i don't believe in God

[iscreamchocolate]

I don't believe in God (i'm an atheist) and I don't believe in a heaven or hell or the devil. I don't believe in a greater power greater then yourself... I wasn't there back in time when all that stuff all of a sudden appeared when some god was born.. I wasn't there and I don't believe in a bunch of rumors that God is real and stuff. All throughout history people spoke of god's/goddesses such as: Hurculeas (however you spell his name), zues, Aphrodite and so on and so on. I mean their is no real evidence that God even existed... A man made bible people believe in and believe that tells everything. I don't believe in a god becaudse it's hard to believe in a so-called "god" making the earth and making everyone in it. Their must be some other way everything was created and I kind of believe that Science created everything in some way. I think people make up a God in their minds and just decide to dump all their sad thoughts and everything on God because their is nobody else to blame for them and they hope that by praying to God he'll help them... Ok if people say worship the "devil" then I guess all their prayers get answered by the devil because they believe in the devil. I wasn't their in the past so I don't know what happened... If I was actually there and experianced "god's" great power then I would believe in him but I've never seen a God and I have never seen any of his powers and seen him use them. So therefore I don't believe in him.

[POPthree13]

I certainly can't fault you for not beleiving in God, and I am certainly no fan of organized religion, but maybe you do see God at work everyday. Maybe you ARE God and the simple fact that you are able to think, reason, write and breathe is a testament to its (and your) power.

[iscreamchocolate]

but how can i believe i'm God.. when i don't believe in a god... it doesn't add up in my head.. because to me their is no such thing.. so how can i believe in something that to me doesn't exist... it's like believing in something you have never heard of or saw before.. so in your mind it's a blank so in my mind their is a blank

[POPthree13]

it's like believing in something you have never heard of or saw before.. so in your mind it's a blank so in my mind their is a blank
I can't diagree with you at all. But, you have heard of God.. or we wouldn't be discussing it. No you haven't seen God... but have you seen gravity? Have you seen atoms? Do you beleive in them? Now I do realize that there is 'evidence' of these phenomena, but what is gravity? No one really knows... all we know is that there is this force that holds things together and we labeled it gravity.
Well we know there is a life force on this planet that reproduces, thinks, evolves, grows, and doesn't play by the rules that inert matter plays by. I just label this force God. The word itself is overly weighted I think, but put whatever word on it you want... life on earth is a miraculous web. When veiwed from afar we are one big organism feeding off itself and the sun. That's all I mean when I say God. Not a creator, not a father-figure, not a old man on a throne. Just the force that is behind life, because there is a force behind life... that you can see. That you can test.

PS: Do you beleive in UFO's? Do you beleive in ghosts? Do you beleive in ESP? All of these, I suggest, point to the possibility of God.

[Iacchus]

What do you believe in then? Or, is everything pretty much spelled out in terms of matter-of-fact to you? If, by your own admission however, you are a creature of belief, then that opens up the door of possibility that there is a God. Why? Because that tells us that man is religious by nature.

[Megan]

How can you put faith in science and not in the idea that God does exist...And how can you say well i wasnt here so i dont believe it...We werent here during the American Revolution but we know it happened. It is a fact that a Jesus walked on the earth...Furthermore...w/o the idea of Heaven what is the point of living. Everyone longs for somethin else...longs to know what awaits us. I believe in God. I am Saved. I also believe that with every lil seed planted god works. I dont undermind anyone for there on beliefs...and i think it is great that u can share your opinions...But have you ever thought "What if i am wrong???"

[PhanPhavorite]

I don't believe in organized religon, or God persay. But I do believe that there is some sort of force or power or plane of existance that is above us. To believe that God did not create everything is very understandable, but to believe that all of this around you happened because of science is obserd. Evolution has been proved to a certain extent and carbon dating has proved the earth is older then the Bible says. But if you think of the probability of evolution to form man and for the Earth to be in exactly the right spot so gravity does not send us off in to space or crush our bones, I honestly don't know how you could say that is coincidence or good timing. Science can't explain everything.
Now I guess I can say I don't believe in God, but I believe there is something like God on a different plane of existance. I have some grievences sure: Why are we here?; What is the purpose for us? and so on.
I can't change your mind but at least listen to this.

If there turns out to be a God, the people who believe go to heaven.
If there isn't a God, then no loss.

[Megan]

It is not that easy. Believing doesnt ensure heaven. You must accept the lord as your savior.

[FreeWillFreeLove]

If you were to believe in reincarnation, in soul-energy moving from one state of being to another, evolving as a mind-force just as species evolve as physical manifestations....then you may realise that along the way, there has to be a few older souls, perhaps a certain "Oldest Soul"?

That's what God would be, as the oldest soul it would be the wisest, and have more of a say, so to speak, as to the role and fate of the univerese.

Not the overall, after all he would look upon the youngers as friends and/or children, and thus the Universe!

A wonderful gift, for all sentient entities to be and exist within and to ultimately aid in the manifestation thereof.

No, God ain't a dude with a white beard, but I reckon if the Universe wanted/needed certain people - or representations around - they'd have them.

Just a thought

[PhanPhavorite]

It is not that easy. Believing doesnt ensure heaven. You must accept the lord as your savior.Says who? I've never seen this set in stone by God. The Bible we know is not 100% accurate. So where are you getting this info? Organized religon?

[grendel 44]

Phan (for short) I like what you are saying. I am pretty old compared the others in this thread, but I feel the way you do. My parents were athiests but my father used to discuss religion with my brother and I and I have always been interested in religion and spirituality.

Christianity just does not make sense and is not logical, sorry Megan, but there is too much evidence against your Christ being divine. You and others have been brainwashed by the church. You need to look into the history, ALL OF IT, to be able to determine that a person was a son of a god.

H.G. Wells said that religion is ancestor worship, in prehistorical tribes when the leader died they were afraid he would come back and punish them for doing things that he had made taboo. The leader was always the strongest fighter and hunter in the tribe, so his people were afraid of him. Christianity has this vision of an all powerful father who punishes those who ignore the taboos. Out of this came Juadism with it's war god who protected his chosen people and punished them for going astray.

I could go on all day. There may be a greater power, but if there is it seems as if it is a spoiled child who does not look after it's toys.

If Jesus had been killed twenty years ago, Catholic school children would be wearing little electric chairs around their necks instead of crosses.
Lenny Bruce

[mikopanic]

I think whatever you believe in is good for you at the time, never have fear.

[Razorofoccam]

grendel 44

Occam is also a 'late starter'
Dont worry my friend...

If we are not 10. We are late starters.
THAT is the potential of human beings.

We are what we are because of the FUCKED system that teaches us.
[late starters]
95% of all occam knows he got for himself.
Society wishes NONE to know too much.

This is the system we live in.

Occam

Are you a grendel from the SF novel ?

[Kharakov]

Christianity just does not make sense and is not logical, sorry Megan, but there is too much evidence against your Christ being divine. You and others have been brainwashed by the church.So you argue against your own divine ancestry? Interesting.

Christianity has this vision of an all powerful father who punishes those who ignore the taboos. Out of this came Juadism with it's war god who protected his chosen people and punished them for going astray. Yep, you have great understanding of God and the reasons that God causes war.

[louray]

How can you put faith in science and not in the idea that God does exist...And how can you say well i wasnt here so i dont believe it...We werent here during the American Revolution but we know it happened. It is a fact that a Jesus walked on the earth...Furthermore...w/o the idea of Heaven what is the point of living. Everyone longs for somethin else...longs to know what awaits us. I believe in God. I am Saved. I also believe that with every lil seed planted god works. I dont undermind anyone for there on beliefs...and i think it is great that u can share your opinions...But have you ever thought "What if i am wrong???"
listen to this.....she knows what she is talking bout.....i agree fully

[FreakyJoeMan]

Aww, shit and shucks, people. Since when did existence have to have a point? And since when did existence not havin a point become a bad thing? I am filled with elation to know that we don't have a purpose, as it frees me to do whatever the hell I want! You know there is a god, I know that there isn't. I just don't happen to put complete faith in a book written thousands of years ago. An that goes fer all you religios peoples out there. I know what I experiance.

[lakeoffire]

I don't believe in God (i'm an atheist) and I don't believe in a heaven or hell or the devil. I don't believe in a greater power greater then yourself... I wasn't there back in time when all that stuff all of a sudden appeared when some god was born.. I wasn't there and I don't believe in a bunch of rumors that God is real and stuff. All throughout history people spoke of god's/goddesses such as: Hurculeas (however you spell his name), zues, Aphrodite and so on and so on. I mean their is no real evidence that God even existed... A man made bible people believe in and believe that tells everything. I don't believe in a god becaudse it's hard to believe in a so-called "god" making the earth and making everyone in it. Their must be some other way everything was created and I kind of believe that Science created everything in some way. I think people make up a God in their minds and just decide to dump all their sad thoughts and everything on God because their is nobody else to blame for them and they hope that by praying to God he'll help them... Ok if people say worship the "devil" then I guess all their prayers get answered by the devil because they believe in the devil. I wasn't their in the past so I don't know what happened... If I was actually there and experianced "god's" great power then I would believe in him but I've never seen a God and I have never seen any of his powers and seen him use them. So therefore I don't believe in him.
I completley agree

[green_thumb]

I'm an atheist too. I haven't found a religion that appeals to me.

[POPthree13]

I haven't found a religion that appeals to me either... but that doesn't make me an atheist. An atheist is someone who is CONVINCED there is no higher power. In my opinion this takes just as much (if not more) faith than saying that the Christian image of God is truth or the Islamic vision of God is truth.


I know only that we do not know. I am CONVINCED of that. Anyone who comes along and tells me THEY know (atheist or theist) is only showing how little they understand about how little they know.

Go with the flow... that much we know. Man has evolved as a reasoning, information gathering, questioning stack of inanimate dust rolled into a self-examining thing. If you don't see any magic in that then I feel sorry for you. Life is magic. Our view of reality is an illusion. Around it all is TRUTH, but we are far from prepared to understand it. So claim you KNOW if you wish... but it proves only how confused you must be.

[Megan]

I am not confused at all. And the reason you are is because you dunno God. God created everything and i have no doubt in my mind. God knows all and loves all.

[POPthree13]

Uh huh... I was where you are when I was your age. I think no less of you. But to claim you knwo is to reveal your ignorance. No insult intented... most teenagers feel they know everything! LOL

[POPthree13]

PS: Who said I was confused?

[FreakyJoeMan]

"No insult intented... most teenagers feel they know everything! LOL"

As do most adults...

[Varuna]

There is a Hindu belief that God is, among other things, "Satchitananda." God is Being (sat), Consciousness (chit) and Bliss (ananda). There is a Western belief that God is, among other things, Creativity, Wisdom, and Love.

These are actually the same belief if you think about it long enough.

Being, Consciousness, Bliss . . . Creativity, Wisdom, and Love, I am sure we can agree that these exist.

My point is, even if you don't, won't or can't believe in God, you have to recognize that the attributes, or, the patterns of reality attributed to God, actually do exist. If you can't do this, then you have to believe that you yourself must be absolutely uncreative, absolutely unwise and absolutely unloved, you have to deny your own bliss, your own consciousness, your own being. This may be the most absurd idea ever.

So, let's return to Being, Consciousness, Bliss . . . Creativity, Wisdom, and Love, I am sure we can agree that these exist.

Of course, the big picture, how all of this fits together, this is the real mystery. Figure this one out, and put it into words that anyone can understand, and then every year, for the next few millennia, people around the world might celebrate your birthday.

Peace and Love

[Silverstar]

Hi Varuna!


I'm impressed by your reasoning so allow me to respond :) .
Everybody has to admit that "being", "consciousness", ... do exist. But my question is: do these concepts (and their manifestations in life) have to be linked to (a/certain) god(s)?
I'll give an example:
"Being" can be a pure biological/physiological issue. It's about the body and it's inner structure and this influences the way we behave (to keep the explanation short...). Then people automatically begin to wonder why we're here and maybe what the purpose of "being" is. They begin to philosophize and this is possible without connecting god to the whole matter.
Not only biology and philosophy but also psychology, neurobiology, ... try to find answers (maybe not always directly) to subjects as "love", "wisdom", etc. And every science will define these concepts slightly different.
I hope you understand what I'm asking because I find it difficult to talk about this in English and maybe my way of expressing myself isn't that intelligible... :& (I'm working on it!)

Lots of Love! ;)

[dna]

Uh huh... I was where you are when I was your age. I think no less of you. But to claim you knwo is to reveal your ignorance. No insult intented... most teenagers feel they know everything! LOL
:H Hey,leave her alone! She's right!
I wish I had remembered that before getting pregnant without a husband at
her age!!!
Let her be,after years of living the secular life,I got sick of it!
I praise God he saved me,amen.

[dna]

I am not confused at all. And the reason you are is because you dunno God. God created everything and i have no doubt in my mind. God knows all and loves all.
:) I hope you always stay very strong in God and firm in your faith.
I got out of these worldly churches,and it's been God,Jesus,Holy Spirit & the
holy word and me ever since!
If your heart seeks him,you will find him. Stay strong!
I am proud of you.

[dna]

[QUOTE=Silverstar]Hi Varuna!


I'm impressed by your reasoning so allow me to respond :) .
Everybody has to admit that "being", "consciousness", ... do exist. But my question is: do these concepts (and their manifestations in life) have to be linked to (a/certain) god(s)?

:) No offense,but do you have a real job?

[Peace]

I don't believe in God (i'm an atheist) and I don't believe in a heaven or hell or the devil. I don't believe in a greater power greater then yourself... I wasn't there back in time when all that stuff all of a sudden appeared when some god was born.. I wasn't there and I don't believe in a bunch of rumors that God is real and stuff. All throughout history people spoke of god's/goddesses such as: Hurculeas (however you spell his name), zues, Aphrodite and so on and so on. I mean their is no real evidence that God even existed... A man made bible people believe in and believe that tells everything. I don't believe in a god becaudse it's hard to believe in a so-called "god" making the earth and making everyone in it. Their must be some other way everything was created and I kind of believe that Science created everything in some way. I think people make up a God in their minds and just decide to dump all their sad thoughts and everything on God because their is nobody else to blame for them and they hope that by praying to God he'll help them... Ok if people say worship the "devil" then I guess all their prayers get answered by the devil because they believe in the devil. I wasn't their in the past so I don't know what happened... If I was actually there and experianced "god's" great power then I would believe in him but I've never seen a God and I have never seen any of his powers and seen him use them. So therefore I don't believe in him.
I can help turn your faith around. For I, known as Peace at the Hip Forums, am God. Yes, that is correct. You are actually talking to God himself. And to be generous I will grant you three wishes. As long as these wishes could be done by Santa Clause (my little elf :))

For I am God and I am Love,
Best Regards My Child.

[Silverstar]

[QUOTE=Silverstar]

:) No offense,but do you have a real job?
Hi dna! :)
No, I don't have a job (except during my holidays :( because I need money). I'm a student with a lot of questions inside my head. That's why I'm asking them. Feel free to throw some arguments towards me if you think that concepts like "love" etc. are (or aren't) attributed to god. That's what this forum is for :) !

Love!

[Megan]

DNA...Thank you for your support. So many ppl today have no faith. THat is the problem. I know because i had faith in the lord and then he saved me. Faith has to come first. YOu must be willing to believe. Ppl may say i am ignorant but i would rather be known as ignorant than be lost.

[scamp chuckles]

I have to agree with you on the reason for not beliveing in a god. I don't belive in a god myself. I think that religion is good to some extent though. A way a society is run is based off of religious ethics. I think that man is a coward (if this makes any sense right here). He dreamed up God as someone to look up to, someone to set rules for humans to live by. He cannot live without his faith. I'd probably be the same way if I was an ordinaty person. I guess what my point is that organized religion forms civilization.

[~MorningManiacMusic~]

She believes in mtv I bet...

[dna]

DNA...Thank you for your support. So many ppl today have no faith. THat is the problem. I know because i had faith in the lord and then he saved me. Faith has to come first. YOu must be willing to believe. Ppl may say i am ignorant but i would rather be known as ignorant than be lost.:) You are sooooo welcome! Let me also say that I am very
honored to know you,and glad to tell my christian friends
about you! You are very wise,and don't listen to any of the
government monkey's who have no right to judge christians,
and For sure not God himself.
Thats what happened to me too. First you must have faith,
even a little will help you. faith first,then you see the reality
of God greater in your life. Then you become an addict!
"Addicted to Jesus" You just cannot help it,and no church can
do it for you,it's about faith!
May I say,you are very intelligent,actually wise is a better word?!

[dna]

I Don't Think There Is A God. Its Just A Story Rulers Came Up With To Control There People, And Oppress Them. It's Bullshit. The Only Savior We Have Is Our Earth, Which People Destroy More, And More Every Day.
Hey,Dopesick,you cannot let the lies of this world make you
conform.it was the ones who twisted the word of God who
killed all the true christians. Try using the Bible and study
history at the same time.
A soul is a terrible thing to waste,especially a young one.

[dna]

She believes in mtv I bet...
:sunglasse No MTV for me!
I cannot tolerate the stuff. It is sooooo nasty.
The women they show on there make the little boys crack
up laughing,especially those that jiggle their boobs and rears
and have all those goofy looks on their faces.
If you ever want to see little boys laugh really hard,show them
a bimbo trying to dance. Men laugh at them too,but usually keep
it between themselves. I have alot of brothers,can you tell?

[dna]

Hi dna! :)
No, I don't have a job (except during my holidays :( because I need money). I'm a student with a lot of questions inside my head. That's why I'm asking them. Feel free to throw some arguments towards me if you think that concepts like "love" etc. are (or aren't) attributed to god. That's what this forum is for :) !

Love!salvation and being saved come from God,and The Lord
Jesus Christ,and I believe it is totally personal.
I don't want to argue with you,but I would like it if you would
at least think longer about God,and look into it deeper.
No one can save you,and you must be called by God I believe.

[dna]

I can help turn your faith around. For I, known as Peace at the Hip Forums, am God. Yes, that is correct. You are actually talking to God himself. And to be generous I will grant you three wishes. As long as these wishes could be done by Santa Clause (my little elf :))

For I am God and I am Love,
Best Regards My Child.
:rolleyes: Hey,I know some say youre cute,some say youre not,
running down the street with a snickers in your sock!
You know what? It's not my fault that some so called
christians have taught their children all those pagan
stories that are false! You have someone named-
Constantine to thank for that when he mixed paganism
with christianity.

[Silverstar]

I don't want to argue with you,but I would like it if you would
at least think longer about God,and look into it deeper.
No one can save you,and you must be called by God I believe.
Hi dna!
I wasn't talking about arguing, but discussing (it's a huge difference). And I ask myself why you think I haven't thought (enough) about god... I've never told you (or anybody else here) what my personal vision is. Untill now, I've only been asking questions.
I must confess I have it very difficult with the idea that there's a god and I also have problems with religions (but I think you already knew that ;)) . That's a conclusion after a lot of thinking, reading, discussing and looking inside me. I'm willing to listen to all of you (I have an open mind) but 'till now, there haven't been good arguments to change my mind... And no, I don't have the intention to persuade you to think the same as me (you're free to think what you like :)!) I only want to tell you my personal opinion.

Love!

[iscreamchocolate]

I completley agree
awww thanks for agreeing with me... I didn;t know this thread was still up or I would have argued with the rest of you... awww darn now I'm waaay behind...

[LuMpYtRiChOmEy]

I strongly urge anyone who's lookin for a religeon to stop immediatly and start lookin for GOD. --That's the TRUTH we should all be seekin, -not a religeon. -IMRO -Religeon just takes the seeker farther from their objective and serves as a stumblin stone on the way to God instead of the "Highway to Heavin". -The "highway" that most religeons offer usually lead to the bank! --God is in Your Heart! ~~^^Peace>LT>**

[iscreamchocolate]

i don't believe in God at all and believing in God basically is a religion...

[Razorofoccam]

i don't believe in God at all and believing in God basically is a religion...
Yummy Iscreamchocolate.. [dont scream about chocolate, melt]

So...Occam places belief in he gods of religion on par with the 'cat and the hat' and 'winnie the pooh'
The Bible, the Koran and all other religious justification sits on the shelf next to the 'house at pooh corner.'
Those texts ARE THE VALIDATION FOR WESTERN RELIGION.

No religious person has EVER produced anything else to occam,
to support his beliefs.
Or, it seems , to anyone else.

YET.

Occam believes that reality is 'directed'
Not, by any god of religion.

But by something.
Something way beyond the silly tales of religion.
Heaven and Hell are human stories to control humans.
Not anything related to a possible god..

Yes..
A 'possible' god.
There is evidence for such...
Evidence based in reality.

Occam holds this evidence as fact.
It is not conclusive.
But it EXISTS.

Occam

[Spiritforces]

Just a great post Occam (or it's Razor)

[TheMistress]

Here is what I think god is (please understand that this is only my opinion and I don't mean to offend anyone):

The whole idea of god is used as a means of :
1.) control.
2.) and as an answer to questions for which we have not yet found the answer for.

The first being control, I say this because god is used among society as a representation of "the long arm of the law". At a young age we are taught not to do things that are immoral ( based on our own religion) and that acts against god will be punished, either now or latter when we die. This serves as a method to deter people from total anarchy. I'm not trying to say that the idea of god is a bad thing, but I do think that we have learn less primitive ways of instilling morals and values into our children and a more concrete way of interpreting them. Instead of saying that something is against god and that is why we should never do it, we should teach the consequences in the real NOW world, and not this abstract idea.

Secondly, God is used in the same way now, that greek methology was used by the ancient greeks. They fabricated elaberate stories of gods and goddesses to explain the unexplainable. And to comfort people about death.

Rememeber Occam's Razor??? It states that the most simple answer is probably the right answer......just something to think about....which is the most simple/reasonable answer to you? For me its that god does not exist. I believe that I am my own god. I am responsible for my own good and evil. If you think this way too, Anton Zander LaVey has some good ideas about the subject just look him up on google. *******( Just so there are no suprises......he was the leader of the Satanic church and his ideas reflect that lifestyle and somethings are harsh, but like any philosopher you don't have to agree with everything they say in order to respect some of thier ideas. )

[POPthree13]

'Why' is something we will never have an answer for. We do our best at figuring out 'how' but why is completely hypothetical. Why anything? Two answers:
1) There is meaning... which can be followed to:'there is ultimate meaning'
2) There is no meaning... which makes me woder why chaos isn't rampant everyhwere.

To me God is meaning. Whatever that is. Doesn't have to be a thing or a personified diety. Just a tendency, a purpose. We don't know what that is, but we follow it just the same. Call it instinct, call it propensity. Life on earth goes on... life elsewhere int he universe does too. It may have never been created.. it may have gone on forever. But why?

The fear of God has been misused often to control, to comfort, to give meaning. This is true...

[openmind]

if you read the ancient scripures from what the bible was baased it said that the giants came down from the stars and created man as his servant
this has a little more merit and im to tired as its late to elaborate unless some one is interested

[Varuna]

Hi Varuna!

Hi!


I'm impressed by your reasoning

Thanks, I am always happy to know that this stuff makes sense to someone, that I am not just barking into the wind.

so allow me to respond http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif .

Everybody has to admit that "being", "consciousness", ... do exist. But my question is: do these concepts (and their manifestations in life) have to be linked to (a/certain) god(s)?

No, of course not. As far as concepts are concerned, no one has to arrive at any specific conclusion. But . . .

I'll give an example:
"Being" can be a pure biological/physiological issue. It's about the body and it's inner structure and this influences the way we behave (to keep the explanation short...). Then people automatically begin to wonder why we're here and maybe what the purpose of "being" is. They begin to philosophize and this is possible without connecting god to the whole matter.

Collectively speaking, people have been thinking about these "concepts" (I like to think of them as patterns of reality) for thousands of years. And, the more you or I, as individuals, think about things like love, compassion, consciousness, creativity, wisdom, etc. the more their essential nature suggests that there is far more mystery to all of this than we are usually aware. One of the really big mysteries is the realization that has occurred to every genuine mystic in every tradition regardless of where or when they lived, the realization that there is some kind of unexplainable unity to all of this.

Not only biology and philosophy but also psychology, neurobiology, ... try to find answers (maybe not always directly) to subjects as "love", "wisdom", etc. And every science will define these concepts slightly different.

Yes, but no explanation or definition or any other intellectual model of the thing is the thing itself. As a Zen Master once put it, to try to know reality through concepts and thoughts and words alone is like a mosquito trying to bite an iron bar. The fact is, the thing described does exist, even if a thousand different people describe it in a thousand different ways.

I hope you understand what I'm asking because I find it difficult to talk about this in English and maybe my way of expressing myself isn't that intelligible... http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/embarassed.gif (I'm working on it!)

Lots of Love! http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gifYou know what? This is tricky stuff. It is difficult to talk about this in any language and I often wonder if maybe my way of expressing myself isn't that intelligible . . . but, just like you, I am also working on it.

Lots of love to you too!

http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif No offense,but do you have a real job?No offense taken and yes, I do have a real job. I work in a library. My job involves looking up books on the computer. An untangible benefit of my job is that I have a fair amount of time where I can't leave my desk but I don't have anything to do. So I contribute to these forums. More often than not I am just having fun. But I have been thinking I want to write a book and I find that this kind of dialog, the feedback, helps me to clarify my ideas.

Thanks for the feedback.

[MusicMan19]

Varuna, basically all your saying is that existence proves existence. Because we exist in our present physical form, because time exists, because we have emotion, a god must exist. This is an absurd concept. If you'd like to ellaborate this idea, I'd like to read it.

"2:There is no meaning, which makes me wonder why chaos isn't rampant everywhere. God is meaning". Well, if you're well versed in history you'll realize that chaos was rampant before organized religion came to be (and even very much of the time after religion came to be,... failed). This is the reason why religion was created in it's current form. Religion is both vice and muse to the simple man. In the words of Karl Marx, "Religion is the opiate of the masses.".

The arguments I've seen here are pure fallacy. I'm not really sure how anyone, especially someone of 30, 40 years old can be this uneducated and this confused on the idea of Christianity.

[Mr_Soul]

Whenever I tell people I'm a staunch atheist, they automatically assume it's because of my scientific background; that I don't believe in a god because there's no proof of its existence. But that is a straw man and far from the truth, which is that I believe in many things for which there is no proof. I clearly acknowledge my belief in the non-existence of a god is just that: a belief--nothing more, nothing less. In fact, there was indeed a time when I believed in a god, until the age of seven. It was aat that age when I decide to the question of my beliefs, which ultimately led me to the conclusions below after years of refinement.

However, I do have reasons for not believing in a god, and, more strongly, I believe there is strong argument to not believe in the relevance of god's existence (even if god itself existed). In other words, I have chosen to deny the existence of a god, which is the definition of atheism, since I find god to be irrelevant.

Below I outline the objections I have against the concept of a god (a concept I believe that was created by man, as theorised by Nietzsche and others). I'm loosely defining the notion of a god to be an extremely powerful being who may or may not be responsible for the creation of the universe and who supposedly has the power and the ability to judge sentient beings such as humans. I also assume god is external from its creations (though this is not necessary except for cogency). In all these objection arguments, I begin by assuming that a god does exist, but I explain why I don't acknowledge its power, and consequently my belief in the irrelevance of its existence.

There's an old adage: power corrupts. It follows that absolute power corrupts absolutely. Of course, a god's power might not be absolute, but nonetheless how do we know a god is not a despot? In fact, almost every religion portrays god as despotic: "Do this, and you will face god's wrath." "Pledge your allegiance, plead forgiveness, and you will be saved." It's strange to me that a powerful being would want and need such statements from its creations and even resort to threats to make its creations comply. It is a sign that all the power has gone to its head and that we, god's creations, are no better than slaves. God is on a massive power trip because it has created a universe where the creatures have flaws in them, and then god delights in "punishing" these creatures for falling prey to these flaws and not begging for forgiveness.
Omnipotent or not, any god that chooses to "rule" over entities it has created reeks of despotism. I view such a god as no better than Hitler. I would never believe that such a despot is necessary or even worthwhile for my existence.

Following on through with the power corrupts objection, what gives god the authority (except for physical strength) to judge what is right and wrong for its creations? Who is god to say actions a, b, and c are wrong and should be punished and actions x, y, and z are good and should be rewarded?
Being a firm believer in relative ethics, I believe I know best for myself what is right or wrong, as long as I am consistent. My general philosophy is the conjunction of these two axioms: don't do anything to others you'd not want done to you, and do only things to others you want done to you. As long as I adhere to this philosophy I think I am the ultimate arbiter of my actions (I often say I am my own god). Even though a stronger force could "punish" me for doing something it doesn't like, there is no moral, ethical, or logical grounds for doing so.

So at this point, not only do I reject the idea of a god who is more powerful than me and therefore demands my obedience, but I also think that such a power (including my creation) does not guarantee it any superiority over me on a ethical level.

Believing that someone other than you can tell what is right or wrong for you encourages conformity and lack of responsibility for your own actions. Consider the concept of "forgiveness for one's sins", wherein every wrong is wiped out and you start with a clean slate the moment you accept/believe in some arbitrary god. How can this encourage personal responsibility for one's actions? How can this encourage thinking for oneself, figuring out the hard way whether something is right or wrong, instead of just doing what is spoon-fed?

Let's assume that god is indeed not despotic. If this were the case, such a god would at the very least be apathetic, allowing all the atrocities in the world to occur while not doing a thing to stop it (unless god gets a perverse pleasure from watching humans suffer, in which case such a god would be cruel). This in and of itself isn't a bad thing, but it would illustrate that the relevance of a god's existence to our lives is close to zero and there's no reason to believe in it.

Even though our knowledge is incredibly miniscule and what we don't know is infinite, science has shown something conclusive: at the quantum level, the universe is non-deterministic/random. This is a conclusion that arises not from quantum theory, but from quantum fact, i.e., what we observe regarding the behaviour of quantum particles. In other words, even if a god exists, that god has created a universe where it has no deterministic control over. Einstein was one of the people who objected to this idea of a non-deterministic universe, claiming god does not play dice, even though he was one of the people who was responsible for a lot of the ideas that lead to this conclusion. But in the end, Einstein was wrong and god does play dice.

Assuming a god existed, it really is very anthropocentric and a show of hubris to think that an all-powerful god created man so man could worship and praise god. In fact, this really points to a human insecurity. Humanity's existence may well be pointless and random, with bacteria being god's chosen organisms of interest, but most humans wouldn't be comfortable with that.

The above point, turned around, leads to the question in general: if there is an all-powerful god, why would such a god need to create anything else? Amusement? Boredom? Insecurity? This would reflect a strange psyche on the part of god.

Finally, even though this is loosely connected to the notion of the existence of a god, I am also against religion in general, particularly organised religion. In many ways, science is as much a religion to me as any other, but the one fundamental difference is that I constantly question my beliefs and I try extremely hard to prove myself wrong (or ask others to do it for me) in a true Popperian spirit. Few religions permit this, and fewer would permit speaking against it and overturning it on its head.

Another reason I don't think much of religion and god is because some of the greatest atrocities in humanity's history have been committed in the name of religion and god. Religion has the same sort of problems I outline above: it encourages despotism, conformity, acts of barbaric cruelty, laziness, and lack of personal responsibility. Sure, religion and a belief in god serves some positive purpose at times (such as giving hope amidst utter despair), but overall I think the negative weighs in more than the positive. I believe each person has their own god and religion within themselves and it would behoove us all to find it through some serious introspection.

At a more epistemological level, I think all existence is random and inherently meaningless and purposeless (so even if god existed, god has created our universe to be this and is probably just as surprised as us that something like humans sprung up). I think humans tend to lend purpose to their lives by imbibing it with some artificial meaning: in terms of asking and answering questions (science and philosphy) and creative endeavours (arts), through love and relationships, and through god and religion. This in and of itself isn't bad, but given the objections I've stated above as to what a belief in god and following a religion can cause and has caused, I see reasons against being a theist and thus I've chosen to be an atheist.

[StonerBill]

dude your the first person ive ever seen whos had such accurately similar views as me, and be able to express them in such a clear manner. unlike some poeple *cough*starter of the thread*cough*

anyway i ddint read the whoel thing i read hte first and now last pages. i concur with practically everyhting youve said soul, though my atheism is based more on my understanding on the root of religion than my opposition to any motive factors. i also beleive in the random, meaninless engine of the universe and enjoy to question these concepts regularly.

the main root of my undestanding comes form thigns such as this. these sort of words half sicken me from the way poeple can think these thigns and not self reflect.

w/o the idea of Heaven what is the point of living said by some megan girl on teh first page.

The afterlife, as i see it, is the soul purpose of religion. all religions, and all followings of religions all come down to this no matter waht (though tehre are individuals who do not follow this, they are in teh extreem minority, and are usually lying).
People do not want to die. people do not want to think life is the limit. and so they beleive in god and in religion and that way, life doesnt seem to depressing with its shortlivedness. People want to beleive, and since there are so many poeple who do, and since its so easy to put the weight of the world on a 'god' its the most popular trend in teh world. its normal. its human. but it still makes me angry and frustrated and it has even got me feeling phsycially sick and downridden.
People follow religions so they will have a good afterlife. in the end theyre only wasting waht little life they really have.

im sure you dont feel as passionately, well i wouldnt expect it, but yeah thats how i feel.


cheers to pure atheism!

[themnax]

well i don't believe there HAS TO NOT be one, or zillions of them if it or they feel like existing, but i certainly don't believe it/they were on the side of every fortuante dice roll in recorded history, or that the world we live in would be very much like the way that it is if one or more gods and goddessess were actualy running it instead of leaving it up to us to do so.

the important thing i think is that it IS up to us to do so
and that means it is up to us to connect the dots and deal
with the collective responsibility of the incentives our
individual priorities are collectively creating

whatever god or gods there are or might be
they haven't chainged our diapers for us
and i don't see any reason to expect them to start doing so

but i do see plenty of reason to suggest that it or they,
really would like us to start growing up and doing so
ourselves.

and to me that means living in closer and more harmonious
balance with the other life forms and energy with which we
shaire our planet.

like i say i don't believe there has to not be a god or gods
but we really need to realize that we can't expect them
to do everything for us. to clean up after us.
when we are perfectly capable of not screwing everything up
ourselves in the first place.

=^^=
.../\...

[TheChaosFactor]

No you haven't seen God... but have you seen gravity? Have you seen atoms? Do you beleive in them?

I can feel the physical effect of gravity every day, and given the proper tools I can see an atom as well. Theologists, scientists, nor laymen can offer me any proof other than "This is what I was told, and I read a book that said some guy parted water, and relayed a message from god"

Until somebody fills in the blanks in that book, I'll continue to file my Bible in the fairy tales section.

[StonerBill]

id expect the christian response is 'you see the influence of god everywhere too'

but anyway tis more that gravity is a much simpler thing than the supopsed god. it is a perfectly linear force. it is a really ignoran thing to ask if you can see gravity, because gravity is not an object or a thing, it is an energy, a relation almost, its a law of physics. you cannot see any forms of energy, you can only see the aprticles affected by them.
however you cannot say god is an energy, for all energies are perfectly linear. and god is in no way linear or following of laws of physics.

and you can see atoms everywhere you look you dont need a microscope. everything that reflects light is made of atoms.

[FreeWillFreeLove]

....I personally would define God as the combined pure energy of everything, give or take a few conditions. Energy is palatable and touchable, according to the most up-to-date scientific theory and ancient mystics matter is energy condensed (String Theory being the most dominant of the sciences proclaiming this, but it was touched upon by Einstein).

It seems the monotheistic view of a singular conscious God is not going to go away. There may be a reason for that. It isn't unnatural to suggest that the one God's faculties could be split into other dieties (like lots of religions across the world) but then that is suggesting that the energy/consciousness power of everything could/would/has been/is? shared between individual entities around and above us.

Lets put it this way; would you LIKE a God? Would you want it around, making sure everything's running smoothly, directing the movie or designing the game we all play; this being part. I don't BELIEVE in a God (the word belief comes from the word "lie" - be-lie-f; to lie. Indeed it is blind faith and ignorance that is the evil of this world). But also, if you were God, the oldest or most developed entity of conscious energy, if you prefer, then would you take part in your own test, would you play your own game?

God's values have been shown through every religion, and they are all true, because they are different culture's perception of the higher self; which is evolution. It is my belief http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif (I claim to know nothing) that we are headed towards evolution, and towards humanity finding Godhood. I have a book called The Big I Am, and one called God's Debris, which seem to put my own perceptions into literary form. The second one is by the guy who wrote the Dilbert comics. The other was bought for me by one of the guys you don't know from my sig.

[Soulless||Chaos]

But if you think of the probability of evolution to form man and for the Earth to be in exactly the right spot so gravity does not send us off in to space or crush our bones, I honestly don't know how you could say that is coincidence or good timing. Science can't explain everything.
but assuming existance is infinite (which i have yet to see anything suggesting otherwise), then it is infinitely probable. :H

[FreeWillFreeLove]

...to say we're "heading towards evolution" because it should be that we are always evolving, but that isn't necessarily true. I do mean a very real and perceivable-in-our-lifetime evolution.

That or a thousand years of Authority and Oppression represented by the ever-growing, ever-greedy hands of our higher human masters*. Just to reiterate my beliefs, if you imagine that the bible is a code (some people may be familiar with David Icke and that line of current affairs) then what we have, in biblical terms, is a fight between Good and Evil, God and Satan. Satan simply being Evil, the concept manifested. God being Good, Purity, Freedom, all that palarvah (an english expression for mumbo-jumbo, nonsense, etc http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif).

Within every religion you have the higher knowledge holders, the great thinkers and those they share it with, and their sheepeople. There is obviously ancient esoteric knowledge that could change the mould of mans destiny hidden within one or many of them.

Gotta run, goin to the beach.





*are they Human?

[StonerBill]

The relatively new study of neurotheology is finding that humans have evolved to have a part of the brain that stimulates spiritual beleif. It is common for all beleifs, and all spiritual mind-sets, from rational ot the most incredibly ludicrous.

Fundies protested the study of it for they beleives we shouldnt be studying into it this far. yeah right shiteaters.

Others beleive this is god's way of putting an antena in our brains

The scientific beleif is that since religious beleive has promoted greater cultural acceptance and greater will to spread the religion, humanity has used natural (or.. unnatural) selection to make this part of the brain so abundant.

they have found it is stimulated also by magnetism, and that different poelpe have different levels of activity in the area of the brain, as well as suscpetability to having spiritual experiences due to magnetism or seizures.


anyway these descovers are going to show why religions or ALL sorts are going to be aorund for a very long time, while this part of teh brain continues to stimulate spiritual beliefs.

[Varuna]

Varuna, basically all your saying is that existence proves existence. Well, existence itself is certainly good evidence that existence, at least, exists. But that is not, basically, all I am saying.

Because we exist in our present physical form, because time exists, because we have emotion, a god must exist. This is an absurd concept. It is an absurd concept, but it is not what I said.

If you'd like to ellaborate this idea, I'd like to read it. O.K. then. Let's take a stroll through the mythosphere.

First of all, this is the simplest truth I know: Love is not an emotion. Love is the realization of the beloved's inherent qualities. For what it is worth, love is also the realization of the lover's inherent quality, even though the lover may often let go of all thought of himself.

Love is something other than desire. Even though love and desire do accompany one another often enough, they are NOT the same thing.

Love is more than biology. Love is more than comfort, pleasure, satisfaction, or gratitude.

Love transforms, elevates, and re-creates both the lover and the beloved. And yet, love has no goal, love simply is. Love is it's own purpose.

The hint of the beginning of the real mystery to all of this is, once you realize what love is, once you know love, then you begin to recognize the essence of love in forms you may have never even imagined, much less allowed yourself to recognize.

Regardless of your emotions, or rather, regardless of how or what you feel about Christians, or any humans, sooner or later you have to recognize that, to the best of their ability, they actually do love one another.

Now, the real mystery to all of this is: The love you see between Christians, between Buddhists, between Muslims, between any Humans, between Chimpanzees, between Killer Whales, between Bees and Flowers, between Plants and Soil, etc. is identical to your love.

All I ask is that you just think about this idea for a little while, you know, the next time you're in a pondering mood.

Now, I realize that, if you don't want to play with this idea, then it does nothing to "prove" that God exists.

But, as I said earlier, regardless of whether or not you believe in God, you have to recognize the existence of such "concepts," or patterns of reality as creativity, truth, consciousness, existence, benevolence, etc. Regardless of your beliefs, you can (and someday, of course, maybe you should) go just as deeply into the mystery of these other patterns of reality. At some point, you may start to understand how love, creativity, truth, consciousness, existence, benevolence, etc. are somehow related to one another. When you do this, an image of God emerges that is as real as your right hand.

"2:There is no meaning, which makes me wonder why chaos isn't rampant everywhere. God is meaning". Well, if you're well versed in history you'll realize that chaos was rampant before organized religion came to be (and even very much of the time after religion came to be,... failed). This is the reason why religion was created in it's current form. Chaos? Meaning? God? If you love chaos you will look for, and see, chaos. If you love meaning you will look for, and see, meaning. If you love God you will look for, and see, God.

Religion is both vice and muse to the simple man. In the words of Karl Marx, "Religion is the opiate of the masses."Ideally, religion is your awareness of, and relationship to, reality. If you refuse to be aware, then, of course, it will seem like some kind of foreign substance. Whether or not the trip is a good one depends upon your relationship.

The arguments I've seen here are pure fallacy. I'm not really sure how anyone, especially someone of 30, 40 years old can be this uneducated and this confused on the idea of Christianity. Well then, enlighten me. I eagerly await any vision of clarity that you wish to share.

Peace and Love

[Antimatter235]

Love is not an emotion. lol, yeah and neither is hate, it's just a realization that the Devil exists...

religion is your awareness of, and relationship to, reality.Yeah and all those tools who fight for their religion and have God with them in any silly war imaginable certainly are aware of reality.

[campbell34]

WOW, you just blew my mind, because the spirits brought it to my attention, many times, with the words, "you are small"
Actually the bible dose say that the sons of God took earthly woman as wives. Their children became like giants. The sons of God were fallen angles, they did not create man but did take human wives. The reason for the flood was not so much because Noah was such a good guy. It was to rid the earth of a demonic
population. The bible states that in the last days it will be like this again. UFOs
are Satans way of approching man one more time. He is trying to get man to believe that he is from an advance race. The beings from these ships are very interested in human sexuality.