Is the Trinity a Pagan Tradition?

[Gravity]

Is the Trinity Pagan Tradition? Multiple enities, and even in the torah there isn't any mention of it.

[BlackBillBlake]

Is the Trinity Pagan Tradition? Multiple enities, and even in the torah there isn't any mention of it.
The idea is there in the Kabbala - the esoteric Jewish mystical system. Maybe it comes from there.
Also many other traditions have various trinities - Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva in Hinduism for example.

But actually, the trinty in Christianity doesn't really represent multiple entities - all three are said to be one.

[malakala]

Maiden, Mother, Crone....That's a pagan concept of trinity.

[Meagain]

The concept of the trinity was adopted into Christianity at the Council of Nicea in 325.

Such mysteries as the Trinity....were all extent in the mysteries of Amenta... Churchward The Trinity in Unity, rejected by Moses, became afterwards the foundation of Christian theology, which incontestably aquired it from India. Jacolliot(Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva)
Quetzalcoatl...was often represented as a trinity signified by three crosses... Walker From the earliest ages, the concept of the Great Goddess was a trinity and the model for all subsequent trinities, femal, male, or mixed...Tantric sciptures insisted that the Triple Goddess had created these gods in the first place...The middle east had many trinities...The usual pattern was Father-Mother-Son...Among Arabian Christians there was apparently a holy trinity of God, Mary, and Jesus... Walker "All things were made by One godhead in three names, and that this god is all things"; thus Orpheus is a pre-christian advocate of the trinity....Walker The first Druids...adored the Trinity under the names of Isis or Hesus, the supreme Harmony; of Belen or Bel, which in Assyrian means Lord, a name corresponding to that of Adonai... Pike...All of this comes from The Christ Conspiracy by Acharya S.

[sandpedlar]

And yet "In the beggining"
God said let US make man in OUR image. "Elohim" used here, is a plural noun(such as family, board, or commitee, etc) that always takes a singular verb.
When God visited Abram, He did so in the form of three men. That's pretty consistent with the trinity concept.
The idea is that there is one God, made of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The triune God upholds that concept, as again, there is one "family", made up of mother, father and daughter.

[themnax]

many celtic dieties were trinities, and it was only after roman contact with celtic cultures that the trinity explanation was adopted.

at any rate yes, the trinity concept is 'pagan' in origen.

=^^=
.../\..

[BlackBillBlake]

The idea is that there is one God, made of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The triune God upholds that concept, as again, there is one "family", made up of mother, father and daughter.
Pity they left the Mother out of the Christian trinity.

[Burbot]

But actually, the trinty in Christianity doesn't really represent multiple entities - all three are said to be one.
Yeah, of all the analogies for the Trinity I've heard, this is the best:

You have a hockey team (with 3 members :p). One is the Father, one the Son, one the Holy Spirit and the team is God. Each of them is seperate, but if one of them left, the wholeness of God is broken. God isn't a physical thing, it is a connection that binds 3 distinct indivisable persons.

And remembr BBB, depending on who you are, the mother is highly revered moreso that any other non-divine person. So much so that many think you worship her.

[BlackBillBlake]

And remembr BBB, depending on who you are, the mother is highly revered moreso that any other non-divine person. So much so that many think you worship her.
:) I rather like Mary, the Mother of God.
But also Burbot - have you heard of Julian of Norwich, 14th c. english mystic? She wrote a book about 'The Motherhood of God', in which she says that Jesus too is our Mother.

[Burbot]

No I havn't. I am going to do a wikipedia and google seach right now.

[BlackBillBlake]

:) .

[Burbot]

I really liked what I found, but my only problem with arguing that God is more maternal is that maternal/paternal duties and actions are dictated by our culture...

That being said though, I really liked it and I just might have to look for some boooks when I get back to the campus library in the fall...

[catstevens]

Hi Gravity :)

Is the Trinity Pagan Tradition? Multiple enities, and even in the torah there isn't any mention of it.
Yes (Trinity) is an ancient pagan worship
The following is by: Misha'al ibn Abdullah Source (http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/ch3.1.html):

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"Trinity" and it's roots in ancient pagan worship. The "Trinity" of Christendom, as defined in the creed of Nicea, is a merging of three distinct entities into one single entity, while remaining three distinct entities. We are told to speak of the three gods as one god, and never as three gods which

Would be considered heresy (Isaiah_43:10) (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2043:10&version=31). They are considered to be co-eternal, co-substantial, and co-equal. However, only the first was self existent. The others preceded from the first.

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This Neo-Platonic philosophical doctrine has it's roots not in the inspiration of God, but in ancient paganism. Most ancient religions were built upon some sort of threefold distinction. Deities were always trinities of some kind or consisted of successive emanation in threes.

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In India we find the doctrine of the divine trinity called "Tri-murti" (Three-forms) consisting of Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva. It is an inseparable unity though three in form. Worshipers are told to worship them as one deity. Such concepts posed no problem to the logic of a Hindu worshipper since they were already used to worshipping gods with the body of a man and the head of an elephant(Ganesh), or monkey-faced gods (Hanuman), or gods with six arms, and so forth. Remember, classical Hinduism dates back to at least 500BC, with roots extending as far back as 2000BC.

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The Brahmas also have their trinity. In their trinity, Vajrapani, Manjusri, and Avalokitesvara form a divine union of three gods into one god called "Buddha." The citizens of China and Japan also worship Buddha, but they know him as "Fo." When they worship him they say "Fo, is one god but has three forms."

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***Sir William Jones says: "Very respectable natives have assured me, that one or two missionaries have been absurd enough to in their zeal for the conversion of the Gentiles, to urge that the Hindoos were even now almost Christians; because their Brahma, Vishnu, and Mahesa (Siva), were no other than the Christian Trinity." Bible myths and their parallels in other religions, p. 370.

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The ancient Egyptians also worshipped a trinity. Their symbol of a wing, a globe, and a serpent is supposed to have stood for the different attributes of their god.
I continue in other post...
*Peace and love*

Yours Sincerely,

Cat Stevens

[catstevens]

The Greeks also had their trinities. When making their sacrifices to their gods, they would sprinkle holy water on the altar three times, they would then sprinkle the people three times also. Frankincense was then taken with three fingers and strewed upon the alter three times. All of this was done because the oracle had proclaimed that all sacred things ought to be in threes. Remember that the philosophy of these people (The Greeks) is what was primarily responsible for defining the Christian "Trinitarian" nature of God. This was done through the writings of the Greek philosopher Plato regarding his "Logos" ("word"). Further, remember that the Gospels of the Bible were named the "Greek Gospels" for a reason: they were written in

Their language and based upon teir philosophy (see chapter one (http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/ch1.html) ).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As mentioned previously, T. W. Doane says:

"The works of Plato were extensively studied by the Church Fathers, one of whom joyfully recognizes in the great teacher, the schoolmaster who, in the fullness of time, was destined to educate the heathen for Christ, as Moses did the Jews. The celebrated passage : "In the beginning was the Word,

and the Word was with God, and the Word Was God" is a fragment of some Pagan treatise on the Platonic philosophy, evidently written by Irenaeus. It is quoted by Amelius, a Pagan philosopher as strictly applicable to the Logos, or Mercury, the Word, apparently as an honorable testimony borne to the Pagan deity by a barbarian........We see then that the title "Word" or "Logos," being applied to Jesus, is another piece of Pagan amalgamation with Christianity. It did not receive its authorized

Christian form until the middle of the second century after Christ. (*Steven: for more about this, here are some links: What does John1:1 really say and mean in Greek?! (http://www.hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154230) *** Click here (http://www.hipforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2292323&postcount=4) (for many useful links and a brief info) *** More info (http://www.hipforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2292329&postcount=6) ) The ancient pagan Romans worshipped a Trinity. An oracle is said to have declared that there was 'First God, then the Word, and with them the Spirit'. Here we see the distinctly enumerated, God, the Logos, and the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost, in ancient Rome, where the most celebrated temple of this capital - that of Jupiter Capitolinus - was dedicated to three deities, which three deities were honored with joint worship." Bible Myths and their parallels in other religions, pp. 375-376.

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Trinities were not confined to these groups alone, but the Persians, the Assyrians, the Phoenicians, the Scandinavians, the Druids, the inhabitants of Siberia, the ancient Mexicans, the Peruvians, and many others, all worshipped "Trinitarian" pagan deities (among a great multitude of other gods) long before the council of Nicea of 325 C.E. officially recognized this to be God's "true" nature.

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*Peace and love*

Yours Sincerely,

Cat Stevens

[BlackBillBlake]

I really liked what I found, but my only problem with arguing that God is more maternal is that maternal/paternal duties and actions are dictated by our culture...

That being said though, I really liked it and I just might have to look for some boooks when I get back to the campus library in the fall...
Get a modern english version of 'Revelations of Divine Love' would be my advice, unless you are accoustomed to reading middle english. I have an edition translated by Frances Beer which is excellent and contains the 'Revelations' as well as 'The Motherhood of God'. along with some background info on 14thc mystics etc, which is quite useful.
Published Boydell & Brewer (1998) ISBN 0 85991 453 4

I agree that 'gender roles' are assigned by society, but I think what Julian is getting at is something deeper.

[heron]

it was a gaulish convert that first presented the idea of trinity to the church, thats a fact.

[Burbot]

I agree that 'gender roles' are assigned by society, but I think what Julian is getting at is something deeper.
Yeah, you are most probobly right. I really just did a quick skim of an article about the ideas that are presented in the writing, and that was sort of late at night too

But yeah, I was planning on finding a translation. I can hardly stand the KJV of the Bible, let alone somethign I am completly unfamiliar with...

[Meagain]

Here's a good site, although I admit I didn't read it all.

http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/ch1.2.5.html

[catstevens]

Here's a good site, although I admit I didn't read it all.
http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/ch1.2.5.htmlOne of my very favourite Books :) The same source of my above reply
*Peace and love*

Yours Sincerely,

Cat Stevens

[heron]

...hardly... there was only one god... in paganism... it's multi god...
in the trinity... it's simply varying degrees of the same intity... it's pretty original as far as I can tell...

Thats because you have no idea what you are talking about. Not one point in that post was accurate.

[Chodpa]

A closer parallel of trinities in Hinduism and Buddhism woould be the rishi, devata, and chandas, of the Vedas, and the Trikaya of the Buddha Body of Dharmakaya, Sambogakaya, and Nirmanakaya.

One cannot create any threefold god structure in Buddhism. That would be patently false and against the basic teachings of the Buddhadharma as always taught and explored.

Those are the only two things I am able to comment upon.

[Chodpa]

The Brahmas also have their trinity. In their trinity, Vajrapani, Manjusri, and Avalokitesvara form a divine union of three gods into one god called "Buddha." The citizens of China and Japan also worship Buddha, but they know him as "Fo." When they worship him they say "Fo, is one god but has three forms."

This is just so wrong.

[thespeez]

The idea is that there is one God, made of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The triune God upholds that concept, as again, there is one "family", made up of mother, father and daughter. Pity they left the Mother out of the Christian trinity. There are two interesting websites I found recently which provide an 'interesting' point of view regarding the identity of the holy ghost.
http://www.geocities.com/goddess_trixie2000/ChristianForest.html
Specifically check this link out:
http://www.geocities.com/goddess_trixie2000/FemaleHolySpirit.html

I question this guy's beliefs. He is too 'fundamentalist' oriented for my tastes. Yet, I find some of his views thought-provoking: http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/