Over 300 Proofs of God's Existance

[Mui]

*warning: may be offensive to those who use religion as a crutch*

If you are christian and don't want your religious views criticized, please exit now. (and than ask yourself why you went to the atheist forum)

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm

Found this. Was pretty funny.
Enjoy.

[Mui]

more good stuff... ^^

Top Ten Signs that You're a Christian




10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of your god.


9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from lesser life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Trinity god.

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" -- including women, children, and trees!

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loop-holes in the scientifically established age of the Earth (4.55 billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by pre-historic tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that the Earth is a couple of generations old.

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects -- will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet you consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving".

3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to prove Christianity.

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1 - You actually know a lot less than many Atheists and Agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history -- but still call yourself a Christian.

[Mui]

http://www.geocities.com/darwin_copernicus/jpgs/a1christ.jpg

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/1480/jesussaves2.gif

im getting a little carried away now arent i.

george carlin is my personal savior
http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GeorgeCarlin.txt

[AreYouExperienced]

Funny stuff, thanks for that.

[LuciferSam]

Sacrilicious!

[Razorofoccam]

*warning: may be offensive to those who use religion as a crutch*

If you are christian and don't want your religious views criticized, please exit now. (and than ask yourself why you went to the atheist forum)

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm

Found this. Was pretty funny.
Enjoy.

Mui

Good stuff. I'm printing it as a hand out.
Pretty poor compared to watchtower. But 'occam' WILL fit throught the eye of a needle. While BIG FAT BLOATED religion will not.
For he preaches no belief. Only a method to define an accurate method to belief.


Occam

[Jatom]

Over Three Hundred Disproofs of God’s Existence (http://www.tektonics.org/300proof.html)- a parody

[mynameiskc]

http://www.geocities.com/darwin_copernicus/jpgs/a1christ.jpg

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/1480/jesussaves2.gif

im getting a little carried away now arent i.

george carlin is my personal savior
http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GeorgeCarlin.txt
this is one of the most sickeningly funny pictures i've ever seen. i cramped from laughing.

[Kharakov]

3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to prove Christianity. It's personal knowledge that non believers lack that is proof (beyond reasonable doubt) for believers. Remember the kid who could do calculus in 9th grade but failed english consistently? Remember the Kid who was taking college courses in 7th grade but totally lacked social skills? Look at Richard Feynman- great physicist with little to no knowledge of spiritual matters (unless you consider quantuum mechanics 'spiritual' physics) because of his focus upon farticulate matter. Just because you are a genious in some field (such as logic or rhetoric) does not mean that you can grasp even the most rudamentary spiritual concept.

An atheist is the equivalent of a spiritual retard. Many theists are retarded in other matters. There is nothing wrong with you being spiritually retarded (atheistic) it is just something you have to learn to except. I would not slap you in the face with your disability if it was not necessary for you to acknowledge your developmental problems in order to overcome them. People with down's syndrome have become actors- with God's help an atheist can become a theist (and possibly a better theist than those raised as a theist).

[Mui]

haha spirituality is nothing you can study on and become good ^^... i questioned my spirituality a lot... meditated every day fer like 2-3 years... theres nothing out there... i can grasp it, but it doesnt seem logical.

[Dizzy Man]

I don't mind these kinds of jokes, esecially when they are in good humour. But there is a danger of people (especially young and impressionable people) reading these out of context and believing that this stuff is actually true.

If you found it amusing, please remember it is just a joke. We Christians are the butt of many a joke, but it is just a joke; we are not morons.

[Mui]

some of em' are.

[cerridwen]

there's a lot of if's in that... I don't get it.

[Razorofoccam]

I don't mind these kinds of jokes, esecially when they are in good humour. But there is a danger of people (especially young and impressionable people) reading these out of context and believing that this stuff is actually true.

If you found it amusing, please remember it is just a joke. We Christians are the butt of many a joke, but it is just a joke; we are not morons.
Dizzy

Yes;.. Christianity is the butt of many a joke.

What jesus said was no joke. he spoke from the heart [of reason]
Religion however.

Speaks from self interest.
Organised religion exists to make sure it exists.
And any who get in the way are crushed.

Exactly the same as politics.
Organised religion IS politics.

That is why agnostics have a good chuckle over the validity of religion.
It is human politics..

And as such.. Has no 'objective' validity. [it exists as a structure of information,,interprteted by humans,,and no more]

Occam

[Guitar_god_]

It's personal knowledge that non believers lack that is proof (beyond reasonable doubt) for believers. Remember the kid who could do calculus in 9th grade but failed english consistently? Remember the Kid who was taking college courses in 7th grade but totally lacked social skills? Look at Richard Feynman- great physicist with little to no knowledge of spiritual matters (unless you consider quantuum mechanics 'spiritual' physics) because of his focus upon farticulate matter. Just because you are a genious in some field (such as logic or rhetoric) does not mean that you can grasp even the most rudamentary spiritual concept.

An atheist is the equivalent of a spiritual retard. Many theists are retarded in other matters. There is nothing wrong with you being spiritually retarded (atheistic) it is just something you have to learn to except. I would not slap you in the face with your disability if it was not necessary for you to acknowledge your developmental problems in order to overcome them. People with down's syndrome have become actors- with God's help an atheist can become a theist (and possibly a better theist than those raised as a theist).
I'm just glad you took this time to talk on the spiritual retard forum. Thanks...

[Beatle Kat]

It's hilarious!


ARGUMENT FROM LACK OF IMAGINATION
(1) I couldn't imagine not believing in God.
(2) Therefore, God exists.


ARGUMENT FROM CHURCH
(1) Lots of people go to church.
(2) Therefore, God exists.


ARGUMENT FROM EXHAUSTION (abridged)
(1) Do you agree with the utterly trivial proposition X?
(2) Atheist: of course.
(3) How about the slightly modified proposition X'?
(4) Atheist: Um, no, not really.
(5) Good. Since we agree, how about Y? Is that true?
(6) Atheist: No! And I didn't agree with X'!
(7) With the truths of these clearly established, surely you agree that Z is true as well?
(8) Atheist: No. So far I have only agreed with X! Where is this going, anyway?
(9) I'm glad we all agree.....
....
(37) So now we have used propositions X, X', Y, Y', Z, Z', P, P', Q and Q' to arrive at the obviously valid point R. Agreed?
(38) Atheist: Like I said, so far I've only agreed with X. Where is this going?
....
(81) So we now conclude from this that propositions L'', L''' and J'' are true. Agreed?
(82) I HAVEN'T AGREED WITH ANYTHING YOU'VE SAID SINCE X! WHERE IS THIS GOING!?
....
(177) ...and it follows that proposition HRV, SHQ'' and BTU' are all obviously valid. Agreed?
(178) [Atheist either faints from overwork or leaves in disgust]
(179) Therefore, God exists.

[dna]

:) www.ex-atheist.com (http://www.ex-atheist.com)

God is real,but he's picky!
He's not a begger. You must be called.
I find most secular individual's rude and vulgar!
They want the right to use filthy words,and cuss in
public places,yet they don't believe people have the
right to talk about Jesus Christ to them.
sounds sick to me.
I hate curse words,and I don't think people have the
right to use them,especially not in public.
Religion is growing faster than ever,thats not going to
stop.People will have to tolerate the religious views of
others or go to jail. atheism is on the way out,thats the good
news,but the bad news is,christians like me will be called a hater and someone trying to stand in the way of world peace
because I believe that Jesus Christ is the only way to God!
Religion is growing,and all religions will be accepted.
only atheists and Jesus freaks will be frowned on,and even
killed one day.

[dna]

It's hilarious!




You think thats was funny? Wow!!!

[intheworks]

several things....

*warning: may be offensive to those who use religion as a crutch*

If you are christian and don't want your religious views criticized, please exit now. (and than ask yourself why you went to the atheist forum)

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm

Found this. Was pretty funny.
Enjoy.
The site was amusing but utilized a weak style of argumentation (ie. strawperson arguements) the basic concept used here is to put up an overly simplified claim that now appears stupid, and attack that rather than having an actual intellectual dispute with actual claims from intellectual theologians. I personally am a Nietzschean existentialist that would defend Dionysian creativity as an alternative to the claims of different spirituality strains. So as it is already probably abundantly apparent I completely disagree with Christian theology, but also with this weak atheist argumentation although I am sure the site has more profound articles as well that I just haven't seen thus far.

There is nothing wrong with you being spiritually retarded (atheistic) it is just something you have to learn to except.
First of all when you call someone retarded, it'd be a good idea to use a word that makes sense in your sentence you dolt. For example, maybe us "spiritual retards" should ACCEPT this mindless categorization of ourselves into one tied in all-inclusive grouping, rather than EXCEPT it.

Furthermore, your whole post is one gigantic lack of substance. Nothing is claimed here that has a warrent to support it. You have no idea why each individual atheist doesn't believe in your particular theological belief, and you still think you have somehow attacked their beliefs.

[matthew]

I personally am a Nietzschean existentialist that would defend Dionysian creativity as an alternative to the claims of different spirituality strains. So as it is already probably abundantly apparent I completely disagree with Christian theology, but also with this weak atheist argumentation although I am sure the site has more profound articles as well that I just haven't seen thus far.
wow that made my head hurt ... :)

[LuciferSam]

:) www.ex-atheist.com (http://www.ex-atheist.com)

God is real,but he's picky!
He's not a begger. You must be called.
I find most secular individual's rude and vulgar!
They want the right to use filthy words,and cuss in
public places,yet they don't believe people have the
right to talk about Jesus Christ to them.
I think you have that right. I would still ignore you though. Likewise, you can ignore cuss words.


sounds sick to me.
I hate curse words,and I don't think people have the
right to use them,especially not in public.
And just above you were complaining on behalf of freedom of speech for Christians... they're just cuss words, for god's sake. They're only as potent as you yourself make them out to be. It's all in the mind... it's been years since a curse word has offended me.


Religion is growing faster than ever,thats not going to
stop.People will have to tolerate the religious views of
others or go to jail. atheism is on the way out,thats the good
news,but the bad news is,christians like me will be called a hater and someone trying to stand in the way of world peace
because I believe that Jesus Christ is the only way to God!
Religion is growing,and all religions will be accepted.
only atheists and Jesus freaks will be frowned on,and even
killed one day.
http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/humm.gifI... see... what a wonderful vision of religious tolerancehttp://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[dna]

I think you have that right. I would still ignore you though. Likewise, you can ignore cuss words.
[/size]

And just above you were complaining on behalf of freedom of speech for Christians... they're just cuss words, for god's sake. They're only as potent as you yourself make them out to be. It's all in the mind... it's been years since a curse word has offended me.

[size=2]
http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/humm.gifI... see... what a wonderful vision of religious tolerancehttp://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
:) I don't think you understand any of this at all.
Freedom of speech has nothing to do with freedom to curse!
Curse words sound very ugly and they make you look ignorant.
You say you don't want the Government tellin' you what to do
yet you demand more rights and show in public what kinds of
rebellion you are into and you don't get it that the Government knows it,or that the Government thinks that most
people are stupid!!!
Yes,it's really going to help America for people to act like they
cannot control their sex drives,V.D. spreading,unwanted pregnancies,abortions, teens driving drunk,killing each other,teen pregnancy and suicide,everyone changing the english language to freedom of speech to curse words,and pornography,ect..... ( I don't think it helps us any!)
The Government thinks most people are stupid except for the
so called "Elite" groups who think they have a right to choose
who should be allowed to live.
:H Already mexicans in Mexico are taking the I.D. chip,and
it's a tracking device.
Big Brother is here,and so is Babylon (say hello'),Sodom &
Gomorrah,and the days are like the days of Noah. satan did
a grand job of making christians look like the boy who cried
wolf too many times,so now that the wolf is really here,no
one will believe us. Trust me,the Government wants nothing
more than to control us,and if enough panic gets started,people will be begging the Government for help.
They set up and used hardened criminals to cause a panic
with all the missing kids just so people will buy the I.D. chip,
but that chip can be used against you,and it will if you choose
not to obey the Government.

[dna]

I don't mind these kinds of jokes, esecially when they are in good humour. But there is a danger of people (especially young and impressionable people) reading these out of context and believing that this stuff is actually true.

If you found it amusing, please remember it is just a joke. We Christians are the butt of many a joke, but it is just a joke; we are not morons.
:cool: No matter how ugly they get,for Jesus,keep trying to help
them,because when they do finally see for themselves,they
will be very happy you said something to them.
hang in there,o.k?
God loves for us to love even the hard to love.

[dna]

some of em' are.
:sunglasse Some of them are chickens?
When the cock crows three times..........

[dna]

there's a lot of if's in that... I don't get it.
hey,I hope this will help.
www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/02-star2.htm (http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/02-star2.htm)

[dna]

*warning: may be offensive to those who use religion as a crutch*

If you are christian and don't want your religious views criticized, please exit now. (and than ask yourself why you went to the atheist forum)

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm

Found this. Was pretty funny.

Enjoy.:sunglasse For those of us who know God is real for a fact,take it from
me,you don't want to waste another minute of your life!
www.absolutetruth.net/creation/ (http://www.absolutetruth.net/creation/)
www.rae.org (http://www.rae.org/)
www.jesusislord.com/#evolution (http://www.jesusislord.com/#evolution)
www.psrast.org/junkdna.htm (http://www.psrast.org/junkdna.htm)

www.creationscience.com (http://www.creationscience.com/)
www.icr.org (http://www.icr.org/)
www.origins.org/articles/vitz_psychologyofatheism.html (http://www.origins.org/articles/vitz_psychologyofatheism.html)

[LuciferSam]

I don't think you understand any of this at all.
Freedom of speech has nothing to do with freedom to curse! Cursing is still a form of speech.

Curse words sound very ugly and they make you look ignorant. There are some entire languages out there that can "sound ugly," that's purely subjective. Anyway, again, curse words are just words. No one has died or contracted an illness or whatever from hearing a curse word. There are lots of other things, such as what you mention below, that are far more deserving of fussing over. Do I think cussing is always good? No, but I don't think of it as evil either. I think there are times when a cuss word suits the situation just because other words fail to have that extra punch. You resort to cuss words when words fail to describe your emotion, sort of an acknowledgement of the limitations of our language. In other words they're there to be said when you're really pissed off or psyched or dumbfounded or whatever. It can get annoying if people use 'em in every sentence constantly or something, but it's still a pretty benign practice. And anyway, cuss words will lose their sting if you just stop and realize that they're just harmless sounds.


You say you don't want the Government tellin' you what to do
yet you demand more rights and show in public what kinds of
rebellion you are into and you don't get it that the Government knows it,or that the Government thinks that most
people are stupid!!!
Yes,it's really going to help America for people to act like they
cannot control their sex drives,V.D. spreading,unwanted pregnancies,abortions, teens driving drunk,killing each other,teen pregnancy and suicide,everyone changing the english language to freedom of speech to curse words,and pornography,ect..... ( I don't think it helps us any!)
The Government thinks most people are stupid except for the
so called "Elite" groups who think they have a right to choose
who should be allowed to live.
....

I love how you seem to equate the evils of curse words up there with murder, suicide, teen pregnancy & drunk driving, and venereal diseases:rolleyes:


:H Already mexicans in Mexico are taking the I.D. chip,and
it's a tracking device.
Big Brother is here,and so is Babylon (say hello'),Sodom &
Gomorrah,and the days are like the days of Noah. satan did
a grand job of making christians look like the boy who cried
wolf too many times,so now that the wolf is really here,no
one will believe us. Trust me,the Government wants nothing
more than to control us,and if enough panic gets started,people will be begging the Government for help.
They set up and used hardened criminals to cause a panic
with all the missing kids just so people will buy the I.D. chip,
but that chip can be used against you,and it will if you choose
not to obey the Government.:rolleyes: Um... yeah. Words fail me here... that's some crazy-ass shit:p

[Wandering Pisces]

I used to be athiest, but I'll let you live life and learn.

But you athiest make it seem like all thiest are not only against god, but you are so against any form of god that you esspecially do mean things and say mean things JUST to prove that god isn't going to strike you down with a lightning bolt.

I used to be athiest, and then I realized that my not believing in a Christian god didn't mean that I was atheist, it just meant that I believed in energy and the universe.

Atheist spend so much time finding reasons to justify them not believing in the bible.

Like the council of nicea? Like everything else I could list here.

If they would spend more time SEARCHING for WHAT they believe in instead of what they DON'T.

I realized that being atheist, means that your life has no meaning, except for the future children of the earth and then you die.

I like my new set of spiritual ideals much better =) I live, try to feel loved, and expand my love to others, and when I die, if I am spiritually in tune then I get to go onto the next level.



http://ascension2000.com/ConvergenceIII/ - read this...

http://ascension2000.com/Ra-studyguide.htm - read this...

http://educate-yourself.org/cn/rule...me08may03.shtml (http://educate-yourself.org/cn/rulesofthegame08may03.shtml)

[FreakyJoeMan]

"Atheist spend so much time finding reasons to justify them not believing in the bible."

Other people don't have to justify their spiritual beleifs, so why do I? I know what and why I beleive what I do. And why is it, pray tell, that athiests are always painted as a cynical, depressed, self-centered bunch?

[Kharakov]

Other people don't have to justify their spiritual beleifs, so why do I? I know what and why I beleive what I do. You only have as much wisdom as you have been granted and it shows.

And why is it, pray tell, that athiests are always painted as a cynical, depressed, self-centered bunch?
Probably because the majority of atheists are a cynical, self centered bunch. I prefer to paint atheists as jokers or fools.

[campbell34]

some of em' are.
God is dead ? Really!

If God is dead the bible would be untrue, and so would all those bible stories. But guess what, they found the Red Sea crossing site. Divers are now discovering the remnants of pharaohs army. Chariots and chariot wheels are being located on the bottom along with coral incrusted deadmens bones. Not far from there they discovered mount sinia. That is the mountain where Moses received the Ten Comandments. According to the bible God dwelt on the mountain and the bible states that the fire from God was like a furnance. God instructed Moses to put boundry markers all around the mountain to keep the people away. The markers have been found, and the mountain peak has been burned black. The altar that the bible states that the golden calf was displayed on is still there. The caves of moses has also been found. The Bible states that when the Jews retake Israel that the generation that sees this will not pass away before Christ returns. The bible states that the east gate in Jerusalem would be sealed and remain so until Christ returns. The east gate was sealed about 400 years ago. On two occasions the moslems tried to break through it and end the prophecy they failed on both tries. The gate is still sealed as the prophecy said. The gate will be opened when the God you donot believe in returns. The Jews returning to Israel is part of Gods future plan. The world doesent have a clue, but very soon its going to get its face slapped. The God of the bible is not dead, but this world is to stupid to see what God is about to do.

[JesusDiedForU]

You would think in an atheist forum atheists would be all over campbell's post but I guess they just can't handle the truth.

[Showtime/Redneck-Bud]

MAN yer arrogant JesusDude... total ego trip...

[FreakyJoeMan]

You only have as much wisdom as you have been granted and it shows.


Probably because the majority of atheists are a cynical, self centered bunch. I prefer to paint atheists as jokers or fools.
And I am positive you know what most of the athiests on earth feel in their hearts. I also prefere to paint Christians as bigots and zealots, is my opinion more valid than yers?

[JesusDiedForU]

MAN yer arrogant JesusDude... total ego trip...
I was just trying to get people to talk.... everyone in the atheist forum is saying negative things about the Bible and God and when campbell presents facts there's silence...

[Showtime/Redneck-Bud]

You don't want people to talk... you want people to shut up and listen to you... and then when people disagree with you, you can't believe it... you just can't comprehend the idea that somebody could disagree with you... so you repeat everything you say over and over, thinking all of us "ignorant atheists" were to fucking stupid to understand you the first time around... to you, there's just no way in hell that someone could here yer opinions and not "see the light"... arrogance... ego trip... and if you really want people to take you seriously should stop thinking that everyone (even atheists) will hear the words "it's true because the bible says so" and go "Oh, well that makes sense... sorry i ever doubted you JesusMan..."

[malina]

sometimes i think as much as christians are desperately clinging to the belief in god for whatever their reasons, .... comfort... purpose.. SOMETHING to believe in... or even as they would say because read the bible .... athiests seem to me almost just as desperate to cling to the fact that god does NOT exist and also waste a whole damn lot of energy on the trying to argue out who is right or ... at least see who has the better argument. anyway... i dont know why but people are curious beings.. we are also pretty insecure if we feel lost. so someone is always gonna believe in god. that doesnt make them idiots. its all this arguing.. not the arguing in itsself but the common urgency of making someone else see that you are right that is so ridiculous. just like what many athiests do. there are also those out there who have considered lots of possibilities and gone around in circles trying to decide whether or not to believe cuz at this point in human evolution we just plain cannot PROVE the existance OR non existance of God. its all a matter of what you choose to believe in if anything at all.. having a religion in itsself is also not a bad thing at all... most people have to find something to use as a focal point in their lives... sometimes it can really help a person. choosing not to believe is also not so bad in itsself .. its basically how a person chooses to live aside from that makes or breaks the reputation of a lifestyle or belief system.so everyone just chill out. believe or dont believe whatever the hell you want and let the next man decide for himself. ... as long as we are alive we will not know if god exists or not anyway... science can keep proving... for or against but if god DID exist ... he seems to enjoy watching us tie our brains in knots. i respect believers. sometimes i wish i still did. i wish i had faith in something at least anyway. but here i am .. .lost soul swimmin in a fish bowl year after year .

[GanjaPrince]

hello everybody,

God is flowing along, what is changing is OUR UNDERSTANDING of what God is...

People in all sorts of religions, cults, sects, followers of mystical teachers or lack thereof, are turning on to the experience of god, they are not just blindly believing in something, but they are experiencing divinity, oneness with a superintelligent loving universe, some see glimpses, others dive in... They see this through meditation, yoga, tantra, psychedelic drugs, spontaneous changes in consciousness, love, worship, near death experience, devotion and on and on and on... There are so many ways people are turning on. Yet many all over are finding the spiritual path, they see that all paths lead to this place, even paths away from this place of eternal compassion for all that is are really going toward it, you can't escape what is inevitable, total healing! We see there is a unity in religions. We see they are talking about the same thing... We are awakening to our heart, expanding of conciousness into higher realms, evolving... the creation of evolution!

This mystical KNOWING of god, is very different, it brings with it transending bliss, unconditional love, visions, expansive peace, miracles, going beyond the ego, beyond the physical plane, into the deeper realms of the soul.

There are so many planes of reality, once you surf into new ones, you begin to see that you were missing out.

I say this with much personal understanding, for a few years ago, i was an athiest, said things like god is dead, trashed religion, all of them, spiritual crap, and would really pick unfairly on christians... Then I had a mystical experience on LSD, and knew that there was SOMETHING MORE then what i had thought was reality... I KNEW it was real, it was what all the religions had talked about and I had tasted it... I got into the spiritual path, and turned on to meditation, yoga, spiritual teachers and all that sorts of stuff... I love to learn from many different religions, the real learning occurs in my intuitive heart. So i guess you could call me a heart man, but i don't belong to any religion even if I may focus more on the eastern mystical teachings.

Now on to Jesus...

Jesus was a realized being, he is much misunderstood, but what he was really saying was, Love your neighbor as yourself, why? because they are you... and love god with all your heart, mind and soul... never think, do or say anything that would ever hurt anyone.

Do this, and it all comes together... people say, yeah, but he also said, he is the way, the truth and the light and no one comes to the father but through him... And this means that christ is the only true path, and all the other paths lead to hell..

No silly, through him, means as you near GOD realization, you TAKE on the attributes of Christ, you become unconditionally loving, nonviolent, all seeing, all knowing, miracolous abilities granted to you by a higher power which is constantly guiding you, forgiving, compassion and willing to sacrafice your body for all of humanity!

This is what happened to many saints, and mystics that became totally one with God, they are still around, Amma for instance... there have been many throughout history.

christ is a state of consciousness, he realized, he is in you, in all of us... Many saints, mystics and beings have ripped open thier heart, laughing all the way to the kingdom of God within, serving all beings with trembling power of compassion, the healing bliss of love, seeing the perfection!



“One night, the abbot invited me into his study, he was beautiful German scholar rosy cheeks pudgy beautiful little man, wonderful, he looked up at me, and he said, Ram Dass, there is one question I have to ask you. ‘What is the meaning between the kiss between Judas and Jesus?’ ‘Perhaps they were enjoying the game’ and he went into ecstasy and we started dancing around the room together.” Ram Dass story about a Benedictine Monastery retreat he intended.


And remember, silly, god is not to be found in your rational thinking logical mind... like a quantum physicist would say you can't think rationally about a 12 demenional reality... god is playful, love is light, spirituality is very funny, play with god, find that place of compassionate humor for all beings... and be free from all attachments!

the process is perfection

[JesusDiedForU]

Whatever fits your politically correct world... it does matter which god you believe in you will go to heaven

But you see that is what made Jesus different. He was not politically correct He claimed he was the only way and the price was death. And I am sure if He went around the world today claiming he was the messiah that he was the only way the world would still cry out "crucify him!"

[JesusDiedForU]

You don't want people to talk... you want people to shut up and listen to you... and then when people disagree with you, you can't believe it... you just can't comprehend the idea that somebody could disagree with you... so you repeat everything you say over and over, thinking all of us "ignorant atheists" were to fucking stupid to understand you the first time around... to you, there's just no way in hell that someone could here yer opinions and not "see the light"... arrogance... ego trip... and if you really want people to take you seriously should stop thinking that everyone (even atheists) will hear the words "it's true because the bible says so" and go "Oh, well that makes sense... sorry i ever doubted you JesusMan..."
-What I want is people to become followers of Jesus Christ. But that usually does not come without some sort of confrontation. And even if you do prove the Bible is a 100% true to them they still have to accept it. So I challenge them to prove the Bible wrong but all people do is say broad statements and never get detailed about the Arcaheologic, Sceintific, or Prophetic proof.

So I challenge everyone that thinks the Bible is false to go and prove it wrong. Infact I'll make it simplier I challenge you to read the link below it will save you a lot of time.

[GanjaPrince]

Christ will return, but not in the way that fundemenatalists promotes, the heart that he realized will be found inside you, yes you! you are christ!

The Second Coming of Christ
Excerpts from the Introduction
By Paramahansa Yogananda


To provide you with a first glimpse of the scope and content of The Second Coming of Christ, following are a few excerpts from Paramahansa Yogananda's thirteen-page Introduction to the two volumes.

In titling this work The Second Coming of Christ, I am not referring to a literal return of Jesus to earth. He came two thousand years ago and, after imparting a universal path to God's kingdom, was crucified and resurrected; his reappearance to the masses now is not necessary for the fulfillment of his teachings. What is necessary is for the cosmic wisdom and divine perception of Jesus to speak again through each one's own experience and understanding of the infinite Christ Consciousness that was incarnate in Jesus. That will be his true Second Coming.

There is a distinguishing difference of meaning between Jesus and Christ. His given name was Jesus; his honorific title was "Christ." In his little human body called Jesus was born the vast Christ Consciousness, the omniscient Intelligence of God omnipresent in every part and particle of creation. This Consciousness is the "only begotten Son of God," so designated because it is the sole perfect reflection in creation of the Transcendental Absolute, Spirit or God the Father.

It was of that Infinite Consciousness, replete with the love and bliss of God, that Saint John spoke when he said: "As many as received him [the Christ Consciousness], to them gave he power to become the sons of God." Thus according to Jesus' own teaching as recorded by his most highly advanced apostle, John, all souls who become united with Christ Consciousness by intuitive Self-realization are rightly called sons of God....

In these pages I offer to the world an intuitionally perceived spiritual interpretation of the words spoken by Jesus, truths received through actual communion with Christ Consciousness. They will be found to be universally true if they are studied conscientiously and meditated upon with soul-awakened intuitive perception. They reveal the perfect unity that exists among the revelations of the Christian Bible, the Bhagavad Gita of India, and all other time-tested true scriptures.

The saviors of the world do not come to foster inimical doctrinal divisions; their teachings should not be used toward that end. It is something of a misnomer even to refer to the New Testament as the "Christian" Bible, for it does not belong exclusively to any one sect. Truth is meant for the blessing and upliftment of the entire human race. As the Christ Consciousness is universal, so does Jesus Christ belong to all....

It is an erroneous assumption of limited minds that great ones such as Jesus, Krishna, and other divine incarnations are gone from the earth when they are no longer visible to human sight. This is not so. When a liberated master has dissolved his body in Spirit, and yet manifests in form to receptive devotees (as Jesus has appeared throughout the centuries since his passing, such as to Saint Francis, Saint Teresa, and many others of East and West), it means he has an ongoing role to play in the destiny of the world. Even when masters have completed the specific role for which they took on a physical incarnation, it is the divinely ordained task of some to look after the welfare of humanity and assist in guiding its progress. Jesus Christ is very much alive and active today. In Spirit and occasionally taking on a flesh-and-blood form, he is working unseen by the masses for the regeneration of the world. With his all-embracing love, Jesus is not content merely to enjoy his blissful consciousness in Heaven. He is deeply concerned for mankind and wishes to give his followers the means to attain the divine freedom of entry into God's Infinite Kingdom....

To reestablish God in the temples of souls through revival of the original teachings of God-communion as propounded by Christ and Krishna is why I was sent to the West by Mahavatar Babaji, the deathless Yogi-Christ of modern India, whose existence was revealed to the world at large for the first time in 1946 in Autobiography of a Yogi....

For uncounted millenniums, India has been the spiritual lightland of the earth. It is in India that the divine soul-science of yoga —union with God through direct personal communion with Him —has been preserved. That is why Jesus went to India as a youth, and why he returned to India and conferred with Babaji for the spiritual evolution of the world. Time will testify to this truth, that they have given to the world through the Kriya Yoga teachings of Self-Realization Fellowship (Yogoda Satsanga Society of India) the techniques of meditation by which each soul can reunite with God through inner realization of the universal Christ-Krishna Consciousness....

These teachings have been sent to explain the truth as Jesus intended it to be known in the world — not to give a new Christianity, but to give the real Christ-teaching: how to become like Christ, how to resurrect the Eternal Christ within one's Self....

Many of Jesus' sayings and parables, which have undergone transformations due to mistranslation from the Aramaic, I did not understand at a first reading. But as I prayed and attuned myself with him, I received the meaning directly from him. Revelations that I never expected have been given to me; little did I dream what wealth of truth lay concealed. I believe that readers of this book will find that meanings buried twenty centuries have been brought out here for the first time, interpretations of the words of Jesus as he would talk to the people of today — truths he conveyed to his disciples and which he wants understood by devotees of the world throughout all time. Those who are receptive will feel through direct perception the message that Christ is speaking to them; for all I have done is to receive and convey the fullness of his thoughts and consciousness....I hear Christ in the land of my inspiration; I behold Christ speaking to me all the eternal wisdom he intended to convey within his pregnant words....

Jesus said, "We speak that we do know,"* and through this new interpretation I feel certain that people will be enabled to understand that true knowledge, the wisdom-realizations, which he meant the world to have. Therefore, in spite of multitudinous interpretations of his words already written by others, I believe that Christ has inspired me to lift the veil of misunderstanding and misinterpretation of his teachings and utter them anew in their native purity, divested of misconceptions, and stress their applicability to the changed conditions and life of modern civilization. The people of today should break through the dark glass of theology — intellectual knowledge about God — and perceive God directly.** Such is my conviction, in thus writing the first thorough study by an Oriental of the words of Christ, who also was born in an Oriental land and who spent many years in India....

As you read the pages of The Second Coming, you will see the mist of difficulty, misunderstanding, and mystery about the words of Jesus lifted forever after the lapse of twenty centuries. Many sects, many denominations, many beliefs, many persecutions, many conflicts and upheavals have been created by misinterpretations. Now, Christ reveals the consummate message in the simple words he spoke to an ancient people in a less-advanced age of civilization. Read, understand, and feel Christ speaking to you through this "Second Coming" bible, urging you to be redeemed by realization of the true "Second Coming," the resurrection within you of the Infinite Christ Consciousness.

[sylvanlightning]

Seek the kingdom of heaven within you.
I and my father are one.
What I have done you can do also and more.
Walk with me hand in hand and gaze and the limitless light of my formless face.

Words...

Seek the living word within.
Go into yourself and listen.
Prayer is speaking to God.

Meditation is listening to God.

Let thine eye be single and the body will fill with light.

Peace be with you & Namaste,
Yeshua

[GanjaPrince]

the vibes of your post speak louder then the words communicated!


To my brothers and sisters;

When the mind is still, we can hear, see and experience the subtle :)

OMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

[Showtime/Redneck-Bud]

JesusWasABlackMan,

"What I want is people to become followers of Jesus Christ."

Ah-HA!! So... you admit it... yer just here to convert "sinners"... well, good luck, kid... especially with stupid, uneducated, sinning ol' me...

"Certain things are complete superstition and have no validity at all in the Bible. Yeah. They're just the antithesis of everything that is correct intellectually." - Lenny Bruce

[fotia]

Probably because the majority of atheists are a cynical, self centered bunch. I prefer to paint atheists as jokers or fools.I actually had this vision of athiests before but then I met this real cool guy named Nimmo who is Athiest but not an asshole, just simply does not believe that a God exists. DOesn't claim to know anything either.. just believes.

[StonerBill]

most athiests i know (and being one) are more morally minded poeple than the christians.

[TheHammerSpeaks]

Stonerbill brings up an interesting question, can atheists be good? (Bill doesn't actually use the form of a question; he makes a speculative assertion. But the question can be raised nonetheless) Now, the word "good" itself is a very vague word. So, it is necessary to list some of the qualities that makes one good. These qualities will no doubt also be vague, but they will serve to clarify, at least somewhat, what it means to be good. One who is good loves, shows fidelity, is compassionate, is merciful, is generous, and the list could potentially continue on indefinately until I describe good using negatives such as "not vicious." So, someone has to draw the line as to how many of these qualifications a man must meet to be good. I intend to do no such line drawing; I leave that to you. But I do want to focus on the second quality that made my list, fidelity.

To have faith in another is a greater kind of loyalty than to have faith in oneself because others can let you down. That's not to say that you cannot disappoint yourself, but you have a degree of control over your own decisions that you cannot impose on others. Faith in another requires trust.

Having established that faith in another is superior to faith in oneself, we must now determine a hierarchy of "others" or "Not-I's" as objects of faith. Nietzsche writes that in all of nature, man is the only animal capable of making promises. Since faith is a sort of promise, it would be ridiculous to put one's faith in an animal because an animal cannot reciprocate. Next in the chain is faith in other human beings. This is the kind of faith held by atheists, agnostics, and secular humanists. It requires little justification, since all men of all creeds profess faith in their fellow man.

But faith in God is the greatest of all. The measure of what makes one sort of faith greater than another is not contingent upon the object of faith, but upon the subject of faith. The position of God at the top of the hierarchy is not due to His omnipotence or benevolence but is due instead to the strength of faith necessary on the part of the believer. It is faith in a being whose existence cannot be proven or verified. It is faith in concepts that seem unfathomable, in a God who died on the cross for men, and in the promise of sinners being united with Him in heaven. And I dare say that a faith which requires belief in what seems to be the impossible on the part of the believer strengthens the believer, allowing him to fulfil his potentiality as a human being. And makes him a better man because of it.

So, can an atheist be good? Well, I didn't really answer that now did I? It really comes down to how essential faith is to the good life. I happen to consider faith very highly. If you do not, then I really can't argue with you. But if you do, then I hope I gave you something to think about.

P.S. I'm a little disappointed with how this post turned out. You see, I'm at work and so I cannot devote the time and effort necessary to make this post satisfactory. But it's more than that, too. I'm trying to convey concepts that cannot be understood, only felt.

[matthew]

most athiests i know (and being one) are more morally minded poeple than the christians.I have found that..i think people that cloud their vision with religeon..always make judgements based on not what they feel just what they think...

If anybody asks me if religeon should be practised..is God out there... i say

'I don't care'

and for all you spirtualists (of any kind) out there..

'I don't care'

Imagine were we would be if only selfish irelevant . 'meaning of life' crap did not hinder societies..*sigh*

I do find it all intresting ..... but realy 'i don't care'

[Shane99X]

*warning: may be offensive to those who use religion as a crutch*

If you are christian and don't want your religious views criticized, please exit now. (and than ask yourself why you went to the atheist forum)

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm

Found this. Was pretty funny.
Enjoy.
:D I'm bookmarking that site!

[Soulless||Chaos]

Trust me,the Government wants nothing
more than to control us
and what better way to control people than organized religion?

[malina]

i was born into a christian family and was always taught christian beliefs. my family fell out of it a little when i was young .. but somehow started going to church hardcore again when i was about 10 and became very firm believers. at the age of 11 without anyone pressuring me into it i chose to become babtised.. i really believed despite the fact that i knew i could not prove any of it true or false. when i got older.. in highschool i started questioning it again and my family pressured me to go to church and i was angry about this. i met a guy unlike the other people i knew and started dating him. maybe it was because he was foreign but i dont think so.. it seemed that he had a more open mind and had seen many more things than i did and his process of thinking seemed so clear to me i was amazed... anyway i fell in love with him and he fell in love with me. although i was questioning christianity i still was mostly clinging to christian based beliefs... my boyfriend was an athiest. we spent countless hours sitting together and talking about why we believed what we did... not in a way as to force our ideas upon each other but just to express our views and get to know each other as well as possible.. we both had very similar values but our idea of what it all meant was entirely different. in the beginning i was sad that he was not a christian because i had been taught that if he did not accept god he would go to hell... then somehow it struck me that god would be an idiot to send someone like that to hell.. he is such a good person. still all of the beliefs about good works not being what gets you into heaven but acceptance of god made me scared for him so i did try to pursuade a little without forcing it. what eventually happened, his knowledge was so much greater than mine, that i began to see his point of view. slowly i started to question if god maybe didnt really exist.. a funny thing happened though.. just when i thought he had won, he expressed to me that after all the talks and being with me he was starting to believe that it was possible . i guess in the end where we are today.. is still questioning .. i now cannot say that i can prove that god exists and he no longer says that he can prove that god does not exist... there is a kind of belief stuck in me deep down that i cannot deny as much as i would like to in my rational mind sometimes ... ingrained in me from my whole childhood or maybe something more i do not know... that gives me the feeling that there is at least something. i cannot say that this feeling of belief regardless of whether or not i want it is there because god put it in me or because it was the society i was born into... but there is something there that no matter how much i satisfyingly find a logical conclusion that god does not exist or that i dont know if he does but it does not matter... still that is there nagging at me so i must say regardless of the fact that i do not think of myself as a believer somewhere in my heart i am... i just cant seem to get rid of it no matter how much i try. i dont know if this is making sense to anyone. but my husband grew up from his childhood being raised in a family that believed god did not exist. he was always offered the choice to believe as he wanted... but that was the normal thing for him to believe. that was the reality he grew up with.... but even he questioned it... and today even he.. who grew up with a father who read him philosophy books as a child and who won chest tournaments as a child and who i have to say is the smartest person i have ever met in my life with such an amazing way of looking at everything... even today does not pretend to be able to disprove the existance of god. there is no reason for him to have any desire for god in his life because of the way he was brought up.... but there are times i notice... that he shows hints of a desire to believe. even his father who had studied to become a priest as a teenager, then became a nonbeliever and studied philosophy for 20 years in college, came to me not so long ago ... this man has such a complex mind sometimes i am amazed. and asked me again... if i believed in life after death or God.... this man who believes all logic says no god does not exist... this man who has studied philosophy for years... knows that even he cannot disprove the existance of god. noone can.. and noone can prove it. believers are not stupid and nonbelievers are not either. this is a question that has bothered probably every man who has walked the face of the earth... we just want to know what else is there? whats my purpose? whats the damn point anyway? we are just not smart enough yet , if we ever will be as a human race, to comprehend such things. there is just too much. choosing to believe something is a risky thing... but can be a beautiful thing too.. there is nothing wrong with having hope. but that is talking about belief itsself and not religion which is a whole different ballgame and can get dangerous if not practiced with a level head. maybe we will know when we die, or not know because we are dead and our souls do not live on which is the truth being displayed to us we are just not alive to understand it... or maybe we will die and have life after and still not know hahahahah isnt it all cruel? anyway, to all of you who have honestly considered that you cannot know for sure and not just taken for granted that what mom and dad told you about your religion is the truth no buts about it..... and still chosen to believe, i completely respect that. and for those of you who have truly considered different beliefs and still chosen not too i respect that too. and for those like me still hoping that some big sign will drop down in front of our faces saying... THIS IS IT!!!!!THIS IS WHAT YOU HAVE WANTED TO KNOW FOR SO LONG!!!!!!! even though you know that thats not gonna happen, good luck keeping your sanity. lets all have a little more respect for others beliefs ... if not necessarily the religions themselves and all the shit that sometimes goes with it.... we all know that every one of us wonders about this at some point. does anyone really have THE ANSWER? no .. not the answer for everyone. some people may have AN answer... which will do for them.. but dont force it on others. we are all just trying to get by and grow and find out what we can.

[Stalkz]

Aaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahah this thread owns.

[themnax]

whatever christ, m'hmmmmid, moses, buddah or baha'u'llah (or any of the rest of them) may or may not have been,
the same unknowable they all rightfully and honestly claimed to have channeled
(or attempted to explain, as neither buddah nor lao tsu claimed to
have channeled anything, only to have made an honest effort to objectively
observe)
was neither male, female, black, white nor unique to our one little dustspeck of a world in all the great vast infinte universe that surrounds us.

to deny that all of the knowledge known collectively by our species
is surrounded by more delightful straingeness then we could ever
begin to immagine is to deny the very core of our own being.

but to split hairs over what our speculations might have had for breakfast, is the utter depth of infantile inanity.

=^^=
.../\...

[Diamond Gord]

I would like to express my views on the question of athiests ability to be good.
I think that all humans are selfish. This is because our driving instict is survival and whether conciously or sub-conciously all our actions have our own interest at their root.
This does not mean that a person will do as they wish regardless of the concequences as a persons actions will usually have some effect on that person.
It is my opinion that people are a sum of their experiences and that if everyone around me had positive experiences then their behaviour would be more positive towards me which would make my life an easier and less risky one therefore increasing my chances of survival.
So by being good to those around me I am increasing my chances of survival.
I suggest that we are "good" because, ultimately and regardless of how we dress it up, it benefits ourselves.

[ImmortalDissident]

Yeah so I'm a little late on the bandwagon but...

HOLY SHIT FUCK! How did a post in the Atheism Forum meant for humor and amusement, turn into the fucking gospel. Everyone, Athiest and Theist, preaches about religious tolerance but what people need to understand is that the only way tolerance is possible is to shut the fuck up and stop preaching to those who DON'T GIVE A SHIT!

You Christians want to know why us Athiests are so depressed and pissed off all the time? IT'S BECAUSE OF YOU! We get badgered with your bullshit on a constant basis and you don't even recognize it. I mean, we can't even listen to the president talk without being beaten with his jesus crap. We don't care what you have to say or that you love Jesus... you don't see us with Athiest fish on the back of our cars. And by the way, we don't need to see shirts that say, "Jesus Loves" or "Jesus is Alive" because you know what, THAT is ignorance at its finest.

The truth is that no one knows the truth. So believe what you want, but shut the fuck up in the mean time.

[Kharakov]

. in the beginning i was sad that he was not a christian because i had been taught that if he did not accept god he would go to hell... then somehow it struck me that god would be an idiot to send someone like that to hell.. he is such a good person. still all of the beliefs about good works not being what gets you into heaven but acceptance of god made me scared for him so i did try to pursuade a little without forcing it. God has a plan for every person. Some people are destined to find God much later in life, and hopefully they don;t have to go through the instruction of hell, or at least they have an easier time of it that some of us.


A good question to ask is: Why does God remain hidden (except to those who know and accept God). Answering this question would tell us allot about what is going on.

[Razorofoccam]

I'm reposting an earlier letter here
For it is VALID

Yes;.. Christianity is the butt of many a joke.

What jesus said was no joke. he spoke from the heart [of reason]
Religion however.

Speaks from self interest.
Organised religion exists to make sure it exists.
And any who get in the way are crushed.

Exactly the same as politics.
Organised religion IS politics.

That is why agnostics have a good chuckle over the validity of religion.
It is human politics..

And as such.. Has no 'objective' validity. [it exists as a structure of information,,interprteted by humans,,and no more]

Occam

[Razorofoccam]

perhaps your agnosticism "exists as a structure of information,,interprteted by humans,,and no more"
Karl

Correct.

Everything exists as a structure. [ordered by the rules of reality]
Without structure.
Our reality would not exist.
[current theory even has empty space as a structure]

Occams agnosticism is an information structure in his head.
A rational perspective on other information structures interpreted from
neural input.
The structure reason..Being the processs that results in the greatest accuracy to objective reality [structures of input] that humans know of at this time.

Occam

[T.S. Garp]

I would like to express my views on the question of athiests ability to be good.
I think that all humans are selfish. This is because our driving instict is survival and whether conciously or sub-conciously all our actions have our own interest at their root.
This does not mean that a person will do as they wish regardless of the concequences as a persons actions will usually have some effect on that person.
It is my opinion that people are a sum of their experiences and that if everyone around me had positive experiences then their behaviour would be more positive towards me which would make my life an easier and less risky one therefore increasing my chances of survival.
So by being good to those around me I am increasing my chances of survival.
I suggest that we are "good" because, ultimately and regardless of how we dress it up, it benefits ourselves.

Well said. Because we have, for this moment in our species' history, no significant natural evolutionary restraints on us, we are able to rise above our more selfish instincts. It is this ability that separated us from earlier parallel species, such as Neanderthals. What evolved into homo sapiens was the line of humans who could cooperate in order to be more successful. This cooperation allowed us to evolve a bigger brain through those interactions over time.

It is simply to our advantage to be "good" toward one another than to be "evil."

[T.S. Garp]

God has a plan for every person. Some people are destined to find God much later in life, and hopefully they don;t have to go through the instruction of hell, or at least they have an easier time of it that some of us.


A good question to ask is: Why does God remain hidden (except to those who know and accept God). Answering this question would tell us allot about what is going on.
How can God, simulataneously, have a plan and give us free will? It is mental gymnastics--a conscious intellectual decision to believe in God without anything approaching prrof. It is to accept that reason fails.

[Kharakov]

How can God, simulataneously, have a plan and give us free will? It is mental gymnastics- The concept of free will is where the mental gymnastics come in.

Definition #1 off of m-w.com-
1 : voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will> Works. God knows what you will pick and thus offers you choices that fit in with God's plan.
Definition #2 off of m-w.com-
2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention We can ignore the fact that the existence of the human is a prior cause to the choice being made. We can also ignore the fact that the existence of a choice is a necessary prior cause to choosing something.

This definition refers to the conjecture that humans make completely random decisions. Ok, lets see a logical, ordered, and valid argument for randomness (however, do not make the argument for randomness based upon reading this message, that would not be random and would indicate that this message was a prior cause to the argument).


-a conscious intellectual decision to believe in God Belief in God is a conscious intellectual decision because God takes care of you despite your disbelief (and/or your understanding of why you need to be treated the way you are).
without anything approaching prrof. Proof might scare the hell out of you. I have no ill will towards hamsters, but sometimes they are scared of me picking them up. I know that I should slowly introduce myself to 'new' hamsters so I do not unnecessarily torment them with the present of a huge human hand until they are ready. God knows the right time to show you that God exists, and will not do it without you being properly prepared (with knowledge from other people telling you that God is nice, loving, etc., you don't have to be afraid of God, even though God might think its funny that you are afraid of God). God even provides you with lots of stuff to amuse yourself with (the universe) while you are acclimated to God.

A lot of atheists aren't ready to meet God because they judge God as bad. If a hamster thinks humans are bad, it is not ready to be handled by humans. Maybe let the hamster sniff your hand every once in a while or something, until it gets used to you and you can pick it up without it spazzing. Some hamsters might not get used to humans, but they can't live in the wild, so you either have to kill them or take care of them without ever touching them (which is sorta sucky, but if you don't feel like killing something just because you know it can't handle your presence, you have to keep on taking care of it like your other hamsters). Of course, God will not pick up those who do not want to be picked up by God, however, it is probably no fun for God to eternally provide for a hamster that won't even let God pet it (however, if anyone knows how to get a hamster to want to be petted, God does).

[T.S. Garp]

The concept of free will is where the mental gymnastics come in.

Definition #1 off of m-w.com-
Works. God knows what you will pick and thus offers you choices that fit in with God's plan.
Definition #2 off of m-w.com-
We can ignore the fact that the existence of the human is a prior cause to the choice being made. We can also ignore the fact that the existence of a choice is a necessary prior cause to choosing something.

This definition refers to the conjecture that humans make completely random decisions. Ok, lets see a logical, ordered, and valid argument for randomness (however, do not make the argument for randomness based upon reading this message, that would not be random and would indicate that this message was a prior cause to the argument).


Belief in God is a conscious intellectual decision because God takes care of you despite your disbelief (and/or your understanding of why you need to be treated the way you are).
Proof might scare the hell out of you. I have no ill will towards hamsters, but sometimes they are scared of me picking them up. I know that I should slowly introduce myself to 'new' hamsters so I do not unnecessarily torment them with the present of a huge human hand until they are ready. God knows the right time to show you that God exists, and will not do it without you being properly prepared (with knowledge from other people telling you that God is nice, loving, etc., you don't have to be afraid of God, even though God might think its funny that you are afraid of God). God even provides you with lots of stuff to amuse yourself with (the universe) while you are acclimated to God.

A lot of atheists aren't ready to meet God because they judge God as bad. If a hamster thinks humans are bad, it is not ready to be handled by humans. Maybe let the hamster sniff your hand every once in a while or something, until it gets used to you and you can pick it up without it spazzing. Some hamsters might not get used to humans, but they can't live in the wild, so you either have to kill them or take care of them without ever touching them (which is sorta sucky, but if you don't feel like killing something just because you know it can't handle your presence, you have to keep on taking care of it like your other hamsters). Of course, God will not pick up those who do not want to be picked up by God, however, it is probably no fun for God to eternally provide for a hamster that won't even let God pet it (however, if anyone knows how to get a hamster to want to be petted, God does).
Now you are trying to have it both ways. If God is giving us the choices that He sees as fitting within a plan, there is still a limit on free will. People do indeed make decisions that are not logical, even if those decisions are affected by previous knowledge and experience. We are still completely free to make any decision we choose, regardless of how wrong, evil, or illogical anyone might think that decision might be.

You also argue that God takes care of everyone, even those who do not believe, but then go on to say that God will not pick up the "hamsters" (i.e. us) who do not want to be picked up.

Let me be clear about this: there is simply no logical proof for the existence of God. If there were, then any logical person would be capable of understanding that proof, and the need for faith would disappear. What you are talking about is simply fitting experiences to your need for proof, and then calling those experiences proof of the existence of God. It is not a matter of being scared by proof, since no such empirical proof exists.

I cannot speak for all atheists, but I don't think that it is a matter of thinking that God is bad, but only that there isn't one. It is the misapplication of God in the form of religion that has the potential to be "bad." One needs only to look at the zeal with which "believers" have persecuted non-believers over history.

The fundamental problem with accepting that God (or a god) gets involved with our day-to-day functions is that there is no rhyme or reason for how that happens. It is not based on prayer (or lack thereof), it is not based on piety or adherence to beliefs. By all accounts, "the hand of God" to which people refer is nothing more than giving credit to something unprovable whenever things go well, or saying that it is all part of a plan to make ourselves feel better when things go wrong. This is why I refer to belief as mental gymnastics--it fills the need to explain occurences that all humans have.

[Kharakov]

Now you are trying to have it both ways.Not at all. I have a deterministic view, however the 1st definition works fine. You make 'voluntary choices or decisions' every day. The fact that you do not have an infinite number of choices does not mean that you do not make a voluntary choice or decision. You pick the choice that looks best to you.

The second definition is incorrect (not logical and nonsensicle).

People do indeed make decisions that are not logical, even if those decisions are affected by previous knowledge and experience. We are still completely free to make any decision we choose, regardless of how wrong, evil, or illogical anyone might think that decision might be. Ok. I don't think I argued against this, as long as you mean 'completely' free
to choose among the existing choices that we have before us.

You also argue that God takes care of everyone, even those who do not believe, but then go on to say that God will not pick up the "hamsters" (i.e. us) who do not want to be picked up. God will not reveal God's presence to those that are fearful or unbelieving because it is not good for these people. I didn't put it straight before because I have hamsters on my mind and wanted to talk about them.

Let me be clear about this: there is simply no logical proof for the existence of God. The existence of something is proven by that somethings existence, nothing else proves it.

What you are talking about is simply fitting experiences to your need for proof, and then calling those experiences proof of the existence of God. Never argued to prove the existence of God to you. The proof is God. If God doesn't reveal God's existence to you, you don't have the proof. I can't prove it, I am not God.

I cannot speak for all atheists, but I don't think that it is a matter of thinking that God is bad, but only that there isn't one.Ok.

[T.S. Garp]

Kharakov

What you have asserted all along is that there is a God. You have stated that we may "choose to ignore that fact," but 'fact' implies proof. Saying that "God exists, therefore He exists," is circular reasoning. I am perfectly willing to accept that people have faith that God exists, but that does not necessarily make it so.

[Razorofoccam]

God will not reveal God's presence to those that are fearful or unbelieving because it is not good for these people.

Ok.
Kharakov [a different perspective...totally opinion. a hypothetical]

This is where you fall down.
You have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA what a god would do..or why..
Who gives you credentials to speak for god...?
Certainly not god.

You suggest that the fearfull and unbelieving are some subspecies of man...
YOU.. Are the fearfull and unbelieving...

Why..??
Your fear has driven you to believe a thing without ANY of the requirements of proof you would apply to real life..
You believe fire burns> why..it happened to you.
You believe occam exists> because you can MEET him.
You believe chechnya exists..Cause you can go there...bad move :)

Yet you believe a god exists .
By what 'REAL PHENOMENA' do you base this position...?
The bible? its a book ... not a fact.
Anything else?? no....

Your unbelief in our human skill to find answers has driven you from the only method that has found any...[answers]
Before reason was applied by man we were ANIMAL

Now occam does not say there is no god...
He says you and religion have no idea of what it may be.

That..is agnosticism

Agnostics are, by the criteria of the reason you reject.
[the same reason that allows you to type you opinion on a PC, and for us to read it]

The only 'religion' [theistic position]that connects with reality.
[reality being existent phenomena]

Occam

[Kharakov]

What you have asserted all along is that there is a God. You have stated that we may "choose to ignore that fact," but 'fact' implies proof. Fact implies existence in objective reality. Objective realities existence is something that either we except on faith or we are solipsists (as long as we are using logical reasoning). You have no absolute proof that anything exists besides you and your thoughts (you consider "objective reality" to be a thought if you lack faith in its existence).

Saying that "God exists, therefore He exists," Actually I said "God exists, therefore God exists", didn't imply a masculinity or femininity to God's existence. God is a little bit more than either, or the sum of the parts.
is circular reasoning.Yup. Complete the circle. Nice job. Existence sorta does that. If you refer to something that exists, and say it exists, pretty much a circle. Of course, this is not proof of existence of that something, as with the existence of anything other than our self, we have to except the existence of objective reality on faith.
I am perfectly willing to accept that people have faith that God exists, but that does not necessarily make it so. Exactly. Only God's existence makes it so.

[Kharakov]

This is where you fall down.
You have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA what a god would do..or why..Actually, if you look at the world around you, you can see what God does. In addition, I have many ideas about what God does and why God does it. These ideas can be incorrect, which is why I test them against what I have already learned, and what learning is gained (you have to retest your ideas if you gain additional information). Of course, without all the facts, what I say is conjecture- I am not God.

Who gives you credentials to speak for god...?
Certainly not god. Last time I looked, I had no diploma, credentials, or certificate saying that I could speak for God. All I have is what I have learned about God.

You suggest that the fearfull and unbelieving are some subspecies of man...I never said they were a subspecies of man.
YOU.. Are the fearfull and unbelieving... Unsubstantiated false claim, like your last.

Your fear has driven you to believe a thing without ANY of the requirements of proof you would apply to real life.. Another false claim. I require a degree of proof for everything that I believe.

Yet you believe a god exists .
By what 'REAL PHENOMENA' do you base this position...?My experiences of God.
The bible? its a book ... not a fact.
Anything else?? no....Another false claim. Read the statement above.

Your unbelief in our human skill to find answers has driven you from the only method that has found any...[answers] Before reason was applied by man we were ANIMAL Another unsubstantiated false claim. If I did not believe in the human skill to find answers (reason), I would not use it to find answers.

Now occam does not say there is no god...
He says you and religion have no idea of what it may be.Unsubstantiated claim.
That..is agnosticismWhich I argued for until I knew otherwise (agnosticism graduated to gnosticism).

Agnostics are, by the criteria of the reason you reject.I do not reject reason. I embrace it.
The only 'religion' [theistic position]that connects with reality.
[reality being existent phenomena]You cannot show that anything is not connected with reality. All positions exist in reality and influence it. Without faith in objective reality, we are limited to the knowledge that we (the individual) exists. Gnosticism takes the position that we can learn about objective reality through faith and reason. Agnosticism is limited to solipsism, the denial of the existence of anything besides the self. Cogito ergo sum is as far as agnosticism will take you. Faith that objective reality exists is the first step towards gnosis. Faith is required for true knowledge.

[T.S. Garp]

Fact implies existence in objective reality. Objective realities existence is something that either we except on faith or we are solipsists (as long as we are using logical reasoning). You have no absolute proof that anything exists besides you and your thoughts (you consider "objective reality" to be a thought if you lack faith in its existence).

Actually I said "God exists, therefore God exists", didn't imply a masculinity or femininity to God's existence. God is a little bit more than either, or the sum of the parts.
Yup. Complete the circle. Nice job. Existence sorta does that. If you refer to something that exists, and say it exists, pretty much a circle. Of course, this is not proof of existence of that something, as with the existence of anything other than our self, we have to except the existence of objective reality on faith.
Exactly. Only God's existence makes it so.
Hogwash. Circular reasoning is not an asset. A rock exists because anyone who comes in contact with it sense it in some way. There is no faith whatsoever involved. You are arguing the equivalent that when I cover my eyes and can no longer see you, you no longer exist; I must have "faith" that you still do.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to ascribe gender to God, it was just the use of a pronoun.

[Kharakov]

Hogwash. Circular reasoning is not an asset. But it is pretty funny. Especially when someone thinks your joke is an argument.
A rock exists because anyone who comes in contact with it sense it in some way. There is no faith whatsoever involved. Without faith you can only prove your own existence. To prove that you didn't make up the rest of the universe in your own mind you have to take the leap of faith that the universe actually exists outside of your own thoughts and imaginings about it. The fact is, most non-solipsists have a firm (if not unshakable) faith that the universe is objective reality outside of themselves, and have not relied purely upon logic to grasp this concept. You might call faith in objective reality ASSUMPTION NUMER0 UNO for all dealings between your mind and the universe.

How can you prove that all of this is not in your mind? You cannot. However, you already have faith that it is not. Reason fails without faith.

You are arguing the equivalent that when I cover my eyes and can no longer see you, you no longer exist; I must have "faith" that you still do Not what I was arguing.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to ascribe gender to God, it was just the use of a pronoun. Sure.

You know, you are ~19 years over the age limit of trust, and I am ~1.7 years below. I don't know if I believe that you believe what you are arguing.

[Razorofoccam]

Kharakov

1. To look at reality with the eyes of human reason DOES NOT say there IS a god.
Is indicates such.
Indications are not fact.
The organisation MAY not be a result of direction.

Reason cannot say there is a god because reality shows indications of rational
organisation....
All it can say is 'there may be'' [agnosticism]

2.And what have you learned about god?
Please..SHOW occam the phenomena that taught you something about god...

3.You say you have experience of god...
Then that experience must have come from outside of you...
a phenomena.
Or..do you speak of purely subjective experience. Occam has those when he goes to sleep.

4. Your agnosticism turned to gnosticism from what real experience...?
Show occam the phenomena that resulted in this experience.

5. Your last statement is false..

Gnosticism does not say we can learn about reality through faith and reason
It says there is a god,, And reason will be bent to that belief...desire.

Agnosticism has nothing to do with solipsism...
Solipsism is the belief that all reality is an subjective one...
Reality exists as a different thing in the heads of every human...and nothing else is real..A logical contradiction.
For an individual to exist.. a reality must exist outside of it to support that existance

Agnosticism is this............

We do not have the data to define or explain a god...wether it exists or not or its methods. There is no real phenomena besides indicative in the rational process to indicate there is a god.
Agnosticism is nothing but humans saying "i dont know"

If you are not able to say i dont know...Then this is psychosis is it not?

For humans know only one thing absolutely...and that is nothing to do with god.

Faith that reality exists is not required...
For as occam exists ...cogito ergo sum...
Then Reality MUST exist to underpin his personal logical existance...

There must be a reality for occams reason [cogito ergo] to exist IN

Faith is not required..
Occam has amended the classic 'cogito ergo' with this.

I reason therefore i exist
And thus..
A reality exists...
To support the existance of reason...
[for reason cannot exist without 'a' reality to exist IN.]

This cannot be shown to be incorrect.
And occam asks why no-one has proposed it before..it is almost intuative

Occam

[Granolahead]

One more time.........Too funny!

[QUOTE=Mui]http://www.geocities.com/darwin_copernicus/jpgs/a1christ.jpg

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/1480/jesussaves2.gif

[/QUOTE (http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GeorgeCarlin.txt[/QUOTE)]

[IdentityCrisis]

That's hillarious.

I heard the most precious thing from my friend's little sister. Everyone was watching a movie and she was snuggled up with me on a fold-out chair and I was reading a book to her about opossums and out of nowhere, she said, "Jessie?" and I replied, "Yeah?" to which she went on, "I don't believe in Satan," as she shook her head with these big innocent bulgey eyes.

"Good" I said.

Then she fell asleep.

hahaha. It was soo funny.. yet weird. I'm glad she's not all brainwashed by her neocon friends. The town is one big pile of evangelical conservatives.

[Razorofoccam]

That's hillarious.

I heard the most precious thing from my friend's little sister. Everyone was watching a movie and she was snuggled up with me on a fold-out chair and I was reading a book to her about opossums and out of nowhere, she said, "Jessie?" and I replied, "Yeah?" to which she went on, "I don't believe in Satan," as she shook her head with these big innocent bulgey eyes.

"Good" I said.

Then she fell asleep.

hahaha. It was soo funny.. yet weird. I'm glad she's not all brainwashed by her neocon friends. The town is one big pile of evangelical conservatives.

Identinty crisis

You friends little sister is wiser than 95% of humanity...
SHE ..should be a prophet...But occam wishes no such media attention on any human but the most evil
And she definitely is not....


Occam

[Kharakov]

Reason cannot say there is a god because reality shows indications of rational
organisation....
All it can say is 'there may be'' [agnosticism]Reason doesn't 'say' anything. Reason is simply the focus of the mind.

Please..SHOW occam the phenomena that taught you something about god...If I was God, I would.

3.You say you have experience of god...
Then that experience must have come from outside of you...
a phenomena.yup.
Or..do you speak of purely subjective experience. Occam has those when he goes to sleep. All experience is subjective unless we have faith that it comes from objective reality.
4. Your agnosticism turned to gnosticism from what real experience...?
Show occam the phenomena that resulted in this experience. Until similar experiences happen to you, you will not understand from me explaining them.
Gnosticism does not say we can learn about reality through faith and reason
It says there is a god,, And reason will be bent to that belief...desire.Sorry, I didn't mean gnosticism in that manner. Simply refer to the roots- gnostic means known/knowable; agnostic means unknown/ unknowable (from greek roots), so as the agnostic view states God is unknowable, the Gnostic view states God is knowable (which is all that I meant, not that crazy ass gnostic religion which may be very entertaining).

Agnosticism has nothing to do with solipsism...
Solipsism is the belief that all reality is an subjective one...Solipsism is the belief that nothing exists besides the self. You are completely alone. The latin roots of the word are Solus (alone) and ipse (self).

Agnosticism is nothing but humans saying "i dont know"I am saying, learning about God is possible as learning how to integrate sin x.

Faith that reality exists is not required...
For as occam exists ...cogito ergo sum...
Then Reality MUST exist to underpin his personal logical existance
There must be a reality for occams reason [cogito ergo] to exist IN You have faith that reality exists outside of your own mind.

I reason therefore i exist
And thus..
A reality exists...
To support the existance of reason...
[for reason cannot exist without 'a' reality to exist IN.]Unless that reality is your mind, in which case reality exists within and is part of your mind (your mind does not exist within reality, reality is your mind). This is the only thing you can logically draw from 'I think therefore I am'. Your faithfulness to the existence of a reality outside of your own mind is strong.

This cannot be shown to be incorrect. Just because you have faith that something exists outside of your own mind does not mean that it does. Your faith (in an outside reality) is the foundation of your reasoning.

example-

You expect yourself not to know everything (about 'reality') so you think things will happen for which you do not have knowledge of- these things could be creations of your own mind.

You think 'I do not know everything about X' and X is a creation of your mind with the idea that there are things that you can learn about X in the future. So you come up with ideas about X and decide whether they are wrong or right. You believe that someone will come along and tell you that you are wrong or right about X and your mind creates that someone that tells you about X. Because you think in language X you assume that there must be others that think in language Y that corresponds to similar experiences to yours. Thus new languages are born. You do not believe you speak all of them, so you do not understand some of them, but you do believe that when you hear the language spoken that there is a mind guiding it (outside of your own). You keep on believing these things without the absolute knowledge that they are anything other than creations of your own mind. You call this set of things 'reality', and say that it exists outside of your mind.

If you are intellectually honest, you must acknowledge that 'reality' could be a creation of your own mind. This is were faith comes in- faith in a greater reality outside of yourself. Without faith, 'I think, therefore I am' is the limit to logical reasoning (the mind can only know that it (the mind) exists).

[T.S. Garp]

Actually, if you look at the world around you, you can see what God does. In addition, I have many ideas about what God does and why God does it. These ideas can be incorrect, which is why I test them against what I have already learned, and what learning is gained (you have to retest your ideas if you gain additional information). Of course, without all the facts, what I say is conjecture- I am not God.

Last time I looked, I had no diploma, credentials, or certificate saying that I could speak for God. All I have is what I have learned about God.

I never said they were a subspecies of man.
Unsubstantiated false claim, like your last.

Another false claim. I require a degree of proof for everything that I believe.

My experiences of God.
Another false claim. Read the statement above.

Another unsubstantiated false claim. If I did not believe in the human skill to find answers (reason), I would not use it to find answers.

Unsubstantiated claim.
Which I argued for until I knew otherwise (agnosticism graduated to gnosticism).

I do not reject reason. I embrace it.
You cannot show that anything is not connected with reality. All positions exist in reality and influence it. Without faith in objective reality, we are limited to the knowledge that we (the individual) exists. Gnosticism takes the position that we can learn about objective reality through faith and reason. Agnosticism is limited to solipsism, the denial of the existence of anything besides the self. Cogito ergo sum is as far as agnosticism will take you. Faith that objective reality exists is the first step towards gnosis. Faith is required for true knowledge.
You continue to state that what you know comes from God, which is, for the nth time, unprovable. Saying that it is so does not make it so. If you embraced reason, you would be able to admit that faith in God is not based on it.

The problem with much of your reasoning is that you are talking about reality that can be demonstrated empirically and trying to say that it is subjective. There is simply no empirical test for faith in God. You cannot continue to claim to embrace reason and believe that "because I believe so" suffices as proof. Proof does not come in degrees and there is no element of proof involved in faith. If there were, on what basis could I disagree with you?

The Bible is no more of a proof than your statements. "X is true, therefore X is true" is a basic logical fallacy.

I do not deny that you believe what you believe, just don't confuse faith with proof.

[Kharakov]

You continue to state that what you know comes from God, which is, for the nth time, unprovable. I am not trying to prove it through argument. It is a statement of fact. Whether or not you except this as true indicates whether or not you understand that everything comes from God (including people who do not grasp this very basic concept).

If you embraced reason, you would be able to admit that faith in God is not based on it. But it is confirmed by it.

The problem with much of your reasoning is that you are talking about reality that can be demonstrated empirically and trying to say that it is subjective.I have never said this. I have been arguing for the objective existence of reality based upon faith in its (objective realities) existence.
There is simply no empirical test for faith in God. It would be foolish to believe in something for which there is no evidence. I except the scientific communities revelations about the natural world based upon my own subjective experience of the veracity of their claims. Likewise, I accept God's existence based upon God showing me that God exists.

You cannot continue to claim to embrace reason and believe that "because I believe so" suffices as proof.Of course not.

Proof does not come in degrees and there is no element of proof involved in faith.Well, there is the element of having your faith in God justified. Continued faith in God without justification (by God) would be pretty pointless.

The Bible is no more of a proof than your statements. It's just part of the proof. The proof is the whole proof, not simply a part.

"X is true, therefore X is true" is a basic logical fallacy.Yup. I know this. When arguing in a forum where you assume people have an understanding of logic, you sometimes make a funny. 'God exists, therefore God exists' is an example of logical humor. You just didn't get it, did you? :p

I do not deny that you believe what you believe, just don't confuse faith with proof.I never did. Faith in something can be justified by that something. Afterwords, faith takes on a new dimension, more along the lines of confidence.

[Shane99X]

Likewise, I accept God's existence based upon God showing me that God exists.


I doubt that holds any merit in this type of discussion.

paraphrased: "I know that God exists because he tells me that he does."

In other words faith.

Faith tells you to believe no matter what, even if all the evidence suggests otherwise....

[Kharakov]

paraphrased: "I know that God exists because he tells me that he does." Do you understand the difference between telling someone something and showing them something (with evidence to back up your claim)? Logically, you cannot accurately paraphrase the statement 'X showed me Y' with 'X told me Y', the statements mean entirely different things.

Faith tells you to believe no matter what, even if all the evidence suggests otherwise....I wasn't aware that faith speaks. In addition, I'd say that faith is something that some individuals are limited too based upon their lack of ability/desire to understand and/or come to terms with God. These individuals are limited to an existence of lesser understanding, however, it is not necessarily a worse existence (it may be an easier existence, which could explain why faith is stressed more than understanding). Faith in God is a much simpler way of life than trying to check the path of every strange quark to make sure things are going to be ok.

[Razorofoccam]

[QUOTE=Kharakov]Reason doesn't 'say' anything. Reason is simply the focus of the mind.

If I was God, I would.

yup.
All experience is subjective unless we have faith that it comes from objective reality.
Until similar experiences happen to you, you will not understand from me explaining them.
Sorry, I didn't mean gnosticism in that manner. Simply refer to the roots- gnostic means known/knowable; agnostic means unknown/ unknowable (from greek roots), so as the agnostic view states God is unknowable, the Gnostic view states God is knowable (which is all that I meant, not that crazy ass gnostic religion which may be very entertaining).

Solipsism is the belief that nothing exists besides the self. You are completely alone. The latin roots of the word are Solus (alone) and ipse (self).

I am saying, learning about God is possible as learning how to integrate sin x.

You have faith that reality exists outside of your own mind.

Unless that reality is your mind, in which case reality exists within and is part of your mind (your mind does not exist within reality, reality is your mind). This is the only thing you can logically draw from 'I think therefore I am'. Your faithfulness to the existence of a reality outside of your own mind is strong.

Just because you have faith that something exists outside of your own mind does not mean that it does. Your faith (in an outside reality) is the foundation of your reasoning.

example-

You expect yourself not to know everything (about 'reality') so you think things will happen for which you do not have knowledge of- these things could be creations of your own mind.

You think 'I do not know everything about X' and X is a creation of your mind with the idea that there are things that you can learn about X in the future. So you come up with ideas about X and decide whether they are wrong or right. You believe that someone will come along and tell you that you are wrong or right about X and your mind creates that someone that tells you about X. Because you think in language X you assume that there must be others that think in language Y that corresponds to similar experiences to yours. Thus new languages are born. You do not believe you speak all of them, so you do not understand some of them, but you do believe that when you hear the language spoken that there is a mind guiding it (outside of your own). You keep on believing these things without the absolute knowledge that they are anything other than creations of your own mind. You call this set of things 'reality', and say that it exists outside of your mind.

If you are intellectually honest, you must acknowledge that 'reality' could be a creation of your own mind. This is were faith comes in- faith in a greater reality outside of yourself. Without faith, 'I think, therefore I am' is the limit to logical reasoning (the mind can only know that it (the mind) exists).[/QUOTE



Incorrect

You say

":JUST BECAUSE you have faith that SOMETHING EXISTS OUTSIDE YOUR OWN MIND, Does not mean it does"

Thus ALL RELIGION comes under that proviso.
Occam philosophy is open

Yours is closed by dogma.

Occam

[BlackGuardXIII]

Identinty crisis

You friends little sister is wiser than 95% of humanity...
SHE ..should be a prophet...But occam wishes no such media attention on any human but the most evil
And she definitely is not....


OccamI also share your views here. I decided that I did not believe in the Devil, Lucifer, Satan, Old Nick, whatever his name is, when I was eleven. Ever since then, I have dared 'him', to show himself to me, face to face. I have taunted and insulted and berated him to no avail. If he does exist, he is not one to answer to my challenge. I used to, but no longer do, call him out when in the presence of Christian friends, who would become very nervous and admonish me and warn me to stop. I could see fear in their eyes.
I believe that if we trust our hearts and try to be as loving as we can imagine, the fears we have will shrink, and our self esteem will blossom. Then, even if old cranky pants exists, he can't touch us.
And maybe we could send the papparrazzi to his place.

[BlackGuardXIII]

I doubt that holds any merit in this type of discussion.

paraphrased: "I know that God exists because he tells me that he does."

In other words faith.

Faith tells you to believe no matter what, even if all the evidence suggests otherwise....
It may appear to be faith to you, Shane, but it is reality to Kharakov. I believe it is truth, not my truth, but valid and real truth nonetheless. Just because I have not experienced it, is no reason for me to dismiss it. I have seen some pretty amazing stuff myself, and though others might call my experiences 'beliefs', they are far more than that to me, they are truths and reality to me.

[BlackGuardXIII]

[QUOTE=Kharakov]Reason doesn't 'say' anything. Reason is simply the focus of the mind.

If I was God, I would.

yup.
All experience is subjective unless we have faith that it comes from objective reality.
Until similar experiences happen to you, you will not understand from me explaining them.
Sorry, I didn't mean gnosticism in that manner. Simply refer to the roots- gnostic means known/knowable; agnostic means unknown/ unknowable (from greek roots), so as the agnostic view states God is unknowable, the Gnostic view states God is knowable (which is all that I meant, not that crazy ass gnostic religion which may be very entertaining).

Solipsism is the belief that nothing exists besides the self. You are completely alone. The latin roots of the word are Solus (alone) and ipse (self).

I am saying, learning about God is possible as learning how to integrate sin x.

You have faith that reality exists outside of your own mind.

Unless that reality is your mind, in which case reality exists within and is part of your mind (your mind does not exist within reality, reality is your mind). This is the only thing you can logically draw from 'I think therefore I am'. Your faithfulness to the existence of a reality outside of your own mind is strong.

Just because you have faith that something exists outside of your own mind does not mean that it does. Your faith (in an outside reality) is the foundation of your reasoning.

example-

You expect yourself not to know everything (about 'reality') so you think things will happen for which you do not have knowledge of- these things could be creations of your own mind.

You think 'I do not know everything about X' and X is a creation of your mind with the idea that there are things that you can learn about X in the future. So you come up with ideas about X and decide whether they are wrong or right. You believe that someone will come along and tell you that you are wrong or right about X and your mind creates that someone that tells you about X. Because you think in language X you assume that there must be others that think in language Y that corresponds to similar experiences to yours. Thus new languages are born. You do not believe you speak all of them, so you do not understand some of them, but you do believe that when you hear the language spoken that there is a mind guiding it (outside of your own). You keep on believing these things without the absolute knowledge that they are anything other than creations of your own mind. You call this set of things 'reality', and say that it exists outside of your mind.

If you are intellectually honest, you must acknowledge that 'reality' could be a creation of your own mind. This is were faith comes in- faith in a greater reality outside of yourself. Without faith, 'I think, therefore I am' is the limit to logical reasoning (the mind can only know that it (the mind) exists).[/QUOTE



Incorrect

You say

":JUST BECAUSE you have faith that SOMETHING EXISTS OUTSIDE YOUR OWN MIND, Does not mean it does"

Thus ALL RELIGION comes under that proviso.
Occam philosophy is open

Yours is closed by dogma.

Occam
Thank you, Occam, the idea of all of reality existing within my own mind is one explanation of my precognitive dreams that I had forgotten.
I try to keep an open mind, and have been accused of being naive, which I may be, but that is the price I pay for believing the best about people. I would rather believe their related experiences than automatically dismiss them like so many skeptics do. Rudyard Kipling once said, " I prefer to believe the best about everyone, it saves so much time."

[Shane99X]

It may appear to be faith to you, Shane, but it is reality to Kharakov. I believe it is truth, not my truth, but valid and real truth nonetheless. Just because I have not experienced it, is no reason for me to dismiss it. I have seen some pretty amazing stuff myself, and though others might call my experiences 'beliefs', they are far more than that to me, they are truths and reality to me.
For "truth" to be so subjective rapes the meaning of the word.

"Human beings require sleep to survive."

This a truth, anything saying opposite is false.

How can this be true for one, but not for all?

[BlackGuardXIII]

For "truth" to be so subjective rapes the meaning of the word.

"Human beings require sleep to survive."

This a truth, anything saying opposite is false.

How can this be true for one, but not for all?
How can you ever know what I experience? One thing I believe is true for all is that none of us can know another persons reality.
There are people who don't sleep, I guess you have not heard that. I know a man who sleeps 2 hours a night.
truth is just like anything, it is subjective in the sense that no one can ever be totally objective.

[Shane99X]

How can you ever know what I experience? One thing I believe is true for all is that none of us can know another persons reality.
There are people who don't sleep, I guess you have not heard that. I know a man who sleeps 2 hours a night.
truth is just like anything, it is subjective in the sense that no one can ever be totally objective.
2 hours a night is still sleep...

When speaking of the senses, perception of a truth is subjective there is no doubt about that.

But that does not change that things are or they are not.

Either blue is blue or it is another color.

Your perception of blue might make it seem more yellow or red than another's perception, but how does your perception actually change the nature blue which is an objective reality?

[BlackGuardXIII]

2 hours a night is still sleep...

When speaking of the senses, perception of a truth is subjective there is no doubt about that.

But that does not change that things are or they are not.

Either blue is blue or it is another color.

Your perception of blue might make it seem more yellow or red than another's perception, but how does your perception actually change the nature blue which is an objective reality?
I have read of cases of people who do not sleep at all.
Who is to say what is and what is not? I could say something that is as true to me as the sun rising in the east, and you might scoff, and not believe me.
For example, I have had half a dozen precognitive dreams, not deja vu, not premontions, but exact pictures of the future weeks, and sometimes years in advance. That is true as can be to me, is it to you?
How could I possible prove it to you, I could not.
That is my point, just cuz something is true for you does not make it true for me. this is logical, since you are not here and i am not there, I expect us to have different realities.

I can never know if the blue you see isn't what I call red, can I?
And what of angels, or astral travel, I believe in them, and for some they are truths cuz they say they have experienced them, and I cannot prove them wrong, and can see no reason for them to lie. Do they just like being mocked?
I think not.

[Shane99X]

I have read of cases of people who do not sleep at all.
Who is to say what is and what is not? I could say something that is as true to me as the sun rising in the east, and you might scoff, and not believe me.
For example, I have had half a dozen precognitive dreams, not deja vu, not premontions, but exact pictures of the future weeks, and sometimes years in advance. That is true as can be to me, is it to you?
How could I possible prove it to you, I could not.
That is my point, just cuz something is true for you does not make it true for me. this is logical, since you are not here and i am not there, I expect us to have different realities.

I can never know if the blue you see isn't what I call red, can I?
And what of angels, or astral travel, I believe in them, and for some they are truths cuz they say they have experienced them, and I cannot prove them wrong, and can see no reason for them to lie. Do they just like being mocked?
I think not.In these instances (precognition, astral travel, ect.) you could be wrong, i could be wrong, we both could be wrong due to our limited perception, but we cannot both be right.

You can say blue is red and I respond by saying blue is green. We'd both be wrong but neither of us right, for if blue were red or green one of us would be stating a truth and the other a false..

"It's truth for them..."

Whether they belive it to be true does not affect whether it is in fact true.

Take the statement: Water can be a liquid, solid, or gas.

You can take this statement and believe that none, some, or all of it is true. Yet your belief is still "yours", holding no bearing on the objective truth.

To believe that truth is subjective to your sences is slippery logic.

If the truth of reality is subject to our sences then for what reason do I have to question them? If I and 99% of the world percieve blue to be blue for what reason do I have to belive that to 1% blue is red? Our senses serve to define the objective world around us, if our sences can't be trusted there is no basis for "reality" at all.

[BlackGuardXIII]

In these instances (precognition, astral travel, ect.) you could be wrong, i could be wrong, we both could be wrong due to our limited perception, but we cannot both be right.

You can say blue is red and I respond by saying blue is green. We'd both be wrong but neither of us right, for if blue were red or green one of us would be stating a truth and the other a false..

"It's truth for them..."

Whether they belive it to be true does not affect whether it is in fact true.

Take the statement: Water can be a liquid, solid, or gas.

You can take this statement and believe that none, some, or all of it is true. Yet your belief is still "yours", holding no bearing on the objective truth.

To believe that truth is subjective to your sences is slippery logic.

If the truth of reality is subject to our sences then for what reason do I have to question them? If I and 99% of the world percieve blue to be blue for what reason do I have to belive that to 1% blue is red? Our senses serve to define the objective world around us, if our sences can't be trusted there is no basis for "reality" at all.i say we can both be right.

objectivity is an unattainable absolute, so it is a moot point to me.

As for others and their experiences I can only say I believe them. For my own experiences, the precognitive dreams, you either believe me or not, and it does not matter to me either way. They happened, and so for me, it is not a case of right or wrong, but becomes one of am I lying, delusional, or telling you the truth? You must choose which one you are most comfortable with, I cannot choose for they happened to me. I have had many dreams, and have never been able to tell which ones would later materialize. Very few have, but those ones were as exact as a movie or photograph, and came to pass a significant amount of time later. It is inexplicable to me, that is why I do not expect or require anyone to tell me they believe me, though it has been nice when others have, since it is so illogical.

[Shane99X]

i say we can both be right.

objectivity is an unattainable absolute, so it is a moot point to me.
How so?

If you flip a coin in the air 1,000,000,000,000 times while standing in a cornfield gravity will cause it to fall back down to the earth 1,000,000,000,000 times.

This is not unattainable.

One person can say that out of those 1,000,000,000,000 times gravity failed to work twice. Does his belief shape the reality of what did happen?

Are insane men living in a valid alternate reality or do they view an objective reality with false perceptions?

But then again, what if we are all insane and none of us view reality the same? Does that in itself change or reshape what reality is?

[Shane99X]

i say we can both be right.

objectivity is an unattainable absolute, so it is a moot point to me.

As for others and their experiences I can only say I believe them. For my own experiences, the precognitive dreams, you either believe me or not, and it does not matter to me either way. They happened, and so for me, it is not a case of right or wrong, but becomes one of am I lying, delusional, or telling you the truth? You must choose which one you are most comfortable with, I cannot choose for they happened to me. I have had many dreams, and have never been able to tell which ones would later materialize. Very few have, but those ones were as exact as a movie or photograph, and came to pass a significant amount of time later. It is inexplicable to me, that is why I do not expect or require anyone to tell me they believe me, though it has been nice when others have, since it is so illogical.
You could be wrong and I right.
You could be right and I wrong.
We could both be mistaken.
We cannot both be stating contradicting truths.

[BlackGuardXIII]

You could be wrong and I right.
You could be right and I wrong.
We could both be mistaken.
We cannot both be stating contradicting truths.
you are there
i am here
we are different people
in different places
living different lives
how can our realities possibly be the same?
they must be different, so must our truths.
I repeat, we can differ, and due to the above, both be right.

[Shane99X]

you are there
i am here
we are different people
in different places
living different lives
how can our realities possibly be the same?
they must be different, so must our truths.
I repeat, we can differ, and due to the above, both be right.I can live in London while you live in Bangkok, yet we are both subject to the physical laws of the universe.

Many different perceptions of a reality doesn't change that reality.

You believe to have had precognitive dreams and i have no reason to doubt that you have.

But, the fact that there exists the possiblity that you are lying or delusional says in itself that there exists truth and fiction, real and unreal.

Therefore what you are stating could be truth or it could be false, but it cannot be both.