guidelines for new muslims

[jonny2mad]

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Announcement/MuslimGuidelines.htm

please read the above article would like your comments

in my country we have recently had a man who is considered a moderate muslim come to preach and this moderate person wants to stone or burn to death homosexuals

he also wants a women to have to prove in a rape case that she is dressed in a way that it couldnt incite a man to want to rape her so pretty much anyone not in a burka would be fair game

remember this guy is a moderate

video of a stoning

http://apostatesofislam.com/media.htm

[BlackBillBlake]

I read about a third of the way through - but I think I'm safe to assume that what followed was much the same. This is all very bad indeed. It makes me wonder if there can be any hope for integration of Muslims with the rest of society.If they were to act in accord with the advice given in this piece, then there is no hope at all.
It would be interesting to see some comment from a so called moderate Muslim on this - but I expect as usual, they would just go into denial, and repeat phrases such as 'Islam is a religion of peace' and so on.

[jonny2mad]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/07/25/nhack25.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/07/25/ixhome.html



interesting article successful author cant get work published that show islam in a negitive light as a religion not of peace even though hes been able to have 12 other books published



the subject is considered to hot to handle

[jujunisa]

ATTENTION TO ALL MUSLIMS>>>>>>this johnny has taken islam to be a target of his attack. the website he has encouraged to visit is full of nonsense. rather than visiting this kind of anti islamic websites which are only the works of devils, please go and check the truth from a reliable source. you wouldn't know which is true or false in internet websites. think abt why you have chosen islam among all other religions. those are the real reasons that makes you stay. don be brainwashed by these websites which has baseless stories.on the other hand, i encourage you to visit these website so that you will know such ppl exists to prevent the truth being revealed to you. their aim is to confuse you. you will know when u visit the website. a website meant to be laughed at. these ppl just show their vague baseless assumptions abt islam.thses ppl have nothing to do but to insult religions. they have no life of their own. i guess they have nothing better to do. they have no proof for what they have said or shown.however, i'm soooo amazed how creative their story can get. all the best from knowing the real truth from this websites. don EVER BE FOOLED BY THEM. ALLAH knows the best! fear him and go on the right path. MAY ALLAH BLESS YOU ALL AND CHANGE THE MINDSET OF PPL LIKE JOHNNY22222222 MAAAAAAAAAAD.

[tom]

Juju,

You haven't given one valid arguement to debunk anything that anyone has said. Please, let's have just ONE VALID statment that contradicts something. As far as I've read, anything Johnny's said can be backed up with the misleadings of the queeran

[jujunisa]

can be backed up by the misleading of quran? what do u mean by that? i was not the one who started this thing. he was the one who started it. before, you ask me for backup of what i say. why don u ask ur friend to prove it to me first. you ppl have not even undderstand the quran well enough to say there are misleadings in it. if he can encourage and confuse new muslims to visit those kind of anti islamic websites which is totally false. why can't i advise these muslims? he doesn't have any proofs to support his move so why must i produce one? the truth is out there, u find it urself. the message i posted are meant for new muslims to inform them that there are unreliable sources in the internet. i only want them to find out the truth from someone reliable and not from these kind of websites as they will confuse new muslims. he can debunk islam and its scripture and etc. without any evidences. and you want proof from me indicating what i'm telling is right when i'm stating the fact. if u want you can go ahead and look at the proofs that i've posted in another thread with the heading can non muslim don the hijaab? in there, i've posted more than enough proofs to indicate that what johnny is claiming and the website he is encouraging to be false. i don find anything wrong in what i said when i have the valid evidences to support my disapproval for new muslims to go and visit these kind of misleading websites.

[Maes]

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Announcement/MuslimGuidelines.htm

please read the above article would like your comments

in my country we have recently had a man who is considered a moderate muslim come to preach and this moderate person wants to stone or burn to death homosexuals

he also wants a women to have to prove in a rape case that she is dressed in a way that it couldnt incite a man to want to rape her so pretty much anyone not in a burka would be fair game

remember this guy is a moderate

video of a stoning

http://apostatesofislam.com/media.htm

If that guy suits your moderate definition, then you're not any different from him. dont misguide people.

[jujunisa]

"It makes me wonder if there can be any hope for integration of Muslims with the rest of society."

look who's talking abt muslims not integrating with the rest of society. judging from the statements made by you, i guess it is more like you ppl not integrating with muslims with all that insults and discrimination. how stupid can u get to judge the whole muslim society by the actions of some 'moderate' muslim. like you said, he is moderate meaning he does not fully understand islam. again you are looking at the muslims, not at islam itself. Islam is of course religion of peace. just because we keep reinforcing the truth, that doesn't make muslims fool. instead, because you ppl keep reinforcing the blatant lies are what makes you look like fools. you are making judgement abt islam based on muslims which is a very narrow way of looking at things. don tell me you view christianity or judaism or any other religion based on how ppl belonging to those religions behave,do u? please think before you want to write anything pal. don blame religion for the behaviour of some bad muslims. hope this will get inside your brain. so refrain from making such remarks that seem illogical.........

[NiSh]

tom maybe u should also read the other threads cos jujunisa has been givin valid reasons..but jonny2mad is just quotin from a opinionated fool's site ALL the time....

[NiSh]

and jonny2mad u are yet to reply to mine and jujunisa's questions in the previous threads....so stop tellin stories here abt these so called moderate muslims..ans us first.....and oh yeah i know that watever craigh and ali says are god's words to u..but please don forget that u have a mind too...and like i said..DONT JUDGE ISLAM JUST BY LOOKIN AT WHAT THESE PPLE ARE DOIN...it doesnt make sense at all....see the truth from the its true sense...and if u dont u will never be able to differentiate the truth from the lie..thanks to craig he has distorted and twisted all the facts...and faithfreedom is an eg of how extreme pple can get with this...he takes qutoes from the Quran that suits his purpose...IT DARN EASY TO TWIST FACTS...U GIVE ME ANY QUOTE FROM ANY SCRIPTURE AND I CAN MAKE IT SEEM DARN EVIL AND BAD TO U but if everyone starts doin things our know it all craig...then well there would have been a thousand and one quotes from the bible with a thousand and one contradictions in them..but i wouldnt do that...cos its stupidity. if he feels secured this way..if he feels th need to prove that somethin is wrong to feel that he is right..let it be then...i dont need anyone to prove wat have wrong cos am totally contented..and darn secured with what i have...well haha..let him be...he doest change my belief even a lil bit...

[jonny2mad]

sorry about the delay getting back to you been busy not sure who you mean by

craigh and ali ?

if your refering to ali sina I dont think hes gods word but as far as I know hes not married any 6 year olds or tortured people or he didnt believe all black dogs contained evil spirits like mohammed did and he didnt make and keep people as slaves

muslims have this habit of saying dont look at what muslims do to judge islam
well generally I dont, I look at the man who claimed to be a prophet and I also look at the basic teachings of the religion

one of the reasons I use faithfreedom.org is Ive been posting on the site for a few years and pretty much it puts the clearest case that mohammed was a fake and a man with extreamly low personal morality and most likely mad
and that islam is a dangerous religion

I used to point these things out to muslims before I knew faithfreedom existed ,what I noticed is the first time I mentioned faithfreedom.org on a islamic site I got banned from the site thats after a more than a year of posting on this islamic site
this seems to be a pretty general reaction

if faithfreedom.org wasnt right I doubt muslims would be so scared of it

[amiera]

I am not in denail but I am not for stoning or any other of that stuff. In fact it's in contradiction with my my thoughts

I read about a third of the way through - but I think I'm safe to assume that what followed was much the same. This is all very bad indeed. It makes me wonder if there can be any hope for integration of Muslims with the rest of society.If they were to act in accord with the advice given in this piece, then there is no hope at all.
It would be interesting to see some comment from a so called moderate Muslim on this - but I expect as usual, they would just go into denial, and repeat phrases such as 'Islam is a religion of peace' and so on.

[jonny2mad]

well you could get away with not agreeing with stoning by being a Koran only muslim as stoning isnt in the koran just haddith, there are some nice people doing that
and trying to follow a more humane path.

The only bad thing is that there are other nasty punishments in the koran for example cruifixtion and cutting off a hand and the opposing foot .a couple of days ago I was reading a thread on faithfreedom forum and they had a video of this happening in sudan

these are punishments for people who fight against islam now it depends how you define fight

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html

005.033
YUSUFALI: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
....


take a look here for the proper context of Quran 5:33 and the islamic definitions of 'wage war' and 'mischief' (in quranic arabic: 'fasad'), according to islamic sources:

http://muslim-quotes.netfirms.com/spotlights.html#5-33

so the Bottom line: when you openly oppose, contradict or question islam's teachings you're already islamically guilty of 'mischief' and 'waging war against allah'

[jonny2mad]

if you want to remain a muslim you have to as I understand it accept the koran as the word of god totally so you would have to accept chopping off peoples hands and feet and cruifixtion

[cabdirazzaq]

so the Bottom line: when you openly oppose, contradict or question islam's teachings you're already islamically guilty of 'mischief' and 'waging war against allah'
Waging war in this ayah is explained in Tafsir Ibn Katheer, it was said by the great companion of the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) :
Ibn `Abbas said about this Ayah, `He who takes up arms in Muslim land and spreads fear in the fairways and is captured, the Muslim Leader has the choice to either have him killed, crucified or cut off his hands and feet.''

Stoning and flogging are both prescribed in islam and I see no objections unto it. It works even if you see it as inhuman and you can't do other than to agree, if rapers were stoned and people had their hand chopped for stealing, you would see a great decrease in crimes which is shown in statistics and cannot be denied, if you are a christian and think this is inhuman then most certainly you are objecting to your own book:

"Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. 5Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?" 6This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. 7And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her."[John.8]

It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he has indeed strayed into a plain error. [sura Ahzab 33.36]

The only saying of the faithful believers, when they are called to Allah and His Messenger, to judge between them, is that they say: "We hear and we obey.'' And such are the successful.
And whosoever obeys Allah and His Messenger, fears Allah, and has Taqwa of Him, such are the successful.
[sura Noor 24.51-52]

[jonny2mad]

it doesnt just mean those fighting against islam with weapons as we would normally understand fighting to mean if you go to the page on tafsir.com its broader than that .

"Wage war' mentioned here means, oppose and contradict, and it includes disbelief, blocking roads and spreading fear in the fairways. Mischief in the land refers to various types of evil.

it goes on to link sura 5 with the Eight people of the `Ukl tribe that became muslims and left islam mohammed cut the hands and feet off and blinded them .

Arabic transliteration of Quran 5:33
http://www.universalunity.net/quran4/005.qmt.html
005.033 Innama jazao allatheena yuhariboona Allaha warasoolahu wayasAAawna fee al-ardi fasadan an yuqattaloo aw yusallaboo aw tuqattaAAa aydeehim waarjuluhum min khilafin aw yunfaw mina al-ardi thalika lahum khizyun fee alddunya walahum fee al-akhirati AAathabun AAatheemun

YUSUFALI:
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
GLOSSARY OF ISLAMIC TERMS
http://www.islam101.com/selections/glossaryEF.html
Fasad Fasad, literally 'corruption', in Qur'anic terminology, means creating disorder and corruption on earth by following a path other than God's. Islam maintains that true peace and happiness emanate only through the observance of God's commands and through making a conscious effort to see that His laws alone are implemented in every sphere of life. Fasad occurs when man violates God's laws and disobeys Him. Fasad may therefore be partial as well as total; partial when one disregards God's law in one aspect of life while acknowledging His sovereignty in other spheres. If a society is based on the denial of God, that society is bound to be a corrupt and exploitative society - hence full of fasad.

[jonny2mad]

thats the page from tafsir.com that shows the tafsir of Ibn Kathir

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=5&tid=13751its quite clear that it isnt just fighting

imagine what people like ayaan hirshi ali or ibn warriq are doing they arnt fighting but they are spending lots of time attacking islam in a battle of ideas .
writing books making films ect ect ect .

thats why what they are doing is pretty dangerous for them as seen by the recent death of theo van gogh

[jonny2mad]

also stoning may be a good way to deal with rape or murder or theft
but again it doesnt cover rape of captives which is legal in islam during jihad,
or the murder of non muslims in jihad also legal,
or the theft of non-muslims stuff during jihad.

as Ive suggested before what the west really should do is apply islamic law during our wars against jihadists.
if we went to iraq or afghanistan and sold all the female muslims we capture as sex slaves, and all the captives we keep as prisoners in cuba as ordinary slaves surely it would help pay for the current wars .

This suggestion isnt that serious ... but it would show how unjust islamic law is and was .

[cabdirazzaq]

Johnny during the period youve been posting here I've noticed that you have a strong thing against slavery and I understand your arguments, but perhaps you should go to the christian forum and speak about slavery over there, Islam didn't start slavery nor polygamy it only restricted it. Lets examine shall we? I´ve made this post quite long so bear patience with me, allright?
Before you start reading I want to say that I'm not accusing christians or jews of anything, I'm just comparing

Bible on slavery:

"All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God's name and our teaching may not be slandered. (From the NIV Bible, 1 Timothy 6:1)"


"Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be defamed. (From the RSV Bible, 1 Timothy 6:1)"


Leviticus 25:44-46 "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."


Johnny it seems as if your only a racist among others, if you truly had anything against slavery we would have seen you react on the following verses:


Exodus 21:7-8"And in case a man should sell his daughter as a slave girl, she will not go out in the way that the slave men go out. If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master so that he doesn't designate her as a concubine but causes her to be redeemed, he will not be entitled to sell her to a foreign people in his treacherously dealing with her."


"If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property. (From the NIV Bible, Exodus 21:20-21)"


And now let us compare with the quran(interpreation of the meaning);


It is not Birr(righteousness) that you turn your faces towards east and (or) west; but Birr is the one who believes in Allah, the Last Day, the Angels, the Book, the Prophets and gives his wealth, in spite of love for it, to the kinsfolk, to the orphans, and to Al-Masakin (the poor), and to the wayfarer, and to those who ask, and to set servants free, performs As-Salah (Iqamat-As-Salah), and gives the Zakah, and who fulfill their covenant when they make it, and who are patient in extreme poverty and ailment (disease) and at the time of fighting (during the battles). Such are the people of the truth and they are Al-Muttaqun (the pious)[2.177]


And let those who find not the financial means for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah enriches them of His bounty. And such of your servants as seek a writing (of emancipation), give them such writing, if you find that there is good and honesty in them. And give them something (yourselves) out of the wealth of Allah which He has bestowed upon you. And force not your slave-girls to prostitution, if they desire chastity, in order that you may make a gain in the goods of this worldly life. But if anyone compels them, then after such compulsion, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them).


The second verse teaches us that slaves can buy there freedom and that one should help them with that if there is good and honesty in them. Ibrahim An-Nakha`i said, "This is urging the people, their masters and others.'' This was also the view of Buraydah bin Al-Husayb Al-Aslami and Qatadah. Ibn `Abbas said: "Allah commanded the believers to help in freeing slaves.''

I said to `Ata', "If I know that my servant has money, is it obligatory for me to write him a contract of emancipation'' He said, "I do not think it can be anything but obligatory.'' `Amr bin Dinar said: "I said to `Ata', `Are you narrating this from anybody' He said, `No,' then he told me that Musa bin Anas told him that Sirin, who had a lot of money, asked Anas for a contract of emancipation and he refused. So he went to `Umar (bin Al-Khattab), may Allah be pleased with him, and he said, `Write it for him.' He refused, so `Umar hit him with his whip and recited(interpretation of the meaning): give them such writing, if you find that there is good and honesty in them. Then he wrote the contract.''


The following narrations are speaking about manners and the like towards the slave;


Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: When the slave of anyone amongst you prepares food for him and he serves him after having sat close to (and undergoing the hardship of) heat and smoke, he should make him (the slave) sit along with him and make him eat (along with him), and if the food seems to run short, then he should spare some portion for him (from his own share)


At Ar-Rabadha I met Abu Dhar who was wearing a cloak, and his slave, too, was wearing a similar one. I asked about the reason for it. He replied, "I abused a person by calling his mother with bad names." The Prophet said to me, 'O Abu Dhar! Did you abuse him by calling his mother with bad names You still have some characteristics of ignorance. Your slaves are your brothers and Allah has put them under your command. So whoever has a brother under his command should feed him of what he eats and dress him of what he wears. Do not ask them (slaves) to do things beyond their capacity (power) and if you do so, then help them.'


Zadhan reported that Ibn Umar called his slave and he found the marks (of beating) upon his back. He said to him: I have caused you pain. He said: No. But he (Ibn Umar) said: You are free. He then took hold of something from the earth and said: There is no reward for me even to the weight equal to it. I heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: He who beats a slave without cognizable offence of his or slaps him (without any serious fault), then expiation for it is that he should set him free.


Narrated Asma: "No doubt the Prophet ordered people to manumit slaves during the solar eclipse.


Narrated Abu Musa Al-Ash'ari: "The Prophet said, "Give food to the hungry, pay a visit to the sick and release (set free) the one in captivity (by paying his ransom)."



The following quran verses and narrations speak about the liberation of slaves:


It is not for a believer to kill a believer except by mistake; and whosoever kills a believer by mistake, he must set free a believing slave and submit compensation (blood money) to the deceased's family unless they remit it... [Sura Nisaa (Women) 4.92]


Allah will not punish you for what is unintentional in your oaths, but He will punish you for your deliberate oaths; for its expiation feed ten poor, on a scale of the Awsat of that with which you feed your own families; or clothe them; or free a slave. But whosoever cannot afford, then he should fast for three days. That is the expiation for the oaths when you have sworn. And protect your oaths. Thus Allah makes clear to you His Ayat that you may be grateful.[5.89]


And those who make unlawful to them (their wives) by Zihar and wish to free themselves from what they uttered, (the penalty) in that case is the freeing of a slave before they touch each other. That is an admonition to you. And Allah is All-Aware of what you do.[58.3]


But he has not attempted to pass on the path that is steep.
And what will make you know the path that is steep
Freeing a neck
Or giving food in a day full of Masghabah[hunger],
To an orphan near of kin.
Or to a Miskin cleaving to dust.[90.11-16]


Or to a Miskin cleaving to dust (Dha Matrabah).) meaning, poor, miserable, and clinging to the dirt. It means those who are in a state of destitution. Ibn `Abbas said, "Dha Matrabah is that who is dejected in the street and who has no house or anything else to protect him against the dirt.

It says in a hadith:

The merciful people will be treated with mercy by the Most Merciful (Allah). Be merciful to those who are on the earth and He Who is above the heavens will be merciful to you.


And furthermore the prophet(may peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) says about children(compare this with verse in the bible describing a daughter that is sold):


Whoever does not show mercy to our children, nor does he recognize the right of our elders, then he is not of us.

[Jedi]

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Announcement/MuslimGuidelines.htm

please read the above article would like your comments

in my country we have recently had a man who is considered a moderate muslim come to preach and this moderate person wants to stone or burn to death homosexuals

he also wants a women to have to prove in a rape case that she is dressed in a way that it couldnt incite a man to want to rape her so pretty much anyone not in a burka would be fair game

remember this guy is a moderate

video of a stoning

http://apostatesofislam.com/media.htm

I don't know what you are trying to prove here...but this is ridiculous. I dare you to say something positive about this religion, but then again I know you are not capable of such a virtue.

[Mui]

so many people are out to harm muslims and in general the reputation of islam..

so many of them are truly good people..

I have many muslim comrades....

[amiera]

Terrorism is a crime against humanity. Islam is a religion that means "peace". In the Koran, the Holy Book of Islam, God commands believers to bring peace and security to the world. The Islamic morality is the cure for terrorism, not the source of it.

''God commands justice and doing good and giving to relatives. And He forbids indecency and doing wrong and tyranny. He warns you so that hopefully you will pay heed.'' (The Noble Qur'an, 16:90)

''Each time they kindle the fire of war, Allah extinguishes it. They rush about the earth corrupting it. Allah does not love corrupters. (5:64)''

''Permission to fight is given to those who are fought against because they have been wronged - truly God has the power to come to their support - those who were expelled from their homes without any right, merely for saying, 'Our Lord is God'… (The Noble Quran 22:39-40)''

''Fight in the Way of God against those who fight you, but do not go beyond the limits. God does not love those who go beyond the limits. (The Noble Quran 2:190)''

''God does not forbid you from being good to those who have not fought you over religion or driven you from your homes, or from being just towards them. God loves those who are just. God merely forbids you from taking as friends those who have fought you over religion and driven you from your homes and who supported your expulsion... (The Noble Quran 60:8-9)''

''You who believe! Show integrity for the sake of God, bearing witness with justice. Do not let hatred for a people incite you into not being just. Be just. That is closer to heedfulness. Heed God (alone). God is aware of what you do. (The Noble Quran 5: 8 )''

The teachings of the Prophet on how you and I should treat our Non-Muslim friends and neighbours on a day to day basis as well as how to government should treat a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state.

"He who believes in God and the Last Day should honour his guest, should not harm his neighbour, should speak good or keep quiet." (Bukhari, Muslim)

"Whoever hurts a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state hurts me, and he who hurts me annoys God." (Bukhari)

"He who hurts a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state, I am his adversary, and I shall be his adversary on the Day of a Judgement." (Bukhari)

"Beware on the Day of Judgement; I shall mysefl be complainant against him who wrongs a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state or lays on him a responsibility greater than he can bear or deprives him of anything that belongs to him." (Al-Mawardi)

"Anyone who kills a Non-Muslim who had become our ally will not smell the fragrance of Paradise." (Bukhari)

[jonny2mad]

cab islam isnt a race so being anti islam isnt being racist.

and I dont give a damn if you call me a racist its the usual thing muslims say at some point about people who are critics of their religion .
it doesnt effect me in the slightest half my family is chinese most of the top critics of islam are not white

Im not a christian so I dont see how anything thats in the bible effects what I say about islam .

youve choosen passages that make it appear that islamic slavery was somehow kind it wasnt we have gone over this before the topic of this thread is how muslims see non muslims.

and I attack muslims over slavery partly because Ive talked to muslims who still support slavery, its still practiced in some islamic countrys, and mohammed made and kept people as slaves something that jesus for example didnt do .

I havent seen anyone disagree with the guidelines for new muslims and backing up why they disagree

jedi and mui if you think you have muslim friends either two things are happening either they are going against the teachings of their religion, or they are fooling you and you are both really gullible idiots .

the koran says that a muslim shouldnt take a christian or a jew as a friend , now christians and jews are people of the book its much worse if either of you are lets say hindus or atheists

read the guidelines again and find some muslim who wishes contradict them using islamic scripture http://www.faithfreedom.org/Announcement/MuslimGuidelines.htm

[Magnus76]

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Announcement/MuslimGuidelines.htm

please read the above article would like your comments

in my country we have recently had a man who is considered a moderate muslim come to preach and this moderate person wants to stone or burn to death homosexuals

he also wants a women to have to prove in a rape case that she is dressed in a way that it couldnt incite a man to want to rape her so pretty much anyone not in a burka would be fair game

remember this guy is a moderate

video of a stoning

http://apostatesofislam.com/media.htm
I'd say this kinds of people is just expressing a (somewhat distguisting) political/cultural view - they're not spokesmen of Islam. At least I know some muslims that tell me this is not what their faith is about and I belive them 'cause they are nice people in deeds and words.

[Magnus76]

Terrorism is a crime against humanity. Islam is a religion that means "peace". In the Koran, the Holy Book of Islam, God commands believers to bring peace and security to the world. The Islamic morality is the cure for terrorism, not the source of it.

''God commands justice and doing good and giving to relatives. And He forbids indecency and doing wrong and tyranny. He warns you so that hopefully you will pay heed.'' (The Noble Qur'an, 16:90)

''Each time they kindle the fire of war, Allah extinguishes it. They rush about the earth corrupting it. Allah does not love corrupters. (5:64)''

''Permission to fight is given to those who are fought against because they have been wronged - truly God has the power to come to their support - those who were expelled from their homes without any right, merely for saying, 'Our Lord is God'… (The Noble Quran 22:39-40)''

''Fight in the Way of God against those who fight you, but do not go beyond the limits. God does not love those who go beyond the limits. (The Noble Quran 2:190)''

''God does not forbid you from being good to those who have not fought you over religion or driven you from your homes, or from being just towards them. God loves those who are just. God merely forbids you from taking as friends those who have fought you over religion and driven you from your homes and who supported your expulsion... (The Noble Quran 60:8-9)''

''You who believe! Show integrity for the sake of God, bearing witness with justice. Do not let hatred for a people incite you into not being just. Be just. That is closer to heedfulness. Heed God (alone). God is aware of what you do. (The Noble Quran 5: 8 )''

The teachings of the Prophet on how you and I should treat our Non-Muslim friends and neighbours on a day to day basis as well as how to government should treat a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state.

"He who believes in God and the Last Day should honour his guest, should not harm his neighbour, should speak good or keep quiet." (Bukhari, Muslim)

"Whoever hurts a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state hurts me, and he who hurts me annoys God." (Bukhari)

"He who hurts a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state, I am his adversary, and I shall be his adversary on the Day of a Judgement." (Bukhari)

"Beware on the Day of Judgement; I shall mysefl be complainant against him who wrongs a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state or lays on him a responsibility greater than he can bear or deprives him of anything that belongs to him." (Al-Mawardi)

"Anyone who kills a Non-Muslim who had become our ally will not smell the fragrance of Paradise." (Bukhari)
These quotes makes a lot more sense than many things I've heard people say in the name of Religion and Christianity in particular. I'm all for being a Non-Muslim ally if the option is waging war.

[jonny2mad]

magnus you can only be a dhimmini if your a person of the book a christian or jew.

Im a atheist or agnostic depending on how grumpy I am, so I couldnt get dhimmi status and worse than that Im a critic of islam so Id be cruicified or have my hands and feet cut off .

pagans hindus new age people ect ect ect cant be dhimmis
so you would be allying yourself against them for a supposed quiet life .

as a dhimmi you would live the life of a second class citizen a life that would be set up in a way that would encourage you or your decendants to convert to islam.


amiera islam doesnt mean peace, it doesnt bring peace, you cant have peace with pagans atheists ect ect ect

what the islamic concept of peace is comes through submission to islam
submission to Muhammad and his concept of Allah in the Quran

The Quran, by the way, teaches that Muslims are never to initiate war. But Islam has a strange way of explaining this. For example, Muslims are supposed to offer non-Muslims an opportunity to embrace Islam. If the non-Muslims refuse, the Muslim thinking is that they have commited aggression against Allah and Islam. Therefore, the Muslim is allowed to fight these aggressors against Allah and Islam until they become Muslims or are killed.

another point the concept of innocence

in the koran it says 5:32
005.032
Min ajli thalika katabna AAala banee isra-eela annahu man qatala nafsan bighayri nafsin aw fasadin fee al-ardi fakaannama qatala alnnasa jameeAAan waman ahyaha fakaannama ahya alnnasa jameeAAan walaqad jaat-hum rusuluna bialbayyinati thumma inna katheeran minhum baAAda thalika fee al-ardi lamusrifoona

YUSUFALI: On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.

PICKTHAL: For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty), but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth.

SHAKIR: For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our messengers came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.

now the interesting bit is spreading mischief in the land or as pickthal translates it corruption in the earth

Mischief in arabic is 'fasad'. the islamic definition of 'fasad'
http://www.islam101.com/selections/glossaryEF.html
Fasad
Fasad, literally 'corruption', in Qur'anic terminology, means creating disorder and corruption on earth by following a path other than God's. Islam maintains that true peace and happiness emanate only through the observance of God's commands and through making a conscious effort to see that His laws alone are implemented in every sphere of life. Fasad occurs when man violates God's laws and disobeys Him. Fasad may therefore be partial as well as total; partial when one disregards God's law in one aspect of life while acknowledging His sovereignty in other spheres. If a society is based on the denial of God, that society is bound to be a corrupt and exploitative society - hence full of fasad.

Fasad happens when people don't follow allah's way... So basically this means that non-muslims are guilty of fasad, and thus are allowed to be killed.

reading this may make things clearer
its a tafsir on that verse

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=5&tid=13751

The Punishment of those Who Cause Mischief in the Land

Allah said next,
(The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land.)

'Wage war' mentioned here means, oppose and contradict, and it includes disbelief, blocking roads and spreading fear in the fairways. Mischief in the land refers to various types of evil.


amiera
you said something that clearly contradicts the koran. you refer to our non muslim friends and neighbours ,who are these people when you are directly told not to have christians or jews as friends and if anybody they are the most close to muslims .

Im sure if you said that on a islamic forum someone would have brought you up on that most likely you have non muslim friends but thats not part of the religion .
it would be nice if you put the number by the haddith qoutes you seem a nice person having non muslim friends best wishes

[Jedi]

jedi and mui if you think you have muslim friends either two things are happening either they are going against the teachings of their religion, or they are fooling you and you are both really gullible idiots .

the koran says that a muslim shouldnt take a christian or a jew as a friend , now christians and jews are people of the book its much worse if either of you are lets say hindus or atheists

Are you following your religion?

[jonny2mad]

I dont have one, I believe in no gods, no afterlife when I die I will rot.
while Im alive I try to live ethically and without fear

[Jedi]

I like your statement and i think you strongly believe that you do live ethically, but in my opinion, I don't think it is ethical for someone like you to come to an Islam forum and bash it. You should try to go to an Anti Islam forum and say things there rather than come here and show the negative aspects of this religion.
I think in here it is only ethical and moral to admire the positive aspects of Islam, the people here who really sincerely want to learn about it- only want to learn about the positive aspects of this religion, they don't want to know about the negative aspects.

[jonny2mad]

I know people who converted to islam who claim they were not told about apostates being killed . I was on a islamic forum a few days ago, and there was a (muslim I think) saying that he thought it was wrong that if there is a death sentence on people who leave islam that they were not clearly told .

I dont think he thought that there was a death sentence because of the no compulsion verse in the koran, but the majority of other muslims on the thread thought there was a death sentence .

now if islam is true whatever I say shouldnt effect someone becoming a muslim because truth will shine out over falseness .

as it stands on the internet at the moment there are thousands if not millions of islamic websites where if I asked the wrong questions Id be banned .
then there are a few anti islam websites where someone like cab would be swamped with anti-islam people.
in a way this site is nuetral ground or at least as nuetral as your going to get.

you have me and a few other people who are anti islam, you have lots of people who dont have a view one way or the other, and you have cab and some other muslim posters who are pro islam.

cab or I could set up our own personal forums to study islam or anti islam and keep out muslims or non muslims if we wanted , but a open islam forum on a hippie site isnt just going to have pro-islam or anti islam views

[naps]

i think jonny was bullied at school or something. :rolleyes:

That sort of hate isn't natural.

But at 40years old that must of been a long time ago.

Pitting you wit against 16 and 17 year olds AND losing is saying something.

[jonny2mad]

I have no power to decide on the age of the people who post here, and I dont see how I have lost.

I dont see how old you are nappy , but if you would like to disprove what I have said about islam go ahead

islam is a religion full of kafir-phobia ,I just think its a good idea to inform non muslims how Islam thinks of them

The hate is coming from muslims,

its the koran that teaches people to crucify people and cut their hands and feet off not me

[cabdirazzaq]

How can you interpret a verse that speaks against terrorism and make it look like its for terrorism. You know the hadith and how those liars, robers and murderers were dealt with during the time of the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him), this was because they had spread fisq in the country and they got cut off, litarally.

[amiera]

@ jonny2mad Well, I’ve all kinds of people as friends because I am in international school. Doesn’t Muslims have non Muslim friends in the UK? That’s odd because it’s a Christian country…..

About what would you like to see haddith qoutes?

“The hate is coming from muslims, its the koran that teaches people to crucify people and cut their hands and feet off not me.”

“I try to live ethically and without fear.”

So a contradiction. Never mind, I sometimes discover my own contradictable system of values.