Why are Christians such homophobes?

[abbadabba]

Why are Christians obsessed with who complete strangers have sex with, when Jesus never once mentioned homosexuality? It wasn't even on your god's top ten list of sins. In fact, there are more references in the Bible prohibiting the eating of meat than there are prohibiting homosexuality.

With that said, I challenge any Christian to give a rational argument against civil rights for gays in the form of marriage, adoption, and military service.

[barefootnikki]

Why are Christians obsessed with who complete strangers have sex with, when Jesus never once mentioned homosexuality?
Nothing like a good generalization huh? I'm a Christian and i am far from obsessed with who a complete stranger has sex with. I am female and love men but i also love women. What's not to love? How about you dump the blanket statements and come back with something a little more specific. Also, good luck finding Christians here that are worried about homosexuality. From the bit i've read there are some true Jesus lovin' hippies around here and all they do is love others.

peace
barefootnikki

that said... i would "guess" that like most religions some groups of people like to twist things to fit their own prejudices so they can feel that God is on their side.

[Aberfoyle]

I believe that in the chapter Levictus something along the lines of "Do not lie in bed with a man as you would a woman" is written. So I suppose this is the root.



As for rational arguments from Christians against gay marriage, their 'rational' argument is "Its wrong in the eyes of god". So they believe that is reason enough for gay marriage to be against the law.



To that I say, -We must preserve the seperation of church and state-



And as far as this generalizing goes, I think it is fair to generalize that orthodox christians are anti-gay. These days there is much more unorthodoxy in Christianity than there used to be though so "Christians are homophobes" is unfair.

[J_Lazarus]

Its hardly the few verses in Leviticus and Deuteronomy that condemn homosexuality. If you read the Book of Romans, there is quite alot to say - not just against homosexual action, but even the thought or inclination of homosexuality.

Thus, Christians are absolutely right when they say that the Bible condemns homosexuality in both the Old and New Testaments and therefore should be frowned upon as a moral wrong.

However - is it a moral wrong? How can they justify this in an intellectual way instead of just ranting off sleep-stimulating verses from the scriptures?

I contend that there is no wrong with homosexuality - and thus the Bible is incorrect, and bigoted.

Not that we can really condemn them - the writers at that time were simply products of their society in that particular way. Can't expect humans to rise above all of their society's incorrect views - as we can only be human.

But that's just my own two cents.

- JL

[Barefoot_Surfer]

I am going to get shot down in flames here. But I am a great believer in a balanced argument and showing the facts as they are. The Bible clearly states that homosexuality is wrong and is a sin. Genesis 19 states this nicely. If anybody knows the story of Sodom and Gomorrah will know what happened.

Genesis 19
4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom-both young and old-surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."

Guess what happened to those two cities.

Genesis 19
24 Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah-from the LORD out of the heavens. 25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities-and also the vegetation in the land.

Call me old fasioned but the Bible also states that sex outside the context of marrage is also a sin. All sin carries the same weight in God's eyes. But the Bible also states that we must love the sinner but hate the sin. Sex is inbuilt in to us. But we do not have to act on these desires. The trouble with homosexuality it is about self worship. It is written all over the Bible that you should not worship anything else other than God. But if you love the lord but are homosexually inclined you are probably better of giving your services to the Lord. Celebacy is are hard thing to do sometimes.
Matt

[abbadabba]

Call me old fasioned but the Bible also states that sex outside the context of marrage is also a sin. All sin carries the same weight in God's eyes. But the Bible also states that we must love the sinner but hate the sin. Sex is inbuilt in to us. But we do not have to act on these desires.
What would you have a homosexual do? Deny the truth and be celibate their entire life? "You don't have to act on desires" is one of the dumbest arguments Christians come up with when it comes to homosexuality.

The trouble with homosexuality it is about self worship. It is written all over the Bible that you should not worship anything else other than God. But if you love the lord but are homosexually inclined you are probably better of giving your services to the Lord. Celebacy is are hard thing to do sometimes.
How is it about self-worship? Heterosexuals act on their desires without being condemned by the Christian world, so why should homosexuals be any different?

[Barefoot_Surfer]

How is it about self-worship? Heterosexuals act on their desires without being condemned by the Christian world, so why should homosexuals be any different?

Well I am a great believer that it should very well be condemed. It is society trying to mold the church. A few years ago it was condemed. I know of a case where the church had to disipline a couple of people. Guess what it was. Adultery! Basically one girl I knew was sleeping with this married man. She confessed this to the minister and that set of a chain of events that led to a meeting being held. Lots of discussions with the parties involved.
Matt

[phunkymonkey]

I think one of the biggest problems with the views on Christians is that there are so many people out there that say they are Christian but have never sat down & thought anything out. I am a Christian & am not speaking against Christianity, but I have seen a lot of people who will scream at you about a religious topic, but they don't really even know what they are saying... these same people might or might not even go to church or read the Bible, but they know they are 'supposed to' be angry about it....

So many Christians will speak loudly against homosexuality and ignore many other things... One time Will & Grace was about to come on the tv & the person that was in the room with me got angry & changed the channel quickly saying he wasn't going to watch that 'fag'... I said that you can't be so upset about that when you are just going to watch another show where heterosexuals are having sex with everyone & that is supposed to be the same... but most Christians will not get into a heated debate about those things.

I think we get a lot of that because the older generations were raised in a society where it was much more socially unacceptable... and so the older members of the churches or the pastors pass it down that it is horribly wrong & you should be angry about it too.... & most people never get past that.

But in the end, Christians should not judge people outside of the church. If someone is not Christian, it does not matter if they are sinning because they have no reason not to. And we do not always know the heart of people that are in the church. A pastor could be cheating on his wife, but on the outside he looks fine & holy. It is up to God to convict someone of a sin & if they do change it should be for that reason & not because someone screamed them into submission.

[Epiphany]

Call me old fasioned but the Bible also states that sex outside the context of marrage is also a sin. All sin carries the same weight in God's eyes. But the Bible also states that we must love the sinner but hate the sin. Sex is inbuilt in to us. But we do not have to act on these desires.
I could not agree more.

[abbadabba]

Well I am a great believer that it should very well be condemed. It is society trying to mold the church. A few years ago it was condemed. I know of a case where the church had to disipline a couple of people. Guess what it was. Adultery!

Adultery is NOT the same thing as homosexual sex or heterosexual sex, and you know it. Adultery is immoral because it actually HARMS someone. Sex, whether gay or straight, harms no one.

[Epiphany]

Adultery is NOT the same thing as homosexual sex or heterosexual sex, and you know it. Adultery is immoral because it actually HARMS someone. Sex, whether gay or straight, harms no one.

However, the Bible condems them both as a sin. I wouldn't say that sex doesn't harm anyone. Sex plays on both your physical and emotional needs. That's why God says that each man would have his own wife. Of course, not many people take that to heart in this day and age and that's why we have all of the sexual issues that we do.

[abbadabba]

However, the Bible condems them both as a sin. I wouldn't say that sex doesn't harm anyone. Sex plays on both your physical and emotional needs. That's why God says that each man would have his own wife. Of course, not many people take that to heart in this day and age and that's why we have all of the sexual issues that we do.
All the sexual issues that we do? Like what? I, for one, think it's great that society has progressed beyond the Puritan view of sex. Any "sexual issues" that our society has have probably existed for ages, but people are just now starting to talk about them.

[phunkymonkey]

I think the point Barefoot_Surfer was trying to make is that the churches should not speak so loudly & angrily against certain topics while they ignore other issues.... The story that he told happened to involve adultery, but I can only assume that if the members of his church had been unmarried teens having sex that he would have told thatstory instead. I do not think that he was trying to compare adultery & homosexual sex... the topics are very different as abbadabba said.

As far as 'sexual issues'... I do think that it is good that we are able to talk about more things now & that yes, they have gone on a long time behind closed doors. But I think that it is sad that as much knowledge as we have now, people are still going to think that nothing bad can happen to them, it is always going to be someone else. And so a lot of time nothing is discussed until there is already a problem (sorry to speak so vaguely!)

(By the way Epiphany, I love those fairy wings!) ;)

[Epiphany]

So father-less children, teen pregnancies, and an outbreak of sexual disease is progress? This goes back to God cursing Babylon, and Sodom and Gomorrah for their sexually immorality. I'm glad the Puritans viewed sex the way they did. Of Course, nowadays, wearing a big red letter on your chest would be the, "cool", thing to do. "How many red A's can you get sewn on?". But back to the point, God said that homosexuality was wrong, and that is why us Christians are against the notion.

[abbadabba]

So father-less children, teen pregnancies, and an outbreak of sexual disease is progress?
Fatherless children is not a sexual problem.

Teen pregnancies - On the decline for several decades now.

Outbreak of sexual disease - Also on the decline since the birth of modern medicine. We just happen to live in an age with one very terrible new STD, which could have just as easily sprang up during any point in human history. Every other STD is declining thanks to us sinful, devil-worshipping atheists who actually take the time to educate kids and third-world foreigners about sex...which you Christians tend to be opposed to.

I'm glad the Puritans viewed sex the way they did.
Then I don't suppose we have anything else to say to each other since you disagree with my opinion that freedom is a good thing. However, I'll finish disproving your argument for the sake of others reading this thread.

But back to the point, God said that homosexuality was wrong, and that is why us Christians are against the notion.
How arrogant of you to assume that you know what God is thinking. Doesn't the Bible also say to fix your OWN life before you go condemning others? Of course, people like yourself ignore any parts of the Bible that don't suit you. Is your own life so completely sinless that you consider yourself better than homosexuals?

[Epiphany]

How arrogant of you to assume that you know what God is thinking. Doesn't the Bible also say to fix your OWN life before you go condemning others? Of course, people like yourself ignore any parts of the Bible that don't suit you. Is your own life so completely sinless that you consider yourself better than homosexuals?
Um, the scriptures about homosexually and it's punishment were clearly pointed out, so how did I assume anything? Your question simply asked why are Christians, "homophobic", I answered by telling you that in the Bible, God says that homosexuality is a sin. Because it's a sin, Christians oppose it. No one said anything about being blameless. You asked a specific question, you got a specific answer. It's amusing how people assume that Christians believe they are perfect. Did I not agree with the one in an earlier post who said, "Love the sinner hate the sin"?

[SageDreamer]

Perhaps it's the way it is becaus the church is a voluntary institution. People aren't legally required to go to church--thank God--and so the church has to recruit (i.e., evangelize, proselytize) to get people in the door.

If people have sex and reproduce, they're likely to send their children to church. Then those people grow up and send their children to church. If people have gay sex or lesbian sex, no future church-goers result.

[phunkymonkey]

Hehe... That makes me think of natural selection SageDreamer ;)


Originally posted by Epiphany
Your question simply asked why are Christians, "homophobic", I answered by telling you that in the Bible, God says that homosexuality is a sin.

I think that this question is not so simple... even if Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin does not mean that they should be afraid of them, as 'homophopic' would imply ~ or so angry towards them.

[Warisfortheweakminde]

Indeed homophobic is not the same as disagreeing with homosexuality, it is being either afraid or pissed off by it. So technically a true christian (of which there are very few nowdays) would not be homophobic persay, but more inclined not to perform any homosexual deboncles themselves.

[IcE-MaN]

This again i see....Epiphany,I totaly back you up on this and everything you said.If the people that do believe in the word of God studies the bible they would already know this.And those who have no clue that just wanna put the word down so to speak they would also know the answer to these questions.And Abbadaba why is it always something like this dealing with homosexuals and not other debates?? if you think christians only care about this issue and not others you have no clue the christian coalition of america deal with all types of negativity from different TV shows to the people running for all types of office.Not trying to get you upset by writing this but you must know most of us christians are not the way you percieve us to be.But you are entitled to your opinion and im not going to hold that against you ...

[Epiphany]

I think that this question is not so simple... even if Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin does not mean that they should be afraid of them, as 'homophopic' would imply ~ or so angry towards them.It's not a matter of fear but a matter of respecting God's will. I don't have any anger towards someone when it comes to sexual preference. I just know that God spoke against homosexuality, and as a believer, I follow his word. I definetly don't agree with making gay marriage legal because again, according to the Bible, marriage was meant to be between a man and woman (hey, his rules) but I don't go into some rage over seeing two people of the same sex together. Hell, I've kissed girls before in the past. Course that was before I was saved.

Thanks Ice-man :)

[phunkymonkey]

While I agree that some Christians are just as concerned with other issues as Ice-Man was saying, I do think that a lot of churches will preach against homosexuality & other 'hot' issues & ignore other topics. They are often taught to hate more than they are taught to love. If they are not taught by their church to hate they will see other Christains acting that way on the television or in the papers.

It is the church's job to teach love & mercy & the church members' job to learn these lessons. But too many people ignore this & act the way they think they are supposed to... and so people look down on Christianity because so many people that live in America consider themselves Christian even when they know very little about it.

[Lilyrayne]

I am a Christian and I am not a homophobe to any extent. I don't really even pay that much attention to one's sexual orientation unless they want me to, even though some people would say I should. I love gay men, most of them are so nice and fun to hang around. Gay women on the other hand, are the completely opposite, in my experience they have been very bitchy and mean. Not sure why the trend seems to be this way, but it is. But my point is, I look at the person for who they are, not what their sexual preference is, even if I take note of it. When I do take note of it, it's usually like taking note that someone has blonde hair, or has a blue shirt on.

I do however believe that homosexuality is wrong, and I would do my best to not engage in it. I acknowledge that no one is perfect and some people are going to be attracted to the opposite sex... there have even been a few women I've seen in my life that I wouldn't mind "doing". But I feel like it's a bad idea to indulge in that for a variety of reasons, some of them being my personal religious beliefs, pratical and logical beliefs, and the fact that sometimes I wonder if I'm truly attracted to that or just attracted to the mystery, since I've never experienced it. I'm pretty sure after if I experienced it, I would no longer be interested... It would probably just feel weird.

Anyway my whole point is, I know that a stereotype of a Christian is to be homophobic, and to be honest I do know a lot of "Christians" and Christians who really are homophobic becasue of what they've been taught growing up. But on the flip side there are just as many tolerant and loving Christians who realize the truth about this matter, and aren't homophobic at all. I feel bad for the people who are homophobic as well as the people that are hurt by them because of their homophobia... it's such needless stress that gets either them nowhere. So much more could be accomplished if they would just get along and be nice, and love them for what they are: human.

[Epiphany]

While I agree that some Christians are just as concerned with other issues as Ice-Man was saying, I do think that a lot of churches will preach against homosexuality & other 'hot' issues & ignore other topics. They are often taught to hate more than they are taught to love. If they are not taught by their church to hate they will see other Christains acting that way on the television or in the papers.
I am blessed to be part of a church that not only teaches against what is wrong, but also teaches to have love for one another no matter what.

[abbadabba]

And Abbadaba why is it always something like this dealing with homosexuals and not other debates??

You tell me. Christians are the ones that condemn them, as though you're free of sin yourselves. The Bible has a few passages about homosexual sex (probably a very small amount compared to other Roman Empire works). There are more passages about other sins that Christians are generally silent about.


if you think christians only care about this issue and not others you have no clue the christian coalition of america deal with all types of negativity from different TV shows to the people running for all types of office.Not trying to get you upset by writing this but you must know most of us christians are not the way you percieve us to be.But you are entitled to your opinion and im not going to hold that against you ...You claim that you're not the way I perceive you, and then you mention the Christian Coalition as a positive force in America. If Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson are your idea of good Christians, I think that pretty much verifies that you ARE the way I perceive you. The Christian Coalition is one of the largest hate groups in America.

[mynameiskc]

i'm a christian. i don't care who someone has sex with unless it's a family member or forced. but to be honest, there's a lot of areas in the bible where i can't help but say "what the fuck?" god doesn't make mistakes, men do. so, as i christian, i make a point to follow christ's fundamental teachings, i trust them rather well. love everyone, no sin is unforgiveable, be a shining light to others and bring peace to all you can.

[ChiefCowpie]

I just know that God spoke against homosexuality, and as a believer, I follow his word.
did you hear him personally or you just going by what people told you?

[abbadabba]

This is a rant from the Real Live Preacher's blog. It pretty much summarizes my opinion of homophobic "Christians."



So you want to talk about homosexuality? YOU want to talk about homosexuality? You want to talk about homosexuALITY?

Sit down CHRIStian. Give me that bible you’re waving before you hurt yourself. I’m going to resist the temptation to snatch it from your hands and beat you with it. I am your worst nightmare, a Texas preacher who knows The Book better than you do.

You cannot wave your unread bible and scare me. I know its larger story and I will tear you a new biblical asshole.

Show me your scriptures. Show me how you justify condemning homosexual people.

Show me what you got, Christian. The Sodom story? That story is about people who wanted to commit a brutal rape. Let’s all say it together, “God doesn’t like rape”. You could have listened to your heart and learned that, Christian. Move on. What else you got?

A weak-ass little passage from Leviticus? Are you kidding me? Are you prepared to adhere to the whole Levitical code of behavior? No? Then why would you expect others to? What else?

Two little passages - two verses from Romans and one from I Corinthians. There you stand, your justification for a worldwide campaign of hatred is written on two limp pieces of paper. I know these passages, both their greater context and the original language. I could show you why you have nothing, but there is something more important you need to see.

Come with me to the church cellar. Come now and don’t delay. I am shaking with anger and fighting the urge to grab you by the collar and drag you down these steps.

You didn’t know the church had a cellar? Oh yes, every church does. Down, down we go into the darkness. Don’t slip on the flagstone and never mind the heat.

There, do you see the iron furnace door, gaping open? Do you see the roaring flames? Do you see the huge man with glistening muscles, covered with soot? Do you see him feeding the fire as fast as can with his massive, scooped shovel?

He feeds these flames with the bible, with every book, chapter, and verse that American Christians must burn to support our bloated lifestyles, our selfishness, our materialism, our love of power, our neglect of the poor, our support of injustice, our nationalism, and our pride.

See how frantically he works? Time is short, and he has much to burn. The prophets, the Shema, whole sections of Matthew, most of Luke, the entire book of James. Your blessed 10 commandments? Why would you want to post them on courtroom walls when you’ve burned them in your own cellar?

Do you see? DO YOU SEE? Do you see how we rip, tear, and burn scripture to justify our lives?

The heat from this cursed furnace rises up and warms the complacent worshippers in the pews above. The soot from the fire blackens our stained glass so that we may not see out and no one wants to see in.

Do you smell the reek of this injustice? It is a stink in the nostrils of the very living God. We are dressed in beautiful clothes and we wear pretty smiles, but we stink of this blasphemous holocaust.

Every church in America has a cellar like this. We must shovel 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, because every chapter and book we ignore must be burned to warm our comfy pews.

And you come to me with two little scraps of scripture to justify your persecution of God’s children?

Sit down Christian. Sit down and be you silent.

How long has it been since you forgot that we were called to walk the earth as pilgrims? Do you not remember when HE told us to give our coats to those in need and sell our possessions to help the poor? Did you forget how the first church had all things in common so that none would lack.

Did you forget the day He told us that whatever we did for the oppressed we did for Him, and whatever we withheld from them was kept from Him as well?

Sit down Christian. You have not earned the right to speak to this generation. The right to speak is earned with love.

Take back your bible. Take it back and start reading it. Fall in love again with Jesus. Sell what you must and walk the earth. Let your love be astonishing and people may one day listen to your words.

Even now you might be saved. Our God is merciful and forgiveness awaits.

[abbadabba]

I'd like to speak to this issue in 4 parts.

Part One - Hypocrisy:
If Christians were honest, they would admit that they do not abide by all the commandments of scripture themselves. I don't mean we try and fail. I mean we deliberately choose to ignore scriptures that are not convenient for our lifestyle. As I pointed out in my post yesterday, the amount of scripture that is ignored, scorned, and abused by modern Christians is appalling.
I think we should afford our homosexual brothers and sisters the same luxury. Perhaps we should offer them space at our bonfire to burn their little handful of scriptures as we burn the bible chapter and verse.
We should all agree that none of us are able or willing to follow all the teachings of scripture. Let the one who is obeying God's word ask for explanations from others.
In my book, that settles the argument, and there is no reason to go further. However, if you are determined to hold homosexuals to a higher standard, demanding detailed explanations of why they do not obey minor parts of the bible while all of Christendom tramples on the very heart of scripture, move on to part two:

Part Two - The Bible and homosexuality:
(I’m indebted to my new friend B. in Dallas for these thoughts)
The bible never addresses the subject of homosexuality. The idea of sexual identity was not a part of human thought until very recently. The bible addresses some specific homosexual acts in very specific contexts.
The idea of two people in a loving, committed homosexual relationship was not understood in the ancient Hebrew world and is not a subject in the bible.
Very credible biblical scholars treat the passages in question as specific commands against specific acts, and not as a wholesale prohibition on a homosexual orientation.
For many people, understanding this obvious limitation of the bible is all that is needed. The bible does not address the broad subject of sexual orientation because it was written before that was an issue. Any specific condemnation of homosexual acts must be seen as just that – a specific condemnation of an act in a specific context.
However, if that sounds too wishy-washy to you, if it sounds too slippery and subjective, let me now speak to all 6 of the passages in the bible that are thought by some people to address the issue of homosexuality.

Part Three – Exegesis
There are exactly 6 scriptures that are thought to address homosexuality. I’ll either quote the passage or provide a link so that you can read it.
The story of the destruction of Sodom – Genesis 19:1-29. If you read this story, you’ll quickly see that the men of the city of Sodom wanted to commit a brutal, homosexual rape (is there any other kind?). We simply cannot condemn a sexual orientation because of a rape. There is a heterosexual rape described in the next passage we will examine together. Shall we condemn heterosexuality because of this rape?
Any reasonable person will understand that this passage has nothing to say about loving, consensual homosexual relationships.
Judges 19:1-30 is a sad story of human evil of the type that are often recounted in scripture. It is basically a retelling of the Sodom story in a different context. This time, however, the men actually did rape a woman. This passage speaks to the need for God's love in a brutal world. It has no bearing on the question of homosexual orientation for the same reason that the Sodom story is not applicable. Both of these stories condemn ignorance and sexual brutality, but not homosexuality.
Texts 3 and 4 are both in Leviticus and make up a part of the Old Testament Levitical code.
Leviticus 18:22 – “Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.”
Leviticus 20:13 – “If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.”
The code of rules and behaviors in Leviticus does not apply to Christians. No Christian group I know demands full compliance with this ancient code of behavior. If we did we would have to keep kosher laws. We don’t even demand compliance with the sexual rules in Leviticus. If we did, we would allow polygamy, which is lawful in Leviticus. Unless you are prepared to obey all the rules in Leviticus, you cannot blame the homosexual for not feeling bound to obey them. To point to these two verses and demand selective compliance is ludicrous.
The Old Testament really has nothing specific to say to Christians about homosexuality. We turn now to the New Testament.
Jesus had nothing to say on the subject of homosexuality. His absence of comment does not support or condemn homosexuality. As I’ve noted, the idea of sexual orientation was not a part of human thinking. It’s not surprising that Jesus never addressed what was not an issue.
Paul discusses specific homosexual acts twice. These passages are the only two times homosexual behavior is mentioned in the New Testament.
I Corinthians 6:9 – “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders”
Male prostitutes and homosexual offenders. Can someone explain to me why we would condemn an entire orientation because of the prohibition of these specific acts?
The Greek words Paul used in this passage include the word for a young, effeminate male prostitute and the word for the older man who paid to have sex with him.
We can acknowledge that the bible condemns prostitution and a system where a younger man makes his living committing sex acts for money with older men. But we cannot condemn homosexuality in general because homosexual prostitution was condemned.
Paul condemns many heterosexual acts in his writings, even in this very verse, yet we do not condemn heterosexuality.
Romans 1:18-29 is the single most important passage dealing with homosexual acts. It is the one most often quoted and it is clearly the closest thing we find to condemnation. Verse 27 is the most specific verse.
I simply ask you to read this entire passage with an open mind. Paul says that those who reject God will be “given over to a shameful lusts”. They will engage in many acts that are not pleasing to God. Men will “burn with lust for one another” (verse 27)
I have seen sexuality perverted and used for evil in many contexts. The faithful and monogamous homosexuals that I know do not burn with lust for other men. They express their sexuality with each other, just as married heterosexuals do.
I don’t know exactly what Paul meant by this passage. I know he was describing people who chose not to worship God and then "burned with lust for other men." I don't know exactly what he meant, but I know this DOES NOT describe the homosexual Christians I know, who love God with great passion and are quietly committed to each other.

Part Four – Conclusion
Those are the 6 passages in the bible that are thought to address the subject of homosexuality. The Old Testament passages amount to nothing and the two New Testament passages are ambiguous at best and highly open to interpretation.
I do not think the bible teaches that every expression of homosexual love is sinful. The scriptural witness on this subject is shaky at best.
Even if you do not buy my claim that we have no right to demand specific explanation of scriptures from homosexuals since we don’t provide similar explanations for the hundreds of passages we blatantly ignore…
Even if you do not agree that the Bible never really addresses the subject of homosexuality as a sexual orientation…
Even if you reject my biblical analysis and decide that the bible is condemning of homosexuals…
Would you at least agree that the passages are ambiguous and open to many interpretations? Would you at least agree that others may responsibly interpret them and not agree with you?
If you could at least acknowledge that scripture is far from clear on this subject, then perhaps you would be willing to err on the side of compassion. Perhaps you would be willing to open your churches to our homosexual brothers and sisters, trusting them to read the bible just as you do, with love and hoping for Grace from God.

[mebesideme]

I personally am not Christian; nor am I homophobic. I believe there are several reasons for this fear among Christians. First, it does specifically say in the Bible that being Gay is wrong. Also, in the Catholic Church, the image many people get when thinking about homosexuality is of priests sexually abusing boys. There has been many a scandal with a gay priest.

[Epiphany]

I cannot personally think of any Christian I know who fears homosexuality. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I certainly do not fear it. You claim that many christians condem those who practice a radical lifestyle, and quite of few of them may. But on the other hand, quite a few of them don't. Any Christian who really tries to live by the book will not pick and choose the scriptures they wish to follow. A true Christian will try to follow all of Christ's teachings and not single out what is most convinent to them. If someone claims to be a Christian and protests homosexuality, but they themselves are caught up in an adulterous relationship, or they lie and steal, then yes, I can see your point about hypocrisy. But not all Christians are the same because not all people are the same. Some people claim they are Christians, but they decide what part of the word they wish to follow and what part they wish to omit. However, some Christians actually try to follow all of the scriptures and lead a lifestyle like that of Christ. You cannot judge a group of people based on the actions of a few.

The most important part of your point was when you said, quote: "I don't think". Implying your own personal interpretation of what it means. You say that homosexually isn't discussed in detail in the bible , but think of like this. Every relationship in the bible is between a man and a woman. Human life is created between a man and a woman. God created Eve for Adam and together they had children. The passage you discredit that discusses a man lying with another man to be sinful, (Leviticus 18:22), seems pretty blunt. If it straight out says that a man lying with another man is detestable to God, then apparently it is.

[cellotux]

Homosexuality, along with other forms of sexual immorality, is partially responsible for the present AIDS epidemic in the world. This is hardly up for debate, and it is a very serious problem. Sexual Immorality = Death. Just look at Africa if you don't believe it. Those of us who condemn this vigorously are doing so because we care about the continued existence of our civilization - not out of so-called "homophobia." Homophobic is just a stupid psycho-babble term that doesn't describe any real human condition. Besides it is an ignorant word.

"Homo" in Greek means "same"
"Phobia" in Greek means "fear"

So, strictly rendered the word means "Fear of Similarity."
I don't believe that is what you mean when you use the word.

[Christian]

The point that God rained fire and brimstone on two cities over the matter most likly has something to do with it.

[IcE-MaN]

dude thats not the way i am....i disagree with homosexual marriages...so what i have nothing against anyone who is gay,i have a few friends that are gay and they know where i stand on the issue. But when i say im against the marriage .i agree with you not all christians are like i am im not perfect by no means and i dont go around condeming anyone.I just know what the Bible says and try to obey it as much as i can...as a matter of fact if the world keeps going like it is there is gonna be nothing but anarchy in the future first it was about the pledge...One nation under GOD..then prayer in school....then the ten commandments....what the hell?? whats next?? about what you wrote up there ..not all preachers are hippocrites......nor is Christian Coalition the biggest hate group and if by chance it is....i dont guess i need to be in it.. i wasnt raised that way to be raicist.......

I totaly aggre with you ephipahy

[abbadabba]

Any Christian who really tries to live by the book will not pick and choose the scriptures they wish to follow. A true Christian will try to follow all of Christ's teachings and not single out what is most convinent to them.
Bull. I have never met a single Christian intent on following everything the Bible says. When is the last time you took the following passages into account?

"Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourself every girl who has never slept with a man." (Numbers 31:17-18)

"The Lord commands: "... slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women" (Ezechial 9:4-6)

"When the Lord delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the males .... As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves." (Deuteronomy 20:13-14)

"... Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead with the edge of the sword and; also the women and little ones.... every male and every woman that has lain with a male you shall utterly destroy." (Judges 21:10-12)

"This is what the Lord says: Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass .... And Saul ... utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword." (1 Samuel 15:3,7-8)

"The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their women with child ripped open." (Hosea 13:16)


"A curse on him who is lax in doing the LORD's work!
A curse on him who keeps his sword from bloodshed!" (Jeremiah 48:10)




If someone claims to be a Christian and protests homosexuality, but they themselves are caught up in an adulterous relationship, or they lie and steal, then yes, I can see your point about hypocrisy. But not all Christians are the same because not all people are the same. Some people claim they are Christians, but they decide what part of the word they wish to follow and what part they wish to omit. However, some Christians actually try to follow all of the scriptures and lead a lifestyle like that of Christ. You cannot judge a group of people based on the actions of a few.

Christ never once condemned homosexuals, like you do.



The most important part of your point was when you said, quote: "I don't think". Implying your own personal interpretation of what it means. You say that homosexually isn't discussed in detail in the bible , but think of like this. Every relationship in the bible is between a man and a woman. Human life is created between a man and a woman.
The concept of homosexual relationships simply did not exist at the time of the Bible. Homosexual sex, sure, but not homosexual relationships. The idea of sexual orientation is only a couple hundred years old.


God created Eve for Adam and together they had children. The passage you discredit that discusses a man lying with another man to be sinful, (Leviticus 18:22), seems pretty blunt. If it straight out says that a man lying with another man is detestable to God, then apparently it is.
Again, look at the verses I posted above. If you've kept your sword from bloodshed, you seem pretty detestable in your god's eyes too.

[abbadabba]

Homosexuality, along with other forms of sexual immorality, is partially responsible for the present AIDS epidemic in the world. This is hardly up for debate, and it is a very serious problem. Sexual Immorality = Death. Just look at Africa if you don't believe it.
It seems to me like most people with AIDS in Africa are heterosexuals. Yep, the statistics back me up on that one.

Those of us who condemn this vigorously are doing so because we care about the continued existence of our civilization - not out of so-called "homophobia."

Bullshit. You're telling me that you'd stop your campaign of hate if a cure for AIDS was discovered tomorrow? Somehow I doubt it.


Homophobic is just a stupid psycho-babble term that doesn't describe any real human condition. Besides it is an ignorant word.
What is ignorant is equivocating on the commonly-used definition of words instead of addressing the actual argument. We both know perfectly well what homophobia is, so let's cease these irrelevant linguistics debates.

[abbadabba]

The point that God rained fire and brimstone on two cities over the matter most likly has something to do with it.According to the Bible, Sodom and Gomorra were destroyed because the citizens were practicing rape, not because they were homosexuals.

How come your god hasn't rained fire and brimstone on San Francisco or Key West or Amsterdam anytime recently?

[abbadabba]

as a matter of fact if the world keeps going like it is there is gonna be nothing but anarchy in the future first it was about the pledge...One nation under GOD..then prayer in school....then the ten commandments....what the hell?? whats next??

If right-wing Christian zealots would stop trying to impose their religion on the rest of the country in the first place, then those controversies would not exist.

[TARABELLE]

Every relationship in the bible is between a man and a woman. What abour Ruth and her mother-in-law? Her love seemed to be more than a platonic relationship.

[Epiphany]

Bull. I have never met a single Christian intent on following everything the Bible says. When is the last time you took the following passages into account?
So I suppose you are the type of person that believes..... "Pluck out thine eye", means to literally pluck your eye out


Christ never once condemned homosexuals, like you do
I did? When did I do this? I used the bible verses you pointed out that said it was destesable in God's eyes, to point out why religious people feel it is wrong. I said that I don't AGREE with it because of what the Bible says. Please show me where I was condemning anyone who practices homosexuality. Apparently it means something if it's mentioned in the bible.


The concept of homosexual relationships simply did not exist at the time of the Bible. Homosexual sex, sure, but not homosexual relationships. The idea of sexual orientation is only a couple hundred years old.
So, you know for a fact that some 2,000 years ago, a man did not have feelings for another man? Were you there? If you honestly don't believe that, then let's look at it like this. Notice the book of Revelation. It is a book of prophecy. Meaning, things that were to happen after it was written. Things of Revelation are happening today. So, if homosexuality was not taking place back then (which I highly doubt that it was not), then the passages that speak against it in the Bible, were prophetically written, knowing that it would happen in the future.


Again, look at the verses I posted above. If you've kept your sword from bloodshed, you seem pretty detestable in your god's eyes too.
Well, if I oppose something that doesn't agree with the word of God, then technically, I am fighting the Christian fight of faith.

As far as Sodom and Gomorrah.... They were destroyed because of violence AND sexual immorality. 1 Corinthians mentiones that male prostitues and homosexual offenders will not inherit the kingdom of God. If you feel that has no meaning, then why is mentioned in the Bible?

If the Bible says something is wrong, I try not to do it. Obviously, no one is perfect. I have friends with different sexual orientations. I don't agree with it, but I don't fear them as you claim I do.


Thanks again, IcE-MaN

[abbadabba]

So I suppose you are the type of person that believes..... "Pluck out thine eye", means to literally pluck your eye out
You're the one who claims that the Bible is fairly straightforward in condemning homosexuals (and probably lots of other groups who lead different lives than you do). If you're willing to allow a more liberal interpretation for "pluck out thine eye" or "keep your sword in bloodshed," why not allow homosexuals the same leeway with biblical passages?



I did? When did I do this? I used the bible verses you pointed out that said it was destesable in God's eyes, to point out why religious people feel it is wrong. I said that I don't AGREE with it because of what the Bible says. Please show me where I was condemning anyone who practices homosexuality. Apparently it means something if it's mentioned in the bible.
The passage I quoted from the Real Live Preacher blog already addressed each verse in which the Bible supposedly condemns homosexuality. You did not respond to it yet.



So, you know for a fact that some 2,000 years ago, a man did not have feelings for another man? Were you there? If you honestly don't believe that, then let's look at it like this. Notice the book of Revelation. It is a book of prophecy. Meaning, things that were to happen after it was written. Things of Revelation are happening today. So, if homosexuality was not taking place back then (which I highly doubt that it was not), then the passages that speak against it in the Bible, were prophetically written, knowing that it would happen in the future.
That is not what I said at all. There was simply no concept of sexual orientation at the time. Remember, the New Testament was written during the dawn of the Roman Empire; a society that was very liberal about sex (at least for men). However, even in ancient Rome there was no concept of "gay" or "straight." Sex was sex regardless of the genders of the individuals involved, and relationships (at least those that people knew about) were only between men and women. The idea of romantic relationships between two men or two women was probably completely alien to St. Paul and the other authors of the New Testament, and so it isn't surprising that they had nothing to say about it.



Well, if I oppose something that doesn't agree with the word of God, then technically, I am fighting the Christian fight of faith.
LOL. So it's OK for you to oppose your god because you're fighting for your faith, but if anyone else does it, then they're despicable in God's eyes? Interesting concept. However, I doubt that Jesus was as egotistical as you seem to be.

As far as Sodom and Gomorrah.... They were destroyed because of violence AND sexual immorality. 1 Corinthians mentiones that male prostitues and homosexual offenders will not inherit the kingdom of God. If you feel that has no meaning, then why is mentioned in the Bible?
I already mentioned this verse in a previous post and explained that "homosexual offenders" is the crude English translation for a Latin phrase that meant "man who solicits a male prostitute." So yes, the Bible appears to condemn male prostitution (for both the buyer and seller), but that is a quite a distance from condemning all homosexuals.

I have friends with different sexual orientations.
Ah, the bigot's classic response... "I don't hate X, I have lots of friends who are X, I just don't want any X's to have the same rights that I do."

I don't agree with it, but I don't fear them as you claim I do.
Then why would you deny them the right to express their love via marriage? Why would you condemn their actions (if not the people themselves) when you aren't free of sin yourself?


Perhaps more Christians should actually start asking the question "What would Jesus do?" instead of just sticking the bumper sticker on their SUVs. I don't claim to know what Jesus would do in every situation, but one thing I'm pretty sure he wouldn't do is go around condemning homosexuals, as the issue was so unimportant he never once spoke about it.

[Epiphany]

You're the one who claims that the Bible is fairly straightforward in condemning homosexuals (and probably lots of other groups who lead different lives than you do). If you're willing to allow a more liberal interpretation for "pluck out thine eye" or "keep your sword in bloodshed," why not allow homosexuals the same leeway with biblical passages"Yes, I said the Bible condemns homosexuals, however, I am not standing outside with paper on a stick, protesting the rights of homosexuality.


However, even in ancient Rome there was no concept of "gay" or "straight." Sex was sex regardless of the genders of the individuals involved, and relationships (at least those that people knew about) were only between men and women. The idea of romantic relationships between two men or two women was probably completely alien to St. Paul and the other authors of the New Testament, and so it isn't surprising that they had nothing to say about it.Speculations have been made about homosexual Roman soldiers, but again, no one really knows because we weren't there. If it was written in the Bible, it must have a meaning.

LOL. So it's OK for you to oppose your god because you're fighting for your faith, but if anyone else does it, then they're despicable in God's eyes? Interesting concept. However, I doubt that Jesus was as egotistical as you seem to be.How am I opposing God when the faith I am fighting for is the faith in him?
LOL... yeah, I love it when people think that because you have faith in God, you have an ego. Being a Christian isn't easy. It's a battle ("Take up your cross daily", "fight the good fight of faith"). You have to be strong to be a Christian because everyone always wants to come against you. Actually, I think that back then some people would probably say that Jesus had an ego. They did persecute him for saying the he was the son of God.

Ah, the bigot's classic response... "I don't hate X, I have lots of friends who are X, I just don't want any X's to have the same rights that I do." Bigot? ahh, again with the labeling I see. I don't sit down with my friends and say, "You evil heathens, you are going to hell". So again, please show me where I personally condmned another for being homosexual. They know where I stand on the issue, and I know where they stand on the issue. If someone wants to practice homosexuality, that is their choice. Unless it is rape or abuse going on behind a bedroom door, it's not on my top priority list of religious concerns. What someone chooses sexually is between them, their partner, and God, not me. However, if I don't agree with something, and I make mention of it, I have the right to do so, just as anyone has the right to speak their mind. You don't know me, so please don't label me, thanks.


Perhaps more Christians should actually start asking the question "What would Jesus do?" instead of just sticking the bumper sticker on their SUVs. I don't claim to know what Jesus would do in every situation, but one thing I'm pretty sure he wouldn't do is go around condemning homosexuals, as the issue was so unimportant he never once spoke about it.Perhaps you should take your own advice. Maybe instead of worrying about what certain Christians are worrying about, you should worry about yourself instead. No one said they claimed to know what Jesus would have said in every single situation. However, if it's written in the Bible what not to do, then I am going to make every effort to avoid doing it. And I will use scriptural references to back up my points.

[IcE-MaN]

Your welcome Ephipany, i can already see its pointless to try to make this guy see any of our points.. i really dont think he believes in Jesus at all or he wouldnt be critizizing what he thinks the bible says and dont say
the way i see it is if a man who once was a athiest done research on the bible to see if it was true and never could find a part of it that wasnt true...then to me everyone should believe in it but my opinion in this topic wont help anything ...but after all it was you that asked a question pointed at "US" christians right?? well we answered them for you.Im not going to push my religion on you at all.but if yuo dont believe...then why the big fuss about what we believe?? you dont see us asking the paegans what they think and why what how when?? or for that matter any religion..... i hope one day you do turn your hear to accept Jesus as you saviour........what you think is what you think..thats you right to express and theres nothing wrong with that .....But you blaming the workds problems on christians is not likely at all ....but what ever you see one day when it happens if the world keeps on its goign to lead to anarchy....and its not gonna be because of christians...

[abbadabba]

Your welcome Ephipany, i can already see its pointless to try to make this guy see any of our points.. i really dont think he believes in Jesus at all or he wouldnt be critizizing what he thinks the bible says and dont say
You are correct that I am not a Christian. However, it seems to me that most atheists and agnostics are more tolerant than most Christian fundamentalists (at least those like Falwell, Robertson, Phelps, etc), and therefore do a better job following the teachings of Jesus than do the vast majority of Christians.

the way i see it is if a man who once was a athiest done research on the bible to see if it was true and never could find a part of it that wasnt true...then to me everyone should believe in it

The Bible is riddled with logical inconsistencies, historical errors, and scientific impossibilities. I'd be happy to cite a few if you'd like. If you can't find any parts of it that aren't true, you either aren't looking very hard or you are so biased that you'll never admit to any errors regardless of overwhelming evidence.


but my opinion in this topic wont help anything ...but after all it was you that asked a question pointed at "US" christians right?? well we answered them for you.Im not going to push my religion on you at all.but if yuo dont believe...then why the big fuss about what we believe??

Because homophobic beliefs HARM a group of people. I don't really care whether or not Christians believe in, say, infant baptism because it's a theological issue that doesn't affect me as a non-Christian. Homophobia, on the other hand, affects society very much in a negative way.



you dont see us asking the paegans what they think and why what how when?? or for that matter any religion..... i hope one day you do turn your hear to accept Jesus as you saviour........what you think is what you think..thats you right to express and theres nothing wrong with that .....But you blaming the workds problems on christians is not likely at all
I'm not blaming this on all Christians. In fact, Christianity has had a very positive impact on a number of great leaders (Mother Theresa, Martin Luther King). I'm talking specifically about groups of bigots like the Christian Coalition, the 700 Club, and some of the posters on this thread.

[Warrior]

I have to laugh. All of the forums I go to and have been to there is usually a section for Christians. Sadly 90+% of the threads are started by people who are not Christians. This makes me wonder: A) How secure are they in thier own beliefs, B) Why are non-Christians so obcessed with Christians? Why did the starter of this thread think that they should call Christians to the carpet for thier religious beliefs? Why should the beliefs of Christians offend non-Christians?
I wonder, why is there so much hatred towards Christians? I don't see these same people challengeing Jewish beliefs or Islamic beliefs. Why is this, non-Christians? Is it that you are programed to hate Christians and accept all others? You are a strange breed of people. You are anti-God as long as the word Christian is attached.

[abbadabba]

I have to laugh. All of the forums I go to and have been to there is usually a section for Christians. Sadly 90+% of the threads are started by people who are not Christians. This makes me wonder: A) How secure are they in thier own beliefs, B) Why are non-Christians so obcessed with Christians? Why did the starter of this thread think that they should call Christians to the carpet for thier religious beliefs? I'm not calling them on their religious beliefs. I'm calling them on the fact that they're discriminatory attitude toward homosexuals is bad for society.


Why should the beliefs of Christians offend non-Christians?
I wonder, why is there so much hatred towards Christians? I don't see these same people challengeing Jewish beliefs or Islamic beliefs. Why is this, non-Christians? Is it that you are programed to hate Christians and accept all others? You are a strange breed of people. You are anti-God as long as the word Christian is attached. If conservative Jewish beliefs or Islamic beliefs dominated my society (the United States), I'm sure I'd take issue with their homophobic positions more frequently. But they don't, so I don't think it's unfair to argue against homophobia from the Christian perspective.

[Warrior]

abbadabba: I do not mean to, but do not care if I do, insult you. You say this:
"If conservative Jewish beliefs or Islamic beliefs dominated my society (the United States), I'm sure I'd take issue with their homophobic positions more frequently. But they don't, so I don't think it's unfair to argue against homophobia from the Christian perspective."
And this shows me that you do not know who is controling your "society", ("your" being an abstact word here as it is not "your" society. Some say it is "our society").
Let me ask you this: What is YOUR obsession with homosexuallity? Bluntly, you say that Christians should not be concerned with men shoving thier dicks up the hairy shitholes of other men. Why not? It is our religious and moral beliefs that men do not ass fuck men; they do not suck peckers; they do not marry. These things in our eyes, and in the eyes of our God are WRONG. Should we approve them then we are saying to our GOD that we love the things and the acts of this world above Him.

"I'm not calling them on their religious beliefs. I'm calling them on the fact that they're discriminatory attitude toward homosexuals is bad for society." - More from you.
Show, don't discrimatorialy dictate, how opposition to homosexuality is "bad for society".
Every forum, on every site has an individual like you; One who has no origanal thought, but sees Christians as easy marks to pick on. WELL, HELLO, and ABRACADABRA - I am not your usual "Christian"! I am like the Jesus who took a whip to the money changers in the Temples: I am here to kick some ass! You want to curse or argue against MY GOD, and MY SAVIOR? Then find a way to come through me. Curse my God and I promise you HIS wrath! Pray to your Buddah or whomever you want to, but let me assure you, when you offend the only GOD, then you wreck havoc upon your own soul!
Be sweet and gentle unto your faggot brethern, but always remember the doubt and the guilt you feel does not come from your conscionce, but from your soul.

[Lilyrayne]

I am tired of getting picked on for being a Christian, especially when I don't pick on anyone else!! Why in the world do people assume that all Christians are alike, anyway? That goes for generations too, why do people assume that today's generation of Christians are anything like yesterday's generation of Christians? Yesterdays generation might have been homophobes, but I'm pretty sure that todays generation for the most part aren't, and it continues to improve. So where does anyone get off saying that Christians are homophobes, anyway? How about you let go of the stereotypes and actually sit down and get to know a decent Christian?

[Real American]

I hade to make this in a couple of posts. Apparently 16,678 characters is to long. Please read it all and soak it all in before replying. Thankyou


Hello there,

Let me start off by saying that I am not perfect. I do not view myself as better than anyone here or elsewhere. I will not condem you for your beliefs, and I would ask that you return the favor. Now, let's begin from the begining.

Heterosexuals act on their desires without being condemned by the Christian world, so why should homosexuals be any different?[quote] Premarital sex is condemed. Even to the older generations, some of the things that happen behind a closed door in a marriage is condemed. Please think of the whole picture before you make a statement like that.


[quote]I think one of the biggest problems with the views on Christians is that there are so many people out there that say they are Christian but have never sat down & thought anything out. Good point. To even further it, there are a lot of people that think they are Christains, and call themselves Christains, but miss it entirely.

Adultery is NOT the same thing as homosexual sex or heterosexual sex, and you know it. Adultery is immoral because it actually HARMS someone. Sex, whether gay or straight, harms no one.Sorry man, but all sins are the same. Murder bares the same as a lie in the eyes of God. So, when you want to ask why Christains condeme it, there you go. On a commical note, speaking of harming. I can only imagine the pain it would be to have something the size of a penis shoved inside of me. I mean, I had a lower GI, and that was very uncomfortable. Oh, and can you research for me what was the largest spread of AIDS when it surfaced?

with one very terrible new STD, which could have just as easily sprang up during any point in human history. Ahhh, but it didn't spring up in any other part in human history did it? That's like saying "what if". What if didn't happen, so it is of no use here.Every other STD is declining thanks to us sinful, devil-worshipping atheists who actually take the time to educate kids and third-world foreigners about sex...which you Christians tend to be opposed to. Who said anything about being opposed to learning about sex? When my son comes to me and asks me questions, I will explain it to him. I will also explain to him that though sex is a very enjoyable ordeal, it is better off with one woman that can share that bond with him.since you disagree with my opinion that freedom is a good thing.With freedom comes responsability. I support freedom. But I will never support homosexual marriage. That is a slap in the face of God's creation.

How arrogant of you to assume that you know what God is thinking. Doesn't the Bible also say to fix your OWN life before you go condemning others? Of course, people like yourself ignore any parts of the Bible that don't suit you. Is your own life so completely sinless that you consider yourself better than homosexuals?This is such an overused attack on real Christains. It's like the last thing you know to say when you have nothing else left to say. The part of the Bible you are refering to is a good point. However, we as Christains are also instructed to spread The Word of God. This includes everything in The Bible. You call her arrogent, wouldn't you be considered arrogent for assuming she is wrong in what The Bible tells us, therefore making it look like you know what God is thinking? The Bible is a Christains foundation. Many people before you, and many people after you will attempt to knock it off course. You will attempt to persuade people into believing it is a bunch of lies. For the most part, you will fail.

It is the church's job to teach love & mercy & the church members' job to learn these lessons. To be more specific, it is the Churchs job to teach The Word of God by using The Bible as it's lesson planner. If you go to a church that doesn't teach from The Bible, then you are going to the wrong church.

love everyone, no sin is unforgiveable, be a shining light to others and bring peace to all you can.The only unforgivable sin is to deny God.

did you hear him personally or you just going by what people told you?I'm sorry, do you believe that the Civil War happened? Were you there or did you just read about it?

This is a rant from the Real Live Preacher's blog. It pretty much summarizes my opinion of homophobic "Christians."[quote] Should I assume that if I think homosexuality to be wrong you think I am a homophobe? If that is what you think, you are wrong. That peace you coppied and pasted from where it was from, failed to mention that a true Christain tries as best he can to do what is right. No one is perfect. We will always fall down. Be it two pages or five thousand pages, homosexuality is wrong. I will also point out that the author of that bit failed to talk about what was mentioned in those two pages. Nice attepmt at killing The Bible once again, but still, a failure.

[quote]Part Three – ExegesisOk, so, apparently, when you read words that are clear and understandable reguarding this issue, you still want to deny the validity. That's fine, as I stated before, there will always be someone trying to discredit The Bible. Now, sence you quote The Bible, and use it in your arguments, am I safe to assume that you believe God created us? Oh wait, I want to do this using God's widom He gave me without reverting to The Bible. OK, so, somehow we as humans were created. Male species were given some form of a penis, and female species were given some form of a vagina and furthermore some species were given both male and female reproductive organs. Some were given the ability to reproduce soley by themselves. Following along so far? So what does everything living share in common with each other? Ahh yes, the ability to reproduce. Now, let's concentrate on the humans. How are the male and female reproductive oragans used? Certainly a male penis would not work with another male penis, nor a vagina work with another vagina. Now, with that in mind, what is one of the basic and raw desire shared between all species on this planet? Survival. Can two men reproduce? Can two women? If you want to discredit The Bible to say that homosexuality is ok, then I shall discredit you to show that science says homosexuality is wrong.

Those of us who condemn this vigorously are doing so because we care about the continued existence of our civilization - not out of so-called "homophobia." Homophobic is just a stupid psycho-babble term that doesn't describe any real human condition. Besides it is an ignorant word.
"Homo" in Greek means "same"
"Phobia" in Greek means "fear"
So, strictly rendered the word means "Fear of Similarity."
I don't believe that is what you mean when you use the word. Three letters: LOL.
Awsome.

[Real American]

Part 2

When is the last time you took the following passages into account? Was it not you that put down those that use parts of The Bible for their own use and threw out the rest? And you want to call me a hypocrite? Ok sir, I'll play along. You skipped some vital parts, I'll fill them in.
Numbers 31:1-20
1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people."
3 So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites and to carry out the LORD's vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel." 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.
7 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba-the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho. [1]
13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army-the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds-who returned from the battle.
15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
19 "All of you who have killed anyone or touched anyone who was killed must stay outside the camp seven days. On the third and seventh days you must purify yourselves and your captives. 20 Purify every garment as well as everything made of leather, goat hair or wood."


Hrmmm, what might be going on there? Is it a war? Shall I continue?



Ezekiel 9:1-11

Idolaters Killed

1 Then I heard him call out in a loud voice, "Bring the guards of the city here, each with a weapon in his hand." 2 And I saw six men coming from the direction of the upper gate, which faces north, each with a deadly weapon in his hand. With them was a man clothed in linen who had a writing kit at his side. They came in and stood beside the bronze altar.
3 Now the glory of the God of Israel went up from above the cherubim, where it had been, and moved to the threshold of the temple. Then the LORD called to the man clothed in linen who had the writing kit at his side 4 and said to him, "Go throughout the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the detestable things that are done in it."
5 As I listened, he said to the others, "Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. 6 Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary." So they began with the elders who were in front of the temple.
7 Then he said to them, "Defile the temple and fill the courts with the slain. Go!" So they went out and began killing throughout the city. 8 While they were killing and I was left alone, I fell facedown, crying out, "Ah, Sovereign LORD ! Are you going to destroy the entire remnant of Israel in this outpouring of your wrath on Jerusalem?"
9 He answered me, "The sin of the house of Israel and Judah is exceedingly great; the land is full of bloodshed and the city is full of injustice. They say, 'The LORD has forsaken the land; the LORD does not see.' 10 So I will not look on them with pity or spare them, but I will bring down on their own heads what they have done."
11 Then the man in linen with the writing kit at his side brought back word, saying, "I have done as you commanded."


Are you learning anything yet? More you ask?



Deuteronomy 20:1-20

1 When you go to war against your enemies and see horses and chariots and an army greater than yours, do not be afraid of them, because the LORD your God, who brought you up out of Egypt, will be with you. 2 When you are about to go into battle, the priest shall come forward and address the army. 3 He shall say: "Hear, O Israel, today you are going into battle against your enemies. Do not be fainthearted or afraid; do not be terrified or give way to panic before them. 4 For the LORD your God is the one who goes with you to fight for you against your enemies to give you victory."
5 The officers shall say to the army: "Has anyone built a new house and not dedicated it? Let him go home, or he may die in battle and someone else may dedicate it. 6 Has anyone planted a vineyard and not begun to enjoy it? Let him go home, or he may die in battle and someone else enjoy it. 7 Has anyone become pledged to a woman and not married her? Let him go home, or he may die in battle and someone else marry her." 8 Then the officers shall add, "Is any man afraid or fainthearted? Let him go home so that his brothers will not become disheartened too." 9 When the officers have finished speaking to the army, they shall appoint commanders over it.
10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.
16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy [1] them-the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites-as the LORD your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God.
19 When you lay siege to a city for a long time, fighting against it to capture it, do not destroy its trees by putting an ax to them, because you can eat their fruit. Do not cut them down. Are the trees of the field people, that you should besiege them? [2] 20 However, you may cut down trees that you know are not fruit trees and use them to build siege works until the city at war with you falls.


Hrmm, directions to the Israelites on how to deal with those that would take away and pervert what God has given them. Wow, that kinda fits with todays ordeals involving Israel and Pakistan. I will stop with those, but just to let you know, the rest of the parts you so effortlessly "burned" in your "fire" explained it all.



Christ never once condemned homosexuals, like you do. I never condemned a homosexual either. Just homosexuality.



How come your god hasn't rained fire and brimstone on San Francisco or Key West or Amsterdam anytime recently? 9/11?



Lastly, I make a reply to Warrior. Please pray before you post. Ask God for the wisom and clearity and love that he will give you. Ask him to guide you in your posts. Your use of foul language and hostility in this post is sad. This is the kind of attitude that non Christains see and hold against us.


In closing, I do not fear homosexuals. I do not deny the ability for one man to love another, nor one woman to love another. My close friend, whom I have known for years and years is a male that I love. I love him with all my heart, and would just as easily die for him as I would my son. The thing that I do not like is the act of homosexuality in itself. Just like lieing, cheating, killing, stealing, I do not like these. However, I will continue to show brotherly love and compassion for a human. I just refuse to accept the sin. Just as you are tired of us as Christains "forcing" our views and lifestyles on you, we are tired of homosexuals attempting to force their lifestyle on us. Sadly today marriage is no longer a bond between a man and woman before God. For a lot of people marriage is a "if I feel like doing it I'm going to do it" type thing. Will I vote to allow homosexuals the right to be married? No I wont. Do I think it matters in the end? No I don't. This is all predicted in The Bible that you so want to discredit. In the end, you will see.

[Epiphany]

All I have to say in response to Real American's post is: Amen to that!!!

[Warrior]

From Real American: "Lastly, I make a reply to Warrior. Please pray before you post. Ask God for the wisom and clearity and love that he will give you. Ask him to guide you in your posts. Your use of foul language and hostility in this post is sad. This is the kind of attitude that non Christains see and hold against us."

I appreciate your scorn. You said to me things that I am sure God Himself guided you in saying. But God also tells me that the end is near and to speak loudly and in the ways of the people, in thier tongues, for this is what they will understand. I am blessed, for God Himself guides my hand. I pray to God, not only before I "speek" but as I speek. And He tells me that you will know by these words why I am as I am. My name is "WARRIOR", I fight for God. I am the mercenary among His people. I am typing only what He says I should. Others who will not understand are at this moment lost, but you are not, you know who I am. I chill as I write. You know me. You know we have a reason "under Gods Heaven".

[abbadabba]

And this shows me that you do not know who is controling your "society", ("your" being an abstact word here as it is not "your" society. Some say it is "our society").

Oh does it now? I'd say that Christian thought dominates the United States a hell of a lot more than Judaism or Islam. Or are you also one of those anti-semitic conspiracy theorists in addition to being a homophobe?


Let me ask you this: What is YOUR obsession with homosexuallity? Bluntly, you say that Christians should not be concerned with men shoving thier dicks up the hairy shitholes of other men. Why not? It is our religious and moral beliefs that men do not ass fuck men; they do not suck peckers; they do not marry. These things in our eyes, and in the eyes of our God are WRONG. Should we approve them then we are saying to our GOD that we love the things and the acts of this world above Him.

What kind of Christian would use such filthy language?


Show, don't discrimatorialy dictate, how opposition to homosexuality is "bad for society".

In the same way that racism and sexism are bad for society. They harm minorities by denying them equal rights.



I am like the Jesus who took a whip to the money changers in the Temples: I am here to kick some ass!

Ah, I see. It's wrong for two men or two women to love each other, but it's OK for Christians to use filthy language and compare themselves to Jesus. Makes perfect sense to me.


That goes for generations too, why do people assume that today's generation of Christians are anything like yesterday's generation of Christians? Yesterdays generation might have been homophobes, but I'm pretty sure that todays generation for the most part aren't, and it continues to improve.

I apologize, Bree. I didn't mean to imply that ALL Christians were homophobes. However, while the situation may be improving, a quick look at this thread will clearly show that homophobia is alive and well among Christians.


On a commical note, speaking of harming. I can only imagine the pain it would be to have something the size of a penis shoved inside of me.

It's not "harm" if both participants are willing.


Oh, and can you research for me what was the largest spread of AIDS when it surfaced?

Again, that's not a good argument against every single homosexual relationship in the world. It is, however, a fairly good argument for monogamous relationships or at the very least for responsible sex.


With freedom comes responsability. I support freedom. But I will never support homosexual marriage. That is a slap in the face of God's creation.

Unless I am mistaken, we have separation of church and state in this country. Your bigoted opinion of what God wants is hardly relevant to the legal status of homosexual relationships. If our government wishes to deny gays the right to marry or to only grant them civil unions, then it should deny heterosexuals the right to marry or only grant them civil unions as well. I think a better solution is to allow anyone to marry who wants to, regardless of their sexual orientation. It doesn't mean your church has to allow it, just that the government does.


You call her arrogent, wouldn't you be considered arrogent for assuming she is wrong in what The Bible tells us, therefore making it look like you know what God is thinking?

No. I'm not a Christian or a theist, so I don't claim to know what God is thinking. I'm simply refuting points from a biblical perspective, since I did start this thread on a Christian forum.


I'm sorry, do you believe that the Civil War happened? Were you there or did you just read about it?

Umm, that's a bit different. There's plenty of tangible evidence that the Civil War happened. There's very little (no?) evidence that anything in the Bible is the word of God. However, that's a separate debate, and I have no problem with anyone who believes that it is as long as they don't use that belief to harm others.


Now, sence you quote The Bible, and use it in your arguments, am I safe to assume that you believe God created us?

No. I'm an atheist.


Male species were given some form of a penis, and female species were given some form of a vagina and furthermore some species were given both male and female reproductive organs. Some were given the ability to reproduce soley by themselves. Following along so far? So what does everything living share in common with each other? Ahh yes, the ability to reproduce. Now, let's concentrate on the humans. How are the male and female reproductive oragans used? Certainly a male penis would not work with another male penis, nor a vagina work with another vagina. Now, with that in mind, what is one of the basic and raw desire shared between all species on this planet? Survival. Can two men reproduce? Can two women? If you want to discredit The Bible to say that homosexuality is ok, then I shall discredit you to show that science says homosexuality is wrong.

LOL. Science doesn't make moral judgments. Just because two homosexuals can't reproduce with each other doesn't mean that science says it's "wrong." By that logic, would you also contend that a person who is born sterile should live a life of celibacy, since it would be "wrong" for them to ever have sex with another person? What do you mean by "wrong" anyway? Unnatural? That's debateable, but even if homosexuality were unnatural, so is wearing clothing. Do you consider that to be wrong?


I never condemned a homosexual either. Just homosexuality.

Christ never once condemned homosexuals OR homosexuality.


Just as you are tired of us as Christains "forcing" our views and lifestyles on you, we are tired of homosexuals attempting to force their lifestyle on us.

Most homosexuals just want to live their lives without being persecuted. If heterosexuals are allowed to go places in public together, homosexuals should be allowed the same freedom without being accused of "flaunting their sexuality" or "forcing their lifestyle" on other people.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Most homosexuals just want to live their lives without being persecuted. If heterosexuals are allowed to go places in public together, homosexuals should be allowed the same freedom without being accused of "flaunting their sexuality" or "forcing their lifestyle" on other people.
I have to say after reading this whole thread...I agree with you abbadabba. Yes, I am Christian (ooh I'm the worse kind...I'm Catholic ;) ) but I also follow Hare Krishna (but that's a different story) and I can tell you that whether or not it is wrong or it is a sin or you just don't agree with it....you can not condem people for being homosexuals. No one is asking you to turn around and marry a person of the same sex, but if they want to it is up to them...in the end we are all people, further more, in the end we aren't even these bodies, not even material nature. We are spirit soul and regardless of it all, I believe that what we are is more measured on how we love, regardless of whether or not we don't agree with their actions, it doesn't matter. You say that homosexuallity is against God's will, maybe it is, but I think that hate is more against God's will. This forum is a Hippie forum and in the end, shouldn't it be about peace and love, regardless of who you are, your nationality, your sexuality...because in the end we are all the same, spirit soul...and for now we are human and if we want to get on to that better place, we better start showing God that we can love one another while we're here before he'll let us go to his kingdom to do it.

Now I'm not saying that I'm perfect, no one is. That's why we are human. The point I'm trying to make, is instead of pointing fingers at other's, be aware and improve yourself...

I don't know if I'm totally off, if I am, ignore me...and if I'm not, don't blast me around too much ;)

[Real American]

abbadabba, your argument's against The Bible and why I believe the act of homosexuality is wrong are null and void now. I presented you with logical and factual statements. You attempted to take thing's out of context in The Bible. I pointed you out and yet you have no reply for this. You still try to twist science itself to support homosexuality. Don't be a coward and run away from your mistakes here. Stand up and put up a decent fight for your beliefs or stop posting all together.

You mention people that are unable to bare children. Do I think it is wrong for them to be married and have sex? No, marriage is something God created to allow a man and a woman to get closer than ever before. My mother in father for example; met each other, fell in love, married and were unable to have children. After years of testing and trying medicinal cures, they decided to let God deal with it. Not to long after that decision, my natural mother delivered me without the knowlege of my natural father. He wanted me aborted. My fathers sister in Tn worked for child social services. She gave my parents a call concerning a child that was not wanted and needed a good family. My parents got on there knees and prayed. 15 minutes later they called my aunt back and said they were on the road. 12 hours later, my new parents were in Memphis Tn and saw me for the first time. You want proof that God exists? Do I think them trying to have a child was wrong? Seriously, I know you are grabbing at whatever you can, but your attempt this time is faulty.

We were not created to have sex with the same sex. It is a perversion. Soon, after homosexual marriage is allowed, some person somewhere will want to marry their dog. Another will want to marry his sheep. Another his child. A brother and sister will want to be married and it will get worse. Why stop? Why limit these people?

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

abbadabba, your argument's against The Bible and why I believe the act of homosexuality is wrong are null and void now. I presented you with logical and factual statements. You attempted to take thing's out of context in The Bible. I pointed you out and yet you have no reply for this. You still try to twist science itself to support homosexuality. Don't be a coward and run away from your mistakes here. Stand up and put up a decent fight for your beliefs or stop posting all together.

You mention people that are unable to bare children. Do I think it is wrong for them to be married and have sex? No, marriage is something God created to allow a man and a woman to get closer than ever before. My mother in father for example; met each other, fell in love, married and were unable to have children. After years of testing and trying medicinal cures, they decided to let God deal with it. Not to long after that decision, my natural mother delivered me without the knowlege of my natural father. He wanted me aborted. My fathers sister in Tn worked for child social services. She gave my parents a call concerning a child that was not wanted and needed a good family. My parents got on there knees and prayed. 15 minutes later they called my aunt back and said they were on the road. 12 hours later, my new parents were in Memphis Tn and saw me for the first time. You want proof that God exists? Do I think them trying to have a child was wrong? Seriously, I know you are grabbing at whatever you can, but your attempt this time is faulty.

We were not created to have sex with the same sex. It is a perversion. Soon, after homosexual marriage is allowed, some person somewhere will want to marry their dog. Another will want to marry his sheep. Another his child. A brother and sister will want to be married and it will get worse. Why stop? Why limit these people?
I don't like to blast people, but don't you think you are being a little naive? A person marrying their dog and a person marrying another person of the same sex are two different things entirely. If two responsible people want to get married and raise a family, who are you to say they can't? It doesn't matter whether they are two men or two women. We are so afraid of what is different than what we are used to that we forget that regardless of what people do they are still people. Are you free from doing anything wrong? No. Neither am I. So, say these people are wrong, it's not up to you to tell them. It's none of your buissiness. No one is hurting anyone by getting married. I see only love, and I think love is an ideal we could all do a little more with. Put yourself in a homosexual person's shoes. Here you have in your hands something you cannot control and something that is hated by society. So, you can run from what you really are and be miserable, or you can go out and find someone to love. Say you do find someone to love, and you two want to raise a child. Any respectable woman can tell you its her right to want to raise a child, and so many orphaned children need a family. So, live from house to house, or have the child live with two people who love them. Now, you both want to provide for the child, so you want a legal union to have a household bank account, but you are denied because you are a homosexual. That's like pushing ourselves back to when slaves were allowed to be married religiously but not legally...it's not any different. So, we have all this freedom, but still you are denied because you are different...

...so before you go off about how being a homosexual is wrong and perverted...think about how it may be to be one... we are all brainwashed to want the samethings: a home, a family, a tele, ect. and regardless of what you believe or who you love....you are still a person who wants these things and shouldn't be denied them because you are different...

...and for some reason I just can't let myself believe that God would mean to make people, some who might love him even more than some heterosexuals, suffer because they are different. I don't think I could believe this. And for some reason it were, God forgives them and loves them regardless...so why can't we. We only want to look for the bad things all the time...why can't we ever look for the good...?

[mynameiskc]

i say let them get married, and i'm a christian. we don't live in a theocracy. and the humanist in me says that everyone should be able to have love and companionship, this is a pretty hard life without it. if it's with a person of the same sex, then so be it. i don't completely trust the bible anyway. i trust god, i trust christ's message. words written on paper by people striving to control one another is entirely another matter.

[abbadabba]

abbadabba, your argument's against The Bible and why I believe the act of homosexuality is wrong are null and void now. I presented you with logical and factual statements. You attempted to take thing's out of context in The Bible. I pointed you out and yet you have no reply for this. You still try to twist science itself to support homosexuality. Don't be a coward and run away from your mistakes here. Stand up and put up a decent fight for your beliefs or stop posting all together.LOL. How did I try to "twist science itself"? So far, you're the only one in this thread who has mentioned biology, and it was to make an ignorant bigoted argument. Why don't YOU answer my argument? How does science make moral judgments? It doesn't. The whole argument that "homosexuality is unnatural" isn't just incorrect, it's stupid. Even if it was unnatural, so what? How does that make it wrong? Wearing clothes isn't natural either.

You mention people that are unable to bare children. Do I think it is wrong for them to be married and have sex? No, marriage is something God created to allow a man and a woman to get closer than ever before. The gospel according to YOU. Why don't you stop trying to force your beliefs on the rest of society by preventing two loving people from marrying each other? If marriage is about people getting close to one another, and not about sex, then why can't you distinguish same-sex marriage from homosexual sex? Is it that you think that NO ONE who sins should be allowed to get married? Marriage would be quite uncommon indeed if that were the case.

My mother in father for example; met each other, fell in love, married and were unable to have children. After years of testing and trying medicinal cures, they decided to let God deal with it. Not to long after that decision, my natural mother delivered me without the knowlege of my natural father. He wanted me aborted. My fathers sister in Tn worked for child social services. She gave my parents a call concerning a child that was not wanted and needed a good family. My parents got on there knees and prayed. 15 minutes later they called my aunt back and said they were on the road. 12 hours later, my new parents were in Memphis Tn and saw me for the first time. You want proof that God exists? Do I think them trying to have a child was wrong? Seriously, I know you are grabbing at whatever you can, but your attempt this time is faulty.It is you who is trying to grab at whatever you can. This entire paragraph is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand: homophobia and Christianity.

We were not created to have sex with the same sex. It is a perversion. Soon, after homosexual marriage is allowed, some person somewhere will want to marry their dog. Another will want to marry his sheep. Another his child. A brother and sister will want to be married and it will get worse. Why stop? Why limit these people?
Ah, I see you're a Santorum Republican. How charming. But earlier, you said that the basis for marriage isn't sex, so what does "being created to have sex with the same sex" have to do with it? And to answer your question: A dog, a sheep, and a child are unable to consent to marriage. Two homosexual adults ARE able to consent to marriage.

[Warrior]

I love liberals. They try so hard to be so accepting of....of,..well,...of,uhhhhmm, I know - everything that is vile and base or contrary to the wishes of God. But there are some things that they wont accept and will fight tooth and nail to destroy. These things include, but are not limited to, Christianity, free thought, guns, conservatives, free speach, (unless it is them speeking),..

Unfortunately anyone who disagrees with a liberal gets a title. Such as here. If you are a Christian who opposes homosexuality,you are automatically a "homophobe". By being disgusted by the thought of homosexuality, we are "homophobes". Curiously, is there a title for homosexuals that are disgusted by normal sex? What kind of "phobe" are they? How about homos who hate Christians who are "homophobes"? Surely there is some word that describes these people. I can think of a couple, but I doubt my post would make it onto the board. Just as two politically incorrect messages have already been deleted.

[Real American]

And yet you still ignore it. Here is what I am tired of, you admit to not being a Christain. Yet you continue to attempt to use God in your arguments. You have no relationship with him, therefore, quit using him in your arguments. Now, stop beating around the bush and tell me why you decided it would be ok for you to pull out bits and pieces of The Bible and the "crumble" up the rest of the scripture and throw it in the "fire"? Come on, all this talk, and 2 posts later and you still haven't answered. In one postI covered everything from the begining of this thread. Quit playing games here.

Oh, as soon as you stop trying to force homosexual marriage on me and my country I'll stop posting here to show you how it is wrong. Besides, you are the one that started this thread were you not? Were you hoping to gain support from a group of pot smoking liberals? In reality, your little "tantrum" has only strengthened my resolve and my faith.

i say let them get married, and i'm a christian. we don't live in a theocracy. and the humanist in me says that everyone should be able to have love and companionship, this is a pretty hard life without it. if it's with a person of the same sex, then so be it. i don't completely trust the bible anyway. i trust god, i trust christ's message. words written on paper by people striving to control one another is entirely another matter. This person here just prooved my point. A lot of people think they are Christains. You keep telling yourself that. In your journy with The Lord, have you ever prayed and asked for the Holy Spirit to guid you and show you what is correct? Have you ever asked for knowlege concerning The Bible? For you to say you don't trust The Bible just shows your lack of understanding and faith.

Oh yes, and one last thing to abba. Reply to what I have asked for, and I'll continue on and reply to all of your questions. Until you do that, everything you say is just a last gasp of air before you drown in your self pitty and perverted dreams.

[abbadabba]

I'll reply to Real American's posts because he appears to simply be misguided. I will not, however, continue to reply to Warrior's posts because he is a complete idiot and beyond hope. Not only is he a homophobe, but he is an anti-semite. He is clearly so blinded by hate that no amount of reason can get him to change his mind. To quote him from another thread:

Yes, let us be super-sensitive to the poor jewish people and thier so-called holocaust. Let us not look at both sides of the equation.What a VERY tolerant individual you are...

Now then, on to the main event:

And yet you still ignore it. Here is what I am tired of, you admit to not being a Christain. Yet you continue to attempt to use God in your arguments. You have no relationship with him, therefore, quit using him in your arguments. I posted this topic on a Christian forum. If I expect any response other than "duhh...my god says fags=bad lol!" then I'd better cite scripture. Wouldn't you agree? I'd be happy to argue the point from a secular perspective, but I doubt many Christians would play along. If you are, I'd be glad to.


Now, stop beating around the bush and tell me why you decided it would be ok for you to pull out bits and pieces of The Bible and the "crumble" up the rest of the scripture and throw it in the "fire"? Come on, all this talk, and 2 posts later and you still haven't answered. In one postI covered everything from the begining of this thread. Quit playing games here.
Pulling bits and pieces of the Bible is exactly what Christian homophobes do. If you truly believe that the Bible is the word of God - EVERY SENTENCE OF IT - then it shouldn't matter whether or not I present you with bits of it. You'd better be willing to do everything the Bible tells you to.


Oh, as soon as you stop trying to force homosexual marriage on me and my country I'll stop posting here to show you how it is wrong.
Absolutely not. I will continue to fight for civil rights.

This person here just prooved my point. A lot of people think they are Christains. You keep telling yourself that. In your journy with The Lord, have you ever prayed and asked for the Holy Spirit to guid you and show you what is correct? Have you ever asked for knowlege concerning The Bible? For you to say you don't trust The Bible just shows your lack of understanding and faith.
Yawn. An intolerant Christian criticizing a more intelligent Christian for actually questioning her own beliefs. Did you ever stop and think that maybe it's YOU who lacks understanding and faith? Who are you to claim that you know everything that your god meant in the Bible?

Oh yes, and one last thing to abba. Reply to what I have asked for, and I'll continue on and reply to all of your questions. Until you do that, everything you say is just a last gasp of air before you drown in your self pitty and perverted dreams.You didn't respond to a single point I made in my previous post.

[Epiphany]

Unfortunately anyone who disagrees with a liberal gets a title. Such as here. If you are a Christian who opposes homosexuality,you are automatically a "homophobe". By being disgusted by the thought of homosexuality, we are "homophobes". Curiously, is there a title for homosexuals that are disgusted by normal sex? What kind of "phobe" are they? How about homos who hate Christians who are "homophobes"? Surely there is some word that describes these people. I can think of a couple, but I doubt my post would make it onto the board. Just as two politically incorrect messages have already been deleted.

Exactly... if you are Christian, and you oppose something because there is mention of it being against God's will in the Bible, automatically, you are condemned as being close minded. What is amusing is that, the same people who are calling you close minded, are not being open minded to your faith, so it's the pot calling the kettle black.

[LuciferSam]

That's kinda silly. That would make everybody close-minded one way or another. That's too much relativism even for me...

[Epiphany]

That's the point... everyone is close minded in some way or another. It's human nature.

[abbadabba]

That's the point... everyone is close minded in some way or another. It's human nature.
Sorry, that is not an acceptable excuse. I don't see crowds of homosexuals on the streets protesting Christian marriage. If that ever happens, I'll be the first to support your right to marry.

[Kandahar]

As a Christian, I'd just like to say that people like Epiphany, Warrior, and Real American disgust me and do NOT represent the vast majority of Christians. They are a very vocal minority that give us all a bad name. I don't know how God feels about homosexuality, but two things I do know: 1) Jesus said not to try to take the speck out of your neighbor's eye when you have a log in your own. 2) Marriage, as it is currently defined by our legal system, is a civil right. There's no logical reason to deny gays the right to marry other than prejudice, pure and simple.Abbadabba, I hope you'll keep an open mind and not scorn all Christians just because of a few Bible-beating rednecks from the South.

[Epiphany]

Actually, what's NOT accpetable is you judging everyone. You assume that since I am a Christian, I must be homophobic. So, do you assume that if all my friends jumped off a bridge, I would as well?


No, everyone being close minded to some degree isn't an excuse. It's a fact. You want to talk about everyone being close minded, when you are close minded to Christians opposing something that they feel is wrong because that is what their faith in Christ teaches them. So, us Christians are being close minded to something we have faith in, and you are being close minded to our faith. In the end, we are all being close minded in some way, shape, or form. That is how human nature works. No one is open minded to every single thing in this world.

As I said, I personally, am not out protesting homosexual marriages. There are way too many other causes that I would like to contribute my time to rather than worrying about two people of the same sex getting married.

[maryjaneguitargurl]

theres homophobes in any relegion.


peace
chickens

[LuciferSam]

Heh, so you're criticizing someone for "judging everyone," specifically, judging people who in turn judge people by sexuality.

Your model of closed-mindless is rather convoluted, but anyway, even within that model, some people can be more close-minded than others. I don't know if it's exactly "close-minded" to not unquestionably accept dogma, it doesn't hurt to question doctrine every now and then. I think simply swallowing everything your religion tells you without critically thinking about it is being particularly closed-minded.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Yes, I must agree that I don't think you could except every single thing they tell you anyway...some of it, when all layed out, is quite hypocritical...it contradicts itself terribly sometimes...in any religion, not just Christianity...

[Epiphany]

Heh, so you're criticizing someone for "judging everyone," specifically, judging people who in turn judge people by sexuality.Your model of closed-mindless is rather convoluted, but anyway, even within that model, some people can be more close-minded than others. I don't know if it's exactly "close-minded" to not unquestionably accept dogma, it doesn't hurt to question doctrine every now and then.
Actually, I am criticizing him for assuming that because a group of people who have faith appear this way, the whole bunch of them must. Just as the friends jumping off a bridge example I used. Just because I am a Christian, doesn't mean that I share the exact same opinions as every other Christian in the world, which is the way he is putting it. He chose to say, "Why are Christians such homophobes".... He should have said, "Why are SOME Christians such homophobes". But he is putting everyone in the same category, assuming that all us Christians share one brain and think the same exact thoughts.
If he was making an assumption about anything else, my statement would be the same. You cannot assume that every person is the same way. It has nothing to do with him accepting faith, it's him being close minded about not respecting the fact that I have the freedom to believe in whatever I choose to believe in. I hate when people always try to to throw out close mindedness when one sticks to something they believe in. I have issues where I am open to both sides, and other issues where I only choose one side. Find me someone who is open to both sides of a topic on EVERY single topic in this entire world.




I think simply swallowing everything your religion tells you without critically thinking about it is being particularly closed-minded.
Which just proves my point. How is one to know how I feel about a situation without asking me specifically? If I want to know what you think, do I ask your group of friends? No, I ask you as an individual. I don't assume that your entire group shares the same opinion on everything, which is what he was doing when he made the first post.

I don't know anyone who, "swallows", everything that their religions tells them. Again, because not all people think the same thing!

[Jozak]

---First off to the original poster, stop making generalizations.

---Secondly, I can tell you a few things about myself, a Christian.

---I am not a hippy. I have very "liberal" views socially but economically I am very "conservative."
Social Liberal + Economic conservaitve= Libertarian (for the most part)

---I'm Catholic, although my church is against it, I don't have a problem one bit with homosexuals or homosexuality.

---I support civil unions or gay marriges recognized by the state, becasue it is obviously separate (or supposed to be) but the problem is evangelical Protestants and some Catholics try to push their morals into legislation. (I am against abortion for legal reasons, not moral/religious ones, for example).

---I don't think gays are going to hell.


---Conclusion: Gay civil unions/marriges should be allowed, if 2 gay people want to get married, what business is it of mine anyway?

[LuciferSam]

Which just proves my point. How is one to know how I feel about a situation without asking me specifically? If I want to know what you think, do I ask your group of friends? No, I ask you as an individual. I don't assume that your entire group shares the same opinion on everything, which is what he was doing when he made the first post.

I don't know anyone who, "swallows", everything that their religions tells them. Again, because not all people think the same thing!
Point taken. I have known some people that do absorb everything their religion tells them though, I suppose that influences my view on religious people as a whole.

[Dizzy Man]

Well, I was about to point out that Christians are not homophobic, but looks like several beaten me to it.

it does specifically say in the Bible that being Gay is wrong.Yeah, right next to the part that says having blue eyes is wrong!

[plumb]

Jesus never once mentioned homosexuality?
this is a pretty unconvincing point. jesus also never mentioned child molestation. but no one would try to argue that pedophelia was ok. nor would they say that a pedophile was born that way. nor would anyone say that a person who wants to have sex with little kids shouldn't refrain themselves from acting out on that attraction. but anyway, to each his own.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

this is a pretty unconvincing point. jesus also never mentioned child molestation. but no one would try to argue that pedophelia was ok. nor would they say that a pedophile was born that way. nor would anyone say that a person who wants to have sex with little kids shouldn't refrain themselves from acting out on that attraction. but anyway, to each his own.
Hmmm...a little child in most cases doesn't have a choice, cannot consent. Two grown people who have chosen to have sex together can...that is about as comparable as the man who wanted to marry his sheep

[abbadabba]

this is a pretty unconvincing point. jesus also never mentioned child molestation. but no one would try to argue that pedophelia was ok. nor would they say that a pedophile was born that way. nor would anyone say that a person who wants to have sex with little kids shouldn't refrain themselves from acting out on that attraction. but anyway, to each his own.
Jesus did mention child molestation, in that he often spoke out against harming others (as child molestation does). Homosexuality harms no one, and therefore does not fall under that category. Jesus talked about all of the "big" sins at some point in his life, but homosexuality was obviously so unimportant to him that he never once mentioned it.

[dasiy]

[QUOTE=Aberfoyle]I believe that in the chapter Levictus something along the lines of "Do not lie in bed with a man as you would a woman" is written.[QUOTE]
It does. And Levictus also is the book that says we should not have pericings and tattoes,but OH FREKIN' WELL!

[sweatininthesouth]

Jesus talked about all of the "big" sins at some point in his life, but homosexuality was obviously so unimportant to him that he never once mentioned it.
Maybe he didn't mention homosexuality because he himself was gay.... ever consider that? Look at him, he hung around a bunch of men, never got married, no mention of a girlfriend..... I think that would be totally awesome if Jesus was gay!

[abbadabba]

Maybe he didn't mention homosexuality because he himself was gay.... ever consider that? Look at him, he hung around a bunch of men, never got married, no mention of a girlfriend..... I think that would be totally awesome if Jesus was gay!
I never really thought about it like that before, but I suppose it is possible. Now that I think about it you might be right, there are some clues that he might've been gay...

[Jozak]

Maybe he didn't mention homosexuality because he himself was gay.... ever consider that? Look at him, he hung around a bunch of men, never got married, no mention of a girlfriend..... I think that would be totally awesome if Jesus was gay!
There is no evidence to support that. The only relationship Christ might have had was with Mary Magdalene, but there isn't any evidence to support that either. In any event, even if he did have a lover, it wouldn't change anything, if you are a Christian you beleive Christ was both 100% man and god, remember, he was a man too.

[abbadabba]

There is no evidence to support that. The only relationship Christ might have had was with Mary Magdalene, but there isn't any evidence to support that either.
Then why did you cite it as an example?

In any event, even if he did have a lover, it wouldn't change anything, if you are a Christian you beleive Christ was both 100% man and god, remember, he was a man too.
Huh? I don't understand what you're trying to say. Who said it would "change anything" if he did?

[HuckFinn]

Abbadabba,


Your futile attempt at biblical exegesis is pitiful. Check out:

http://www.cornerstonemag.com/pages/show_page.asp?151

As for homosexuality being "harmless," see:

http://www.leaderu.com/stonewall/issues/tomschmidt.html

[Jozak]

Then why did you cite it as an example?
It's just pure speculation, and I think it would be more likely than Christ being gay.


Huh? I don't understand what you're trying to say. Who said it would "change anything" if he did?
No one did, but no doubt some people would question weather he was truly god or not if he had a lover.

[Rayn]

I'm a "Christian"...Well, I dunno...I have Christian Beliefs, but don't think when asked by a "Christian" they would call me a "Christian"...But I'm not a homophobe...And apparently, a lot of Methodists aren't either...Hmmm ::shrug::

[Warrior]

Maybe he didn't mention homosexuality because he himself was gay.... ever consider that? Look at him, he hung around a bunch of men, never got married, no mention of a girlfriend..... I think that would be totally awesome if Jesus was gay!
It would be an insult to any person who was capable of simple reason to even momentarially consider Jesus as gay. His father condemned it, and He was a follower of His father.

How did you all get on Jesus as gay anyway, when the topic is about Christian hatred of homosexuality? Which, BTW, is bull since there exist many "churches" that are homosexual approving as well as many that are homosexual "Christian churches". Why, I ask again, does no one condemn the jewish religion or the muslams or any of the other religions that are against homosexuality? How has Christian bashing become such a favorit past time among people?

[abbadabba]

It would be an insult to any person who was capable of simple reason to even momentarially consider Jesus as gay. His father condemned it, and He was a follower of His father.
If the Christian God exists, I don't think it would approve much of your use of filthy language, blatant anti-semitism, and graphic descriptions of homosexual sex acts either...but that doesn't stop you from doing it.


How did you all get on Jesus as gay anyway, when the topic is about Christian hatred of homosexuality?

Someone merely mentioned it as a theory and we were just considering whether or not it was plausible. I think it is. That's not to say that he definitely was gay, just that it isn't an implausible theory.


Which, BTW, is bull since there exist many "churches" that are homosexual approving as well as many that are homosexual "Christian churches".

Why do you have the word churches in quotation marks? Do you view them as something less valid than your own church? What church do you attend that approves of your descriptions of "shoving dicks in hairy shitholes" or your denial of the Holocaust?


Why, I ask again, does no one condemn the jewish religion or the muslams or any of the other religions that are against homosexuality? How has Christian bashing become such a favorit past time among people?
Most of the people that visit this board are Americans or Europeans, and therefore they're faced with more Christian homophobia on a daily basis than Jewish or Muslim homophobia. If I lived in Israel or Saudi Arabia, I'd probably be more likely to take issue with that.

[Warrior]

If the Christian God exists, I don't think it would approve much of your use of filthy language, blatant anti-semitism, and graphic descriptions of homosexual sex acts either...but that doesn't stop you from doing it.


Someone merely mentioned it as a theory and we were just considering whether or not it was plausible. I think it is. That's not to say that he definitely was gay, just that it isn't an implausible theory.


Why do you have the word churches in quotation marks? Do you view them as something less valid than your own church? What church do you attend that approves of your descriptions of "shoving dicks in hairy shitholes" or your denial of the Holocaust?


Most of the people that visit this board are Americans or Europeans, and therefore they're faced with more Christian homophobia on a daily basis than Jewish or Muslim homophobia. If I lived in Israel or Saudi Arabia, I'd probably be more likely to take issue with that.
You "dont think", and that is one of the biggest problems with your posts. You "dont think" before you make them. Your only interest is winning an unwinable argument. And this shows in your 2nd statement in regards to Jesus being gay. I showed you by simple common sense that it is rediculous to even assume such a thing and you still want to argue that Jesus might be gay.

I use the word churches in " " because they abviously accept the teachings of man above God, therefore I think thier "churches" are blasphemies and not religions of God.

My language? If it is wrong then God and I will settle that score when it is to be settled. You and I wont settle it; me and God will. Besides this is a topic concerning Christians in general, not me as a Christian. Swallow that one, deep throat.

[abbadabba]

You "dont think", and that is one of the biggest problems with your posts. You "dont think" before you make them. Your only interest is winning an unwinable argument. And this shows in your 2nd statement in regards to Jesus being gay. I showed you by simple common sense that it is rediculous to even assume such a thing and you still want to argue that Jesus might be gay.
You showed nothing of the kind. All you did was say that it was "disrespectful." I never said there was ironclad evidence that Jesus was gay; I just said that it was a possibility especially when you examine his life.



My language? If it is wrong then God and I will settle that score when it is to be settled. You and I wont settle it; me and God will. Besides this is a topic concerning Christians in general, not me as a Christian. Swallow that one, deep throat.
Then why can't you accept that God will settle the score with homosexuals if there's one that needs to be settled? Why do you insist on persecuting them? What makes their sins any worse than yours?

[hobhob]

Just because there is something written in the bible it does not mean it is certainly right,the people who wrote the bible were not God,they had there own opinions and in those days it was considered to be a huge sin.

[abbadabba]

Just because there is something written in the bible it does not mean it is certainly right,the people who wrote the bible were not God,they had there own opinions and in those days it was considered to be a huge sin.
Agreed. Even if the Christian God actually spoke to them and they didn't mean to put their own opinions into the Bible, there's a very good chance that they'd be unable to understand what he meant and so they'd misinterpret him.

[Warrior]

"Why are Christians such homophobes?" is the title of this thread. I ask, "Why are non-Christians and gays such Christianphobes?

abbadabbado: You showed nothing of the kind. All you did was say that it was "disrespectful." I never said there was ironclad evidence that Jesus was gay; I just said that it was a possibility especially when you examine his life.Pay attention to my posts and the meaning of same. Jesus IS the son of GOD. He loves and respects GODS word. GODS Word is against homosexuality! Sorry, person. I will not argue against God who created me and His Son who gave me to him. So, (one more for me and God to settle), kiss my ass, fag boy. You are not qualified to talk, teach, or preach against my God or my Savior. ONLY Christians know God as I do; Cowards know Him as you do know Him not. As I have said before, I am WARRIOR. My fight is for God. If you were here before me this very moment, I would punk slap you. Your desire isn't to question Christians about why they are agaisnt queer ways, your desire is to cause hatred towards Chritians. You are a self-serving piece of trash. You hate Jesus because He hates your ways. Leave this topic alone. Go peacefully among your brethern and suffer the consequences.

From my partner: Had God wanted homosexuals on this planet He would have created ONLY one sex. Here is one more for me and God to settle: Fuck you stupid.

[abbadabba]

"Why are Christians such homophobes?" is the title of this thread. I ask, "Why are non-Christians and gays such Christianphobes?As I've said before, I have nothing against Christianity in general. I do have a problem with the particular brand of Christianity practiced by Jerry Falwell, Fred Phelps, and you.

abbadabbado: Pay attention to my posts and the meaning of same. Jesus IS the son of GOD. He loves and respects GODS word. GODS Word is against homosexuality! Sorry, person. I will not argue against God who created me and His Son who gave me to him.You didn't answer my question. If you claim that you'll settle your score with God later on and you don't want to be bothered about using filthy language, denying the holocaust, and comparing yourself to Jesus, why won't you allow homosexuals that same freedom?

So, (one more for me and God to settle), kiss my ass, fag boy. I never said I was gay.


You are not qualified to talk, teach, or preach against my God or my Savior. ONLY Christians know God as I do; Cowards know Him as you do know Him not.
You are such a hypocrite. I am very glad that most Christians aren't as stupid as you. I'll ask you once more: What makes a homosexual's sins worse than your sins?


As I have said before, I am WARRIOR. My fight is for God. If you were here before me this very moment, I would punk slap you. Your desire isn't to question Christians about why they are agaisnt queer ways, your desire is to cause hatred towards Chritians.Your particular brand of Christianity DESERVES the hatred it receives. Now go don your white sheet and burn some crosses, you piece of Alabama white trash.

You are a self-serving piece of trash. You hate Jesus because He hates your ways. Leave this topic alone. Go peacefully among your brethern and suffer the consequences. Again, I never said I was gay. You just assumed that.


From my partner: Had God wanted homosexuals on this planet He would have created ONLY one sex. By that logic, if God wanted nazis like yourself on this planet, he would've just tattooed the swastika to your forehead himself.

[Warrior]

Most of the people that visit this board are Americans or Europeans, and therefore they're faced with more Christian homophobia on a daily basis than Jewish or Muslim homophobia. If I lived in Israel or Saudi Arabia, I'd probably be more likely to take issue with that.
True, as you say Jew and Muslim "homophobia" are not on a daily baisis addressed. However through the jewish media it has become acceptable to be pro-fag. They are not pro-gay, but they do like Christians to be, because it fullfills thier agenda to destroy Christians. I would not bring this up except that the jew hates Jesus and will do all that is required to turn man against Him. Think about it. If you had control of mind controling things such as the media (newspapers, television, etc.), whose agenda would you promote?

[abbadabba]

True, as you say Jew and Muslim "homophobia" are not on a daily baisis addressed. However through the jewish media it has become acceptable to be pro-fag. They are not pro-gay, but they do like Christians to be, because it fullfills thier agenda to destroy Christians. I would not bring this up except that the jew hates Jesus and will do all that is required to turn man against Him. Think about it. If you had control of mind controling things such as the media (newspapers, television, etc.), whose agenda would you promote?You are such a dumbass. It's really sad that people like you still exist in this day and age. When I started this thread, I expected to hear from some homophobes and mainstream-conservative Christians...I guess I just didn't expect anyone to be so openly prejudiced against anyone a little different from them.

I don't know why I ever broke my promise to myself not to fuel the fire of your hatred. Sooner or later your hate for everyone who isn't a heterosexual (white?) Protestant Christian will consume you.

I'm done talking to you. Responses from non-nazi-morons are still welcomed and encouraged.

[Epiphany]

True, as you say Jew and Muslim "homophobia" are not on a daily baisis addressed. However through the jewish media it has become acceptable to be pro-fag. They are not pro-gay, but they do like Christians to be, because it fullfills thier agenda to destroy Christians. I would not bring this up except that the jew hates Jesus and will do all that is required to turn man against Him. Think about it. If you had control of mind controling things such as the media (newspapers, television, etc.), whose agenda would you promote?
I wouldn't exactly say that the Jewish people nowadays hate Jesus, rather that they don't believe he is the Messiah. (except for Messianic Jews) It does say that during the end times, when Jesus returns to the Mount of olives, that the Jewish people will mourn in severe repentence. ("They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son" (Zechariah 12:10) And their prayers will not be forsaken. ( "On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity") (Zechariah 13:1)

As far as abbadabba's quote about some Christian groups, I will agree with that. Not every person claiming to be a Christian really is. There are many false prophets in this world.

[Warrior]

You are such a dumbass. It's really sad that people like you still exist in this day and age. When I started this thread, I expected to hear from some homophobes and mainstream-conservative Christians...I guess I just didn't expect anyone to be so openly prejudiced against anyone a little different from them.

I don't know why I ever broke my promise to myself not to fuel the fire of your hatred. Sooner or later your hate for everyone who isn't a heterosexual (white?) Protestant Christian will consume you.

I'm done talking to you. Responses from non-nazi-morons are still welcomed and encouraged.
Guess what? You "expected to hear from some homophobes and mainstream-conservative Christians...". You got that. They all tried to agree with you. They are what is known as Judea-Christians. Then you got a drop extra. You got a God loving, Bible reading, Fuck You warrior for God named Warrior to chastise you and bring you down below the rocks from which you crawled. Every Christian who looks at this thread KNOWS who is here for God and Christianity. And they know who is here to destroy the words of God and the works of Jesus. Go on and live in your ways of the jew who guides you, suffer in hell with them as you have made your choice. Take down as many as you can. But there are those who will get on thier knees and God will send them Angels and they will be guided from you. You in yourself are a sin.
I think it was you who ask in an earlier post where was the bloody sword that that person carried for God. It is here. It is in the words that are said in defense of God and in offense of those against Him. I am that sword. Through my words, through my deeds, I will always be that sword. I told that person that they knew who I am, now they can not deny it. I am the sword. I speek in your tongue: I say, "Fuck you".

"Responses from non-nazi-morons are still welcomed and encouraged."
Only "morons" will you reply too? Only if they are not "nazi". Yes you are qualified for that debate. Barely.

[Warrior]

"I wouldn't exactly say that the Jewish people nowadays hate Jesus, rather that they don't believe he is the Messiah."

Don't assume nothing. Jews proclaim in thier evil Talmud that Jesus is burning in a sea of excrement (shit). They say that the Virgin Mary was a harlot, a whore. Educate yourself before you pick a side.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Please do not renounce anyone's religion. I'm sure most who cry out the Lord's name with pure love will find him, regardless of what they call him or the customs in which they choose to worship. In the end, it boils down to the same thing, one God. Half the time we forget it because we are caught up in the specifics of our individual ways to worship Him, you'd be surprised to find that the main point of the majority of religions is the same...No one is purly wrong or right...the only one who knows is the Lord...

...so please do not put someone down for their religion...all that does is make you hateful...and in the end not following what you preach...

::end of transmission::

[Sunburst]

I believe that in the chapter Levictus something along the lines of "Do not lie in bed with a man as you would a woman" is written. So I suppose this is the root.
.


Levictus also says to stone your son to death if he disobeys you, that a week after a woman's menstrual cycle, everything she touches is dirty. Levictus says a lot of things, I don't even bother with it, because they're kkind of WAY OVER THE EDGE.



Yeah, two people who love eachother gettign married is wrong, but it's okay to marrry for money, a 20-year-old skank marrying an 80-year-old billlionaire is fine, 100 000 drunks in Vegas is just peachy-keen:D I think the bible says it was wrong because back then they thought it was just a lust. It's not lust. I have a partner right now (who is female), and I don't want to go "below the waist" at least until we're married. Which we will be. It's far from lust, it's two people who love each other. They used to ban interracial marriages as well. I think the whole thing is just friggin retarded, and I don't think an ever-loving Lord would want two people who love each other to be treated like crap by the government.

[sweatininthesouth]

"Why are non-Christians and gays such Christianphobes?

"kiss my ass, fag boy. You are not qualified to talk, teach, or preach against my God or my Savior. ONLY Christians know God as I do; Cowards know Him as you do know Him not. "

"If you were here before me this very moment, I would punk slap you."

"You are a self-serving piece of trash."

" Had God wanted homosexuals on this planet He would have created ONLY one sex."

" Fuck you stupid."
Warrior, in answer to your initial question as to why some of us are "Christianphobes", all it takes is to look at your quotes above. You, and so many other so-called "Christians" are full of hate and venom. Your ilk, are actually very devil-like because you hate and judge others so viciously. You do not follow the teaching's of Christ, as you profess. You make THINK you do because you attend church and believe the Bible literally, however, to be "Christ-like" you really need to have love in your heart and soul. All I see in your soul is hatred and bitterness.

You are the one who should leave this place and stop promoting your hatred in here. There are actually some very kind and loving Christians in here who are not opposed to same sex marriage. Those Christians are the ones who give the religion hope and endurance. You, however, contribute to the erosion of Christianity because of your intolerance.

[Sera Michele]

I think you should let your God judge. If you think it is wrong, thats fine. Doesn't mean everyone will agree with you. Doesn't mean everyone even has to agree with you. No one is going to force you to be gay. If your god exists and wants to punish people for their homosexuality than he will. It isn't up to christians to judge the way they think their god would.

Matthew 7:1-2 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. "

[Sunburst]

That's very true, Sera. It talks about how some things are wrong (and I would like to take this time to point out that the bible was revised many times, and also: Humans wrote the bible, and perhaps it is possible that they wrote what the Lord said, but misinterpreted it somehow?). I mean, if everyone sees things a different way, then isn't it possible they simply wrote what they understood from what God said, not exactly what God means?), but also not to judge. So save the judgement for God when it is your time.
Jesus teaches love, forgiveness, and acceptance over all other things.

[Megan]

How can you judge a God you dont know. Or ppl you dont know. All christians do not share the same beliefs. I am completely against gay relationships. And i feel that way because the Bible says it is wrong...however i would never turn anyone away...nor would God. It is your business who you are with and what gender you prefer as long as...i dont like it but i wouldnt condemn you for it.

[Real American]

Warrior, in answer to your initial question as to why some of us are "Christianphobes", all it takes is to look at your quotes above. You, and so many other so-called "Christians" are full of hate and venom. Your ilk, are actually very devil-like because you hate and judge others so viciously. You do not follow the teaching's of Christ, as you profess. You make THINK you do because you attend church and believe the Bible literally, however, to be "Christ-like" you really need to have love in your heart and soul. All I see in your soul is hatred and bitterness.
That seems like a stereotype right there. I mean, that's no different than saying to a black person "you, and so many other black people are full of hate and venom". Me personaly, I try to ignore the idiots and morons out there. If you notice, I already mentioned to warrior on his actions not being Christain like. What you have just said is that because a few "christains" have rubbed you the wrong way, you don't like the majority of them.

I think you should let your God judge. If you think it is wrong, thats fine. Doesn't mean everyone will agree with you. Doesn't mean everyone even has to agree with you. No one is going to force you to be gay. If your god exists and wants to punish people for their homosexuality than he will. It isn't up to christians to judge the way they think their god would.

Matthew 7:1-2 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. "Now if only some people could use what you said and apply it to themselves. "Noone is forcing you to be hetrosexual...". If it ever comes up in a vote, I will vote no. Until then, I think all judges that break the law should be jailed.

Jesus teaches love, forgiveness, and acceptance over all other things. But not acceptance of the sin. That is what I am doing here. Voicing my opinion as you are. We just disagree.

[Sera Michele]

There is a difference between voicing your opinion and this:



As I have said before, I am WARRIOR. My fight is for God. If you were here before me this very moment, I would punk slap you. Your desire isn't to question Christians about why they are agaisnt queer ways, your desire is to cause hatred towards Chritians. You are a self-serving piece of trash.
From my partner: Had God wanted homosexuals on this planet He would have created ONLY one sex. Here is one more for me and God to settle: Fuck you stupid.
I would just like to add, I can see how the title of this thread could be offensive, and is a generalization. I know some christians that aren't homophobes.

[mynameiskc]

lol. WWJD? i don't think he woulda said THAT. however, that's kinda the point. we're only human. becoming a christian doesn't mean that you're perfect, only that you try to be better to show that you ARE grateful for christ's sacrifice that brought you closer to god. christians, naturally, get pissed off, too. to degrade such a person for less than perfect behavior is sort of pointless, since a sensible christian knows very well that he has fallen short of the glory of god.

[mynameiskc]

There is a difference between voicing your opinion and this:



I would just like to add, I can see how the title of this thread could be offensive, and is a generalization. I know some christians that aren't homophobes.
just an extreme example, sera, but what you said there is like saying "i know some black people that aren't on welfare." it's a well, duh, sort of statement. but saying you only know 'some' christians that aren't homophobes is like saying that the vast majority are. i don't know ANY homophobe christians, actually, and i know quite a few christians.

[Sera Michele]

Well I grew up going to a Batist school...and there were some really fanatic about the religion, I was actually suspended from school for dating an african-american (for like 2 dates) because they believe that the bible says it is wrong.

I didn't mean it how it sounds, ever since I have left that school I have not met any other christian like that.

[mynameiskc]

well, there's likely to be a whole lot of people whom you would never peg to be christians out there. not many will be willing to speak up to you about it if they know that you're openly angry with the church school you attended. people can sense these things. i know i wouldn't open up the conversation.

[Warrior]

I think you should let your God judge. If you think it is wrong, thats fine. Doesn't mean everyone will agree with you. Doesn't mean everyone even has to agree with you. No one is going to force you to be gay. If your god exists and wants to punish people for their homosexuality than he will. It isn't up to christians to judge the way they think their god would.

Matthew 7:1-2 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. "
I am through with the profanity. It served its purpose when needed.

Sera: Matthew 7:1-2 says that we do not judge. It does not say that we should not uphold Gods judgement. Judea-Christians tend to believe that even as they point out a sentence from God or Jesus that they themselves are being the judges. God is the judge, we are His messengers. With an open heart and prayer, you will see that God and His Word is the definitive Word. Our duty is to carry it forth.

Well I grew up going to a Batist school...and there were some really fanatic about the religion, I was actually suspended from school for dating an african-american (for like 2 dates) because they believe that the bible says it is wrong.
Perhaps you should not have left that church. God too is a racist:

"Miscegenation was a crime to the Israelite people. The law that Moses handed down to Israel in Deuteronomy 23:2 says "A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord". Now the word "bastard" in the original Hebrew was a word "mamzer" and the meaning of that word is, a mongrel, one of a mixed race."
http://www.churchofthesonsofyhvh.org/our_christian_identity.htm

[Epiphany]

I am through with the profanity. It served its purpose when needed.

Sera: Matthew 7:1-2 says that we do not judge. It does not say that we should not uphold Gods judgement. Judea-Christians tend to believe that even as they point out a sentence from God or Jesus that they themselves are being the judges. God is the judge, we are His messengers. With an open heart and prayer, you will see that God and His Word is the definitive Word. Our duty is to carry it forth.

Perhaps you should not have left that church. God too is a racist:

"
http://www.churchofthesonsofyhvh.org/our_christian_identity.htm

God is NOT racist. I don't have a King James version with me, but my NIV says, "No one born of a forbidden marriage". I'm thinking forbidden means an incestuous relationship. For one, God does NOT exclude any one from his presence. These were the old temple laws. Jewish temples are strictly for the Jewish. No one else is allowed to enter. Futhermore, I don't think he would approve of the white supremacy crap associated with that link at the bottom. You speak out against Jews as well, but are you not aware that Jesus is going to come back to Israel to save his people? It was not just the Jewish leaders who wanted Jesus killed. It was the sins of humanity as a whole.

Sera Michele - You were right in leaving that church. Any church that teaches you that another culture is wrong, needs to be doing some hard core praying and seeking direction from God.

[Warrior]

Warrior, in answer to your initial question as to why some of us are "Christianphobes", all it takes is to look at your quotes above. You, and so many other so-called "Christians" are full of hate and venom. Your ilk, are actually very devil-like because you hate and judge others so viciously. You do not follow the teaching's of Christ, as you profess. You make THINK you do because you attend church and believe the Bible literally, however, to be "Christ-like" you really need to have love in your heart and soul. All I see in your soul is hatred and bitterness.

You are the one who should leave this place and stop promoting your hatred in here. There are actually some very kind and loving Christians in here who are not opposed to same sex marriage. Those Christians are the ones who give the religion hope and endurance. You, however, contribute to the erosion of Christianity because of your intolerance.
Do you seriously think that God is all loving? Noooooooooo.......Is Jesus? Nooooooooo. Am I full of "hate and venom"? Yeeeessssssss. My hatred and venom is for lies; My hatred and venom is towards those who spread those lies. I do not judge, as you say; I point out Gods judgement. God says, man shall not lie with man. Can you argue with God? Can you put His Holy Words below your governments deceitfull ways? Man shall not lie with man. Pretty simple. Anyone who professes to be Christian and argues against that is then an anti-Christ, a deceiver.


You, however, contribute to the erosion of Christianity because of your intolerance. Please reconsider your statement. Who between us is eroding Christianity? Tolerance is not a word used by God or Jesus. They do not tolerate abuse of Gods Word. If it makes you happy, swim in that Judea-Christian quagmire that is tolerance. In the end when you come up from it you will smell of a cesspool.

From abbaddaba:
You didn't answer my question. If you claim that you'll settle your score with God later on and you don't want to be bothered about using filthy language, denying the holocaust, and comparing yourself to Jesus, why won't you allow homosexuals that same freedom? Homosexuals have all the freedom they want. I don't deny them "freedom". I deny them rights. I deny them the right to partake of the holy union that is known as marriage; I deny them the right to be blessed by me in thier desire to corupt the words and teachings of God; I deny them the right to teach my child that they are good people; I deny them the right to associate with me or my child; I deny them the right to live peacably among me or mine; I deny them the right to flaunt their ways; i deny them respect; I deny them, period.

You are such a hypocrite. I am very glad that most Christians aren't as stupid as you. I'll ask you once more: What makes a homosexual's sins worse than your sins?Do you know my sins? Do I profess my sins as good? Do I polute this board with my sins in an attempt to sway others into believing that my sins are acceptable by Jesus simply because I foolheartedly think that He is not against them? This is the difference in our sins: I keep mine between God and I. I work to cleanse those sins; homosexuals promote thier sins. They do not repent them. Pretty obvious, isn't it?

Your particular brand of Christianity DESERVES the hatred it receives. Now go don your white sheet and burn some crosses, you piece of Alabama white trash.
Thus far I have been called a Nazi, a Neo-Nazi, an asshole, a Skinhead, and now a Klansman. Isn't it strange how "we love everyone" liberal hippies aren't so liberal when it comes to people of different views. BTW. The hippies of the 60s that you all try to imulate - they are mostly all sellouts to the Capitalist pigs that they ranted against.

And why did you not respond to this:
True, as you say Jew and Muslim "homophobia" are not on a daily baisis addressed. However through the jewish media it has become acceptable to be pro-fag. They are not pro-gay, but they do like Christians to be, because it fullfills thier agenda to destroy Christians. I would not bring this up except that the jew hates Jesus and will do all that is required to turn man against Him. Think about it. If you had control of mind controling things such as the media (newspapers, television, etc.), whose agenda would you promote?

[Brocktoon]

I kinda like this 'Warrior' poster.


Reminds me of Juiceman3000 on steroids :p

[Epiphany]

Do you seriously think that God is all loving? Noooooooooo.......Is Jesus? Nooooooooo.
I'm not really sure what Bible you are reading, but that is one of the most Un-Christian statements I have ever read from someone claiming to be a Christian. If you weren't all loving, would you die on a cross to save mankind who is not willing to accept your message? There is a difference between being rude and standing up for your faith. I agree that I am not particularly thrilled to read about people who only have negative things to say about the Lord. His message is for every one, but not every one will accept it. That is their own choice. We as Christians are here to spread God's message, but not to back someone into a corner until they accept it. I understand that you want to be a warrior for Christ, but the idea of being a good Christian soldier is more of a spiritual war with the devil than a war with others. Of course you should stand your ground, but swearing, and condemning really isn't showing a fruitful spirit.



Homosexuals have all the freedom they want. I don't deny them "freedom". I deny them rights. I deny them the right to partake of the holy union that is known as marriage; I deny them the right to be blessed by me in thier desire to corupt the words and teachings of God; I deny them the right to teach my child that they are good people; I deny them the right to associate with me or my child; I deny them the right to live peacably among me or mine; I deny them the right to flaunt their ways; i deny them respect; I deny them, period.
It is understandable that you would want to keep your child from certain things, such as watching half naked women parade around on tv, or certain role models in this day and age that are only of negative influence, but it would be more Christian to teach your child that God loves every one becaue he does. God doesn't hate homosexuals. He says it is wrong. It is a matter of repentence and turning away from sin. If God was hateful, he would not have come down in the flesh (as Jesus Christ) and then die on a cross, and no one would be able to recieve salvation. It is very un-Christian to teach your children to be prejudice.

[mynameiskc]

i think a lot of the anti-homosexuality clauses in the bible were more for politico/social reasons that anything actually to do with god. i firmly believe that the jews of the day were striving very hard to differentiate themselves from the dominant religious/sexual practices of the surrounding cultures. monogamy being the key, and you can't be monogamous if your having homosexual relations. since the jews were all married, it would be impossible. adultery destabilizes an entire small community. therefore, make god against it.


god doesn't make mistakes, people do. i don't believe the writers to be infallible. i cannot help it that i'm attracted to women. there was no choice involved. however, once i got married, well, after a while anyway (having had a husband not threatened by it), i decided not to have sex with people outside of that relationship. god made me. god loves me, and i'm bi. i'm not evil, and i'm not wrong. adultery was the crime, not the love.

[sweatininthesouth]

Homosexuals have all the freedom they want. I don't deny them "freedom". I deny them rights. I deny them the right to partake of the holy union that is known as marriage; I deny them the right to be blessed by me in thier desire to corupt the words and teachings of God; I deny them the right to teach my child that they are good people; I deny them the right to associate with me or my child; I deny them the right to live peacably among me or mine; I deny them the right to flaunt their ways; i deny them respect; I deny them, period.

And what if your child just happens to turn out to be gay? Will you deny them equal rights, not associate with them or choose to live peacefully with them, deny them respect and deny them, period??

[seamonster66]

Christians that are homophobic are afraid of the sinful love that lives in their own hearts, take this warrior guy, definite homosexual who fights it with every word he can find in the bible.


Warrior, I am going to find some old stories to deny you rights.

[Sera Michele]

I've studied the Bible, for quite a long time. I understand the Bible very well. The Bible does not encourage the kind of hate and judgement that is coming from Warrior.


Sera: Matthew 7:1-2 says that we do not judge. It does not say that we should not uphold Gods judgement.
Well, maybe not that verse in the Bible, but it does say it elsewhere.

1 Corinthians 4:4-5
4My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts.


Romans 14:9-13

9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "[1 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?language=English&version=NIV&search=&passage=Ro+14:1-15#footnote_192599806_1)] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way


Romans 2:1
1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.


The above passages are asking you specifially to not look down on or judge your brother, because they will all bow before the Lord and be judged, just like you will. You are not judging by pointing out verses in the Bible, but this is a little more than pointing out verses:

I deny them the right to associate with me or my child; I deny them the right to live peacably among me or mine; I deny them the right to flaunt their ways; i deny them respect; I deny them, period.
Pay attention to my posts and the meaning of same. Jesus IS the son of GOD. He loves and respects GODS word. GODS Word is against homosexuality! Sorry, person. I will not argue against God who created me and His Son who gave me to him. So, (one more for me and God to settle), kiss my ass, fag boy. You are not qualified to talk, teach, or preach against my God or my Savior. ONLY Christians know God as I do; Cowards know Him as you do know Him not. As I have said before, I am WARRIOR. My fight is for God. If you were here before me this very moment, I would punk slap you. Your desire isn't to question Christians about why they are agaisnt queer ways, your desire is to cause hatred towards Chritians. You are a self-serving piece of trash. You hate Jesus because He hates your ways. Leave this topic alone. Go peacefully among your brethern and suffer the consequences. Remember the woman in John 8 who commited adultry, whom the people wanted to stone? What did Jesus say to them, even though God specifically calls adultry a sin?

John 8:7
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

Are you without sin?


I John 1:8
"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

[Brocktoon]

Allow me to paraphrase what has become the most abused and needlessly misunderstood teaching of Jesus:



"Judge not lest you be judged"



That is not what it says anyway.. thoughts are communicated in sentences so read the entire thought or do not bother reading it at all.


The thought itself goes like this (in King James english.. which is part of the problem as I will explain later)

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measurement ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

But wait.. theres more... this isnt just hurled out from nowhere... Jesus then clarifies what He just said.
(for those who mistakenly believe that it 'open to any interpretation')

And why beholdest thou the mote (speck) that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and them shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.”

FINALLY... for some of us, this will be a shocker because they have been used to parroting the rumour - "for does not you own bible teach 'thou shalt not judge'.
NO.

Now the problem is that people are quoting an olde form of english which we dont use anymore. So here comes my 'modern' paraphrase:

DO Judge.. but make certain you judge FAIRLY.

DO JUDGE... but make certain you judge FAIRLY!

People are absolutely insane and completely silly if they think for one minute that you are not called to make JUDGEMENTS all day, about people, places and things. 24/7 you will be making judgements!

Here, the eternally wise Jesus simply, clearly and without 'soft interpration or vague moral tales' CLEARLY explains to be a fair and proper judge.

So yes... JUDGE.. You should Judge but make sure its PROPER and FAIR judgement in which you apply the exact same standards to yourself!

Fair judgement can ALSO INCLUDE.... acknowledging that you are not in a good position to make a rationale or fair judgment.. that you are biased yourself and therefore NOT making a conclusion yet either cant it?

Hope that clears things up?

[mynameiskc]

not really, that whole mote and beam thing still says to me, how can you judge your brother, you hypocrite, when you got troubles of your own. hence, judge not lest ye be judged.

[Brocktoon]

not really, that whole mote and beam thing still says to me, how can you judge your brother, you hypocrite, when you got troubles of your own. hence, judge not lest ye be judged.

You know.. I shouldnt talk on the phone while trying to type .. more later

[Epiphany]

I am going to agree with Brocktoon to a certain extent. When it comes to these certain verses in the Bible, there are different situations in which judgement must be possible. For example, if someone is doing something that is potentially harmful to themselves or another, then of course, you must do what is beneficial to all parties and get involved. Obviously, to sit back and not judge, could result in dangerous aftermaths. When Jesus said not to judge he means, you cannot call another person a sinner, because you yourself sin as well. No one is exempt from sin.

[Christianwriter]

The Bible is vague on these issues on purpose. It gives the reader a chance to think about what and what isn't considered a sin. In this case, homosexuality is considered a sin.

Not all Christians are homophobes. I don't hate gays nor am I scared of them. I just oppose their lifestyle, that's all. Nothing wrong with having an opinion like that. A former co-worker of mine is gay and we occasionally had lunch together. Now he works in a different department and I hardly see him. He's a heckuva nice guy but he's a little weird sometimes LOL.

[Warrior]

The Bible is vague on these issues on purpose. It gives the reader a chance to think about what and what isn't considered a sin. In this case, homosexuality is considered a sin.

Not all Christians are homophobes. I don't hate gays nor am I scared of them. I just oppose their lifestyle, that's all. Nothing wrong with having an opinion like that. A former co-worker of mine is gay and we occasionally had lunch together. Now he works in a different department and I hardly see him. He's a heckuva nice guy but he's a little weird sometimes LOL.
The Bible is vague on nothing. If one takes the time to study it and less time hearing about it they will know this.

Homophobe is another word for fear of homosexuality. In order for one to fear anything, they first need to experience it. After all no one fears height untill they have been to a height that they have never experienced before. So the term "homophobe" applies only to those who have experienced homosexuality in some way. Think on this: If you are a female who is disgusted by the thought of oral or anal sex, then who should dictate that you should accept it? Your boyfriend, your lover, your friends, your SOCIETY? Why should any person accept anything they themselves perceive to be wrong? Basically, Christians are this way. We perceive, by our religious teachings and an inner knowledge, that gay is wrong. Plain and simple who has the authority to dictate that we are wrong for beliving as we do?

Would someone at this IP(80.71.72.255 in the Netherlands) please quit attacking my computer?

[seamonster66]

hahah thats awesome someone is attacking your computer, you must feel pretty lonely out on your compound with all the world against you besides your over affectionate father.

[SimpleMan]

Christians want to see everyone go to heaven. The Bible teaches us that whoever practices homosexual acts will not get into heaven. Its not natural. I do not hate anyone. I would love to see everyone come to Jesus Christ. You have to stop living for sin and start living for him.

[Warrior]

hahah thats awesome someone is attacking your computer, you must feel pretty lonely out on your compound with all the world against you besides your over affectionate father.
Not at all. Your mother keeps me and my deceased, "over affectioanate father", very good company. She does say to let you know that you and your "overly affectionate father" aren't missed.

We can debate intelligently, or we can set up an entire thread to childishly insult each other. Which do you prefer?

From Sera John 8:7
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
If you will take the time to read the passages prior to John 8:7 then you will see that the scribes and Pharisees were trying to trick Jesus. At the end of that chapter, John 8:59, the same jews tried to stone Jesus. And, if you will consider for a moment, He was not speaking to all of man kind but a group of men in John 8:7.

Romans 1:25-32.
Here God condemns homosexuals and others.

[sweatininthesouth]

A former co-worker of mine is gay and we occasionally had lunch together. Now he works in a different department and I hardly see him..
LOL I guess the fact that you "occassionally" lunched with a gay person, entitles you to judge their lifestyle..... Is your lunching with gays supposed to make you an expert on their lifestyle? Or make you empathetic to their social situation (i.e. excluded from equal rights under the law).

Ha ha! You and Warrior should hook up. I'm sure you would both raise some awesome neo-nazi babies!

[seamonster66]

Quote: We can debate intelligently, or we can set up an entire thread to childishly insult each other. Which do you prefer?


There is no debating intelligently with a neo-nazi, christian holocaust denier. I wish all the worst for you, and as long as you aren't banned, I'm gonna flame your sorry ass every chance I get.

I wish the worst to you, I really do. You are truly hideous in your mind, and probably elsewhere. Seriously, fuck off and I'll be happy.

Reading these make me glad Ileft southern California, the shittiest most decadent area of the country and crawling with christian fanatics, what a hideous combination.

[Warrior]

Why are Christians obsessed with who complete strangers have sex with, when Jesus never once mentioned homosexuality? It wasn't even on your god's top ten list of sins. In fact, there are more references in the Bible prohibiting the eating of meat than there are prohibiting homosexuality.

With that said, I challenge any Christian to give a rational argument against civil rights for gays in the form of marriage, adoption, and military service.
I fully support the right of all people to have "civil rights". I do not consider marriage to be a "civil right". As a Christian, I view marriage as a relgious tradition and commitment sanctified by God. I am against gays adopting on the grounds that I personally and religiously belive that it is immoral to indoctrinate children into a "life style" that is anti-God. I support gays being in the military. I believe that everyone has a responsibility to thier country and service in the military is one way to live up to that responsibility.





"Truth is called Hate by those who Hate the Truth," --- Edgar Steele, Esquire

[xdianax]

I am against gays adopting on the grounds that I personally and religiously belive that it is immoral to indoctrinate children into a "life style" that is anti-God.

anti-
prefix

1. a. Opposite: antimere.
b. Opposing; against: antiapartheid.
c. Counteracting; neutralizing: antacid.
d. Destroying: antiaircraft.

2. a. Inverse: antilogarithm.
b. Displaying opposite characteristics: antihero.





How is homosexuality anti-God?
I do not see how homosexuality is the opposite of God, opposes God, counteracts God, destroys God, is the inverse of God, or displays opposite characteristics of God.


:) Namaste,

Diana

[Warrior]

anti-
prefix

1. a. Opposite: antimere.
b. Opposing; against: antiapartheid.
c. Counteracting; neutralizing: antacid.
d. Destroying: antiaircraft.

2. a. Inverse: antilogarithm.
b. Displaying opposite characteristics: antihero.





How is homosexuality anti-God?
I do not see how homosexuality is the opposite of God, opposes God, counteracts God, destroys God, is the inverse of God, or displays opposite characteristics of God.

I believe that question has been answered several times here.

[xdianax]

I have gone through and read most of the posts but homosexuality does not seem to be anti-God. People have quoted from the Bible, and spoke from what they know, but I have seen you use the phrase anti-God a few times, and I would like to know what you mean by that. For example, not respecting ones mother and father is considered a sin according to the fourth commandment. However, :H one would not say that one who is not respecting their parents is "anti-God". I am simply curious by what you mean.


Homosexuals have all the freedom they want. I don't deny them "freedom". I deny them rights. I deny them the right to partake of the holy union that is known as marriage; I deny them the right to be blessed by me in thier desire to corupt the words and teachings of God; I deny them the right to teach my child that they are good people; I deny them the right to associate with me or my child; I deny them the right to live peacably among me or mine; I deny them the right to flaunt their ways; i deny them respect; I deny them, period.
I know you have said that you are not homophobic-meaning you don't have a fear of homosexuals. However, when going over the posts I saw this paragraph and found it very interesting. You mention how you're denying homosexuals the right to do all these things simply because according to you they are sinning by having sexual intercourse with others of their gender. These acts of denying seem to show pure fear. I can't really understand. If you do not fear homosexuals why is it so important that they been denied all these things if according to your beliefs they will be judged by God and given their punishment anyway?



:) Namaste,

Diana

[Real American]

I am sorry to say this, but in my opinion, Warrior is not representing Jesus here. To me it seems he is representing a harsh opinion. Definatly not that of a true Christian.

[Sera Michele]

From Sera
If you will take the time to read the passages prior to John 8:7 then you will see that the scribes and Pharisees were trying to trick Jesus. At the end of that chapter, John 8:59, the same jews tried to stone Jesus. And, if you will consider for a moment, He was not speaking to all of man kind but a group of men in John 8:7.

SO you are trying to tell me that what Jesus meant was: "Since you are trying to trick Jesus you shouldn't cast stones, but if you aren't trying to trick Jesus at all you can throw all the stones you want." ....??


Fact of the matter is, Jesus said, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

It's pretty obvious what he meant.

[seamonster66]

Quote: I am sorry to say this, but in my opinion, Warrior is not representing Jesus here. To me it seems he is representing a harsh opinion. Definatly not that of a true Christian.

For once i agree with you, being a christian does not mix with being a nazi. Warrior has probably beaten minorities and likely gays too, I don't think that coincides with it either.

[Warrior]

I have gone through and read most of the posts but homosexuality does not seem to be anti-God. People have quoted from the Bible, and spoke from what they know, but I have seen you use the phrase anti-God a few times, and I would like to know what you mean by that. For example, not respecting ones mother and father is considered a sin according to the fourth commandment. However, :H one would not say that one who is not respecting their parents is "anti-God". I am simply curious by what you mean.



I know you have said that you are not homophobic-meaning you don't have a fear of homosexuals. However, when going over the posts I saw this paragraph and found it very interesting. You mention how you're denying homosexuals the right to do all these things simply because according to you they are sinning by having sexual intercourse with others of their gender. These acts of denying seem to show pure fear. I can't really understand. If you do not fear homosexuals why is it so important that they been denied all these things if according to your beliefs they will be judged by God and given their punishment anyway?



:) Namaste,

Diana
Simply put, "anti-God" is any thing that is against Gods words. Homosexuality is against Gods words.

Homosexuality is something that is denied by God - they are refused access to heaven, therefore they are also denied access to my home and my life.

At 15 I am sure you are very well educated in the science of psychology and capable of analysing me as a homophobe. Why do you insist that I am afraid of gays simply because I chose to keep them out of my life. I also refuse access to my life by murderers, pedophiles, and many others. Yet, strangely I do not fear those people either. I simply know that they are not condusive to a happy life for me and mine.

From Sera: SO you are trying to tell me that what Jesus meant was: "Since you are trying to trick Jesus you shouldn't cast stones, but if you aren't trying to trick Jesus at all you can throw all the stones you want." ....??
Is this your attempt to trick me? I have already given you an answer.

Fact of the matter is, Jesus said, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
Again, Jesus was speaking to the ones who were threatening the woman. It was a statement made directly to the ones who wished to kill her. Period.

seamonster66Quote: I am sorry to say this, but in my opinion, Warrior is not representing Jesus here. To me it seems he is representing a harsh opinion. Definatly not that of a true Christian.

For once i agree with you, being a christian does not mix with being a nazi. Warrior has probably beaten minorities and likely gays too, I don't think that coincides with it either.
Real American: There are many and different variations of Christianity.

sea: I have fought, and won my fights, against minorities, (hispanics and blacks). I have never to my knowledge had a physical confrontation with a gay person.

Perhaps you should study a bit about National Socialism before claiming that it does not mix with Christianity. You may be mistaking Communism for Socialism. It happens alot.

[xdianax]

Simply put, "anti-God" is any thing that is against Gods words. Homosexuality is against Gods words.

Homosexuality is something that is denied by God - they are refused access to heaven, therefore they are also denied access to my home and my life.

At 15 I am sure you are very well educated in the science of psychology and capable of analysing me as a homophobe. Why do you insist that I am afraid of gays simply because I chose to keep them out of my life. I also refuse access to my life by murderers, pedophiles, and many others. Yet, strangely I do not fear those people either. I simply know that they are not condusive to a happy life for me and mine.

At 15, in school they really haven't been talking that much about psychology, instead we have been busy focusing on evolution and biology. I do not know if you do or don't fear homosexuals, I was simply making a hypothesis.

Warrior, if you truly believe that homosexuality is "against" God, then I cannot stop you from believing that; its your right. However, in the passage I quoted in my last post, that you said, you deny homosexuals rights that are guaranteed to all human beings. In this country there is a separation between Church and State. You might not want to associate with homosexuals, but they have the right to live in peace among you and "yours" (I assume you meant heteroseuxals). It seems as if you want them to be locked away from the world. And why should a homosexual be denied the right to teach that they are a good person to our children, just as you think you have the right to teach that they aren't? Maybe in your religious community you and your fellow Christians can shun homosexuals; however as far as with the rest of the country, and the world, homosexuals will still have the right to "flaunt their ways", just as others "flaunt" their heterosexual ways; the right to associate with whoever they want; the right to partake in the union that is known as marriage in the eyes of the government; the right to teach and preach what they know/believe; and of course, the right to live in peace among other human beings.


sea: I have fought, and won my fights, against minorities, (hispanics and blacks). I have never to my knowledge had a physical confrontation with a gay person.


Just curious by what you mean when you say you have "fought" against minorities. Physically? or in a debate?


:) Namaste,

Diana

[Dizzy Man]

I'm getting tired of writing this, now...

Christians do not condemn homosexuals.

Any Christians that do are either not very familiar with The Bible, or they're simply looking for a justification for their homophobia.

The Bible does not condemn homosexuals; homosexuality did not exist in Biblical times. Everyone was assumed to be straight. There is not one mention of homosexuality in the entire Bible — only sex between two men, which is completely different. Having gay sex does not make you gay, and being gay does not make gay sex mandatory.

One section of The Old Testament forbids many things, including gay sex between men. But nobody follows these rules any more; they were given specifically to Old Testament people in Old Testament times. Following them today would be virtually impossible in modern society. For example, nobody can make sure every chair they sit in hasn't already been sat in by a menstruating woman. And have you ever known a Christian to preach against men shaving their beards?

Also, The Bible can't be taken line-by-line as the word of God since it was written by humans, and bias (and occasionally lies) are bound to creep in. There is strong evidence to suggest that some of the stuff in The Bible was made up. I believe The Bible as a whole represents the word of God, but the fact is that each sentence in The Bible is the word of a man from a bygone era.

People in Biblical times did not understand sexuality or evolutionary instinct, so they thought that homosexual acts were wrong and perverse. Therefore, it is only natural that this ethos would make its way into The Bible, either directly stated or through implication. Other implications of cultural values found their way in, too (such as women being inferior to men). That does not make them the word of God.

If you want to know what God thinks, listen to the words of his son.

[Epiphany]

I'm getting tired of writing this, now...


The Bible does not condemn homosexuals; homosexuality did not exist in Biblical times. Everyone was assumed to be straight. There is not one mention of homosexuality in the entire Bible — only sex between two men, which is completely different. Having gay sex does not make you gay, and being gay does not make gay sex mandatory. The Bible states that having sex with one of the same gender is destable in eyes of God.

New Testament:
Romans 1:26&27 - Men commiting indecent acts with other men. (Does this not take place between homosexual men?) (Not many people, heterosexual or homosexual, follow the no sex before marriage idea, and that is sad)
1 Corinthians 6:9 - "Homosexual offenders" - It does say homosexual

If you want to know what God thinks, listen to the words of his son.The Bible is the word of God, if you want to know what he thinks, read it. Jesus is God in flesh form. Their words are the same.

[Warrior]

The Bible states that having sex with one of the same gender is destable in eyes of God.

New Testament:
Romans 1:26&27 - Men commiting indecent acts with other men. (Does this not take place between homosexual men?) (Not many people, heterosexual or homosexual, follow the no sex before marriage idea, and that is sad)
1 Corinthians 6:9 - "Homosexual offenders" - It does say homosexual

The Bible is the word of God, if you want to know what he thinks, read it. Jesus is God in flesh form. Their words are the same.
This is not handy, but anyone who has studied the Bible knows it is there. One of the reasons S&G were destroyed was because of homosexuality - male and female.


Homosexuals have all the freedom they want. I don't deny them "freedom". I deny them rights. I deny them the right to partake of the holy union that is known as marriage; I deny them the right to be blessed by me in thier desire to corupt the words and teachings of God; I deny them the right to teach my child that they are good people; I deny them the right to associate with me or my child; I deny them the right to live peacably among me or mine; I deny them the right to flaunt their ways; i deny them respect; I deny them, period.
These acts of denying seem to show pure fear. I can't really understand. If you do not fear homosexuals why is it so important that they been denied all these things if according to your beliefs they will be judged by God and given their punishment anyway?

At 15, in school they really haven't been talking that much about psychology, instead we have been busy focusing on evolution and biology. I do not know if you do or don't fear homosexuals, I was simply making a hypothesis.

Warrior, if you truly believe that homosexuality is "against" God, then I cannot stop you from believing that; its your right. However, in the passage I quoted in my last post, that you said, you deny homosexuals rights that are guaranteed to all human beings. In this country there is a separation between Church and State. You might not want to associate with homosexuals, but they have the right to live in peace among you and "yours" (I assume you meant heteroseuxals). It seems as if you want them to be locked away from the world. And why should a homosexual be denied the right to teach that they are a good person to our children, just as you think you have the right to teach that they aren't? Maybe in your religious community you and your fellow Christians can shun homosexuals; however as far as with the rest of the country, and the world, homosexuals will still have the right to "flaunt their ways", just as others "flaunt" their heterosexual ways; the right to associate with whoever they want; the right to partake in the union that is known as marriage in the eyes of the government; the right to teach and preach what they know/believe; and of course, the right to live in peace among other human beings.


Quote:
sea: I have fought, and won my fights, against minorities, (hispanics and blacks). I have never to my knowledge had a physical confrontation with a gay person.


Just curious by what you mean when you say you have "fought" against minorities. Physically? or in a debate?
Yes, there is suppose to be a seperation of church and state. It does not exist, but it is proclaimed. In spite of this seperation I follow my God before my country. As for "the eyes of the government", they are glued shut to the people. It is all for money and power.

My denial is not "fear". My denial is by Gods word. I will not allow a murderer or pedophile into my home, why a homo? God specifically states that we do not associate with people of these types. What is the problem here? Do any of you want to associate with a person like me - a confessed racist and anti-semite? NO! You prefer the company of idolators and blasphemers to me. Guess what? I prefer to be alone to your company , but God commands that I do His work. And you self-rightous "Christians", read these words: In the end times man will turn against God and persecute His people. You see it; You live it. But tell me, who is the most dispised Christian among you here? Even the "Christians" deny me as thier brother. Even the Christians eyes are closed to the words of God - Blinded by deceivers.

sea: I have fought, and won my fights, against minorities, (hispanics and blacks). I have never to my knowledge had a physical confrontation with a gay person. seamonkey had made a statement that I probably beat up on minorities and gays. I was answering that. In my reply I was affirming that I had had physical fights with minorities but not gays.

[Epiphany]

This is not handy, but anyone who has studied the Bible knows it is there. One of the reasons S&G were destroyed was because of homosexuality - male and female.
That's basically what I said in the first statement. I was pointing out the new testament facts since quite a few people seem to not follow the old testament. Personally, I try to follow the whole book.

[Warrior]

That's basically what I said in the first statement. I was pointing out the new testament facts since quite a few people seem to not follow the old testament. Personally, I try to follow the whole book.Good for you! It is good to see that someone here is bright enough to know that misguided ignorance and not God devided His Holy words into 2 Testaments.

However Sodom and Gomorrah are in the Old Testament. Either way, you know that they go together and that is what is importance.

Another thing that I am not going to look up: Jesus said not to cast pearls before swine. Christians are attempting that here if you will look closely at our biggest haters (and look at Jesus' words on who He was speaking of). We as Christians have never said here that we hate homosexuals or fear homodexuals, but because we do not go along with majority opinion, we are the sick and disgusting ones. And if we do not love them then we are not "Christians". But, just as Jesus, we are not loved either; just as Jesus, we are feared. We have that truth that they have never found, and it makes them jealous. I say these fools will worship thier false gods and bow down before idols of man, but tomorrow as they awaken and say, " oh, damn, another day." We will say, "Thank you Lord, for this day. Amen."

[abbadabba]

Good for you! It is good to see that someone here is bright enough to know that misguided ignorance and not God devided His Holy words into 2 Testaments.
You're that big fat kid from American History X, aren't you? Just admit it.

[Epiphany]

Christians have never said here that we hate homosexuals or fear homodexuals

Exactly... it's interesting how we continue to point this out because others continue to argue.

[Warrior]

You're that big fat kid from American History X, aren't you? Just admit it.http://photobucket.com/albums/v175/Warrior101/th_offtopic.gif (http://photobucket.com/albums/v175/Warrior101/?action=view&current=offtopic.gif)

I dont even know any "homophobes". Seems the most frightened people here are anti-Christians. Instead of Christians hating and fearing homosexuals, it shines brightly before my eyes that there is an intolerant bunch here who, despite thier preachings of tolerance, cannot, will not tolerate the Christians views and beliefs. This funny little group expects Christians to accept that they will not tolerate us, but DEMANDS that we tolerate a perverse behavior. Why is this, Christianphobes?

[xdianax]

This is not handy, but anyone who has studied the Bible knows it is there. One of the reasons S&G were destroyed was because of homosexuality - male and female.

Yes, there is suppose to be a seperation of church and state. It does not exist, but it is proclaimed. In spite of this seperation I follow my God before my country. As for "the eyes of the government", they are glued shut to the people. It is all for money and power.

My denial is not "fear". My denial is by Gods word. I will not allow a murderer or pedophile into my home, why a homo? God specifically states that we do not associate with people of these types. What is the problem here? Do any of you want to associate with a person like me - a confessed racist and anti-semite? NO! You prefer the company of idolators and blasphemers to me. Guess what? I prefer to be alone to your company , but God commands that I do His work. And you self-rightous "Christians", read these words: In the end times man will turn against God and persecute His people. You see it; You live it. But tell me, who is the most dispised Christian among you here? Even the "Christians" deny me as thier brother. Even the Christians eyes are closed to the words of God - Blinded by deceivers.

seamonkey had made a statement that I probably beat up on minorities and gays. I was answering that. In my reply I was affirming that I had had physical fights with minorities but not gays.


I am not a Christian, so I guess you weren't taking to me about the lack of accepting you as a brother. However, according to my own personal beliefs and what I have learned from the religion I follow, I should never despise anyone, including you.

"The man who foolishly does me wrong, I will return to him the protection of my most ungrudging love; and the more evil comes from him, the more good shall go from me. "

"'He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,' in those who do not harbour such thoughts hatred is appeased."

So, although I debate with you on this forum, and completely disagree on certain issues, do not think I hate you.


I found a really good site I think you and others should read. The author of the website talks about the mention of same gender sex in the bible. Whoever wrote it seems to have great knowledge about the bible IMO, so before completely disreguarding the site, at least take a look at it.

Finally, I must say it is a very disturbing to know you fight people of other races. Why would you fight someone physically at all? Did Jesus ever roll up his sleeves and start fighting someone based on the color of their skin?


:) Namaste,

Diana


***Edit: Sorry =/ I realized that I forgot to post the website that I mentioned above. Unfortunately I didn't bookmark it so now I am desperately searching on Google to find it. Sorry, I'm looking for it as fast as I can.***

[shoelaceknots]

I am a great believer in God..yes.

Yes, the bible Does state that homosexuality is a sin......but my question is...why would it be considered a sin? Love all that you see.....
If a man (or a woman) acts upon homosexuality, alot of people look at them as nasty, and like it's the biggest sin known to man....and I too have realized that most that are against homosexuality(between male AND female) Are Christians.

I'm not meaning to rustle any feathers here...but yeah.
Homosexuality is also considered a CRIME if you act physically upon it with another person.....WHY is love, lust, and happiness ILLEGAL for them, and not for straight people (gonna get some really big answers on that one i know...ack)
Homosexuals have feelings too, they don't express their feelings any different than straight people do....they are just attracted to the same sex, why is that a crime? and why is gay bashing not mentioned anywhere? Is it in the bible that one should not act in an irrational way to people that are homosexuals????....
I really lost what i was trying to say here....I am a christian, and i am one of VERY FEW that i know that are for homosexuality...
A church that i used to go to, a friend still goes to it.....That WHOLE CHURCH is going..i think this weekend... to PROTEST homosexuality and gay marrige...now tell me.....is this really freedom for everyone? for it to be ILLEGAL? America is supposed to be the land of the free.....not land of the controling.

[Epiphany]

.WHY is love, lust, and happiness ILLEGAL for them, and not for straight people
Well, lust is a sin for everyone. Acting on it is a sin for everyone as well. God created men and women for the purpose of childbirth. That is just how he chose for it to be. We cannot comprehend all the things of God. I will agree that it is sad because of the aspect of love and happiness. Honestly, I feel for those in homosexual relationships.

[xdianax]

Warrior said: "If God wanted homosexuals he would have only made one sex."
I say: "If God didn't want same gender sex he would not have created homosexuals."

:) Namaste,

Diana

[xdianax]

oh, and btw, about the site that I said I would post :( I can't seem to find it again. This is really disappointing and depressing, since I have looked through countless sites on Google to find it again. I might try to find another site, but I doubt it will be as good as the one I had originally seen.

:) Namaste,

Diana

[sweatininthesouth]

"If God didn't want same gender sex he would not have created homosexuals."

hmmmm, I like your perspective. Makes very good sense :)



..

[bandit28]

Hey warrior, show where it says in The Bible to hate Jews and other races? You are the one who is mixed up. I agree homosexuality is wrong, even if someone tries to use non biblical reasoning, man and woman are not created to love same sex in the way that a man and woman are ment to love each other. Tell ya what warrior, sit down and have a serious prayer session with God. Ask Him about racism, if you get the answer that it is ok, you are praying to yourself, and God isn't involved.

[xdianax]

Sigh...I haven't been able to find that site again to my dismay. However I did find some other sites which serve as good substitutes:

http://www.gayxjw.org/bible.html
http://www.geocities.com/ninure/bible.html


:) Namaste,

Diana

[Warrior]

Hey warrior, show where it says in The Bible to hate Jews and other races? You are the one who is mixed up. I agree homosexuality is wrong, even if someone tries to use non biblical reasoning, man and woman are not created to love same sex in the way that a man and woman are ment to love each other. Tell ya what warrior, sit down and have a serious prayer session with God. Ask Him about racism, if you get the answer that it is ok, you are praying to yourself, and God isn't involved.
Sorry,bandit, this thread is about Christian homophobes and your question is way off topic. I respect skip enough to not stray that far off. Post a new thread and I will respond.

xdianaxWarrior said: "If God wanted homosexuals he would have only made one sex."
I say: "If God didn't want same gender sex he would not have created homosexuals."

God created man and woman. Sexually, beyond man and woman, is not of God. No where does God approve of homosexuals; nowhere does satan disapprove of them.

[Epiphany]

Warrior said: "If God wanted homosexuals he would have only made one sex."
I say: "If God didn't want same gender sex he would not have created homosexuals."
God created yeast, he didn't intend for people to make beer, get drunk and then drive. God created tobacco plants, but he didn't intend for us to invent cigarettes and cause people to die. Warrior is right, if God intended people of the same sex to be together, then it would have been made mention of in the Bible. Instead, the Bible says that it's wrong. Using the, "God created", theory may sound nice, but it's not true.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

But did God not create animals and then say, "Thou shalt not kill"? ...we still do though...also don't say that Jesus did it, so its ok...Jesus also died on the cross to save us from our sins...so unless you are willing to do that, do not say that you can do what Jesus does (and that was off Srila Prabhupada, paraphrased, don't want to take the credit for that one...)


So, we cannot pick and choose what we want to follow and what we don't... nonetheless...what is wrong with homosexuality if it doesn't lead to sex (I know I'm thinking perfect world here...but let me finish). If a couple wanted to get married so that they could legally be a family and adopt children, would that be unacceptable? Would you rather have children go from foster home to foster home all their lives or live in war torn countries, when they could have a chance at a new life with people who love them and would care and provide for them? You say that marriage is the sacred bond between a man and a woman...but if we are going to go on separation of church and state, there's nothing wrong with a civil union...it doesn't bother the church, so it shouldn't bother you because no one is asking you to do that, nor are homosexuals going and requesting to marry in your church...

Also, wasn't it Jesus, when people were casting stones at the sinners, that he who has not sinned may cast the first stone (I don't know the exact quote...I remember stories not exact things...)...? So, regardless of whether or not the Bible says homosexuality is wrong or right...unless you have never sinned before in your life...I don't think you are in the exact possition to say things flat out about homosexuality...or whatever else...

...we are not perfect beings...we try to improve ourselves...so we should worry about our own spirituality and achieving God realization, God consciousness...and not point fingers so much at others...

That's all I have to say. You could agree or not agree...but I am saying it nonetheless...

[Epiphany]

But did God not create animals and then say, "Thou shalt not kill"? ...we still do though
He gave us animals for food. "Of all the animals that live on the land, these are the ones you may eat" (Leviticus 11:1)

So, we cannot pick and choose what we want to follow and what we don't... nonetheless
Exactly...Like I have said before, someone who is serious about God will not try to pick and choose.


what is wrong with homosexuality if it doesn't lead to sex
Well, if they are getting married, then sex will most likely be involved. Actually, in this day and age, sex tends to take place before marriage regardless of sexual preference.


If a couple wanted to get married so that they could legally be a family and adopt children, would that be unacceptable? Would you rather have children go from foster home to foster home all their lives or live in war torn countries, when they could have a chance at a new life with people who love them and would care and provide for them?
Yes, I would prefer to see a child in a loving home rather than foster home. In fact, I have very strong opinions on raising children. However, God made the laws, I didn't


You say that marriage is the sacred bond between a man and a woman...but if we are going to go on separation of church and state, there's nothing wrong with a civil union...it doesn't bother the church, so it shouldn't bother you because no one is asking you to do that, nor are homosexuals going and requesting to marry in your church
But the point is that God says it's wrong. As Christians we go by God's laws. If he says that marriage is a bond between a man and a woman (which he does), then as Christians, that is what we are to follow. Everyone is on Bush's case for not being, "politically correct", and agreeing with homosexual unions. But you what, he is upholding that which God has commanded. I don't care if what I say is not politically correct. Jesus was not politically correct either.

Also, wasn't it Jesus, when people were casting stones at the sinners, that he who has not sinned may cast the first stone (I don't know the exact quote...I remember stories not exact things...)...? So, regardless of whether or not the Bible says homosexuality is wrong or right...unless you have never sinned before in your life...I don't think you are in the exact possition to say things flat out about homosexuality...or whatever else...
Yes, but as Christians, we are upholding God's law. Jesus said not to cast the first stone. Stoning in punishment for sinning. We are not punishing, we just do not want to be part of what God does not allow. If homosexuals have the blessings of the state to get married, then the state can marry them. But as Christians, we are following God's law. God does not sanction the marriage between two persons of the same sex. Therefore, as his followers, neither do we.

[bandit28]

Nice cop out warrior, I'll make another topic when I finnish here.

But did God not create animals and then say, "Thou shalt not kill"? ...we still do though...also don't say that Jesus did it, so its ok...Jesus also died on the cross to save us from our sins...so unless you are willing to do that, do not say that you can do what Jesus does (and that was off Srila Prabhupada, paraphrased, don't want to take the credit for that one...)
Sorry, I know you tried, but that argument just doesn't float. As mentioned above, we have permission to eat animals. The 10 Commandments did in fact say thou shalt not kill.....meaning dont go off an kill someone for no reason(and I don't mean "oh he looked at me wrong so I have a reason to kill him"). So again, nice try.

If a couple wanted to get married so that they could legally be a family and adopt children, would that be unacceptable? Would you rather have children go from foster home to foster home all their lives or live in war torn countries, Yes, that would be unacceptable. Now you are confusing the hell out of the child and making the child wonder why he calls a man mommy or a woman daddy. Or even worse when the child begins to wonder where babies come from and then asks dad why mommy doesn't have a vagina, or why daddy doesn't have a penis....Do you want to confuse children? Further more, no, I don't want children to go to foster hom to another home and so on. I want them to go to a good family where the child will have a mother and a father. It's not like children aren't being adopted because there are no homosexual marriages to adopt them. I was adopted and a lot of other people I know were adopted. Adding married homosexuals into the mix won't create a big boost in the adoption rate. Adoption agiencies still look at the family and home involved, and as stated earlier, hopefully they would see how a homosexual family would just be bad for the child. Way to many weird questions to answer for the child.

Also, wasn't it Jesus, when people were casting stones at the sinners, that he who has not sinned may cast the first stone (I don't know the exact quote...I remember stories not exact things...)...? So, regardless of whether or not the Bible says homosexuality is wrong or right...unless you have never sinned before in your life...I don't think you are in the exact possition to say things flat out about homosexuality...or whatever else...
For the last time, we do not hate the sinners, just the sin. I think it would be a good idea from now on if you are going to attempt to use The Bible against us, at least read and learn what it is you are talkign about.

...we are not perfect beings...we try to improve ourselves...so we should worry about our own spirituality and achieving God realization, God consciousness...and not point fingers so much at others...
As perverse as this world is, next on the list will be some man wanting to mary his sheep or dog. Then a father will want to marry his daughter, or a mother to a son, or vise versa....Let's also think about the crap that would come about with same sex marriages. Imagine same sex marriages legal..now imagine to male roomates sharring an apartment. Both hetrosexual, both working, and both wanting better bennifits from work. So they decide to get married just simply to get a family health plan. Does that sound right? I will go ahead and say it so you or someone else doesn't later. No, it's not okay when male and female roomates do it either.

Christians are not homophobic. Just like you choose not to believe in God, we choose to believe in Him. Our morals and way of life come from His word. We do our best to live by His teachings daily. No we are not perfect, but we strive daily to live up to Jesus's example.

PS. Believe it or not, our country and our constitution was based of a Godly way of life. Our pledge is "One nation, under God" and on our money that we love so much says "In God we trust". Please people pick up a history book and relearn what was ment by seperation of church and state and where it came from!

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Nice cop out warrior, I'll make another topic when I finnish here.

Sorry, I know you tried, but that argument just doesn't float. As mentioned above, we have permission to eat animals. The 10 Commandments did in fact say thou shalt not kill.....meaning dont go off an kill someone for no reason(and I don't mean "oh he looked at me wrong so I have a reason to kill him"). So again, nice try.
First of all, where did it say that? Second of all, the ten commandments said "Thou Shalt Not Kill". It did not say, "Thou shalt not kill people...". Third of all, you would be surprised to know that the Bible has apparentely been misinterpretated over the years. Remember that in the Midieval (sp??) times that the church liked to control the people. For goodness sakes, there was soo much corruption. My point? When translated, the translators tend to put small twists on it. This isn't the only book however, the Bhagavad-Gita had also had that done over the years.


Yes, that would be unacceptable. Now you are confusing the hell out of the child and making the child wonder why he calls a man mommy or a woman daddy. Or even worse when the child begins to wonder where babies come from and then asks dad why mommy doesn't have a vagina, or why daddy doesn't have a penis....Do you want to confuse children? Further more, no, I don't want children to go to foster hom to another home and so on. I want them to go to a good family where the child will have a mother and a father. It's not like children aren't being adopted because there are no homosexual marriages to adopt them. I was adopted and a lot of other people I know were adopted. Adding married homosexuals into the mix won't create a big boost in the adoption rate. Adoption agiencies still look at the family and home involved, and as stated earlier, hopefully they would see how a homosexual family would just be bad for the child. Way to many weird questions to answer for the child.
That is the silliest thing I've ever heard! Love is love, it is beyond gender, age or race. That would be like saying that a white mother and a black father cannot adopt because the child would be too confused as to why his/her parents were not of the same skin tone. If two people are loving they should be allowed to adopt, regardless. If they weren't for that reason, alone, then that would be discrimination. Also, my friend Kevin has two mom's and he is one of the happiest people ever. My aunt's partener has grandchildren and they don't even notice....you cannot say that it will confuse a child or what not because you do not know....some of the happiest children have gay/lesbian parents.[/QUOTE]

For the last time, we do not hate the sinners, just the sin. I think it would be a good idea from now on if you are going to attempt to use The Bible against us, at least read and learn what it is you are talkign about.
I have read most of the Bible...I'm just not a direct quoter...I'm a paraphraser...always was...

Also, you changed the subject...it doesn't matter about loving the sinner or the sin...what I was talking about was that you really shouldn't say anything against it because surly you aren't without sin... be conserned with yourself and your spirituality first and formost....

As perverse as this world is, next on the list will be some man wanting to mary his sheep or dog. Then a father will want to marry his daughter, or a mother to a son, or vise versa....Let's also think about the crap that would come about with same sex marriages. Imagine same sex marriages legal..now imagine to male roomates sharring an apartment. Both hetrosexual, both working, and both wanting better bennifits from work. So they decide to get married just simply to get a family health plan. Does that sound right? I will go ahead and say it so you or someone else doesn't later. No, it's not okay when male and female roomates do it either.
Oh give me a break! Now you are def being rediculous. That would not happen....a dog is not a person and a child is a minor...furthermore those things have happened, mother/son, father/daughter...remember olden times and royalty...to keep the money in the family...Also, do remember that you cannot point corruption of the law in that way...regardless of whether or not there is homosexual marraiges, people do it anyway...you just even said that male and female roomates do it... Some people in this country live their whole lives on welfare because of laziness when there are others who need it more... no one is going to stop corruption of the system anytime soon (because it happens in our government too)...not while there is greed....so do not use that as an excuse...


Christians are not homophobic. Just like you choose not to believe in God, we choose to believe in Him. Our morals and way of life come from His word. We do our best to live by His teachings daily. No we are not perfect, but we strive daily to live up to Jesus's example.

PS. Believe it or not, our country and our constitution was based of a Godly way of life. Our pledge is "One nation, under God" and on our money that we love so much says "In God we trust". Please people pick up a history book and relearn what was ment by seperation of church and state and where it came from!
First of all, do not assume that I do not believe in God because I follow Vaisasism (Hare Krishna) as well as Christianity. For goodness sakes, it doesn't matter what name you call out, God is God, you just better be calling. Despite that...I, myself, do as best as I can and I respect that you do as well...but you need not judge others or how they do...it sounds selfish, but be conserned with your own spiritual being first...you are in charge of your own destiny...I'm sure you are not going to cast in to the fire-y pit if you don't jump up and down like a loony or whatever and try and make ammendments to out law gay marraige and abortion...you are not practicing these things...so do not worry so much if others do... You do not practice adultry, but others do and there is no law against that one...or greed and Lord knows there's a lot of that...and there are Commandments on those two......

So from now on just worry about your spirituality and finding your own way back home to God.....

[bandit28]

I'll keep it short. Isn't kinda dumb for you to tell me to "So from now on just worry about your spirituality and finding your own way back home to God....." when you in fact are telling me what to do or believe? Funny. I have to go right now, so I'll post more on the rest of your reply later.

[xdianax]

Wow. It was interesting to read all of the comments since I last posted. It really seems like no one looked at my links, or if they did then they disreguarded them, because no one has mentioned them or taken them into account.

From the sites:
(referring to Sodom and Gomorrah)...Looking at the scriptures in Hebrew, we find an interesting usage of a couple of different words. When the mob cries out "Where are the men who came in to you tonight?", the Hebrew word translated men is 'enowsh which, literally translated, means "mortal".

http://www.gayxjw.org/enowsh.jpg

This indicates that the mob knew that Lot had visitors, but were unsure of what sex they were. The Hebrew word for "man" (utilized in this same passage in Genesis 19:8) is entirely different.

http://www.gayxjw.org/iysh.jpg

One has to ask: Why would homosexuals want to have sex with two strangers if they were unsure of what sex they were?
The passage translated as "Bring them out so that we may have intercourse with them" needs further examination as well. Other Bible translations read "so that we may know them". The Hebrew word herewith translated as "have intercourse", or "know" is yada.

http://www.gayxjw.org/yada.jpg

This word, yada, appears in the Hebrew Scriptures a total of 943 times. In all but ten of these usages, the word is used in the context of getting acquainted with someone. Had the writer intended for his reading audience to believe that the mob wanted to have sexual intercourse with the strangers, he would have used the Hebrew word shakab, which vividly denotes sexual activity.

http://www.gayxjw.org/shakab.jpg

The correct translation, therefore, should be rendered something to the effect of: "Where are the mortals who came in to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may get acquainted with them."
So then, if the story of Sodom & Gomorrah was not a condemnation of homosexuality, what was it trying to convey? Two verses elsewhere in the Bible sum up the story this way: "Look! This is what proved to be the error of Sodom your sister: Pride, sufficiency of bread and the carefreeness of keeping undisturbed were what happened to belong to her and her dependent towns, and the hand of the afflicted one and the poor one she did not strengthen. And they continued to be haughty and to carry on a detestable thing before me, and I finally removed them, just as I saw [fit]" - Ezekiel 16: 49, 50. It is commonly assumed that the "detestable thing" referred to in this passage is homosexuality. In fact, the Hebrew word utilized here is tow'ebah, which translated literally means "to commit idol worship".

http://www.gayxjw.org/towebah.jpg

This can be seen in the original Genesis passage, chapter 19, verse 8: "Please, here I have two daughters who have never had intercourse with a man. Please let me bring them out to you. Then do to them as is good in your eyes." One must ask: If Lot's house was surrounded by homosexuals, why would he offer the mob women? Note that these women were virgins. Note also that the Sodomites were pagans. Virgin sacrifices to idols were a common practice Sodom. Therefore, it can be concluded that Lot was offering his daughters as a virgin sacrifice to appease the mob in an effort to protect the visitors.
In the Greek scriptures, the story of Sodom is summed up this way: "and by reducing the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them, setting a pattern for ungodly persons of things to come". This corroborates Ezekiel's summation, once again showing that these were "ungodly persons", in other words, idolaters, not worshippers of the true God.

The story of Sodom and Gomorrah, therefore, is a condemnation of idol worshippers, a greedy and inhospitable society. The judgement of this region had nothing, absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality!

This is one example from the first site, and i won't post any more because I don't want to waste space making an even longer post. But anyway, before you continue insisting that this is God's law, please check out the sites:

http://www.gayxjw.org/bible.html
http://www.geocities.com/ninure/bible.html

:) Namaste,

Diana

[xdianax]

God created man and woman. Sexually, beyond man and woman, is not of God. No where does God approve of homosexuals; nowhere does satan disapprove of them.

God created yeast, he didn't intend for people to make beer, get drunk and then drive. God created tobacco plants, but he didn't intend for us to invent cigarettes and cause people to die. Warrior is right, if God intended people of the same sex to be together, then it would have been made mention of in the Bible. Instead, the Bible says that it's wrong. Using the, "God created", theory may sound nice, but it's not true.

...So, in your belief, a homosexual who follows the teachings of the bible and of Christian will still not be approved by God, purely because of his sexual orientation?

How exactly do you know that God created all these things but he did intend for people to do such things with them? If God is all powerful, all knowing, omnipotent...how is it that you know he did not see any of these things coming? Anyway, putting that aside, Epiphany :( I would have thought that you would've read the sites I posted, which clearly show that the Bible doesn't necessarily say that it's wrong.

:) Namaste,

Diana


P.S. Also, Christians who are against homosexuality often mention these few instances in the bible; however the truth is even if some consider it mentioned, it was barely mentioned, and doesn't seem to be that big of a sin. One of the ten commandments is "Thou shall not covet anything of thy neighbor's" but people want others stuff ALL THE TIME! I think we should make a bigger deal of jealousy, its one of the ten commandments! Don't waste time dwelling on homosexuality, God wants you to love everyone.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

:) Diana! Very well put...and I will definetely look at those links (evenetually...)


To bandit28....you know what? Nevermind...its not really worth it to sit and argue with you when both of us no that neither of us will really change our minds....I said what I had to say...and you said yours...so that's pretty much it...I'm back to lurkdom for now...

[shoelaceknots]

Here's something i find kind of interesting

So, Lust is a SIN.....right?

Homosexuality is a SIN........okay you're still with me....good!

Then WHY is Lust not ILLEGAL? Why is LUST not frowned upon like homosexuality? WHY do people get BASHED for being GAY...why do people get judged because they're homosexuals, why do people show discrimination towards homosexuals, but people DONT get bashed for Lust, and they DONT get judged because of lust?

Everyone sins, no matter if they're religious or not.........
Once again i forgot what i was going to be saying next.....Until next time, folks!!!..

[abbadabba]

Hey warrior, show where it says in The Bible to hate Jews and other races? You are the one who is mixed up. I agree homosexuality is wrong, even if someone tries to use non biblical reasoning, man and woman are not created to love same sex in the way that a man and woman are ment to love each other. Tell ya what warrior, sit down and have a serious prayer session with God. Ask Him about racism, if you get the answer that it is ok, you are praying to yourself, and God isn't involved.
You're just as bad. Don't think that you can hate gays just because it's socially acceptable, whereas racism isn't. You're a hypocrite.

You say that it's wrong even using "non-biblical reasoning," and then in the very same sentence you tell us what you think men and women were "meant" to do.

[abbadabba]

Yes, that would be unacceptable. Now you are confusing the hell out of the child and making the child wonder why he calls a man mommy or a woman daddy. Or even worse when the child begins to wonder where babies come from and then asks dad why mommy doesn't have a vagina, or why daddy doesn't have a penis....Do you want to confuse children?
This is just plain stupid. Just because YOU would be embarassed to talk to your kids about sex doesn't mean that everyone would be. It's only "confusing" until the parent explains it to the child...just like in any other household. Furthermore, a few "confusing questions" is NOT a legitimate reason to prevent someone from adopting a child.

Further more, no, I don't want children to go to foster hom to another home and so on. I want them to go to a good family where the child will have a mother and a father.
Good luck. And while you're at it, I'd like a million dollars and peace on earth, please.


It's not like children aren't being adopted because there are no homosexual marriages to adopt them. I was adopted and a lot of other people I know were adopted. Adding married homosexuals into the mix won't create a big boost in the adoption rate.
Just because you and a couple of your buddies were among the fortunate ones who got adopted doesn't mean EVERYONE is. Stop being selfish and look at the bigger picture. There are lots of kids out there who need homes or who need non-abusive homes.

For the last time, we do not hate the sinners, just the sin.
And for the last time, that is a ridiculous cop-out used by homophobes such as yourself and Warrior (and don't even pretend to be better than he is just because you hate a few less minorities). You obviously DO hate the sinner. If you didn't, you wouldn't be trying to deny adoption rights to homosexuals unless you also wanted to deny adoption rights to every single person in the world who sinned (which by my count is...umm...everyone)

As perverse as this world is, next on the list will be some man wanting to mary his sheep or dog. Then a father will want to marry his daughter, or a mother to a son, or vise versa.

I fail to see how this would come about as a result of gay marriage...Legalization of interracial marriages didn't bring about those things.

Let's also think about the crap that would come about with same sex marriages. Imagine same sex marriages legal..now imagine to male roomates sharring an apartment. Both hetrosexual, both working, and both wanting better bennifits from work. So they decide to get married just simply to get a family health plan. Does that sound right? I will go ahead and say it so you or someone else doesn't later. No, it's not okay when male and female roomates do it either.
Since you acknowledge that male/female roommates can do that too, doesn't that clue you in to the fact that the problem is with those health benefits plans and not with gay marriage? Doesn't it also clue you in to the fact that this argument, and every other argument you have made, is completely irrational?

Christians are not homophobic. Just like you choose not to believe in God, we choose to believe in Him. Our morals and way of life come from His word. We do our best to live by His teachings daily. No we are not perfect, but we strive daily to live up to Jesus's example.
No. You don't. You don't even try. Do you honestly think that Jesus would even be CONCERNED about gay marriage, with all the other problems in the world today? He never once mentioned homosexuality when he was alive.

Believe it or not, our country and our constitution was based of a Godly way of life. Our pledge is "One nation, under God" and on our money that we love so much says "In God we trust". Please people pick up a history book and relearn what was ment by seperation of church and state and where it came from!
That's a separate debate. Denying people their basic civil rights and making a few public references to God are not even CLOSE to being the same issue.

[bandit28]

Then WHY is Lust not ILLEGAL? Why is LUST not frowned upon like homosexuality? Well , let me inform you, lust is wrong as well. It is frowned upon. However, I don't think we humans have a way of controling and policing what someone is thinking. So, to clear things up, lust is wrong, but can't be stoped. Please, find something else to argue with.

You're just as bad. Don't think that you can hate gays just because it's socially acceptable, whereas racism isn't. You're a hypocrite.
I never said I hate happy people. But back to the subject, I never said I hate homosexuals. You can type till your fingers fall off, but I will not sway from The Word. Homosexuality is wrong. I have given non-biblical evidence and biblical evidence. You can keep on typing all you want, it is useless.

[abbadabba]

I never said I hate happy people. But back to the subject, I never said I hate homosexuals. You can type till your fingers fall off, but I will not sway from The Word. Homosexuality is wrong. I have given non-biblical evidence and biblical evidence. You can keep on typing all you want, it is useless.
You have NOT given ANY non-biblical evidence. Telling me what you think people were "meant" to do, with no explanation whatsoever, is NOT evidence.

Furthermore, even your biblical evidence is shaky at best. Jesus didn't go around condemning homosexuals. If you actually tried to emulate Jesus, you'd learn to love thy neighbor, and to not try to get the speck out of his eye when you have a log in your own.

Basing a campaign of hate (yes, that's what it is) on your religion is probably the most blasphemous thing you can do.

[Epiphany]

This is just plain stupid. Just because YOU would be embarassed to talk to your kids about sex doesn't mean that everyone would be. It's only "confusing" until the parent explains it to the child...just like in any other household. What he said has nothing to do with being embarassed. Life is created between a man and a woman. Sorry, but that is what the Bible says and we don't want to confuse our children when they see two members of the same sex together and question how and why.


Just because you and a couple of your buddies were among the fortunate ones who got adopted doesn't mean EVERYONE is. Stop being selfish and look at the bigger picture. There are lots of kids out there who need homes or who need non-abusive homes.The point he was making was that adoption really had nothing to do with homosexual marriages. Just because gay couples are getting married, doesn't mean that everyone is going to make a mad dash to their local adoption agency. Most couples have a surrogate mother or father picked out already.


And for the last time, that is a ridiculous cop-out used by homophobes such as yourself and Warrior (and don't even pretend to be better than he is just because you hate a few less minorities). You obviously DO hate the sinner. If you didn't, you wouldn't be trying to deny adoption rights to homosexuals unless you also wanted to deny adoption rights to every single person in the world who sinned (which by my count is...umm...everyone)Actually, I tend to think that most people in this world, gay or straight, don't make good parents. Most people are not emotionally, mentally, or financially ready (doesn't mean they have to have a high paying job, just means they should one) to have children. Their own destructive patterns (alcohol, drug, sexual abuse) reflect in their children and the cycle continues. Most people don't understand how much of an impact the things they say and do has on their kids. That is from a psychological point of view, not a Christian one. From a Christian point of view, I have to agree. It's pointed out clearly in the Bible. God created man. Then God created women. Together they created life.


I fail to see how this would come about as a result of gay marriage...Legalization of interracial marriages didn't bring about those things.What does interracial marriage have to do with anything? That has no signifigance in this conversation being that it's not a sin. Nowadays it's okay for women to get pregnant and then kill their unborn children. It's acceptable to have sexual intercourse before marriage. It's okay to have sex with mutiple partners. It's acceptable to walk around dressed like a hooker. So, let's add same sex marriages into the pot. Why not.... I guess we just don't have enough sin.



No. You don't. You don't even try. Do you honestly think that Jesus would even be CONCERNED about gay marriage, with all the other problems in the world today? He never once mentioned homosexuality when he was alive.Apparently, you are not grasping the point. Did Jesus physically speak about every single topic known to man? NO, that is what the Bible is for. God gave us the entire Bible to learn from. The Bible speaks of homosexuality taking place 2,000 years before it was trying to dominate the earth. Jesus is God in the flesh, it's spoken in the Bible. Therefore, Jesus said it. Yes, every sin is important in God's eyes.

[abbadabba]

What he said has nothing to do with being embarassed. Life is created between a man and a woman. Sorry, but that is what the Bible says and we don't want to confuse our children when they see two members of the same sex together and question how and why. Umm, sorry to put this so bluntly: When it comes to adoption, marriage, and other civil issues, WHO THE FUCK CARES WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS? Not every single person in this country is a Christian, and even less are intolerant, homophobic Fallwell Christians. If you want to argue that homosexuality is wrong, fine, I'll listen to your biblical arguments and shoot them down one at a time. If you want to argue that homosexuals should not be allowed to marry or adopt, you better have some good SECULAR arguments, something better than "Duhhh....Jeebus sez it's wrong lol". (Yes, people are probably pissed off now. So am I. Tough shit.)


The point he was making was that adoption really had nothing to do with homosexual marriages. Just because gay couples are getting married, doesn't mean that everyone is going to make a mad dash to their local adoption agency. Most couples have a surrogate mother or father picked out already. Whatever the effect on the adoption rate, it doesn't change the fact that gays should have the RIGHT to adopt if they so desire.


Actually, I tend to think that most people in this world, gay or straight, don't make good parents. Most people are not emotionally, mentally, or financially ready (doesn't mean they have to have a high paying job, just means they should one) to have children. Their own destructive patterns (alcohol, drug, sexual abuse) reflect in their children and the cycle continues. Most people don't understand how much of an impact the things they say and do has on their kids. That is from a psychological point of view, not a Christian one. And you don't think that alcohol/drug/sexual abuse are bigger problems than gay people wanting to adopt a child? Even if you believe that most people don't make good parents (which I don't completely disagree with), certainly you recognize that there are varying degrees of incompetence. Ask yourself this: If you had the chance to take a child out of an abusive home and place him/her with loving parents who happened to be of the same sex, would you really not do it? What would you tell the child?

What does interracial marriage have to do with anything? That has no signifigance in this conversation being that it's not a sin. The gospel according to you. Tell that to a 1950s Alabaman. Oh I forgot, they were wrong and you're right about everything.

Twenty years from now, homophobia will (hopefully) have moved out of the realm of social acceptance...I wonder who you conservative evangelists will turn your rage on then. Maybe hating Jews will be fashionable again!

Nowadays it's okay for women to get pregnant and then kill their unborn children. It's acceptable to have sexual intercourse before marriage. It's okay to have sex with mutiple partners. It's acceptable to walk around dressed like a hooker. So, let's add same sex marriages into the pot. Why not.... I guess we just don't have enough sin.
What does that have to do with gay marriage? Even if, for some strange reason, you still believe that homosexuality is wrong after I've completely hosed every irrational argument you've posed, what makes same-sex marriage wrong? I see a few vague references to homosexual sex acts in the Bible, but nothing at all about homosexual marriage being wrong.


Apparently, you are not grasping the point. Did Jesus physically speak about every single topic known to man? NO, that is what the Bible is for. God gave us the entire Bible to learn from. The Bible speaks of homosexuality taking place 2,000 years before it was trying to dominate the earth. Jesus is God in the flesh, it's spoken in the Bible. Therefore, Jesus said it. Yes, every sin is important in God's eyes.No person who is actually EDUCATED in theology or even literature seriously considers Jesus and the Old Testament God to be EXACTLY THE SAME ENTITY. Their personalities are completely different. Are you telling me Jesus would have advised people to rain down fire and brimstone on cities, if he only had more time to speak to the world about other issues?

[Epiphany]

Umm, sorry to put this so bluntly: When it comes to adoption, marriage, and other civil issues, WHO THE FUCK CARES WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS? Not every single person in this country is a Christian, and even less are intolerant, homophobic Fallwell Christians. If you want to argue that homosexuality is wrong, fine, I'll listen to your biblical arguments and shoot them down one at a time. If you want to argue that homosexuals should not be allowed to marry or adopt, you better have some good SECULAR arguments, something better than "Duhhh....Jeebus sez it's wrong lol". (Yes, people are probably pissed off now. So am I. Tough shit.)Apparently you care, considering the fact that you keep this debate going. After all, you did start the thread. If you are tired of hearing comments from Christians, then why do you continue to post? Honestly...you made a post about Christians, did you not expect us to reply with scripture? Actually, no, I'm not really pissed off.

The gospel according to you. Tell that to a 1950s Alabaman. Oh I forgot, they were wrong and you're right about everything. Actually, it's the gosepl according to the Bible. If the 1950's Alabaman baptists were true Christians, they would have loved their neighbors as themselves as the word of God taught. Not persecute one another over the color of skin. I know quite a few old school southern baptists. Three of them have kicked their own children out of their homes at the age of sixteen. Where in the Bible does it say that? Some white supremecy groups believe in God, but they are racist. There is a difference between knowing of Christ and following him.

Twenty years from now, homophobia will (hopefully) have moved out of the realm of social acceptance...I wonder who you conservative evangelists will turn your rage on then. Maybe hating Jews will be fashionable again!I don't know any Christians who hate Jews. I know of people who believe they are Christians who hate jews, but I don't know of any actual Christians who hate.

What does that have to do with gay marriage? Even if, for some strange reason, you still believe that homosexuality is wrong after I've completely hosed every irrational argument you've posed, what makes same-sex marriage wrong?Hmmm.... you verses the word of God. Sorry, you lose on that one. Irrational only to non-believers. It makes sense to us.


I see a few vague references to homosexual sex acts in the Bible, but nothing at all about homosexual marriage being wrong.
Do those in homosexual marriages not have sex now? Because that is what you said. They have sex, homosexual sex is wrong.

No person who is actually EDUCATED in theology or even literature seriously considers Jesus and the Old Testament God to be EXACTLY THE SAME ENTITY. Their personalities are completely different. Are you telling me Jesus would have advised people to rain down fire and brimstone on cities, if he only had more time to speak to the world about other issues?Actually yes.... many people argue it, but it's true. Alot of false Christianity is being spread around. It's sad how many false prophets rise up and teach others things that do not coincide with the word of God. God is Jesus, Jesus is God. People can possess all sorts of special degrees and merits in Theology, but if you don't have a relationship with the Lord and your not filled with the holy spirit, then your wisdom doesn't prove much. Wisdom comes from God, not man. Anyone can quote scripture, but not everyone knows what it is saying. The Bible says that many praise the Lord with their lips, but do not know him with their hearts.

People to rain down fire and brimstone on cities? Um, where does it say people? It says God rained down fire and brimstone. Jesus said in Luke 12:51: "Do you think I have come to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division."

[bandit28]

Epiphany you rock. You and campbell. You know who I am right? Well I am not going to say it because I don't want to disapear again. But anyways, I think you pretty much said what needed to be said. He is a blind sinner and will not understand until he opens his heart.

You know, I have always liked this one:

In the begining, God created Adam and Eve......not Adam and Steve!

[Epiphany]

Epiphany you rock. You and campbell. You know who I am right?
You too hun! but um, honestly, I don't have a clue. You could pm me and tell me who you are. Now I feel bad that I don't know :(

[Casey]

I am going to get shot down in flames here. But I am a great believer in a balanced argument and showing the facts as they are. The Bible clearly states that homosexuality is wrong and is a sin. Genesis 19 states this nicely. If anybody knows the story of Sodom and Gomorrah will know what happened.

Yes i do know the story and it referees to male temple prostitution/orgies and not a loving relationship between two faithful partners.

Guess what happened to those two cities.

Uh...they were destroyed by God because they were promiscuous.



Call me old fasioned but the Bible also states that sex outside the context of marrage is also a sin. All sin carries the same weight in God's eyes. But the Bible also states that we must love the sinner but hate the sin. Sex is inbuilt in to us. But we do not have to act on these desires. The trouble with homosexuality it is about self worship. It is written all over the Bible that you should not worship anything else other than God. But if you love the lord but are homosexually inclined you are probably better of giving your services to the Lord. Celebacy is are hard thing to do sometimes.
Matt
Being as Homosexuals can do nothing about being homosexual do you not think it’s a little obscene to love a God that has already condemned you before you were even born? If giving my services to the Lord involve pushing my views on other people or condemning things i know nothing about to the point when people get hurt then I’ll take my chances with the fiery pits of hell thanks. I dont see it as self worship and just for the record i worship lots of things in life. These things are all made by God therefore in a way i'm worshiping God's creations and by doing do I guess i'm worshiping God.

[Casey]

So father-less children, teen pregnancies, and an outbreak of sexual disease is progress? This goes back to God cursing Babylon, and Sodom and Gomorrah for their sexually immorality. I'm glad the Puritans viewed sex the way they did. Of Course, nowadays, wearing a big red letter on your chest would be the, "cool", thing to do. "How many red A's can you get sewn on?". But back to the point, God said that homosexuality was wrong, and that is why us Christians are against the notion.

No actually without the openness to educate and talk about sex how many young people would now be infertile because of disease? How many people would have died due to an STD without the ability to use condoms (another thing that the church doesn’t agree with) Sexual disease was around long before we could openly communicate about sex and one of the worst hit areas is Africa where homosexuality is not acceptable and most people are married. Aids is riff in this area and people are still not willing to communicate about sex or more importantly safe sex. I'm not glad the puritans had this view about sex i feel if you’re mature enough to have sex then your mature enough to discuss sex. God never actually mentioned the word homosexual that word was only 'translated' into the bible in the 1920's. No biblical word for homosexual ever actually existed. Know your facts before you judge.

[Casey]

[QUOTE=Bree] Gay women on the other hand, are the completely opposite, in my experience they have been very bitchy and mean. Not sure why the trend seems to be this way, but it is.

Sweeping generalisation and contradicts most of your post. Almost makes me want to fit into your stereotype. Maybe it’s the way you yourself come across that makes people react to you in a certain way. I don’t know you, but that flippant statement has made me very wary of the type of person you really are.

[Casey]

[QUOTE=cellotux]Homosexuality, along with other forms of sexual immorality, is partially responsible for the present AIDS epidemic in the world. This is hardly up for debate, and it is a very serious problem. Sexual Immorality = Death. Just look at Africa if you don't believe it. Those of us who condemn this vigorously are doing so because we care about the continued existence of our civilization - not out of so-called "homophobia." Homophobic is just a stupid psycho-babble term that doesn't describe any real human condition. Besides it is an ignorant word.

Homosexuality is nothing to do with the AIDS epidemic, having unprotected sex is the big factor, and drugs are another. It was brought about by the transportation of livestock and not the transportation of gay men. It might interest you to know that i am actually in a lower risk category than you are in terms of catching AIDS. Although we may both be in faithful relationships if your partner had an affair or mine did, you would be a greater risk than i would. You should educate yourself in these matters as i find it very distressing that someone is so naive and ignorant in this day and age.

[bandit28]

Being as Homosexuals can do nothing about being homosexual

You make the decision to be homosexual. You aren't born with it. Just like you learn to be an angry person. You aren't born angry. You aren't born homosexual. Homosexuality is a perversion even when you look at it outside of The Bible. How are babies made? Certainly a baby can not come from a man sticking his penis into another mans anus. Nor can a baby be produced by two women rubbing their vaginas together. If we look at nature, we will see some species were made to reproduce asexualy, meaning they can produce on their own. Other creatures have the ability to change sexes to reproduce. Sorry, but we don't fit that criteria. Even if you want to look at it from a belief that we evolved from something like an omeba or something, we didn't evolve into something ment to be with the same sex. Homosexuality is a perversion. You can't argue this. What you can argue is the fact that it's what you want to do, and it is what feels good to you and you don't want anyone telling you it's wrong. It's ok though, I understand this sin, in one way or another we have more than likely all felt this way about something. Reguardless, when you sit down and think about the main function of a penis, if you see it as something used for pleasure inside of another man, you aren't thinking straight(no pun intended).

[Casey]

I have to laugh. All of the forums I go to and have been to there is usually a section for Christians. Sadly 90+% of the threads are started by people who are not Christians.

Why is that sad? Are you so far up your own spiritual arse that you are now too good to talk to the rest of society? What a good Christian you must be, insinuating that you close your doors to anyone who is not the same as you. Maybe not good just rather predictable. Or maybe the percentage just reflects that for every 90% of us that aren’t Christian there are 10% percent of you who are.

This makes me wonder: A) How secure are they in thier own beliefs,

Some of us dont hold befiefs that harm others.

B) Why are non-Christians so obcessed with Christians? Why did the starter of this thread think that they should call Christians to the carpet for thier religious beliefs? Why should the beliefs of Christians offend non-Christians?

Because i happen to care about issues that effect me. It offends me because you are clutching onto vague references in order to devalue my 'lifestyle'. It bothers me because while you lot claim to love people not a single one of you have attempted to find out anything to love about any of the posters that disagree with you. Quite simply you don’t care who we are or what kind of people we are. It offends me because i know that i am discriminated against not for my beliefs but for what i am, what God made me. It offends me because you know nothing about my relationship and yet you blindly hold onto your prejudice that my relationship is any less of value than your own. It offends me that have to ask why it offends me. Aside from anything else God made me just like he made you and by offending me, especially while knowing nothing about me, you are offending your own God as well.

I wonder, why is there so much hatred towards Christians? I don't see these same people challengeing Jewish beliefs or Islamic beliefs. Why is this, non-Christians? Is it that you are programed to hate Christians and accept all others? You are a strange breed of people. You are anti-God as long as the word Christian is attached.
Open your eyes. This is because for generations Christians have outcast other groups from societies, divided families and caused wars. It’s a stunning assumption that all non-Christians are anti god. Maybe just anti suppression.

[Casey]

abbadabba: I do not mean to, but do not care if I do, insult you. You say this:
"If conservative Jewish beliefs or Islamic beliefs dominated my society (the United States), I'm sure I'd take issue with their homophobic positions more frequently. But they don't, so I don't think it's unfair to argue against homophobia from the Christian perspective."
And this shows me that you do not know who is controling your "society", ("your" being an abstact word here as it is not "your" society. Some say it is "our society").
Let me ask you this: What is YOUR obsession with homosexuallity? Bluntly, you say that Christians should not be concerned with men shoving thier dicks up the hairy shitholes of other men. Why not? It is our religious and moral beliefs that men do not ass fuck men; they do not suck peckers; they do not marry. These things in our eyes, and in the eyes of our God are WRONG. Should we approve them then we are saying to our GOD that we love the things and the acts of this world above Him.


You’re presuming (again) that all gay men have anal sex on a regular basis. In recent polls it was around 8%. They do not marry because people like you vote against it. What about lesbians? Sorry what was your point again? Oh yeah gay sex is wrong. Not to worry i'm sure there is no room up your own hairy shitter on account of your own head being there.




Your post was one of the most hateful things i have ever had the displeasure to read and i don’t actually believe you are a Christian i think your faking it to rile the argument and bring fellow decent Christians down to your level.


"I'm not calling them on their religious beliefs. I'm calling them on the fact that they're discriminatory attitude toward homosexuals is bad for society." - More from you.
Show, don't discrimatorialy dictate, how opposition to homosexuality is "bad for society".
Every forum, on every site has an individual like you; One who has no origanal thought, but sees Christians as easy marks to pick on. WELL, HELLO, and ABRACADABRA - I am not your usual "Christian"! I am like the Jesus who took a whip to the money changers in the Temples: I am here to kick some ass! You want to curse or argue against MY GOD, and MY SAVIOR? Then find a way to come through me. Curse my God and I promise you HIS wrath! Pray to your Buddah or whomever you want to, but let me assure you, when you offend the only GOD, then you wreck havoc upon your own soul!
Be sweet and gentle unto your faggot brethern, but always remember the doubt and the guilt you feel does not come from your conscionce, but from your soul.



I rest my case. I think you are displaying more satanic beliefs.

[Epiphany]

No actually without the openness to educate and talk about sex how many young people would now be infertile because of disease? How many people would have died due to an STD without the ability to use condoms (another thing that the church doesn’t agree with) Sexual disease was around long before we could openly communicate about sex and one of the worst hit areas is Africa where homosexuality is not acceptable and most people are married. Aids is riff in this area and people are still not willing to communicate about sex or more importantly safe sex. I'm not glad the puritans had this view about sex i feel if you’re mature enough to have sex then your mature enough to discuss sex. God never actually mentioned the word homosexual that word was only 'translated' into the bible in the 1920's. No biblical word for homosexual ever actually existed. Know your facts before you judge.
Kind of plays into adultery and sex before marriage. Yes, people should be educated about sex. But I hate to tell you that honestly, there is no such thing as safe sex. The only known method for not contracting the virus is to not have sex with someone you don't know. The most surefire way to not contract aids would be to not have sex until your married. Hence, why the church doesn't believe in condoms. But since not everyone is Christian, people have unmarried sex, and multiple partners (whom they hardly know most of the time), then aids will continue to spread. It's funny to me when people say that those who catch aids are misinformed. Since parents are too busy nowadays to actually sit and have a conversation with their children, then it's up to them to rely on other sources. There are countless public service announcements on on tv, we have sex education in school. It's virtually impossible for your typical teenager not to hear about how aids is spread.

No, 2,000 years ago the word homosexual was not used in the Bible. However, as clearly stated throughout this thread, there is mention of the act of sex between two persons of the same sex as a sin.

There are over 52 curses mentioned in the book of Deuteronomy. One of them is disease. Aids is a disease. One of the reasons God wiped out Sodom and Gomorrah was due to sexual immortality. 1 Corinthians 6:18 says, "Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body."

[Casey]

[/color]

You make the decision to be homosexual. You aren't born with it. Just like you learn to be an angry person. You aren't born angry. You aren't born homosexual.

There is in fact evidence to support the fact that homosexuality is effective before birth. Now i know you may not approve of a long drawn out explanation especially if it involves science but if anyone would like me to support this by quoting from a book other than the bible then i am more than willing to do so. Maybe you are unaware of study's proving that there is a defined difference between the brains of homosexual males and heterosexual males, just as one quick example. The thing is I’m not actually angry at all I’m merely joining in a discussion. If you have taken my contribution as angry i do apologise, i didn't realise you were such an overly sensitive person.

Homosexuality is a perversion even when you look at it outside of The Bible. How are babies made? Certainly a baby can not come from a man sticking his penis into another mans anus.

I didn't say anything about reproduction but seen as you brought it up i had noticed your keen enthusiasm to graphically detail a homosexual act. Perhaps you’re the one more interested in the act of sex as opposed to the loving relationship it evolves within. It sounds to me like you are trying to justify your own views by wording your post in a vulgar manner. A baby can come from many means nowadays; we are not limited to heterosexual sex in order to become parents. Its a possibility that homosexuality is a natural solution to the worlds over population problems. What about intersexuals? The sex in these people cannot be defined.

Nor can a baby be produced by two women rubbing their vaginas together.

It took me a while to respond to this bit of your post as its difficult to type while laughing so hard. I do hope you're less ignorant than you make out.


If we look at nature, we will see some species were made to reproduce asexualy, meaning they can produce on their own. Other creatures have the ability to change sexes to reproduce. Sorry, but we don't fit that criteria. Even if you want to look at it from a belief that we evolved from something like an omeba or something, we didn't evolve into something ment to be with the same sex. Homosexuality is a perversion. You can't argue this.

Science points to genetic and hormonal factors in this issue. Like it or not. The fact is it just grosses you out, nothing more nothing less. Perversion: a strange sexual act.

Actually its very commonplace and widespread making it quite normal and also natural to those who practice it.



What you can argue is the fact that it's what you want to do, and it is what feels good to you and you don't want anyone telling you it's wrong.

and what is natural for me to do and what is right for me to do, I dont really mind people telling me its wrong because i put this down to the fact that you are not homosexual (although with your obsession with homosexual sex this may be up for debate) and therefore you cannot possibly hope to know if a homosexual was or wasn't born this way.

It's ok though, I understand this sin, in one way or another we have more than likely all felt this way about something. Reguardless, when you sit down and think about the main function of a penis, if you see it as something used for pleasure inside of another man, you aren't thinking straight(no pun intended).
actually i see it as an organ, with a sexual function that can be used for pleasure in a loving relationship when it hightens bonding between two people who are in love, or to reproduce. I understand your ignorance and if you have any questions regarding homosexuality i would be happy to answer them.

[Casey]

Kind of plays into adultery and sex before marriage. Yes, people should be educated about sex. But I hate to tell you that honestly, there is no such thing as safe sex. The only known method for not contracting the virus is to not have sex with someone you don't know.

Yes i do agree no form of contraception is 100% safe, however, surely if people insist on having sex its better to be 98% safe than not safe at all. Unfortunately even having sex with someone you do know can cause problems. Think of the amount of married people who have affairs and their partners very rarely find out about them. People can be quite unpredictable so even marriage is not 100% safe from diseases.


The most surefire way to not contract aids would be to not have sex until your married. Hence, why the church doesn't believe in condoms. But since not everyone is Christian, people have unmarried sex, and multiple partners (whom they hardly know most of the time), then aids will continue to spread. It's funny to me when people say that those who catch aids are misinformed. Since parents are too busy nowadays to actually sit and have a conversation with their children, then it's up to them to rely on other sources. There are countless public service announcements on on tv, we have sex education in school. It's virtually impossible for your typical teenager not to hear about how aids is spread.

I do agree but 10 or 20 years ago we didn't have this education available to us. This was the point i was making. When i was at school (which wasn't all that long ago) we got diagrams of sex and that was about it. They never taught us anything about AIDS. What i learned when i was at school i learned through a magazine and due to the information it provided most of the girls at my school were banned from reading it. The same girls banned from reading it were the same girls who had abortions a few months later thinking they couldn't get pregnant the first time or whatever, or have 10yr old kids now to all different fathers. I'm glad all this information is now more widely available to people. I do think my generation has been allowed to talk and find out more about sex.

No, 2,000 years ago the word homosexual was not used in the Bible. However, as clearly stated throughout this thread, there is mention of the act of sex between two persons of the same sex as a sin.

There is a vague reference to 'lying down'. I just don’t think the loose references in the bible are enough to justify the prejudice it helps to generate.

There are over 52 curses mentioned in the book of Deuteronomy. One of them is disease. Aids is a disease. One of the reasons God wiped out Sodom and Gomorrah was due to sexual immortality. 1 Corinthians 6:18 says, "Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body."

AIDS was not caused by homosexual people and a lot of factors contributed to its spread, including blood transfusions. Meningitis is a disease as well but we have focused on AIDS because homosexual men are still being blamed as the only casualties of that disease. Please realise that rape played a huge part in the Sodom story and we are still talking about consensual sex between two adults in a loving relationship. I do find it offensive that its even used as a comparison in our debate, even more so because it highlights to me that we are still talking about very different things instead of debating the same thing.

[Casey]

May i ask a few general questions? This is just so as I can see why everyone feels the way they do about this and to get to know what everyone’s about a bit better.



Why do some of you think that i have chosen to be gay?

Why is it hard to believe when i explain that i have not chosen to be gay? Is it that you think that I’m misguided? Lying to myself? Lying to you? Trying to justify what i do? After all i believe you when you claim to be naturally heterosexual so I’m very curious to know why this doesn’t work the other way around.





As i am gay and you aren’t lets just say for arguments sake that i really can't help being gay. As this would mean that God had created me this way:



Would it then still be unacceptable for me to be in a loving sexual relationship with another woman?

Would you still think it was more acceptable for me to have a life of celibacy and solitude even although i would be happier and it would be more mentally healthy to be in a loving relationship?

Why would God create me in this way if he wished for me to remain alone while others have the pleasure of a lasting relationship?



If God see's us all as equal then why the emphasis on genitals? Are we not arguing over a few inches of skin?

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

May i ask a few general questions? This is just so as I can see why everyone feels the way they do about this and to get to know what everyone’s about a bit better.



Why do some of you think that i have chosen to be gay?

Why is it hard to believe when i explain that i have not chosen to be gay? Is it that you think that I’m misguided? Lying to myself? Lying to you? Trying to justify what i do? After all i believe you when you claim to be naturally heterosexual so I’m very curious to know why this doesn’t work the other way around.

Most people don't choose to be gay...they just are...





As i am gay and you aren’t lets just say for arguments sake that i really can't help being gay. As this would mean that God had created me this way:



Would it then still be unacceptable for me to be in a loving sexual relationship with another woman?
I don't really believe in illicit sex (homo or heterosexual)...but that is my own personal choice...I don't see why you can't have this kind of relationship...its your choice, your body...not mine...so who am I to tell you that its wrong or right?

Would you still think it was more acceptable for me to have a life of celibacy and solitude even although i would be happier and it would be more mentally healthy to be in a loving relationship?

No.


Why would God create me in this way if he wished for me to remain alone while others have the pleasure of a lasting relationship?


You could still have a lasting relationship with someone of the same sex...regardless of whether or not you slept with them...

If God see's us all as equal then why the emphasis on genitals? Are we not arguing over a few inches of skin?

We are not so much our bodies as we all individual spirit souls...when it comes down to souls, gender doesn't matter any more...spirit soul is beyond maya (illusion; materialism)...





....this is what I have to say about these things...many of you my not agree with me...but... oh well...

[sweatininthesouth]

Why is it hard to believe when i explain that i have not chosen to be gay? Is it that you think that I’m misguided? Lying to myself? Lying to you? Trying to justify what i do? After all i believe you when you claim to be naturally heterosexual so I’m very curious to know why this doesn’t work the other way around.


If God see's us all as equal then why the emphasis on genitals? Are we not arguing over a few inches of skin?





Casey, as you've probably guessed by now, there are alot of homophobic as well as ignorant people in this forum, as I'm sure you have come across in the real world as well. However, there are some in here who are not judgmental and realize that some people, not all, were born "gay." And some have chosen to be gay for personal reasons.

It still makes me laugh when closed minded, homophobic people can look at a person who is obviously gay and say that person "chose" to be that way. Like the ultra feminine man, or the very masculine woman -- we have all seen people like this and it is obvious that these folks were born that way, so get over it and accept them -- they are part of our society and the human race!

It sickens me that there are people in here like Warrior and Epiphany that preach the Bible with hate in their hearts. They don't speak for God or Jesus, they speak out of hate and intolerance. No wonder so much of the world hates the U.S. and wants to bomb the shit out of us. We can't even get along with the citizens of our own country, let alone the world community.

[SimpleMan]

You cannot prove that unless you have faith. HOmosexuals will say they were born that way...but unless your one with God you will never know the true nature of man.

Only through a close relationship with God...thats when you realize that the heart is naturally wicked and that the Lord Jesus Christ came to save us all through the Cross.

Sin is sin...plain and simple...But you can repent. Thats what is so great about Christ. He gives us a chance to be saved from our bondage.

IF your gay...do you honestly and truely feel like, what your doing is natural and right?

Or are you ashamed and trying to cover it up?


God wants to help you....he will never turn away from your cries.

You just have to realize your sin and repent for it.

[sweatininthesouth]

-the heart is naturally wicked

-the Lord Jesus Christ came to save us all through the Cross.

-Sin is sin...plain and simple

-you can repent

-God wants to help you

-realize your sin and repent for it.

Wow, simpleman, are you sure there isn't some "tent revival" you're missing? You sound like a pentecostal preacher in here, ready to start speaking in tongues while your head spins around.

Why are you all so interested in other peoples genitalia and what they do with it? Are you sure you aren't just a little bit gay yourselves and this is the way to wash your own "sin" away, by trying to cleanse someone else? Really, if you're so obsessed with what other people are doing in their own bedrooms, in the privacy of their own homes, maybe you all just want to dabble in "gaydom." That's the only explanation I can think of for your obsession with the gay lifestyle.

[bandit28]

In that same idiotic reasoning sweatininthesouth I guess you could say that non christians wish to dable in Christianity when they try t oremove our rights of prayer in the Schools, or to take God out of the pledge. Perhaps they are wanting to dable in Christianity when non believers force a Christian Judge to remove the 10 comandments from his court room. Or when groups rally to have a Bible removed from the front steps of a court house.

I don't care what you do with your genitalia, as long as you don't attempt to convince my child that what you do is ok. By making homosexual marriage legal yo uare sayign it is ok and sending a false message out to our children.

I really think it is funny when a non believer says "Well, God made me this way". Well, no He didn't. You choose to be homosexual. Just as a murder chooses to kill someone. Just as you choose what you want to eat at a restraunt. Just because you accept homosexuality does not mean that I have too. You choose not to believe in Jesus, I choose not to agree that homosexuality is ok.

And for the last freaking time. I for one do not hate anyone. If you run into a Christian that is preaching hate, then you just encountered a false Christian. I support human rights, the right to live, the right to work together for what is right, the right to fight against what is wrong. Homosexuality inside The Bible and outside of it is wrong and I support my right to fight against you and anyone else that thinks it is ok.

[Casey]

Casey, as you've probably guessed by now, there are alot of homophobic as well as ignorant people in this forum, as I'm sure you have come across in the real world as well. However, there are some in here who are not judgmental and realize that some people, not all, were born "gay." And some have chosen to be gay for personal reasons.

Yes i do think that some people have chosen to be gay as well and i know that there are still a lot of good Christians who are at least open to learning about what it's like for others and to help bridge the differences. For a while i had stumbled across a similar forum and was really taken aback by the comments i seen posted. I don’t think anything on this forum could shock me as a result. At first i argued with people and then when i realised i wasn't getting anywhere and the posts had mounted up and gone around and around in circles, i tried another approach. I stopped arguing and started asking everyone generally a bit about themselves. I said a little about me and pretty soon everyone was communicating with respect to each other. I realised that like it or not we probably have quite a bit in common and i used this as a basis to relate to people. It didn't work in all cases but i was very surprised to start getting e-mails and replies from some of the most obscene posters apologising or just chatting away. One woman in particular was extremely ignorant in terms of homosexuality but otherwise a very intelligent person. She later explained to me that people react a certain way to things they are afraid of and when you don’t know a lot about something you assume the worst. I will admit that before this better communication i did become rather resentful about religion generally but this was hypocritical on my part as there are also minorities in my own group who paint a bad picture and misrepresent all homosexuals.

It still makes me laugh when closed minded, homophobic people can look at a person who is obviously gay and say that person "chose" to be that way. Like the ultra feminine man, or the very masculine woman -- we have all seen people like this and it is obvious that these folks were born that way, so get over it and accept them -- they are part of our society and the human race!

It sickens me that there are people in here like Warrior and Epiphany that preach the Bible with hate in their hearts. They don't speak for God or Jesus, they speak out of hate and intolerance. No wonder so much of the world hates the U.S. and wants to bomb the shit out of us. We can't even get along with the citizens of our own country, let alone the world community.
Well i'm from the uk and think highly of America. You shouldn't generalise your Nation on the views of a few idiots when there are plenty like yourself who are not so hot headed and hate filled.

[Casey]

You cannot prove that unless you have faith. HOmosexuals will say they were born that way...but unless your one with God you will never know the true nature of man.

and unless you are homosexual you will never know the true nature of sexual orientation.

Only through a close relationship with God...thats when you realize that the heart is naturally wicked and that the Lord Jesus Christ came to save us all through the Cross.

Sin is sin...plain and simple...But you can repent. Thats what is so great about Christ. He gives us a chance to be saved from our bondage.

mmm...bondage

IF your gay...do you honestly and truely feel like, what your doing is natural and right?

Yes truly. It’s completely natural and totally right, for me. Just in the same way that heterosexuality is for you.

Or are you ashamed and trying to cover it up?

Yes I’m deeply ashamed at some of societies attitudes. I would cover my sexuality up in order to protect my loved ones from being an easy target to bigoted thugs yes, but I’m in no way ashamed of having sex in a loving long term relationship with my lovely girlfriend, no.


God wants to help you....he will never turn away from your cries.

But i'm not crying, i'm quite happy, thanks all the same.

You just have to realize your sin and repent for it.
Its not a sin to be in love ;)

[sweatininthesouth]

I don't care what you do with your genitalia, as long as you don't attempt to convince my child that what you do is ok. By making homosexual marriage legal yo uare sayign it is ok and sending a false message out to our children.

I support my right to fight against you and anyone else that thinks it is ok.
And what if your child grows up to be gay. Will you continue this "fight" against your own child too? How pathetic. You and your kind perpetuate the hate in this world, in the name of God. You are so blind.

To teach young children to hate and loathe others, because a group of people are different and they love in a way that you do not. You are the ones who are in desperate need of help, not the homosexual community.

My sister is gay. My children love her, their Aunt. I am teaching my children about love and acceptance of others who are different and that includes the gay community. My children will grow up to embrace others from all walks of life, including gays. My children are full of love for others, not hate, judgement and intolerance as you are poised to teach your children. I choose love, acceptance and tolerance to guide my children through their lives. They will be the wiser and happier for it. You have chosen intolerance and judgment to guide yourself and your children....you perpetuate the hate. It is that simple.

[Casey]

In that same idiotic reasoning sweatininthesouth I guess you could say that non christians wish to dable in Christianity when they try t oremove our rights of prayer in the Schools, or to take God out of the pledge. Perhaps they are wanting to dable in Christianity when non believers force a Christian Judge to remove the 10 comandments from his court room. Or when groups rally to have a Bible removed from the front steps of a court house.

I don't care what you do with your genitalia, as long as you don't attempt to convince my child that what you do is ok. By making homosexual marriage legal yo uare sayign it is ok and sending a false message out to our children.

I really hope that for your children’s sake none of them turn out to be gay. If i had an overpowering, bigoted, psychologically unstable parent like you i think i would rather kill myself than confide in you that i was gay. There are a lot of young people who kill themselves because of people like you. I guess that makes you a murderer. The only message it would send out to our children is that we will love them and respect them no matter who they are attracted to. I would rather my child be happy in a same sex relationship than slit their wrists because i was a bad parent.

I really think it is funny when a non believer says "Well, God made me this way". Well, no He didn't. You choose to be homosexual. Just as a murder chooses to kill someone. Just as you choose what you want to eat at a restraunt. Just because you accept homosexuality does not mean that I have too. You choose not to believe in Jesus, I choose not to agree that homosexuality is ok.

I know for a fact that i didn't choose my sexuality, the reason you dont want to believe it is because it would slacken your point even more than you already have.

And for the last freaking time. I for one do not hate anyone. If you run into a Christian that is preaching hate, then you just encountered a false Christian.

all you have to do is realise your sin and repent! God will never ignore your cries. ;)

I support human rights, the right to live, the right to work together for what is right, the right to fight against what is wrong. Homosexuality inside The Bible and outside of it is wrong and I support my right to fight against you and anyone else that thinks it is ok.
well its just plain bad manners not to know what you are fighting against. If you think that loving relationships are wrong then i hate to imagine what state your personal life is in right now. Just for the record it would surprise me if you even had one.

[bandit28]

It's amazing you people even know how to read. It is getting quite frustrating that you continue to put words into my mouth and feelings of hate into my life when in fact there isn't any.

And what if your child grows up to be gay. Will you continue this "fight" against your own child too? How pathetic. You and your kind perpetuate the hate in this world, in the name of God. You are so blind.
Well, I pray daily that God will guide my child and grant him wisdom. There is no doubt that Satan is strong and has the ability to entice people, the evidence is clear just looking at our society. Again I have to say that i hate no one. Shall I type it in caps so you will read it and understand it? I HATE NO ONE! Just because I do not agree with the sin does not mean I hate the person. When my father sinned and beat me I didn't grow up hating him. I surely held anger towards his actions, but with life comes growth and maturity, and with God comes understanding. I forgave him and still love him dearly with all my heart. You assume that if my son chooses to be homosexual(oh and by the way, quit calling people gay, that means happy, not homosexual) that I will disown him and stop loving him. I agree this world is harsh, but I am far from being close to this world. I would continue to love my son, and continue to pray for him. As a matter of fact I wouldn't put it past God to allow this to happen in my family simply just to test me and my faith. Well, as Job held onto his faith, so will I. sweatininthesouth, you don't know me and all that you continue to do is attempt to add something that isn't there. Just because I see the wolf dressed in a sheeps costume doesn't make me a bad person. But have no fear, soon your people with have their brief spurt of pleasure and feeling that they have won something. In the end however, you all will be begging and crying for forgiveness. It's a harsh reality, you can accept it now, or pay for it latter.

I really hope that for your children’s sake none of them turn out to be gay. If i had an overpowering, bigoted, psychologically unstable parent like you i think i would rather kill myself than confide in you that i was gay. There are a lot of young people who kill themselves because of people like you. I guess that makes you a murderer. The only message it would send out to our children is that we will love them and respect them no matter who they are attracted to. I would rather my child be happy in a same sex relationship than slit their wrists because i was a bad parent.
Thanks for showing your maturity here. You have no clue what that makes you look like. Anyways, as I have found out in other forums and other threads, it is impossable to talk with someone that reverts to name calling. It basicly shows their lack of brains and quicknes to put someone down to feel better about themselves. I remeber leaving Jr High and hoping all that name calling had ended, however, I was dispointed to find out it continued on into highschool, and with some immature people, past highschool. I guess sence we Christians are blanketed together as homophobes we can blanket homosexuals together as mindles morons that resort to name calling?

I know for a fact that i didn't choose my sexuality, the reason you dont want to believe it is because it would slacken your point even more than you already have.
Yes, you mentioned earlier something about tests being done between heterosexual and homosexual males. Interesting. I wonder, did they studie these males from birth? Did they take a look at their dna, geene pool, brain waves, and any other criteria they might need at the birth of these people and then follow them daily and run tests on them? No, I don't think they did. So, until they do, and then say "ok, this one here from our estemates should be homosexual" and then watch and wait to find out in another 20 years, I won't believe it.

all you have to do is realise your sin and repent! God will never ignore your cries.
That is the smartest thing yo uhave said yet.

well its just plain bad manners not to know what you are fighting against. If you think that loving relationships are wrong then i hate to imagine what state your personal life is in right now. Just for the record it would surprise me if you even had one.
And then back to dumb again. I know exactly what I am fighting against, and when the time comes I will vote no against homosexual marriages. I don't recall saying that loving relationships are wrong. As a matter of fact, I strongly believe in marriage. Unfortunatly in todays society, men and woman most of the time get married for the wrong reasons. I for one am happily married to my wife and plan on upholding those vows that I said before God and witnesses, until I die. Just for the record, it would surprise me if you ever attempted to get to know me and understand me before attacking me. Wait, didn't i read in another thread where yo usaid you did this? Wait, wouldn't that make you a hypocrite?

[Epiphany]

It sickens me that there are people in here like Warrior and Epiphany that preach the Bible with hate in their hearts. They don't speak for God or Jesus, they speak out of hate and intolerance. No wonder so much of the world hates the U.S. and wants to bomb the shit out of us. We can't even get along with the citizens of our own country, let alone the world community.

No, actually I speak for the word of God. If you really knew me like you think you do, you would know that I don't hate anyone. And on a further note, in regards to this whole, "Christian homophobes", idea, I know quite a few homosexuals/bi-sexuals. I love them dearly as they are close friends of mine. I don't agree with their choice of sexuality, but I certainly do not stop loving them despite of it.


On a psychological note...... My theories of personality professor stressed on one of the biggest psychological theories of homosexuality. It is theorized that sexual preferences comes about at a quite early age. It is believed that during the oedipal period (between 4-5 years of age), that failure to identify with the parent of the same sex, results in identifying with the parent of the opposite sex. Thus, adapting to the ways of the parent of the opposite sex. It does sound quite interesting. Gay men are often more in touch with their feminine side, as gay women are often more in touch with their masculinity.
However, this is just a theory, as no psychological evidence has been found that can provide us with the answer of why someone chooses the sexual preference that they do. But, the Bible did prophecize that this will happen, especially towards the end times, when sexually immorality will run rapid.

[Casey]

It's amazing you people even know how to read. It is getting quite frustrating that you continue to put words into my mouth and feelings of hate into my life when in fact there isn't any.

No you wouldn't notice it would you? Thats what is worrying.

Well, I pray daily that God will guide my child and grant him wisdom. There is no doubt that Satan is strong and has the ability to entice people, the evidence is clear just looking at our society. Again I have to say that i hate no one. Shall I type it in caps so you will read it and understand it? I HATE NO ONE! Just because I do not agree with the sin does not mean I hate the person. When my father sinned and beat me I didn't grow up hating him.

Just as i thought, childhood truma resulting in a negative cycle of social inter-action.

I surely held anger towards his actions, but with life comes growth and maturity, and with God comes understanding. I forgave him and still love him dearly with all my heart. You assume that if my son chooses to be homosexual(oh and by the way, quit calling people gay, that means happy, not homosexual) that I will disown him and stop loving him.

Look up gay in the dictionary it has more than one meaning.

I agree this world is harsh, but I am far from being close to this world. I would continue to love my son, and continue to pray for him. As a matter of fact I wouldn't put it past God to allow this to happen in my family simply just to test me and my faith. Well, as Job held onto his faith, so will I. sweatininthesouth, you don't know me and all that you continue to do is attempt to add something that isn't there. Just because I see the wolf dressed in a sheeps costume doesn't make me a bad person. But have no fear, soon your people with have their brief spurt of pleasure and feeling that they have won something. In the end however, you all will be begging and crying for forgiveness. It's a harsh reality, you can accept it now, or pay for it latter.

In the 'end' i personally wont be asking for forgiveness, not for loving another woman anyway. If there is a God and there is a hell then i have no fear of either as i have already witnessed hell and where was my God then?

Thanks for showing your maturity here. You have no clue what that makes you look like. Anyways, as I have found out in other forums and other threads, it is impossable to talk with someone that reverts to name calling. It basicly shows their lack of brains and quicknes to put someone down to feel better about themselves.

It was an observation not name calling, and it is certainly no worse than having my relationship lumped in with sodden i.e. rape and prostitution.



I remeber leaving Jr High and hoping all that name calling had ended, however, I was dispointed to find out it continued on into highschool, and with some immature people, past highschool. I guess sence we Christians are blanketed together as homophobes we can blanket homosexuals together as mindles morons that resort to name calling?

When did i blanket all Christians as homophobes? I certainly did not and i do not believe that either. Why would it bother you being labelled as hating something when you do? I don’t care what you claim because you personally are homophobic. I understand that you don’t realise your doing it, which is why i am still replying to you. It is already clear what you label all homosexuals as. You see those who sleep around and choose to be gay in the same light as you see me who does not sleep around and is in a loving long-term relationship and have not chosen to be gay.

Yes, you mentioned earlier something about tests being done between heterosexual and homosexual males. Interesting. I wonder, did they studie these males from birth? Did they take a look at their dna, geene pool, brain waves, and any other criteria they might need at the birth of these people and then follow them daily and run tests on them? No, I don't think they did. So, until they do, and then say "ok, this one here from our estemates should be homosexual" and then watch and wait to find out in another 20 years, I won't believe it.

There were various tests carried out and yes some of which were from before birth and carried on right into adulthood. Yes they looked at the DNA and genetics particularly in the case of identical twins. I'm pretty sure the tests weren't daily as we are talking about people here and not lab rats. It might surprise you to know that they did actually test and scan the brains of the men and also measure the hormone levels. I'm not expecting you to believe anything that you don’t want to. After all, it would be ridiculous to take some thing written in some book as gospel without any hard proof and years of research, oh wait...

That is the smartest thing yo uhave said yet.[/color]

I was being sarcastic i appologise i should learn to leave my sence of humour at the door of this forum.


And then back to dumb again. I know exactly what I am fighting against, and when the time comes I will vote no against homosexual marriages.

That is clearly judging, which as a Christian you should be avoiding. Correct me if I’m wrong. Or does this only apply to everything except homosexuality? Dumb? Hmm an overly sensitive person might take that as name-calling but as i know I’m not dumb I’ll presume it was a mis-placed observation.

I don't recall saying that loving relationships are wrong.

You claim that my relationship is wrong and as its a loving relationship then you have said loving relationships were wrong.

As a matter of fact, I strongly believe in marriage. Unfortunatly in todays society, men and woman most of the time get married for the wrong reasons. I for one am happily married to my wife and plan on upholding those vows that I said before God and witnesses, until I die.

You know what? I do actually believe that totally. I trust you when you say you love your wife and will uphold your vows until you die and do you know why i believe you? Because you told me? No, because i feel exactly the same about my girlfriend so i can relate to what its like to feel such strong love for another person. What i don’t understand is why you can't show the same respect for me.

Just for the record, it would surprise me if you ever attempted to get to know me and understand me before attacking me. Wait, didn't i read in another thread where yo usaid you did this? Wait, wouldn't that make you a hypocrite?
If defending my right to exist on this planet and be in love is attacking then i guess i was. Yes i did say that in another thread but i didn't mean that i would just roll over and agree to your opinions in the meantime. It doesn't make me a hypocrite, as I am still willing to attempt to get to know you and any one else who is willing to know me.

[abbadabba]

No, actually I speak for the word of God. If you really knew me like you think you do, you would know that I don't hate anyone. And on a further note, in regards to this whole, "Christian homophobes", idea, I know quite a few homosexuals/bi-sexuals. I love them dearly as they are close friends of mine. I don't agree with their choice of sexuality, but I certainly do not stop loving them despite of it.
So in other words, you love them despite the fact that you think that they're going to burn in hell for all eternity, along with the rapists and murderers of the world.

So in other words, you love them with the hope that they'll see the light and stop being gay.

So in other words, you pray that they'll one day be good little Christians who never sin, just like you. But you love them. Riiiiiiiiight. You "love the sinner hate the sin" types mostly only do the hating.


Gay men are often more in touch with their feminine side, as gay women are often more in touch with their masculinity.
Yes, and blacks are more in touch with their watermelon-and-fried-chicken side, and Arabs are more in touch with their bombs-and-hostages side, and Mexicans are more in touch with their sombrero-and-taco side. You obviously have NOT been exposed to the gay community if you think these stereotypes hold any merit. Most gay people look and behave just like anyone else.

[Casey]

No, actually I speak for the word of God. If you really knew me like you think you do, you would know that I don't hate anyone. And on a further note, in regards to this whole, "Christian homophobes", idea, I know quite a few homosexuals/bi-sexuals. I love them dearly as they are close friends of mine. I don't agree with their choice of sexuality, but I certainly do not stop loving them despite of it.


On a psychological note...... My theories of personality professor stressed on one of the biggest psychological theories of homosexuality. It is theorized that sexual preferences comes about at a quite early age. It is believed that during the oedipal period (between 4-5 years of age), that failure to identify with the parent of the same sex, results in identifying with the parent of the opposite sex. Thus, adapting to the ways of the parent of the opposite sex. It does sound quite interesting. Gay men are often more in touch with their feminine side, as gay women are often more in touch with their masculinity.
However, this is just a theory, as no psychological evidence has been found that can provide us with the answer of why someone chooses the sexual preference that they do. But, the Bible did prophecize that this will happen, especially towards the end times, when sexually immorality will run rapid.
So this disagreement seems to be focused on 'choice'. It seems that to you its difficult to believe that someone could be born gay but it seems to me that its difficult to believe that anyone would choose to be gay. You can ignore what I’m telling you if you like and i don’t pretend to speak for all homosexuals when i say this, but, I, haven’t, chosen, to, be gay. I do choose to act on my sexuality, yes. But i do not choose to find women attractive instead of men.



It could be argued that religion is compensation for something lacking in childhood and that the subject's need to be heard and/or need to be accepted might have cause he/she to enter into the believe that an entity who he/she has never seen is somehow asserting control over him/her and the rest of the world. It could also be argued that he/she suffers great guilt over past experiences and turns to the belief in said entity as a direct result of this guilt. The subject might then go on to have 'conversations' (prayer) with this entity in which there is no direct reply. At times when the subject is unable to cope with grief, guilt etc they are prone to 'talking to themselves' and/or reading from a book that was written thousands of years ago, written by someone who he/she has never met. In extreme cases he/she may project this delusion onto family and friends, this is especially true when they do not agree with a situation. Children are as especially susceptible to bombardment of these 'beliefs' by a parent but in many cases the child will later suffer from feelings of resent toward the parent in question and the parent/child relationship will be strained as a result.



The book itself is full of contradiction and on the whole open to interpretation on many matters. Many of America's serial killers and mentally ill patients have been known to quote this book and practice what they believe to have been ordered to do by the entity in question. The 'bible' in some parts insinuates that the use of violence (stoning etc) is acceptable. It also insinuates that if a person/group does not follow the book that they are evil and will be punished by the entity when the world ends.

You see my point? We could all speculate about what is and isn't true.

[Epiphany]

So in other words, you love them despite the fact that you think that they're going to burn in hell for all eternity, along with the rapists and murderers of the world.

So in other words, you love them with the hope that they'll see the light and stop being gay.

So in other words, you pray that they'll one day be good little Christians who never sin, just like you. But you love them. Riiiiiiiiight. You "love the sinner hate the sin" types mostly only do the hating.
I love who I love regardless of age, race, sexual preference, religious beliefs, etc. After all, that is what friendship is all about. Unconditional love. What I think about their salvation doesn't affect how I feel for them. I do pray for them, yes, but if even they choose not follow God, it doesn't mean that I will love them any less. I never said that I didn't sin. Everyone sins, it's human nature. The difference is that Christians try avoid it.



Yes, and blacks are more in touch with their watermelon-and-fried-chicken side, and Arabs are more in touch with their bombs-and-hostages side, and Mexicans are more in touch with their sombrero-and-taco side. You obviously have NOT been exposed to the gay community if you think these stereotypes hold any merit. Most gay people look and behave just like anyone else.
I believe the keyword in that phrase was, "often". I did not say that every single gay person on the face of the earth behaved in any certain way. But again, it was a psychological theory. Take it up with the Psychiatrist/Psychologist that theorized it.

[xdianax]

Wow :( this is disappointing. Many more pages worth of text and no one really addressed the points/sites I brought up in my last post.

Well anyway, I think that those who are opposed to homosexuality need to realize something. The reason this issue is separate from all other things the bible condemns is because it calls something a sin that is inherent in someone's nature. The bible condemns many things: killing, stealing, adultery...but none are like homosexuality. The killer chooses to kill, the stealer chooses to steal, the adulterer chooses to cheat. However, the homosexual doesn't choose to be a homosexual. It is accepted to preach against the killers, stealers, and adulterers because they made a conscious decision, a harmful decision. However, to preach against someone's nature, something they have no control over, is terrible. To instill hate toward a certain person based on who they are is the true sin. I will never believe that the Christian God thought homosexuality was a sin because it goes against the Christian teaching that he is all loving. Even if you still believe thats what the bible says, consider this quote.

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."

I would never believe in something that tells me to hate someone based on something they have no control over.

A few days ago I saw a program on Matthew Shepard's death. I shuddered when they showed a bunch of men, women and even children protesting at the trial of one of the men who killed Shepard. They had signs saying "Matthew's in Hell", or "No special laws for fags". I don't believe that anyone here has these feelings, but the thought that there are people in the world with so much hate inside themselves is scary. What I don't understand is how people not only think someone's sexual orientation means the are automatically sinning, but that their orientation also means they will automatically burn in hell. People don't necessarily have the same assumptions for one who has commit adultery.

Anyway, for those of you who still think its a sin, just remember that you are against normal everyday people who only have one difference from you: their sexual preference. By preaching against them, that is no different from preaching against someone with a different skin color, it is not only not important, but it really doesn't mean anything in terms of who the person is as a whole.

:) Namaste,

Diana

[bandit28]

You forgot lust. Homosexuality is a perversion. I don't know how many times I have to say this, but you choose to do the things you do. You are not born that way. God does not make you homosexual, as that goes against His creation of man and woman. Then again it is pointless for me to say this, because even if God Himself parted the skies and said to everyone that it was wrong, people would still choose homosexuality.

Again I also have to say that I do not hate anyone. Just because yu see a few fake christians spreadign hate doesn't mean we are all like that. You have to be very small minded to think that everyone is the same. So, let's get this settled right now. I am not the fake christian yu see on tv. I am not the fake christian spitting on people. What I am is a human who admits he is a sinner, who lives his life as best he can according to The Word of God.

[mynameiskc]

i think you're 100% wrong, bandit, on the homosexuality being a choice. i've never chosen to be attracted to my same sex, i just am. the fact that i'm also attracted to the male sex is great because i wanted kids and they're easier to come by that way. but for someone who looks at the opposite sex and can't help but feel revulsion, i'm in full sympathy.


what about the tendency for animals in nature to develop homosexual tendencies when the population gets out of control? i think god built in a social valve for that sort of thing, and homosexuality is it.

[xdianax]

You forgot lust. Homosexuality is a perversion. I don't know how many times I have to say this, but you choose to do the things you do. You are not born that way. God does not make you homosexual, as that goes against His creation of man and woman. Then again it is pointless for me to say this, because even if God Himself parted the skies and said to everyone that it was wrong, people would still choose homosexuality.

Again I also have to say that I do not hate anyone. Just because yu see a few fake christians spreadign hate doesn't mean we are all like that. You have to be very small minded to think that everyone is the same. So, let's get this settled right now. I am not the fake christian yu see on tv. I am not the fake christian spitting on people. What I am is a human who admits he is a sinner, who lives his life as best he can according to The Word of God.

Umm Bandit, it seems like you didn't thoroughly read my post:

I don't believe that anyone here has these feelings, but the thought that there are people in the world with so much hate inside themselves is scary.

I was just bringing up the issue, because those people thought they were Christians and they believed that simply by being homosexual it means you are automatically going to Hell. I never generalized, and like I said before I don't believe anyone here has these beliefs, so I don't understand why you think I am small minded.

I didn't forget lust, I totally understand that it is a sin to have premartial sex and to commit adultery, and of course its one of the seven deadly sins. My point was that saying that nsame gender sex is a sin really condemns a certain people based on something they cannot control. In the same way, imagine if you are attracted to the opposite sex, it would be ridiculous for someone to condemn you and others like you by something that is in your nature. Obviously the issue of procreation gets in the way, but what I am trying to say is that its not right to condemn people based on something that is a part of their nature.

Many times I have heard people say "God doesn't make you a homosexual". I do not understand why people think they know this. Has God told you this? I mean unless you yourself are a homosexual how do you even know what it is like? I mean if you say that people "choose to do the things they do" how do you justify the natural inclination of heterosexuals toward others of the opposite sex? You don't choose to be attracted to the opposite sex, it is part of your nature, just as attraction to the same sex is part of a homosexuals nature. If you looked at the websites that I posted, it explains that same gender sex wasn't even mentioned in the bible, let alone homosexuality. Who is to say if God did or didn't intend it, unless he himself mentions it in the bible. The term "homosexuality" didn't even exist in Jesus' time.

:) Namaste,

Diana

[Casey]

i think you're 100% wrong, bandit, on the homosexuality being a choice. i've never chosen to be attracted to my same sex, i just am. the fact that i'm also attracted to the male sex is great because i wanted kids and they're easier to come by that way. but for someone who looks at the opposite sex and can't help but feel revulsion, i'm in full sympathy.


what about the tendency for animals in nature to develop homosexual tendencies when the population gets out of control? i think god built in a social valve for that sort of thing, and homosexuality is it.
I personally don’t feel revulsion for the opposite sex; it’s just that it does about as much for me sexually as kissing a wall would! Which is absolutely nothing. I have dated guys before (quite a few incidentally) when i was younger but i was never attracted to them and i certainly never slept with any of them because quite frankly i am just not attracted to men. Its not like i could even name off reasons why I’m not because I’m not repulsed by them and I’m comfortable enough with my sexuality to share beds with male friends but that’s all they are is friends. I haven't chosen to be gay and i don’t see why i shouldn't act on it being as this is the case. There's a whole lot of people who can't believe this but hey, i can sleep at night because i know what i am and i know who I’m not, regardless of the narrow minded opinions of people who haven’t got a clue and accuse me of not having a clue about my own life. That’s just a silly perception to take on things. :)

[bandit28]

it’s just that it does about as much for me sexually
Well, that pretty much summed it up for me. You said what it does for you. Meaning yet again it is a perversion based on what you want. Look, we can go round and round all you want on this topic, however, in reading and studying The Bible, I see where homosexuality is wrong. I see where God created life and who He coupled man with. He didn't exactly give man a choice did He? So, from my perspective, you should be able to see why I believe homosexuality is a choice. God doesn't make you homosexual. Just like He doesn't make you do anything else. It's all your choice. So, in that same line of thought, I understand why you see nothing wrong with homosexuality, you do not have the relationship that I and other Christians have with Jesus Christ.

Now, I would like to remind you that at anytime you come across a supposed christian that is teaching hate, be it towards races, religions, or sexual preference, you haven't found a God fearing Christian. What yo uhave found is either a wayward and confused Christian, or all in all a fake Christian. Just remeber that next time whe nyou hear someone say "All Christians are homophobes".

[Epiphany]

. Who is to say if God did or didn't intend it, unless he himself mentions it in the bible.

The Bible speaks many times about, "men comitting indecent acts with other men." and "abandoning natural relations with women and being inflamed with lusts for one another."

God gave us the Bible as his word. That is how we know.

[Casey]

[QUOTE=bandit28]Well, that pretty much summed it up for me. You said what it does for you. Meaning yet again it is a perversion based on what you want.

Actually bandit the point was more what it didn't do for me. I couldn't be in romantic love with a guy so instead of wasting everyone’s time pretending to be straight I act on what is natural to me. I agree that acting on it is what I want to do but the feelings behind it are the part that isn’t my choice. Although it might be strange to you its not to me because of the feelings behind my actions. They are just as true and just as real as any that you feel towards someone of the opposite sex.



Look, we can go round and round all you want on this topic, however, in reading and studying The Bible, I see where homosexuality is wrong.

and by actually being homosexual i dont just see but know that its not wrong.

I see where God created life and who He coupled man with. He didn't exactly give man a choice did He?

That’s a contradiction bandit. Below you clearly state " its all your choice" so straight people don’t choose their sexuality but homosexuals do?





So, from my perspective, you should be able to see why I believe homosexuality is a choice. God doesn't make you homosexual. Just like He doesn't make you do anything else. It's all your choice.

I don’t think I believe in God anymore to be honest because I’m just so sick of having to justify my own existence to people who represent him/ it. I can’t understand your points because I don’t see what the problem is with same sex couples. There are plenty of people to breed and why would God see any loving relationship as wrong when it harms no one? It just doesn’t make sense.

So, in that same line of thought, I understand why you see nothing wrong with homosexuality, you do not have the relationship that I and other Christians have with Jesus Christ. [/color][/font]



I don’t want a relationship with Jesus Christ because the picture that a lot of Christians try to paint is of a fair and loving God who forgives everyone who asks for forgiveness and loves everyone the same. However what they actually portray to me is an evil tyrant, a bigot and a liar, a sexist, something to and fear and not to love, some grotesque being that contradicts and loathes, whose very words have caused so much hatred and upset that it’s impossible to count. You could argue that its man who have done this and not God but you also say that he is all seeing all knowing therefore when he wrote the book he knew what it would bring and that people would interpret what they want in it.

[cptbri]

ok if you want proof that the Bible is open to interrpretation, check out this link. It shows the arguments from both sides of the coin both quoting from passages in the Bible and is one of the best, most fair articles I've seen on this.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibl.htm

Make sure you scroll all the way down to the area entitled Topics covered in this section and read every link there to get the full argument. Its facinating reading.

[xdianax]

The Bible speaks many times about, "men comitting indecent acts with other men." and "abandoning natural relations with women and being inflamed with lusts for one another."

God gave us the Bible as his word. That is how we know.

Every time someone says this I sigh because I think twice already I have posted two sites which show that this isn't the case. No one has yet address these sites in a post; :) cptbri now also has posted a website, so I strongly suggest that you all check them out.

:) Namaste,

Diana