Pedophiles: Sick or Evil?

[Libertine]

Most everyone who are not pedophiles revile pedophiles, but for what reason do you shudder at such a practice?

Do you think pedophiles are sick and in need of either psychological counseling, drug therapy or both whilst being quarantined from children?

OR

Do you believe pedophiles are "evil", overrun by "Satan" or "demons" and needed to be warehoused in prisons ONLY or perhaps EXECUTED?

It's your opinion. So feel free to be honest.

[UrsusKind]

I think it is a little of both. Some of um are just sick, you know maybe they were ritualy raped (molested) as a child and now their brain just thinks normal sexual activity is between adult and child.

But there are some sick ohs who just get off on the whole forbiden part of it, or they like the heplessness of their victim, or they are just sexual predators looking to take easy prey.

All the fuck jobs need help though. What ever help they can get.

[Shane99X]

Sick or evil, either way if somebody touches my son he won't make it to the courthouse steps. That's a promise.

[UrsusKind]

Sick or evil, either way if somebody touches my son and he won't make it to the courthouse steps. That's a promise.
Oh I forgot to mention that I consider murder in some cases "Help"

[MikeE]

It doesn't matter whether they are sick or evil. They must be stopped from harming children. Why they want to harm kids is secondary to stopping them.

But if we understand their motivation, we can stop them better

Perhaps, but we must protect the kids even if we are wrong about why the pedophiles do what they do. Protection schemes based on the presumed motivation must include the possibility that those presumptions are wrong.


OK, I'll vote BOTH.

[MikeE]

I didn't read the poll questions.

Why castrated and tourture anyone to death, even those possessed by Satan?
Isn't a quick painless death better for the exicutioner?

To put it another way, do you want your neighbor to be a liscenced torturer?

Society may need to be stern, but should be less cruel than transgressors.

[Libertine]

I agree with the progressive methods myself.

[Shane99X]

The trouble is that not everyone accused of pedophilia is guilty.
It's a word that tends to creep up in divorce/custody issues....

[Shane99X]

but if we're talking about someone caught trying to seduce a 6yr old or something, then yeah, kill him.

[Lying in a field]

That is such a tough and complicated argument - You can fall in so many holes and if you take the progressive point of view, you'll probably be labelled an idiot by many.

Interesting question: Could pedophilia be mainly a result of a collapsed and dysfunctional society? In other words:

Pedophilia is NOT a natural phenomenon, and on a small scale society as a whole needs to take some responsibility?

[sugrmag]

Sick or evil, either way if somebody touches my son he won't make it to the courthouse steps. That's a promise.
Ditto. I am a very peaceful nonviolent person, but if anyone were to ever touch one of my girls, there would be no body to be found...

[Lying in a field]

Ditto. I am a very peaceful nonviolent person, but if anyone were to ever touch one of my girls, there would be no body to be found...
I've never had children so perhaps i don't understand. But i couldn't imagine killing anyone for anything other than saving someone's life. I know its such a terrible thing though, i'm not really sure.

[streamlight]

Just remember if there's no grass on the field, flip 'em over and play in the mud.

[jonny2mad]

I went for the Evil and need to be locked up FOREVER. option I dont believe in satan or generally in torturing people ,there are some circumstances that I might believe in torture if it was able to get information that would save lives maybe .

but generally I would say life imprisionment would be a good option, I dont think the other methods work and its not worth the risk

[Nimrod's Apprentice]

This is why hanging needs to come back. HANG EM! HANG EM! HANG EM! (the crowd cheered loudly) excerpt from the Crucible.

[mushie18]

I think pedophiles are evil human beings. They need to learn that touching children is wrong, and if that means execution, then by all means do it.

[Lying in a field]

Thats a paradox. You can't teach someone whos dead.

[jonny2mad]

well you may be able to teach them for the short period before they die

[jonny2mad]

also it may teach unconvicted ones something either not to do it , or more likely to kill the children as they are less likely to be witnesses if dead .

Im not that keen on hanging as you sometimes get mistakes in courts and you end up hanging innocent people , wonder if we could send all these pedophiles to australia or the falklands or somewhere unpleasent and get them working on something useful.

like the good ole days .... wonder whats happening on devils island these days

[Libertine]

I understand the anger and frustration of many on here. As a father of two myself, I would be furious over such an event happening.

However, I am very familiar with dealing with a pedophile. One of my first cousins (like a brother to me) was the one who introduced sex to me. No, he didn't molest me, but he did show me several dirty magazines and explained lots of about sex to me when I was around 6 years old.

At the time, he was about 13 or 14 and I watched him have oral sex with a neighborhood girl that he went to school with. Like me, he masturbated at a very young age. Unlike me, his mental capacity didn't seem to grow with his maturity and he was messing with girls the same age up until he was in his early 20s--that I know of.

He told me one day (when we were both adults) that he still had fantasies of young girls and that he was afraid of himself--that he may act if he were around them. At this time, I wasn't married, but he was and had 3 kids!

I told him that he needed to go to a therapist and he told me that he was too ashamed and too afraid that because of the nature of his "illness". He said that he would be too embarrassed to discuss it with a therapist or anyone, but me. I guess because I was never too judgmental and had a HELL of a lot of tolerance.

Although I DO NOT tolerate pedophiliac practices, I do see (through him) that this illness could be--at least partly--nature for some people. Even in many nations what we as Westerners consider "pedophilia" and sick are part of the culture.

Old America had it. My great grandfather was 19 when he married my great grandmother who was 14. It is fine back then in the "fields and farm" days and even beneficial to society as a whole. But, now he would be arrested for molestation. See the point? I don't quite think of great grandfather as a predator stalking the streets... :D

Also, one guy here mentioned that anyone who takes a progressive method may look like an idiot. I think this is sad. Progressives are NOT defenders of child molestation--that is UTTERLY OUTRAGEOUS! So, we do not have to apologize away our position just to pacify barbarians. We believe in STOPPING THIS PRACTICE, but through ways that may ultimately lead to a stronger society through benefitting the victim and stopping the cause of the problem at its root with the offender.

I think, when I say I look at it from the progressive point, we have to address these questions:

What REALLY constitutes "molestation"?

What REALLY constitutes harm to minors?

Can we pinpoint what the actual harm IS in all areas? (For instance, there is a major difference in sodomizing a 9 year old and grabbing the ass of 12 year old. One is a physical abuse with physical damage, the other I highly doubt really has significant effects to the child throughout their lives unless it's "Dad" who's grabbing the ass--then that is another matter altogether!)

What can be done to stop molestation effectively and be beneficial to all parties? (Saftey for the child, Restitution for the family and Reform for the offender...)

Does the retributive (revenge) method REALLY benefit society as a whole better than a restitutive/reform method?

Is the human zoo, violent death or barbaric practices the ONLY answer for sick people who have had the same feelings since early childhood?

Is this the only crime where even some pacifists scream for violent acts to be committed to the offender?

Why do a great number of people who pass "tougher legislation" wind up being caught doing what they bark so loudly against?

If some cultures see things differently, what makes us right and them wrong?

THESE ARE LEGITIMATE QUESTIONS.

These are some areas I think we could have good open discussion on. I think all opinions here are needed.

Let's keep the ball rolling...

[sugrmag]

Yes there is a big difference between a 19 yo and a 14 yo getting married, and an adult raping a 5 year old. My mother caught a man the other checking out her 5 year old daughter in the grocery store. She had a skirt on and bent over to pick something up. Naturally, she just bent over and didn't squat like older girls and women do. She saw the man turn his head like he was trying to look up her skirt. Then he smirked at my mom like "What are you going to do about it?" That is sick.

I looked on the local sex offender registry and I had over 20 living within 5 miles of my house. Most were from offenses against children. How in the hell are these people not still in jail? It also showed the distance between their homes and schools. It is not surprising how many live in close proximity to elementary schools.

Really, I don't know if I could control my anger and rage if some sick fuck raped one of my young girls. I really don't.

[Libertine]

I see your point, but anger and rage should not be what our justice system is based upon. Revenge and Guilty Until Proven Innocent is what the American system TRULY is, and not beneficial to society in any way other than promoting "eye for an eye" and persecution before trial.

Sex Registries are meant to protect children, but I feel they do nothing to protect children and everything to escalate one crime over another. I do not believe someone accused of Statutory Rape or smacking a girl's ass is more of a threat to society than a MURDERER who has been let out of prison, or a KIDNAPPER or someone with a rap sheet full of physical assault. I think the reason that "sex crimes" are cherry-picked to have a registry is purely the puritan philosophy America takes with sex in general.

The U.S. is the greatest hypocritical nation when it comes to sex overall and especially what constitutes a sex crime.

But, that's all the legal mess.

We are talking about the actual mind of a pedophile here. I can't accept the fact that some people are "born evil" or "possessed by Satan" and all the medieval talk, but I do believe that these people are psychologically and physiologically unhealthy. They need treatment, counseling, drug therapy and to be quarantined from children. Perhaps a lifetime ankle monitor as well.

But, I think the registry hurts more than it actually helps society. And so does the violence and rage against these sick, sick people. Just my opinion.

There are better ways.

[Pointbreak]

I think they are sick for having the urge, but evil for acting on it.

[lankymidget]

Interesting..

I find it easier to think of if as an Evil that requires a sick, or a weak mind, to act on it..

[Shane99X]

I think they are sick for having the urge, but evil for acting on it.
Agreed.

[Libertine]

I don't believe in "evil" myself--in the form of "satan" or "demons".

I believe behaviors are either harmful or beneficial. I don't use the terms "good" and "evil", because things are truly relative to circumstance.

I believe these people have an illness that is harmful to society and need to be stopped (#1) and need help (#2).

Barbaric revenge tactics, inhumane torturous practices and warehousing (without counseling) are just as criminal, inhumane and unethical. Furthermore they are not overall beneficial to society in any degree.

[lankymidget]

Every society, every age, has had retribution as it's basic method for teaching right from wrong..

I'm all for helping the individual that commit these CRIMES, and for us helping to make for a better society, but, I do believe some form of punishment is still needed.

[Libertine]

You are correct. Retribution has always been the top dog when it comes to solutions to such problems.

I happen to believe we'll overcome that one day and recognize that revenge tactics make us no better than the criminals themselves.

[lankymidget]

That's why I chose "retribution" instead of revenge.

I'm against the death penalty because we waste the chance to learn what happens to the mind to allow certain thoughts to consume it.

I'm against leaving people to rot in jails, but not to restricting the ability for these people to feed thier sickness.

[Libertine]

You sound kind of like me then. I maybe a BIT more radical, though! :D ha ha...

[lankymidget]

I guess you must be pretty radical!


But then, I've never met a paedophile, and reckon I'd feel more than uncomfortable if I knew I was in same room as one...

That's the moment when you shouldn't be able to decide what works best.

[scratcho]

If I'm not mistaken,most researchers of pedophilia have concluded that these behaviors are not correctable.So, if this is true and the urges and the acting out of these urges continue--these people need to be confined.For the duration if necessary.As an example of what might happen with ME under certain circumstances---one day my son didn't get off the school bus and I didn't know where he was .After calling a few friends,I found out he got off at a friends house because a big kid punched his lunch pail flat and threatened to hurt him.I just about ruined my car getting to their house,drove up on their lawn ,banged on their door and told them "I'll kick everybodies asses that live here if anyone even looked at my son again"!Now,being a fairly gentle person,I was surprised that my own actions were so radical.So let's put it this way---you never know how you'll act when something has been perpetrated against those you love and protect.So I hope I never get into a situation worse than what I described--#1--obviously the child would suffer probable irrepairable damage --but I'm also sure the fucker that fooled with my grandchildren would also come to great harm.If the checks and balances that make most of us rational, caring beings toward children--anyone's children ,are not present in some people and these urges manifest,then these flawed beings don't deserve to walk among us.Fuck counseling--people can say anything.And do.

[mushie18]

Thats a paradox. You can't teach someone whos dead.
i was only joking.:p

I think they need help, whether it's medication/ a pyschologist, etc.

[Libertine]

Well, perhaps you can start your own euthanasia program. Killing people seems to be the usual solution. If the human zoo doesn't work.

When will we turn from retributive tactics and search for more progressive means?

If these behaviors are not "correctable" why are these pedophilias given mandatory therapy? And furthermore, ANY BEHAVIOR CAN BE CORRECTED...and without cruel and unusual medieval revenge tactics.

It wasn't too long ago that many people believed that only spankings could stop certain children or problems. Or the DEATH PENALTY was the only deterrent for certain crimes. I think NOW that those theories have been turned on their heads.

The progressive philosophy is never to give up and say "can't be done", but to continue and further one's research and science. It CAN be done and it WILL be.

It's just a matter of time. In the meantime, we need more progressive and alternative methods of dealing with the problem.

If I'm not mistaken,most researchers of pedophilia have concluded that these behaviors are not correctable.So, if this is true and the urges and the acting out of these urges continue--these people need to be confined.For the duration if necessary.As an example of what might happen with ME under certain circumstances---one day my son didn't get off the school bus and I didn't know where he was .After calling a few friends,I found out he got off at a friends house because a big kid punched his lunch pail flat and threatened to hurt him.I just about ruined my car getting to their house,drove up on their lawn ,banged on their door and told them "I'll kick everybodies asses that live here if anyone even looked at my son again"!Now,being a fairly gentle person,I was surprised that my own actions were so radical.So let's put it this way---you never know how you'll act when something has been perpetrated against those you love and protect.So I hope I never get into a situation worse than what I described--#1--obviously the child would suffer probable irrepairable damage --but I'm also sure the fucker that fooled with my grandchildren would also come to great harm.If the checks and balances that make most of us rational, caring beings toward children--anyone's children ,are not present in some people and these urges manifest,then these flawed beings don't deserve to walk among us.Fuck counseling--people can say anything.And do.

[Libertine]

Well, as I said, I knew one and he was a relative. You kind of see things from a different light when you see the obvious ethical dilemma this sick soul was going through.

I guess I just don't have many knee-jerk reactions. I mean I knew how he was from my own childhood and his own (at least from very early ages), so the most difficult part was wanting to hate him, but feeling a lot of anguish for him (as he seemed to hate himself and hadn't even acted on it).

No, I don't sympathize with molestors at all, but I have seen the angst of the psychological effects that the illness of pedophilia plays on the mind of the pedophile. And I don't believe castration or death should be the cure.

I tend to reject barbaric practices whether used in crimes or in "punishments".

I guess you must be pretty radical!


But then, I've never met a paedophile, and reckon I'd feel more than uncomfortable if I knew I was in same room as one...

That's the moment when you shouldn't be able to decide what works best.

[cynical_otter]

whether it's sickness or evil, pedophiles should not be out in the public. They should be kept away from children for the rest of their lives.

No ifs,ans, or buts about it.

[Last Stand]

Most pedophiles have been sexually abused, or beaten as children - . Then most of us would be pedophiles.

[Pressed_Rat]

Anyone who would harm a child is sick AND evil.

[Last Stand]

Anyone who would harm a child is sick AND evil. That includes our Airforce as well.

[Pressed_Rat]

That includes our Airforce as well.No shit.

[rangerdanger]

It depends on what your defintion of children is.

If you mean anyone under 18, then most people in the U.S. are pedo's because most people in the U.S. have had sex with someone before that person was 18.

Many men are attracted to young teen-age girls. It's not a question of morals or lack thereof; it's biological.
Girls release their most viable eggs early, soon after they begin menstruating.

And what about kids who get together in someone's garage to play "doctor"? Are they all pedophiles?
If it's an adult who plays "doctor" with a child does it do more harm to the child than if it's 2 children?

A friend of mine has to register as a sex offender where ever he lives for the rest of his life.
Know why? Because when he was 18 (30 years ago) he was caught screwing his 17-year old g/f and got convicted of a sex crime.

[cynical_otter]

It depends on what your defintion of children is.

If you mean anyone under 18, then most people in the U.S. are pedo's because most people in the U.S. have had sex with someone before that person was 18.

Many men are attracted to young teen-age girls. It's not a question of morals or lack thereof; it's biological.
Girls release their most viable eggs early, soon after they begin menstruating.

And what about kids who get together in someone's garage to play "doctor"? Are they all pedophiles?
If it's an adult who plays "doctor" with a child does it do more harm to the child than if it's 2 children?

A friend of mine has to register as a sex offender where ever he lives for the rest of his life.
Know why? Because when he was 18 (30 years ago) he was caught screwing his 17-year old g/f and got convicted of a sex crime.

Are you stupid or something?

Kids that have sexual experiences with other kids are not pedophiles. They are both kids.

A pedophile is an adult who seeks sexual relations with children below the age of consent. A pedophile is a child molestor.

Was your friend still in high school at the time? Because if he was, then he probably has a nice lawsuit on his hands. In most states and counties, an 18 year old still in high school is not considered an independent adult who's subject to statutory rape charges. It's illogical to do so considering that 18 year olds go to the same school and even hang out with 14/15 year olds. I was 15 and my boyfriend was 18, he was a senior and I was a freshman.

What are they supposed to do? Put a giant wall up barring the 18 year olds from all the other students?

Of course, though, once graduation has occurred...all bets are off. It seems extreme but many parents don't want their minor children involved with adults of any age.

And addressing the games of Doctor. It is a proven medical fact that children who experience sexual molestation from adults are mentally and emotionally scarred for life. Adults should not be playing sexual games with kids. period.

[Libertine]

If you mean anyone under 18, then most people in the U.S. are pedo's because most people in the U.S. have had sex with someone before that person was 18.



:D Sad, but true. Hell, I got married to my girlfriend (now wife) when she was 17. I was 22.

[lankymidget]

And what about kids who get together in someone's garage to play "doctor"? Are they all pedophiles?
If it's an adult who plays "doctor" with a child does it do more harm to the child than if it's 2 children?Huge difference is that children learn things like this at pretty much the same pace... Both learning... Adults are supposed to have already learnt, and there isn't a single shred of justification for grown ups "teaching" children in this way!

Which effectively means that any sexual contact between adults and children is forbidden. Statutary rape allows the same type of discrepency as children playing Doctors and Nurses, but it only makes for a more lenient crime (bad phrasing I know!).

Finding our sexuality should mean, on the whole, doing something we enjoy, with somebody we trust. Once we've found our sexuality, we're obliged to act responsibly towards everybody of the opposite sex.

.....

I still say paedophilia is a sickness, but am adding another description to what is too vague a word for what we all loathe.. I think paedophiles are distorted, not evil. Normal life has a way of keeping a check on making sure we don't stray from the "knowing right from wrong" path. Our peers nudge us back onto it before our sense of rightousness becomes unbalanced. One way or another, paedophiles have had that removed, so that, even when they know it's wrong, other factors rule over their thoughts that kinda say it's still okay to give in to their urges.. That perhaps nobody gets harmed, or that they themselves won't get punished..

[Last Stand]

Are you stupid or something?

Kids that have sexual experiences with other kids are not pedophiles. They are both kids.

A pedophile is an adult who seeks sexual relations with children below the age of consent. A pedophile is a child molestor.

Was your friend still in high school at the time? Because if he was, then he probably has a nice lawsuit on his hands. In most states and counties, an 18 year old still in high school is not considered an independent adult who's subject to statutory rape charges. It's illogical to do so considering that 18 year olds go to the same school and even hang out with 14/15 year olds. I was 15 and my boyfriend was 18, he was a senior and I was a freshman.

What are they supposed to do? Put a giant wall up barring the 18 year olds from all the other students?

Of course, though, once graduation has occurred...all bets are off. It seems extreme but many parents don't want their minor children involved with adults of any age.

And addressing the games of Doctor. It is a proven medical fact that children who experience sexual molestation from adults are mentally and emotionally scarred for life. Adults should not be playing sexual games with kids. period.Something like what Mr Bush does with the americans people. i see.

[sundew]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aristartle
Most pedophiles have been sexually abused, or beaten as children - .


Then most of us would be pedophiles.Last Stand, that is a complete logical fallacy.

An example of this logic:
If someone is human (A), then she is mortal (B).
Anna is mortal (B).
Therefore Anna is human (A).

But in fact Anna can be a cat; very much a mortal, but not a human one.

So assuming most paedophiles have been abused and beaten, it still does not follow that everyone who has been abused is a paedophile.

As an easier example, assume everyone who has AIDS has had sex.
This does need mean everyone who has had sex has AIDS.

[Jedi]

sick and people who harm others are evil, not all pedophiles act on their urges, if a pedophile goes for help before he/she acts on their desires, they will be happier in their lives and do not have to break the law and rot in jail .

[rangerdanger]

"As an easier example, assume everyone who has AIDS has had sex..."

Wrong.
A person can get aids from a blood transfusion, or sharing needles.

I've read that nearly EVERY person who seeks sex with children has had sexual contact when they were a child themselves (although not everyone that has had sexual contact as a child goes on to molest children as an adult).

Just like people who beat their kids (another form of child abuse) were almost always beaten as a child. They learn at an early age that physical violence is an acceptable/preferred way of dealing with problems.

I think people who seek sex with children should recieve treatment during incarceration to at least accept that sexual contact with children WILL NOT be tolerated, and they should be monitered and recieve counciling after release.

[Last Stand]

"As an easier example, assume everyone who has AIDS has had sex..."

Wrong.
I think people who seek sex with children should recieve treatment during incarceration to at least accept that sexual contact with children WILL NOT be tolerated, and they should be monitered and recieve counciling after release. i agree.

[Last Stand]

[QUOTE=..rangerdanger
I think people who seek sex with children should recieve treatment during incarceration to at least accept that sexual contact with children WILL NOT be tolerated, and they should be monitered and recieve counciling after release.[/QUOTE]....... At what age do we determine them as childrens? .

[sundew]

"As an easier example, assume everyone who has AIDS has had sex..."

Wrong.
A person can get aids from a blood transfusion, or sharing needles.Rangerdanger, I said 'assume' as it was a hypothetical example to show the logic that "Last Stand" was using, was incorrect.
I did use a bad example obviously though....
I of course know that many people get AIDS from needles, transfusions, work-related accidents etc... (speck of blood in your eye from being a trauma nurse for example! I think i've heard of that once...)

To clear any confusion, the logical flaw was actually a common one which I was trying to point out... in the following form: (Known as 'Affirming the Consequent')

If A, then B.
B.
Therefore, A.

Aristartle said that
"Most pedophiles have been sexually abused, or beaten as children - ."
Last Stand said
"Then most of us would be pedophiles."

If all paedophiles have been beaten, does this mean all people who have been beaten are paedophiles? Clearly not!
I know it sounds like i'm being really picky, and I probably am (haha) but I've got nothing against Last Stand, or you at all, no way, nothing personal, it's just that vague or illogical arguments are the cause of much confusion and at their worst can even start wars and be used to decieve people. Sensationalist media rely on bad logic that appeals only to emotions!
So I decided not to just 'let it go' for once, even though this isn't a Philosophy forum.

Anyhow, back to Paedophiles...some people have made some good points that I can't add anything to.
But one thing, I think sometimes there are certain situations or social institutions such as celibate catholic priests in charge of classes of young boys as one example, which do tend to foster this type of activity.
So I think that society does hold responsibility to an extent in cases like that.
Lock a grown man into a life of chastity without healthy sexual contact with his age and social peers, a whole lot of ritualised/indoctrinated guilt followed by the always-available "release" of confession and forgiveness, and then put this man in the company of only teen and pre-pubescent boys who are encouraged to trust and/or confide in him.

What do you think might happen? *shakes head*....
There's bound to be a 'statistical fallout' from that scenario and it's pretty obvious that there actually is.

[sundew]

how is pedophilia not a natural phenomenon?... as soon as an animal in nature goes into heat the first time... she's naturally ready for sex... in our society a pedophile can be anyone fucking someone under sixteen years old... when infact a female human can become pregnant at the age of 9...Paedophilia is a man-made phenomenon by virtue of the fact it's NAMED as such. We give this activity a name, a symbol that carries a rancid stigma. (And rightly so in the cases of true criminal paedophiles who abuse kids etc..)

The difference in our society, is just our capability and need for self-reflection and rumination upon our own activities complete with moral judgements and even laws based on them. A cat or dog might defecate on a busy sidewalk. We generally don't, because it's socially not acceptable. So our way of living, as humans, is much more complex than a normal animal. I don't know where the grey area starts and stops.
When I was 15 or 16, if an attractive 20-year old wanted to have sex, I probably would have loved the idea. Whether that would have ended up being a bad or a good thing for me I don't know.

I'm sure there are many instances of older mature animals trying to mate with very young but still anatomically 'mature' animals of their own kind, but it's not paedophilia because it's not labelled as such.
Also in the animal world, your offspring are born, or hatched etc.. and that's it. As long as you can keep it alive and nourished for the time until it's ready to fend for itself, then you're ok.

A younger girl might be physically ready for sex and to be able to carry a baby to full term, but our social system is based on that general age area of 18 to 21ish as being an 'adult' and our education system, laws, family values, movies etc.. all follow this general idea.

If a 9 year old could get pregnant, could she still operate in all the other ways society expects of a mother other than the sex and baby delivery part?
Could she emotionally handle it all?
Could she support the family financially if she had to?
Could she take care of the baby well enough for it to live without repercussions?
All of THESE things would be the parts where we differ from animals and probably are part of why our paedophilia laws are the way they are.

I can't remember the numbers unfortunately, but generally speaking, animals have a very fast turnaround from being born, to being self-sufficient.
Humans take AGES and our society reflects this, and perhaps the sex and age laws are a reflection on our slow rate of social maturity compared to other animals.

[Libertine]

There is some extremely good dialogue going on in here.

Shit, I think I'll just sit back and read for a while. :)

[wandering_okie]

Most everyone who are not pedophiles revile pedophiles, but for what reason do you shudder at such a practice?

Do you think pedophiles are sick and in need of either psychological counseling, drug therapy or both whilst being quarantined from children?

OR

Do you believe pedophiles are "evil", overrun by "Satan" or "demons" and needed to be warehoused in prisons ONLY or perhaps EXECUTED?

It's your opinion. So feel free to be honest.
I think the "possessed by Satan" thing is a cop-out. These guys are obviously sick and need healing. A compassionate society defines itself by how it deals
with things that are outrageous. Do we abandon all hope for these sick individuals? I don't think so. When we all rise above our outrage, then maybe we can focus on creative ways to heal these people of this condition..not just avenge their deeds.

[Libertine]

I think the "possessed by Satan" thing is a cop-out. These guys are obviously sick and need healing. A compassionate society defines itself by how it deals
with things that are outrageous. Do we abandon all hope for these sick individuals? I don't think so. When we all rise above our outrage, then maybe we can focus on creative ways to heal these people of this condition..not just avenge their deeds.

Well, I agree completely.

[sundew]

Ahh to be so lucid in one paragraph!
I agree too.

[sunshine and pearls]

I don't fall for the possessed by satan crap either. I also agree that it is a cop out. I also have a really hard time with not the question, but with my own believes. because of coures these people are sick and need to be treated, but they must not be around children. My difficulty comes in my own reaction, I too have known ped. yet still i don't think that I would be able to control a violent reaction if someone were to touch one of my girls. I usually am very non-violent, but this subject reaches right into my gut and twists and leaves me with fear for my children and knowing that this feeling is there without anything happening leads me to believe that i would lose complete control.
that being said we as a society do need to find a way to deal with abusers of children and I think that the stiffest penalties with out death should be manditory where children are concerned. I'm not talking about teenagers or rape or stagitory(sp) rape, I'm speaking of children. there are laws in place for the other situations.
I also can non agree that sex offender lists make the situation worse. I think that it is very important for parents to know if there are offenders in the area where they live where thier children go to school. I also think that offenders should not be allowed to live within a certain range of school nor out of some sort of facility such a half-way house especially for sex offenders so that they may be monitored at all times.
so yes they are sick, and need treatment, but that sickness makes them evil in the end and i do think people can be evil or we wouldn't have to discuss crimes against others they would be non existant.
peace.

[Last Stand]

who mention satan?

[cynical_otter]

how is pedophilia not a natural phenomenon?... as soon as an animal in nature goes into heat the first time... she's naturally ready for sex... in our society a pedophile can be anyone fucking someone under sixteen years old... when infact a female human can become pregnant at the age of 9...
WTFery! Are you a member of NAMBLA or something?

Does that make it right for an adult man to go out have sex with 9 year olds then? What if she gets pregnant? Does he have to "adopt" her and raise her and his baby?

Just because a girl can get pregnant at 9 doesn't mean she should. She doesn't even fully understand what sex and the consequences of sex mean. She's just a little kid.

Quit defending pedophiles already, it's vomit-inducing.

[scratcho]

I had a friend that was doing something with kids--we (his wife,friends) never really found out exactly what he was doing..He was set up by a girl who was facing some kind of charge by the police and setting him up,I guess was supposed to lighten her sentence.He was arrested at a fast food joint in Fresno,taken to his house(for what reason ,I don't know),but he asked to be handcuffed in front so he could tie his dog up.When released from the cuffs ,he hauled ass,jumped a fence,went into his bedroom and shot his brains all over the room.Now as I posted days earlier,I have always thought people who take advantage of children should be treated VERY harshly.However--maybe I'm wrong.I don't know--he was one of the most fun,great and generous guys I've ever known.I ran with him in high school.In thinking about the situation--I'm sure I could have forgiven him for whatever he'd done.But maybe not.So it's a dichotomy for me--and an unsolvable one--mainly because he's dead as the proverbial door knob.I have always read that pedophiles CAN'T be cured--and they'll always be a threat to children.Maybe re-hab IS the answer--depends on whose ox is being gored,as it were.

[canadian_boy]

I think the "possessed by Satan" thing is a cop-out. These guys are obviously sick and need healing. A compassionate society defines itself by how it deals
with things that are outrageous. Do we abandon all hope for these sick individuals? I don't think so. When we all rise above our outrage, then maybe we can focus on creative ways to heal these people of this condition..not just avenge their deeds. I think i agree with what you said
It makes lotsa sense :)

[YankNBurn]

I do not understand why this in Politics but my input is simple. Instead of the sex offenders having to register to get out becuase they feel they will re-offend I think we should offer on TV public castrations, no pain meds, then quickly stop the bleeding with some sort of hot metal to seal the wound, when he wakes up he is free to leave, no dick, no nuts, no drive. If that dont cure em and they re-offend them how about public on TV executions, slow, painfull, maybe even have a doctor there to wake em up if they pass out too soon. Like a 1 hour television special that cand be a 2 part series if ya pass out too soon. Cant be pay per view though, you want the message to get out there nice and clear. I am sure the rate of that crime will drop alot then and if one child is spared then it was well worth it.

[Last Stand]

should we castrate parents that circumcise theyr kids and also list theyr address to the public . ?

[YankNBurn]

There would be no need to list the address of a pedophile who served thier time after they were castrated. As fot circumsition, I believe that since they passed laws to stop female circumsition then the same should be past for males. I believe it should be up to the person who's dick it is.

[Last Stand]

I Think Parents Who Circumcise Theyr Kids Should Keept Off Limit To Other Childrens And Address And Information Posted About This Genital Butchers .

[Libertine]

I do not understand why this in Politics but my input is simple. Instead of the sex offenders having to register to get out becuase they feel they will re-offend I think we should offer on TV public castrations, no pain meds, then quickly stop the bleeding with some sort of hot metal to seal the wound, when he wakes up he is free to leave, no dick, no nuts, no drive. If that dont cure em and they re-offend them how about public on TV executions, slow, painfull, maybe even have a doctor there to wake em up if they pass out too soon. Like a 1 hour television special that cand be a 2 part series if ya pass out too soon. Cant be pay per view though, you want the message to get out there nice and clear. I am sure the rate of that crime will drop alot then and if one child is spared then it was well worth it.You would've made a great Inquisitor in Spain. He got off on torture too! :)

Your answer is just as head sick as the crime itself and, in some cases, worse!

I hardly think barbaric brutality is the answer.

[Last Stand]

You would've made a great Inquistor in Spain. You're answer is just as head sick as the crime itself and, in some cases, worse!

I hardly think barbaric brutality is the answer.UNLESS the pedo was a brutal rapist and a murder himself.

[Last Stand]

cut her tits off.

[Libertine]

Aristartle is right. There is a better way and it doesn't involve mutilation of any kind.

[wandering_okie]

You seem like a really smart guy Libertine. Help me with this one. (Please!)
Let's see..if I remember one of fascinating (yawn) classes of Dr. Brown (Psych Professor), those tendencies are centered in amygdala and hippocampus mostly. Balances of certain enzymes and excitory and inhibitory neurotransmitters affect neuronal connections in those hubs. And those connections affect behavior. Doesn't it make sense that some researcher somewhere will find a way to change that balance by turning off/on some receptor site in that area. Maybe they can create a time release chemical or implant that can be injected etc. periodically. Thoughts?
I'm not a supporter of these peoples' behaviors, but I don't believe in giving up hope that they can be helped. Science has had amazing successes with depression, epilepsy, and other conditions of the brain. Why not this?

[Libertine]

You seem like a really smart guy Libertine. Help me with this one. (Please!)
Let's see..if I remember one of fascinating (yawn) classes of Dr. Brown (Psych Professor), those tendencies are centered in amygdala and hippocampus mostly. Balances of certain enzymes and excitory and inhibitory neurotransmitters affect neuronal connections in those hubs. And those connections affect behavior. Doesn't it make sense that some researcher somewhere will find a way to change that balance by turning off/on some receptor site in that area. Maybe they can create a time release chemical or implant that can be injected etc. periodically. Thoughts?
I'm not a supporter of these peoples' behaviors, but I don't believe in giving up hope that they can be helped. Science has had amazing successes with depression, epilepsy, and other conditions of the brain. Why not this?You seem like a really smart guy. Ha ha...:)

I think there has to be a way and I have a real strong desire to see more progressive approaches used on these types of problems. I think that science has more than just the answers that we give it credit for. I believe that someone on the level of Timothy Leary's creativity and the scientific intelligence level of Hawking (in the medicinal field) could surely find something.

You have some good thoughts. Good ideas.

[robineatsdogfood]

one bullet to the head no questions asked

[Sininabin]

I've read through a few pages of this:

What can i say...., well i've never raped a girl but oh i forget i'm not a pedo becasue i'm still under 18, hmm so then does that mean i can do anything i want with minors?- never thought of that before, i think i'm being legal

But something in my life is coming up, and the hold for younger girls (maybe 7-10) was very strong in my life, but i'm slightly different then most cases, never being molested or abused (not that i can remeber) most likely came from her curiosity and my desire to be physical with someone(like stated before no sex or rape). In my case i am and was very morally challeged espically rescently she has been growing farhter and farther away

And to say frankly is getting tired of m shit, but right now i'm at a good place in my life; i've kissed a few girls but when it is really your frist you know she made my mind bloom and for awhile if it really dies down to nothing, i'll be clean, after her it was amazing how quickly my desire went away

If i was voting i would say sick and confied for life, but of course if i was every caught for it i would want something much less severe

If this could be biologically be removed, all my passions and zest would be lost with it, for my want comes from a want for love and a want to be close and so without those want and the hope of fullfilling them i would rather be dead

[Last Stand]

one bullet to the head no questions askedHeroin blamed for death of boy



13-year-old spent night using drugs and drinking, police say



By JAIME ARON
Associated Press

BEDFORD -- Derrick Lee Drowse seemed like an ordinary enough seventh-grader. The 13-year-old played football on his street and sang in the school choir. Teachers considered him well-behaved, and he made A's and B's.

On Friday, a new image emerged: drug user.

Derrick died in his home Thursday morning of a suspected heroin overdose after a night that police said included using other narcotics and drinking. Officers found needle marks on his arms and feet, 2 to 3 grams of black tar heroin in his bedroom, and marijuana and needles elsewhere in the house.

"It doesn't necessarily shock you that heroin is in the community. What's shocking and disturbing is that it's in the hands of a 13-year-old," said Bedford police Deputy Chief David Flory.

"I've been here 18 years, three with the narcotics task force, and I don't remember a 13-year-old ever being involved with heroin, not even 15- or 16-year-olds. We hope it's the exception and not the rule," he said.

An autopsy had yet to be performed, and toxicology tests weren't expected for about six weeks, Flory said, adding that evidence strongly indicated that heroin was to blame.

The death was reported around 10 a.m. Thursday by the 17-year-old son of the common-law husband of Derrick's mother. The four lived in a duplex in this quiet, working-class suburb midway between Dallas and Fort Worth.

Police interviewed Derrick's mother and the 17-year-old's father. When the older teen was asked where Derrick got the heroin, he asked for an attorney, Flory said.

"I don't think there was any strong indication they knew what was going on," said Flory.

Drug possession charges could be filed, he said, depending on toxicology results and fingerprint analyses.

Another possible charge is endangerment to a child, a state jail felony punishable by up to two years and a $10,000 fine.

"We're trying to find out whether they knew about the drugs, encouraged it ... that's the kind of things we need to know," Flory said.

Derrick is the second area teen-ager to die of a heroin-related overdose in seven weeks, adding North Texas to the growing list of places nationwide where the drug is making an unwelcome comeback.

On Nov. 12, 17-year-old Todd Mathews of Grapevine -- about five miles away -- died from an overdose he had taken at his brother's Dallas home, police said. He was a high school senior with a 4.0 grade-point average, a member of the National Honor Society and the swim team and he planned a Navy career.

On Friday, most of Derrick's neighbors said they hardly knew the boy or the other members of his household. Several people recalled seeing him play football with the 17-year-old.

"He seemed pretty nice; a normal kid," said neighborhood youngster Ludo Zywczak, one of the few people of Derrick's age in the area. "I was surprised to hear a 13-year-old died of heroin. It is pretty shocking."

Elaine Shaw, whose house is around the corner, has a 13-year-old son, but she said the two didn't know each other. She believes their only contact came last winter during an impromptu snowball fight.

Shaw, who home-schools her 13- and 5-year-old sons, said she considered the drugs an isolated problem that could hit any community.

"I'm not that afraid," she said. "I think it's kind of random."

School officials also said they felt confident that heroin isn't a problem in their hallways. Flory pointed out that the school district was the state's first to institute the DARE (Drug Abuse Resistance Education) awareness program in the 1980s. A recent national survey indicated that teen usage of the drug tripled from 1988 to 1994, the latest year for which data is available.

[wandering_okie]

I've read through a few pages of this:

What can i say...., well i've never raped a girl but oh i forget i'm not a pedo becasue i'm still under 18, hmm so then does that mean i can do anything i want with minors?- never thought of that before, i think i'm being legal

But something in my life is coming up, and the hold for younger girls (maybe 7-10) was very strong in my life, but i'm slightly different then most cases, never being molested or abused (not that i can remeber) most likely came from her curiosity and my desire to be physical with someone(like stated before no sex or rape). In my case i am and was very morally challeged espically rescently she has been growing farhter and farther away

And to say frankly is getting tired of m shit, but right now i'm at a good place in my life; i've kissed a few girls but when it is really your frist you know she made my mind bloom and for awhile if it really dies down to nothing, i'll be clean, after her it was amazing how quickly my desire went away

If i was voting i would say sick and confied for life, but of course if i was every caught for it i would want something much less severe

If this could be biologically be removed, all my passions and zest would be lost with it, for my want comes from a want for love and a want to be close and so without those want and the hope of fullfilling them i would rather be deadLast Stand, throw your worst at this one. Meanwhile, I'm going to go vomit.

[lankymidget]

If you're saying that you (and most of us at some time or another) possess the mental capacity to be a paedophile.. I'm in total agreement.

Modern Western society is perfectly well balanced to purge us of these thoughts before we ever act on them, but still goes over the top in it's treatment of sick minds..

I still haven't read in these pages anything that sounds like a good psycological treatment, but I know it's the way forward.

[wandering_okie]

Ok, I'm just gonna lay things out for you. I wake up each morning and try to greet this world with patience and compassion. I attempt to lend some intelligence, and aspire to be part of the solution..not part of the problem. I offer remedy to those who seem to be clueless, in the hope that the things I've seen on the roads I've traveled may help someone avoid an errant turn down a dead end street. What's the point? Everywhere I look, I see people talking about their insidious actions, (with their fingers in their ears, so they can't hear us)
irrespective of the effects these actions have on others. People indifferent to the eventual consequences of bragging about their stupidity to others just like them. They tell us, "I am 17, and I've been doing meth and popping 9 year old girls since I was 12". I realize that some of these things are said purely to outrage most of us, and draw cheers from the rest, but is there no restraint left at all? Are these guys going to just continue justifying everything with
Oh Well....? I'm just nauseous........and pissed off! I used to see these forums as a respite. I saw them as place to go and talk with people of like mind. I like to remember what it used to be like. I was just a kid in the sixties, but I spent a lot of time with Hippies later. I admired them, because they talked about inspired solutions. not violent ones. Can't say that I remember any of them bragging about being a pedophile or giving drugs to little kids. Sure there were drugs, but adult used not little kids. Sure there was sex, but not little kids. Many of this younger crowd call themselves Hippies. I think they sully the memory of people that cared about something other than just being outrageous. I try to always post positive messages. I apologize if I've upset anyone. But, sometimes you have to speak, even if your voice shakes.

[lankymidget]

Ok, I'm just gonna lay things out for you. I wake up each morning and try to greet this world with patience and compassion. I attempt to lend some intelligence, and aspire to be part of the solution..not part of the problem. I offer remedy to those who seem to be clueless, in the hope that the things I've seen on the roads I've traveled may help someone avoid an errant turn down a dead end street. What's the point? Everywhere I look, I see people talking about their insidious actions, (with their fingers in their ears, so they can't hear us)
irrespective of the effects these actions have on others. People indifferent to the eventual consequences of bragging about their stupidity to others just like them. They tell us, "I am 17, and I've been doing meth and popping 9 year old girls since I was 12". I realize that some of these things are said purely to outrage most of us, and draw cheers from the rest, but is there no restraint left at all? Are these guys going to just continue justifying everything with
Oh Well....? I'm just nauseous........
It is a sick sick world we live in...


And I apologise for not catching yours and Libertine's brilliant replies earlier..

Libertine doesn't paint such a dark picture of the world that implies we're stuck with a problem that will never disappear, yet you do.

Science and society, possibly a more balanced view on morality, holds the key to understanding and dealing with what is really a very old sickness.. I think the fact that it was hidden, and almost accepted, for so long has made it harder to deal with, and now pure hatred prevails above rationality..

You two know more about scientific advances than I, and I find it encouraging that if laymen believe it's the way forward, then scientists and psychologists really must have answer they haven't shared yet.

[wandering_okie]

Libertine has too much class to rant like I just did. If you've ever really read my posts, you'd know that I don't give up on people. I love this world. Maybe too much sometimes. I'm just heartsick right now. That is why my posts seem a little dis-jointed.

[Libertine]

Great posts, guys!

I think the thing that sets me (and some others here) apart from the rest is that I abhor and reject violent "solutions" to these problems because I feel that they don't solve anything.

It's just a "dog eat dog", "eye for an eye" philosophy until everyone ends up bitten and blind. There is a positive way to deal with all issues and there is a way to deal with pedophilia. Keep in mind that not all pedophiles are child molestors. Many are people who are dealing with this issue, are afraid to come out and say anything (for the violent reactions they'd get), and have never harmed a child, but suffer with this.

I don't have sympathy for molestors or attackers of children. And as a father of two, I am only human--and as such my rage may indeed get the best of me. But, what I am saying is that rage and revenge is no way to deal with any issue--not even this one.

There are alternatives to the medieval practices that some call for here and I think we need to explore those rationally and see which solutions are the most beneficial for all parties involved and try to take a more preventive approach to ending molestation and other sexual crimes without the violations of civil liberties or human rights.

[wandering_okie]

My friend Libertine, I'm sorry for kicking over the trash cans back there. I guess I need to quit reading each and every post in the thread before I reply. The ol' "bullet in the head" and then the "7-10 year old" just really hit me.

[Libertine]

My friend Libertine, I'm sorry for kicking over the trash cans back there. I guess I need to quit reading each and every post in the thread before I reply. The ol' "bullet in the head" and then the "7-10 year old" just really hit me.

I completely understand that. We all get riled up sometimes. :D

[wandering_okie]

Libertine, I know this is somewhat off-topic, but I just have to say it. When I was a young man, I got picked on a lot. I got a lot of the "scumbag tree hugger" thrown at me. I used to fight back...physically. I met a brilliant man that was a martial arts instructor. He taught me that violence stems from a lack of forethought, a lack of patience. He showed me that caring is noble, and effective when tempered by mental discipline and direction. Violence teaches nothing per se, because it allows us to regress to our "base" instincts-our fight or flight responses. If we fail to act from a conscious understanding of our most inspired options, then WE regress to a position no higher than that which we choose to punish. If we treat those who follow their "id" with actions delegated by "our id", we deny ourselves the opportunity to evolve. We fail those who follow us, by not giving a foundation of sensibility to build from.

[Libertine]

That sounds like a philosophy that I embrace. I have been trained in BJJ, but I would only use it in emergency situations and ONLY to put out a fire (so to speak).

I completely agree with your instructor's views.

Libertine, I know this is somewhat off-topic, but I just have to say it. When I was a young man, I got picked on a lot. I got a lot of the "scumbag tree hugger" thrown at me. I used to fight back...physically. I met a brilliant man that was a martial arts instructor. He taught me that violence stems from a lack of forethought, a lack of patience. He showed me that caring is noble, and effective when tempered by mental discipline and direction. Violence teaches nothing per se, because it allows us to regress to our "base" instincts-our fight or flight responses. If we fail to act from a conscious understanding of our most inspired options, then WE regress to a position no higher than that which we choose to punish. If we treat those who follow their "id" with actions delegated by "our id", we deny ourselves the opportunity to evolve. We fail those who follow us, by not giving a foundation of sensibility to build from.

[wandering_okie]

sorry, still off-topic.
I studied Ju-jitsu then Aikido. I think the idea is probably inspired by Ueshiba

To quote the Omoto-ryo (one of OSensei's major influences and one of the pillars of Aikido)
"Mankind's role is to fulfill his heaven-sent purpose through a sincere heart that is in harmony with all creation and loves all things"
I know, I'm still working on the harmony part.

Best wishes to you and yours. w_o

[Libertine]

I would like to hear more progressive views on this subject.

[verseau_miracle]

"No man can fall any lower than the lowest that is within each and every one of you, just as no saint can climb any higher than the highest that is in you also"-Kahlil Gibran.

...For Gods sake, HELP these poor, confused souls

[dietcoketree]

just had to say- this topic makes me think of martin luther kind and gandhi. good guys.

[Libertine]

It is a sad state of affairs for sure.

There has to be something innately screwed for this to be the case. But, this is one of those odd cases where seldom do these people seek help--due to being demonized before they commit a crime.

However, once the crime has been committed there has to be restitution.

[ihmurria]

first off, only read the first page and the 9th. so I apologize if i'm reiterating what someone else has said

I think some are sick
and some are evil

But I don't think we have a way of rehabilitating them right now. I really don't. I really do believe in locking them up and throwing away the key. I mean, dont' treat them as subhuman but they shouldn't be let out where they can hurt children again. The sheer amount of damage they can do to one person is incredible. I've heard (unsubstantiated, second hand info here) that hte average pedo has assaulted nearly a hundred children before he's caught. While htat's not necessarily true, it's terrifying how much people get away with, how much has to happen before they're caught

Keep them away from children. Whatever it takes, keep them away until we can fuckin rewrite their brains to stop them from having those desires.

[Libertine]

first off, only read the first page and the 9th. so I apologize if i'm reiterating what someone else has said

I think some are sick
and some are evil

But I don't think we have a way of rehabilitating them right now. I really don't. I really do believe in locking them up and throwing away the key. I mean, dont' treat them as subhuman but they shouldn't be let out where they can hurt children again. The sheer amount of damage they can do to one person is incredible. I've heard (unsubstantiated, second hand info here) that hte average pedo has assaulted nearly a hundred children before he's caught. While htat's not necessarily true, it's terrifying how much people get away with, how much has to happen before they're caught

Keep them away from children. Whatever it takes, keep them away until we can fuckin rewrite their brains to stop them from having those desires.


I think that they should be quarantined in areas, but I don't believe the human zoo works in the long run. It's just a band aid. Always has been.

I highly doubt that the average pedophile assaults a hundred children. Not all pedophiles have acted upon their desires. And some can't seek help because it is such a touchy issue that most psychiatrists even resort to their innate emotions to retort.

Most molestation cases don't involve sexual intercourse or sodomy or any penetration either. Most are "touching" improperly. Being in my position (where I work) I've seen guys (over 18) sentenced to 15 years or more for the rubbing of a girl's ass. That's not helping matters at all. As much damage as this causes, I don't think that it is more damaging than say, murder or rape. Yet those desires get treated differently (well, murder anyway). Sexuality (in minors) is a major issue in America. Not so much in other cultures.

I feel that we need to stop dicking around in America and wake up to reality. Pedophilia is a mental disorder that needs to be looked into properly and dealt with on that basis. Molestation needs to be dealt with on a different basis. What that is would be a good subject for discussion as well, but this is mainly about pedophilia itself.

Good posts, btw.

[Libertine]

Here is some interesting information I found regarding this subject:

• The APA (American Psychological Association) refers to pedophilia as a mental disorder and separates it from the actuality of an event of molestation.

• It is estimated that only 2 to 10 percent of child sexual abuse perpetrators meet the regular criteria for pedophilia. (Kinsey-Report, Lautmann, Brongersma, Groth).

• A perpetrator of child sexual abuse is, despite all medical definitions, commonly assumed to be a pedophile, and referred to as such; however, there may be other motivations for the crime (such as stress, marital problems, or the unavailability of an adult partner), much as adult rape can have non-sexual reasons . Thus, child sexual abuse alone may or may not be an indicator that its perpetrator is a pedophile; most perpetrators of it are in fact not primarily interested in children.

• Situational offenders tend to offend at times of stress; have a later onset of offending; have fewer, often familial victims; and have a general preference for adult partners. Pedophilic offenders, however, often start offending at an early age; often have a large number of victims who are frequently extra-familiar; are more appetitively driven to offend; and have values or beliefs that strongly support an offense lifestyle.

• Contrary to popular belief, Dr. Fred Berlin, believe pedophilia can "indeed be successfully treated," if only the medical community would give it more attention. And gives his theories in "Treatments to Change Sexual Orientation," American Journal of Psychiatry, Vol 157.

• An attraction towards illustrated and fictional "lolicon" (regarding the lolita complex) characters is frequently accused of being similar to or a form of pedophilia, particularly by Westerners. Defenders of such material say that it does not adversely affect children, and in some cases may help to relieve the sexual tension of actual pedophiles; opponents often say that the existence of fictional material encourages the viewing of children as sex objects or can incite actual sexual abuse. However, there is no evidence to support these claims. Despite the fact that most lolicon artwork is produced in Japan, there is no evidence that it has caused an increase of violent crimes against children and teens. The number of reported incidents of crime against children in Japan, as well as violent crime in general, is well below that of most other developed countries.

THOUGHTS? REBUTTALS?

[lankymidget]

It sounds like, once the code has been cracked that weakens a persons ability to hold in these urges, unlocking the codes for all other types of deviants should be relatively easy, for the scientific profesion at least..

Perhaps the fact that paedophilia is considered one of the most heinous crimes of unhuman nature makes it a good place to start, perhaps not.. It's interesting that Government bodies don't want to be seen to be too close to this issue, and I wonder if a different devience would yeild the same results.. Probably not..

So why are we so afraid to poke around the minds of paedophiles?

Libertine, as fascinated and intrigued as I am with these studies, they are clearly out of my expertise. And, apart from wanting to suggest that MOST crimes are committed durint mental stress, I agree with and understand all those points.

[Libertine]

It sounds like, once the code has been cracked that weakens a persons ability to hold in these urges, unlocking the codes for all other types of deviants should be relatively easy, for the scientific profesion at least..

Perhaps the fact that paedophilia is considered one of the most heinous crimes of unhuman nature makes it a good place to start, perhaps not.. It's interesting that Government bodies don't want to be seen to be too close to this issue, and I wonder if a different devience would yeild the same results.. Probably not..

So why are we so afraid to poke around the minds of paedophiles?

Libertine, as fascinated and intrigued as I am with these studies, they are clearly out of my expertise. And, apart from wanting to suggest that MOST crimes are committed durint mental stress, I agree with and understand all those points.

I have always been fascinated by taboo subjects. Not merely sexual ones, but along all lines. Because I am fascinated by the human mind.

I don't deify science, but I put a hell of a lot of stock in it. Both physiological and psychological. Also, I am a philosophy major as well. :D

Taboo subjects seem to attract many popular myths as well and when you do attack these subjects, most people are so paralyzed by shock that you are labeled a madman.

The Black/White, Good/Evil world is not my world, really. I see things from the perspective of healthy/unhealthy, beneficial/harmful and situational/circumstantial. This also is a taboo! ;)

Pedophilia is one the most taboo subjects because it is not given enough attention in the proper field of study. Whereas motivations of murder and other crimes are mainstream, the mind of the pedophile is considered almost so taboo that even psychologists won't dare touch it.

And for the sake of humanity as a whole, it NEEDS to be put under the scope of the psychological sciences. This retardation of progress by politicians and the propaganda of ignorance thrown up on the public needs to be addressed and ended. Pedophilia is not a "demon", it is a disorder and it needs to be treated as bad as other disorders in order to stamp out the problem at the ROOT and not just pruning and trimming the branches all the time. Pedophilia is not molestation, it is a psychological issue not a legal one. Molestation is the legal issue, because it is an action. Molestation and Pedophilia are not the same either (although they are viewed as such by the general public). And only 2-10% of molestation cases involved genuine pedophiles.

In the long run it will costs taxpayers a lot less and bring more civilized culture to our world to treat this and other issues accordingly instead of resorting to medieval barbarism repeatedly.

[lankymidget]

Society sells all the ingredients you need to make child sex abuse and paedophilia possible through dubious advertising techniques.. In basic terms this, I believe establisihing the link between the two in dialogue with sufferers would make a good starting place..

And yes, "lolicon" is just one of those ingredients, but on the flipside of the coin in Japan is a different ethos where children are concerned..

[Flight From Ashiya]

Kids must be protected from the sexual preditory nature of men.I say men because I believe this to be primarily a male problem.

[Libertine]

[color=Navy]Kids must be protected from the sexual preditory nature of men.

You are merely stating the obvious, but what do you offer to further the conservation? Give us your thoughts and theories.

[lankymidget]

Of course we're in full agreement with you...

On both points... Perhaps if we find out why it's a predominantly male problem, we go some way to understanding it..

[Libertine]

Society sells all the ingredients you need to make child sex abuse and paedophilia possible through dubious advertising techniques.. In basic terms this, I believe establisihing the link between the two in dialogue with sufferers would make a good starting place..

And yes, "lolicon" is just one of those ingredients, but on the flipside of the coin in Japan is a different ethos where children are concerned..

Indeed. I think that American culture has, through advertising and popular entertainment, promoted pedophilia by promoting underage girls as sex objects. Yet, sternly turns a deaf ear and blind eye to the problem, offers nothing but an iron fist for an answer, and takes no responsibility.

[lankymidget]

Indeed. I think that American culture has, through advertising and popular entertainment, promoted pedophilia by promoting underage girls as sex objects. Yet, sternly turns a deaf ear and blind eye to the problem, offers nothing but an iron fist for an answer, and takes no responsibility.
You partly answered my last comment, but I can't help feel that early in mankind's existence, it actually served some purpose.. Lifespans were shorter.. etc etc....

[Libertine]

Sure. I mean, think about even into the early 20th century, females (fields and farming days) were marrying at 14! Males were looked at in a much different light. Both were, really.

But, this only addresses the tip of the iceberg of the "Lolita Complex", which I think is only one arena of pedophilia (although the largest by far!).

[Last Stand]

Indeed. I think that American culture has, through advertising and popular entertainment, promoted pedophilia by promoting underage girls as sex objects. Yet, sternly turns a deaf ear and blind eye to the problem, offers nothing but an iron fist for an answer, and takes no responsibility. Like saved by the Bell.http://www.classictvhits.com/shows/pictures/sb05.jpg

[Libertine]

Like saved by the Bell.

I'm sure that could be used as one example.

Don't get me wrong, I am for a robust freedom of speech, but the hypocrisy of American culture is contributing to its demise.

Obviously, sexuality and sexual exploration exist in children, and people fail to regard that truth, but pedophilia needs to be given more attention by the psychological sciences in order to help answer the problem and further progress our culture.

And I do believe the popular entertainment and advertising promote it (underage girls as sex objects) and blatantly do so.

[scratcho]

Libertine,majoring in the study of the mind and human nature ,might pedophiles be born as they are--even as gays are born gay ,heterosexuals born hetero and others born with certain conditions from birth?And if they are ,what does this portend for treatment?Nature?nurture?

[Libertine]

Libertine,majoring in the study of the mind and human nature ,might pedophiles be born as they are--even as gays are born gay ,heterosexuals born hetero and others born with certain conditions from birth?And if they are ,what does this portend for treatment?Nature?nurture?
I have asked that question, too. Suppose some are born with a certain function (or disfunction) that stimulates this desire. That is something that would still need examination by the psychological sciences. Good points.

[scratcho]

Thanks.And it begs the question "is there a cure for something so innate"if in fact ,that is the case.It would be ,therefore like trying to teach a squirrel not to be a squirrel.However,I agree with you that there needs to be more study on this.Not likely tho, the way children are treated here and around the world.Also the (admittedly)knee jerk reaction like I had earlier of fuck em--lock em up!Or beat the shit out of em'.When I think of my little grand children with some fucker raping them and/or killing them----well--- logic kinda goes out the window--I instantly think of going for neck!

[Libertine]

We all do.

But in the theorizing of the subject, you are able to see the issue all the way around.

I think we've had some good posts in this thread. This has been one of the more intellectually stimulating and entertaining threads I've had in some time! :)

[Last Stand]

Pedos that like very young childrens are very rare and far in between. most of them would not even think of harming a child . but some of the more rare type who kills and force rape are the real danger , again this folks are still rare. theres more chance of your kids being kill by a bimbo on the cellular phone while driving a SUV than 1 of this extreme wako harming your kids .

[Libertine]

Pedos that like very young childrens are very rare and far in between. most of them would not even think of harming a child . but some of the more rare type who kills and force rape are the real danger , again this folks are still rare. theres more chance of your kids being kill by a bimbo on the cellular phone while driving a SUV than 1 of this extreme wako harming your kids .

Working in my field, I agree with you. It is rare. Usually the cases I see are guys anywhere from early 20s to early 40s who have messed around with (usually improper touching) teenage girls. It DOES happen, but rarely do I see a case where a 35 year old man rapes a 4 year old. And when it does, the cause is usually not pedophilia, but some other situation (as in the case of many rapes).

Pedophilia is, again, a case for study. It is something that needs to be tackled by the psychological sciences because it is extremely odd that only 2-10% of molestation is due to genuine pedophilia. Now, that's an open topic right there! Most people are unaware of this.

[Sininabin]

liberinte what do you do for a living?

It funny becasue it called hip forum but i never considered myself a hippy and just that it was a "hip" name (in response to an older post)

I don't have much to say becasue i don't have much to disagree with.

I've read lolita but that was after i started. So i wouldn't see it as a real cause of anything, but a good book, good adventure and moral experiance. I have to say he has the feelings of the attacker down pat,i wish i could tlak to him, i couldn't imagine him being that accurate unless he has done it himself.

But i do agree if theses thoughts contined into my adulthood, and their was confidental help, i would be very inclined to try it, but right now its not illegal, and for now i'm in something else so its not a pressing promblem

[Alternative_Thinker]

What I'd like to be clear on before I made the judgment is, what exactly we mean by "pedophilia". Are we talking those people who are SOLELY attracted to prepubescent children? Or are we also including those who are able to view children as sexy beings AS WELL AS adults? I ask this because, frankly, I only believe the former to be the genuine case of pedophilia. The latter, to me at least, is people just being people. After all, Child MOLESTATION does NOT necessarily have to take place in either situation, which I realize many on this thread seem to be aware.

However, one thing that I have also noticed over the years is that, especially in places like America, there seems to be a great deal of what I usually call "pedoPHOBIA". It seems to me that so many adults are simply AFRAID to even give children something as totally harmless as a friendly hug, fearing that even such benign action might cause some fucknut to jump to conclusion and accuse them of being pedophiles(apparently this happens more often than meets the eye *disgusted*). I think such state in today's society is beyond absurd. When ANYTHING sex-related gets added to the picture, people get further panicky. As BIB has mentioned, then the younger party involved automatically becomes the "victim", while the older becomes the "predator". The question is, should it really be THAT clear-cut?

I believe I'm getting ahead of myself, however. I will be quiet for the time being and at least try to organize my thoughts on this issue.

[Brand New Soul]

Very rarley does a pedophile/sex offender ever become "normal"

I read a book on people like this by a professional pysciotrist. Its called Perditors. I forgot her name. But very insightful but pretty sick and very sad

[Libertine]

liberinte what do you do for a living?
My "job" is in media. My other activities include community volunteerism, board of directors on the Keep America Beautiful campaign in my local area, the International Rotary (former member--too religious for me), board member of the local Sheriff's Boy's Home for orphans, and a member of the ACLU.

[Libertine]

However, one thing that I have also noticed over the years is that, especially in places like America, there seems to be a great deal of what I usually call "pedoPHOBIA". It seems to me that so many adults are simply AFRAID to even give children something as totally harmless as a friendly hug, fearing that even such benign action might cause some fucknut to jump to conclusion and accuse them of being pedophiles(apparently this happens more often than meets the eye *disgusted*). I think such state in today's society is beyond absurd. When ANYTHING sex-related gets added to the picture, people get further panicky. As BIB has mentioned, then the younger party involved automatically becomes the "victim", while the older becomes the "predator". The question is, should it really be THAT clear-cut?.
That's American, man. FEAR is our driving force.

FEAR of "Terrorists". FEAR of Drugs. FEAR of Sex. FEAR of "Hell".

Sure we should be concerned and cautious, but America is too puritanical and tries to solve issues the wrong way a lot of the times.

But, as far as this subject, I feel my own point is clear enough. :)

[Libertine]

Very rarley does a pedophile/sex offender ever become "normal"

I read a book on people like this by a professional pysciotrist. Its called Perditors. I forgot her name. But very insightful but pretty sick and very sad
You can read any book to tell you anything. I've gotten information which states the cognitive, behavioral and chemical therapy due, indeed, help.

So there you go. ;)

[heron]

Molesting children (pedophilia) and having sex with post-pubesent people, regardless of age, is two different things. I, myself, have never had sex with anyone under 19, and with the exception of grab assing and stinky pinky in Jr High, never touched anyone under 18.

That said, i believe that people become sexual animals after puberty, naturally, the fact cannot be disputed. My grandmother was married at 13, before WWII, as a grown woman. After WWII, the "teenager" was invented by american culture, that is where we started treating 13 to 19 year olds as children who cant know better. I know a few 15 year old girls more mature, mentally and sexually, than a lot of 25 year olds. What does that say?

Sexual attraction to pre-pubesent children is sick, and needs help, people who find post-pubesent, freshly sexual young women,attractive are only victim to natural order, or else puberty wouldnt happen until 21.

[Libertine]

Very good points, heron. I agree 99%.

The only thing that I would say is that pedophilia is not necessarily child molesting. Some pedophiles have never molested children...except maybe in their minds.


Molesting children (pedophilia) and having sex with post-pubesent people, regardless of age, is two different things. I, myself, have never had sex with anyone under 19, and with the exception of grab assing and stinky pinky in Jr High, never touched anyone under 18.

That said, i believe that people become sexual animals after puberty, naturally, the fact cannot be disputed. My grandmother was married at 13, before WWII, as a grown woman. After WWII, the "teenager" was invented by american culture, that is where we started treating 13 to 19 year olds as children who cant know better. I know a few 15 year old girls more mature, mentally and sexually, than a lot of 25 year olds. What does that say?

Sexual attraction to pre-pubesent children is sick, and needs help, people who find post-pubesent, freshly sexual young women,attractive are only victim to natural order, or else puberty wouldnt happen until 21.

[heron]

I stand corrected friend, you are right.

Note: You won't hear that often lol

[Libertine]

*lol*:D

[Pizza Facd Fat Cunt]

I'm not a fan of pigeon holing human behavior .

I haven't voted on your poll because I think its pretty narrow minded & does not account for the difference in child abduction & sexual relations without legal age restraints.

There's a world of difference between the two & not only is this a deep subject to discuss it is one currently clouded in massive media hysteria .

I cant see how abducting children or behaving anti socially toward them in any way can benefit civilized society but neither can I see how it benefits society to permit Government & a legal system more concerned with making ridiculously large profits than implementing any form of justice , to dictate who when & how we use our body's in a natural manner with , be it passionate , affectionate , combative or whatever .

[lalalamort]

mayne, i just aw someones first post

[Libertine]

Please elaborate. What exactly do you mean by "child abduction" and "sexual relations without legal age restraints" ?

Are you suggesting (correct me if I am wrong) that one of the poll options should have been that pedophilia is not a disorder, but something perfectly natural for some humans?

I would like to hear your opinion, because we need all areas of opinion in this discussion.



I'm not a fan of pigeon holing human behavior .

I haven't voted on your poll because I think its pretty narrow minded & does not account for the difference in child abduction & sexual relations without legal age restraints.

There's a world of difference between the two & not only is this a deep subject to discuss it is one currently clouded in massive media hysteria .

I cant see how abducting children or behaving anti socially toward them in any way can benefit civilized society but neither can I see how it benefits society to permit Government & a legal system more concerned with making ridiculously large profits than implementing any form of justice , to dictate who when & how we use our body's in a natural manner with , be it passionate , affectionate , combative or whatever .

[wandering_okie]

Hey Libertine. Looks like you're getting some very well thought out replies here.
You know what I think. So, I just popped in to say "great thread".

[Pizza Facd Fat Cunt]

Please elaborate. What exactly do you mean by "child abduction" and "sexual relations without legal age restraints" ?
I'm not an expert on this matter & for the most part my opinion on this subject is still a work in progress .


To target a child , abduct them & then do x y or z to them is not the same , for example as a group of like minded individuals who for whatever reason agree to permitting each other have sexual relations with each others offspring .


One is just plain anti social & while a lot of people may think the other is absolutely shocking it is however at least civilized & no matter how you might disagree with the practice due to your moral or religious beliefs it is difficult to label it as anti social & therefore difficult to whole heartedly agree that society should be permitted to punish those involved in that particular lifestyle .

Are you suggesting (correct me if I am wrong) that one of the poll options should have been that pedophilia is not a disorder, but something perfectly natural for some humans?
Its not my place to tell you what you should of put up for the vote but it is perhaps an excellent topic for a future thread , instead of berating yourself for what this particular one could of contained .


My suggestion was nothing other than what I have typed above but now that you have asked the question I can only answer that If a person was born into a particular lifestyle then I cant fathom how anything other than that lifestyle could be anything but unnatural to them , Be they a Bible Bashing Catholic an Anti Christian Pagan , Buddhist or whatever . I guess thats why one mans poison will always remain another mans pleasure.

I think the real question here is where Government will stop intruding upon us who employ them & how we can prevent their hand in glove manipulation of media events to rob us of our natural rights as human beings.

[Duncan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia

I'm not too crazy about the choices. I know what "deviation from norm" behavior is all about. In some places and certainly at earlier times, the course of the objects of my affection would have landed me in prison. Fortunately we live in somewhat more civilized times... well, except for Wyoming.

I think of a pedophile as one who is haunted by a fetish that doesn't seem to ever be satisfied. I suppose you could learn to focus energy elsewhere. Highly unlikely however. As far as I can tell, a pedophile's hopeful outcome with therapy and drugs would be self-abuse with mental fantasies only. I'd wish that this person might be able to enjoy a physical intimate relationship with a person of his or her own age, but I am highly doubtful of that.

Pedophiles, btw, are not just old priests. Perhaps you have heard of the female school teachers who impose themselves on boys they teach. Somehow the world doesn't look at that as quite so awful. When I think of the women teachers whom I had had in my life, that sounds like somethat that would have definitely scarred me for life !

[Love Fest1969]

I think they are sick & evil.

[Libertine]

I think I get your drift and I have considered it as well. Just not in this poll.

Culture and history tell many stories that would be appalling to today's society.


I'm not an expert on this matter & for the most part my opinion on this subject is still a work in progress .


To target a child , abduct them & then do x y or z to them is not the same , for example as a group of like minded individuals who for whatever reason agree to permitting each other have sexual relations with each others offspring .


One is just plain anti social & while a lot of people may think the other is absolutely shocking it is however at least civilized & no matter how you might disagree with the practice due to your moral or religious beliefs it is difficult to label it as anti social & therefore difficult to whole heartedly agree that society should be permitted to punish those involved in that particular lifestyle .


Its not my place to tell you what you should of put up for the vote but it is perhaps an excellent topic for a future thread , instead of berating yourself for what this particular one could of contained .


My suggestion was nothing other than what I have typed above but now that you have asked the question I can only answer that If a person was born into a particular lifestyle then I cant fathom how anything other than that lifestyle could be anything but unnatural to them , Be they a Bible Bashing Catholic an Anti Christian Pagan , Buddhist or whatever . I guess thats why one mans poison will always remain another mans pleasure.

I think the real question here is where Government will stop intruding upon us who employ them & how we can prevent their hand in glove manipulation of media events to rob us of our natural rights as human beings.

[Libertine]

I think of a pedophile as one who is haunted by a fetish that doesn't seem to ever be satisfied. I suppose you could learn to focus energy elsewhere. Highly unlikely however. .I agree.


As far as I can tell, a pedophile's hopeful outcome with therapy and drugs would be self-abuse with mental fantasies only. .Well, many of the drugs that could possibly be "life changing" rather than a constant chemical fix (most of today's prescription drugs) are currently illegal. Those psychoactive substances that could lead one to chemical change without the addictiveness of the current legal psychiatric drugs may be part of the answer to aid with therapy (I'm thinking the proper controlled use of LSD and a therapeutic guide)--not just drugged up and fucked up. :)

[Zodiac]

i agree wit libertine

[Libertine]

It's funny that even CHRIS HANSON from DATELINE NBC: To Catch A Predator has even stated he feels sorry for some of those people.

I believe it to be a psychological compulsion myself.

[Rebel_1]

I dont belive in murder under any circumstances, but I do belive that they all need some serious help.

[Libertine]

I am really surprised that the poll seems to lean more towards the progressive methods than the emotional rage type "justice".

Very interesting for my study.

[Zodiac]

I am really surprised that the poll seems to lean more towards the progressive methods than the emotional rage type "justice".

Very interesting for my study.


i voted 1

[Libertine]

Well, so did I, of course. :D

[Jimbo27]

When in Hawaii,I spent some time in the library.They had many very nice books about the islands of the South Pacific and I came across one about the island(s) of Raivavae.I think I spelled this right --it's been 32 years--anyway the polynesians there were very ahamed to talk about one of their customs that was part of their culture before civilization came.The writer finally got a few folks to relate how the grandmothers were responsible for the sexual education of the little boys as they grew up,and the grandfathers were likewise responsible for the little girls.They intimated that the education was COMPLETE,with all that that implies.So obviously ,there was no such condition as pedophelia and probably no molestation.If ,in the case of this being accepted as right in their isolated society,then I guess when the islands were discovered by the outside world,the discoverers were were suitably shocked.-------------------------(this is scratcho on a friends machine)------

[Libertine]

Yes. I think culture has a lot to do with this particular subject (and many others as well).

Back, even in America, in the farms and fields days, girls as young as 13 or 14 were being married and having children--lots of them.

Even in the 60s and 70s some of this was going on in some states, but the paranoia of the 80s and 90s (even into today) has gotten A.O.C. laws to where some states consider a 16 year old a "victim" of consensual sex. This trivializes TRUE child molestation, I think.

Statutory rape is a bullshit law and has nothing to do with pedophilia.

I still think pedophilia is a disorder, but some will disagree either way. But, hell that's what this thread is for! :)

[Libertine]

What is evil?

I say that their behavior is more harmful than beneficial, but I don't regard things in the terms "good" and "evil".

[Alternative_Thinker]

Statutory rape is a bullshit law and has nothing to do with pedophilia.



Good to see someone else understands that. :cool:

[Libertine]

I have an interview with the D.A. coming up next week and this is one of the questions I am going to address.

I believe he sees the "statutory rape" law as being as controversial as I do.

[fylthevoyd]

Sick or evil matters not...kill the scumbags...their value in this world is nought...and they are a threat to the children of the world and are deserving of the most painful and slowest death that the imagination can dream of....and my opinion any body that stands up in support of these twisted fucks are deserving of the same

[Alternative_Thinker]

In that case, I'll just keep my fingers crossed and hope I'd never run into you offline. :p

[Libertine]

Sick or evil matters not...kill the scumbags...their value in this world is nought...and they are a threat to the children of the world and are deserving of the most painful and slowest death that the imagination can dream of....and my opinion any body that stands up in support of these twisted fucks are deserving of the same

With that type of thought process, what makes you any better than them?

Slow, painful death? Do you want to be the executioner, then?

:confused:

[Zodiac]

Sick or evil matters not...kill the scumbags...their value in this world is nought...and they are a threat to the children of the world and are deserving of the most painful and slowest death that the imagination can dream of....and my opinion any body that stands up in support of these twisted fucks are deserving of the same

ha ha killing peeple? wot do you no about that??????? ha hahaah

[Libertine]

In that case, I'll just keep my fingers crossed and hope I'd never run into you offline. :p

Indeed. :rolleyes:

[Zodiac]

wot about pedo activistz??

[Libertine]

Well, that exists obviously.

I suppose these organizations don't see it as a disorder or an evil.

Organizations like NAMBLA? Is that what you are referring to?

[Zodiac]

yes

it iz a groop to pro pedo

[Libertine]

Yes, they promote pedophilia in what they call "Manboy love" or something to that effect.

I personally think pedophilia is a disorder, so I don't agree with such organizations pushing for it to be legal.

[Libertine]

I would like to know if anyone in the HF takes the stance of this being neither a disorder or an evil.

I doubt anyone would say though. This subject is very stigmatized. Even for debate.

[lankymidget]

Neither?

If you mean that we suppress urges that are more instinctual than natural, I mentioned that early in your thread..

Individual minds don't really set the rules and laws, but once made and accepted, our mind thinks at least a little before acting on our urges.

Whether we can point to specific reasons why society deemed that age limits needed to be set or not, I guess we could look and find some (strangely by past standards) horrific stories.. Yet, in some way, this behaviour wasn't clamped down on until relatively recently..

So, not a disorder nor an evil?

But a suppressed instinct?


Have I become radical?

[Libertine]

Individual minds don't really set the rules and laws, but once made and accepted, our mind thinks at least a little before acting on our urges.

Whether we can point to specific reasons why society deemed that age limits needed to be set or not, I guess we could look and find some (strangely by past standards) horrific stories.. Yet, in some way, this behaviour wasn't clamped down on until relatively recently..

Yes, that is rather odd. It seems that only within the past few decades has this has been regarded as a major social problem. It would be interesting to find out exactly how that came about.

I remember my grandmother telling me about her being married (back in the fields & farming days) at age 14 and baring her first child at 16. My grandfather was 20 when they married. I guess if he'd been placed in prison, I probably wouldn't be here. :D

[heron]

my grandfather had a friend back in the day who married a 12 year old, and it was fine. Said she would be playing with dolls when he got home from work.

[Libertine]

*lol*...sorry, I suppose that's not supposed to be funny.

That doesn't surprise me, though. Like I said, my grandmother was 14 and I know of at least a handful of others that were 15 and under. It was no biggie back then, but now those same men would be considered "sexual predators" with likely jail time and a photo and history on an eternal sex registry.

I think America is a little too paranoid. I mean I don't believe in 12 year olds marrying, but I do think that the sex laws in this nation are too vague and draconian.

my grandfather had a friend back in the day who married a 12 year old, and it was fine. Said she would be playing with dolls when he got home from work.

[nayanrajeev]

sick and they should be locked

[lynsey]

I think there are two different kinds; pedophiles and sexual assaulters and I think people who like kids are truley mentally sick and those who want to hurt people by using sex as violence are evil. I was molested when I was about 6 by a teenage boy in our apartment complex he was really emotionaly unstable and I think he truley had an illness. Those who use sex as violence or power are really evil. I was just writting about sexual assault and in my research I found that kids who are molested by somone close to their family are 10 times as likley to commit suicide as kids who are molested by casual encounters or strangers. To know somone and pretend to love them and gain their trust and then assault them that way is evil as oppossed to somone not being able to helpo themselve's-that is just sick

[heron]

I dont think its a disorder or evil, but just a sick attraction. How would you treat it if it were a disorder? and evil is relative.

Homosexually is completly repulsive to some, whos to say.

I can say its sick, but thats just me.

[DeadieHeatherBear]

being a victim myself i know that its a combination of both things... but also many more that make up their twisted and disgusting personalities

[Xac]

I think it depends on the pedophile, if an adult is attracted to children and cant help the feelings they get but make a constant effort to never hurt a child or to never look at kiddie porn etc. they are just sick.

If an Adult however feels these same feelings and doesnt care what harm they can cause and chooses to molest children, they are Evil or Evil and sick.

Just my 2 cents.

[lynsey]

homosexuality doesn't hurt anyone though pedophilia does. you can't compare adult consentsual sex to touching an unsuspecting child.I dont think its a disorder or evil, but just a sick attraction. How would you treat it if it were a disorder? and evil is relative.

Homosexually is completly repulsive to some, whos to say.

I can say its sick, but thats just me.

[Libertine]

evil is relativeExactly.

See, I don't even believe in "evil".

I see it as religious terminology to describe something that most people find repulsive.

But, I don't see the world in black & white. I see it in various colors.

Situation...circumstances are everything. There are things that are "harmful" and "beneficial" in certain settings. There are things that are "healthy" and "unhealthy". I see pedophila as "unhealthy". I see non-consensual and/or coercive sex acts as "harmful".

But, "evil" is just a band aid term people use to ignore a problem and ignore the causes of it.

It's easier for the weak-minded to just say "that (whatever it may be) is evil".

[Xac]

But, "evil" is just a band aid term people use to ignore a problem and ignore the causes of it.

It's easier for the weak-minded to just say "that (whatever it may be) is evil".
Well i can understand what you are saying, i suppose once people label something as evil the first response is to have it destroyed but that is simple.

Having said all that i think you are getting too caught up with words and not the intent behind the words, 'Evil/Harmful person' what ever you call it they both mean that the person is a Bad person.

I do wonder Libertine if perhaps that apart of the reason for creating this thread was to debate the word 'Evil', you were the first person to mention it in this thread... it's in the title.

[Libertine]

Well i can understand what you are saying, i suppose once people label something as evil the first response is to have it destroyed but that is simple.

Having said all that i think you are getting too caught up with words and not the intent behind the words, 'Evil/Harmful person' what ever you call it they both mean that the person is a Bad person.

I do wonder Libertine if perhaps that apart of the reason for creating this thread was to debate the word 'Evil', you were the first person to mention it in this thread... it's in the title.
Good observation.

'Twas one of my reasons. But not the only one. I really wanted to see how people stood on this issue and start discussion and debate. I am satisfied thus far with most people's responses whether I agree with them or not.

[Xac]

Good observation.

'Twas one of my reasons. But not the only one. I really wanted to see how people stood on this issue and start discussion and debate. I am satisfied thus far with most people's responses whether I agree with them or not.
Sure, thats understandable and also I understand that you are a 'multi-layered person' (for a great, great lack of a better phrase) so i understand that you are also interested in the topic but also from many different angles.

[Libertine]

Sure, thats understandable and also I understand that you are a 'multi-layered person' (for a great, great lack of a better phrase) so i understand that you are also interested in the topic but also from many different angles.
Indeed, my friend. You get it.

I don't think in simplistic terms much. That could be viewed as a curse as much as a "blessing", I suppose.

But, at least I never get bored. And I do enjoy the discussions.

[heron]

wasnt a comparison, just an example of what is evil to some, like i said, "evil" is relative.


and, what if it is a consenting "child"?

besides, anything with a prepubesent is sick, because they arent sexual animals yet, so to be sexual with them is wrong. BUT some people hit puberty at 10, whos to say it wasnt consentual?

just poseing a question, so dont cut my dick off.


homosexuality doesn't hurt anyone though pedophilia does. you can't compare adult consentsual sex to touching an unsuspecting child.

[lynsey]

a consenting child, with an adult? I lost my virginity at 17 with a 26 year old and find that a liuttle sick and wrong now so at 10 I couldn't imagine consenting I didn't even know what sex was. uhm I don't mean to cut your dick off dude but your views are really not cool with me and seem a little permissive of harmful and hurtful behavior.

If you had a daughter and she was 10 you would be okay with her 'consenting' to have sex with a grown man?

wasnt a comparison, just an example of what is evil to some, like i said, "evil" is relative.


and, what if it is a consenting "child"?

besides, anything with a prepubesent is sick, because they arent sexual animals yet, so to be sexual with them is wrong. BUT some people hit puberty at 10, whos to say it wasnt consentual?

just poseing a question, so dont cut my dick off.

[Libertine]

I lost my virginity at 17 with a 26 year old and find that a liuttle sick and wrong

??? -- 17 and 26 is "sick" and "wrong"??? :D

Well, I suppose I am sick and wrong. My marriage is sick and wrong. My son is a product of sickness and wrongness. Because she was 17 and I was 23 and now we have two children and a pretty damn good life.

ALL HAIL "SICK" AND "WRONG"!!! :H

Please.

What the fuck kind of puritan social conditioning have you went through, girl?

[heron]

I do have a daughter, and she wont be raised thinking sex is a bad thing, so im sure when she is ready for sex then as long as she is respectful to herself, then sure, whatever she wants, just responsible.

Besides i was first to say that pedophilia, that being attraction to prepubesant children is sick. SO i dont condone hurtful and harmful
behavior. I believe in nature.

I knew a girl in highschool who at 16 told me all about her sexual exploits with an older man, when she was 11. She loved dick, and knew where to find it, and what to do with it.

and as a species, we are extending our juvenille time
once, we died at 27, and married at 9,had kids at 10
were middle aged by 15, but look now, we live till 80, and are children till 25,40 was ancient back then

i would be a tribal elder at my age

[Libertine]

and as a species, we are extending our juvenille time


This is definitely a fact.

The question is...how much of this is social conditioning?

[heron]

the large majority. puberty happens early, and actually getting earlier, but society wants us teenagers till 27. I have 3 children, been married since 19, when most people my age, then and now, are still party hardy teenagers, living of mom and dads dime.

[heron]

think about this. Sex is for one thing really, though fun as hell, it is to reproduce, no question. Using that, a woman is born with all of her eggs. She starts to release them upon puberty.

Which is better for healthy offspring, 12 year old eggs? or 35 year old eggs?

men make new sperm daily, until they are too damned old to make em.

hence the older man/younger woman scenario.

[Libertine]

I think much of it is relative to the culture as well. In Paranoica here, our society is full of sexual perverts wearing the masks of sexual purists--in other words, HYPOCRITES.

But, in many cultures, they don't sweat the stuff we pretend to consider inconceiveable.

[lynsey]

AS much as a testimate to healthy views on female sexuality this 16 year old girl who had sex with older men at 11 sounds it doesn't justify pedophilia. imo 18 is 18 there's laws in place for reasons...to keep people like you who condone statutory rape away from kids who do not have the mental or emotional ability to make decisions for themselve's.I do have a daughter, and she wont be raised thinking sex is a bad thing, so im sure when she is ready for sex then as long as she is respectful to herself, then sure, whatever she wants, just responsible.

Besides i was first to say that pedophilia, that being attraction to prepubesant children is sick. SO i dont condone hurtful and harmful
behavior. I believe in nature.

I knew a girl in highschool who at 16 told me all about her sexual exploits with an older man, when she was 11. She loved dick, and knew where to find it, and what to do with it.

and as a species, we are extending our juvenille time
once, we died at 27, and married at 9,had kids at 10
were middle aged by 15, but look now, we live till 80, and are children till 25,40 was ancient back then

i would be a tribal elder at my age

[heron]

do even know what the fuck pedophilia means?

From wikipedia, just for you...

Pedophilia, paedophilia, or p?dophilia (see spelling differences), is the paraphilia of being sexually attracted primarily or exclusively to pre-pubescent children. Persons with this attraction are called pedophiles.

Sex with a 17 isnt a pedophile, no way around it. Study nature, study evolution, study the past.

Just for your info, as i stated before, i have never been with anyone under 19, except some foolin around in Jr High, so dont think i am going after 13 year olds. BTW, 18 isnt the law. Here its 16. Parts of canada its 14, japan is 13. 18 is to smoke.

pedophilia is fucked up, sex with sexually mature, consenting partners is not.

[lynsey]

in another post you said that sexual maturity is around 10...I would just hate for someone to read that the wrong way and take it as validation for their thoughts or behavior. You may mean it from a scientific and biological point of view but you are wrong if you think those 10 and 11 year old who look like adults on the outside feel like them on the inside. I just don't think an 11 year old is capable of consenting with an adult.

In california it is 18. I don't think sex with a 17 year-old is pedohilia I just think there is something wrong with somone in their mid twenties who is interested in a relationship with a 17 year-old.

do even know what the fuck pedophilia means?

From wikipedia, just for you...

Pedophilia, paedophilia, or p?dophilia (see spelling differences), is the paraphilia of being sexually attracted primarily or exclusively to pre-pubescent children. Persons with this attraction are called pedophiles.

Sex with a 17 isnt a pedophile, no way around it. Study nature, study evolution, study the past.

Just for your info, as i stated before, i have never been with anyone under 19, except some foolin around in Jr High, so dont think i am going after 13 year olds. BTW, 18 isnt the law. Here its 16. Parts of canada its 14, japan is 13. 18 is to smoke.

pedophilia is fucked up, sex with sexually mature, consenting partners is not.

[Xac]

In california it is 18. I don't think sex with a 17 year-old is pedohilia I just think there is something wrong with somone in their mid twenties who is interested in a relationship with a 17 year-old.
Libertine is going to have something to say about that im sure

here is my pre-emptive reply: Libertine while some may find it slightly wrong that someone in their mid twenties wants a relationship with a 17 year old it is because most people assume that they want to take advantage of a younger and less experianced person.

Now Libertine most people wont criticize your relationship because it is obvious it is based on love, so what the difference between you and someone else?

Well let me ask you this, did you go looking for 17 year olds? or did you just happen to fall in love with some one who was 17?

[Libertine]

First, let me state that Statutory Rape is a bullshit law. Period.

Secondly... if a girl at 17 is not mentally able to give consent, she should be considered legally retarded. I don't mean that as an insult to mentally challenged people, either.

Thirdly, ha ha... "love" has nothing to do with the law. Would they have condoned my relationship with my wife just because we said, "We love each other and plan to marry!" ??? Doubtful.

The law is the law is the law. And some laws need to be challenged. Statutory Rape laws are a "testament" to American sexual paranoia and lack of touch with reality and nature.

Typical for Americans. :rolleyes:

The Land of the Ignorant and Home of the Hypocrite. America's answer to every problem is "get tough". How about "get SMART"? Prohibition and victimless laws have NEVER worked and NEVER will. But, America is like an ignorant fundamentalist--keep doing the same non-working shit over and over.

Pat Robertson is a good poster boy for AMERICA.



Libertine is going to have something to say about that im sure

here is my pre-emptive reply: Libertine while some may find it slightly wrong that someone in their mid twenties wants a relationship with a 17 year old it is because most people assume that they want to take advantage of a younger and less experianced person.

Now Libertine most people wont criticize your relationship because it is obvious it is based on love, so what the difference between you and someone else?

Well let me ask you this, did you go looking for 17 year olds? or did you just happen to fall in love with some one who was 17?

[Xac]

First, let me state that Statutory Rape is a bullshit law. Period.

Secondly... if a girl at 17 is not mentally able to give consent, she should be considered legally retarded. I don't mean that as an insult to mentally challenged people, either.

Thirdly, ha ha... "love" has nothing to do with the law. Would they have condoned my relationship with my wife just because we said, "We love each other and plan to marry!" ??? Doubtful.

The law is the law is the law. And some laws need to be challenged. Statutory Rape laws are a "testament" to American sexual paranoia and lack of touch with reality and nature.

Typical for Americans. :rolleyes:

The Land of the Ignorant and Home of the Hypocrite. America's answer to every problem is "get tough". How about "get SMART"? Prohibition and victimless laws have NEVER worked and NEVER will. But, America is like an ignorant fundamentalist--keep doing the same non-working shit over and over.

Pat Robertson is a good poster boy for AMERICA.
Ok, nice post but is it really a reply to mine? I wasnt talking law... at all, i was talking about peoples personal perception and concerns.

I do admit that I'm not totally sure how to criticize a reply to a pre-empted post it's new ground for me. :)

[Libertine]

Actually only #3 was aimed at your last post. :)

About love.

Ok, nice post but is it really a reply to mine? I wasnt talking law... at all, i was talking about peoples personal perception and concerns.

I do admit that I'm not totally sure how to criticize a reply to a pre-empted post it's new ground for me. :)

[Xac]

Actually only #3 was aimed at your last post. :)

About love.
Well you do make a good point there, there is no way in that situation the law can differentiate between a healthy relationship and an abusive one but where do we draw the line? How can parents feel their children are protected by the law? It's tricky because on one hand you have the minors need to develop and grow (in a healthy manner) and on the other hand you have alot of fucked up people willing to hurt others for their own needs.

I'm not going to pretend to know the answer so i thought those questions were worth throwing out there.

[Libertine]

Laws are made to protect everyone. Laws are made to make sure you don't kill, assault, steal, kidnap or coerce me to do certain things against my will. However, these laws are basic. Several other laws are made to regulate certain behaviors in order to have a more civilized society: corporate regulations, civil liberties, civil rights, etc.

But, victimless crimes are merely money-making schemes and puritan paranoia at work in America.

In several other cultures (and at one time in America), people were sexually active at younger ages (14/15). It was the norm. It was not sick. It was not a crime.

Now, it is. In 2006, people ACTUALLY think that a 17 year old is uncapable of saying "yes" to an act of sex (not just intercourse, but oral as well). This is all built on the whole paternal/maternal "Everything to SAVE the children" mentality.

Most children at age 7 are not capable of making an informed decision regarding sex. This is obvious. However, by 12, many children are VERY informed about sex and are capable of saying "no" to a variety of things. At 14 or 15, they aren't capable of making such decisions according to the law, but they are capable of being "tried as an adult" if they were to murder someone. So, all of a sudden the "innocent" child is immediately "capable" of adult-think? Ha ha... :D

When we call a teenager "innocent" that is a misnomer. If a teenager doesn't know what we as adults feel they should not know, we call them "innocent". If a teenager doesn't know what we as adults feel they should know, we call them "ignorant". :rolleyes:

Most teenagers regard sexuality as part of life. They don't freak out over a naked person. They are not stupid. They are not ignorant. And they definitely are not INNOCENT.





Well you do make a good point there, there is no way in that situation the law can differentiate between a healthy relationship and an abusive one but where do we draw the line? How can parents feel their children are protected by the law? It's tricky because on one hand you have the minors need to develop and grow (in a healthy manner) and on the other hand you have alot of fucked up people willing to hurt others for their own needs.

I'm not going to pretend to know the answer so i thought those questions were worth throwing out there.

[Xac]

Laws are made to protect everyone. Laws are made to make sure you don't kill, assault, steal, kidnap or coerce me to do certain things against my will. However, these laws are basic. Several other laws are made to regulate certain behaviors in order to have a more civilized society: corporate regulations, civil liberties, civil rights, etc.

But, victimless crimes are merely money-making schemes and puritan paranoia at work in America.

In several other cultures (and at one time in America), people were sexually active at younger ages (14/15). It was the norm. It was not sick. It was not a crime.

Now, it is. In 2006, people ACTUALLY think that a 17 year old is uncapable of saying "yes" to an act of sex (not just intercourse, but oral as well). This is all built on the whole paternal/maternal "Everything to SAVE the children" mentality.

Most children at age 7 are not capable of making an informed decision regarding sex. This is obvious. However, by 12, many children are VERY informed about sex and are capable of saying "no" to a variety of things. At 14 or 15, they aren't capable of making such decisions according to the law, but they are capable of being "tried as an adult" if they were to murder someone. So, all of a sudden the "innocent" child is immediately "capable" of adult-think? Ha ha... :D

When we call a teenager "innocent" that is a misnomer. If a teenager doesn't know what we as adults feel they should not know, we call them "innocent". If a teenager doesn't know what we as adults feel they should know, we call them "ignorant". :rolleyes:

Most teenagers regard sexuality as part of life. They don't freak out over a naked person. They are not stupid. They are not ignorant. And they definitely are not INNOCENT.
Maybe at one time in America people were active at 14,15 but that doesnt mean it was healthy, it may have been i dont know.

It is true that teenagers are aware of sex and they know alot of what it is about but i think that it is naive to assume that minors can comprehend everything about sex and that is not to call them ignorant.

I wouldn't say that a 17 year old is incapable of saying no but I think it is much more likely for a 17 year old to fold to pressure or to be unaware of what to do, people can become carried away when it comes to sex and a 17 year old is not always capable of knowing how to handle sexual situation with an adult.

I do agree that charging minors as adults is total bullshit and very hypocritcal as you've already pointed out but i'd never model a society on any part of America... unless i was depressed :p

[Libertine]

I think the majority of people would fold under pressure. Hell, I'm probably weaker than most 17 year old girls when it comes to sex. I'd fold like a rag under the right conditions and I'm 31.

Prohibition never works. The best thing to do is to only have laws against non-consensual sex or sex with those intellectually incapable of consenting or incapacitated (small children, mentally challenged persons, sloppy drunks, people passed out, etc.)

Statutory rape trivializes REAL rape.


I wouldn't say that a 17 year old is incapable of saying no but I think it is much more likely for a 17 year old to fold to pressure or to be unaware of what to do, people can become carried away when it comes to sex and a 17 year old is not always capable of knowing how to handle sexual situation with an adult.

I do agree that charging minors as adults is total bullshit and very hypocritcal as you've already pointed out but i'd never model a society on any part of America... unless i was depressed :p

[SageDreamer]

When I look at the number of 18-year-olds who are involved with people 17 years old and younger, I have to ask where we draw the line. In many states, such activity is illegal, but people don't usually freak out so much about it. I suspect that people are less inclined to press charges in those cases than when the age difference is greater. Then it becomes a question of where to draw the line.

Beyond a certain point (or is it an uncertain point?), I tend to think of these people as being twisted if not sick. It becomes a question of evil when someone acts on those thoughts because of the effect on a child.

[Libertine]

I was 23 when I married a 17 year old girl. We now have two children. Own our home. Have a very, liberal marriage. And we are best friends.

I am now 31 and she is now 25.

Her dad was 19 when he married her mom at 14. They had two kids.
My dad was 18 when he married my mom at 16.
My grandfather was 19, my grandmother 14. 7 kids.
My other grandfather was 21, my grandmother 17. 3 kids.

NO DIVORCES.

So, I suppose my whole family are statutory "rapists".

If my family were to be considered "rapists" what does that say for real rape?

Statutory rape trivializes real rape. It makes a mockery out of a serious issue.

[Libertine]

hah. That's bullshit:D Saying a 17 year old cant comprehend everything about sex? MOST adults are no rolemodles to look up to. Hell, half of them have shitty sex lives anyway. But THEY can comprehend sex? They can comprehend sex just because they're married, and can thrust a couple times and call it a night?

Don't have sex until you're married. Now how does anyone expect that to work out? People are getting married at an older age now. I'm not going to be a virgin until i'm 34. OR, if I do have sex, it cant be with anyone over 18 because that's sick and wrong. Again, how does anyone expect that to work out? Most guys 18 an below are more likely to treat me like shit than a guy above 18.

And how is it really sick for a guy to be attracted to a minor? If she's hit puberty, she gets boobs (...or atleast some boobage), and guys are going to be looking. Girls don't hit puberty at 18.


oh, not all of this was directed at you xac. Its just fun reading a zilion page debate about girls my age not being able to consent to even oral. ha hahh:) Now that's truely sick.

"bare is best" is one of the voices from other side: The "minor".

It's funny that she understands sexuality better than most law makers.

Sadly, here is someone who has a valuable (and likely the most important) opinion that no one in government will listen to. Out of fear of the dinosaurs with their dinosaur mentality and the general ignorant public.

[heron]

Well said bare.

Lynsey, i wasnt saying go out and fuck 10 year olds because they might have periods. I was indeed giving the biological side, but if nature intends it, who are
we to say its wrong? And why do early pubesants seem like children? We make em that way.

Raise a child sexually prudent and they will think its a dirty no no, and probably get curious around 15 and get pregnant. Raise them with knowledge and liberation, then they make informed and intellegent choices, even at 10. You think a 10 year old who knows his/her body and the what and why is going to get molested? nope, because they know better. Its the sheltered kids that that happens to, because they dont know better, then they never tell, because sex is a dirty no no.

When a child hits puberty, physically the are adults, mentally we stunt them and make them attractive "children". One day 21 year olds will be the new 16 year old, child bearing age will be 40, and eventually everyone will be born with downs syndrome.

Should have listened to nature.

[Libertine]

Raise a child sexually prudent and they will think its a dirty no no, and probably get curious around 15 and get pregnant. Raise them with knowledge and liberation, then they make informed and intellegent choices, even at 10. You think a 10 year old who knows his/her body and the what and why is going to get molested? nope, because they know better. Its the sheltered kids that that happens to, because they dont know better, then they never tell, because sex is a dirty no no.

Very true, heron.

I am a firm believer that education is the key to everything.

This puritan paranoia has got to go if society is to progress.

[heron]

glad our sex views are better than our religion ones =P

sex brings people together better than religion does anyway lol

btw, my wife things youre hot.

[Libertine]

Yes, indeed.

Shit, we probably have a hell of a lot in common.

Wow...tell her I think the same of her.

And hell, I like you too. :D

glad our sex views are better than our religion ones =P

sex brings people together better than religion does anyway lol

btw, my wife things youre hot.

[Xac]

hah. That's bullshit:D Saying a 17 year old cant comprehend everything about sex? MOST adults are no rolemodles to look up to. Hell, half of them have shitty sex lives anyway. But THEY can comprehend sex? They can comprehend sex just because they're married, and can thrust a couple times and call it a night?

Ok so 17 year olds can comprehend everything about sex but adults cant? Yes you are right alot of Adults have shitty sex lives and dont know much about sex, having said that it reaffirms my position that 17 year old with even less life experiance isnt likely to be aware of all sides of sex.


P.s. I dont have a particular problem with 17 year olds being able to give consent, infact 17 is the age of consent where i live.

[Libertine]

Well, if I wasn't an "old man", I'd love to experience some things with you.

WOW. :D

Btw, I agree with your statement.


see, i'm aware people get better at sex with age. But a lot of kids who aren't even 18 yet, are a lot more open minded about sex. Openminded, and sex, can usually mean a better understanding of sex from all aspects. So even though a 17 yr old may have less life experiance, doesn't mean she has less sexual experiances.

[heron]

dont blame him on me! hehee, hes too old to be my son hehehe

[Libertine]

Yes. Now, that is the proper reaction you should have.

I am scum and need counseling for thinking a 17 year old is sexy as hell.

haha, me too.

oh wait. SHIT, YOU FUCKING SICKO!! I'M A MINOR! GOD, did you spawn from the devils seed or what?!

:H ridiculous indeed.

[heron]

I couldnt even get taken advantage of as a teen....and i put it out there too lol.

[Libertine]

Damn. Now see what you did. Made me look like a REAL perv.

I will be cast out and damned among my peers for my thought-crime.

What do they put in the food nowadays?

heh:X .......15.


:D

[Libertine]

hahah, aw. I'll feed you in jail, though :DGee, thanks. :D

Seriously though, I think it is ridiculous. Most people look. Most people think it. They just can't say it. And their is a HUGE difference in someone 15 or 16 and some 9 year old kid. How the hell someone could find that attraction is beyond me.

This is the funny part. Most hardliners would have agreed with me that you look very hot (assuming your were 18 or older), but as soon as they found out your true age--this normal reaction would be regarded as "sick" and perverted.

The whole system is faulty. A person is almost regarded as criminal just for their natural thoughts.

LUDICROUS! :rolleyes:

[heron]

For years i thought i was a pervert........

then i realized i was just pagan =P

sex is my religion

[Libertine]

Ha ha...:D

Well, if thinking that girl was hot makes me a pervert, I have no defense.

And neither do the liars that would have denied it. ;)


For years i thought i was a pervert........

then i realized i was just pagan =P

sex is my religion

[heron]

yup, beating off in the bathroom while their puritan wife chases around their 4 kids, then he lies awake at night asking his "god" for forgiveness.

[Libertine]

Yeah...

Shit, half of 'em probably diddlin' with their own kids. Fuckin' hypocrites.

They are the REAL sickos.

http://http://www.dkosopedia.com/wiki/Moral_Values


yup, beating off in the bathroom while their puritan wife chases around their 4 kids, then he lies awake at night asking his "god" for forgiveness.

[Libertine]

School girl outfits... *weak in the knees*

Yeah, you're right. You could do all the work and I'd still get all the "credit". ;) Ha ha...


Hahaha,...Nah, I don't understand why i'm going to be the victim in everything, no matter what. I can pretty much beg you to let me suck you off, and i'd STILL be the naive young girl being taken advantage of.


Oh well. School girl outfits are pretty easy for me to score:H so, pft.

[heron]

I heard jail isnt half bad LOL

See, whos the victims?

[Libertine]

hah, I am a school girl.guys are easy to satisfy:rolleyes:

but you'd still be going to jail:D
Well, that's why there are FANTASIES. ;)

So, you don't have to go to the human zoo.

[heron]

teens who are really 30 year old FBI agents suck too ,and they're out there.

[Libertine]

teens who are really 30 year old FBI agents suck too ,and they're out there.

Fuck the FBI! :rolleyes: A tool for puritan fascism if it ever existed.

I am so sick of living in the Christian States of Paranoiaca. It won't be too long before people are put on trial for their thoughts. Shit, it's probably happening anyway. But, only to the poor who can't afford a team of Michael Jackson lawyers.

There's not one goddamn thing wrong with appreciating the hotness of a 16 year old girl (for instance). You're not molesting her. And for fuck's sake, she ain't 9! The hypocrisy of Americans is nauseating.

This is the USA for godsake! It's amazing that we can even have a forum where we can debate such issues. Thank goodness for people like Skip and others who fight for freedom of speech.

As a member of the ACLU, I am obviously a free speech radical nut. I believe in speech liberation, sexual liberation, chemical liberation, and liberation from the hypocrisy.

If America had to tell the truth just for one day, the whole nation would fall apart.

[Libertine]

Ha ha! This thread is now the most popular thread in MENTAL HEALTH FORUM. :)

Kicking the ass of the sissified "Eating Disorder" thread by a mile.

[Libertine]

Fantasies that include two consenting individuals should not land one of them in the human zoo;) And the other with therapy:rolleyes:

but you knew that:)

Well, I agree with that. Especially if the two consenting individuals are both aware and have some understanding of exactly what it is they are consenting to.

Fantasies, however, can be played out alone or with someone.

The sad fact is that today someone such as yourself and someone older could not even cyber without the Gestapo shitting their collective paternal pants thinking the older person is a "predator". :rolleyes:

That's why even anti-authoritarians like myself are cautious. I don't cyber with anyone because of it unless they admit they are 18 or older. It's ridiculous, I know, but I don't wanna lose everything over a bullshit law against THINKING and TYPING and be presented as a "pedophile" for talking with a 15 year old.

Pedophiles are horny for little kids, not 15/16/17 year olds.

[Libertine]

I agree. I suppose I am too liberal for the majority. A member of the ACLU and ASFAR. I support Amnesty International, F.A.M.M., and NORML.

So I believe a lot of things are screwed up beyond reason. This is just another one of those examples.


yeh, it's a shame. You can't do what you'd like to do. I can't do what i'd like to do. The world is happily controlled:rolleyes:

Especially since it's pretty much my time to explore. Like I said before, a lot of teens are very open minded about sexual things. hah, ive already hooked up with girls. minors who are ready to start finding out who they are, shouldn't have to worry about breaking a law at the same time.

And YOU shouldn't have to worry about helping very ready, completely understanding teen explore a few more things about sex.:D Without going to the human zoo.

[heron]

The human zoo would suck. Especially for talking to someone like they are older than they are, or when they always talk of things of shady subjects, and the second you play along you get busted. I have scared myself before, and think what a horrible thing it would be for my wonderful life to be ended for something so dumb. I have a wife, and three beautiful children, and would hate to see that ripped away for just talking to someone candidly.

Makes you not want to talk to anyone under 18, its a shame, because everyone under 18 would be cut off from a nice guy who just wants to treat them on the level that they seem.

Sad really, wheres the freedom of speech?

[lynsey]

no it's not most 17 year-olds are still in high school. Older men can be charming and all of a sudden you have all these promises of freedom and everything you have always wanted and you are too young to realize you are actually being a whore. At 17 I was not even close to reaching sexual maturity and ya knw the guy I lost it o wasn't a perve but I doubt if I met him when I was 18 and in college I would have gone for him. I felt like he honestly just wanted my virginity not sex and he did want to marry me but he wanted to be my first and I think that his main focus was that is wrong.

As to Heron's posts they make no sense and are very off base saying 11 and 12 year olds are ready for sex they are no where near ready for it.

First, let me state that Statutory Rape is a bullshit law. Period.

Secondly... if a girl at 17 is not mentally able to give consent, she should be considered legally retarded. I don't mean that as an insult to mentally challenged people, either.

Thirdly, ha ha... "love" has nothing to do with the law. Would they have condoned my relationship with my wife just because we said, "We love each other and plan to marry!" ??? Doubtful.

The law is the law is the law. And some laws need to be challenged. Statutory Rape laws are a "testament" to American sexual paranoia and lack of touch with reality and nature.

Typical for Americans. :rolleyes:

The Land of the Ignorant and Home of the Hypocrite. America's answer to every problem is "get tough". How about "get SMART"? Prohibition and victimless laws have NEVER worked and NEVER will. But, America is like an ignorant fundamentalist--keep doing the same non-working shit over and over.

Pat Robertson is a good poster boy for AMERICA.

[Libertine]

I'm sorry lynz...but that is a cop-out. You were an ignorant child at 17, and then MAGICALLY when you became 18 (which happens to be the legal age), you were capable mentally to say "yes" or "no"?

Please.

The laws should not be based on the social conditioning factor that a guy can "charm" a 17 year old. For fuck's sake, if she can't determine what she does with her own body at 17--she should be considered legally retarded. I mean even a 10 year old can "JUST SAY NO". ;)

So, by your philosophy, I am a dangerous person. I married my wife when she was 17. I was 23. We had dated over 18 months prior.

Her mother was 14 when she was married to a 19 year old.

My mother was barely 16 when she was married to an 18 year old.

There have been ZERO divorces in my family and they are all extremely successful marriages.

So, by EXAMPLE, your theory is proven to be nothing more than social conditioning by a paranoid, puritan society which has hypocritcally condemned people to longer childhood through their legislation and not through common sense.

I am sorry, but it is NOT common sense to call CONSENSUAL SEX with a 17 year old "rape". That is a MOCKERY of real rape victims!!!!!!!!! And it makes me angry, because one of my aunts was RAPED (at knifepoint by two men) and it trivializes her pain and anguish.


no it's not most 17 year-olds are still in high school. Older men can be charming and all of a sudden you have all these promises of freedom and everything you have always wanted and you are too young to realize you are actually being a whore. At 17 I was not even close to reaching sexual maturity and ya knw the guy I lost it o wasn't a perve but I doubt if I met him when I was 18 and in college I would have gone for him. I felt like he honestly just wanted my virginity not sex and he did want to marry me but he wanted to be my first and I think that his main focus was that is wrong.

As to Heron's posts they make no sense and are very off base saying 11 and 12 year olds are ready for sex they are no where near ready for it.

[Libertine]

There is no REAL freedom of speech, heron. And yes, that IS sad.

It is really sad when there are people out there that use the lie that they are "protecting the children" in order to promote their own interests and power.

If they were REALLY interested in "saving" the children they wouldn't take kids away from the parents who don't abuse them so quickly and place them in foster care. But, again, BIG BROTHER KNOWS BEST.

In my field, I see it and hear it all. Pot smoking daddies and mommies having their kids swept off to chicken house foster care because their parents puffed on a flower.

WHAT THE FUCK ABOUT THE CHILDREN'S FEELINGS? WHAT ABOUT THEIR RIGHTS??

They don't give a fuck. They treat kids like ignorant pieces of meatloaf. Property to be swapped.

It's a real shame that the world can't accept truth and reality--that we all have to live in our little boxes made out of ticky-tacky and serve King George (The Decider).

America is nation that has always been built on the foundations of self-deception, hypocrisy and BULLSHIT. And if they accepted true FREEDOM for one day the whole hologram would collapse.


The human zoo would suck. Especially for talking to someone like they are older than they are, or when they always talk of things of shady subjects, and the second you play along you get busted. I have scared myself before, and think what a horrible thing it would be for my wonderful life to be ended for something so dumb. I have a wife, and three beautiful children, and would hate to see that ripped away for just talking to someone candidly.

Makes you not want to talk to anyone under 18, its a shame, because everyone under 18 would be cut off from a nice guy who just wants to treat them on the level that they seem.

Sad really, wheres the freedom of speech?

[Libertine]

hmm, i believe i'm lost after " I agree. I suppose I am too liberal for the majority". After that, FAMM NORMAL ACLU ASFAR seem very intriguing, but.....I have no idea what it actually is:)

F.A.M.M. stands for FAMILIES AGAINST MANDATORY MINIMUMS
NORML is the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws
ACLU is the American Civil Liberties Union

These are organizations that I believe in at least 75% of their philosophy.

ASFAR is an interesting organization. I use them merely as a "devil's advocate" vehicle to get people to THINK outside the box. :D

[heron]

Lynsey, at 17 you were sexually mature, mentally? shit i can vouch for you on that one now, let alone at 17. You got dupped and are bitter, dont blame other 17 year olds for youre own gulible ignorance.

Like libertine said, you dont wake up on your 18th birthday ready for the world.

If i charm a married woman, and promise her freedom from a shitty marriage, and she goes for it, is she not sexually mature?

I was sexually mature at 12, cause i probably spent 3 hours a day beating off to fix the perpetual erection I had. Sounds like i was ready!

[Libertine]

Well, as far as ASFAR ... :D

Like I said, I merely like to use them in debates just to stimulate thought.

The ACLU, I support 99%. I am a member. The other organizations are just basically about Human Rights.

Anyway, this thread is getting old and off topic.

It was meant to be merely a debate, but turned into something off-topic.

Anyhow, I agree with most of your ideas, but as I said, it's not likely to change and so, I guess it's better to regard the laws (although I disagree with statutory rape laws, not CM) than to break them and lose everything.

[lynsey]

lol trust me I did not get dupped. I was with him for 5 years, was engaged and listed as a joint owner on his house at the time...def did not get supped. I just grew out of that relationship and realized he was very immature and that is why he likes younger women.

I am actually in very good control of my sexuality and have never slept with anyone who was not willing to have a serious relationship with me and I do have a very healthy view on sex and a great respect for my body, heart mind and sexuality. Perhaps if everyone had this view there would be no need for the goverment to decide when sex is appropriatte but since you think it's okay for little girls to have sex at 12 there is an obvious need for goverment control and stat rape laws I think that is sick...I was 90 pounds when I was 12 and all of my 'dates' were supervised

Lynsey, at 17 you were sexually mature, mentally? shit i can vouch for you on that one now, let alone at 17. You got dupped and are bitter, dont blame other 17 year olds for youre own gulible ignorance.

Like libertine said, you dont wake up on your 18th birthday ready for the world.

If i charm a married woman, and promise her freedom from a shitty marriage, and she goes for it, is she not sexually mature?

I was sexually mature at 12, cause i probably spent 3 hours a day beating off to fix the perpetual erection I had. Sounds like i was ready!

[lynsey]

17 and 23 is fine. I see nothing wrong with that. 6 years difference really does not cause that meany akward moments in a relationship.

I'm sorry lynz...but that is a cop-out. You were an ignorant child at 17, and then MAGICALLY when you became 18 (which happens to be the legal age), you were capable mentally to say "yes" or "no"?


Please.

The laws should not be based on the social conditioning factor that a guy can "charm" a 17 year old. For fuck's sake, if she can't determine what she does with her own body at 17--she should be considered legally retarded. I mean even a 10 year old can "JUST SAY NO". ;)

So, by your philosophy, I am a dangerous person. I married my wife when she was 17. I was 23. We had dated over 18 months prior.

Her mother was 14 when she was married to a 19 year old.

My mother was barely 16 when she was married to an 18 year old.

There have been ZERO divorces in my family and they are all extremely successful marriages.

So, by EXAMPLE, your theory is proven to be nothing more than social conditioning by a paranoid, puritan society which has hypocritcally condemned people to longer childhood through their legislation and not through common sense.

I am sorry, but it is NOT common sense to call CONSENSUAL SEX with a 17 year old "rape". That is a MOCKERY of real rape victims!!!!!!!!! And it makes me angry, because one of my aunts was RAPED (at knifepoint by two men) and it trivializes her pain and anguish.

[heron]

I still think you are one sided. Granted, most girls under 20 or so bug the shit out of me and would never be attractive to me, but there are some, especially in the Rainbow scene, or just "hippy" in general, that are amazing. Strong of will, confident, happy, and absolutly beautiful, and it are those that are younger than me by 10 or 12 years, yet still on a level for me to love them if i could.

[lynsey]

so you could romanticly love a 15 year-old? that is sick imoI still think you are one sided. Granted, most girls under 20 or so bug the shit out of me and would never be attractive to me, but there are some, especially in the Rainbow scene, or just "hippy" in general, that are amazing. Strong of will, confident, happy, and absolutly beautiful, and it are those that are younger than me by 10 or 12 years, yet still on a level for me to love them if i could.

[heron]

A woman is a woman, regardless of what you call children.

[lynsey]

a 15 year-old is not a woman no matter how developed her body looks. A woman is a woman, regardless of what you call children.

[heron]

her body doesnt "look" developed, it is. Granted, mentally we are fucking our growth process, but for all nature intended, she is a woman. If that sexually mature woman has the mentality that her age should, that is of a woman btw, then she is a woman.

Was my grandfather not a man when he was on Iwo Jima at 16? was he not a man when he killed for his country? was my grandmother not a woman when she had her second child at 15?

[lynsey]

alright dude well you keep on wanting to fuck 15 year olds and I'll keep on not thinking it's okay.her body doesnt "look" developed, it is. Granted, mentally we are fucking our growth process, but for all nature intended, she is a woman. If that sexually mature woman has the mentality that her age should, that is of a woman btw, then she is a woman.

Was my grandfather not a man when he was on Iwo Jima at 16? was he not a man when he killed for his country? was my grandmother not a woman when she had her second child at 15?

[heron]

its not about fucking 15 year olds. Maybe that is your problem, you think its all about sex. I have never fucked a 15 year old, even when i was 15, and my wife is almost 30. Just because i keep an open mind doesnt mean i am trying to justify lusting over 10th graders as you seem to think.

and you didnt answer my question, was my grandfather not a man in the war?

[Libertine]

Lynz...I understand your position, but you just avoided his prior question. Do we become adults strictly when the law (which is relative to your area, btw) claims we are? Or does something else determine this naturally?

alright dude well you keep on wanting to fuck 15 year olds and I'll keep on not thinking it's okay.

[TheWeatherman]

Itself an illness.

The act is the response to the urge caused by it.

[Libertine]

But, the question ultimately comes back to is it "evil" or a sickness?

If it IS a disorder, than the decision to act is not necessarily free is it?

But, then again, I don't believe in "evil", thus it must be either a natural instinct (or feeling) in some people (like homosexuality) OR it is a disorder--something abnormal that needs to be chemically/psychologically treated (and I'm not just speaking of "counseling" bullshit--but INTENSE THERAPY).

[Alternative_Thinker]

Well, I still stand by my own beliefs on this. As far as pedophilia goes, no, it is NOT "evil". A sadist who take pleasure in seeing the weaker suffer is evil. Way more often than society has the general public believe, a pedophile does not possess a sadistic tendency. If someone is EXCLUSIVELY attracted to prepubescent children, and NO OTHER age groups, then that, in my opinion, is "psychologically ill". But if someone is able to find beauty, sexually and otherwise, in ALL age groups, I personally don't believe there is anything wrong with that.

[lietchi]

Pedophilia is a mental urge, some act on it, some don't (which makes all the difference to me). It is not evil. Also, what is a child? Being attracted to a 15 year old is a whole lot different from being attracted to 6 year olds... (a minor is not necessarily a child)

If the person has committed paedophile crimes I'd say a jail term and SERIOUS counseling and therapy. Recidivism in paedophilia is extremely high...

[heron]

Honestly, shouldnt pedophilia mean you like feet?

[Libertine]

Pedophilia is a mental urge, some act on it, some don't (which makes all the difference to me). It is not evil. Also, what is a child? Being attracted to a 15 year old is a whole lot different from being attracted to 6 year olds... (a minor is not necessarily a child)

If the person has committed paedophile crimes I'd say a jail term and SERIOUS counseling and therapy. Recidivism in paedophilia is extremely high...

The sexual re-offense rate for those who complete treatment is 5.4 percent, versus a 30 percent rate for those who refuse treatment.

But, 30% isn't "extremely high".

Also, the USDOJ statistics show that re-offense is between 3-13%. Which is extremely LOW. I don't know...maybe it's different in Europe.

[lietchi]

Hm, I'd always read repeat offenses were high... Well, no matter, the rest of my post still stands ;)

[Libertine]

:)

Well, like I said...it may be different where you are.

I agree with the majority of your post.

[lietchi]

Well, like I said...it may be different where you are.

Maybe the recidivism is high, but in your country they are worse at catching (repeat) offenders? ;)

[Libertine]

They are also worse at prescribing outlandish, irrational, unconstitutional "penalties".

And not just for sex offenders.

[lietchi]

They are also worse at prescribing outlandish, irrational, unconstitutional "penalties".

And not just for sex offenders.You got my attention... What exactly do you mean?

[Libertine]

Well, the war on drugs for one.

But, there is a new law in my state (and several others) called the "Banishment Law". And it states that sex offenders (not just child molestors or rapists either) cannot LIVE, WORK and TRAVEL within 1,000 FEET of any area where "minors congregrate"...WTF??

This means not only schools and daycares, but churches, shopping malls, grocery stores, movie stores, department stores, bus stops, driveways where kids catch the bus... I mean EVERYWHERE!

Where the hell can ANYONE go and there not be children there? Ha ha...it's really some right-wing crazy ass "get tough" law which ironically makes matters worse. "Homeless sex offenders" wondering the streets now? Seriously!

[Alternative_Thinker]

Sorry to butt in, but...


Well, recidivism in pedophilia is high because pedophilia in itself is not a crime, but a form of sexual orientation. Heterosexuals are attracted to the opposite sex, homosexuals are attracted to the same sex. Pedophiles are attracted to children. Though, once again, I would only classify one as a pedophile when one was EXCLUSIVELY attracted to prepubescent children. Besides, when a heterosexual finds the same sex to be sexually arousing, or a homosexual finds the opposite sex to be sexually arousing, that becomes "bisexual". And how many people are at least slightly bi-curious? I think it'd be safe to say most people. So how about a person who is NOT a pedophile, who CAN find prepubescent children to be sexually arousing? This person, as far as I'm concerned, is simply, for the lack of a better word, "normal".



Anyway, when it's a crime, it's called child molestation. One can be a non-pedophile and still commit this crime and, as far as I understand, that is the case with the majority of child molestation instances. Again, recidivism is high in this case also, because it is often the result of sadism which is a fixation/fetish. At any rate, just because one is able to view a prepubescent child in a sexual way does not mean one is a pedophile or a child molester, nor does it mean one is in need of psychological help. As long as it is not an exclusive thing, as I have said a number of times, I believe one is just as sane as whom we consider to be sane.



Here's an example:



One day, you could be fantasizing about Jessica Alba, and you may brag to your friends about it. Next day, you fantasize about Sharon Osbourne and you may brag to your friends about it. Now, yet another day comes and you find yourself thinking about Dakota Fanning is a sexual way. What happens? Many of you, I'm sure, would FREAK OUT. You can't brag your friends about it. Why? Because she's 12(I think... ok, so she just might be a little too old to be mentioned in this example..*shrug*) years old.



But the thing is, what's so different about merely fantasizing about Dakota Fanning, from merely fantasizing about Jessica Alba and/or Sharon Osbourne? Given that you only view these people as celebrities whom you consider as "unreachable", how is it going to make you a criminal? You're not going to go after them and stalk them for the rest of their lives. You only fantasize about them. Plus, you fantasize about people from various age groups, not just one exclusively. So, to get back to the question of what it is that is different about Fantasizing about Dakota Fanning, from doing so about Jessica Alba and/or Sharon Osbourne: essentially nothing. Are you going to tell me you're a pedophile then? If you did, I'll simply laugh in your face. As far as I'm concerned, you simply react to such stimuli the way you're supposed to.


But then, guess what I just realized. I just realized I'm harsh contradicting. I say pedophiles, those who are exclusively attracted to children, may need psychological treatment, though, at the same time, I have graciously failed to say homosexuals, who are exclusively attracted to the same sex, need psychological treatment. I have also, just as graciously, failed to say that heterosexuals, who are attracted to the opposite sex exclusively, need to receive psychological treatment.

So maybe, JUST MAYBE, pedophilia isn't a "sickness" after all...

[Alternative_Thinker]

aw, dakota fanning still doesn't even have boobies.:confused:

That isn't the point, though. And you of all people should know what I'm trying to say.

[Libertine]

I think AT has made some good points in this thread. I don't agree with all them (especially about the high recidivism of child molestors--considering the stats saying differently and I don't consider less than 30% "high"), but the point is something to be considered.

[Libertine]

Well, I am not familiar with his example, but I think the points were well made.

[Libertine]

I suppose. I don't know though, really. His example still has missing front teeth. Fantazing about a little girl isn't hurting anyone, so he is right, but there is a difference between fantasizing about a minor, and a girl who has yet to hit puberty.

Well, as I said, I am not familiar with his example. I think that I find little girls cute, but not in any sexual sort of way. At least, I don't think so. I mean I don't get sexually aroused by looking at them, and I don't fantasize about them, but I can see the beauty in them. Does that make sense?

That may not be what he is referring to though.

[heron]

Masturbating to Jessica Alba, and a 10 year old are very different. Masturbating to a 15 year old would, to me, be no different than to an 18 year old. Children are the key here, not pubesent minors.

Everyone seems to keep forgetting the pedophilia doesnt apply to a sexually mature post pubesent person.

Would thinking of a 11 year old sexually, and having online sex with them be the same? What is the point in which it is pedophilia.

If you are attracted to pre-sexual children, then that is biologically off some how, but it is hard to say how and why.

I would say anything non-consenting is wrong...hows that?

[Libertine]

Masturbating to Jessica Alba, and a 10 year old are very different. Masturbating to a 15 year old would, to me, be no different than to an 18 year old.

I would say anything non-consenting is wrong...hows that?

I agree. There is a huge difference in 10 and 15. Not so much in 15 and 18.

[zeppelin kid]

The answer is simply mental. There is no demons or devils controlling them.

[Alternative_Thinker]

Well, I will just say that I was trying to raise a point or two in a thread about pedophilia. It would have seemed ridiculous to mention a fantasy involving a 15 year-old since being attracted to a 15 year-old would not be pedophilia.

At any rate, I thank you, Libertine, for acknowledging that at least I was trying to raise a couple points.

[DeadieHeatherBear]

maybe the question should have been about molesters period..
..... molesters... fuckin sick.... pedofiles... even sicker

[TheWeatherman]

Well, I will just say that I was trying to raise a point or two in a thread about pedophilia. It would have seemed ridiculous to mention a fantasy involving a 15 year-old since being attracted to a 15 year-old would not be pedophilia.

At any rate, I thank you, Libertine, for acknowledging that at least I was trying to raise a couple points.

I concur.

[Libertine]

Well, I will just say that I was trying to raise a point or two in a thread about pedophilia. It would have seemed ridiculous to mention a fantasy involving a 15 year-old since being attracted to a 15 year-old would not be pedophilia.

At any rate, I thank you, Libertine, for acknowledging that at least I was trying to raise a couple points.

Yes, I think because many people get pedophilia and child molestor mixed up, they think that pedophilia itself is a crime. But, how could a mere "attraction" be considered a crime? No, it's the act of sexually abusing a child that is a crime. But this, too, is a fine line. What constitutes "molestation"? It depends on the circumstances apparently.

The Legal definition is : " A person commits the offense of child molestation when he or she does any immoral or indecent act to or in the presence of or with any child under the age of 16 years with the intent to arouse or satisfy the sexual desires of either the child or the person. "

What IS an immoral and indecent act?? According to the child/parent advocacy group "WeTheChildren", such acts as touching the child's buttocks or a little girl's not yet formed breasts is inappropriate and crossing the line.

Here is the statement: "The buttocks should never be touched. The area of the breast of young girls is a future erogenous zone and should not be touched."

It is also inappropriate and crossing the line to:
• wash the genitals of a child over 4.
• walk in the children's room without knocking.
• walk around the house with little or no clothing on.
• allowing the child (3 or over) to sleep in parent's bed with them.
• being intimate with your partner with child around.
• talking about genitalia (even calling them "pet" names like "winkie).
• flirting with other adults in the presence of children.
• taking a child of the opposite sex into the restroom.
• taking a shower or bath with children over 4.

I can half understand SOME of these, but holy shit! How far do you go?

My wife or I can't place medicine on my child's nutsack if he has a rash?

My little girl (when she turns 3) can't jump in the bed with mom and dad after a nightmare?

I can't tell me son to aim his "peter" better in the bathroom?

I can't kiss and snuggle up to my wife in the sight of my children?

That's just fucking absurd.

I raise my children the way I want to, and I don't abuse or molest them. I raise them to respect others, not be ashamed of themselves, and to know about sex, drugs, guns, and other issues that many parents try to hide away.

My son knows to never talk to strangers, go with one, never touch a gun, never take a pill or capsule from a stranger and he knows how babies are made, oK?

Shit. These fucking paranoid nutfreaks are ruining society with their puritan bullshit thinking the Sex is innately "sinful" and Children are stupid and never curious.

I hardly think my son or daughter sleeping in our bed after having a bad dream is SEXUAL. Give me a fucking break!

Only a group of anal morons would TRIVIALIZE sexual abuse in such a way to compare these things (the list above) to those horrible acts (molestation and rape).