Who Rules: Sasha Shulgin or Albert Hofmann?

[the anarchist]

Who rules: "Sasha" Shulgin


http://www.hipgallery.com/photopost2/data/509/Shulgin.jpg

Author of "PiKHAL" and "TiKHAL"


or Albert Hofmann?


http://www.hipgallery.com/photopost2/data/509/Hofmann.jpg

Inventor of LSD

[wonderboy]

what

[drumminmama]

sasha: sheer amount of documented research and the thought to get all the compounds out into the human knowledge base.

[the anarchist]

OK, maybe the question may seem vague or silly, but I intended it to stimulate some sort of discussion or maybe even several discussions.

One way to interpret it: do you prefer LSD or the phenethylamines (the "research chemicals") invented by Shulgin?

If you are a chemist or are interested in chemistry, who do you admire more?

Will any of the research chemicals invented by Shulgin overtake LSD?

Do you think that the achievements of Shulgin have been underappreciated?

Has anyone here ever met either of them (I already know The Flow has met both) or corresponded with either of them?

Will there be a resurgence of LSD some time in the future, or will LSD remain popular among small tightly-knit communities (e.g., Deadheads)?

These are just a few questions that come to mind, but the thread is open to any kind of relevant discussion.

[Soberbeah]

I can't stand chemistry, but it seems like Sasha might have tested the limits a little more than Hoffman. And I think acid's going to be back someday, hopefully after our civil war.

[Tarantism]

both seemed like a strange vote...though they both are quite neat. what about teerance mckenna? hmm there are some otheers//...
Dr. Albert Hofmann (born January 11 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_11), 1906 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1906)) is a prominent Swiss (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland) scientist and best known as the "father (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_known_as_the_Father_or_Mother_of_so mething#H)" of LSD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSD). He was born in Baden, Switzerland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baden%2C_Switzerland), and studied chemistry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemistry) at the University of Zürich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Z%C3%BCrich). His main interest was the chemistry of plants and animals, and he later conducted important research regarding the chemical structure of the common animal substance chitin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chitin), for which he received his doctorate. Hofmann joined the pharmaceutical-chemical department of Sandoz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandoz) Laboratories (now Novartis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novartis)), located in Basel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basel), studying the medicinal plant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicinal_plant) squill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squill) and the fungus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fungus) ergot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergot) as part of a program to purify and synthesize active constituents for use as pharmaceuticals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmaceuticals).
His research in lysergic acid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysergic_acid), the central shared component of ergot alkaloids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkaloid), eventually led to the synthesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthesis) of LSD-25 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSD-25) in 1938 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938). It was five years later, on repeating synthesis of the almost forgotten substance, that Dr. Hofmann discovered the psychedelic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychedelic) effects of LSD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSD) after accidentally absorbing some through his fingertips on April 16 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_16), 1943 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1943). Three days later, on April 19 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_19) (later known as Bicycle Day (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_Day), after his bicycle ride home that day while under LSD's influence), Hofmann deliberately consumed 250 µg of LSD, and experienced far more intense effects (see: LSD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSD#History) for details). This was followed by a series of self-experiments conducted by Hofmann and his colleagues. He first wrote about these experiments on April 22 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_22) of the same year.

He became director of the natural products department at Sandoz and went on studying hallucinogenic substances found in Mexican mushrooms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushroom) and other plants used by the aboriginal people. This led to the synthesis of psilocybin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psilocybin), the active agent of many "magic mushrooms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychedelic_mushroom)."

Hofmann also became interested in the seeds of the Mexican morning glory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morning_glory) species Rivea corymbosa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivea_corymbosa), the seeds of which are called Ololiuhqui by the natives. He was surprised to find the active compound of Ololiuhqui chemically similar to LSD.

In 1962 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1962), he and his wife Anita travelled to southern Mexico (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico) to search for the plant "Ska Maria Pastora" (Leaves of Mary the Shepherdess), later known as Salvia divinorum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvia_divinorum). He was able to obtain samples of this plant but never succeeded in identifying its active chemicals.

He calls LSD "medicine for the soul" and is frustrated by the worldwide prohibition that has pushed it underground. "It was used very successfully for 10 years in psychoanalysis," he said, adding that the drug was hijacked by the youth movement of the 1960s and then unfairly demonized by the establishment that the movement opposed. He concedes LSD can be dangerous in the wrong hands. [1] (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/07/international/europe/07hoffman.html?oref=login)

He has been the author of over 100 scientific articles and has written (or co-written) a number of books, including LSD, My Problem Child, which is partly an autobiography and describes his famous bicycle ride.

On the occasion of his 100th birthday on January 11 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_11), 2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006), he was the focus of an international symposium (http://lsd.info/symposium/home-en?set_language=en&cl=en), which drew further media attention for his discovery of LSD.

"I think that in human evolution it has never been as necessary to have this substance LSD," said Hofmann. "It is just a tool to turn us into what we are supposed to be." - Wired.com article (http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,70015-1.html?tw=wn_story_page_next1)
hm, he did a lot more than discover LSD. that was suprising...


Shulgin is generally credited with the popularizing of ecstasy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecstasy_%28drug%29) in the late 1970s and early 1980s, especially for psychopharmaceutical (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Psychopharmaceutical&action=edit) use. He and his wife Ann Shulgin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Shulgin) authored the books PiHKAL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PiHKAL) and TiHKAL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TiHKAL). Shulgin discovered many other noteworthy phenethylamines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenethylamines) including the 2C* family of which 2C-T-2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2C-T-2), 2C-T-7 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2C-T-7), 2C-I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2C-I), and 2C-B (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2C-B) are most well known. Additionally, Shulgin performed seminal work into the descriptive synthesis of compounds based on the organic compound tryptamine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tryptamine).

After his creation of a series of successful (and profitable) patents for Dow Chemical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dow_Chemical_Company), Shulgin left Dow to pursue his own interests, and became a private consultant, also frequently teaching graduate classes in the local universities. Through his friend Bob Sager, head of the DEA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_Enforcement_Agency)'s Western Laboratories, Shulgin formed a relationship with the DEA and began holding pharmacology seminars for the agents, supplying the DEA with samples of various compounds, and occasionally serving as an expert witness in court; he also authored a definitive law enforcement reference book on controlled substances and received several awards from the DEA.

Through this work, he obtained a DEA Schedule I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_Substances_Act) license, allowing him to posess and synthesize any otherwise illicit drug. Shulgin set up a chemical synthesis laboratory in a small building behind his house, which gave him a great deal of career autonomy. Shulgin used this freedom to synthesize and test the effects of psychoactive drugs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoactive_drug). After judicious self-experiments, he enlisted a small group of friends with whom he regularly tested his creations. They had a systematic way of ranking the effects of the various drugs, known as the Shulgin Rating Scale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shulgin_Rating_Scale), with a vocabulary to describe the visual, auditory and physical sensations. He personally tested hundreds of drugs, mainly analogues of various phenethylamines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenethylamine) (family containing MDMA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecstasy_%28drug%29), and mescaline (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mescaline)), and tryptamines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tryptamine) (family containing DMT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyltryptamine) and psilocybin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psilocybin)). There are a seemingly infinite number of slight chemical variations, all of which produce variations in effect--some pleasant and some unpleasant--and all of which are meticulously recorded in Shulgin's books.

Two years after the publication of PiHKAL, the DEA raided his lab; finding problems with his record keeping, the DEA requested that Shulgin turn over his license for violating the license's terms. Two earlier, unnanounced reviews during the over 15 years in which Shulgin held his license, both before the publication of PiHKAL, had failed to find any irregularities. Richard Meyer, spokesman for DEA's San Francisco Field Division, has stated that "It is our opinion that those books are pretty much cookbooks on how to make illegal drugs. Agents tell me that in clandestine labs that they have raided, they have found copies of those books," suggesting that the publication of PiHKAL and the termination of Shulgin's license are not unrelated.

Some of the more interesting chemicals mentioned in Shulgin's books include DiPT (diisopropyltryptamine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diisopropyltryptamine)), which appears to almost exclusively affect the sense of hearing. Perceived frequencies of sounds are shifted down nonlinearly (as opposed to each pitch shifting the same amount), which indicates that the drug might affect cortical processing areas rather than the ear itself.

He currently works at home in Lafayette (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lafayette%2C_California), CA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California), and is writing a new comprehensive psychedelic drug index.
i knew about TiHKAL and PiHKAL, and it says that he is writing a new one. i think that out of the two, albert hoffman was more innovative. they both are interesting humans, though.

by the way did anyone know that aldus huxley requested a huge dose of LSD on his deathbed? that would be amazing.

[dd3stp233]

Albert Hoffman has had a much larger impact on the world over the last 60 years. Think of how much lsd has changed the world and how many people have been influenced by it. Hoffman was the first person to isolate and indentify psilocybin from magic mushrooms, in part helping to bring mushrooms to the masses.

[enjoibaked]

Man, that is too hard of a choice to make.
Dr. Ecstacy or The Inventor of Acid.
Couldn't choose.

[psilojunkie]

as much as albert hofmann did for us by inventing acid, shulgin did 20 times over by making his own analogues and drugs
shulgin is also the government's go to man when it comes to drug advice and he's still for legalization of just about everything

[eman resu]

I would say there about the same L blows everything shulgin ever invented out of the water but hoffman didnt intentionaly create it but he did go with the whole thing. Shuglin on the other hand has probably litteraly expieremented more drugs than any other human on the face of the planet and hes still sharp enough to make all this shit!

[Stiney]

OK, maybe the question may seem vague or silly, but I intended it to stimulate some sort of discussion or maybe even several discussions.

One way to interpret it: do you prefer LSD or the phenethylamines (the "research chemicals") invented by Shulgin?

If you are a chemist or are interested in chemistry, who do you admire more?

Will any of the research chemicals invented by Shulgin overtake LSD?

Do you think that the achievements of Shulgin have been underappreciated?

Has anyone here ever met either of them (I already know The Flow has met both) or corresponded with either of them?

Will there be a resurgence of LSD some time in the future, or will LSD remain popular among small tightly-knit communities (e.g., Deadheads)?

These are just a few questions that come to mind, but the thread is open to any kind of relevant discussion.I can't believe more people voted for Hoffman than Shulgin, I guess there must just be a lot of acid heads on here, as much as I like LSD and Hoffman he's not in the same league as Shulgin.

As for the questions you asked above,
1.Yes I prefer the RC's discovered by Shulgin to the one major drug, LSD, discovered by Hoffman.

2.I am what you might call an unqualified chemist and I admire Shulgin far more.

3. Ecstacy (MDMA) HAS overtaken LSD, in popularity, in how widespread it's use is, in the amount of time it will mantain its momentum of use, ect ect ect.

4. No I think that everyone under the age of 30 that knows who Shulgin is fully appreciates his achievments.

5.Never met either of them.

6.I can't see there being a MAJOR resurgence of LSD use, like when it was at its height and regular use will mainly remain within certain groups, having said that though there will always be spikes from time to time.

Now I can only speak from my own personal expieriences and those of the people around me but I don't think that anyone could argue with the fact that MDMA will maintain its status as the worlds most commonly used synth for far far longer that LSD ever did.

[stalk]

which is a shame...

E bores me.

I'm with sasha, love ya mate.

[Klute]

Tough one, like people are sayin' Hoffmann is just an all time legend, but having said that, i don't think anyone has done more for the use of pyschedelic chemicals than the man himself Shulgin. Plus Shulgin plays the Viola!!!

[kcd1987]

both are incredibly intelligent men. that being said i could never put one over the other.

[clementinexo]

albert, for sure.

[2cesarewild]

1.Yes I prefer the RC's discovered by Shulgin to the one major drug, LSD, discovered by Hoffman.
Which ones? Most of them have unwanted side effects that LSD does not, I think you're the first person to say you like them more. Have you ever had good lsd, or even real lsd considering the way the scene is nowadays?

3. Ecstacy (MDMA) HAS overtaken LSD, in popularity, in how widespread it's use is, in the amount of time it will mantain its momentum of use, ect ect ect.Shulgin didn't invent ecstasy, and the main reason ecstasy has taken over as this generation's drug is because of the mentality so prevalent today that people just want to feel good, no matter what. Pop a pill and feel good. With LSD it was actually about expanding consciousness... nobody cares about that anymore.

Now I can only speak from my own personal expieriences and those of the people around me but I don't think that anyone could argue with the fact that MDMA will maintain its status as the worlds most commonly used synth for far far longer that LSD ever did.I can only hope that use will steadily decline until manufacturers slow down production of that garbage.

[PsyGrunge]

albert hoffman

[trippedelia]

sasha sounds so damn excited and ahead of himself when you hear him talk about chems, haha i love it.

[fryingsquirrel]

I voted both, LSD beats any of Sasha's creations, IMO. But he's created so many!

[kidsmoke]

I vote "both" but I have a greater appreciation for Shulgin's work. He knew what he was doing and had the balls to document it. If I recall correctly, Hoffman discovered LSD's effects somewhat accidentally. As far as turning it on the world, well, you can thank Owsley for that.

[max666]

yeah im with Shuglin the ruesky knows what hes doing, varry maach(borat accent).
history will show shuglin the more accoplished one outa the two, i think it already does. though shulgin doesnt have as much populairty as hofan curently

[Phen-research-vas]

I think shulgin did way more for drug users by the sheer amount of shit he invented isn't it at like 300 drugs or some shit like that? I know pihkal and tihkal together must have near 300 drugs in them. And I think research chemicals are gonna be the next big thing, they already sort of are I can get good chemicals way easier than I can get good acid. In ten years be prepared to see research chemicals sold on the streets they already are actually even where I live but not as consistent as other shit or as pure as from a vendor although i know a few people who sell shit from vendors retail.

[blitz7341]

shulgin is my hero.