Loose Change 2nd Edition: THE TRUTH ABOUT 9/11

[biblefumesrweird]

"Loose Change 2nd Edition" is the follow-up to the most provocative 9-11 documentary on the market today.

This film shows direct connection between the attacks of September 11, 2001 and the United States government.

Evidence is derived from news footage, scientific fact, and most important, Americans who suffered through that tragic day.

IT IS EVERYONE'S duty TO VIEW THIS FILM!

Loose Change Video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5137581991288263801

Official Website: http://loosechange911.com

I URGE YOU TO WATCH THIS MOVIE!!

[Grim]

Yeah, I'll second that...it's a really well done film.
I always felt there was something suspicious about 9-11, as most people do...but this flick really puts together a lot of the pieces in a very concise, rational way.

[Ironcore]

The Government must have believed the population was pretty ignorant to believe this scheme would trick enough people to gain support for multiple invasions abroad.

I guess they were right for the most part. Why is it taking so long to release this information, and yet it is being ignored by major news corporations?

Oh right, this is the 4th Reich and what we believe to be the truth is something completely different from the facts.

I feel like a German in 1939. They should have done something to prevent mass murder by their government and now I feel like I am in the same situation.

God damn you America's leaders, God damn you. How can you value Carbon more than Life?

[CadenceKid]

yeah most americans are ignorant fucks who would never believe the information even if it was right in front of them.

[Grim]

Americans aren't so much ignorant as they are apathetic. Yes, a lot are ignorant...but most are fully capable of figuring things out - hell, most are aware something is wrong. When polled, the vast majority makes rumblings about there being corruption of a vast scale.

But they're apathetic. Older Americans are so wrapped up in providing for themselves and their families that they 'don't have time' to give a damn about government issues that don't 'directly effect' them...
Meanwhile, a recent conversation with a local kid I once worked with illuminated me to the teenage philosophy(I later got the same response from several others)
They don't give a damn. He told me, as did others, that "Yeah, sure the government is fucked up, and sure I'd like to change things...but right now it never directly effects me. So I'm not gonna go out of my way. If you show me some train, I'll hop on - but I'm not starting anything myself."
I'm not saying that attitude is a clear view of what all teens feel by any means...but it's a good window into why so many fail to rally or work in any way to change things.

[Ironcore]

So, what is next in the War on Terror?

[cloverleaf]

They should change the title to Loose Facts.

http://www.ccdominoes.com/lc/LooseChangeGuide.html

[catstevens]

(link)
9/11-What Really Happened? Videos, links, Articles etc (http://www.hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175850)
Some people believe that Osama is agent, working for US
Allah knows best
Bin Laden's Family Link to Bush (http://www.martiallaw911.info/archive/0-26-39.htm)
WALL STREET JOURNAL: BUSH SR. IN BUSINESS WITH BIN LADEN FAMILY CONGLOMERATE THROUGH CARLYLE GROUP (http://prisonplanet.com/bush_senior_in_business_with_bin_laden.html)
Taleban in Texas for talks on gas pipeline (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/west_asia/37021.stm) - BBC News, December 4, 1997
Bechtel tied to bin Ladens (http://money.cnn.com/2003/05/05/news/companies/war_bechtel/) - CNN Money, May 5, 2003
The BushLaden Network (http://www.prisonplanet.com/bush_laden_network.htm) - prisonplanet.com
How we trained al-Qa’eda (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4686.htm) - The Spectator, September 12, 2003
How the CIA created Osama bin Laden (http://100777.com/node/231) - 100777.com
US agents told to back off bin Ladens (http://prisonplanet.com/us_agents_told_to_backoff.html) - Ananova, November 7th, 2001
ACTIVE FBI SPECIAL AGENT FILES COMPLAINT CONCERNING OBSTRUCTED FBI ANTI-TERRORIST INVESTIGATIONS (http://www.judicialwatch.org/archive/2001/1075.shtml) - Judicial Watch, November 14, 2001
Bush took FBI agents off Laden family trail (http://www.infowars.com/saved%20pages/Prior_Knowledge/Bush_Took_CIA_off.htm?art_id=1030259305) - The Times of India, November 8, 2001
U.S.-dropped leaflets show bin Laden in Western clothes (http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/01/04/ret.bin.laden.leaflets/) - CNN, January 4, 2002
Bush & Bin Laden - George W. Bush Had Ties to Billionaire bin Laden Brood (http://www.americanfreepress.net/10_07_01/Bush___Bin_Laden_-_George_W__B/bush___bin_laden_-_george_w__b.html) - AmericanFreePress.net, October 7, 2001
The Bush-bin Laden Connection (http://www.texasobserver.org/showArticle.asp?ArticleID=480) - The Texas Observer, November 9, 2001
Bin Laden Family Evacuated (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/09/30/archive/main313048.shtml) - CBSNews.com, September 30, 2001
US helped Taliban to safety, magazine claims (http://www.guardian.co.uk/afghanistan/story/0,1284,636762,00.html) - The Guardian, January 21, 2002
US 'let Taleban men escape' (http://prisonplanet.com/us_let_taliban_men_escape.html) - The Times of London, January 21, 2002
Soldiers say U.S. let Taliban general go (http://www.thedossier.ukonline.co.uk/Web%20Pages/WASHINGTON%20TIMES_Soldiers%20say%20US%20let%20Tal iban%20general%20go.htm) - The Washington Times, December 18, 2002
Bin Laden 'met CIA agent before terror attacks' (http://prisonplanet.com/bin_laden_met_cia_agent_before_terror_attacks.html ) - Ananova, October 31, 2001
FBI 'was told to back off bin Laden family' (http://prisonplanet.com/fbi_was_told_to_back_off_bin_laden_family.html) - FairfaxDigital, November 8, 2001
Bush thwarted FBI probe against bin Ladens (http://prisonplanet.com/bush_thwarted_fbi_probe.html) - Hindustantimes.com, November 7, 2001
US agents told to back off bin Ladens (http://prisonplanet.com/us_agents_told_to_backoff.html) - Ananova, November 7th, 2001
Bush took FBI agents off Laden family trail (http://www.prisonplanet.com/bush_took_fbi_off_laden_trail.html) - The Times of India, November 7, 2001
FBI claims Bin Laden inquiry was frustrated (http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4293682,00.html) - Guardian Unlimited, November 7, 2001
Report: bin Laden treated at US hospital (http://prisonplanet.com/bin_laden_treated_us_hospital.html) - The Washington Times/UPI, October 31, 2001
CIA agent alleged to have met Bin Laden in July (http://www.guardian.co.uk/waronterror/story/0,1361,584444,00.html) - Guardian Unlimited, November 1, 2001
FBI AGENT ROBERT WRIGHT SAYS FBI AGENTS ASSIGNED TO INTELLIGENCE OPERATIONS CONTINUE TO PROTECT TERRORISTS FROM CRIMINAL INVESTIGATIONS AND PROSECUTIONS (http://www.judicialwatch.org/2469.shtml) - Judicial Watch, September 11, 2002





*Peace and love*




Yours Sincerely,


Cat Stevens

[Angel_Headed_Hipster]

Yes he is an Agent or was...working for various American Agencies (Oil companies, CIA, Black Ops, etc.) and it really makes me sad when I see hard working people in the Middle East who mean completely well actually say they support what he's doing, how can people be so easily duped? The day after 9/11 there was a huge march in the middle east for the truth and one of the most preveland signs that was being held up was "Osama is a CIA Agent"

[catstevens]

Hi Angel_Headed_Hipster :)
Yes he is an Agent or was...working for various American Agencies (Oil companies, CIA, Black Ops, etc.) and it really makes me sad when I see hard working people in the Middle East who mean completely well actually say they support what he's doing, how can people be so easily duped? The day after 9/11 there was a huge march in the middle east for the truth and one of the most preveland signs that was being held up was "Osama is a CIA Agent"
Do you know why they were happy?
Do you know why some of them support Osama?
Clue
What did US do in the middle -East ?
*Peace and love*
Yours Sincerely,
Cat Stevens

[AreYouExperienced]

They should change the title to Loose Facts.

http://www.ccdominoes.com/lc/LooseChangeGuide.html This site brings up some very important issues about the "Controlled Demolition" aspect of the film. The film is still very interesting though and I encourage everyone to watch it.

[Ironcore]

I couldn't find the part in that debunking site where he provided evidence that the 9 suspected hijackers are in fact not still alive.

[Angel_Headed_Hipster]

FUck that readers guide or whatever, I can go through any movie and debunk stupid little things, nobody's perfect, I would love to see them try and debunk the bombs exploding on the lower levels of the buildings before they even came down. The same people who read this shitty debunking are the same people who are too afraid to even watch the movie, they are so afraid because they know it's true deep deep inside and it's too horrific, "it could never happen it could never happen..." keep repeating that to yourselves guys...

[cloverleaf]

This buckling and the resulting floors falling could be heard as "secondary explosions" and "crashes" prior to the collapse. As the Twin Towers had strong outer shells and light weight trusses for floors, that would force the collapse inward as the towers were — structurally speaking — 95% air because of their open floor designs. It would allow the interior of the building to collapse first; so that debris and floors could fall inside the tower and blow out windows ahead of the exterior collapse. The Twin Towers open floor design, greater height (wind and structural loads), their supporting columns and fireproofing being compromised by the initial impact; is significantly different from all the notable high-rise fires used as comparisons in the documentary.

I can go through any movie and debunk stupid little things, nobody's perfect So you don't think that if someone is making a documentary they don't need to get their facts straight?

[Angel_Headed_Hipster]

No I think they should...but just because they made a few errors doesn't mean the OVERALL point of the movie isn't true. If you are an investigator in a criminal case, the first thing you do is see who has the motive...in this case we can see who has profited from this event and none of them are arabs, so well say The government, then you try and investigate the case more, and in this case of the crime, the government did everything in it's power to stop the investigation, Bush tried to put Henry Kissinger as the chairman of the invstigation in an attempt to cover it up, but they wouldn't let him, so they made Kean the chairman, who is probably just as bad and the entire commission itself has conflicts of interest in the oil trade, in saudi arabia, etc. this is such an obvious coverup and the fact you would go out of your way trying to discredit 3 college kids who are trying their BEST to make a change in this world and get people educated, and NOT go out of your way to investigate the ACTUAL criminals behind this. Sure Loose change is iffy, and they are making a 3rd edition and taking out all the questionable material, but loose change isn't the only thing in the 9/11 truth movement, it's one out of many things, and not even one of the better things in the movement, i suggest you watch "Who Killed John O' Neill" at www.wkjo.com. I also suggest you read "911 synthetic terror" by Webster Tarpley, and you should read the WTC section of www.serendipity.li. But it just makes me upset to hear that people will spend hours debunking loose change and trying to discredit this movement, but these are the same people who will never investigate OUR side of the argument, our Hypothesis of this event makes 100% more sense the the government's Hypothesis, and yes it's a Hypothesis, even the NIST who did the official government investigation of why those towers collapsed agree their theory of why the towers collapes (From Jet Fuel and the plane collision) is only a HYPOTHESIS and they don't actually have any evidence to back it up...so in other words Professor Steven Jones's Hypothesis is JUST AS CREDIBLE IF NOT MORE than the governments, again there is no official story, there has not been an investigation, the 9/11 commission was told not to investigate where the money came from, who aided the terrorists, etc. and told instead to make findings of how our country can be safer from NEW attacks, that is essential to understand. THERE HAS NOT BEEN AN OFFICIAL INVESTIGATION INTO THE ATTACKS. Please, debunk loose change as much as u want and have a blast, but while your doing it PLEASE look at these sites I've supplied and just check it out for yourself.

[Pressed_Rat]

This buckling and the resulting floors falling could be heard as "secondary explosions" and "crashes" prior to the collapse. As the Twin Towers had strong outer shells and light weight trusses for floors, that would force the collapse inward as the towers were — structurally speaking — 95% air because of their open floor designs. It would allow the interior of the building to collapse first; so that debris and floors could fall inside the tower and blow out windows ahead of the exterior collapse. The Twin Towers open floor design, greater height (wind and structural loads), their supporting columns and fireproofing being compromised by the initial impact; is significantly different from all the notable high-rise fires used as comparisons in the documentaryFunny that, like the 9/11 Commission itself, you fail to mention the 47 steel columns that made up the core of the towers. You also forgot to address the fact of the bulidings literally exploding into dust and collapsing at free-fall speeds (in under 10 seconds), which totally goes against the government's bogus and totally ridiculous "pancake" theory.

As far as the explosions heard, your explanation doesn't explain the explosions in the sub-basement levels of the North Tower around the time of "Flight 11" hitting it, where entire areas of the basement sub-levels were blown out completely by what could have been nothing other than high explosives. How does a plane hitting dozens and dozens of floors above cause this kind of damage to the basement and the lobby area of the buildings?

[catstevens]

http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/ (http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/)
More links + videos, documents etc>>> click here (http://www.hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175850)

*Peace and love*
Yours Sincerely,
Cat Stevens

[~MorningManiacMusic~]

FUck that readers guide or whatever, I can go through any movie and debunk stupid little things, nobody's perfect, I would love to see them try and debunk the bombs exploding on the lower levels of the buildings before they even came down. The same people who read this shitty debunking are the same people who are too afraid to even watch the movie, they are so afraid because they know it's true deep deep inside and it's too horrific, "it could never happen it could never happen..." keep repeating that to yourselves guys...
People just need to WAKE UP!It's gonna take a computer chip implanted on there forehead/arm to get them to realize whats going on...Wait,they'll still probably say "Oh this is so convenient!Now I can just swipe my wrist when I buy groceries!"...FUCKING CATTLE!Is what they want us to be!

[catstevens]

9/11 'revisionist' allowed to teach post #2 (http://www.hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175850)
*Peace and love*
Yours Sincerely,
Cat Stevens

[Drifterz]

These 9/11 government conspiracies are absolutely false. I was there. I watched the planes hit. I saw the buildings come down. I also saw a photo of Bush being told in that classroom about the events taking place. He had quite an "oh sh*t!" look on his face when he was told. This guy, not even able to speak in public well, wouldn't be able to act well enough to put that face on for the benefit of a big plot.

[Grim]

Actually, the official story itself is a conspiracy theory.
An old man dying of kidney failure located in a third-world country cave organized and directed a team of men who couldn't fly crop-dusters to hijack and expertly pilot jumbo-jets...
...and somehow also had DEFCON stand down, and set up military drills just like what was actually happening on that same day(the odds of that being a coincidence are astronomical, by the way).

Oh, and he also made the laws of physics change for that day to allow a jet-fuel based fire to melt the stell used in the towers in that quick a time..
...and he found a way to make WTC7 collapse perfectly into its' footprint at free-fall speed without having taken any signifigant damage.

This is not a rational theory, nor a logical one. While I won't insist anyone instantly believe the 'conspiracy theories', I would suggest you give them a long, hard, objective read.
If you don't believe our own government would take part in such a thing, please google
"Able Danger", "MK Ultra", or "Project Northwoods". Also watch the film "Terrorstorm" by Alex Jones. 9-11 is nothing new...it is simply of a larger scale.

Bush being surprised by such a thing means nothing. He is, at best, a low-level puppet of the globalist cabal that engineered 9-11. He is an evil man, and a terrible President...but he is not at the top of the 'illuminati' pyramid.

Those who engineered 9-11(and 7-7 in London) are an international network of wealthy elite, who intend to not only remain in power - but extend their power to create a one-world fascist police state. The signs of which are all around us: The American Union, European Union, RFID chips, and on and on...


Please don't just watch Loose Change. There are a lot of 9-11 Truth sites out there. The mainstream media would have you believe the Movement is tiny - but in reality we are in the thousands and thousands and thousands...and growing every day.
Some good sites to start with are:
www.911truth.org
www.wtc7.org
www.scholarsfor911truth.org
www.ny911truth.org
www.v911t.org

...and there are hundreds more.

[goin_bonkers]

i think the biggest fact people tend to ignore is the whole people-not-showing-up-to-work thing. when you couple that with the reports of bomb drills the day before, that's enough for me to start asking questions.

[Angel_Headed_Hipster]

Yep...and most of those people were high ranking CEOs, some with intelligence ties.

[goin_bonkers]

yea, isn't it enough to feel the need to ask "why" ?

[Angel_Headed_Hipster]

Yeah well most of america and most of even this forum are too stupid and ignorant to even question 911...i mean of course bush lied about WMD but he is OF COURSE telling the FULL TRUTH about 9/11...yeah right, kiss my ass...

[wackyiraqi]

I have a couple of questions that I would like some opinions/answers on.


1) Do you believe that there are persons that believe martyrdom is the highest honor in Islam?

2) Do you believe that there are global organizations that receive funds from Islamic charities from all over the globe?

3) Do you believe there are persons who are willing to participate in martyr operations against US interests, in retailation for deaths of Muslims around the globe caused by the policies of the US government?

4) Do you believe that the training of agents, policies in place, and security of the US borders was enough to keep US Immiration agents from intercepting possbile terrorists from entering the US borders?

5) Do you believe that "Red Teams" found major flaws in airline security but were silenced because the airline industry and lobbyists were too interested in losing profits than providing security to domestic flight?

6) Do you believe that these "Red Teams" were able to smuggle blades, knives, guns, bomb making components, complete bombs, etc.. through security and released over a half a dozen reports indicating these security holes and warned that it isn't a matter of if a hijacker could take down an airliner, but how they would wanted to do so?

The reason I am asking these questions is that I often hear people with little or no engineering or scientific background discussing the events of the collapsse of the WTC buildings, but I very rarely hear anybody talking about the terrorists. Does anybody believe that these terrorists are fabrications? That al Qaeda and other Islamic extremist organizations are ficticious? That dozens of countries around the world have intelligence agencies and government agencies whose responsibility it is to track and conduct counter operations against these terrorist organizations and are doing so to further the belief that these organizations actually exist? That the thousands of agents that have been involved in counter-terrorists operations are somehow all involved in the "grand scheme". I am curious as to what people think about this.
Angelheadedhipster made a point that when investigating a crime the first thing investigators look for is motive. I suggest a similar approach, but from a different angle. Regardless of the physics of how the buildings may have fallen, regardless of who may have profitted from the events of 9/11. Who would have been capable to pull off an operation such as this? Who would have the determination, the finances, the logistics, and the manpower to pull of an operation of this size? Let us discuss this aspect of 9/11.

[Angel_Headed_Hipster]

I have a couple of questions that I would like some opinions/answers on.


1) Do you believe that there are persons that believe martyrdom is the highest honor in Islam?Yes, that is why it is so easy for intelligence agencies to manipulate them and kill themselves thinking it's for THEIR cause when in reality it is for the cause of Western Governments.

2) Do you believe that there are global organizations that receive funds from Islamic charities from all over the globe?Yes, but where does al-qaeda get it's funding? Not from charities, they get their funding from the Pakistani ISI, the CIA of Pakistan. Who founded, created, and to this day funds the ISI? Our American CIA. You see, if the CIA directly funded Al-Qaeda the people in that group who actually want to destroy america and fight for Islam would not have it, they would never take money from their enemy, but if they are funded by the CIA through the ISI, who Al-qaeda thinks shares their goal, they will accept it. The 911 commission itself stated on page 144 of their book that whoever funded the hijackers and got them into the country and made this attack possible, is of little or no signifigance http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif.

3) Do you believe there are persons who are willing to participate in martyr operations against US interests, in retailation for deaths of Muslims around the globe caused by the policies of the US government?yes, how do you think 911 happened.

4) Do you believe that the training of agents, policies in place, and security of the US borders was enough to keep US Immiration agents from intercepting possbile terrorists from entering the US borders?
No it's not, mostly because Bush has sworn to do nothing about the open borders and grant amnesty to every illegal immigrant that comes here. This is being done to destroy the middle class of America. They expect us to walk out on our streets as cameras watch every move we make, they expect us to let them listen to our phonecalls and tap our emails, yet any illegal immigrant or terrorist can easily get into the US through the open border, what a joke.

5) Do you believe that "Red Teams" found major flaws in airline security but were silenced because the airline industry and lobbyists were too interested in losing profits than providing security to domestic flight?
I would definitly believe that. Airline security is a joke, but if your an 80 year old WWII veteran you get strip searched going through the metal detector.

6) Do you believe that these "Red Teams" were able to smuggle blades, knives, guns, bomb making components, complete bombs, etc.. through security and released over a half a dozen reports indicating these security holes and warned that it isn't a matter of if a hijacker could take down an airliner, but how they would wanted to do so?I wouldn't be suprised, but I havn't looked into this so I won't act like i have. The fact is the official story doesnt include bombs or guns or anything like that, it was a bunch of arabs with boxcutters, i am 130 and 5'6 but I would still pounce on any motherfucker with a boxcutter.

You also stated how I am not a scientist so I shouldn't talk about the collapses and I somewhat agree with you, I don't know enough about physics to debate that fully, but I barely ever talk about the collapses of those towers, what I focus in on is who has the motive, who states in a federal document in 2000 that they needed new pearl harbor type events to push their agenda forward, who wrote a federal document taking interception orders away from the norad generals and to The Secretary Of Defense, etc.

I suggest you look into this, yes there are arab terrorists but they are poor and unable to pull of spectacular events like 911 without the help of VERY powerful people in buisness suits and briefcases.

[wackyiraqi]

Yes, that is why it is so easy for intelligence agencies to manipulate them and kill themselves thinking it's for THEIR cause when in reality it is for the cause of Western Governments. What about Mosques, Madrasas, and Imams that preach martyrdom and hatred for the west?
Yes, but where does al-qaeda get it's funding? Not from charities, they get their funding from the Pakistani ISI, the CIA of Pakistan. Who founded, created, and to this day funds the ISI? Our American CIA. You see, if the CIA directly funded Al-Qaeda the people in that group who actually want to destroy america and fight for Islam would not have it, they would never take money from their enemy, but if they are funded by the CIA through the ISI, who Al-qaeda thinks shares their goal, they will accept it. The 911 commission itself stated on page 144 of their book that whoever funded the hijackers and got them into the country and made this attack possible, is of little or no signifigance http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif. Zakat, one of the five pillars of Islam, require muslims to give charity. The Saudi Royal Family donates an immense amount of money to Islamic charities. This money is very difficult to track both in origin as well as distribution. Indepentantly wealthy arabs is another source of funding, which is also very difficult to track. An clear example of how difficult this money is to track is by looking at the amount of funds that were seized pre-9/11. In retrospect, it was virtually none. (This topic could be started in a separate thread)
yes, how do you think 911 happened.I am glad we agree on this. Some believe that the planes that struck the WTC buildings were remote control drones and the actually terrorists are still alive and well, living in the middle east.

No it's not, mostly because Bush has sworn to do nothing about the open borders and grant amnesty to every illegal immigrant that comes here. This is being done to destroy the middle class of America. They expect us to walk out on our streets as cameras watch every move we make, they expect us to let them listen to our phonecalls and tap our emails, yet any illegal immigrant or terrorist can easily get into the US through the open border, what a joke.I would definitly believe that. Airline security is a joke, but if your an 80 year old WWII veteran you get strip searched going through the metal detector.I should have clarified pre-9/11 security, but I see you admit security was/is greatly flawed.

I wouldn't be suprised, but I havn't looked into this so I won't act like i have. The fact is the official story doesnt include bombs or guns or anything like that, it was a bunch of arabs with boxcutters, i am 130 and 5'6 but I would still pounce on any motherfucker with a boxcutter. Investigators did in fact smuggle all these items through airport security, and while the hijackers did only use knives and boxcutters, it shows the relative ease of carrying such items onto an airplane. In fact, pre-9/11 is was NOT prohibited to carry knives with blade lengths less than 3 inches. It has been shown that due to communication through airphones, the passengers of Flight 93 were informed that these were suicide missions, which prompted them to try and neutralize the threat and take back control of the airplane. Communication from other flights indicate that there was mass confusion and some were not even initially aware that the pilots were not flying the planes. It is safe to assume that the passengers had no reason to take offensive actions against the hijackers if they were told and believed that they were returning to the airport. They were told to stay in their seats and stay calm. The scare tactics of the hijackers worked.

You also stated how I am not a scientist so I shouldn't talk about the collapses and I somewhat agree with you, I don't know enough about physics to debate that fully, but I barely ever talk about the collapses of those towers, what I focus in on is who has the motive, who states in a federal document in 2000 that they needed new pearl harbor type events to push their agenda forward, who wrote a federal document taking interception orders away from the norad generals and to The Secretary Of Defense, etc.I did not say you should not talk about the collapses, in fact I appreciate any open minded discussions. You say you focus on who has the motive, which in your answers you provided to my questions clearly indicate this Islamic extremists did not only have motive, but opportunity. While I don't gather you completely believe the Islamic extremist angle, you are at least willing to accept that is a possibility.

I suggest you look into this, yes there are arab terrorists but they are poor and unable to pull of spectacular events like 911 without the help of VERY powerful people in buisness suits and briefcases. The idea that arab terrorists are poor and unable to pull of events such as 9/11 is the very reason that events such as 9/11 have and will take place. al Qaeda was clearly underestimated before 9/11, and we have all seen what they are capable of. I have researched many different aspects and angles of 9/11 including many government "conspiracies". While taking an objective look at both sides (government vs. Islamic radicals), I simply do not believe that the government was responsible. I do believe that they have the capacity, but I do not believe that they were responsible. Both sides had motive, both sides had opportunity. The government was the only side that had something to lose by executing an operation with such a large risk of exposure. The fact is, the US government did not need 9/11 as justification to go into Afghanistan, and they did not need 9/11 as justification to go into Iraq. Afghanstan was in the crosshairs of the US government for years, they were just unwilling to act. They had every reason to take out the Taliban regime and al Qaeda. The post-9/11 invasion of Afghanistan has nothing to do with oil, natural gas, or opium. As far as Iraq, 9/11 was not the reason the US invaded Iraq. It was the non-compliance of Saddam Hussein. 9/11 just triggered a zero tolerance policy and created a large target for the US military to show their force in the wake of 9/11. The US could have went about invading Iraq with the same justification and same outcome whether or not 9/11 had occured.

[Angel_Headed_Hipster]

ok, so payne stewart's private jet gets intercepted in 18 minutes by 3 F-16s because he went a little of course, but 4 hijacked airplanes couldnt be because Osama and the Cave Dwellers made Norad Stand Down? What a joke.

[wackyiraqi]

ok, so payne stewart's private jet gets intercepted in 18 minutes by 3 F-16s because he went a little of course, but 4 hijacked airplanes couldnt be because Osama and the Cave Dwellers made Norad Stand Down? What a joke.What is this misinformation that NORAD stood down? 20-25 minutes after Flight 11 went silent NEADS was notified. 7 minutes later the Otis birds were in the air awaiting heading to intercept Flight 11.

[Angel_Headed_Hipster]

There was not a direct standdown order to my knowledge, although a Man named L. Chavez has said he was working for UScentcom in the pentagon and heard military officials talking about how weird it was that they had gotten standdown orders and that Cheney was in control of Norad, but that can't be proven. The standdown order was a silent one that was caused through the wargames. If NEADS was notified at the time that the official timeline says they were, they would have been able to intercept the plane EASY. Most skeptics say that since the transponder was turned off they couldn't find the plane but this is absolutely false, it would have been the only plane out of all the blips that didn't have it's info on it, it would have been the easiest to find. BUT, there were multiple wargames that day of ramming planes into the WTC and pentagon, which included putting flase radar blips on the screen which confused Norad and the FAA. That is why when the planes were sent out they were flying the complete opposite direction because they had been sent to intercept a false blip while the real plane was headed straight for the WTC. We need to find out WHO scheduled these wargames.

(Between 8:13-8:21 a.m.): Flight 11 Transponder Turned Off
(8:21 a.m.): Boston Controller Suspects Something Seriously Wrong with Flight 11, but NORAD Not Notified
8:25 a.m.: Boston Flight Control Tells Other Centers About Hijack, but Not NORAD
8:28 a.m.: FAA Centers Have Hijacking Conference Call; NORAD Not Notified
(8:28 a.m.): Flight 11 Is a Confirmed Hijacking; NORAD Still Not Notified
8:30 a.m.: FAA Command Center Informed of Hijacking; NORAD Still Not Notified
(8:37 a.m.): Boston Flight Control Notifies NORAD; Timing Disputed
After 8:37 a.m.: Otis Commander Phones NEADS for Authorization to Launch Fighters
(8:37 a.m.-8:43 a.m.): NORAD Personnel Mistake Hijacking for Part of an Exercise
(8:40 a.m.): Fighter Pilots Unofficially Told to Get Ready to Scramble After Flight 11
8:46 a.m.: Flight 11 Hits the North Tower of the World Trade Center

“Because of a technical issue, there are no NEADS recordings available of the NEADS senior weapons director and weapons director technician position responsible for controlling the Otis scramble.” [9/11 Commission, 7/24/2004, pp. 459] According to the commission, NORAD makes the decision to scramble after only one phone call, as the decision is made to act first and get clearances later. Yet there is a nine-minute gap between when the 9/11 Commission says NORAD is notified about the hijacking at 8:37 a.m., and when the fighters are ordered scrambled. This delay has not been explained. The pilots had already received several unofficial warnings before this order—possibly as early as 8:34 a.m., 12 minutes earlier. One of the pilots recalls sitting in the cockpit, ready and waiting for the scramble order to come. [9/11 Commission, 6/17/2004; BBC, 9/1/2002] According to some reports, the Otis fighters only take off six minutes after the scramble order, at 8:52 a.m. [North American Aerospace Defense Command, 9/18/2001; 9/11 Commission, 6/17/2004] The fighters’ initial target, Flight 11, is already crashing into the WTC at this time. NEADS Commander Robert Marr later claims, “My intent was to scramble Otis to military airspace while we found out what was going on.” [Filson, 2004, pp. 56]

"Flight 175 lost radio contact at 8:42 a.m. (see 8:41 a.m. (http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&day_of_9/11=aa11#a841bothplanes)) and changed transponder signals at 8:46 a.m. (see 8:46 a.m. (http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/item.jsp?item=a846changessignal&timeline=complete_911_timeline)); a flight controller declared it possibly hijacked sometime between 8:46 a.m. and 8:53 a.m. (see 8:46 a.m. (http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&day_of_9/11=aa11#a846bottoglia)); and a flight control manager called it hijacked at 8:55 a.m.(see (8:55 a.m.) (http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/item.jsp?item=a855controlbelieves&timeline=complete_911_timeline)) The commission has not explained why New York flight control would wait 10-17 minutes before warning NORAD that Flight 175 is possibly hijacked. [9/11 Commission, 6/17/2004 (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5233007)] It also would not explain why United Airlines headquarters would fail to notify NORAD National Guard after learning that the plane has been hijacked at about 8:50 a.m. (see (8:50 a.m.) (http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/item.jsp?item=a846richmiles&timeline=complete_911_timeline))"

"A fighter pilot flying from Otis Air Base toward New York City later notes that it wouldn’t have mattered if he caught up with Flight 175, because only President Bush could order a shootdown, and Bush is at a public event at the time. [Cape Cod Times, 8/21/2002 (http://www.capecodonline.com/special/terror/ithought21.htm)] “Only the president has the authority to order a civilian aircraft shot down,” according to a 1999 CNN report. [CNN, 10/26/1999 (http://www.cnn.com/US/9910/26/shootdown/)] In fact, by 9/11, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld also has the authority to order a shootdown, but he is not responding to the crisis at this time. [New York Observer, 6/17/2004 (http://New%20York%20Observer,%206/17/2004)] Furthermore, NORAD Commander Larry Arnold later states that on 9/11, “I have the authority in case of an emergency to declare a target hostile and shoot it down under an emergency condition.” [Filson, 2004, pp. 75 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0756739594/centerforcoop-20/104-8418683-8120742)]"

8:25 a.m.: Boston Flight Control Tells Other Centers About Hijack, but Not NORAD (???) (http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?item=a825othercenters)

Two F-16s from this base (NJ airbase) are practicing bombing runs over an empty stretch of the Pine Barrens near Atlantic City. Only eight minutes away from New York City, they are not alerted to the emerging crisis.

(8:49 a.m.): United Airlines Headquarters Learns Flight 175 Is Missing; NORAD Apparently Not Informed (http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?item=a849unitedheadquarters)

8:50 a.m.: Flight 175 Heads for New York City (http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?item=a850completeuturn)

(8:52 a.m.): New York Flight Controller Tracks Flight 175 into New York; NORAD Not Warned?

(http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?item=a852mccormick)

(8:55 a.m.): New York Flight Control Believes Flight 175 Has Been Hijacked; NORAD Reportedly Not Informed (http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?item=a855controlbelieves)

The head New York flight controller notifies a manager at the facility that she believes Flight 175 has been hijacked. The manager tries to notify regional managers about this, but cannot reach them because they are discussing the hijacking of Flight 11 and refuse to be disturbed. However, even though the controller managing Flight 175 said, “we may have a hijack” at 8:53 a.m., the 9/11 Commission concluded that NORAD is not notified by this time. [9/11 Commission, 6/17/2004 (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5233007)] The commission’s account conflicts with previous accounts stating that NORAD is notified of the Flight 175 hijacking at 8:43 a.m.

(9:03 a.m.): New York Flight Control Informs NORAD That Flight 175 Has Been Hijacked; Timing of Notice in Question (http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?item=a903noradflight17)

Ok...so I have to cut in here now...8:49 is when Flight 175 goes missing...Norad is not informed even know another plane has just crashed into the WTC tower. Then New York Flight Control doesn't inform norad about Flight 175 until 9:03? This seems very suspect because everyone knows one plane has already been hijacked and rammed into a building, anything is possible at this point. Confusion and incompetance can only go so far, this level of madness and confusion was not caused by incompetence because people would have been fired, this was caused by design through these wargames. Here a few quotes from Norad and the FAA directly talking about these wargames and how they are messing them up:

"FAA: Hi. Boston Center TMU [Traffic Management Unit], we have a problem here. We have a hijacked aircraft headed towards New York, and we need you guys to, we need someone to scramble some F-16s or something up there, help us out.

NEADS [Northeast Air Defense Sector]: Is this real-world or exercise?

FAA: No, this is not an exercise, not a test."

""In what the government describes as a bizarre coincidence, one U.S. intelligence agency was planning an exercise last Sept. 11 [2001] in which an errant aircraft would crash into one of its buildings.....'It was just an incredible coincidence that this happened to involve an aircraft crashing into our facility,' Haubold said. 'As soon as the real world events began, we canceled the exercise'." National Reconnaissance Office"

""The September 11, 2001 attacks occurred during that year's Global Guardian and Vigilant Guardian joint exercises.....Lt. Col. Dawne Deskins, who said 'everybody' at NEADS first thought the attacks were part of Vigilant Guardian."- U.S. Strategic Command"

"Although most of the personnel on the NEADS operations floor have no idea what the day’s exercise is supposed to entail, most previous major NORAD exercises included a hijack scenario. The day’s exercise is in fact scheduled to include a simulated hijacking later on. Major Kevin Nasypany, the NEADS mission crew commander, had helped design it. Thinking the reported hijacking is part of this exercise he actually says out loud, “The hijack’s not supposed to be for another hour.” In the ID section"

" Northern Vigilance is a military operation, not a training exercise. [NORAD, 9/9/2001 (http://www.norad.mil/newsroom/news_releases/2001/090901.htm); US Congress, 3/11/2005 (http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/031505_mckinney_transcript.shtml)] So presumably the “simulated information” is part of a NORAD exercise currently taking place, such as Vigilant Guardian (see (6:30 a.m.) (http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&before_9/11=militaryExercises#a630vigilantguardian)). Therefore, many minutes into the real 9/11 attacks, there may have been false radar blips causing confusion among NORAD personnel. Additional details, such as whose radar screens have false blips and over what duration, are unknown."

[u](9:04 a.m.): Flight 175 Crash Leads to Confusion at NEADS; Some Think it is a Simulation

NORAD’s Northeast Air Defense Sector (NEADS) in Rome, NY, has just received a phone call informing it of the hijacking of Flight 175 (see (9:03 a.m.) (http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/item.jsp?item=a903noradflight17&timeline=complete_911_timeline)), and several personnel have witnessed the plane crashing into the second WTC tower live on CNN. There is considerable confusion on the operations floor over whether the plane seen on TV is the hijacking they have just been informed of. Tape recordings capture NEADS personnel in the background trying to make sense of things: “Is this explosion part of that that we’re lookin’ at now on TV?” ... “And there’s a possible second hijack also—a United Airlines” ... “Two planes?” Someone comments, “I think this is a damn input, to be honest.” “Input” refers to a simulations input, as part of a training exercise. [Vanity Fair, 8/1/2006 (http://www.vanityfair.com/features/general/060801fege01)] NORAD has the capacity to inject simulated material, including mass attacks, during exercises, “as though it was being sensed for the first time by a radar site.” At least one military exercise this morning is reported to include simulated information injected onto radar screens (see (9:00 a.m.) (http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&before_9/11=militaryExercises#a900vigilance)). At the current time, despite the earlier crash of Flight 11, NORAD has yet to cancel a major exercise it is in the middle of (see After 9:03 a.m. (http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&before_9/11=militaryExercises#a903exercisecancelled)). [Filson, 2004, pp. 59 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0756739594/centerforcoop-20/104-8418683-8120742)]"

"
(9:40 a.m.): Hijacking Simulation Scheduled as Part of NORAD Exercise (http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?item=a940hijackscheduled)

As part of a NORAD training exercise, a simulated hijacking was scheduled to occur around this time. It was to have been based around politically motivated perpetrators taking command of an aircraft, landing it on a Cuba-like island, and seeking asylum there. The hijacking was one of several simulated scenarios prepared for the day. Details of the other scenarios are unknown. Major Kevin Nasypany, the NEADS mission crew commander who’d helped designed the exercise, initially thought the reports of Flight 11 being hijacked were because “Somebody started the exercise early.” [Vanity Fair, 8/1/2006 (http://www.vanityfair.com/features/general/060801fege01)] The exercise was canceled after the second plane hit the World Trade Center (see After 9:03 a.m. (http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&before_9/11=militaryExercises#a903exercisecancelled))."

Ok...that is enough information on the wargames, but the fact is if you still believe after all that information that Norad and the FAA screwed up from incompetence, there is no turning you around. the Norad and the FAA have so much technology and the ability to intercept commercial airplanes is like eating cake to these guys, they scrambled jets to intercept 67 airliners in the year of 911 (http://www.wanttoknow.info/020812ap) (From Sept. 11 to June, NORAD scrambled jets or diverted combat air patrols 462 times, almost seven times as often as the 67 scrambles from September 2000 to June 2001, Martin said.").

Now of course I know you'll shoot back and go "yeh scrambled but didn't intercept" but that fact is they were scrambled and went to see what the situation was, once they figured out it was ok the need to intercept wasn't there anymore, on september eleventh the hijackers did not respond to the FAA and Norad so they would have atleast been followed by F-16s the entire way up until they crashed, or a shootdown order could have been given by Bush or Rumsfeld who just so happened to be in the "wrong place at the wrong time" so they couldn't give the order, aww...im sure they feel JUST awful about that...yeah... the FAA and NORAD have the world's most ridiculous technology right at their fingertips, they scrambled planes 67 times perfectly to the script in 2001 but on September Eleventh all of a sudden they are completely incompetant? All I have to say is I hope you open your eyes man, it's sad to see someone not able to admit the truth to themselves.














(http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/context.jsp?item=a852mccormick)





[u]

[Atom bomb therapy]

I stayed up watching that video last night. Wow. Everyone in america needs to see that.
I posted it as a bulletin on myspace.

[Angel_Headed_Hipster]

I'm glad to see unlike shaggie and "whackyiraqi" you have atleast enough of an open mind to watch it without trying to critisize and pickpoint every little detail so you can debunk those small points and then claim there was no conspiracy and go back to sleep. Sure Norad standing down is a coincidence...then the pentagon hole...just a coincidence...norman mineta testimony just a coincidence...demolition squibs going off in the towers, falling at free fall speed....just a coincidence...each of these things COULD be a coincidence, but all together there is no way all of these coincidences could occur on top of eachother, it is not the probable thesis of what happened that day. The probable thesis is that this attack was facilitated and carried out by people inside our country who are very powerful finacially...the ones who believe in all these coincidences TRULY are the conspiracy theorists.

[yonosoymedico]

Yeah, who hasn't seen it? i dig the version 2.0, glad they made it...

[Angel_Headed_Hipster]

Wait till the Final cut my friend...the physical anaomlies are only 1/1000th of the film...there will be TONS of non debatable facts that prove conclusively that 911 was an inside job.

[wackyiraqi]

Couldn't sleep and noticed we got distracted from our previous converstation.
If you feel all these points have been thoroughly discredited, then why have you yourself not even discredited my long and arguous post about the wargames that day, its obvious that i have an extreme knowledge of the day of 911 and you know zip, so unless you got the facts to argue or debate me with, then don't talk.Let us continue.
ok, so payne stewart's private jet gets intercepted in 18 minutes by 3 F-16s because he went a little of course Payne stewarts jet was not intercepted in 18 minutes.

"At 0933:38 EDT (6 minutes and 20 seconds after N47BA acknowledged the previous clearance), the controller instructed N47BA to change radio frequencies and contact another Jacksonville ARTCC controller. The controller received no response from N47BA. The controller called the flight five more times over the next 4 1/2 minutes but received no response.

About 0952 CDT,7 a USAF F-16 test pilot from the 40th Flight Test Squadron at Eglin Air Force Base (AFB), Florida, was vectored to within 8 nm of N47BA. About 0954 CDT, at a range of 2,000 feet from the accident airplane and an altitude of about 46,400 feet, the test pilot made two radio calls to N47BA but did not receive a response".
www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/2000/AAB0001.htm (http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/2000/AAB0001.htm)

but the fact is if you still believe after all that information that Norad and the FAA screwed up from incompetence, there is no turning you around. the Norad and the FAA have so much technology and the ability to intercept commercial airplanes is like eating cake to these guys, they scrambled jets to intercept 67 airliners in the year of 911 (http://www.wanttoknow.info/020812ap) (From Sept. 11 to June, NORAD scrambled jets or diverted combat air patrols 462 times, almost seven times as often as the 67 scrambles from September 2000 to June 2001, Martin said."). ."In the decade before 9/11, NORAD intercepted only one civilian plane over North America: golfer Payne Stewart's Learjet, in October 1999. With passengers and crew unconscious from cabin decompression, the plane lost radio contact but remained in transponder contact until it crashed. Even so, it took an F-16 1 hour and 22 minutes to reach the stricken jet. Rules in effect back then, and on 9/11, prohibited supersonic flight on intercepts. Prior to 9/11, all other NORAD interceptions were limited to offshore Air Defense Identification Zones (ADIZ). "Until 9/11 there was no domestic ADIZ," said FAA spokesman Bill Schumann.

Terms like Air Defense Identification Zone (ADIZ) and temporary flight restriction (TFR) quickly came into widespread use among the general-aviation pilot group. Those terms had been around for years. Military fighters and the ADIZ protected American coasts from intrusions by Russian Bear Bombers throughout the Cold War. TFRs were used for presidential security and other extraordinary events. But they weren’t part of a pilot’s everyday life. You didn’t get intercepted and forced down if you flew through a TFR.

Today, things are different. There’s an ADIZ that surrounds Washington, D.C. In the four years after 9/11, it was violated over 1,000 times. The North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) has scrambled fighters for intercepts within U.S. borders over 1,600 times. In the year previous to 9/11, NORAD intercepted airplanes in the ADIZ only 67 times, none of which occurred within the U.S. borders.
http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/content/2005/oct/busting_tfr.html (http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/content/2005/oct/busting_tfr.html)

[Angel_Headed_Hipster]

"In the decade before 9/11, NORAD intercepted only one civilian plane over North America: golfer Payne Stewart's Learjet, in October 1999. With passengers and crew unconscious from cabin decompression, the plane lost radio contact but remained in transponder contact until it crashed. Even so, it took an F-16 1 hour and 22 minutes to reach the stricken jet. Rules in effect back then, and on 9/11, prohibited supersonic flight on intercepts. Prior to 9/11, all other NORAD interceptions were limited to offshore Air Defense Identification Zones (ADIZ). "Until 9/11 there was no domestic ADIZ," said FAA spokesman Bill Schumann."

This man is a shill...you expect me to believe the same guy who before 9/11 was BRAGGING in an article about how many interceptions that NORAD and the FAA had done perfectly 67 times in 2001, then after 9/11 he suddenly comes out and says "oh...we NEVER scrambled planes except once in 2001"...this man is either being blackmailed or threatened.

[wackyiraqi]

This man is a shill...you expect me to believe the same guy who before 9/11 was BRAGGING in an article about how many interceptions that NORAD and the FAA had done perfectly 67 times in 2001, then after 9/11 he suddenly comes out and says "oh...we NEVER scrambled planes except once in 2001"...this man is either being blackmailed or threatened.He said NORAD intercepted only one civilian plane over North America, he did not deny the 67 ADIZ intercepts.

Is there actually a source where this man said "we NEVER scrambled planes except for once in 2001"?

[Angel_Headed_Hipster]

"Even so, it took an F-16 1 hour and 22 minutes to reach the stricken jet (Payne Stewart's)"

This is an outright lie, and it fits you well because you are a liar sir.

From " Loss of Oxygen Cited as Possible Cause of Jet's Wayward Flight, Crash "
By: Lynn Lunsford
Dallas Morning News

"Instead, according to an Air Force timeline, a series of military planes provided an emergency escort to the stricken Lear, beginning with a pair of F-16 Falcons from the Air National Guard at Tyndall Air Force Base, Fla., about 20 minutes after ground controllers lost contact."

Yeah you lied, just like everything else you said here about 9/11...you are either an idiot or a highly paid shill just like many of the people that have infiltrated hip forums. yeah 20 minutes they already sorrounded Payne Stewart with F-16's...but it took those same people 48 minutes to even scramble a plane to intercept flight 77, after 2 planes have already hit the WTC...How was a plane which was known to be hostile able to have an unimpeded 48 minute joyride around US airspace before slamming into the heart of the US military.

"About 0952 CDT,7 a USAF F-16 test pilot from the 40th Flight Test Squadron at Eglin Air Force Base (AFB), Florida, was vectored to within 8 nm of N47BA.8 About 0954 CDT, at a range of 2,000 feet from the accident airplane and an altitude of about 46,400 feet,9 the test pilot made two radio calls to N47BA but did not receive a response."


From the Associated Press:

"If he hears anything that indicates difficulty in the skies, we begin the staff work to scramble," Martin said. Before Sept. 11, the FAA had to telephone NORAD about any possible hijackings.

From Sept. 11 to June, NORAD scrambled jets or diverted combat air patrols 462 times, almost seven times as often as the 67 scrambles from September 2000 to June 2001, Martin said."

http://www.911review.com/cache/means/020812ap.html

[wackyiraqi]

This is an outright lie, and it fits you well because you are a liar sir.

Yeah you lied, just like everything else you said here about 9/11...you are either an idiot or a highly paid shill just like many of the people that have infiltrated hip forums.I will repeat.

"At 0933:38 EDT (6 minutes and 20 seconds after N47BA acknowledged the previous clearance), the controller instructed N47BA to change radio frequencies and contact another Jacksonville ARTCC controller. The controller received no response from N47BA. The controller called the flight five more times over the next 4 1/2 minutes but received no response.

About 0952 CDT,7 a USAF F-16 test pilot from the 40th Flight Test Squadron at Eglin Air Force Base (AFB), Florida, was vectored to within 8 nm of N47BA. About 0954 CDT, at a range of 2,000 feet from the accident airplane and an altitude of about 46,400 feet, the test pilot made two radio calls to N47BA but did not receive a response".
www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/2000/AAB0001.htm (http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/2000/AAB0001.htm)

All of the information is there. There is no lie. Let me provide a bit of help for you.
http://www.mapsofworld.com/usa/thematic-maps/maps/usa-timezone-map.gif



If you notice the time recorded for the events there is a series of letters listed after them, EDT, CDT, etc.... This is called a time zone. The time of the last radio communication with N47BA was recorded in EDT. The time the F16's obtained visual contact with N47BA was CDT.

I do not know why you provided that last link regarding NORAD intercepts, I am not disputing that information and it echoed the information I posted.

[Angel_Headed_Hipster]

This is pointless...have fun in the new america...

[Angel_Headed_Hipster]

If anyone wants too see how credible whackiraqi and all his "facts" are just check out his myspace...this guy is a complete joke...words can't describe what a fucking quack you are, why don't you do us all a favor and leave these forums with your shilling, we all know what's going on, everyone o nthese forums show your support, come on here and tell whackiraqi that he is the minority and we all know that something shady happened on 9/11...he tries to come on here and go "oh well you believe theres toerrirsts RIIIIGHT, u think there are arab terrorists who wanna destroy our whole cultrue, don't you...your a bad americaaan if you don't believe there are arab terrorists who want to kill america, but putting our troops in a pool of depleted uranium is OK, i loooove america I support the troops because I want them to die, powerful globalists didn't pull off 9/11....they had the most to gain and the motive and oppurtunity...but it was dem arabs who did 9/11 because they hate us for our freedumbbss duuur" get out of my face you scum.

[makno]

it was apparent from the moment i saw the building fall without even analizing the fact that the thing just wouldnt have fallen in a heap from a lil plane .....that no matter who actualy did it , if they were islamists they were nothing more than pawns or agent provocatures ....that bush cheny and co would be given cart blanche...and those blamed would be given no quarter and be ruined .....always follow the $

[wackyiraqi]

come on here and tell whackiraqi that he is the minority and we all know that something shady happened on 9/11You just don't get it do you? It is so amusing. You claim you are not the minority in believing US government involvment in 9/11, and then you willingly disprove yourself by providing a link.

Just to refresh your memory.
http://www.scrippsnews.com/911poll (http://www.scrippsnews.com/911poll)
Scientific Poll Shows 1/3 of Americans believe in a 9/11 government conspiracyWe are not the minority, YOU are the minority sir.mi-nor-i-ty  /mi-naw-ri-http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngti/[mi-nawr-i-tee, -nor, -mahy-]
noun, plural -ties, adjective
–noun 1.the smaller part or number; a number, part, or amount forming less than half of the whole. 2.a smaller party or group opposed to a majority

An amount forming less than half of the whole. Meaning the 1/3 of Americans that you are grouped in, by definition, are the minority.

Another piece of information worth repeating is the other statistic found in the poll that you provided. Which is as follows....

Scripps Howard News Service
(Paraphrased)"The poll found that people with only a high school education and Democrats were especially likely to suspect federal involvement in 9/11."


.....always follow the $Where is the money? Bush, Cheney, Silverstein Properties??? Please expand on this topic.

[Pepik]

everyone o nthese forums show your support, come on here and tell whackiraqi that he is the minority and we all know that something shady happened on 9/11..Actually, wackyiraqi seems to have his facts straight - your story about payne stewarts plane is wrong. Why do you get so angry about it? Admit you're wrong and move on.

[Angel_Headed_Hipster]

Maybe "Conspiracy Theorists" aren't the majority, but people who question the offical story ARE. Look at this new SCIENTIFIC poll.

"
According to the new New York Times/CBS News poll, (http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/index.cfm/fuseaction/viewItem/itemID/13469) only 16% of Americans think the government is telling the truth about 9/11 and the intelligence prior to the attacks:

"Do you think members of the Bush Administration are telling the truth, are mostly telling the truth but hiding something, or are they mostly lying?

Telling the truth 16%

Hiding something 53%

Mostly lying 28%

Not sure 3%""




I would love to see you try to disprove this.



http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO111A.html
If the 9-11 Commission is really looking for a smoking gun, it should look no further than at Lieutenant-General Mahmoud Ahmad, the director of the Pakistani Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) at the time. In early October 2001, Indian intelligence learned that Mahmoud had ordered flamboyant Saeed Sheikh - the convicted mastermind of the kidnapping and killing of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl - to wire US$100,000 from Dubai to one of hijacker Mohamed Atta's two bank accounts in Florida.... Mahmoud's involvement in September 11 might be dismissed as only Indian propaganda. But Indian intelligence swears by it, and the US Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) has confirmed the whole story: Indian intelligence even supplied Saeed's cellular-phone numbers. Nobody has bothered to check what really happened. The 9-11 Commission should pose very specific questions about it to FBI director Robert Mueller when he testifies this month. In December 2002, Graham said he was 'surprised at the evidence that there were foreign governments involved in facilitating the activities of at least some of the [September 11] terrorists in the United States ... It will become public at some point when it's turned over to the archives, but that's 20 or 30 years from now.' He could not but be referring to Pakistan and Mahmoud. If Mahmoud was really involved in September 11, this means the Pakistani ISI -'the state within the state' - knew all about it. And if the intelligence elite in Pakistan knew it, an intelligence elite in Saudi Arabia knew it, as well as an intelligence elite in the US..... On September 10, the Pakistani daily The News reported that the Mahmoud visit to the United States 'triggered speculation about the agenda of his mysterious meetings at the Pentagon and National Security Council'. If he'd been to the National Security Council, he had certainly met Rice. Mahmoud did meet with his counterpart, Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) director George Tenet. Tenet and Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage had been in Islamabad in May, when Tenet had 'unusually long' meetings with Musharraf. Armitage for his part has countless friends in the Pakistani military and the ISI. Mahmoud also met a number of high officials at the White House and the Pentagon and had a crucial meeting with Marc Grossman, the under secretary of state for political affairs. Rice maintains she did not meet Mahmoud then.... Million-dollar questions remain. Did Mahmoud know when and how the attacks of September 11 would happen? Did Musharraf know? Could the Bush administration have prevented September 11? It's hard to believe high echelons of the CIA and FBI were not aware of the direct link between the ISI and alleged chief hijacker Mohammed Atta. On October 7, Mahmoud was demoted from the ISI. By that time, Washington obviously knew of the connection between Mahmoud, Saeed Sheikh and Mohamed Atta: the FBI knew it.... as Asia Times Online has reported, Mahmoud did disappear. He lives in near seclusion in Rawalpindi....The families of September 11 victims, US public opinion, the demonized Islamic world, the whole world for that matter, all everybody wants to know is what really happened on September 11.... The genie - the crucial information - is still in the bottle. "
9-11 AND THE SMOKING GUN
Asia Times, 8 April 2004"

Now we know that the same Sheikh Saaed who wired the 100,000 to Mohammed Atta has been proven to be not only working for the ISI but was an M-I6 agent the entire time (http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topics/article.asp?cu_no=2&item_no=110171&version=1&template_id=41&parent_id=23), he was a double agent. This means he most likely killed Daniel Pearl for coming to close to the ISI-Al Qaeda connection, because it would lead right to M-I6 and the CIA. It is admitted that Al-Qaeda is funded by the ISI. The ISI is completely funded and controlled by the American CIA (http://www.btinternet.com/%7EnlpWESSEX/Documents/FightSmart18-11-2001.htm), who is in control of the CIA? You have George Tenet and Richard Armitage having long meetings in Islamabad with Musharraf, what were they talking about? why havn't they answered 70% of the questions asked by the families. stop trying to make this a purely physical debate, these are the questions the families want answered. By the way Bill Doyle, the head of the biggest 9/11 families group has stated publically that about half of the families believe that it's an inside job. (http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20060709040719187)

Yeah that's right, so when you tell us were hurting the families it's a blatant lie, YOU are hurting the families by equating people who ask questions about 911 with terrorists, retartds, and whackos.

[Pepik]

Questioning the official story and believing in controlled demolition are completely seperate. I question the official story. But i laugh at the controlled demolitions theories - they are junk science.

[Angel_Headed_Hipster]

It isn't junk science, it's just a topic that will indeed be debated forever because no one knows enough about the fires and what exactly happened to ever really know. Nobody nows how long and how hot those fires really got, etc. but it is just as valid as any other theory. Why didn't the NIST even take a look at it, was somebody from up top telling them not to investigate that thesis? If they had just left the steel there for investigators instead of melting it down in china to recycle it and make other things, this in my view is one of the bgigest crimes ever perpetrated, the fact that they cleared out all the steel, does that not make you a little suspicious? In my mind they would have taken the steel and olded it together again for some type of memorial. Instead it goes to china to get melted down and recycled.

[Pepik]

It isn't junk science, it's just a topic that will indeed be debated forever because no one knows enough about the fires and what exactly happened to ever really know.That's the thing though, scientists did study the materials in the rubble, they just didn't reach the conclusions you wanted them to. You are making it sound like there is a huge debate raging in the scientific community, when actually there is near consensus with the exception of some fringe group conspiracy theorists, many of whom (Griffin and Fetzer come to mind) have no real qualifications for studying a building collapse. If they had just left the steel there for investigators instead of melting it down in china to recycle it and make other things,It was just shown to you that they did let the investigators look at the steel. You keep repeating this even after it has been shown to you to be false.

[wackyiraqi]

I would love to see you try to disprove this.I would love to see you prove this. This is the last two paragraphs of the article you linked.

In other words, according to the Indian government intelligence report, the perpetrators of the September 11 attacks had links to Pakistan's ISI, which in turn has links to agencies of the US government. What this suggests is that key individuals within the US military-intelligence establishment might have known about the ISI contacts with the September 11 terrorist "ring-leader" Mohamed Atta and failed to act.

Whether this amounts to the complicity of the Bush Administration remains to be firmly established. The least one can expect at this stage is an inquiry. What is crystal clear, however, is that this war is not a "campaign against international terrorism". It is a war of conquest with devastating consequences for the future of humanity. And the American people have been consciously and deliberately misled by their government. Whether this amounts to the complicity of the Bush Administration remains to be firmly established.

And the American people have been consciously and deliberately misled by their government.

Ultimately the truth must prevail. The falsehoods behind America's war against the people of Afghanistan must be unveiled.

Whether this amounts to the complicity of the Bush Administration remains to be firmly established.

These are loose unsubstantiated links that prove nothing.

[wackyiraqi]

BTW, I personally like the author, Michel Chossudovsky's article "Where was Osama on 9/11". What a joke.

[Angel_Headed_Hipster]

Your a joke you asshole.

[Pepik]

If your story is so strong, why do you need to constantly lie? The steel was not hurried away without being studied. This has been proven false over and over yet you keep repeating it. And Payne Stewart's plane was not intercepted in 18 minutes, this also has been proven wrong countless times yet you will never stop saying it. You say that "the official story doesnt include bombs or guns or anything like that" but the official story does include bombs. You've never read the official story, you just let conspiracy websites tell you what the official story is.

After all these mistakes, you can't tell us our story is a joke.

[heeh2]

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

[Angel_Headed_Hipster]

Ok, a bunch of stupid arabs did 911 and nobody powerful was involved....see you in the next ten years while america is a complete police state, if were even around in ten years. You can stay on here and debate everything with your government funded links and just say i have no proof or evidence of anything when I clearly do, 911 is part of a bigger picture that everyone knows is there, and it has nothing to do with Osama Bin Laden, so I don't have time to debate you people about what exactly happened on 911, if you can't see it was an inside job just from your own two eyes and actually need someone to point it out to you, you are too far gone anyway, jesus christ people how obvious is it. And for you liberals who try to disprove me, you think Bush would willingly kill 2,000 US servicemen and thousands of innocent iraqis for a lie but you don't think he would kill 3,000 cubicle workers for the Military Industrial Complex's agenda? You people are lost. I actually have a life to get to...like a job and a girlfriend, so i don't wanna spend all my time here on this stupid forum with you people trying to give me NIST links to disprove me, the NIST is a joke and even they know their investigation is a farce, just like the Fire Fighter magazine in NY called it.

[wackyiraqi]

a bunch of stupid arabs did 911 and nobody powerful was involvedHere are a couple of the more well known stupid arabs that were involved in 9/11, including 10 of the 19 hijackers, two plotters and coordinator.

Osama Muhammed Awad bin Laden-degree in Management and Economics at the King Abdul Aziz University



Khalid Shaikh Mohammed-degree in Mechanical Engineering



Ramzi Ahmed Yousef-degree in Mechanical Engineering



Mohamed Elamir awad al-Sayed Atta-degree in architecture, held a pilots license



Ziad Samir Jarrah-was studyingaerospace engineering at the University of Applied Sciences in Hamburg, held a pilots license



Waleed M. al-Shehri-studying to become a teacher, held a pilots license



Marwan Yousef al-Shehhi-received a military scholarship and was studying at university, held a pilots license



Abdul Aziz al-Omari-he had graduated with honours from high school, attained a degree from the Imam Muhammad Ibn Saud University



Satam al-Suqami-law student at the King Saud University



Mohand al-Shehri-student at Imam Muhammed Ibn Saud Islamic University



Majed Mashaan Moqed-student at King Fahd University



Ahmed Abdullah al-Nami-student at King Khaled University



Saeed al-Ghamdi-student at university



Said Bahaji-studying Electrical Engineering

[Pressed_Rat]

What about these guys? How did these two guys on your list manage to survive the crashes?


Abdul Aziz al-Omari-he had graduated with honours from high school, attained a degree from the Imam Muhammad Ibn Saud University

Still Alive.


Ahmed Abdullah al-Nami-student at King Khaled UniversityStill Alive.



For more information see:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1559151.stm
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/hijackers.html

[wackyiraqi]

What about these guys? How did these two guys on your list manage to survive the crashes? Abdul Aziz al-OmariAbdul Aziz al-Omari, Abdul Rahman al-Omari.
Al-Shihri, Al-Shehri.
Mohamed Atta, Mahmoud Atta.
etc.....

Different people, different names. Different people, same names. Inaccurate initail reporting. Errors is transliteration. Several of the 9/11 hijackers identities have been mistaken with Arab men that are still alive.

[Angel_Headed_Hipster]

Those people you listed, most of them have ridiculous intelligence connections, KSM worked for the ISI which has admitted links to the CIA and MI6. If you are so sure 911 wasn't an inside job, why don't you join me and rat in asking for a new independent investigation, unless the story you believe has something to hide that is...If those people aren't still alive why hasn't the mainstream media covered the BBC story and disproved it? The fact is, you don't have the facts and the truth on our side, you can believe what you want about the 911 truth movement, and being part of it i will say there are many people in the movement who are stupid and say stupid things, but in the end it isn't about theories, it's about getting the media to talk about 911 and people to study it instead of forgetting about it and pushing it out of our minds because it's so horrific. All the 911 truth movement wants is transparency in government and for the media to cover 911 with on objective scope instead of buying hook line and sinker the official story. We are on the side of right and you sir are on the side of the wrong, the side that wants to cover up, the side that wants to move on from the most hostoric, horrific event in our nations history.

[wackyiraqi]

What about these guys? How did these two guys on your list manage to survive the crashes?http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2002-09/10/article02.shtml

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/09/09/binladen.tape/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/september11/oneyearon/story/0,12361,789253,00.html#article_continue

[koolkat]

i knew it...
im moven to europe
screw this
heh

[Carlfloydfan]

People just need to WAKE UP!It's gonna take a computer chip implanted on there forehead/arm to get them to realize whats going on...Wait,they'll still probably say "Oh this is so convenient!Now I can just swipe my wrist when I buy groceries!"...FUCKING CATTLE!Is what they want us to be!the chip is creepy as hell, I admit..I am against it. if you don't want one, don't get one, simple as that. nothing forces you to, no negative consequences would follow if you did not. I mean, this is america after all. this isn't the mark of the beast folks, just something that is indeed creepy.

[Pressed_Rat]

Carl... you haven't done your homework. When it comes time to chip the people, it's not like you're going to have any motherfucking choice whether you're chipped or not. You are obviously totally clueless as to where this is all heading. Please, do some homework and become informed.

America takes every freedom it has for granted and thinks that it can immerse itself in sports and MTV forever without any consequences for being fat, dumb and apathetic. People who think like you are in for a massive surprise and it's high time to wake up.

[Pressed_Rat]

i knew it...
im moven to europe
screw this
heh
Euorpe is an even bigger police state than the US! Ever been to London? The city has over 4 MILLION (yes, million) surveillance cameras.

[Angel_Headed_Hipster]

Dude, you WON'T have a choice to take the chip or not....the choise is "Take the chip and be able to buy food to live, or don't take the chip and starve". Im about to start growin my own.

[Carlfloydfan]

dude if I don't want a chip I won't get one period. Thats my choice. if it means leaving, I will.

I am indeed informed on the nation and world. Ironically enough I am totally opposite of what you describe too. I mean, come on, I have a picture, it should be easy to see that! I don't watch fox for news, I go to places like http://www.commondreams.org/ and http://www.tompaine.com/ and http://www.motherjones.com/ for starters. sorry to disappoint, I don't subscribe to any cliche images of America, be it fat, lazy, ipod, abercombrie, mtv or anything else attached to our demographic. I just try and strive for originality and common sense. I am indeed a pretty intelligent dude but politics and conspiracy theories are not my forte, I admit. and common sense says a chip can't be forced on me, damn it, i won't take it! I know it and I refuse it, plain and simple.

[Angel_Headed_Hipster]

Nah man, you didn't dissapoint me or anything, i completely agree with you and I think your really smart for realizing the chip is a horrible idea, but the thing is that the plan is to completely get rid of any money or currency, and you will just have an amount of money in the chip, which will be scanned and taken out of it to buy things, it even says it in revelations which is crazy...

"And [the Antichrist] causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

And that no man might buy or sell, save [except] he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. Rev 13:16-18 KJV"

So i mean ill resist it to the end justl ike you, but its not gonna be easy.

[Carlfloydfan]

These idiots who want to implent these ideas never think of the implications. As we become more open and dependent on computerized technology, this information is more and more sensitive and risks being hacked into. think identity theft is a problem now?

Maybe it cuts down on money related theft and crime at first..but like a virus often does, it evolves to withstand the antibotic..criminals will do likewise. This won't hinder theft, ID theft, ect. in the long run. I hope people refuse this. With the ID card act, the govt' is striving for centerlized power and to take away the power of the individual states.

and who's to say this makes things more convienent? a crash in the computer system could screw this all up. Isn't that where the information ultimately is?..god forbid the storage is not totally secure. Will these chips last throughout the years? normal wear and tear could make scanning them difficult, and thus, buying food and items more of a pain. and couldn't there be agents (for lack of a better word) ingested through eating food or taking medicine that could cause a negative reacion in respect to the chip? maybe you have a violent reaction because you are allergic to the materials within the chip...or the materials in the chip seep into your body and nervous system. A violent inpact on the area of the arm where the chip is, work related, ect. could screw up the chip. computers fail, the aren't 100% reliable..this chip will fail in some people.

[Carlfloydfan]

plus there is no limit to the abuse and use of these chips. I mean, if the gov't taps our phone calls, they could just as easily use this as a tracking device. and it would be more subtle than wire tapping (easier to disguise), to the point where people would not know. how can you restrict this chip to the purposes it is said to serve, simply medical records and money...YOU CAN NOT! It is scary, the most threatening thing in our countries history because of the lack of acknowleging the problems. its not something to be embraced, that, PR, is why I refuse this shit..but if you want it, go ahead and get implanted since you insult me for not wanting this!

[Pepik]

If those people aren't still alive why hasn't the mainstream media covered the BBC story and disproved it?But I think the BBC has corrected themselves, its the conspiracy websites that keep repeating the "hijackers are still alive" myth which they know isn't true. I mean look, its several years later and people are still falling for a story that a two minute google search could disprove. You want a new investigation because you won't make two minutes of effort to figure it out yourself?

[Angel_Headed_Hipster]

I never said the Hijackers are still alive, I think they, or atleast the vast majority are dead. Mohammed Atta's father did say he received a call from him the next day on september 12th, and he was the so called leader, I'm thinking "agent provacateur".

[bassplaya]

ya, its definitly worth watching. so many good points, it makes it pretty damn hard to argue

[Pepik]

If those people aren't still alive why hasn't the mainstream media covered the BBC story and disproved it?I never said the Hijackers are still alive, I think they, or atleast the vast majority are dead. Your view on this is getting pretty confusing. First you want to know why nobody has proved they aren't alive, then you say the majority are dead.The majority? Are you trying to have it both ways?

Why do you think so many conspiracy websites keep repeating this BBC story when they know it is false? Don't they care about the truth?

[goin_bonkers]

a lot of sites are probably set up as disinformation. it's hard to trust much these days

[Pressed_Rat]

Your view on this is getting pretty confusing. First you want to know why nobody has proved they aren't alive, then you say the majority are dead.The majority? Are you trying to have it both ways?

Why do you think so many conspiracy websites keep repeating this BBC story when they know it is false? Don't they care about the truth?
I can't answer for anyone else, however, at least SEVEN of the 19 hijackers are known to still be alive. It's not a conspiracy theory.

[wackyiraqi]

I can't answer for anyone else, however, at least SEVEN of the 19 hijackers are known to still be alive. It's not a conspiracy theory.You are misinformed. Do not confuse yourself by premature stories that were reported. Most of this confusion was caused by not looking closely at the actual aliases of the known hijackers.

[Pressed_Rat]

No, you are misinformed. Even the FBI director admitted after the fact that some of the identities of the hijackers were in doubt.

None of the airline passenger lists name a single one of the alleged hijackers.

Mohammed Atta's father says Atta called him on Sept 12.

[Pepik]

Show me a passenger list that doesn't include the hijackers.

[Pressed_Rat]

cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/AA11.victims.html (http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/AA11.victims.html)
cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/AA77.victims.html (http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/AA77.victims.html)
cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/ua175.victims.html (http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/ua175.victims.html)
cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/ua93.victims.html (http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/ua93.victims.html)

Also see:

The 9-11 Passenger List Oddity
by Vincent Sammartino

http://www.wingtv.net/thornarticles/911passengerlist.html

[Pepik]

That's a list of victims. The hijackers weren't victims you dumbass.

Time to wake up. You got conned by a conspiracy website - AGAIN.

[Angel_Headed_Hipster]

Yeah Ill agree with you there Pepik, That was just the victims list, what could be more insensitive then putting the Hijackers on a list of victims for the families? Real 911 researchers know that after the Moussoui Trial they released the REAL flight manifests which do have the hijackers names on them...but that is far from disproving that 911 was not an inside job. You do know many of those hijackers including Mohammed Atta were trained at US naval bases right?

[Pressed_Rat]

Real 911 researchers know that after the Moussoui Trial they released the REAL flight manifests which do have the hijackers names on them...
Real researchers like who? Alex Jones?

Yeah, I am sure they were the "real" flight manifests.

[madcrappie]

hahaha this is even getting more ridiculous

:hysterica

next thing you are going to tell me was that the planes were attacked by a pack of chupacabras

[Pressed_Rat]

Well, I am not stupid enough to believe that people with NO flight experience were able to crash four planes into 75% of thier targets, when literally dozens of professional pilots have stated on record that it would be nearly impossible for someone with even YEARS of flight experience to pull of such a stunt.

Some of you people really need to start exercising some critical thinking.

9/11 wasn't the product of some man in a cave on dialysis. THAT'S the most ridiculous thing I've heard.

[Pepik]

Well, I am not stupid enough to believe that people with NO flight experience were able to crash four planes into 75% of thier targets...But you are stupid enough to believe the hijackers are still alive and that a list of victims is a flight manifest?

Keep in mind, you are the one constantly telling people they know nothing and insulting their intelligence, boasting that you have done loads of research and that you are an independent thinker. Yet here you are repeating a cliche conspiracy myth - one of the oldest 9/11 myths - one which could be debunked in less that two minutes with minimal effort. Yet you don't make the effort. You claim to be an independent thinker yet your conspiracy evidence mirrors exactly what the popular conspiracy websites are saying.

But lets get back to your story about people with no flight experience. Didn't these people have commercial pilots licenses? Yes. How do you get a commercial pilots license without flight experience? You don't. Again, its hard to see how you could make such an error unless the total amount of research you have put into this is zero. 9/11 wasn't the product of some man in a cave on dialysis. THAT'S the most ridiculous thing I've heard.Yes, and you know where you heard that? A conspiracy website. The 9/11 commission report, which you've never bothered to read, describes Khalid Sheik Mohammed as "the principal architect of the 9/11 attacks". And he probably arranged most of it from Pakistan not Afghanistan. Even if he had been in Afghanistan, why would be have been in a cave? Al Queda was welcomed by the Taliban, they had permanent bases there. Given the quality of your sources, surely by now you can see the point of reading source materials rather than letting conspiracy websites tell you both sides of the story. Some of you people really need to start exercising some critical thinking.Is that supposed to be a joke? We're not the ones who think hijackers are victims and peddling the tired old "osama in a cave" story.

[madcrappie]

Well, I am not stupid enough to believe that people with NO flight experience were able to crash four planes into 75% of thier targets, when literally dozens of professional pilots have stated on record that it would be nearly impossible for someone with even YEARS of flight experience to pull of such a stunt.

Some of you people really need to start exercising some critical thinking.

9/11 wasn't the product of some man in a cave on dialysis. THAT'S the most ridiculous thing I've heard.
I never have said that it was just osama working alone with his brainwashed terrorists.... and Ive said since 2001 that it was more than just that......

but to say that all those terrorists are still alive is absurd......

and I just love how you say you are a critical thinker, and like the person before me said, and Ive been saying for MONTHS is that you are the least critical thinker here. you reiterate everything you read on conspiracy sites. its absurd really. I could make up the most incredible story and have it printed on those alternative news sites, and you would believe it, just because you dont see it printed or aired on mainstream news. its funny. critical thinker, my ass.

[stormyy]

Ok...I didn't read this whole thread, but I have a few things to contribute. Please forgive me if these things have already been addressed.

~The hijackers were trained at flight schools about 20 minutes away from my house. In Scottsdale Az. To say they had no flight experience is just wrong. They might not have been badass top-gun fighter pilots, but they did know their way around an airplane control panel.
~The film "Short Changed" is not the pinnacle of information some people make it out to be. There are some interesting points, but the filmmakers were so hell-bent on proving their point that they made asses of themselves.
~Chupacabras are real. Madcrappie you are an asshole.

I don't think that the towers were brought down by a couple of airplanes, I think there is some validity in the demolition theory. I also think that there are too many things that none of us "civillians" will ever know, therefore arguing points that cannot be proven is kind of retarded.


On a side note, Pepik, I am suprised that you have actually read the 9-11 comission report...that is some dull ass reading. Lots of people disregard all of the reports the govt has released, but if they are read carefully, there is a lot of suprising fucked-up shit! Have you ever read anything the Project for the New American Century has published? That shit is scarier than anything the Loose Change guys can come up with.

[Angel_Headed_Hipster]

Im not saying the Hijackers are alive, I am saying their identities were stolen, even Robert Mueller of the FBI himself has said we don't really know who those hijackers were because they have much reason to believe most of the identities were merely stolen identities. And why hasn't BBC retracted the story? They interviewed a man who said that is my picture on the TV and i didnt do that.

[Pepik]

Yes some of them may have used false names. That doesn't make them still alive.Real 911 researchers know that after the Moussoui Trial they released the REAL flight manifests which do have the hijackers names on themSo you would agree that jim fetzer, who started scholars for 9.11 truth, is pretty stupid for thinking the passengers weren't on the manifests?

[SourceoftheForce]

I dropped the towers like two double dipped hits, only problem was the dose gave me the shiites, sunnis and such to serve as the paper to wipe off the devil's touch. I raised the buzz with elevation of fuzz and peered into the looking glass once staring back at me was a smiling faced wizard that rolled the constitution into blunts. And behold coming up fast was a strange scene not meant to last like how the vapor off gas will pass in the wind, it was a herd of tripping cattle advocating premeditated sin. So being the good wizard I am I escorted the class to the blackest of mass and let the trip begin. I am the anti-acid I am in deep penetration even while flaccid, I am your naievete focused like a countless swarm of locust you shall eat what I say to consume, smell the roses my silly children for your stupidity is in full bloom.

[Angel_Headed_Hipster]

The people who hold the identities that were stolen ARE alive, where as the hijackers who used their identities aren't. and Yes I do think Fetzer is stupid for thinking that.

[Angel_Headed_Hipster]

Source...thats tight bro.

[Pepik]

The people who hold the identities that were stolen ARE alive... which, if were true, means exactly nothing. Who cares?

[Angel_Headed_Hipster]

It would mean people shouldn't go around saying "19 hijackers did it from saudi arabi" when we know those are just stolen identities and we have absolutely NO IDEA who actually hijacked those flights.

[Pepik]

Well, Atta was from Egypt, so nobody is saying that 19 hijackers did it from Saudi Arabia. And saying we "have absolutely no idea" who did it is totally dishonest and a ridiculous exaggeration, we have a very good idea of who most of them were, in some cases we can be pretty much certain.

Why not cut to the case - which hijacker are you claiming is still alive?

[goin_bonkers]

this may sound like a stupid question, but i think it's important to ask where peopel are getting their information. just for kicks, is anyone interested in posting their sources?

[Free Mason]

See the truth here.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30302

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21764

[Angel_Headed_Hipster]

Well we live in a world where it's hard to tell what REALLY is the truth, the mainstream media sure isn't, so then you go out and look for other sources, a lot of them are credible and a lot of them aren't the truth either...even the well meaning ones make mistakes, but there is mainstream information that supplies the original questions which, from various sources, try to answer why, what sources would you like information for? Make a list and i'll hit you up with some sources that I personally think are legitimate at trying to uncover those questions, while a lot of people on this site will try to give you websites to counter it, whether one is true or not is a matter or opinion in the end.