactly that of the Bible, it is deception. Deception is 99% accurate and 1% lie. And no matter how true that 99% is... the 1% is still a lie.

And people... I urge you to read the Bible and see if it prooves true in your own life. I am not telling you that you must believe. I cannot make one person "convert". But if you believe in "a god", then pray and ask God to show you if he is really the God of the Bible. Pick up the Bible and read the New Testiment and then read the Old Testiment. Then read it again. And again if you need to. But only after that will you know. It is better to find out now than later, because sooner or later it will be found out anyway. And before death would be the wisest choice.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

I agree with most of what you are saying...


But I disagree that just the Christian way is the only way...you go on about how all religions are nice and wise...and they are, but in the end you come up with the Christian way as being the best...and I can't agree. No way is better than any other...God is God at the end of it all...I probably won't change anyone's mind...I don't really care in what way you all believe in Him, but I'm just saying that one of the problems with the world today is that we are all so convinced that our way is right that we go to wars about it, killing in His name...and I don't think that that is what He wants...it goes against His rules...

Maybe I believe this because I follow two religions...both a Christian and a Hare Krishna...but...I don't know...I just can't believe that only one group is right and that the Lord only cares about one group...we're all humans, every single one of us...and I find it hard to believe that He would be choosy about who loves Him better...as long as you love Him and follow His rules as best you can, does it matter? At least you do...

[mynameiskc]

my rebuttals? this is good. my remarks are set aside by a hyphen.

mynameiskc,

I have to disagree, but thanks for sharing you point. First, the "I AM" name is one that the Jews understood as the sacred name of a personal higher being that was the creator of all.. I can understand your point: By Christ claiming the "I AM" name He was claiming to be a part of God, and also claiming that we all are also a part of God. But this view can only be correct under certain conditions.

One such conditions is where Christ stood authoritatively. Did Christ claim to possess a higher authority, that is, can His "I AM" proclamation be said to be true only Him, and no others? Did He set Himself higher then any man?

1. As mentioned before He called himself the "Son of Man" which by very implication set himself higher than any man.

-i've never really been clear on why calling himself the son of man sets him above men. after all, am i also not the daughter of man? are you not the son of man? we're all children come down through mankind.

2. As also mentioned before, He claimed the ability to forgive sins. This is something that was recognized as something only God could do. (Also, at one point in his ministry, Christ delegates His authority to the apostles [Matthew 10:1; Luke 9:1-2]. In this event the power to forgive sins, IS NOT delegated, indeed this is something that only God possesses. Also, delegation is a sign of authority, in other words, you must first have the authority before you give it. Here the authority is given to the apostles meaning that Christ Himself is higher in authority then they.)

-also, on this point, are we not all called upon to forgive the trespasses of our brethren? if we consider this outside of the traditional judeo christian concepts, which surely christ was able to operate above, aren't we all his students? in the lord's prayer, where we're given the words "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us," jesus sets us upon a level with the lord, since he will forgive our sins against him the same as we forgive the sins against us. we've been there put on a nearly equal footing with the lord.

3. John 14:6 records Jesus as claiming to be the only way to the Father. This further sets Christ apart and of higher authority then any man.

-indeed, by following the teachings of love, forgiveness and and devotion to god, we will therefore be permenently connected to god. also, in sacrificing our selves and comforts to the community out of love for them and for god, we have gained access. jesus' way of total love, total generaosity, forgiveness and sacrifice for his fellow children of god is the only way.

4. In the correct cultural context Jesus' very position as a patron in a patron/client relationship, puts Him at a position of higher authority.

-not so. jesus was not limited to a single cultural context. jesus, being perfect, being greater than the sum of his parts, is not limited in his wisdom to a single paradigm created by history and culture.

Even with the relatively short list, I believe it's clear that Christ did, in fact set Himself higher in authority then any man. In this context it very unlikely that Christ meant anything else but "I am God" with His "I AM" statement. You mention that the apostles were mostly "influenced by the jewish paradigm of a seperate patriarchal god" but don't forget that Jesus was also a Jew and was influenced by this same paradigm, in fact He presumed it. At any rate, I don't think there's any reason to believe that Christ held to some form of pantheism

-i don't think pantheism is the same as truly understanding what it means when god is everywhere, with everyone, in fact, the very basis of their matter and creation

[Jatom]

The reason why one argues is because he or she believes he has the correct (or at least more correct) view. With Christianity our view is that Christ is the only way so when someone says otherwise it's our belief that he or she is wrong.

Second, I don't believe your viewpoint is entirely coherent, but maybe you can clarify it for me. I get from your post that you believe it doesn't matter what one believes as long as it makes them happy. What if a person's belief system says that murdering new born children was correct, and this system made that particular person happy? Would you still opt not to interfere with his beliefs?

At any rate, at the base of the matter you're still arguing that your belief system is correct and that any other which does not conform to your system's base principle is incorrect, i.e, you're doing very thing you're preaching against. You state "why people would use the negative energy it takes to fight over whose god is better or more righteous because as long as that particular person is happy with the god or gods or buddah or earth or anything that they worship why would they concern themselves with trying to convert others that feel this same way about other facets of god" With this statement you are clearly stating that I, and any others who attempt to "convert" others, are wrong. "Just let the other party be happy in what they're doing." So what about if I'm happy with what I'm doing? Why are you atempting to change my beliefs? Why are you not following the very principle you expect me to follow.

Does that make sense? Do you see my point?

[mynameiskc]

i don't think it's a matter of chaning her beliefs so much as stating her own. i think we pretty much all understand here that people hold their beliefs dearly, when they have them, so trying to change someone's beliefs is like banging your head against a wall or trying to teach a pig to whistle.


i do think that christ is the way. but i also think that christ had a far greater understanding of the lord and the universe than has been set to paper by the judeo christian bible. i've found a closeness to both him and god by listening to the the very wisdom that has cemented people of other beliefs to their way.

the closest i get to any sort of missionary behavior is by trying to be the person christ told us to be, and leaving myself open to reasonable questions when they come. i don't know everything, but i do not what god has done for me, and how much better my life has been since accepting christ's teachings. there are peole who will be brought to god by more direct means (which many find to be a nuisance) but that's not my path.

[Jatom]

-i've never really been clear on why calling himself the son of man sets him above men. after all, am i also not the daughter of man? are you not the son of man? we're all children come down through mankind.

Son of Man "bar enash " means "heir or successor to royalty." In context of Daniel 7:13 the "Son of Man" bar enash meets with the Father and and is "given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed." The "Son of Man" here is a very specific person.

So what about me being a son of man? Jesus' Son of Man refers to "bar enash" while the son of man you referring to is "bar adam" The former refers to someone very specific while the latter to any person born a human. It can be said that Christ was a son of man but it cannot be said that I am the Son of Man.

-also, on this point, are we not all called upon to forgive the trespasses of our brethren? if we consider this outside of the traditional judeo christian concepts, which surely christ was able to operate above, aren't we all his students? in the lord's prayer, where we're given the words "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us," jesus sets us upon a level with the lord, since he will forgive our sins against him the same as we forgive the sins against us. we've been there put on a nearly equal footing with the lord.

True, but much like the son of man, Son of Man distinction, there is a distinction made here as well. You mentioned the Lords prayer which says "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." Notice the "against us." This forgiveness is limited to the wrong someone does against you, however you cannot forgive me for wronging my friend in someway. This is because the wrong I commit against a friend is not against you. As a matter of fact you know neither me nor my friend, and you saying "Tim I forgive you for wronging your friend" makes little sense. But this is just what Jesus did! Matthew 9:2 and Mark 2:5, and Luke 5:24 record an incident where Christ forgives a paralytic of his sins. Luke 5:24 says "But, so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,"--He said to the paralytic--"I say to you, get up, and pick up your stretcher and go home" after the scribes questioned is authority to forgive sins. The distinction here is that you and I have the authority to forgive those who sin against us, but Christ claimed to have the authority to forgive all sins ever commited.

-indeed, by following the teachings of love, forgiveness and and devotion to god, we will therefore be permenently connected to god. also, in sacrificing our selves and comforts to the community out of love for them and for god, we have gained access. jesus' way of total love, total generaosity, forgiveness and sacrifice for his fellow children of god is the only way.

" Thomas said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?"
Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."

Not Jesus' way is not the way to the Father, rather Jesus Himself is the way "I am the way"

-not so. jesus was not limited to a single cultural context.

But He was! The language he spoke was not our own. His manners and customs were not the same as our own. The clothes He wore were not the same as our own. The formation of society was not the same as our own. You can see this in how He taught, the examples He used, and how His formation of His relationship with us is similar to that of a patron/client relationship typical of the day.

Pantheism is "all is God, God is all" and that seemed to be what you were conveying. Sorry if I misunderstood you.

[mynameiskc]

thanks for those, jatom. i'll have to think on those, because i'm having a very difficult time accepting the main premise of the arguments, which seems to me to be to only view and accept christ through the jewish cultural paradigm. god and christ seem much bigger and universal to me than that. Son or Heir to Mankind. yes, he was, he inherited every sin we ever committed and died for it. i also don't see why i cannot forgive someone for sins they've committed against others. don't we have to do that every day with people we love? accept and forgive the sins they've inevitably committed against other people? sin against your brother, and you sin against ALL your brothers.

[campbell34]

mother nature's son,

"An accurate, written account of history does not exist-and cannot exist."

There is a story in the bible that has been dismissed as a fairy tale. It is the story about the Children of Israel leaving Egypt. The Pharaoh became angry as the Jews were leaving his land and decided to take 20,000 chariots and thousands of foot soldiers and slaughter the Children of Israel. As the Pharaoh pursued the Jews, God split the Red Sea and the bible states that the Jews walked the ten miles through the sea on dry ground. God held back the waters until the last Jew made it to the other side. With the Children of Israel safe God allowed the waters to come back together destroying Pharaoh's army. Sounds pretty far fetched.
Well as it turns out just a few years ago a man by the name of Ron Wyatt and his son discovered to seventeen foot long granite pillars laying in the sand on the opposite shores of the Red Sea, which is a distance of 10 miles. Carved in the pillars are ancient Hebrew words for Egypt, Death, Water, Pharaoh, Yahweh, and Solomon. It is believed that King Solomon had these columns erected 400 years after the crossing as a testament to Gods Power. Not far from the pillars are Inscriptions chiseled in stone that read.
"The wind blowing, the sea dividing into parts, they pass over" "The Hebrews flee through the sea; the sea is turned into dry land." "The waters permitted and dismissed to flow, burst rushing unawares upon the astonished men, congregated from quarters banded together to slay treacherously being lifted up with pride." The leader divideth asunder the sea, its waves roaring. The people enter, and pass through the midst of the waters. "Moses causeth the people to haste like a fleet-winged she-ostrich crying aloud; the cloud shining bright, a mighty army propelled into the Red sea is gathered into one; they go jumping and skipping. Journeying through the open channel, taking flight from the face of the enemy. The surge of the sea is divided." "The people flee, the tribes descend into the deep. The people enter the waters. The people enter and penetrate through the midst. The people are filled with stupor and perturbation. Jehovah is the keeper and companion." "Their enemies weep for the dead, the virgins are wailing. The sea flowing down overwhelmed them. The waters were let loose to flow again." The people depart fugitive. A mighty army is submerged in the deep sea, the only way of escape for the congregated people." Inscriptions END.
Now the discoveries keep coming. Divers are now going down to depths of 200 feet and finding numerous coral incrusted chariot wheels spears human and horse bones, the bottom is literally littered with the remnants of pharaoh's army. This is really a big story but don't hold your breath you will not see it on CNN. If you type, Red Sea Crossing, you will find a lot about this on line. The same account that was chiseled in stone, matches the account that was passed down to us in the Bible, and from what I can see, the account was accurate.

"The story book that you mention had information that took science thousands of years to learn. Can you be serious? Please, give your best example of this."

Suspension of the Earth
The ancient Egyptians believed that the earth floated on a river. Hindu mythology believed that the earth was supported on the back of four elephants. The ancient Greeks had the earth on the back of Atlas. Buddhist culture in the Pacific islands had the earth on the back of a giant catfish! Yet in the book of Job 26:7 He states that God spread out the skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing. The Bible is not a book of science, but its statements enforces the advanced knowledge of its author.

The Bottom of the Ocean
Until modern times people thought the ocean floor was sandy like the desert and saucer shaped-deepest in the middle. This was even true of the pre-1900 geologists. But in the 1900s oceanographers found the sea had many deep valleys or canyons.
3,000 years ago the Judeo-Christian Bible spoke of the valleys and mountains of the sea. In Psalm 18:15(NIV) and Job (38:16 NIV):

The Paths of the Sea
In the 1800s, Matthew Maury, an officer in the United States Navy believed his Bible. While reading Psalm 8 He was amazed that verse 8 spoke of the fish and all creatures that swim in the "paths of the sea." ‘Paths of the sea"-how could this be? He never knew there was such a thing, and neither did any one else. Maury set out to see if this were true and discovered that the oceans have many paths or currents, which were like rivers flowing through the sea. Maury wrote the first book on oceanography and became known as "the pathfinder of the seas" Maury received his idea about ocean currents from reading Psalm 8:8 which was written 3,000 years ago by King David. David wrote as he was moved by the Spirit of God and probably never actually saw an ocean.

"Is this the type of ‘prophecy' you refer to when you say:
"the bible predicts future world events that the writers could not of known unless God had told them.'?
...cause if it is, I suggest you find an entirely new approach to defending your faith."

No, that was just a very general prophecy. This is what the Bible predicts for the near future. Russia will return to a very hard line government. It will threaten America for two years with nuclear war. It will demand that America step down form its Mideast policy towards Israel. A mass exodus of people will leave America fearing nuclear war. America will step down and take a hands off policy towards Israel. Americans will feel safe after this policy change. Russia will attack Israel, but God will intervene and destroy five sixths of the invading Russian army. Russia will not believe this was an act of God, and will attack America. The United States will no longer be a functioning nation. America will be completely destroyed in one hours time. America will be completely radiated and will no longer be habitable. The Stars, and Sun will be dimmed. The moon will appear blood red. A new world leader will rise up to fill the void in the western world. He will have great power,so much so that he will be able to call fire down from the heavens in the sight of men, and the world will be saying who could make war with this man. He will demand that everyone receive his mark. It will appear either on their forehead or right hand. No one will be able to buy or sell with out this mark. If you refuse the mark you will be put to death. The world leader will have a clone made of Him, and the clone will be placed in a rebuilt Jewish temple on mount Moriah in Jerusalem. The population of the earth will be told that all people will worship the clone as God or die. The East gate which is just out side the temple of Jerusalem will remained sealed until Christ Returns again. The bible states that the last battle on earth will be for Jerusalem. The kings of the east will send an army of two hundred million men to the valley of Armageddon. There is so much more to be said. Yet, this is the kind of prophecy I am talking about.

[seamonster66]

Nostradamus must be god, because he has had more accurate predictions than anyone else


now get on your knees and worship him

[mynameiskc]

dig him up! we'll build a shrine.

[campbell34]

seamonster66,

"Nostradamus must be god, because he has had more accurate predictions than anyone else

now get on your knees and worship him"

-No, Nostradamas has many failed phrophecies, however everything the Bible has predicted up to this date has come true. Also, alot of things Nostradamas predicted he got from the Bible.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Ahh...lighten up...


Its a joke...

[Archemetis]

campbell- you always say the bible has fullfilled many prophesies, but i would tend to believe its more an interpretation issue...if you are looking for the prophesy to be fullfilled you can interpret an event as part of the prophesy whether or not it is....

so im interested, can you site a few scrictures and then the coorisponding events that you believe to be the fullfilled prophesy?? im not trying to set you up or anything, but im actually curious here.

[mother_nature's_son]

The same account that was chiseled in stone, matches the account that was passed down to us in the Bible, and from what I can see, the account was accurate.But how accurate is your interpretation of what you see?

In regard to science-

If the bible held actual scientific prophecies, they would be presented as such. Otherwise, these glimpses only support the idea that, contained in over 1000 pages, mere coincidence is easily mistaken for 'advanced knowledge'.

in the book of Job 26:7 He states that God spread out the skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing. And the bible also says that the earth was created in 7 days,
and that over 30 million species of animals boarded a boat.


Until modern times people thought the ocean floor was sandy like the desert and saucer shaped-deepest in the middle. This was even true of the pre-1900 geologists. But in the 1900s oceanographers found the sea had many deep valleys or canyons.
3,000 years ago the Judeo-Christian Bible spoke of the valleys and mountains of the sea. In Psalm 18:15(NIV) and Job (38:16 NIV)There has never been only a single idea of anything, especially not the shape of the ocean floor. Mountains on land, mountains in the water; not a hard connectiong to make -especially if you have a nice long anchor.


Maury set out to see if this were true and discovered that the oceans have many paths or currents, which were like rivers flowing through the sea. I can tell you right now that this guy didn't discover currents. Fishermen and sea-farers have known of currents for as long as they've floated upon the waters.

[SimpleMan]

-Then Jesus was a liar because he claimed He was the only way

Jesus Christ is the only way to God. There is only one way to the father and that is through the son.

[campbell34]

mother_nature's_son,

"If the bible held scientific prophecies, they would be presented as such."

1. We are not talking about prophecies.

2. We are talking about scientific facts.

3. No, the bible would not present them as such (scientific facts). Why would
you believe this. The Bible is not about science. Its about God and his relationship to man. Incidental scientific facts can be found there.

"And the bible also says that the earth was created in 7 days, and that over 30 million species of animals boarded a boat."

1. Yes the Bible did say it took 7 days to create the Earth, but you must understand that a day in Gods time is much longer than our 24 hour day. This is explained to us in 2 Peter 3. "But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." Another words 7 days in Gods time is really 7,000 years.

2. The Bible never said species. It clearly states beast. Which is a four footed mammal. It never stated 30 million as a number, and we know there are not 30 million four-footed mammals in variety.

"Mountains on land, mountains in the water, not a hard connection to make especially if you have a nice long anchor."

Your statement is to simplistic. The facts are back before we had sonar no one could speak with authority as to what the bottom of the ocean was like. We knew more about the surface of the moon than the bottom of the sea. To add to this, not to many fishermen had anchor chains that were 29,000 feet long. The only real authoritative clue was found in the Bible.

Fishermen and sea-farers have known of currents for as long as they've floated upon the waters.

"I can tell you right now that this guy didn't discover currents. Fishermen and sea-farers have known of currents for as long as they've floated upon the waters."

Yes they knew about surface currents, but the currents I am referring to are deep ocean currents that are thousands of feet below the surface which travel from continent to continent.

Another Example: Medical Science has only recently discovered that blood-clotting in a newborn reaches it's peak on the eighth day, then drops. The Bible consistently says that a baby must be circumcised on the eighth day. This can be found in Genesis 17:10-14. How is it that the Bible knew this 3,000 years ago and medical science just discovered it?

To an Athiest just another one of the Bible's many "coicidences."

[campbell34]

Jesus Christ is the only way to God. There is only one way to the father and that is through the son.
In regards to this quote: "Then Jesus was a liar because he claimed He was the only way" I was making a point.

A person said that all religions are the same-that it does not matter who you believe in either way you will get to heaven. I then stated Jesus was a liar because he claimed He was the only way...UC?

[Epiphany]

And the bible also says that the earth was created in 7 days, and that over 30 million species of animals boarded a boat.
Seven days in our time and seven days in God's time are not the same. For example, when Daniel said, "one week", in God's time it was seven years.

I can tell you right now that this guy didn't discover currents. Fishermen and sea-farers have known of currents for as long as they've floated upon the waters.
No one just knows, someone had to discover this.

[Real American]

Just remeber folks, you will find more people with more excuses to deny God and His truth than you will find those that whole heartedly believe in The Word of God. No amount of evidence will convince them. As pharoes heart was hardend, so will theirs be. They have already made up their minds and chosen their path. Of course, this fact does not tell us to stop praying and stop reachign out, but I just say this as a reminder. Do not be frustrated at their attempts to discredit God. In the end He will show them all, and they will beg for forgivness, but it will be to late.

As to the original post and my original reply; I still state that through God I am granted His wisdom, I only need to ask for it. Do I look at other "religions" or beliefs? Yes I do, to better arm myself against Satan. I will give you an example. The Bible says it is complete. It does not need to be added or taken away from. Yet the mormon religion states that their book is an addition to The Bible. The mormon book also states that it is a book before all others. This can be found in the first few pages of the mormon book. Everytime a mormon comes to my door, I do not tell them to go away. I talk to them. My favorite question to ask them is "Will you go to Heaven when you die?" They always answer with "I don't know, I hope so...". Yet they tell me they follow The Bible and the book of mormon. The Bible clearly states that you can enter Heaven through Jesus. So if, acording to The Bible, I accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior, and admit that I am a sinner, and this grants me into Heaven, how can I question my allowance into Heaven? This is why I "study" religions. To better equip myself using The Word of God and His wisdome to destroy all lies that are thrown at myself and my family. So again, I do not need to look at other religions to show me anything. God shows me what I need to know to spread his word.

[campbell34]

It is nice to have people like Real American & Epiphany on this forum. You guys really write great posts.

[Epiphany]

It is nice to have people like Real American & Epiphany on this forum. You guys really write great posts.I was thinking the same thing about both you and Real American :)

Just to add to Real American's post on his study of other religions...
I am an Apostolic Pentecostal. Pentecostal is often referred to as, "hardcore" Christianity. The main basis of Pentecostalism is the pentecost. God's promised out pouring of his spirit (Isaiah 28:9-12) that occured in the upper room during prayer (Acts 2). We believe in the Bible's plan of salvation that includes baptism in the name of Jesus (as given examples of in the Bible) for the remission of sins, and baptism in the holy ghost. (John 3:5).

http://pentecostals.homestead.com/StatementofFaith.html (all except communion)

Some of the other things we do:

Women wear skirts (Deuteronomy 22:23) (though personally I think it's referring to transvestites. (I still wear jeans, just not to church)
Women have long hair (1 Corinthians 11:14)
No use of makeup (face painting was practiced mostly by harlots in the bible. Basically it's the idea of vanity. The idea of using makeup to look attractive to men) (I wear foundation and blush myself)
We dance and sing as a part of worship (Exodus 15:20, Psalm 150)
We try to stay true to both the Old and New Testament teachings. Christians with old school practices. And yes, we are loud, but we love the Lord and we love to worship him. We have that fire. Some of us have been accused of extreme practices. I'm not sure what other Pentecostals do in some parts, but we do not play with poisonous snakes. That is just stupid. God says do not tempt your own life.

[mother_nature's_son]

campbell34,

"No, the bible would not present them as such (scientific facts). Why would you believe this. The Bible is not about science. Its about God and his relationship to man. Incidental scientific facts can be found there."

Science is a HUGE part of god's relationship to man.

By presenting scientific facts as such, the bible would gain REAL credibility for itself, otherwise there is none.


"Yes the Bible did say it took 7 days to create the Earth, but you must understand that a day in Gods time is much longer than our 24 hour day.
Another words 7 days in Gods time is really 7,000 years."

7 days or 7,000 years, a difference is hardly there;
either way it's only a small fraction of actual geologic time.


"The Bible never said species. It clearly states beast. Which is a four footed mammal. It never stated 30 million as a number, and we know there are not 30 million four-footed mammals in variety."

You are implying that only four footed mammals boarded the ark.
The bible includes birds and 'all creatures that move along the ground'.
The fact is that all the millions of creatures needing salvation from a worldwide flood could not fit on Noah's ark, much less be gathered in 7 days.

Furthermore, a 450 foot boat made of wood would sink. Steel reinforcement would be necessary to keep it’s shape. Not even 19th century engineers could build a boat that big out of wood alone. The wood would distort in the water if it did not have steel reinforcement and would spring hundreds of leaks.

Even so, a global flood would have changed the atmosphere to the point that the water vapor dissolved in the air would cause creatures to drown by breathing and atmospheric pressure would crush lungs.

"The facts are back before we had sonar no one could speak with authority as to what the bottom of the ocean was like. We knew more about the surface of the moon than the bottom of the sea.
The only real authoritative clue was found in the Bible."

Islands.

Islands are submerged mountains that clear the surface of the water.
That's all the evidence you need right there.

"Yes they knew about surface currents, but the currents I am referring to are deep ocean currents that are thousands of feet below the surface which travel from continent to continent."

Ok, now you are just being dishonest.

Psalms 8:8, as you quote, very generally speaks of 'the paths of the seas'.
And you try to tell me this is in reference, exclusively, to deep ocean currents.

I see the way you operate here campbell...

(And just so you know, 'surface currents' run 400 meters deep.)

"Medical Science has only recently discovered that blood-clotting in a newborn reaches it's peak on the eighth day, then drops. The Bible consistently says that a baby must be circumcised on the eighth day. How is it that the Bible knew this 3,000 years ago and medical science just discovered it?"

Between days 5 and 8 are the best times.
This could easily be realized through simple trial and error.

[mother_nature's_son]

I think you guys are taking this way too seriously.

I enjoy debating science and creationism because science is a passion of mine, and discussions like these provoke me to learn more about it. Simple as that.

Moonlight,
All minds are different, and not everybody shares your 'Grand picture'. Perhaps you should be more sensitive towards this, and not speak of 'enlightened comprehension' with such arrogance.

And I dont know why you think I am trying-
'to defrail the works of God, by using science against Him'.

God is science.
So if science can be used against a supposed 'work of god' (the bible),
then I see this as:
God being used against the corrupted words of men.


TrueAmerican,

Your truth is not my truth.
And I was raised fundamental Christian.

I am not shoving my ideas onto anybody.
If you don't like what I say, dont read it.

I am having a good time with this discussion,
I am sorry that it is upsetting you.