Hare Krishna

[Donna]

I'd like to know something more about it so if anybody know...write

[ChiefCowpie]

i'd like to help but i never heard of it

[sleeping jiva]

there's a whole thread at the bottom in Philosophy7 Religion thread about Hare Krishna
click here: http://hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=432&page=1&pp=10

[ChiefCowpie]

oh, those guys...the hairy krishnas...why do they call themselves the hairy krishnas if they shave their head?

[BlackBillBlake]

And here are a couple of links


http://harekrishnatemple.com/

http://links.krishna.org/

Hope you find them useful.

Love,

BBB.

[Strawberry_Fields_Fo]

oh, those guys...the hairy krishnas...why do they call themselves the hairy krishnas if they shave their head?
Are you kidding me? They're the HARE krishnas, it's pronounced Hah-rey, learn to pronounce things before you go asking dumb questions about people's beliefs.

[sleeping jiva]

the main purpose in Hare Krishna is Krishna, God. Hare Krishnas are serving Him instead of maya. It is not a cult. This teaching, which is 5000 years old was brought in West by Srila Prabhupada, who formed Isckon, the international societry for Krishna Consciousness. In my opinion it's not a cult and they are very good people. it's not even religion. Hare Krishnas have respect for al religions, becuz God is one. Srila Prabhupada left 80 books behind, where he explains how Krishna looks, who he was and how yyou can serve Him. It's not a sentiment and yet it's not a dry speculation. I was reading and exploring lot of philosophies, but this one offers a complete deliberation from egotism. The point is to love instead of yourself or your friends, lovers Krishna, the guy, who controls everything and who is everything, thus you can love everybody around you unconditionally. the main prayer goes like this:

[Bhaskar]

Are you kidding me? They're the HARE krishnas, it's pronounced Hah-rey, learn to pronounce things before you go asking dumb questions about people's beliefs.
Lighten up! The guy was just kidding!

[Strawberry_Fields_Fo]

That's why I asked, "Are you kidding me?" If he was kidding, than obviously the thread no longer applies to him.

[Donna]

Thanks everybody!!!:) :)

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

What SleepingJiva said is pretty much it....I myself am a Christian Hare Krishna... Do visit the larger Hare Krishna thread...its really wonderful...also...

http://www.iskcon.org

If you click on FAQ you can find all you need to know...that's how I first learned more about Krishna...

[ChiefCowpie]

....I myself am a Christian Hare Krishna...
you are a Christian Vaishnava (whom we have colloquially called the Hare Krishnas because of association with the chanting of the Hare Krishna Maha Mantra are Vaishnavas...devotees of Visnu...Krishna Bhaktas...Visnu is Krishna) ...have you decided which sect of the Vaishnava faith that you want to be a member...Shri Sampradaya, Brahma Sampradaya, Rudra Sampradaya or Samak Sampradaya?

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

::shrug:: What's the difference?

[Bhaskar]

That which divides is not religion. Many schools of thought may coexist like many petals of a flower. A wise man would look at the lotus rather than a single petal.

[BlackBillBlake]

That which divides is not religion. Many schools of thought may coexist like many petals of a flower. A wise man would look at the lotus rather than a single petal.
So how come there are all these sects as spoken of by the chief in his post?

The thing gets too complex, fragmented into sects who then just spend their time putting each other down, denouncing each others gurus etc.

[gdkumar]

"::shrug:: What's the difference?"................SvgGrdnBeauty


"That which divides is not religion. Many schools of thought may coexist like many petals of a flower. A wise man would look at the lotus rather than a single petal."...............Bhaskar.


Dear Nicole and Bhaskar,

Both of you have satisfied all the true devotees. So nice to hear 'What is the difference?' So nice to read that we should look at the lotus rather than a single petal. I am happy and proud of you.

As long as you are chanting the mahamantra with all your being at His lotus feet how do these groups matter? No matter who you are, where you are and what you are, the only fruitful thing is whether you love Him or not. Even how you love Him, what you do for that does not matter. One just loves Him the way it suits him or her. Japa yoga, Dhyan yoga, Jnan yoga,Karma yoga,Bhakti yoga.... all are ways and means of connection with Him.

With love..........Kumar.

[gdkumar]

"So how come there are all these sects as spoken of by the chief in his post?

The thing gets too complex, fragmented into sects who then just spend their time putting each other down, denouncing each others gurus etc."
...............BlackBillBlake.


Dear BlackBillBlake,

You have so truly said it, thank you.

It is so unfortunate that we fail to understand this. But it is never too late, let us understand the fact now and try not to indulge into such acts and deeds.

ChiefCowPie is an enigma for me, I really do not understand him. The only thing I understand is that he also feels the same pain as you and I do about it. He is a very large container full of knowledge-nectar and he wants all of us, irrespective of our religious positions, to share and enjoy the same. I believe his only intention was to find out SvgGrdnBeauty's reactions and ideas about those sampradayas. I am sure he has very high opinions about her. I am one of his charmed friends.

With love.........Kumar.

[ChiefCowpie]

::shrug:: What's the difference?

http://www.harekrsna.com/philosophy/gss/sadhu/sampradayas/head11.gif




http://www.harekrsna.com/philosophy/gss/sadhu/sampradayas/siva/visnuswami.gif

Sri Visnuswami







"Both Jiva Goswami in his Bhagavata Sandarbha and Krsnadasa Kaviraja in his Caitanya-caritamrta look to Sripad Visnuswami for inspiration to establish the essential difference between God and the individual souls and quote from his Sarvajnasukta, his commentary on Vedanta.



Visnuswami is the founder-acarya of the Rudra sampradaya, which is the oldest of the four recognized sampradayas. It is even said that Visnuswami was born in the Dravida country after the completion of the sacrifice of Janamejaya, around the beginnining of Kali-yuga.



Although most scholars are only able to find scanty and conflicting information on Sripada Visnuswami, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura gives us a authoritive biographical account of Visnuswami which we accept to be authoritive.



There were three Acaryas bearing the name of Visnuswami in the Rudra sampradaya. The first is called Adi Visnuswami, who is said to have been born about the third century B.C. in the Pandyan country. Visnuswami's father Devesvara was the royal priest and minister. Devatanu, as he was known before he took the sannyasa name of Visnuswami, was trained by his father in a vigorous theistic eduacation, to fight Buddhism. The Pandyan king exerted all his influence to crush Buddhism in particular and other non-vaisnava sects in general. King Pandyovijaya and his minister, Devesvara, went to Puri and recovered the Deities of Jagannatha, Balarama and Subhadra, which had been turned into the Buddhist Dharma by Buddha and Samgha by the Buddhists. King Padyovijaya and Devesvara removed the deities from the main temple to sundaracala about two miles away by cart. This is said to be the origin of the Rathayatra of Jagannatha. Now the ceremony of conveying the Deities from the temple to the car is named Pahandi or Panduvijaya. The word Panda is applied to the priests of Jagannatha and is said to be derived from the "Pandya". The Deities were again brought back to the temple after Buddhism had been supressed to some extent.



Visnuswami was the first to adopt tridandi sannyasa which he brought into practice among his seven hundred sannyasa disciples. It was he who introduce the Astottara satanami sannyasa (108 designations of sannyasis) including the dasanami which was adopted by Sankara in his sect. It was not Sankara who originated it, as some scholars think. Vyasesvara was the last in the line of Sannyasis, after whom the line became almost extinct, until it was revived by Raja Gopal who also assumed the name of Visnuswami in the beginning of the 9th century. His main follower was Bilvamangala.



Raja Gopala Visnuswami revived the old Visnuswami line and began the active propaganda with renewed vigour and enthusiasm. He installed the Varadaraja temple in Kanci, Ranchorlal in Dwaraka, and many other Deities in different places of pilgrimage. He converted many of Sankara's prominant disciples after Sankara's death.



After the disappearance of the second Visnuswami a great feud took place between his community and that of Saivasivaswami, who regards Rudra as an independant God while the former holds Rudra as Guru and the intimate associate of Visnu. The Saiva opposed it vigorously and peoplefailing to appreciate the subtle point of theism in the Suddhadvaita system of Visnuswami became inclined to Saivite monism, which soon became embraced by the population in general. The Saivaite community, taking advantage of the situation, tried to misappropriate Visnuswami's Sarvajnasukta and modified it to a great extent to suit their system.



The third revival came under Andhra Visnuswami in the 13th century, whose successors included Laksmana Bhatta, the father of Vallabhacarya. This Visnuswami is said to have been the son of a minister of a Dravidian prince under the Emperor of Delhi.



Visnuswami's philosophy is visuddhadvaita. Brahman as Visnu, Narasimha, non-dual and having no second. Brahman has all contradictory qualities. The soul is part of Brahman like spiritual sparks, real, eternal, atomic and dependent. Creation has no motive , it is like a cosmic game and it directly emanates from Brahman. The cause of bondage is one's attachement to karma. The process of release is devotion based on Bhagavata. The goal of life is to attain uninterupted contact with Krsna, Vaikuntha salokya where there is no return." Modified version of a posting to soc.religion.vaisnava by Nathan Parker, 1995.

[ChiefCowpie]

Various Sampradayas were present at the time
Suka Dev recited Srimand Bhagavatam

There are four transcendental schools ( Sampradayas ) that teach pure Devotion to the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

1. Brahma Sampradaya beginning from Brahma after His initiation (http://www.dharmakshetra.com/sages/relaization%20of%20brahma.htm) from the Personality of Godhead
2. Rudra Sampradaya beginning from Sankara or Mahadeva
3. Sri Sampradaya beginning from Srimati Laxmi Devi the Eternal Consort of Sri Narayana
4. Kumar Sampradaya (http://www.dharmakshetra.com/sages/Kumaras.htm) beginning from the Kumars namely Sanak, Sanat, Sanatan and Kumars.


Sree Madhyacharya belonged to Brahma Sampradaya
Sree Ramanuja belonged to the Sree Sampradaya
Sree Vishnuswami belonged to the Rudra Sampradaya
Sree Nimbaditya Acarya belonged to Kumar Sampradaya



All these four Acharyas are bona fide preachers of the pure transcendental philosophy dealing with the problems of the world, living entities and the Supreme Personality of Godhead who is the cause of the creation as well as the living entities, who falsely try to dominate over the creation and the controlling energy known as the material Nature. End

[ChiefCowpie]

http://www.dharmakshetra.com/sages/kumaras.JPG

THE FOUR KUMARAS

Sanaka, Sanandana, Sanatana and Sanat kumara

The four MANASPUTRAS created by Lord Brahma

A man meets a virtuous person when his 'good fortune' arrives and his soul attains enlightenment and his mind becomes pure by the destruction of his ignorance and attachment. When Brahma decided to commence the sequence of creation, he first of all created four Kumaras by just having a wish in his mind.

They were Sanaka, Sanandana, Sanatana and Sanatkumara. Brahma had experienced the sight of Lord Vishnu sleeping on the back of Ananta Shesha after performing penance for thousands of years. Lord Vishnu pleased with his penance gave to him the basic knowledge of the Veda. Only after getting that knowledge, (http://www.dharmakshetra.com/sages/relaization%20of%20brahma.htm) he commenced his creation.


When the four Kumaras came into existence, they were all embodiments of pure qualities. They did not have any sign of negative qualities like laziness, sleep etc. Brahma had created these four Kumaras so that they could help in the process of creation. But they refused when they were ordered by Brahma to do so. So these four Kumaras—kumara means unmarried brahmacaris. Because in the beginning Brahma begot so many sons, and each of them were asked to increase the population. Sanaka, Sananda, Sanatana, they were also requested by their father to increase population, but they refused. They said, “No, we are not going to be entangled in these material affairs. We shall remain kumaras, brahmacaris, and preach the glories of Godhead,” by which Brahma became angry. And while he was angry, from his anger Rudra, Siva (http://www.dharmakshetra.com/sages/Siva.html), was produced frm his forehead.

Actually these four Kumaras are eternaly liberated souls. All of them are pious and virtuous right from their birth and engaged themselves in activities like chanting the name of the Lord, listening about the lords divine activities, pastimes etc. Not for a single moment in their minds, came the desires for worldly matters. They chant 'Hari nama' all the time. They never utter anything mundane. The constant chanting of this mantra has its effect. They never face any danger to their lives and always remaine like a child of five years. Neither do they have mudane desires nor do they suffer from defects.

These four Kumaras, as siddhesvaras, had achieved all the yogic perfectional achievements ( siddhis ), and as such they travel in outer space without machines.


Prithu and sage Narada (http://www.dharmakshetra.com/sages/Narada.htm) were fortunate to receive knowledge from these Kumaras.






Sanaka, Sanatana, Sananda, Sanat-kumar

These four Kumaras are vastly learned, and they preached the philosophical way of understanding the Absolute Truth. Sankya. Later on, they became unalloyed devotees of lord Vishnu, and now have their sampradaya, or party, and is called the Sanakadi-sampradaya. Some refer to this Sampradya as the,

Nimbarka - Sampradaya. (http://www.dharmakshetra.com/sages/nimbarka.htm)



General Lessons from the Kumars

KUMARA SANAKA: There is no greater pilgrimage like the river the Ganges, no greater teacher like one's own mother, no deity like Lord Vishnu and the Guru is the greatest of all. There is no other brother like peace, no other penance like truth, no other gain better than salvation of the soul and there is no river like the Ganges. Charity, enjoyment and destruction are the only three movements of wealth. The wealth which is neither used in doing charities nor is cherished gets destroyed. Plants too have lives and nourish and protect the human society with its fruits, roots and branches. If a man does not chant the holy , then he is like a dead person.

KUMARA SANANDANA: Bhagavan (Krishna) means, one who is full of all the splendours, all the virtuousness and religiousness, all the fame, all the knowledge, all the wealth and fortune and also possesses all the apathy and who also knows the cause of the creation and destruction. One who has the knowledge of all these 6 things is entitled to be called learned.

KUMARA SANATANA: One must follow the rules as it has been described in the sacred texts on Dashami (Tenth Day), Ekadashi(Eleventh Day) and Dwadashi (Twelfth day). One should avoid the followings ten things on Dashami day- pots and vessels made of bronze, eating grains, honey, spinach, pumpkin, lentils and food given by others, having food for the second time in a day and making sexual contacts with wife. On Ekadashi, the following should be avoided- gambling, sleeping, chewing beetle leaves, brushing of teeth, violence, copulating and untruthfulness. On Dwadashi, the following should be avoided- items made of bronze, wine, honey, oil, untruthfulness, doing exercise, going abroad, having food twice during the day, copulating and touching those things which are not worth touching and eating lentils. KUMARA SANATKUMARA: One who has is self-realized neither sees the death of the body, diseases nor the sorrows because he understands that the real self is the soul (Atma). When the diet is pure then the inner self becomes pure and when the inner self becomes pure then he acquires remembrance of his past lives (Smriti) and he attains eternal knowledge about the permanence of the soul and the ephimeral nature of the physical body. Fools and ignorant people are fearful of thousands of things but the learned man who has attained self-realization is not affected by the fear. Death and fear have been conquered. The material enviroment becomes friendly and serves the devotee with folded hands.

[ChiefCowpie]

That which divides is not religion. Many schools of thought may coexist like many petals of a flower. A wise man would look at the lotus rather than a single petal.
the four sampradayas are all in agreement and therefore not necessarily different schools of thought...the different sampradayas share much thought and personalities ... four kumaras for example are accepted my all as great mahajanas... the sampradayas are ancient discplic succession lines of initiation into bhakti yoga and chanting of which initiation is important

[ChiefCowpie]

So how come there are all these sects as spoken of by the chief in his post?

The thing gets too complex, fragmented into sects who then just spend their time putting each other down, denouncing each others gurus etc.
sad but sometimes true but those who strive for deeper understanding see no differences between teachers...only simpletons see conflice and hence confusion

[ChiefCowpie]

I believe his only intention was to find out SvgGrdnBeauty's reactions and ideas about those sampradayas. I am sure he has very high opinions about her. I am one of his charmed friends.

With love.........Kumar.
i would say my first and foremost intention is "buyer beware"

if anyone thinks they can just chant, shave their head, run around in peach bed sheets and be a surrendered follower and all will be happy...you may be in for some great unpleasantness

become intelligent as well as listen to the deeeeeeeeeeeepest intuitions of your heart in deciding your spiritual life

become aware of the historical dysfunctionalness of spiritual institutionalism

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

I was never a fan of organized religion in the first place...so being picky was never my bag...you've heard me say it once and I'll say it again...that all religions are fundimentally the same and that it is through our culture that they have become different...by saying that I'm a Christian Hare Krishna...I'm saying that I follow both the words of Christ and recognize him as the son of God while recognizing Sri Krisna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead...I follow both customs because I wasn't just satisfied as one...and that and chanting has made me happier and I think a better person...I don't really get the other things...and I understand that you were just trying to warn me or make me aware of them...but in the long run...I kinda agree with Kumar and Bhaskar....but thank you CheifCowPie for making me aware nonetheless

[BlackBillBlake]

sad but sometimes true but those who strive for deeper understanding see no differences between teachers...only simpletons see conflice and hence confusion
Chief - do you mean then that you think these vaishnavas who act thus are simpletons? I fear you may be right.

Only one qualification - when you say that those who strive for a deeper understanding see no difference between teachers - it is necessary to see the difference between truly realized teachers and those who hold their positions falsely or who are simply charlatans. Where apointee 'spiritual masters' in ISKCON are concerned for example, some of them have in effect misled their followers knowingly, and betrayed the trust placed in them.
Therefore, I think some degree of discrimination must be in order, especially for those who are young, often gulible, and lack experience.

[Bhaskar]

When chief said teacher, I am certain he meant a true guru who has had a direct experience of the Highest truth and therefore can guide us to that state.

Thank you for your informative posts chief, although I have attended bhagavat saptah with my guru, it was more of an outpouring of devotion, narrating the stories of various avatars, etc rather than a scholarly analysis. After all, bhagavatam was written with that in mind.

The story runs that Vyasa was depressed having written the vedas and other texts of very hgh intellectual calibre, he was still not satisfied. That is when Narada muni met him and he was insired to write Srimad Bhagavatam as a totaqlly devotional text, after which he found he was fulfilled.

Therefore I have focussed more on those lines in my study of bhagavatam, so I dont know much of the sects and initiations. I am a shaivite anyway, so it doesnt really matter to me.

The hindu literature available is an ocean of nectar, we cannot drink it all, not in several births. This is why we have gurus, who give us chosen loving spoonfuls of these works as the disciple requires.

As for what Billblack said, the trouble is not in following different paths, different schools of thought. The trouble is when you start saying my way is the only way, all others are false. The trouble starts when you belittle other faiths and look down on them. The strife begins when you lose sight of the fact that all these roads lead to the same final summit.

[sleeping jiva]

join the thread in the Philosophy& Religion category. If you don't divide why are you discussing hare krishna behind my back? -lol. Hare Krishna is not a religion. And to chant is enough -it's just a trick the cheaters use in order to get you. Just see no mentioning of Srila Prabhupada, no mentioning of hare Krishna mantra. Don't listen to Chief Cow Pie , he's not any authority for saying anything about Krishna consciousness. just read Prabhupada's books and chant:

[ChiefCowpie]

awwwwww shucks... sleeping jiva caught us...now we have to find somewhere else to talk behind his back

[Spinor]

Donna,

Here is a concise summary that places in a logical context of religious thinking, the great majority of Eastern philosophies, theologies, and ancient sciences.

Remember that everything is always true and false at the same time, simply choose your reference frame to get the notion and the 'truth' you want.

Since all notions and physicality arise from, and arrive at, the same place, once even the simplist of reference frames is presumed, their grows an infinite hierarchy of relationships, from the complex to the simple, from the personal to the impersonal, from the finite to the infinte, and so on.

Considering this, the substantive notions of religion generally embody a framework of dimensional 'collapse', or perhaps better described as reduction to one or several simple notions (or you may call them 'presumptions' or 'faith's).

This framework of 'collapse' may be more or less well-formed, and may or may not have many non-secutors. But, the key is that it is a framewrok of reasoning which collapses to several notions.

As a general rule, when such systems of thinking are formed, refined, and spread, the ones which were originally sourced in the most primitive of parameters, tend to become highly refined systems of thinking, with many blanks filled in, and present a highly abstract and transcendental explanation of life and existence.

Note that the self-reflective property of consciouness is again at work here.....when you start with something simple, an interative process of reflection generates complexity along with the highly abstract and transcendental notions needed to explain the complexity.

In the case of Eastern knowledge systems , they are derived originally from Vedic culture, which is sourced in the simplist of parameters....consciouness, your body, awareness, your environment, and your perceptions. This was a time when the notions of religion and science were not disparate. Separation of these two ocurred several thousand years later in western culture. (there are also several other parallels to this evolution on other isolated continents based on other systems of knowledge...e.g. Australia for example).

Hence we have the highly 'impersonal' structure of Eastern knowledge systems arising from, and based on, highly 'personal' and subjective parameters like consciousness.

Christianity is the antithesis of this (i.e. the 'reflection') of this structure. It is the highly 'personal' structure arising from, and based on, highly 'impersonal' parameters like recorded 'objective' events in history.

So, Donna, take your pick.....everything is both true and false.......

Bob

[BlackBillBlake]

Hence we have the highly 'impersonal' structure of Eastern knowledge systems arising from, and based on, highly 'personal' and subjective parameters like consciousness.

Christianity is the antithesis of this (i.e. the 'reflection') of this structure. It is the highly 'personal' structure arising from, and based on, highly 'impersonal' parameters like recorded 'objective' events in history.

So, Donna, take your pick.....everything is both true and false.......

Bob


Where Krishna consciousness is concerned,this too is purportedly based on 'historical ' events - ie the incarnation of Sri Krishna. We may believe these events to be purely mythical, but the orthodox believer does not. The stories of the puranas are taken as histories.
Really there is great similarity in many ways between the accounts of Christ and Krishna, the main difference being the sacrificial death idea in christianity.

One further point - where our mental knowledge goes, yes - nothing is absolutely true. But the vedas teach of a higher mode of knowledge, above the limitations of intellect of discursive thinking - at this level it is said, true and absolute knowledge is possible.

[spook13]

I'd like to know something more about it so if anybody know...writeUltimate Self-Realization : http://www.ultimateselfrealization.com

All you need is right here. (http://www.ultimateselfrealization.com/index.php)

[spook13]

More on Vedic thought from Sankarsana dasa:


/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
The Ultimate Self Realization Course (tm)
The World's Leading Self Realization Training System
Guiding Thousands Around the Globe to the Highest Enlightenment
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Under the guidance and inspiration of ISKCON Founder-Acharya:
His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Published daily to bring you the teachings of
His Grace Sriman Sankarshan Das Adhikari
************************************************** ***************

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
The Seven Basic Principles of Reality
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

1. Since everything comes from something and nothing comes from
nothing, there must necessarily be an origin or a source for all
that exists.

2. Since so many persons exist within reality the source must
possess personality. Otherwise how could it produce personality?

3. That Original Supreme Person is emanating us from Himself for
the purpose of enjoying loving relationships with each and every
one of us. Therefore the purpose of our existence is to love Him
there only this will satisfy us and nothing else.

4. Out of His infinite kindness upon us, that Supreme Person is
giving us a system by which we can revive our forgotten, dormant
love for Him. That system is known as bhakti yoga or devotional
service.

5. That Supreme has many names such as Krishna, Allah, Christ and
Jehovah. He either personally appears in this world or sends
His representative, the spiritual master, to us to teach us how
to revive the dormant love of God within our hearts through
bhakti yoga or devotional service.

6. That bhakti yoga process of reviving our dormant enlightened
consciousness is centered around the chanting of the Holy Names
of God. Although any names of God may be chanted, the Vedic
literatures especially recommend that we chant these names to
quickly be elevated to the pure spiritual platform:

Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare
Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare

7. Since we are what we eat, we should only consume vegetarian
foodstuffs that have been offered first to the Lord with love and
devotion before being eaten, and we should live a simple pure
existence free from sinful activities such as meat eating,
illicit sex, intoxication, and gambling.

Sankarshan Das Adhikari

Contact Information:
Phone: 1-512-835-2121
Mailto:sda@ultimateselfrealization.com (sda@ultimateselfrealization.com)

[ChiefCowpie]

More on Vedic thought from Sankarsana dasa:


/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
The Ultimate Self Realization Course (tm)
The World's Leading Self Realization Training System
Guiding Thousands Around the Globe to the Highest Enlightenment
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

I would deeply question any course that has to frame itself with such hyperbole and flash. Even if true, traditional Gaudiyas have had a rustic sweetness in their methods. I hope we see the return of those days.

[space_cowboy]

Gaudi (http://www.red2000.com/spain/barcelon/phgau.html)? You guys are into him? Some say he's gaudy, but I like my Gaudi gaudy.

[Burbot]

Looking up and reading about Krsna was my first real study of God...then i realized that none of the other religions could satisfy my beleifs of a formless supreme God but with the countless Manifestations that Krsna talks about...i think Hare Krsna is a beautiful religion, and defend it when anyone ever calls it a cult...
Peace Everyone, and happy soul searching, and hope you have good spiritual guidance...

[BlackBillBlake]

Looking up and reading about Krsna was my first real study of God...then i realized that none of the other religions could satisfy my beleifs of a formless supreme God but with the countless Manifestations that Krsna talks about...i think Hare Krsna is a beautiful religion, and defend it when anyone ever calls it a cult...
Peace Everyone, and happy soul searching, and hope you have good spiritual guidance...
Care is needed here Burbot. I agree that Hinduism is not a cult, and nor need Krishna Bhakti be a cult. But where ISKCON are concerned, the movement as started in the west by Swami Prabhupada, there are unfortunately all the hallmarks of a cult.
The problems have come mainly through two causes. First, Prabhupada's commentary on the Gita is both limited and misleading.
Second, before he died, Prabhupada nominated 11 of his senior disciples to act as spiritual masters after he was gone. There has been much controversy over this, but the outcome was that several of them turned out to be criminally minded egoists and even perverts. There have been a number of criminal prosecutions, for offences ranging from extortion to child-abuse. Nearly all the 11 have now 'fallen' in one way or another.
I met one of these pretenders some years ago - Bhagavan Gurudev, who impressed me as a phoney at the time, and has since served time in jail for his part in this scam.
When Prbhupada died, a friend of mine who was a devotee went over to Tirthapada as his guru. He told his followers that they should take drugs to know God, and ended up being murdered in an horrific manner by a disgruntled follower.
For some info on all this see http://mitglied.lycos.de/gbc/black/bogus4.htm

Nowerdays, ISKCON 'spiritual masters' are elected by a committee.
If you like Krishna that is good, but please understand that ISKCON represent only one aspect, one limited cult whose ideas diverge quite a bit from mainstream Hindu belief.

[Burbot]

oh ya, thanks for that info BBB, but what i mean by that i was like defending the people who just devote love to Krsna and like that...

just for the record...I am not a follower of Hinduism or ISKCON or any sort or Hare Krsna-ism, or any orgainized religion for that matter

[Desert Stargazer]

I will always be thankful to the Krishnas during my New Jersey hippie days. They were different, energetic, loving, and fed a lot of people. I bought a few books, and decided that there was no way I would give up sex at 50, (one of the requirements for being a devotee) so I never called myself a devotee...I did Love Krishna, (still do) even tho I hadn't called him Krishna when I was a Christian child. I gave up Christianity, and loved Krishnas message. He was the original cook, lover, dancer, atom maker, musician. I believe we all have the original gift..a fragment from our loving creator. He said "There was never a time you didn't exist"...so who am I to argue with that ? The books I read changed my life. Divine Nature, Science of Self Realisation...I was able to see what all of it meant, by looking around me.(and I learned about the 4 divisions which isn't a caste system at all) I don't believe there is one set religion to fill the needs of all the people...but the Hare Krishnas gave me more than Catholicism ever did. I just couldn't follow the recommendations in a perfect way. The Krishnas had a bad scandal, and I read the story. (Monkey On A Stick)...but corruption can happen to any group...look at the Catholic church...and Jim Jones, etc. The Krishnas have done far more good in the world than harm. When we truly know God, we trust him. A simple loving reciprocal relationship is all I need. Too much dogma, and I am out the door. Too many "must do" rituals, and I will rebel. I light insence, and talk to God because I want to...not because it is in the rule book. When we have God dwelling within, we never feel alone. And we learn we cannot pull the wool over his eyes...I have had people ask me why I gave up Christianity, and I tell them that it was impossible to believe the bible in total, and that women were not given equal status in the church. I have good Christian friends, and I have faith in their faith, but not necessarily their religion. And I also know some Fundie Christians who give me the Willies.

[Desert Stargazer]

PS. The Cow Protection Society (ISKOWP) also elevated my views pertaining to the need for treating animals well, and the results of bad Karma...when we do not.

[Desert Stargazer]

http://www.iscowp.org/Photo%20Gallery.htm

I wish more people felt this way in the USA, and the world. Cows give more than they take.

[spook13]

...First, Prabhupada's commentary on the Gita is both limited and misleading.
Please explain this statement in detail and cite your sources.


I don't disagree that there have been huge problems in ISKCON.

[BlackBillBlake]

I disagree with Srila Prabhupada's interpretation of the Gita because it is ultimately dualistic, and because a great deal of the teaching is effectively passed over, esp. where it pertains to anything other than Bhakti.

Also, given the mess into which ISKCON descended after his departure, I have to seiously question his judgement where his senoir disciples were concerned. He should have had greater insight into the characters of these people, and even if one accepts the 'ritvik' argument, I don't think a bunch of criminals with an appetite for power and self aggrandizement would make very good ritviks. They made very poor gurus.
There are also serious issues around events in India in the aftermath of the death of Bhaktisiddanta Saraswati.

As for my 'sources', it is my reading over the years of many books of Indian Philosopohy by a variety of writers, research into ISKCON scandals based on close personal aquaintance with several former members, material online, and my own experience.

[spook13]

I disagree with Srila Prabhupada's interpretation of the Gita because it is ultimately dualistic, and because a great deal of the teaching is effectively passed over, esp. where it pertains to anything other than Bhakti.

Also, given the mess into which ISKCON descended after his departure, I have to seiously question his judgement where his senoir disciples were concerned. He should have had greater insight into the characters of these people, and even if one accepts the 'ritvik' argument, I don't think a bunch of criminals with an appetite for power and self aggrandizement would make very good ritviks. They made very poor gurus.
There are also serious issues around events in India in the aftermath of the death of Bhaktisiddanta Saraswati.

As for my 'sources', it is my reading over the years of many books of Indian Philosopohy by a variety of writers, research into ISKCON scandals based on close personal aquaintance with several former members, material online, and my own experience.What teachings were passed over? Prabhupada wrote from a dualistic point of view and didn't claim otherwise: He is coming from the Bhakti position; you either accept that or you don't, but that doesn't diminish the quality of his work or make it misleading. Most other Gita translations are written from a non-dualistic viewpoint -- BG As It Is is the only one I've seen that takes the view that Krishna is God in person, rather than an incarnation of an ultimately impersonal Diety.

You've mixed ISKCON problems and your personal feelings into your reply. I acknowledged the scandals in ISKCON. I merely asked you a specific question: To explain why you consider Prabhupada's Gita to be misleading and to identify some sources to back up your statement.

[BlackBillBlake]

I'm not playing the 'chapter and verse' game.

The idea is that a guru is supposed to be, if not perfect, then very near to it. The very fact that SP made so many errors of judgement throws everything he did into grave doubt.
Where the Gita is concerned, he emphasises only Bhakti, and pretty well dismisses everything else.
Also - and this is critical - Chaitanya taught 'qualified non-dualism' not dualism, so SP isn't even actually repeating Chaitanya's message as is the claim.

[spook13]

I'm not playing the 'chapter and verse' game.

The idea is that a guru is supposed to be, if not perfect, then very near to it. The very fact that SP made so many errors of judgement throws everything he did into grave doubt.
Where the Gita is concerned, he emphasises only Bhakti, and pretty well dismisses everything else.
Also - and this is critical - Chaitanya taught 'qualified non-dualism' not dualism, so SP isn't even actually repeating Chaitanya's message as is the claim.I didn't ask you to engage in back and forth chapter and verse comparisons.

I apologize, I should have been more specific:

-What Gita translations do you consider better?

-Can you name books or articles that compare or critique translations?

-Regarding the differences in Chaitanya's teachings and Srila Prabhupada's, please direct me to your source for this information.

If you believe that Srila Prabhupada mistakes in administrative judgment, you certainly have reasons for holding that opinion and I'm not trying to challenge it.

Otherwise, you've made some strong claims; all I'm asking is for you to back them up with more than generalizations and experiential anecdotes.

[BlackBillBlake]

I didn't ask you to engage in back and forth chapter and verse comparisons.

I apologize, I should have been more specific:

-What Gita translations do you consider better?

-Can you name books or articles that compare or critique translations?

-Regarding the differences in Chaitanya's teachings and Srila Prabhupada's, please direct me to your source for this information.

If you believe that Srila Prabhupada mistakes in administrative judgment, you certainly have reasons for holding that opinion and I'm not trying to challenge it.

Otherwise, you've made some strong claims; all I'm asking is for you to back them up with more than generalizations and experiential anecdotes.
Gita translations I like: Sri Aurobindo, Swamai Prabhavananda/Chistopher Isherwood, Paramhansa Yogananda. ESP. Sri Aurobindo's 'Essays on the Gita'.

As for info about Sri Chaitanya, in 'The Teachings of Lord Chaitanya' by Swami Prabhupada, it is said that Chaitanya's doctrine was that the Atman is simultaneously one and different from Brahman. (acintya bheda abheda tattva). That is not strict dualism as taught by SP elsewhere.
At least, that is my opinion.

[Bhaskar]

A word about bhakti -

Bhakti does not have to be non-dual, indeed in the highest form of the 9 forms of bhakti (Sri Rama explained the 9 forms of bhakti to Sabari in a famous portion of the Ramayana) is to see God in everyone and everything, which is definitely non-duality.

Also nobody ever said Krishna is not God. An incarnation of God is nothing but God alone. Also you say people refer to Sri Krishna as an incarnation of an "ultimately impersonal God." But the God ultimately impersonal god you refer to is spoken of as being non-dual, the indweller of all, our true identity. What is more personal than your own Self?

[LovePeace]

Actually Srila Prabhupada did not write from the dualist perspective, but from the achintya bedha bedha (dualistic non-dualism) perspective of Sri Caitanya.

Haribol,
LovePeace

[BlackBillBlake]

Actually Srila Prabhupada did not write from the dualist perspective, but from the achintya bedha bedha (dualistic non-dualism) perspective of Sri Caitanya.

Haribol,
LovePeace
Thats the claim. but the works are dualistic through and through.

[LovePeace]

Respectfully, that is because you're obviously not fully knowledgeable about achintya bedha bedha. I doubt you were ever a Gaudiya Vaisnava either; or if you were you either misunderstood completely what you read or had someone teaching you who didn't understand.
The achintya bedha bedha philosophy is easily misunderstood, so you wouldn't be the first to fall into the dualism trap.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Respectfully, that is because you're obviously not fully knowledgeable about achintya bedha bedha. I doubt you were ever a Gaudiya Vaisnava either; or if you were you either misunderstood completely what you read or had someone teaching you who didn't understand.
The achintya bedha bedha philosophy is easily misunderstood, so you wouldn't be the first to fall into the dualism trap.
But why deal with dualism? Why not build bridges instead of barriers? Maybe I missed it....perhaps my solution is easier said than done...or completely off topic...but that's all I can bring to the table...

[BlackBillBlake]

Respectfully, that is because you're obviously not fully knowledgeable about achintya bedha bedha. I doubt you were ever a Gaudiya Vaisnava either; or if you were you either misunderstood completely what you read or had someone teaching you who didn't understand.
The achintya bedha bedha philosophy is easily misunderstood, so you wouldn't be the first to fall into the dualism trap.You're right - I've never been a Gaudiya Vaishnava. But to be frank, it would take a fool not to be able to understand SP's books, as they are not particularly challenging or difficult. I understand the Gaudiya position, but I simply don't agree with it.

As to who taught me - no one did, and for good reason. By the time I became interested in ISKCON (late 70's - erly 80's) it had been taken over by SP's successors - none of whom I feel could teach much to anyone about any spiritual topic. I repeat my earlier point that SP's judgement was obviously very flawed in his selection of those who were to follow on from him. Since a genuine guru is supposed to posses a complete insight into human nature, I feel that these facts throw any claims made to 'authority' etc into serious doubt. But given the facts about occurences in India prior to SP's coming west, it seems that he was importing a system and a heirarchy that was already fatally flawed before it arrived here.

[sleeping jiva]

"http://www.youtube.com/v/nFsaWzKmN7M&rel=1"

These guys have rejected the corrupted Hare Krsna movement(ISKCON) and are trying to preserve the original teachings of the Hare Krishna's founder Prabhupada while battling with cops, the deviant Hare Krsnas, security men and parasites. And this is going on in MONTREAL!

[widowbluntz]

Give me steak, burgers, meatballs, meat I would kill a cow right now if I had one and I would eat its raw beating heart GOT MILK?

[RELAYER]

Give me steak, burgers, meatballs, meat I would kill a cow right now if I had one and I would eat its raw beating heart GOT MILK?
Yea, I bought some soy milk the other night actually, thank you for asking!
It's always nice when somone is concerned about other people's nutrtion and overall health.
God bless you widow!
namaste