The promotion of meat eating and dairy consumption

[gratefulvegan]

This promotion is no doubt a ploy by the heavy hitters of our country and is clearly supported by the government. It has been proven that eating meat not only directly leads to insane amounts of pain for the innocent animals killed on a day to day basis, but it is also wasteful and extremely unhealthy. First off, animals are subjected to pain for the trivial purpose of pleasing the greedy meat eaters in the mindless quest to dine "well". A prime example of how the pompous consumers have had their way is in the veil industry, in which cows are forced to undergo the pain of confinement in order to produce a more tender, lighter colored meat. Chicken and cows are fed growth hormones and are murdered brutally with no thoughts of the massive amount of pain they endure in the process. Milking cows are strapped to metal "milkers" which often cause diseases and abrasions and they are forced to give up what was meant for their children until they become weak and are killed. Laying hens are kept in the smallest crates and cramped with up to seven others to ensure optimal production. And with all of this going on, there are almost no limits which stop the cruelty? This is because of the rich controllers who have their hands in the industry and scare away government officials. They fill the media with lies that meat and milk bring about healthy children when it has been proven that they are in actuality detrimental. Open your eyes to the fact that you are the government's bitch by buying into this. Realize that billions of animals die each year to please your picky taste buds. Rise above the brainwash which and lift the veil which has hidden the true horrors of the industry. Stop supporting the abuse, stop allowing these animals, these sentiet, intelligent creatures are written off as mere products for our benefit. Explore vegetarianism and veganism- open your mind- forget about what the media feeds you, it is fake, but the killing and torture IS REAL!

[stratface]

hey man, not to be brash, but shut the FUCK UP. i'm sick of all you people licking peta's balls and whining about meat eating. i have no problem with vegetarians, don't get me wrong, but i don't want to be preached to about what i can and cannot eat. i like meat. i eat meat. it tastes nice. it is good for you, stop bullshitting me. it's okay if you think the cute little cows and piggies are not to be eaten, but there's nothing you can do about it, i'm still eating it. hell, i'd eat people too if they tasted nice. i'd eat shit if it tasted nice. my mind is plenty open, and i feel sorry for the animals in pain, but they're delicious and i like meat.

meaty peace,
stratface

[Josh_the_Small]

I don't think there's really a conspiracy here. I mean people have eaten meat forever. Humans are by nature omnivorous. And I think milk is good for you, I mean, it's made to be nutritious for growing babies, so it must be healthy. Theres no conspiracy, just a large demand for meat and dairy and a bunch of jerks satisfying that demand.

[gratefulvegan]

I just think the extreme promotion of it is a scheme put together by the government to promote the industry. Obviously we have been eating meat for quite some time...but look at the fact that it is no longer such a personal thing. Factory farms have replaced family run farms and animals are being treated more and more like products when in fact they deserve rights because of the fact that they are sentient beings. I dont care if you want to eat meant- that does not justify the act- me wanting to gamble away my earning on slots and poker does not make it the right choice to make. Also, I am absolutely not a PETA person because i disagree with them on many fronts. I just dont see why you need to be so abrasive about this issue. Here are the true facts about meat eating which you may not have known:
the food wasted by the wealthy nations would in fact be able to end hunger across the globe...the reason that food is wasted because of meat is because it takes about 10x the number of plants to feed one person meat than it does to feed one person vegetables...which is obviously wasteful and is currently a cause of mass deforestation. Secondly, in the U.S. for example, more than half of the water used goes straight to livestock production- a pound of meat requires 50x the amount of water as an equal amount of wheat. Thirdly, The U.S. produces a total of 2 billion tons of manure each year which ends up polluting streams and rivers. Also, by uprooting plants to make way for the swiftly growing meat industry we are contributing to the growning greenhouse effect- which will in turn cause sea levels to raise and mass destruction. Beyond all of this, billions of animals who are intelligent and aware are being killed because of such trivial reasons as to fit your taste. By the way, if milk is so good for babies then why did Dr. Spock (the most trusted baby physician) urge parents to raise their children as vegans?

Please give me a good reason for why we should not extend the basic right to not be harvested and tortured for our benefit to sentient beings. Just because it has become so normal in our society does not justify it in any way.

[stratface]

again, you can think what you think and eat what you eat, please just don't try to change my mind. i'm not going to stop eating meat, and believe it or not, i've tried. i attempted vegetarianism for a period of about 4 months, and i felt unsatisified and weakened quite often. and as a child concerned about my own nutrition more than animals who cannot even think, i will continue to eat meat. think about it. what else can pigs be used for besides eating? what purpose do they serve, if not as food? you make some good points about pollution, deforestation, and other negative effects of animal farming and meat production, but you fail to mention all the good things about it. people will never stop eating meat, and eventually we will be eating each other. it won't be long. every society rises, lasts a couple thousand years, becomes corrupt, and collapses into anarchy and destruction. humans are plague, we destroy everything in our path for "the greater good," we are oppurtunistic, and we take advantage of anything we can. and so, don't try to change human nature.

not to mention, many meat eating animals have processes that are painful for the prey to ready the meat for eating. it's not as though humans are being unnatural in our doing anything to make the best possible food. snakes poison their food with a bite, and the animal is digested while still alive and aware. other snakes swLlow food whole, slowly suffocating it as it goes down, and others slowly squeeze it to death. rats will absolutely decimate each other to save themselves. wolves and large reptiles often eat their own young to establish their dominance. have you ever seen a cat play with a rodent before eating it? they spend ours decimating the small creature simply for their own entertainment.

i have no problem with vegetarianism, as i have said, but stop preaching. you're no different than a zealot yelling from a street corner about saving yourself from hell, or a klanny trying to force racism on someone. stoppit.

peace.

[stratface]

and by the way, i don't think the government is any more involved in the meat business than they are in other businesses. why would they be, what makes meat so special? the government, i think, sticks with things like oil, trash collection, things we absolutely NEED.

[organic.psychonaut]

stratface, you're not actually 12 are you?

[gratefulvegan]

again, you can think what you think and eat what you eat, please just don't try to change my mind. i'm not going to stop eating meat, and believe it or not, i've tried. i attempted vegetarianism for a period of about 4 months, and i felt unsatisified and weakened quite often. and as a child concerned about my own nutrition more than animals who cannot even think, i will continue to eat meat. think about it. what else can pigs be used for besides eating? what purpose do they serve, if not as food? you make some good points about pollution, deforestation, and other negative effects of animal farming and meat production, but you fail to mention all the good things about it. people will never stop eating meat, and eventually we will be eating each other. it won't be long. every society rises, lasts a couple thousand years, becomes corrupt, and collapses into anarchy and destruction. humans are plague, we destroy everything in our path for "the greater good," we are oppurtunistic, and we take advantage of anything we can. and so, don't try to change human nature.

not to mention, many meat eating animals have processes that are painful for the prey to ready the meat for eating. it's not as though humans are being unnatural in our doing anything to make the best possible food. snakes poison their food with a bite, and the animal is digested while still alive and aware. other snakes swLlow food whole, slowly suffocating it as it goes down, and others slowly squeeze it to death. rats will absolutely decimate each other to save themselves. wolves and large reptiles often eat their own young to establish their dominance. have you ever seen a cat play with a rodent before eating it? they spend ours decimating the small creature simply for their own entertainment.

i have no problem with vegetarianism, as i have said, but stop preaching. you're no different than a zealot yelling from a street corner about saving yourself from hell, or a klanny trying to force racism on someone. stoppit.

peace.
Obviously it is true that animals kill themselves in ways which are savage, yet they do not subject their prey to a life of imprisonment and torture before doing so. Also, animals do not have any other option than being brutal and killing in a way which fits there nature- they do not have the ability to rely upon vitamins and supplements or soy alternatives. Beyond that, they do not have the capacity to make MORAL choices as we humans do. I do NOT think we should sit back and watch humans ruin the earth any more than we already have done because we need to step up and take charge. We need to educated and prevent on behalf of nature and mankind. Also, what determines the alottment of rights to beings? You claim that since animals can not think and therefore it is perfectly reasonable for us to kill and eat them. Are you proposing that it would be morally defensable to eat other creatures that do not have the ability to think? Then by that reasoning we can not feel guilty in eating mentally disabled human beings, because they can not think. And no, you can not logically say that you feel we can only eat animals by that reasoning simply because they are animals and that makes them less worthy of being granted rights or consideration. You can not make such an arbitrary destinction-such as the difference of one's species- to determine the rights that one deserves. The only universal mode for determining rights is by relying upon the evidence that shows a certain creature would want rights. I.E. if a creature (human or nonhuman) has the interest to not feel pain (the most basic interest) we should fulfill that naturally. Plants, on the otherhand do not have such an interest. How is it just to simply say that because these beings are of a different species that makes them automatically less deserving of certain basic rights? Is that not what the KKK claims, that ALL blacks should be deemed lower than rights even though many blacks far surpass whites in intelligence levels and like traits. The same thing is claimed by sexists, that women are automatically deserving of less consideration because they are of a "weaker" sex. I feel that this type of reasoning is destructive and illogical. Great apes, for instance are known to be able to communicate, THINK, and learn languages, they can fashion tools and construct shelters- but simply because they are "animals" and clearly more aware then certain human beings- we do not consider the fact that they can feel pain and think on levels which exceed those the humans can feel. I am not trying to impose my beliefs on you- just reveal the truth which has been so sucessfully hidden about the horrors of the industry

[YankNBurn]

Are you serious? A goverment ploy? Its called ads paid for not by the goverment but rather the industry.


As for how animals are raised and killed well seems you have chose to select just a few places and thats it. Most beef is actually free range, very few places like the state of CA run pen cattle as it actually is quite costly unless you live in an area that land value is very high. Chickens again what a joke, I have seen personaly several laying facilities and never was there more than 1 chicken per cage and it was done so to proctect from disease.

Any industry has its negative side in the fact farmers who grow produce polute the streams and kill wild life daily to yield higher crops. They use genetically altered seed that grows larger faster plants. The soil damage done by farmers is very damaging to fish and other life in rivers streams and creeks.

As for pain for tha animal, well most up to the last moments of thier lives around MO seem to live a pretty care free life. As for killing them to eat and produce leather and such, well could they survive in the wild on thier own?

[gratefulvegan]

WRONG. GOT MILK? is supported directly from government funding as are a few of the cheese ads. Even if it were one chicken to a cage- you dont see a problem with that confinement? Chicken should not be caged because they need to dustbathe- to clean their feathers. If they are unable to do this they often attempt to on the metal cage and cut themselves. Beef is technically a free range asset- the main problem with beef is how it is shipped to slaughter. There is no law against shipping the cattle without feed for over 24 hours and as you can imagine that is not a fun experience by any means. Farmers do pollute- but as a meat eater you are contributing 10x to that pollution as 10x the amount of plants vegetarians need to eat go in to raising cattle and other animals. The majority of animals absolutely do not have pretty care free lives (i would say certain cattle have it OK until that "trail of tears" trip to the slaughterhouse) animals such as cows and hens endure far too much pain than is necessary. I just urge you to look into the industry a bit deeper than what you see in MO, because i doubt you have visited a large chain factory farm or read into the actual details of what goes on. Absolutley not could they survive in the wild on their own- and they would phase out if the need for meat would decrease because WE have created them to fit our needs. However, if they meat industry were to collapse- it would open up vast amounts of rainforest land which would allow 10 fold the number of animals to live. I guess this issue is really based upon a specific moral code, but I think of you read up a bit, maybe checked out a book- you may agree with me.

[Cryptoman]

Yeah, the government funds all kinds of big businesses and not many of them are actually good for the consumer. That's the way the country works. I agree that meat and dairy that are subjected to these cruel conditions can't be healthy. The growth hormones aren't naturally occurring in the animals, and now they're experimenting with gene splicing. There are also naturally occurring chemicals that are released by the confined and mistreated animal. It has been proven that animals in these conditions are prone to depression and that a chemical is released into the bloodstream of the animal altering it. It's not clear what effect, if any it has, but it's being studied so I'd say that it has some effect.
These aren't problems associated with meat and dairy consumption though. These are problems associated with the industry. If you want meat that is treated humanely, raise it yourself, or buy organic meat (meat that is allowed to free range and not subjected to injections), or hunt your own meat.

Not that I'm opposed to vegan/vegetarians, but how many vegetables do you suppose you have to kill a day in order to survive? 20-30? And how do you know that these vegetables can't feel, or aren't sentient? Don't they thrive when shown love? The attention a plant gets is directly related to their overall health. Studies also show that plants that are yelled at while given the same nutrients and access to light did not thrive. Plants have been observed to do many amazing things. Before you base your argument for veganism on the pain and suffering of the animals...fully research the possibility of pain and suffering of plants.

I think it's easier for people to dismiss this argument because plants are different form us. They can't see the way we do, or feel the way we do so it doesn't matter what we do to plants, but animals are alot like humans, so we can get outraged at their mistreatment. Don't get me wrong, I'd shut down every farm in the industry that treats their animals inhumanely, just like I'd shut down every damn carrot abusing son of a bitch out there if I could. Seriously though...think about it

[YankNBurn]

The "Got Milk" ad is paid for by the dairy farmer at a rater of roughly .02 per gallon of milk. The Goverment currently forces all dairy farmers to take part in it and several have lawsuite filled to challenge it.


http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=16002

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/02/24/got.milk.suit.ap/index.html

And for the "Beef its whats for dinner" again the farmer is being forced to pay for this by the goverment.

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/analysis.aspx?id=15308

http://www.extension.iastate.edu/AgDM/articles/mceowen/McEowJuly05.htm

Seems we should protest the govement for acting like the mafia in old town NY and Chicago. Force people to take a service they do not want.

[stratface]

stratface, you're not actually 12 are you?why, is my opinion worth less if i'm younger than you? do i not have the same rights as a person because i am not fully developed? because i can not think on the level of an adult? disregard my age and think about what i said as you would if someone your age was saying it, okay man?

[gratefulvegan]

Cryptoman:
You do bring up a good point my friend, and I will not be the typical vegetarian who would dismiss it as illogical. Although an overwhelming amount of scientific evidence points to the fact that plants can not feel pain- it is certainly possible by a small stretch of the imagination. Though scientists know that plants lack a central nervous system as well as cell membranes which allow a being to be sentient, there is obviously a miniscule (yet possible) chance that they can in fact feel pain. However, if you were truly against causing main to plants- and thus obliterating the greatest amount of pain- you would become a vegetarian. The reasoning behind this is that animals need to be fed 10 times the amount of plants needed to feed a human. So basically by eating meat you are not only contributing to the death of a surely sentient being but also to the death of 10x the number of potentially sentient plants. Obviously vegetarianism is the rational way to prevent the greatest amount of pain, and promote a normal lifestyle for the greatest number of beings.

[stratface]

for the love of god, now PLANTS can feels pain? if they have no nerves, they feel no pain. period.

now, gratefulvegan, i have a couple of questions for you, if you'd be so kind as to answer them, because i'd like to better understand where vegans are coming from.

1.if you are against eating eggs, does that mean you're also against abortion? (not in general, you personally.)

2.why are you against eating eggs, when they are unfertilized? you're not killing something if it was never alive.

3.why are you opposed to milk production? as far as i know, it's painful for the cows NOT to be milked.

4.why are you opposed to eating such things as shellfish and lobster, which have no central nervous system and can feel no pain?

5.do you actually like the taste of soy products? both me and my only vegetarian friend think they are awful.

6.would you eat meat if it was not produced under the conditions you described, for instance, if it was grown by an independant farm that grew all it's food free range?

7.do you like the taste of meat, and are just against it for other reasons, or do you think it's tastes bad?

8.do you kill bugs and vermin that get into yuor residence?

thank you if you will answer these, i'd like to know a bit more about your ideals as a vegan.

[YankNBurn]

So the issue of the goverment funded add for "Got Milk" and "Beef its whats for dinner" is proved not to be goverment funded but rather goverment mandate the the farmers pay for the ad no matter if they want to or not

http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=16002
http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/02/24/got.milk.suit.ap/index.html
http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/analysis.aspx?id=15308
http://www.extension.iastate.edu/AgDM/articles/mceowen/McEowJuly05.htm

Now we address the issue of farmers who raise crops and the fact that it actually is very harmfull to the enviroment and fish and wild game:

First the silt the gets into the streams from more and more farmers expanding thier crop land and errosion that moves into the areas fish need to survive.

The expansion of crop land that it cuts into the habitat of the wildlife.

Farmers control of insects poisons small birds and animals.

Farmers control of wildlife that eats thier crops

Insecticides that get into the water system

No matter what you eat due to the population of the world negative impacts happen thru the need to feed people. Hell they claim now that the produce that is gron these days does not even provide nurishment enough without the needs for suppliment vitamins due to the changes in seeds to yeild quanity and color not value of nutrients.

As for the fight about vegis feeling pain when harvested ect well lets face facts, the plant normally does die when harvested but feelings, who knows but would take your side and say it does not feel a thing.

I want to invest my time more concerned about changing goverment control over our lives and invasions of property.

[stratface]

I want to invest my time more concerned about changing goverment control over our lives and invasions of property.
damn straight.

[drumminmama]

now, gratefulvegan, i have a couple of questions for you, if you'd be so kind as to answer them, because i'd like to better understand where vegans are coming from.

1.if you are against eating eggs, does that mean you're also against abortion? (not in general, you personally.)

2.why are you against eating eggs, when they are unfertilized? you're not killing something if it was never alive. no eggs sold commercially in the US are fertilized, and the eggs we get at stores are more akin to a menstrual product: all the goo, no wee one.

3.why are you opposed to milk production? as far as i know, it's painful for the cows NOT to be milked. left to their own devices, a mama and calf (such as a beef pair) will nurse as often as needed, adjusting for the developing calf/heifer's needs.
Large scale dairy uses chems to up that production and in the course of it, cows often get mastitis. think of the clap in a nipple.
Yeahhhhh.. THAT is in your milk. Want an oreo?
the machines are far more "urgent" than a natural calf. that hurts. ask any nursing mama who had to pump.

4.why are you opposed to eating such things as shellfish and lobster, which have no central nervous system and can feel no pain? neither do scorpions or spiders. Want that medium rare or crisp tender?
Vegan, and ethical vegetarian, is based not on an absolute that the animal suffers, but the premise that it is not our place as humans to inflict or perpetuate that. The concept in its simplistic form is: animals are not here for us anymore than women are here for men or people of color are here for whites.
you got very upset when someone asked your age.
If we had a general concensus that all under 16s had no relevant thoughts and we could do with them what we will, you would be in the same place you put animals.
ethical veg*ans think in that headspace.

5.do you actually like the taste of soy products? both me and my only vegetarian friend think they are awful. to some, flesh is awful.
and soy is not the replacement whole-scale for flesh. A balanced diet with fruits, vegetables and grains (and dairy if you so choose) is the replacement. Soy is just one ingredient.

6.would you eat meat if it was not produced under the conditions you described, for instance, if it was grown by an independant farm that grew all it's food free range?

7.do you like the taste of meat, and are just against it for other reasons, or do you think it's tastes bad? see the basis of ethical eating above.

8.do you kill bugs and vermin that get into yuor residence? usually relocate. I use barriers to convice the ants that there is better food outside (like the compost bin). Spiders get moved, even recluses.
personal vermin for people or pets will get killed.
that becomes a health issue.

and if you put two vegans on an island, there will be three opinions.

[gratefulvegan]

1.if you are against eating eggs, does that mean you're also against abortion? (not in general, you personally.)

Yes, I am absolutely pro-life. Not just pro-human life.

2.why are you against eating eggs, when they are unfertilized? you're not killing something if it was never alive.

I am against eggs because of the process by which they are harvested. It is a truly brutal process in which hens are subjected to ridiculous amounts of pain for no real reason except for producing as many eggs as possible. Also, as a direct relation to the egg laying industry, millions of baby chicks (males) die each year because they are seen as useless to the laying industry.

3.why are you opposed to milk production? as far as i know, it's painful for the cows NOT to be milked.

I am opposed to milk production because we basically rape these cows to promote optimal milk production. Ever heard of artificial insemination? It is not natural, yet we use it to promote milk production. As my animal loving friend explained, milking is a painful process and baby calves are supposed to complete it. Also, it is related directly to the veil industry- as male calves are often sent off to confinement to fulfill the greedy needs of the ignorant masses.

4.why are you opposed to eating such things as shellfish and lobster, which have no central nervous system and can feel no pain?

First off, there are many tests which provide evidence explaining why lobster do in fact feel pain- look into it further. Also, as Peter Singer explains- one can not be absolutely sure that shellfish do in fact feel pain- but since we can never be clear we should attempt to avoid them.

5.do you actually like the taste of soy products? both me and my only vegetarian friend think they are awful.

I love soy. It is a wonder food.

6.would you eat meat if it was not produced under the conditions you described, for instance, if it was grown by an independant farm that grew all it's food free range?

No, the death would be painful and the life still unnatural and policed. Also, as i explained earlier if you bothered to read it- eating meat is WASTEFUL as hell, I would rather ralley together to stop world hunger than enjoy a steak.

7.do you like the taste of meat, and are just against it for other reasons, or do you think it's tastes bad?

I used to enjoy meat when i was young and ignorant. However, now i realize that it is rotting flesh and i would absolutely never eat it again. I hate the taste- but I am against it for moral reasons.

8.do you kill bugs and vermin that get into yuor residence?
No. I do not kill bugs and vermin because i am not too lazy to get up and walk them outside.

[gratefulvegan]

Now we address the issue of farmers who raise crops and the fact that it actually is very harmfull to the enviroment and fish and wild game:

First the silt the gets into the streams from more and more farmers expanding thier crop land and errosion that moves into the areas fish need to survive.

The expansion of crop land that it cuts into the habitat of the wildlife.

Farmers control of insects poisons small birds and animals.

Farmers control of wildlife that eats thier crops

Insecticides that get into the water system

No matter what you eat due to the population of the world negative impacts happen thru the need to feed people. Hell they claim now that the produce that is gron these days does not even provide nurishment enough without the needs for suppliment vitamins due to the changes in seeds to yeild quanity and color not value of nutrients.

As for the fight about vegis feeling pain when harvested ect well lets face facts, the plant normally does die when harvested but feelings, who knows but would take your side and say it does not feel a thing.

I want to invest my time more concerned about changing goverment control over our lives and invasions of property.


For the last time man...BY EATING MEAT YOU ARE ESSENTIALLY PROMOTING THE EXCESS PRODUCTION OF CROPS 10x MORE THAN A VEGETARIAN DUE TO THE AMOUNT NEEDED TO FEED THE ANIMAL! PLEASE REALIZE THAT, IT'S NOT A HARD CONCEPT.

[stratface]

thank you guys for clearing my questions up.

for the record, i wasn't very upset, simply trying to make a point that someone's opinion should matter no matter what their age, race, sex, etc.

this really isn't about conspiracy anymore, i've noticed. we're pretty much just artguing about the pros/cons of meat eating and/or vegetarianism. just takin' note.

[Crazy_P]

1) I don't think most animals could be viewed as sentient.
2) Fuck PETA. Seriously, fuck PETA like fuck pro-lifers that protest with signs covered in abortion pictures.
3) The govt supports the meat industry because it makes them money. It might be expensive to produce steak, but they have us eating all the industrial waste. Cheese, GELATIN, etc.
4) As far as a conspiracy is concerned, it is only the influence of advertising, which has evolved greatly over the years into a pervasive force in society. Mostly a force for the manipulation of consumers, which is bad.
5) And as for lobsters/shellfish, it's like swine. Disgusting bottom feeders have no place on my menu.

[Cryptoman]

I want to start an ad campaign for the rights and protection of vegetables. I'm appaled at the lack of care, consideration and thought given to these misunderstood living things. If you can hurt a plants feelings, does it matter if it has nerve endings that allow it to feel pain when harvested or not???

Seriously though, the point I was trying to make is that there are absurd points to every argument. It really doesn't matter which side you're on, there are scientific arguments to back you up. The point isn't so much what you eat, it's that you do it responsibly. I've grown a lot of my own food and I love my produce. I love to eat it too. I hunt most of the meat that I consume and I won't take an iffy shot. I want a clean kill with minimal pain. I'm an omnivore, but I do go through long vegetarian spells because I don't feel like hunting and won't hardly buy processed meat.

As for the government conspiracy, I don't think it really qualifies as a conspiracy because everyone is aware of whats going on, or at least they should, the info is out there.

[Bilby]

I empithise with a vegan's concern for animals, but as Peter Singer says, it is not a question of killing animls but how they are treated when they are alive. Anyway I don't see any conspiracy about promotion of meat and dairy products per se. Could you give some examples? I would say there is a promotion of low fat diets in order to sell more low fat milk products. See,
http://hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148007

However when it comes to first grade meat and full fat dairy , there is not need to promote as such products already sell well anyway.

[streamlight2]

I just read that in a study, with 8,000 subjects, a child with a vegetarian mother is 5 times more likely to be born with birth defects than with a meat eating mother.

[gratefulvegan]

I empithise with a vegan's concern for animals, but as Peter Singer says, it is not a question of killing animls but how they are treated when they are alive.

I have read Singer's book, Animal Liberation, and he never says that it is "not a question of killing animals" in fact, he finds a major fault in the killing of animals which is why he himself does not hunt or raise his own meat. Also, he claims that the harvesting of animals is in almost every case wasteful and simply selfish. May want to look into his theory a bit more.

[paq]

we all need to breath and realize we need to start localizing food, water, wildlife, plantlife or we are all going to die because trucks will stop coming.

[Cryptoman]

Aaaaahhhmmmmen!!!!

[carsick]

we all need to breath and realize we need to start localizing food, water, wildlife, plantlife or we are all going to die because trucks will stop coming.
I think this is the solution to most major modern life problems.

[HonorSeed]

Two things for sure..........we all need to breath......and we are all going die.........lol

[paq]

Not all of us will die. The strong and intuitive will survive. Those that are clouded will simply die before they understand what happened.

[MikeE]

This the Concpiracy forum. The OP was about a consipriacy to promote meat and dairy products. The discussion has wandered into an animal rights debate.

Agribuisness treats both animals and plants as components in a far flung factory. Basicaly, it turns petroleum (artificial fertilizer & trasportation fuel) and sunlight into food, rather than letting sunlight and life make our food. Both veg*ians and omnivores are consumers of this system. (How many vegans take nutritional suppliments that are petroleum based?)

Either veg*ians and omnivores can excuse themselves from it by eating local organic food. I stress "local", because agribuisness has taken to growing things in non-sustainable industrial ways without using pesticides. An "Organic" label is not enough if you want to avoid agribuisness food.

I'm not sure that the rise of agribuisness, which took place in front of our faces (if we cared to look), qualifies as a conspiracy.

[Bilby]

But what is the ulterior motive of meat and dairy promotion?

[KParker730]

The government is scared of hippies! And they probably have ties with the big Agro and meat producing companies such as Monsanto and ConAgra.

[drumminmama]

USDA certainly does. Most of the higher ups are from genetic manipulation companies or one of the big Four agri producers.
Check out The Future of Food (film) and Eat Here (book)

[MikeE]

But what is the ulterior motive of meat and dairy promotion?
To sell lots and lots of cows. But, if you want to get parinoid about it;

Agribuisness wants us to adopt a diet that can be satisfied with growing few source crops. If everything we eat is based on corn and wheat production, then they, by controlling corn and wheat seed, transportation and processing, profit everytime anyone eats anything.

However, the big profit is not in supplying the crops, but in processing the crop. In their eyes, a cow is a corn processing device. By increasing our meat consumption, they are shifting our eating towards those foods that generate the most profit for them.

Pre-packaged, individual portion food is good for their bottom line. Microwavable food that is child friendly is an expanding market. Children have started exerting buying power younger and younger, thus the people who decide how a family spends its money have less and less experience in detecting the common advertising gimicks. (A 9 year old will be more impressed with an included toy than a 12 year old.) The less work the consumer does in the kitchen, the greater the profit for the company. Selling to kids, who arent trusted in the kitchen to do more than run a microwave, is an obvious profit maker.

"Happy cows make Happy Meals"

[juggalettejen]

"If we weren't meant to eat animals, God wouldn't have made them out of meat"

W.C. Fields

[MeatWagon499]

as long as chicken tastes good, I will continue to eat it regardless of how unhealthy it is or even if it is radioactive/diseased.

[bbbeccaaa]

"If we weren't meant to eat animals, God wouldn't have made them out of meat"

W.C. Fields:confused:
I really hope that was a joke, cause it might be the stupidest thing I've heard in a while.


Humans are made of meat, are you gonna eat us?

[Roct]

I believe it was a quote.

There's a place for every animal. Right next to the potatoes is usually a good place.

[bbbeccaaa]

Yes I know, but when someone posts a quote like that, it tends to be because they believe it. I was saying that the quote is ignorant.

And honestly, maybe you should go watch some videos of what actually happens to the animals you thoughtlessly put on your dinner plate. You might learn something.

And anyone that says animals can't think for themselves or feel pain/pleasure, who are you to judge? If you can't see the fear in a cow's eye as he's being painfully slaughtered, or the pleasure a dog feels when you pet him, then you must be blind. I can say that each one of my 4 cats has a unique personality, and the same goes for any other creature. Animals don't deserve to die (especially cruelly) any more than we do. It's not a question of intelligence, but the value of all life.

I'm not telling everyone to stop eating meat, I honestly don't care, but before you act like an asshole, educate yourself!

[SunrayDustShower]

hey man, not to be brash, but shut the FUCK UP. i'm sick of all you people licking peta's balls and whining about meat eating. i have no problem with vegetarians, don't get me wrong, but i don't want to be preached to about what i can and cannot eat. i like meat. i eat meat. it tastes nice. it is good for you, stop bullshitting me. it's okay if you think the cute little cows and piggies are not to be eaten, but there's nothing you can do about it, i'm still eating it. hell, i'd eat people too if they tasted nice. i'd eat shit if it tasted nice. my mind is plenty open, and i feel sorry for the animals in pain, but they're delicious and i like meat.

meaty peace,
stratfaceOkay dude, for real. Gratefulvegan is just expressing his viewpoint. Maybe some people need to step down and quit attacking people that have mortality and sympathy for animals. im not saying that eating meat is immoral because I eat meat. however, i think that dude has his opinion and I dont think he needs to be shot down for it. I hate what animals have to go though thats why when i eat meat i eat it sparingly and im grateful for what im eating. i dont gorge myself on hamburgers because they taste good, I eat steak for iron AND because it tastes good. chill out on the bitching man, doesn't get you anywhere.

[Roct]

And honestly, maybe you should go watch some videos of what actually happens to the animals you thoughtlessly put on your dinner plate. You might learn something.
I don't need to watch some propagandized video to see what happens the animals I put on my plate (notice I left out "thoughtlessly"). I've seen it first hand. I don't deny that an animal feels pain. However, when slaughtered properly, the time between infliction of pain and death is only a mere fraction of a second. But the animal doesn't know what is going to happen, what is happening, or what has just happened.

The same thing happens when I shoot a deer with a rifle. If I do it right, it never knew what hit it. If I do it wrong, then it only knows up until I get the knife in its throat.

[bbbeccaaa]

But the animal doesn't know what is going to happen, what is happening, or what has just happened.

There's absolutely no way that you can prove what an animal is capable of thinking. For all we know, animals are more aware than us, and we're in no place to act like we're some godly species and they're the dirt on our shoes. You can't speak of what an animal knows unless you yourself are that animal.

It doesn't bother me that you eat meat, but to act like animals are useless and to assume they're incapable of thinking is absurd and 'thoughtless'.

[Schlüßelberg]

http://www.factoryfarming.com/

If this doesn't disgust a person, that person has something wrong in the head.

[PunkHippieRimbaud]

i like cheese
sooo soooo much

[Bilby]

I still don't see any conspiracy as far as self-promotion or any other marketing campaigns. This is a normal part of business. Many businesses self-promote - and not just advertizing campaigns, but other marketing promotions such product placement. Notice in the latest James Bond films he drives a BMW?-
I think you should look up "conspiracy" in the dictionary.

[prismatism]

i'm just going to jump in and say...

i hate when people who eat meat use the argument that fruits and vegetables can feel pain & such too, so we might as well not eat anything. cut open an apple... what is on the inside? seeds. they are there so that an animal will eat the apple, and shit out the seeds, and more apples will grow. when you eat a burger, do you shit out baby cows?

if you say yes i will virtually bitchslap you for being a smartass :).

[Mary Poppins]

I get tired of vegans and vegetarians trying to shove their choices down my throat!! I also certainly see no conspiracy on the part of any government to try to get us to eat meat and dairy!! I also agree that meat and diary is good for you, and that we as humans need it in our diet. I wish to god that the V and V's would leave us the hell alone!!!

[bbbeccaaa]

Vegetarians and Vegans don't shove it in your face anymore than the people who eat meat shove it in our faces. I don't know how many times somedy has told me to eat some meat telling me it's good for me or how many times someone has made it obvious that what I eat/don't eat bothers them. I'd say your thoughts are shoved down OUR throats.

[prismatism]

if you saw a little kid poking themselves in the eyes with a carrot repeatedly because they heard "carrots are good for the eyes", would you let them keep doing it?

silly analogy but it works.

[omg im a govt spy lo]

No one gives a fuck you pussy. Eat meat!

[CrazybutLazy]

I don't like enough foods that don't contain meat to be come a vegetarian.

[omg im a govt spy lo]

Yeah, not to mention becoming a vegetarian makes you gay, weak, stupid, weak again, and a bitch.

[lifelovefun]

I'm not a Vegan, but the guy who started this thread is right on the money :) The government puts out the "Food Pyramid" and their buddies Milk and Meat are always there! Make sure you get your recommended daily amounts too or you'll get sick :o

[Carlfloydfan]

i'm not going to stop eating meat, and believe it or not, i've tried. i attempted vegetarianism for a period of about 4 months, and i felt unsatisified and weakened quite often.
Thats a poor arguement.

What did you eat for those four months?

[mortes]

I love becca's argument "For all you know..."

Yea for all we know animals are just food right? What a stupid argument.

Meat tastes good (well some) and provides protein, calories, fats, and makes a smile. I'm so fucking sick of peta pushing vegans it isn't even funny.

The Death argument is stupid as well. "They should die humanely Wah wah" Yea of course. In this ideal fantasy world where everything is perfect everyone would die "humanely" (there isn't such a thing just so you know, humane is a human word applied to something that occurs without human interference) we don't live in that world we live in this shitty one. Deal with it. If I tell you I raped your mother and tortured you for 5 hours and then shot you in the head vs just shooting you what's the difference? Other than me wasting my time, nothing. Same result, who cares. I will die one day and so will all of the tuna and sardines I will eat throughout my life.

[~MorningManiacMusic~]

Are you pissed off cause Lions,Bears and other animals eat meat?

Put on the National Geographic channel and watch how the lions kill their prey...It's not pretty and I'm sure it is very painful for the water buffalo or whatever they are eating.

Salads just don't fill me up..I have to eat meat.I love vegetables, but there is nothing like a good steak!


If everybody in the world stopped eating meat the animals would still be eaten... By other animals!

[Nalencer]

Eating meat is not so bad if you kill it yourself. If you hunt (preferably with a bow), shoot, and kill a deer, and eat it, that isn't too bad. But slaughterhouses are cruel, unnatural, and unhealthy for the person who ends up eating it. If you're eating a wild animal, chances are it will be healthy enough. Not so at all with factory farms. The meat you buy at the store is terrible for you. I'm a vegetarian myself, but if someone wants to hunt and kill their food, I don't have a huge problem with that.

[aspirine]

The problem of rushing the carving up of steers for food has resulted in steers not only not being entirely dead while they are being carved up, but some times being conscious and looking at their death. Then there is the thing about half the antibotics in the usa being given to beef. Then thre is the thing about them feeding beef remains to beef. I still eat fowl and fish, but beef is out. I would move entirly to a meat free diet but I am diabetic.
And yes there is a conspiricy by the producers and the feds. The feds helped a pizza chain develop a pizza with cheese in the doe edges so that people would eat more cheese.

Cheese, Cow excretions.

[Nalencer]

Diabetics don't need meat. There are plenty of vegetarian diabetics. You'll probably be a lot healthier that way, actually.

Who told you diabetics needed to eat meat?

[Carlfloydfan]

eat potatoes and beans. heck the occasional tofu. Perfect substitute for meat.

[Pressed_Rat]

Yeah, but remember that tofu (or anything containing soy) is anything but a health food, as many believe it to be.

[Nalencer]

What's wrong with soy?

[Pressed_Rat]

There are many things wrong with it. For one, it's loaded with estrogen. This explains why so many processed foods today contain soy, along with everything that's bottled in plastic, as plastics also leach off a synthetic form of estrogen. Soy is also high in glutamic acid. Glutamic acid is a excitotoxin, and monosodium glutamate (MSG) is a derivative of glutamic acid.

Also, most all soy grown in the states is GMO soy.

[Nalencer]

What's wrong with estrogen?

[Pressed_Rat]

What's wrong with estrogen?There are many things wrong with it, and for males it should be pretty self-explanatory. But it's not good for females, either, because it overloads their system and can lead to breast and ovarian cancer.

For males, it causes a decrease in the sperm count, and countries that consume lots of soy often have lower birth rates. More and more of the big food companies are adding soy to their products, so it should come as no surprise to those in the know that the average male sperm count in the West is at an all-time low, and continues to decrease with each passing year. Of course the media ignores this because obviously they don't want people to catch on to what's happening.

The continued reduction of the male sperm count is shown in yearly studies conducted by the UN and their department of population control, or UNFPA. Of course it makes sense that the UN would have interest in the male sperm count, and that's because they're at the forefront of the Club of Rome depopulation agenda. One of the ways they're working to lower the population is by tampering with our food supply, by adding certain things to it that reduce male fertility.

Also, when soy is consumed by young male children, often in the form of soy formula, it can lead to delayed puberty and stunted growth, as well as cause them to be effeminate, which is exactly what those at the top want. They don't want masculine, testosterone-laden males who will fight to oppose their agenda. They want people passive, especially the male population, which has already largely been neutered psychologically via the media.

[Nalencer]

You've given me a lot to think about...

[brainstew]

hey man, not to be brash, but shut the FUCK UP. i'm sick of all you people licking peta's balls and whining about meat eating. i have no problem with vegetarians, don't get me wrong, but i don't want to be preached to about what i can and cannot eat. i like meat. i eat meat. it tastes nice. it is good for you, stop bullshitting me. it's okay if you think the cute little cows and piggies are not to be eaten, but there's nothing you can do about it, i'm still eating it. hell, i'd eat people too if they tasted nice. i'd eat shit if it tasted nice. my mind is plenty open, and i feel sorry for the animals in pain, but they're delicious and i like meat.

meaty peace,
stratface
I agree. I'M VEGAN AND I CAN SEE STRAIT THROUGH THIS KIND OF RETARDAATION. Some people eat meat, I accept that and I dont eat meat and people who do accept me. I'm so sick of all of the people contantly trying to make people feel bad. It's annoying and gives non-meat eaters a bad name.

[Carlfloydfan]

Thanks Matt.

The tofu I tend to get is organic, without preservatives, gluten free and has no genetically engineered ingredients.

Is there any ingredients I should be on the look out for the next time I get it?

I tend to get organic and/or locally grown fruite and veggie, ect., where I know the person growing it (or have some kind of connection within a degree or two) and can have faith that the food was grown in an honest fashion minus chemicals/pesticides, even if it puts a dent in my wallet.

But I have other reasons for not touching most meat, except for the occasional chicken my gf mom makes. But try to keep to tofu once or twice a week.

[Carlfloydfan]

I remember one lazy night months ago I found this random site surfing, #1 obviously being relevant to the convo.
http://www.oftheoak.net/j/10things.html

this site has a list of (many?) of the foods with GMOs

http://www.geaction.org/truefood/

A specific link within that last site talks about buying directly from a (local) organic farm by subscribing to a CSA. and than there are obviously farmers markets, which can be found in almost any city or even big towns, usually on warm weekends around 7-12...But times/days differ.

http://www.geaction.org/truefood/shoppersguide/sustainable.html

[brainstew]

The goverment supports anything that gives them money. There are a million more car commercials than got milk ones. Just about everyne knows about what animals go through, including those who eat meat. My point is people know this is happening there are SO MANY threads about all of this and after a while it's annoying. I'm vegan and I find this annoying. I love those anumals just as much as everyone but I don't go around ,"Look at those poor little, innocent animals!!!" It just seems a little whiney but I admire anyone who has thr courage to voice their opinion about a well debated issue. Threads liek this are ok once in a while but not all of the time because I usually don't mention anything about going veg on the forums but if I do elude to it I usually get a negative response because of all of the people making threads like this. people always refer to me as a whiny vegan and it's annoying because I've only rly mentioned my diet 3 times in seperate forums.

[Nalencer]

I agree. I'm a vegetarian, and I'm tired of people bitching about it too. It's a choice whether to eat meat or not. I choose not to, and other people choose to. You don't bitch at people and act holier-than-thou around anyone who doesn't share your choice. Live and let live, and all that.