Why are Christians such homophobes?

[abbadabba]

Why are Christians obsessed with who complete strangers have sex with, when Jesus never once mentioned homosexuality? It wasn't even on your god's top ten list of sins. In fact, there are more references in the Bible prohibiting the eating of meat than there are prohibiting homosexuality.

With that said, I challenge any Christian to give a rational argument against civil rights for gays in the form of marriage, adoption, and military service.

[barefootnikki]

Why are Christians obsessed with who complete strangers have sex with, when Jesus never once mentioned homosexuality?
Nothing like a good generalization huh? I'm a Christian and i am far from obsessed with who a complete stranger has sex with. I am female and love men but i also love women. What's not to love? How about you dump the blanket statements and come back with something a little more specific. Also, good luck finding Christians here that are worried about homosexuality. From the bit i've read there are some true Jesus lovin' hippies around here and all they do is love others.

peace
barefootnikki

that said... i would "guess" that like most religions some groups of people like to twist things to fit their own prejudices so they can feel that God is on their side.

[Aberfoyle]

I believe that in the chapter Levictus something along the lines of "Do not lie in bed with a man as you would a woman" is written. So I suppose this is the root.



As for rational arguments from Christians against gay marriage, their 'rational' argument is "Its wrong in the eyes of god". So they believe that is reason enough for gay marriage to be against the law.



To that I say, -We must preserve the seperation of church and state-



And as far as this generalizing goes, I think it is fair to generalize that orthodox christians are anti-gay. These days there is much more unorthodoxy in Christianity than there used to be though so "Christians are homophobes" is unfair.

[J_Lazarus]

Its hardly the few verses in Leviticus and Deuteronomy that condemn homosexuality. If you read the Book of Romans, there is quite alot to say - not just against homosexual action, but even the thought or inclination of homosexuality.

Thus, Christians are absolutely right when they say that the Bible condemns homosexuality in both the Old and New Testaments and therefore should be frowned upon as a moral wrong.

However - is it a moral wrong? How can they justify this in an intellectual way instead of just ranting off sleep-stimulating verses from the scriptures?

I contend that there is no wrong with homosexuality - and thus the Bible is incorrect, and bigoted.

Not that we can really condemn them - the writers at that time were simply products of their society in that particular way. Can't expect humans to rise above all of their society's incorrect views - as we can only be human.

But that's just my own two cents.

- JL

[Barefoot_Surfer]

I am going to get shot down in flames here. But I am a great believer in a balanced argument and showing the facts as they are. The Bible clearly states that homosexuality is wrong and is a sin. Genesis 19 states this nicely. If anybody knows the story of Sodom and Gomorrah will know what happened.

Genesis 19
4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom-both young and old-surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."

Guess what happened to those two cities.

Genesis 19
24 Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah-from the LORD out of the heavens. 25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities-and also the vegetation in the land.

Call me old fasioned but the Bible also states that sex outside the context of marrage is also a sin. All sin carries the same weight in God's eyes. But the Bible also states that we must love the sinner but hate the sin. Sex is inbuilt in to us. But we do not have to act on these desires. The trouble with homosexuality it is about self worship. It is written all over the Bible that you should not worship anything else other than God. But if you love the lord but are homosexually inclined you are probably better of giving your services to the Lord. Celebacy is are hard thing to do sometimes.
Matt

[abbadabba]

Call me old fasioned but the Bible also states that sex outside the context of marrage is also a sin. All sin carries the same weight in God's eyes. But the Bible also states that we must love the sinner but hate the sin. Sex is inbuilt in to us. But we do not have to act on these desires.
What would you have a homosexual do? Deny the truth and be celibate their entire life? "You don't have to act on desires" is one of the dumbest arguments Christians come up with when it comes to homosexuality.

The trouble with homosexuality it is about self worship. It is written all over the Bible that you should not worship anything else other than God. But if you love the lord but are homosexually inclined you are probably better of giving your services to the Lord. Celebacy is are hard thing to do sometimes.
How is it about self-worship? Heterosexuals act on their desires without being condemned by the Christian world, so why should homosexuals be any different?

[Barefoot_Surfer]

How is it about self-worship? Heterosexuals act on their desires without being condemned by the Christian world, so why should homosexuals be any different?

Well I am a great believer that it should very well be condemed. It is society trying to mold the church. A few years ago it was condemed. I know of a case where the church had to disipline a couple of people. Guess what it was. Adultery! Basically one girl I knew was sleeping with this married man. She confessed this to the minister and that set of a chain of events that led to a meeting being held. Lots of discussions with the parties involved.
Matt

[phunkymonkey]

I think one of the biggest problems with the views on Christians is that there are so many people out there that say they are Christian but have never sat down & thought anything out. I am a Christian & am not speaking against Christianity, but I have seen a lot of people who will scream at you about a religious topic, but they don't really even know what they are saying... these same people might or might not even go to church or read the Bible, but they know they are 'supposed to' be angry about it....

So many Christians will speak loudly against homosexuality and ignore many other things... One time Will & Grace was about to come on the tv & the person that was in the room with me got angry & changed the channel quickly saying he wasn't going to watch that 'fag'... I said that you can't be so upset about that when you are just going to watch another show where heterosexuals are having sex with everyone & that is supposed to be the same... but most Christians will not get into a heated debate about those things.

I think we get a lot of that because the older generations were raised in a society where it was much more socially unacceptable... and so the older members of the churches or the pastors pass it down that it is horribly wrong & you should be angry about it too.... & most people never get past that.

But in the end, Christians should not judge people outside of the church. If someone is not Christian, it does not matter if they are sinning because they have no reason not to. And we do not always know the heart of people that are in the church. A pastor could be cheating on his wife, but on the outside he looks fine & holy. It is up to God to convict someone of a sin & if they do change it should be for that reason & not because someone screamed them into submission.

[Epiphany]

Call me old fasioned but the Bible also states that sex outside the context of marrage is also a sin. All sin carries the same weight in God's eyes. But the Bible also states that we must love the sinner but hate the sin. Sex is inbuilt in to us. But we do not have to act on these desires.
I could not agree more.

[abbadabba]

Well I am a great believer that it should very well be condemed. It is society trying to mold the church. A few years ago it was condemed. I know of a case where the church had to disipline a couple of people. Guess what it was. Adultery!

Adultery is NOT the same thing as homosexual sex or heterosexual sex, and you know it. Adultery is immoral because it actually HARMS someone. Sex, whether gay or straight, harms no one.

[Epiphany]

Adultery is NOT the same thing as homosexual sex or heterosexual sex, and you know it. Adultery is immoral because it actually HARMS someone. Sex, whether gay or straight, harms no one.

However, the Bible condems them both as a sin. I wouldn't say that sex doesn't harm anyone. Sex plays on both your physical and emotional needs. That's why God says that each man would have his own wife. Of course, not many people take that to heart in this day and age and that's why we have all of the sexual issues that we do.

[abbadabba]

However, the Bible condems them both as a sin. I wouldn't say that sex doesn't harm anyone. Sex plays on both your physical and emotional needs. That's why God says that each man would have his own wife. Of course, not many people take that to heart in this day and age and that's why we have all of the sexual issues that we do.
All the sexual issues that we do? Like what? I, for one, think it's great that society has progressed beyond the Puritan view of sex. Any "sexual issues" that our society has have probably existed for ages, but people are just now starting to talk about them.

[phunkymonkey]

I think the point Barefoot_Surfer was trying to make is that the churches should not speak so loudly & angrily against certain topics while they ignore other issues.... The story that he told happened to involve adultery, but I can only assume that if the members of his church had been unmarried teens having sex that he would have told thatstory instead. I do not think that he was trying to compare adultery & homosexual sex... the topics are very different as abbadabba said.

As far as 'sexual issues'... I do think that it is good that we are able to talk about more things now & that yes, they have gone on a long time behind closed doors. But I think that it is sad that as much knowledge as we have now, people are still going to think that nothing bad can happen to them, it is always going to be someone else. And so a lot of time nothing is discussed until there is already a problem (sorry to speak so vaguely!)

(By the way Epiphany, I love those fairy wings!) ;)

[Epiphany]

So father-less children, teen pregnancies, and an outbreak of sexual disease is progress? This goes back to God cursing Babylon, and Sodom and Gomorrah for their sexually immorality. I'm glad the Puritans viewed sex the way they did. Of Course, nowadays, wearing a big red letter on your chest would be the, "cool", thing to do. "How many red A's can you get sewn on?". But back to the point, God said that homosexuality was wrong, and that is why us Christians are against the notion.

[abbadabba]

So father-less children, teen pregnancies, and an outbreak of sexual disease is progress?
Fatherless children is not a sexual problem.

Teen pregnancies - On the decline for several decades now.

Outbreak of sexual disease - Also on the decline since the birth of modern medicine. We just happen to live in an age with one very terrible new STD, which could have just as easily sprang up during any point in human history. Every other STD is declining thanks to us sinful, devil-worshipping atheists who actually take the time to educate kids and third-world foreigners about sex...which you Christians tend to be opposed to.

I'm glad the Puritans viewed sex the way they did.
Then I don't suppose we have anything else to say to each other since you disagree with my opinion that freedom is a good thing. However, I'll finish disproving your argument for the sake of others reading this thread.

But back to the point, God said that homosexuality was wrong, and that is why us Christians are against the notion.
How arrogant of you to assume that you know what God is thinking. Doesn't the Bible also say to fix your OWN life before you go condemning others? Of course, people like yourself ignore any parts of the Bible that don't suit you. Is your own life so completely sinless that you consider yourself better than homosexuals?

[Epiphany]

How arrogant of you to assume that you know what God is thinking. Doesn't the Bible also say to fix your OWN life before you go condemning others? Of course, people like yourself ignore any parts of the Bible that don't suit you. Is your own life so completely sinless that you consider yourself better than homosexuals?
Um, the scriptures about homosexually and it's punishment were clearly pointed out, so how did I assume anything? Your question simply asked why are Christians, "homophobic", I answered by telling you that in the Bible, God says that homosexuality is a sin. Because it's a sin, Christians oppose it. No one said anything about being blameless. You asked a specific question, you got a specific answer. It's amusing how people assume that Christians believe they are perfect. Did I not agree with the one in an earlier post who said, "Love the sinner hate the sin"?

[SageDreamer]

Perhaps it's the way it is becaus the church is a voluntary institution. People aren't legally required to go to church--thank God--and so the church has to recruit (i.e., evangelize, proselytize) to get people in the door.

If people have sex and reproduce, they're likely to send their children to church. Then those people grow up and send their children to church. If people have gay sex or lesbian sex, no future church-goers result.

[phunkymonkey]

Hehe... That makes me think of natural selection SageDreamer ;)


Originally posted by Epiphany
Your question simply asked why are Christians, "homophobic", I answered by telling you that in the Bible, God says that homosexuality is a sin.

I think that this question is not so simple... even if Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin does not mean that they should be afraid of them, as 'homophopic' would imply ~ or so angry towards them.

[Warisfortheweakminde]

Indeed homophobic is not the same as disagreeing with homosexuality, it is being either afraid or pissed off by it. So technically a true christian (of which there are very few nowdays) would not be homophobic persay, but more inclined not to perform any homosexual deboncles themselves.

[IcE-MaN]

This again i see....Epiphany,I totaly back you up on this and everything you said.If the people that do believe in the word of God studies the bible they would already know this.And those who have no clue that just wanna put the word down so to speak they would also know the answer to these questions.And Abbadaba why is it always something like this dealing with homosexuals and not other debates?? if you think christians only care about this issue and not others you have no clue the christian coalition of america deal with all types of negativity from different TV shows to the people running for all types of office.Not trying to get you upset by writing this but you must know most of us christians are not the way you percieve us to be.But you are entitled to your opinion and im not going to hold that against you ...

[Epiphany]

I think that this question is not so simple... even if Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin does not mean that they should be afraid of them, as 'homophopic' would imply ~ or so angry towards them.It's not a matter of fear but a matter of respecting God's will. I don't have any anger towards someone when it comes to sexual preference. I just know that God spoke against homosexuality, and as a believer, I follow his word. I definetly don't agree with making gay marriage legal because again, according to the Bible, marriage was meant to be between a man and woman (hey, his rules) but I don't go into some rage over seeing two people of the same sex together. Hell, I've kissed girls before in the past. Course that was before I was saved.

Thanks Ice-man :)

[phunkymonkey]

While I agree that some Christians are just as concerned with other issues as Ice-Man was saying, I do think that a lot of churches will preach against homosexuality & other 'hot' issues & ignore other topics. They are often taught to hate more than they are taught to love. If they are not taught by their church to hate they will see other Christains acting that way on the television or in the papers.

It is the church's job to teach love & mercy & the church members' job to learn these lessons. But too many people ignore this & act the way they think they are supposed to... and so people look down on Christianity because so many people that live in America consider themselves Christian even when they know very little about it.

[Lilyrayne]

I am a Christian and I am not a homophobe to any extent. I don't really even pay that much attention to one's sexual orientation unless they want me to, even though some people would say I should. I love gay men, most of them are so nice and fun to hang around. Gay women on the other hand, are the completely opposite, in my experience they have been very bitchy and mean. Not sure why the trend seems to be this way, but it is. But my point is, I look at the person for who they are, not what their sexual preference is, even if I take note of it. When I do take note of it, it's usually like taking note that someone has blonde hair, or has a blue shirt on.

I do however believe that homosexuality is wrong, and I would do my best to not engage in it. I acknowledge that no one is perfect and some people are going to be attracted to the opposite sex... there have even been a few women I've seen in my life that I wouldn't mind "doing". But I feel like it's a bad idea to indulge in that for a variety of reasons, some of them being my personal religious beliefs, pratical and logical beliefs, and the fact that sometimes I wonder if I'm truly attracted to that or just attracted to the mystery, since I've never experienced it. I'm pretty sure after if I experienced it, I would no longer be interested... It would probably just feel weird.

Anyway my whole point is, I know that a stereotype of a Christian is to be homophobic, and to be honest I do know a lot of "Christians" and Christians who really are homophobic becasue of what they've been taught growing up. But on the flip side there are just as many tolerant and loving Christians who realize the truth about this matter, and aren't homophobic at all. I feel bad for the people who are homophobic as well as the people that are hurt by them because of their homophobia... it's such needless stress that gets either them nowhere. So much more could be accomplished if they would just get along and be nice, and love them for what they are: human.

[Epiphany]

While I agree that some Christians are just as concerned with other issues as Ice-Man was saying, I do think that a lot of churches will preach against homosexuality & other 'hot' issues & ignore other topics. They are often taught to hate more than they are taught to love. If they are not taught by their church to hate they will see other Christains acting that way on the television or in the papers.
I am blessed to be part of a church that not only teaches against what is wrong, but also teaches to have love for one another no matter what.

[abbadabba]

And Abbadaba why is it always something like this dealing with homosexuals and not other debates??

You tell me. Christians are the ones that condemn them, as though you're free of sin yourselves. The Bible has a few passages about homosexual sex (probably a very small amount compared to other Roman Empire works). There are more passages about other sins that Christians are generally silent about.


if you think christians only care about this issue and not others you have no clue the christian coalition of america deal with all types of negativity from different TV shows to the people running for all types of office.Not trying to get you upset by writing this but you must know most of us christians are not the way you percieve us to be.But you are entitled to your opinion and im not going to hold that against you ...You claim that you're not the way I perceive you, and then you mention the Christian Coalition as a positive force in America. If Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson are your idea of good Christians, I think that pretty much verifies that you ARE the way I perceive you. The Christian Coalition is one of the largest hate groups in America.

[mynameiskc]

i'm a christian. i don't care who someone has sex with unless it's a family member or forced. but to be honest, there's a lot of areas in the bible where i can't help but say "what the fuck?" god doesn't make mistakes, men do. so, as i christian, i make a point to follow christ's fundamental teachings, i trust them rather well. love everyone, no sin is unforgiveable, be a shining light to others and bring peace to all you can.

[ChiefCowpie]

I just know that God spoke against homosexuality, and as a believer, I follow his word.
did you hear him personally or you just going by what people told you?

[abbadabba]

This is a rant from the Real Live Preacher's blog. It pretty much summarizes my opinion of homophobic "Christians."



So you want to talk about homosexuality? YOU want to talk about homosexuality? You want to talk about homosexuALITY?

Sit down CHRIStian. Give me that bible you’re waving before you hurt yourself. I’m going to resist the temptation to snatch it from your hands and beat you with it. I am your worst nightmare, a Texas preacher who knows The Book better than you do.

You cannot wave your unread bible and scare me. I know its larger story and I will tear you a new biblical asshole.

Show me your scriptures. Show me how you justify condemning homosexual people.

Show me what you got, Christian. The Sodom story? That story is about people who wanted to commit a brutal rape. Let’s all say it together, “God doesn’t like rape”. You could have listened to your heart and learned that, Christian. Move on. What else you got?

A weak-ass little passage from Leviticus? Are you kidding me? Are you prepared to adhere to the whole Levitical code of behavior? No? Then why would you expect others to? What else?

Two little passages - two verses from Romans and one from I Corinthians. There you stand, your justification for a worldwide campaign of hatred is written on two limp pieces of paper. I know these passages, both their greater context and the original language. I could show you why you have nothing, but there is something more important you need to see.

Come with me to the church cellar. Come now and don’t delay. I am shaking with anger and fighting the urge to grab you by the collar and drag you down these steps.

You didn’t know the church had a cellar? Oh yes, every church does. Down, down we go into the darkness. Don’t slip on the flagstone and never mind the heat.

There, do you see the iron furnace door, gaping open? Do you see the roaring flames? Do you see the huge man with glistening muscles, covered with soot? Do you see him feeding the fire as fast as can with his massive, scooped shovel?

He feeds these flames with the bible, with every book, chapter, and verse that American Christians must burn to support our bloated lifestyles, our selfishness, our materialism, our love of power, our neglect of the poor, our support of injustice, our nationalism, and our pride.

See how frantically he works? Time is short, and he has much to burn. The prophets, the Shema, whole sections of Matthew, most of Luke, the entire book of James. Your blessed 10 commandments? Why would you want to post them on courtroom walls when you’ve burned them in your own cellar?

Do you see? DO YOU SEE? Do you see how we rip, tear, and burn scripture to justify our lives?

The heat from this cursed furnace rises up and warms the complacent worshippers in the pews above. The soot from the fire blackens our stained glass so that we may not see out and no one wants to see in.

Do you smell the reek of this injustice? It is a stink in the nostrils of the very living God. We are dressed in beautiful clothes and we wear pretty smiles, but we stink of this blasphemous holocaust.

Every church in America has a cellar like this. We must shovel 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, because every chapter and book we ignore must be burned to warm our comfy pews.

And you come to me with two little scraps of scripture to justify your persecution of God’s children?

Sit down Christian. Sit down and be you silent.

How long has it been since you forgot that we were called to walk the earth as pilgrims? Do you not remember when HE told us to give our coats to those in need and sell our possessions to help the poor? Did you forget how the first church had all things in common so that none would lack.

Did you forget the day He told us that whatever we did for the oppressed we did for Him, and whatever we withheld from them was kept from Him as well?

Sit down Christian. You have not earned the right to speak to this generation. The right to speak is earned with love.

Take back your bible. Take it back and start reading it. Fall in love again with Jesus. Sell what you must and walk the earth. Let your love be astonishing and people may one day listen to your words.

Even now you might be saved. Our God is merciful and forgiveness awaits.

[abbadabba]

I'd like to speak to this issue in 4 parts.

Part One - Hypocrisy:
If Christians were honest, they would admit that they do not abide by all the commandments of scripture themselves. I don't mean we try and fail. I mean we deliberately choose to ignore scriptures that are not convenient for our lifestyle. As I pointed out in my post yesterday, the amount of scripture that is ignored, scorned, and abused by modern Christians is appalling.
I think we should afford our homosexual brothers and sisters the same luxury. Perhaps we should offer them space at our bonfire to burn their little handful of scriptures as we burn the bible chapter and verse.
We should all agree that none of us are able or willing to follow all the teachings of scripture. Let the one who is obeying God's word ask for explanations from others.
In my book, that settles the argument, and there is no reason to go further. However, if you are determined to hold homosexuals to a higher standard, demanding detailed explanations of why they do not obey minor parts of the bible while all of Christendom tramples on the very heart of scripture, move on to part two:

Part Two - The Bible and homosexuality:
(I’m indebted to my new friend B. in Dallas for these thoughts)
The bible never addresses the subject of homosexuality. The idea of sexual identity was not a part of human thought until very recently. The bible addresses some specific homosexual acts in very specific contexts.
The idea of two people in a loving, committed homosexual relationship was not understood in the ancient Hebrew world and is not a subject in the bible.
Very credible biblical scholars treat the passages in question as specific commands against specific acts, and not as a wholesale prohibition on a homosexual orientation.
For many people, understanding this obvious limitation of the bible is all that is needed. The bible does not address the broad subject of sexual orientation because it was written before that was an issue. Any specific condemnation of homosexual acts must be seen as just that – a specific condemnation of an act in a specific context.
However, if that sounds too wishy-washy to you, if it sounds too slippery and subjective, let me now speak to all 6 of the passages in the bible that are thought by some people to address the issue of homosexuality.

Part Three – Exegesis
There are exactly 6 scriptures that are thought to address homosexuality. I’ll either quote the passage or provide a link so that you can read it.
The story of the destruction of Sodom – Genesis 19:1-29. If you read this story, you’ll quickly see that the men of the city of Sodom wanted to commit a brutal, homosexual rape (is there any other kind?). We simply cannot condemn a sexual orientation because of a rape. There is a heterosexual rape described in the next passage we will examine together. Shall we condemn heterosexuality because of this rape?
Any reasonable person will understand that this passage has nothing to say about loving, consensual homosexual relationships.
Judges 19:1-30 is a sad story of human evil of the type that are often recounted in scripture. It is basically a retelling of the Sodom story in a different context. This time, however, the men actually did rape a woman. This passage speaks to the need for God's love in a brutal world. It has no bearing on the question of homosexual orientation for the same reason that the Sodom story is not applicable. Both of these stories condemn ignorance and sexual brutality, but not homosexuality.
Texts 3 and 4 are both in Leviticus and make up a part of the Old Testament Levitical code.
Leviticus 18:22 – “Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.”
Leviticus 20:13 – “If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.”
The code of rules and behaviors in Leviticus does not apply to Christians. No Christian group I know demands full compliance with this ancient code of behavior. If we did we would have to keep kosher laws. We don’t even demand compliance with the sexual rules in Leviticus. If we did, we would allow polygamy, which is lawful in Leviticus. Unless you are prepared to obey all the rules in Leviticus, you cannot blame the homosexual for not feeling bound to obey them. To point to these two verses and demand selective compliance is ludicrous.
The Old Testament really has nothing specific to say to Christians about homosexuality. We turn now to the New Testament.
Jesus had nothing to say on the subject of homosexuality. His absence of comment does not support or condemn homosexuality. As I’ve noted, the idea of sexual orientation was not a part of human thinking. It’s not surprising that Jesus never addressed what was not an issue.
Paul discusses specific homosexual acts twice. These passages are the only two times homosexual behavior is mentioned in the New Testament.
I Corinthians 6:9 – “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders”
Male prostitutes and homosexual offenders. Can someone explain to me why we would condemn an entire orientation because of the prohibition of these specific acts?
The Greek words Paul used in this passage include the word for a young, effeminate male prostitute and the word for the older man who paid to have sex with him.
We can acknowledge that the bible condemns prostitution and a system where a younger man makes his living committing sex acts for money with older men. But we cannot condemn homosexuality in general because homosexual prostitution was condemned.
Paul condemns many heterosexual acts in his writings, even in this very verse, yet we do not condemn heterosexuality.
Romans 1:18-29 is the single most important passage dealing with homosexual acts. It is the one most often quoted and it is clearly the closest thing we find to condemnation. Verse 27 is the most specific verse.
I simply ask you to read this entire passage with an open mind. Paul says that those who reject God will be “given over to a shameful lusts”. They will engage in many acts that are not pleasing to God. Men will “burn with lust for one another” (verse 27)
I have seen sexuality perverted and used for evil in many contexts. The faithful and monogamous homosexuals that I know do not burn with lust for other men. They express their sexuality with each other, just as married heterosexuals do.
I don’t know exactly what Paul meant by this passage. I know he was describing people who chose not to worship God and then "burned with lust for other men." I don't know exactly what he meant, but I know this DOES NOT describe the homosexual Christians I know, who love God with great passion and are quietly committed to each other.

Part Four – Conclusion
Those are the 6 passages in the bible that are thought to address the subject of homosexuality. The Old Testament passages amount to nothing and the two New Testament passages are ambiguous at best and highly open to interpretation.
I do not think the bible teaches that every expression of homosexual love is sinful. The scriptural witness on this subject is shaky at best.
Even if you do not buy my claim that we have no right to demand specific explanation of scriptures from homosexuals since we don’t provide similar explanations for the hundreds of passages we blatantly ignore…
Even if you do not agree that the Bible never really addresses the subject of homosexuality as a sexual orientation…
Even if you reject my biblical analysis and decide that the bible is condemning of homosexuals…
Would you at least agree that the passages are ambiguous and open to many interpretations? Would you at least agree that others may responsibly interpret them and not agree with you?
If you could at least acknowledge that scripture is far from clear on this subject, then perhaps you would be willing to err on the side of compassion. Perhaps you would be willing to open your churches to our homosexual brothers and sisters, trusting them to read the bible just as you do, with love and hoping for Grace from God.

[mebesideme]

I personally am not Christian; nor am I homophobic. I believe there are several reasons for this fear among Christians. First, it does specifically say in the Bible that being Gay is wrong. Also, in the Catholic Church, the image many people get when thinking about homosexuality is of priests sexually abusing boys. There has been many a scandal with a gay priest.

[Epiphany]

I cannot personally think of any Christian I know who fears homosexuality. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I certainly do not fear it. You claim that many christians condem those who practice a radical lifestyle, and quite of few of them may. But on the other hand, quite a few of them don't. Any Christian who really tries to live by the book will not pick and choose the scriptures they wish to follow. A true Christian will try to follow all of Christ's teachings and not single out what is most convinent to them. If someone claims to be a Christian and protests homosexuality, but they themselves are caught up in an adulterous relationship, or they lie and steal, then yes, I can see your point about hypocrisy. But not all Christians are the same because not all people are the same. Some people claim they are Christians, but they decide what part of the word they wish to follow and what part they wish to omit. However, some Christians actually try to follow all of the scriptures and lead a lifestyle like that of Christ. You cannot judge a group of people based on the actions of a few.

The most important part of your point was when you said, quote: "I don't think". Implying your own personal interpretation of what it means. You say that homosexually isn't discussed in detail in the bible , but think of like this. Every relationship in the bible is between a man and a woman. Human life is created between a man and a woman. God created Eve for Adam and together they had children. The passage you discredit that discusses a man lying with another man to be sinful, (Leviticus 18:22), seems pretty blunt. If it straight out says that a man lying with another man is detestable to God, then apparently it is.

[cellotux]

Homosexuality, along with other forms of sexual immorality, is partially responsible for the present AIDS epidemic in the world. This is hardly up for debate, and it is a very serious problem. Sexual Immorality = Death. Just look at Africa if you don't believe it. Those of us who condemn this vigorously are doing so because we care about the continued existence of our civilization - not out of so-called "homophobia." Homophobic is just a stupid psycho-babble term that doesn't describe any real human condition. Besides it is an ignorant word.

"Homo" in Greek means "same"
"Phobia" in Greek means "fear"

So, strictly rendered the word means "Fear of Similarity."
I don't believe that is what you mean when you use the word.

[Christian]

The point that God rained fire and brimstone on two cities over the matter most likly has something to do with it.

[IcE-MaN]

dude thats not the way i am....i disagree with homosexual marriages...so what i have nothing against anyone who is gay,i have a few friends that are gay and they know where i stand on the issue. But when i say im against the marriage .i agree with you not all christians are like i am im not perfect by no means and i dont go around condeming anyone.I just know what the Bible says and try to obey it as much as i can...as a matter of fact if the world keeps going like it is there is gonna be nothing but anarchy in the future first it was about the pledge...One nation under GOD..then prayer in school....then the ten commandments....what the hell?? whats next?? about what you wrote up there ..not all preachers are hippocrites......nor is Christian Coalition the biggest hate group and if by chance it is....i dont guess i need to be in it.. i wasnt raised that way to be raicist.......

I totaly aggre with you ephipahy

[abbadabba]

Any Christian who really tries to live by the book will not pick and choose the scriptures they wish to follow. A true Christian will try to follow all of Christ's teachings and not single out what is most convinent to them.
Bull. I have never met a single Christian intent on following everything the Bible says. When is the last time you took the following passages into account?

"Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourself every girl who has never slept with a man." (Numbers 31:17-18)

"The Lord commands: "... slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women" (Ezechial 9:4-6)

"When the Lord delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the males .... As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves." (Deuteronomy 20:13-14)

"... Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead with the edge of the sword and; also the women and little ones.... every male and every woman that has lain with a male you shall utterly destroy." (Judges 21:10-12)

"This is what the Lord says: Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass .... And Saul ... utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword." (1 Samuel 15:3,7-8)

"The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their women with child ripped open." (Hosea 13:16)


"A curse on him who is lax in doing the LORD's work!
A curse on him who keeps his sword from bloodshed!" (Jeremiah 48:10)




If someone claims to be a Christian and protests homosexuality, but they themselves are caught up in an adulterous relationship, or they lie and steal, then yes, I can see your point about hypocrisy. But not all Christians are the same because not all people are the same. Some people claim they are Christians, but they decide what part of the word they wish to follow and what part they wish to omit. However, some Christians actually try to follow all of the scriptures and lead a lifestyle like that of Christ. You cannot judge a group of people based on the actions of a few.

Christ never once condemned homosexuals, like you do.



The most important part of your point was when you said, quote: "I don't think". Implying your own personal interpretation of what it means. You say that homosexually isn't discussed in detail in the bible , but think of like this. Every relationship in the bible is between a man and a woman. Human life is created between a man and a woman.
The concept of homosexual relationships simply did not exist at the time of the Bible. Homosexual sex, sure, but not homosexual relationships. The idea of sexual orientation is only a couple hundred years old.


God created Eve for Adam and together they had children. The passage you discredit that discusses a man lying with another man to be sinful, (Leviticus 18:22), seems pretty blunt. If it straight out says that a man lying with another man is detestable to God, then apparently it is.
Again, look at the verses I posted above. If you've kept your sword from bloodshed, you seem pretty detestable in your god's eyes too.

[abbadabba]

Homosexuality, along with other forms of sexual immorality, is partially responsible for the present AIDS epidemic in the world. This is hardly up for debate, and it is a very serious problem. Sexual Immorality = Death. Just look at Africa if you don't believe it.
It seems to me like most people with AIDS in Africa are heterosexuals. Yep, the statistics back me up on that one.

Those of us who condemn this vigorously are doing so because we care about the continued existence of our civilization - not out of so-called "homophobia."

Bullshit. You're telling me that you'd stop your campaign of hate if a cure for AIDS was discovered tomorrow? Somehow I doubt it.


Homophobic is just a stupid psycho-babble term that doesn't describe any real human condition. Besides it is an ignorant word.
What is ignorant is equivocating on the commonly-used definition of words instead of addressing the actual argument. We both know perfectly well what homophobia is, so let's cease these irrelevant linguistics debates.

[abbadabba]

The point that God rained fire and brimstone on two cities over the matter most likly has something to do with it.According to the Bible, Sodom and Gomorra were destroyed because the citizens were practicing rape, not because they were homosexuals.

How come your god hasn't rained fire and brimstone on San Francisco or Key West or Amsterdam anytime recently?

[abbadabba]

as a matter of fact if the world keeps going like it is there is gonna be nothing but anarchy in the future first it was about the pledge...One nation under GOD..then prayer in school....then the ten commandments....what the hell?? whats next??

If right-wing Christian zealots would stop trying to impose their religion on the rest of the country in the first place, then those controversies would not exist.

[TARABELLE]

Every relationship in the bible is between a man and a woman. What abour Ruth and her mother-in-law? Her love seemed to be more than a platonic relationship.

[Epiphany]

Bull. I have never met a single Christian intent on following everything the Bible says. When is the last time you took the following passages into account?
So I suppose you are the type of person that believes..... "Pluck out thine eye", means to literally pluck your eye out


Christ never once condemned homosexuals, like you do
I did? When did I do this? I used the bible verses you pointed out that said it was destesable in God's eyes, to point out why religious people feel it is wrong. I said that I don't AGREE with it because of what the Bible says. Please show me where I was condemning anyone who practices homosexuality. Apparently it means something if it's mentioned in the bible.


The concept of homosexual relationships simply did not exist at the time of the Bible. Homosexual sex, sure, but not homosexual relationships. The idea of sexual orientation is only a couple hundred years old.
So, you know for a fact that some 2,000 years ago, a man did not have feelings for another man? Were you there? If you honestly don't believe that, then let's look at it like this. Notice the book of Revelation. It is a book of prophecy. Meaning, things that were to happen after it was written. Things of Revelation are happening today. So, if homosexuality was not taking place back then (which I highly doubt that it was not), then the passages that speak against it in the Bible, were prophetically written, knowing that it would happen in the future.


Again, look at the verses I posted above. If you've kept your sword from bloodshed, you seem pretty detestable in your god's eyes too.
Well, if I oppose something that doesn't agree with the word of God, then technically, I am fighting the Christian fight of faith.

As far as Sodom and Gomorrah.... They were destroyed because of violence AND sexual immorality. 1 Corinthians mentiones that male prostitues and homosexual offenders will not inherit the kingdom of God. If you feel that has no meaning, then why is mentioned in the Bible?

If the Bible says something is wrong, I try not to do it. Obviously, no one is perfect. I have friends with different sexual orientations. I don't agree with it, but I don't fear them as you claim I do.


Thanks again, IcE-MaN

[abbadabba]

So I suppose you are the type of person that believes..... "Pluck out thine eye", means to literally pluck your eye out
You're the one who claims that the Bible is fairly straightforward in condemning homosexuals (and probably lots of other groups who lead different lives than you do). If you're willing to allow a more liberal interpretation for "pluck out thine eye" or "keep your sword in bloodshed," why not allow homosexuals the same leeway with biblical passages?



I did? When did I do this? I used the bible verses you pointed out that said it was destesable in God's eyes, to point out why religious people feel it is wrong. I said that I don't AGREE with it because of what the Bible says. Please show me where I was condemning anyone who practices homosexuality. Apparently it means something if it's mentioned in the bible.
The passage I quoted from the Real Live Preacher blog already addressed each verse in which the Bible supposedly condemns homosexuality. You did not respond to it yet.



So, you know for a fact that some 2,000 years ago, a man did not have feelings for another man? Were you there? If you honestly don't believe that, then let's look at it like this. Notice the book of Revelation. It is a book of prophecy. Meaning, things that were to happen after it was written. Things of Revelation are happening today. So, if homosexuality was not taking place back then (which I highly doubt that it was not), then the passages that speak against it in the Bible, were prophetically written, knowing that it would happen in the future.
That is not what I said at all. There was simply no concept of sexual orientation at the time. Remember, the New Testament was written during the dawn of the Roman Empire; a society that was very liberal about sex (at least for men). However, even in ancient Rome there was no concept of "gay" or "straight." Sex was sex regardless of the genders of the individuals involved, and relationships (at least those that people knew about) were only between men and women. The idea of romantic relationships between two men or two women was probably completely alien to St. Paul and the other authors of the New Testament, and so it isn't surprising that they had nothing to say about it.



Well, if I oppose something that doesn't agree with the word of God, then technically, I am fighting the Christian fight of faith.
LOL. So it's OK for you to oppose your god because you're fighting for your faith, but if anyone else does it, then they're despicable in God's eyes? Interesting concept. However, I doubt that Jesus was as egotistical as you seem to be.

As far as Sodom and Gomorrah.... They were destroyed because of violence AND sexual immorality. 1 Corinthians mentiones that male prostitues and homosexual offenders will not inherit the kingdom of God. If you feel that has no meaning, then why is mentioned in the Bible?
I already mentioned this verse in a previous post and explained that "homosexual offenders" is the crude English translation for a Latin phrase that meant "man who solicits a male prostitute." So yes, the Bible appears to condemn male prostitution (for both the buyer and seller), but that is a quite a distance from condemning all homosexuals.

I have friends with different sexual orientations.
Ah, the bigot's classic response... "I don't hate X, I have lots of friends who are X, I just don't want any X's to have the same rights that I do."

I don't agree with it, but I don't fear them as you claim I do.
Then why would you deny them the right to express their love via marriage? Why would you condemn their actions (if not the people themselves) when you aren't free of sin yourself?


Perhaps more Christians should actually start asking the question "What would Jesus do?" instead of just sticking the bumper sticker on their SUVs. I don't claim to know what Jesus would do in every situation, but one thing I'm pretty sure he wouldn't do is go around condemning homosexuals, as the issue was so unimportant he never once spoke about it.

[Epiphany]

You're the one who claims that the Bible is fairly straightforward in condemning homosexuals (and probably lots of other groups who lead different lives than you do). If you're willing to allow a more liberal interpretation for "pluck out thine eye" or "keep your sword in bloodshed," why not allow homosexuals the same leeway with biblical passages"Yes, I said the Bible condemns homosexuals, however, I am not standing outside with paper on a stick, protesting the rights of homosexuality.


However, even in ancient Rome there was no concept of "gay" or "straight." Sex was sex regardless of the genders of the individuals involved, and relationships (at least those that people knew about) were only between men and women. The idea of romantic relationships between two men or two women was probably completely alien to St. Paul and the other authors of the New Testament, and so it isn't surprising that they had nothing to say about it.Speculations have been made about homosexual Roman soldiers, but again, no one really knows because we weren't there. If it was written in the Bible, it must have a meaning.

LOL. So it's OK for you to oppose your god because you're fighting for your faith, but if anyone else does it, then they're despicable in God's eyes? Interesting concept. However, I doubt that Jesus was as egotistical as you seem to be.How am I opposing God when the faith I am fighting for is the faith in him?
LOL... yeah, I love it when people think that because you have faith in God, you have an ego. Being a Christian isn't easy. It's a battle ("Take up your cross daily", "fight the good fight of faith"). You have to be strong to be a Christian because everyone always wants to come against you. Actually, I think that back then some people would probably say that Jesus had an ego. They did persecute him for saying the he was the son of God.

Ah, the bigot's classic response... "I don't hate X, I have lots of friends who are X, I just don't want any X's to have the same rights that I do." Bigot? ahh, again with the labeling I see. I don't sit down with my friends and say, "You evil heathens, you are going to hell". So again, please show me where I personally condmned another for being homosexual. They know where I stand on the issue, and I know where they stand on the issue. If someone wants to practice homosexuality, that is their choice. Unless it is rape or abuse going on behind a bedroom door, it's not on my top priority list of religious concerns. What someone chooses sexually is between them, their partner, and God, not me. However, if I don't agree with something, and I make mention of it, I have the right to do so, just as anyone has the right to speak their mind. You don't know me, so please don't label me, thanks.


Perhaps more Christians should actually start asking the question "What would Jesus do?" instead of just sticking the bumper sticker on their SUVs. I don't claim to know what Jesus would do in every situation, but one thing I'm pretty sure he wouldn't do is go around condemning homosexuals, as the issue was so unimportant he never once spoke about it.Perhaps you should take your own advice. Maybe instead of worrying about what certain Christians are worrying about, you should worry about yourself instead. No one said they claimed to know what Jesus would have said in every single situation. However, if it's written in the Bible what not to do, then I am going to make every effort to avoid doing it. And I will use scriptural references to back up my points.

[IcE-MaN]

Your welcome Ephipany, i can already see its pointless to try to make this guy see any of our points.. i really dont think he believes in Jesus at all or he wouldnt be critizizing what he thinks the bible says and dont say
the way i see it is if a man who once was a athiest done research on the bible to see if it was true and never could find a part of it that wasnt true...then to me everyone should believe in it but my opinion in this topic wont help anything ...but after all it was you that asked a question pointed at "US" christians right?? well we answered them for you.Im not going to push my religion on you at all.but if yuo dont believe...then why the big fuss about what we believe?? you dont see us asking the paegans what they think and why what how when?? or for that matter any religion..... i hope one day you do turn your hear to accept Jesus as you saviour........what you think is what you think..thats you right to express and theres nothing wrong with that .....But you blaming the workds problems on christians is not likely at all ....but what ever you see one day when it happens if the world keeps on its goign to lead to anarchy....and its not gonna be because of christians...

[abbadabba]

Your welcome Ephipany, i can already see its pointless to try to make this guy see any of our points.. i really dont think he believes in Jesus at all or he wouldnt be critizizing what he thinks the bible says and dont say
You are correct that I am not a Christian. However, it seems to me that most atheists and agnostics are more tolerant than most Christian fundamentalists (at least those like Falwell, Robertson, Phelps, etc), and therefore do a better job following the teachings of Jesus than do the vast majority of Christians.

the way i see it is if a man who once was a athiest done research on the bible to see if it was true and never could find a part of it that wasnt true...then to me everyone should believe in it

The Bible is riddled with logical inconsistencies, historical errors, and scientific impossibilities. I'd be happy to cite a few if you'd like. If you can't find any parts of it that aren't true, you either aren't looking very hard or you are so biased that you'll never admit to any errors regardless of overwhelming evidence.


but my opinion in this topic wont help anything ...but after all it was you that asked a question pointed at "US" christians right?? well we answered them for you.Im not going to push my religion on you at all.but if yuo dont believe...then why the big fuss about what we believe??

Because homophobic beliefs HARM a group of people. I don't really care whether or not Christians believe in, say, infant baptism because it's a theological issue that doesn't affect me as a non-Christian. Homophobia, on the other hand, affects society very much in a negative way.



you dont see us asking the paegans what they think and why what how when?? or for that matter any religion..... i hope one day you do turn your hear to accept Jesus as you saviour........what you think is what you think..thats you right to express and theres nothing wrong with that .....But you blaming the workds problems on christians is not likely at all
I'm not blaming this on all Christians. In fact, Christianity has had a very positive impact on a number of great leaders (Mother Theresa, Martin Luther King). I'm talking specifically about groups of bigots like the Christian Coalition, the 700 Club, and some of the posters on this thread.

[Warrior]

I have to laugh. All of the forums I go to and have been to there is usually a section for Christians. Sadly 90+% of the threads are started by people who are not Christians. This makes me wonder: A) How secure are they in thier own beliefs, B) Why are non-Christians so obcessed with Christians? Why did the starter of this thread think that they should call Christians to the carpet for thier religious beliefs? Why should the beliefs of Christians offend non-Christians?
I wonder, why is there so much hatred towards Christians? I don't see these same people challengeing Jewish beliefs or Islamic beliefs. Why is this, non-Christians? Is it that you are programed to hate Christians and accept all others? You are a strange breed of people. You are anti-God as long as the word Christian is attached.

[abbadabba]

I have to laugh. All of the forums I go to and have been to there is usually a section for Christians. Sadly 90+% of the threads are started by people who are not Christians. This makes me wonder: A) How secure are they in thier own beliefs, B) Why are non-Christians so obcessed with Christians? Why did the starter of this thread think that they should call Christians to the carpet for thier religious beliefs? I'm not calling them on their religious beliefs. I'm calling them on the fact that they're discriminatory attitude toward homosexuals is bad for society.


Why should the beliefs of Christians offend non-Christians?
I wonder, why is there so much hatred towards Christians? I don't see these same people challengeing Jewish beliefs or Islamic beliefs. Why is this, non-Christians? Is it that you are programed to hate Christians and accept all others? You are a strange breed of people. You are anti-God as long as the word Christian is attached. If conservative Jewish beliefs or Islamic beliefs dominated my society (the United States), I'm sure I'd take issue with their homophobic positions more frequently. But they don't, so I don't think it's unfair to argue against homophobia from the Christian perspective.

[Warrior]

abbadabba: I do not mean to, but do not care if I do, insult you. You say this:
"If conservative Jewish beliefs or Islamic beliefs dominated my society (the United States), I'm sure I'd take issue with their homophobic positions more frequently. But they don't, so I don't think it's unfair to argue against homophobia from the Christian perspective."
And this shows me that you do not know who is controling your "society", ("your" being an abstact word here as it is not "your" society. Some say it is "our society").
Let me ask you this: What is YOUR obsession with homosexuallity? Bluntly, you say that Christians should not be concerned with men shoving thier dicks up the hairy shitholes of other men. Why not? It is our religious and moral beliefs that men do not ass fuck men; they do not suck peckers; they do not marry. These things in our eyes, and in the eyes of our God are WRONG. Should we approve them then we are saying to our GOD that we love the things and the acts of this world above Him.

"I'm not calling them on their religious beliefs. I'm calling them on the fact that they're discriminatory attitude toward homosexuals is bad for society." - More from you.
Show, don't discrimatorialy dictate, how opposition to homosexuality is "bad for society".
Every forum, on every site has an individual like you; One who has no origanal thought, but sees Christians as easy marks to pick on. WELL, HELLO, and ABRACADABRA - I am not your usual "Christian"! I am like the Jesus who took a whip to the money changers in the Temples: I am here to kick some ass! You want to curse or argue against MY GOD, and MY SAVIOR? Then find a way to come through me. Curse my God and I promise you HIS wrath! Pray to your Buddah or whomever you want to, but let me assure you, when you offend the only GOD, then you wreck havoc upon your own soul!
Be sweet and gentle unto your faggot brethern, but always remember the doubt and the guilt you feel does not come from your conscionce, but from your soul.

[Lilyrayne]

I am tired of getting picked on for being a Christian, especially when I don't pick on anyone else!! Why in the world do people assume that all Christians are alike, anyway? That goes for generations too, why do people assume that today's generation of Christians are anything like yesterday's generation of Christians? Yesterdays generation might have been homophobes, but I'm pretty sure that todays generation for the most part aren't, and it continues to improve. So where does anyone get off saying that Christians are homophobes, anyway? How about you let go of the stereotypes and actually sit down and get to know a decent Christian?

[Real American]

I hade to make this in a couple of posts. Apparently 16,678 characters is to long. Please read it all and soak it all in before replying. Thankyou


Hello there,

Let me start off by saying that I am not perfect. I do not view myself as better than anyone here or elsewhere. I will not condem you for your beliefs, and I would ask that you return the favor. Now, let's begin from the begining.

Heterosexuals act on their desires without being condemned by the Christian world, so why should homosexuals be any different?[quote] Premarital sex is condemed. Even to the older generations, some of the things that happen behind a closed door in a marriage is condemed. Please think of the whole picture before you make a statement like that.


[quote]I think one of the biggest problems with the views on Christians is that there are so many people out there that say they are Christian but have never sat down & thought anything out. Good point. To even further it, there are a lot of people that think they are Christains, and call themselves Christains, but miss it entirely.

Adultery is NOT the same thing as homosexual sex or heterosexual sex, and you know it. Adultery is immoral because it actually HARMS someone. Sex, whether gay or straight, harms no one.Sorry man, but all sins are the same. Murder bares the same as a lie in the eyes of God. So, when you want to ask why Christains condeme it, there you go. On a commical note, speaking of harming. I can only imagine the pain it would be to have something the size of a penis shoved inside of me. I mean, I had a lower GI, and that was very uncomfortable. Oh, and can you research for me what was the largest spread of AIDS when it surfaced?

with one very terrible new STD, which could have just as easily sprang up during any point in human history. Ahhh, but it didn't spring up in any other part in human history did it? That's like saying "what if". What if didn't happen, so it is of no use here.Every other STD is declining thanks to us sinful, devil-worshipping atheists who actually take the time to educate kids and third-world foreigners about sex...which you Christians tend to be opposed to. Who said anything about being opposed to learning about sex? When my son comes to me and asks me questions, I will explain it to him. I will also explain to him that though sex is a very enjoyable ordeal, it is better off with one woman that can share that bond with him.since you disagree with my opinion that freedom is a good thing.With freedom comes responsability. I support freedom. But I will never support homosexual marriage. That is a slap in the face of God's creation.

How arrogant of you to assume that you know what God is thinking. Doesn't the Bible also say to fix your OWN life before you go condemning others? Of course, people like yourself ignore any parts of the Bible that don't suit you. Is your own life so completely sinless that you consider yourself better than homosexuals?This is such an overused attack on real Christains. It's like the last thing you know to say when you have nothing else left to say. The part of the Bible you are refering to is a good point. However, we as Christains are also instructed to spread The Word of God. This includes everything in The Bible. You call her arrogent, wouldn't you be considered arrogent for assuming she is wrong in what The Bible tells us, therefore making it look like you know what God is thinking? The Bible is a Christains foundation. Many people before you, and many people after you will attempt to knock it off course. You will attempt to persuade people into believing it is a bunch of lies. For the most part, you will fail.

It is the church's job to teach love & mercy & the church members' job to learn these lessons. To be more specific, it is the Churchs job to teach The Word of God by using The Bible as it's lesson planner. If you go to a church that doesn't teach from The Bible, then you are going to the wrong church.

love everyone, no sin is unforgiveable, be a shining light to others and bring peace to all you can.The only unforgivable sin is to deny God.

did you hear him personally or you just going by what people told you?I'm sorry, do you believe that the Civil War happened? Were you there or did you just read about it?

This is a rant from the Real Live Preacher's blog. It pretty much summarizes my opinion of homophobic "Christians."[quote] Should I assume that if I think homosexuality to be wrong you think I am a homophobe? If that is what you think, you are wrong. That peace you coppied and pasted from where it was from, failed to mention that a true Christain tries as best he can to do what is right. No one is perfect. We will always fall down. Be it two pages or five thousand pages, homosexuality is wrong. I will also point out that the author of that bit failed to talk about what was mentioned in those two pages. Nice attepmt at killing The Bible once again, but still, a failure.

[quote]Part Three – ExegesisOk, so, apparently, when you read words that are clear and understandable reguarding this issue, you still want to deny the validity. That's fine, as I stated before, there will always be someone trying to discredit The Bible. Now, sence you quote The Bible, and use it in your arguments, am I safe to assume that you believe God created us? Oh wait, I want to do this using God's widom He gave me without reverting to The Bible. OK, so, somehow we as humans were created. Male species were given some form of a penis, and female species were given some form of a vagina and furthermore some species were given both male and female reproductive organs. Some were given the ability to reproduce soley by themselves. Following along so far? So what does everything living share in common with each other? Ahh yes, the ability to reproduce. Now, let's concentrate on the humans. How are the male and female reproductive oragans used? Certainly a male penis would not work with another male penis, nor a vagina work with another vagina. Now, with that in mind, what is one of the basic and raw desire shared between all species on this planet? Survival. Can two men reproduce? Can two women? If you want to discredit The Bible to say that homosexuality is ok, then I shall discredit you to show that science says homosexuality is wrong.

Those of us who condemn this vigorously are doing so because we care about the continued existence of our civilization - not out of so-called "homophobia." Homophobic is just a stupid psycho-babble term that doesn't describe any real human condition. Besides it is an ignorant word.
"Homo" in Greek means "same"
"Phobia" in Greek means "fear"
So, strictly rendered the word means "Fear of Similarity."
I don't believe that is what you mean when you use the word. Three letters: LOL.
Awsome.

[Real American]

Part 2

When is the last time you took the following passages into account? Was it not you that put down those that use parts of The Bible for their own use and threw out the rest? And you want to call me a hypocrite? Ok sir, I'll play along. You skipped some vital parts, I'll fill them in.
Numbers 31:1-20
1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people."
3 So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites and to carry out the LORD's vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel." 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.
7 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba-the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho. [1]
13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army-the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds-who returned from the battle.
15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
19 "All of you who have killed anyone or touched anyone who was killed must stay outside the camp seven days. On the third and seventh days you must purify yourselves and your captives. 20 Purify every garment as well as everything made of leather, goat hair or wood."


Hrmmm, what might be going on there? Is it a war? Shall I continue?



Ezekiel 9:1-11

Idolaters Killed

1 Then I heard him call out in a loud voice, "Bring the guards of the city here, each with a weapon in his hand." 2 And I saw six men coming from the direction of the upper gate, which faces north, each with a deadly weapon in his hand. With them was a man clothed in linen who had a writing kit at his side. They came in and stood beside the bronze altar.
3 Now the glory of the God of Israel went up from above the cherubim, where it had been, and moved to the threshold of the temple. Then the LORD called to the man clothed in linen who had the writing kit at his side 4 and said to him, "Go throughout the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the detestable things that are done in it."
5 As I listened, he said to the others, "Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. 6 Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary." So they began with the elders who were in front of the temple.
7 Then he said to them, "Defile the temple and fill the courts with the slain. Go!" So they went out and began killing throughout the city. 8 While they were killing and I was left alone, I fell facedown, crying out, "Ah, Sovereign LORD ! Are you going to destroy the entire remnant of Israel in this outpouring of your wrath on Jerusalem?"
9 He answered me, "The sin of the house of Israel and Judah is exceedingly great; the land is full of bloodshed and the city is full of injustice. They say, 'The LORD has forsaken the land; the LORD does not see.' 10 So I will not look on them with pity or spare them, but I will bring down on their own heads what they have done."
11 Then the man in linen with the writing kit at his side brought back word, saying, "I have done as you commanded."


Are you learning anything yet? More you ask?



Deuteronomy 20:1-20

1 When you go to war against your enemies and see horses and chariots and an army greater than yours, do not be afraid of them, because the LORD your God, who brought you up out of Egypt, will be with you. 2 When you are about to go into battle, the priest shall come forward and address the army. 3 He shall say: "Hear, O Israel, today you are going into battle against your enemies. Do not be fainthearted or afraid; do not be terrified or give way to panic before them. 4 For the LORD your God is the one who goes with you to fight for you against your enemies to give you victory."
5 The officers shall say to the army: "Has anyone built a new house and not dedicated it? Let him go home, or he may die in battle and someone else may dedicate it. 6 Has anyone planted a vineyard and not begun to enjoy it? Let him go home, or he may die in battle and someone else enjoy it. 7 Has anyone become pledged to a woman and not married her? Let him go home, or he may die in battle and someone else marry her." 8 Then the officers shall add, "Is any man afraid or fainthearted? Let him go home so that his brothers will not become disheartened too." 9 When the officers have finished speaking to the army, they shall appoint commanders over it.
10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.
16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy [1] them-the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites-as the LORD your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God.
19 When you lay siege to a city for a long time, fighting against it to capture it, do not destroy its trees by putting an ax to them, because you can eat their fruit. Do not cut them down. Are the trees of the field people, that you should besiege them? [2] 20 However, you may cut down trees that you know are not fruit trees and use them to build siege works until the city at war with you falls.


Hrmm, directions to the Israelites on how to deal with those that would take away and pervert what God has given them. Wow, that kinda fits with todays ordeals involving Israel and Pakistan. I will stop with those, but just to let you know, the rest of the parts you so effortlessly "burned" in your "fire" explained it all.



Christ never once condemned homosexuals, like you do. I never condemned a homosexual either. Just homosexuality.



How come your god hasn't rained fire and brimstone on San Francisco or Key West or Amsterdam anytime recently? 9/11?



Lastly, I make a reply to Warrior. Please pray before you post. Ask God for the wisom and clearity and love that he will give you. Ask him to guide you in your posts. Your use of foul language and hostility in this post is sad. This is the kind of attitude that non Christains see and hold against us.


In closing, I do not fear homosexuals. I do not deny the ability for one man to love another, nor one woman to love another. My close friend, whom I have known for years and years is a male that I love. I love him with all my heart, and would just as easily die for him as I would my son. The thing that I do not like is the act of homosexuality in itself. Just like lieing, cheating, killing, stealing, I do not like these. However, I will continue to show brotherly love and compassion for a human. I just refuse to accept the sin. Just as you are tired of us as Christains "forcing" our views and lifestyles on you, we are tired of homosexuals attempting to force their lifestyle on us. Sadly today marriage is no longer a bond between a man and woman before God. For a lot of people marriage is a "if I feel like doing it I'm going to do it" type thing. Will I vote to allow homosexuals the right to be married? No I wont. Do I think it matters in the end? No I don't. This is all predicted in The Bible that you so want to discredit. In the end, you will see.

[Epiphany]

All I have to say in response to Real American's post is: Amen to that!!!

[Warrior]

From Real American: "Lastly, I make a reply to Warrior. Please pray before you post. Ask God for the wisom and clearity and love that he will give you. Ask him to guide you in your posts. Your use of foul language and hostility in this post is sad. This is the kind of attitude that non Christains see and hold against us."

I appreciate your scorn. You said to me things that I am sure God Himself guided you in saying. But God also tells me that the end is near and to speak loudly and in the ways of the people, in thier tongues, for this is what they will understand. I am blessed, for God Himself guides my hand. I pray to God, not only before I "speek" but as I speek. And He tells me that you will know by these words why I am as I am. My name is "WARRIOR", I fight for God. I am the mercenary among His people. I am typing only what He says I should. Others who will not understand are at this moment lost, but you are not, you know who I am. I chill as I write. You know me. You know we have a reason "under Gods Heaven".

[abbadabba]

And this shows me that you do not know who is controling your "society", ("your" being an abstact word here as it is not "your" society. Some say it is "our society").

Oh does it now? I'd say that Christian thought dominates the United States a hell of a lot more than Judaism or Islam. Or are you also one of those anti-semitic conspiracy theorists in addition to being a homophobe?


Let me ask you this: What is YOUR obsession with homosexuallity? Bluntly, you say that Christians should not be concerned with men shoving thier dicks up the hairy shitholes of other men. Why not? It is our religious and moral beliefs that men do not ass fuck men; they do not suck peckers; they do not marry. These things in our eyes, and in the eyes of our God are WRONG. Should we approve them then we are saying to our GOD that we love the things and the acts of this world above Him.

What kind of Christian would use such filthy language?


Show, don't discrimatorialy dictate, how opposition to homosexuality is "bad for society".

In the same way that racism and sexism are bad for society. They harm minorities by denying them equal rights.



I am like the Jesus who took a whip to the money changers in the Temples: I am here to kick some ass!

Ah, I see. It's wrong for two men or two women to love each other, but it's OK for Christians to use filthy language and compare themselves to Jesus. Makes perfect sense to me.


That goes for generations too, why do people assume that today's generation of Christians are anything like yesterday's generation of Christians? Yesterdays generation might have been homophobes, but I'm pretty sure that todays generation for the most part aren't, and it continues to improve.

I apologize, Bree. I didn't mean to imply that ALL Christians were homophobes. However, while the situation may be improving, a quick look at this thread will clearly show that homophobia is alive and well among Christians.


On a commical note, speaking of harming. I can only imagine the pain it would be to have something the size of a penis shoved inside of me.

It's not "harm" if both participants are willing.


Oh, and can you research for me what was the largest spread of AIDS when it surfaced?

Again, that's not a good argument against every single homosexual relationship in the world. It is, however, a fairly good argument for monogamous relationships or at the very least for responsible sex.


With freedom comes responsability. I support freedom. But I will never support homosexual marriage. That is a slap in the face of God's creation.

Unless I am mistaken, we have separation of church and state in this country. Your bigoted opinion of what God wants is hardly relevant to the legal status of homosexual relationships. If our government wishes to deny gays the right to marry or to only grant them civil unions, then it should deny heterosexuals the right to marry or only grant them civil unions as well. I think a better solution is to allow anyone to marry who wants to, regardless of their sexual orientation. It doesn't mean your church has to allow it, just that the government does.


You call her arrogent, wouldn't you be considered arrogent for assuming she is wrong in what The Bible tells us, therefore making it look like you know what God is thinking?

No. I'm not a Christian or a theist, so I don't claim to know what God is thinking. I'm simply refuting points from a biblical perspective, since I did start this thread on a Christian forum.


I'm sorry, do you believe that the Civil War happened? Were you there or did you just read about it?

Umm, that's a bit different. There's plenty of tangible evidence that the Civil War happened. There's very little (no?) evidence that anything in the Bible is the word of God. However, that's a separate debate, and I have no problem with anyone who believes that it is as long as they don't use that belief to harm others.


Now, sence you quote The Bible, and use it in your arguments, am I safe to assume that you believe God created us?

No. I'm an atheist.


Male species were given some form of a penis, and female species were given some form of a vagina and furthermore some species were given both male and female reproductive organs. Some were given the ability to reproduce soley by themselves. Following along so far? So what does everything living share in common with each other? Ahh yes, the ability to reproduce. Now, let's concentrate on the humans. How are the male and female reproductive oragans used? Certainly a male penis would not work with another male penis, nor a vagina work with another vagina. Now, with that in mind, what is one of the basic and raw desire shared between all species on this planet? Survival. Can two men reproduce? Can two women? If you want to discredit The Bible to say that homosexuality is ok, then I shall discredit you to show that science says homosexuality is wrong.

LOL. Science doesn't make moral judgments. Just because two homosexuals can't reproduce with each other doesn't mean that science says it's "wrong." By that logic, would you also contend that a person who is born sterile should live a life of celibacy, since it would be "wrong" for them to ever have sex with another person? What do you mean by "wrong" anyway? Unnatural? That's debateable, but even if homosexuality were unnatural, so is wearing clothing. Do you consider that to be wrong?


I never condemned a homosexual either. Just homosexuality.

Christ never once condemned homosexuals OR homosexuality.


Just as you are tired of us as Christains "forcing" our views and lifestyles on you, we are tired of homosexuals attempting to force their lifestyle on us.

Most homosexuals just want to live their lives without being persecuted. If heterosexuals are allowed to go places in public together, homosexuals should be allowed the same freedom without being accused of "flaunting their sexuality" or "forcing their lifestyle" on other people.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Most homosexuals just want to live their lives without being persecuted. If heterosexuals are allowed to go places in public together, homosexuals should be allowed the same freedom without being accused of "flaunting their sexuality" or "forcing their lifestyle" on other people.
I have to say after reading this whole thread...I agree with you abbadabba. Yes, I am Christian (ooh I'm the worse kind...I'm Catholic ;) ) but I also follow Hare Krishna (but that's a different story) and I can tell you that whether or not it is wrong or it is a sin or you just don't agree with it....you can not condem people for being homosexuals. No one is asking you to turn around and marry a person of the same sex, but if they want to it is up to them...in the end we are all people, further more, in the end we aren't even these bodies, not even material nature. We are spirit soul and regardless of it all, I believe that what we are is more measured on how we love, regardless of whether or not we don't agree with their actions, it doesn't matter. You say that homosexuallity is against God's will, maybe it is, but I think that hate is more against God's will. This forum is a Hippie forum and in the end, shouldn't it be about peace and love, regardless of who you are, your nationality, your sexuality...because in the end we are all the same, spirit soul...and for now we are human and if we want to get on to that better place, we better start showing God that we can love one another while we're here before he'll let us go to his kingdom to do it.

Now I'm not saying that I'm perfect, no one is. That's why we are human. The point I'm trying to make, is instead of pointing fingers at other's, be aware and improve yourself...

I don't know if I'm totally off, if I am, ignore me...and if I'm not, don't blast me around too much ;)

[Real American]

abbadabba, your argument's against The Bible and why I believe the act of homosexuality is wrong are null and void now. I presented you with logical and factual statements. You attempted to take thing's out of context in The Bible. I pointed you out and yet you have no reply for this. You still try to twist science itself to support homosexuality. Don't be a coward and run away from your mistakes here. Stand up and put up a decent fight for your beliefs or stop posting all together.

You mention people that are unable to bare children. Do I think it is wrong for them to be married and have sex? No, marriage is something God created to allow a man and a woman to get closer than ever before. My mother in father for example; met each other, fell in love, married and were unable to have children. After years of testing and trying medicinal cures, they decided to let God deal with it. Not to long after that decision, my natural mother delivered me without the knowlege of my natural father. He wanted me aborted. My fathers sister in Tn worked for child social services. She gave my parents a call concerning a child that was not wanted and needed a good family. My parents got on there knees and prayed. 15 minutes later they called my aunt back and said they were on the road. 12 hours later, my new parents were in Memphis Tn and saw me for the first time. You want proof that God exists? Do I think them trying to have a child was wrong? Seriously, I know you are grabbing at whatever you can, but your attempt this time is faulty.

We were not created to have sex with the same sex. It is a perversion. Soon, after homosexual marriage is allowed, some person somewhere will want to marry their dog. Another will want to marry his sheep. Another his child. A brother and sister will want to be married and it will get worse. Why stop? Why limit these people?

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

abbadabba, your argument's against The Bible and why I believe the act of homosexuality is wrong are null and void now. I presented you with logical and factual statements. You attempted to take thing's out of context in The Bible. I pointed you out and yet you have no reply for this. You still try to twist science itself to support homosexuality. Don't be a coward and run away from your mistakes here. Stand up and put up a decent fight for your beliefs or stop posting all together.

You mention people that are unable to bare children. Do I think it is wrong for them to be married and have sex? No, marriage is something God created to allow a man and a woman to get closer than ever before. My mother in father for example; met each other, fell in love, married and were unable to have children. After years of testing and trying medicinal cures, they decided to let God deal with it. Not to long after that decision, my natural mother delivered me without the knowlege of my natural father. He wanted me aborted. My fathers sister in Tn worked for child social services. She gave my parents a call concerning a child that was not wanted and needed a good family. My parents got on there knees and prayed. 15 minutes later they called my aunt back and said they were on the road. 12 hours later, my new parents were in Memphis Tn and saw me for the first time. You want proof that God exists? Do I think them trying to have a child was wrong? Seriously, I know you are grabbing at whatever you can, but your attempt this time is faulty.

We were not created to have sex with the same sex. It is a perversion. Soon, after homosexual marriage is allowed, some person somewhere will want to marry their dog. Another will want to marry his sheep. Another his child. A brother and sister will want to be married and it will get worse. Why stop? Why limit these people?
I don't like to blast people, but don't you think you are being a little naive? A person marrying their dog and a person marrying another person of the same sex are two different things entirely. If two responsible people want to get married and raise a family, who are you to say they can't? It doesn't matter whether they are two men or two women. We are so afraid of what is different than what we are used to that we forget that regardless of what people do they are still people. Are you free from doing anything wrong? No. Neither am I. So, say these people are wrong, it's not up to you to tell them. It's none of your buissiness. No one is hurting anyone by getting married. I see only love, and I think love is an ideal we could all do a little more with. Put yourself in a homosexual person's shoes. Here you have in your hands something you cannot control and something that is hated by society. So, you can run from what you really are and be miserable, or you can go out and find someone to love. Say you do find someone to love, and you two want to raise a child. Any respectable woman can tell you its her right to want to raise a child, and so many orphaned children need a family. So, live from house to house, or have the child live with two people who love them. Now, you both want to provide for the child, so you want a legal union to have a household bank account, but you are denied because you are a homosexual. That's like pushing ourselves back to when slaves were allowed to be married religiously but not legally...it's not any different. So, we have all this freedom, but still you are denied because you are different...

...so before you go off about how being a homosexual is wrong and perverted...think about how it may be to be one... we are all brainwashed to want the samethings: a home, a family, a tele, ect. and regardless of what you believe or who you love....you are still a person who wants these things and shouldn't be denied them because you are different...

...and for some reason I just can't let myself believe that God would mean to make people, some who might love him even more than some heterosexuals, suffer because they are different. I don't think I could believe this. And for some reason it were, God forgives them and loves them regardless...so why can't we. We only want to look for the bad things all the time...why can't we ever look for the good...?

[mynameiskc]

i say let them get married, and i'm a christian. we don't live in a theocracy. and the humanist in me says that everyone should be able to have love and companionship, this is a pretty hard life without it. if it's with a person of the same sex, then so be it. i don't completely trust the bible anyway. i trust god, i trust christ's message. words written on paper by people striving to control one another is entirely another matter.

[abbadabba]

abbadabba, your argument's against The Bible and why I believe the act of homosexuality is wrong are null and void now. I presented you with logical and factual statements. You attempted to take thing's out of context in The Bible. I pointed you out and yet you have no reply for this. You still try to twist science itself to support homosexuality. Don't be a coward and run away from your mistakes here. Stand up and put up a decent fight for your beliefs or stop posting all together.LOL. How did I try to "twist science itself"? So far, you're the only one in this thread who has mentioned biology, and it was to make an ignorant bigoted argument. Why don't YOU answer my argument? How does science make moral judgments? It doesn't. The whole argument that "homosexuality is unnatural" isn't just incorrect, it's stupid. Even if it was unnatural, so what? How does that make it wrong? Wearing clothes isn't natural either.

You mention people that are unable to bare children. Do I think it is wrong for them to be married and have sex? No, marriage is something God created to allow a man and a woman to get closer than ever before. The gospel according to YOU. Why don't you stop trying to force your beliefs on the rest of society by preventing two loving people from marrying each other? If marriage is about people getting close to one another, and not about sex, then why can't you distinguish same-sex marriage from homosexual sex? Is it that you think that NO ONE who sins should be allowed to get married? Marriage would be quite uncommon indeed if that were the case.

My mother in father for example; met each other, fell in love, married and were unable to have children. After years of testing and trying medicinal cures, they decided to let God deal with it. Not to long after that decision, my natural mother delivered me without the knowlege of my natural father. He wanted me aborted. My fathers sister in Tn worked for child social services. She gave my parents a call concerning a child that was not wanted and needed a good family. My parents got on there knees and prayed. 15 minutes later they called my aunt back and said they were on the road. 12 hours later, my new parents were in Memphis Tn and saw me for the first time. You want proof that God exists? Do I think them trying to have a child was wrong? Seriously, I know you are grabbing at whatever you can, but your attempt this time is faulty.It is you who is trying to grab at whatever you can. This entire paragraph is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand: homophobia and Christianity.

We were not created to have sex with the same sex. It is a perversion. Soon, after homosexual marriage is allowed, some person somewhere will want to marry their dog. Another will want to marry his sheep. Another his child. A brother and sister will want to be married and it will get worse. Why stop? Why limit these people?
Ah, I see you're a Santorum Republican. How charming. But earlier, you said that the basis for marriage isn't sex, so what does "being created to have sex with the same sex" have to do with it? And to answer your question: A dog, a sheep, and a child are unable to consent to marriage. Two homosexual adults ARE able to consent to marriage.

[Warrior]

I love liberals. They try so hard to be so accepting of....of,..well,...of,uhhhhmm, I know - everything that is vile and base or contrary to the wishes of God. But there are some things that they wont accept and will fight tooth and nail to destroy. These things include, but are not limited to, Christianity, free thought, guns, conservatives, free speach, (unless it is them speeking),..

Unfortunately anyone who disagrees with a liberal gets a title. Such as here. If you are a Christian who opposes homosexuality,you are automatically a "homophobe". By being disgusted by the thought of homosexuality, we are "homophobes". Curiously, is there a title for homosexuals that are disgusted by normal sex? What kind of "phobe" are they? How about homos who hate Christians who are "homophobes"? Surely there is some word that describes these people. I can think of a couple, but I doubt my post would make it onto the board. Just as two politically incorrect messages have already been deleted.

[Real American]

And yet you still ignore it. Here is what I am tired of, you admit to not being a Christain. Yet you continue to attempt to use God in your arguments. You have no relationship with him, therefore, quit using him in your arguments. Now, stop beating around the bush and tell me why you decided it would be ok for you to pull out bits and pieces of The Bible and the "crumble" up the rest of the scripture and throw it in the "fire"? Come on, all this talk, and 2 posts later and you still haven't answered. In one postI covered everything from the begining of this thread. Quit playing games here.

Oh, as soon as you stop trying to force homosexual marriage on me and my country I'll stop posting here to show you how it is wrong. Besides, you are the one that started this thread were you not? Were you hoping to gain support from a group of pot smoking liberals? In reality, your little "tantrum" has only strengthened my resolve and my faith.

i say let them get married, and i'm a christian. we don't live in a theocracy. and the humanist in me says that everyone should be able to have love and companionship, this is a pretty hard life without it. if it's with a person of the same sex, then so be it. i don't completely trust the bible anyway. i trust god, i trust christ's message. words written on paper by people striving to control one another is entirely another matter. This person here just prooved my point. A lot of people think they are Christains. You keep telling yourself that. In your journy with The Lord, have you ever prayed and asked for the Holy Spirit to guid you and show you what is correct? Have you ever asked for knowlege concerning The Bible? For you to say you don't trust The Bible just shows your lack of understanding and faith.

Oh yes, and one last thing to abba. Reply to what I have asked for, and I'll continue on and reply to all of your questions. Until you do that, everything you say is just a last gasp of air before you drown in your self pitty and perverted dreams.

[abbadabba]

I'll reply to Real American's posts because he appears to simply be misguided. I will not, however, continue to reply to Warrior's posts because he is a complete idiot and beyond hope. Not only is he a homophobe, but he is an anti-semite. He is clearly so blinded by hate that no amount of reason can get him to change his mind. To quote him from another thread:

Yes, let us be super-sensitive to the poor jewish people and thier so-called holocaust. Let us not look at both sides of the equation.What a VERY tolerant individual you are...

Now then, on to the main event:

And yet you still ignore it. Here is what I am tired of, you admit to not being a Christain. Yet you continue to attempt to use God in your arguments. You have no relationship with him, therefore, quit using him in your arguments. I posted this topic on a Christian forum. If I expect any response other than "duhh...my god says fags=bad lol!" then I'd better cite scripture. Wouldn't you agree? I'd be happy to argue the point from a secular perspective, but I doubt many Christians would play along. If you are, I'd be glad to.


Now, stop beating around the bush and tell me why you decided it would be ok for you to pull out bits and pieces of The Bible and the "crumble" up the rest of the scripture and throw it in the "fire"? Come on, all this talk, and 2 posts later and you still haven't answered. In one postI covered everything from the begining of this thread. Quit playing games here.
Pulling bits and pieces of the Bible is exactly what Christian homophobes do. If you truly believe that the Bible is the word of God - EVERY SENTENCE OF IT - then it shouldn't matter whether or not I present you with bits of it. You'd better be willing to do everything the Bible tells you to.


Oh, as soon as you stop trying to force homosexual marriage on me and my country I'll stop posting here to show you how it is wrong.
Absolutely not. I will continue to fight for civil rights.

This person here just prooved my point. A lot of people think they are Christains. You keep telling yourself that. In your journy with The Lord, have you ever prayed and asked for the Holy Spirit to guid you and show you what is correct? Have you ever asked for knowlege concerning The Bible? For you to say you don't trust The Bible just shows your lack of understanding and faith.
Yawn. An intolerant Christian criticizing a more intelligent Christian for actually questioning her own beliefs. Did you ever stop and think that maybe it's YOU who lacks understanding and faith? Who are you to claim that you know everything that your god meant in the Bible?

Oh yes, and one last thing to abba. Reply to what I have asked for, and I'll continue on and reply to all of your questions. Until you do that, everything you say is just a last gasp of air before you drown in your self pitty and perverted dreams.You didn't respond to a single point I made in my previous post.

[Epiphany]

Unfortunately anyone who disagrees with a liberal gets a title. Such as here. If you are a Christian who opposes homosexuality,you are automatically a "homophobe". By being disgusted by the thought of homosexuality, we are "homophobes". Curiously, is there a title for homosexuals that are disgusted by normal sex? What kind of "phobe" are they? How about homos who hate Christians who are "homophobes"? Surely there is some word that describes these people. I can think of a couple, but I doubt my post would make it onto the board. Just as two politically incorrect messages have already been deleted.

Exactly... if you are Christian, and you oppose something because there is mention of it being against God's will in the Bible, automatically, you are condemned as being close minded. What is amusing is that, the same people who are calling you close minded, are not being open minded to your faith, so it's the pot calling the kettle black.

[LuciferSam]

That's kinda silly. That would make everybody close-minded one way or another. That's too much relativism even for me...

[Epiphany]

That's the point... everyone is close minded in some way or another. It's human nature.

[abbadabba]

That's the point... everyone is close minded in some way or another. It's human nature.
Sorry, that is not an acceptable excuse. I don't see crowds of homosexuals on the streets protesting Christian marriage. If that ever happens, I'll be the first to support your right to marry.

[Kandahar]

As a Christian, I'd just like to say that people like Epiphany, Warrior, and Real American disgust me and do NOT represent the vast majority of Christians. They are a very vocal minority that give us all a bad name. I don't know how God feels about homosexuality, but two things I do know: 1) Jesus said not to try to take the speck out of your neighbor's eye when you have a log in your own. 2) Marriage, as it is currently defined by our legal system, is a civil right. There's no logical reason to deny gays the right to marry other than prejudice, pure and simple.Abbadabba, I hope you'll keep an open mind and not scorn all Christians just because of a few Bible-beating rednecks from the South.

[Epiphany]

Actually, what's NOT accpetable is you judging everyone. You assume that since I am a Christian, I must be homophobic. So, do you assume that if all my friends jumped off a bridge, I would as well?


No, everyone being close minded to some degree isn't an excuse. It's a fact. You want to talk about everyone being close minded, when you are close minded to Christians opposing something that they feel is wrong because that is what their faith in Christ teaches them. So, us Christians are being close minded to something we have faith in, and you are being close minded to our faith. In the end, we are all being close minded in some way, shape, or form. That is how human nature works. No one is open minded to every single thing in this world.

As I said, I personally, am not out protesting homosexual marriages. There are way too many other causes that I would like to contribute my time to rather than worrying about two people of the same sex getting married.

[maryjaneguitargurl]

theres homophobes in any relegion.


peace
chickens

[LuciferSam]

Heh, so you're criticizing someone for "judging everyone," specifically, judging people who in turn judge people by sexuality.

Your model of closed-mindless is rather convoluted, but anyway, even within that model, some people can be more close-minded than others. I don't know if it's exactly "close-minded" to not unquestionably accept dogma, it doesn't hurt to question doctrine every now and then. I think simply swallowing everything your religion tells you without critically thinking about it is being particularly closed-minded.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

Yes, I must agree that I don't think you could except every single thing they tell you anyway...some of it, when all layed out, is quite hypocritical...it contradicts itself terribly sometimes...in any religion, not just Christianity...

[Epiphany]

Heh, so you're criticizing someone for "judging everyone," specifically, judging people who in turn judge people by sexuality.Your model of closed-mindless is rather convoluted, but anyway, even within that model, some people can be more close-minded than others. I don't know if it's exactly "close-minded" to not unquestionably accept dogma, it doesn't hurt to question doctrine every now and then.
Actually, I am criticizing him for assuming that because a group of people who have faith appear this way, the whole bunch of them must. Just as the friends jumping off a bridge example I used. Just because I am a Christian, doesn't mean that I share the exact same opinions as every other Christian in the world, which is the way he is putting it. He chose to say, "Why are Christians such homophobes".... He should have said, "Why are SOME Christians such homophobes". But he is putting everyone in the same category, assuming that all us Christians share one brain and think the same exact thoughts.
If he was making an assumption about anything else, my statement would be the same. You cannot assume that every person is the same way. It has nothing to do with him accepting faith, it's him being close minded about not respecting the fact that I have the freedom to believe in whatever I choose to believe in. I hate when people always try to to throw out close mindedness when one sticks to something they believe in. I have issues where I am open to both sides, and other issues where I only choose one side. Find me someone who is open to both sides of a topic on EVERY single topic in this entire world.




I think simply swallowing everything your religion tells you without critically thinking about it is being particularly closed-minded.
Which just proves my point. How is one to know how I feel about a situation without asking me specifically? If I want to know what you think, do I ask your group of friends? No, I ask you as an individual. I don't assume that your entire group shares the same opinion on everything, which is what he was doing when he made the first post.

I don't know anyone who, "swallows", everything that their religions tells them. Again, because not all people think the same thing!

[Jozak]

---First off to the original poster, stop making generalizations.

---Secondly, I can tell you a few things about myself, a Christian.

---I am not a hippy. I have very "liberal" views socially but economically I am very "conservative."
Social Liberal + Economic conservaitve= Libertarian (for the most part)

---I'm Catholic, although my church is against it, I don't have a problem one bit with homosexuals or homosexuality.

---I support civil unions or gay marriges recognized by the state, becasue it is obviously separate (or supposed to be) but the problem is evangelical Protestants and some Catholics try to push their morals into legislation. (I am against abortion for legal reasons, not moral/religious ones, for example).

---I don't think gays are going to hell.


---Conclusion: Gay civil unions/marriges should be allowed, if 2 gay people want to get married, what business is it of mine anyway?

[LuciferSam]

Which just proves my point. How is one to know how I feel about a situation without asking me specifically? If I want to know what you think, do I ask your group of friends? No, I ask you as an individual. I don't assume that your entire group shares the same opinion on everything, which is what he was doing when he made the first post.

I don't know anyone who, "swallows", everything that their religions tells them. Again, because not all people think the same thing!
Point taken. I have known some people that do absorb everything their religion tells them though, I suppose that influences my view on religious people as a whole.

[Dizzy Man]

Well, I was about to point out that Christians are not homophobic, but looks like several beaten me to it.

it does specifically say in the Bible that being Gay is wrong.Yeah, right next to the part that says having blue eyes is wrong!

[plumb]

Jesus never once mentioned homosexuality?
this is a pretty unconvincing point. jesus also never mentioned child molestation. but no one would try to argue that pedophelia was ok. nor would they say that a pedophile was born that way. nor would anyone say that a person who wants to have sex with little kids shouldn't refrain themselves from acting out on that attraction. but anyway, to each his own.

[SvgGrdnBeauty]

this is a pretty unconvincing point. jesus also never mentioned child molestation. but no one would try to argue that pedophelia was ok. nor would they say that a pedophile was born that way. nor would anyone say that a person who wants to have sex with little kids shouldn't refrain themselves from acting out on that attraction. but anyway, to each his own.
Hmmm...a little child in most cases doesn't have a choice, cannot consent. Two grown people who have chosen to have sex together can...that is about as comparable as the man who wanted to marry his sheep

[abbadabba]

this is a pretty unconvincing point. jesus also never mentioned child molestation. but no one would try to argue that pedophelia was ok. nor would they say that a pedophile was born that way. nor would anyone say that a person who wants to have sex with little kids shouldn't refra