Eastern Gate: An Atheist's Worst Nightmare

[campbell34]

-The Eastern or Golden Gate, which was sealed for almost a 1200 years is a key part to Bible prophecy. Ezekiel recorded the prophecy about the closing of this gate. He told how the Lord brought him to the Eastern Gate.

And the Lord said to me, "This gate shall be shut; it shall not open, and no man shall enter by it, because the Lord God of Israel has entered by it; therefore it shall be shut. As for the prince, because he is the prince, he may sit in it to eat bread before the Lord; he shall enter by way of the vestibule of gateway, and go out the same way" (Ezekiel 44:1-3). In other words, this gate is reserved for the entrance of the coming messiah.

After twelve centuries of being sealed, attempts have been made twice in this century to open the Eastern Gate. The first was in 1917 and the second fifty years later in 1967. Muslim leaders in control of Jerusalem tried and failed to break the prophecy and open the gate. Each time, on the exact day the workmen were preparing to demolish the ancient stone, the hand of God intervened and the city of Jerusalem passed of Muslim control into hands of British in 1917 and the israelis in 1967. Each time, the Eastern Gate remained sealed as the prophet declared it would. Habakkuk explaines that prophecy must be fulfilled: "Write the vision and make it plain in tablets, that he may run who reads it. For the vision is yet for an appointed time; but at the end it will speak, and it will not lie. Though it tarries wait for it; because it will surely come. It will not tarry" (Habakkuk 2:2-3) (Jefferey, Messiah-1991)

[campbell34]

All these hot shot atheist in this Christian forum, I call them out and they don't show.

[strawpuppy]

campbell can I get a rain check till tommorow...

lots of writing there..I'm really interested.....but I just gotta go to Zzzz's now cause it's been a long day.............

Yawnnnnnnnnnnnn

g'night

[HappyHaHaGirl]

That sounds scary... I've never heard of that gate... I have heard something about the Garden of Eden being closed up... is that the same thing? I would be afraid to tear it down, whether I was a believer or not. :eek:

[mother_nature's_son]

man, why does god have to be such a damn hotshot... he wont even let me through the same gate as him... :$

;)

[FreeWillFreeLove]

I'm sure he would, you just need to ask nicer ;)

[strawpuppy]

Ive posted this information on the Jehovah witness forum to see what they have to say....(will follow that up here with any replies from that forum)...

Now I'm off to dig into my Bible to see what it says...

because, in my way of thinking...that would be a physical, here and now, absolute proof/puzzle...(that is of course,... if there is not a reasonable, justifyable reason why that gate will not open).......

At the moment I am half athiest...?

Confused..?

I believe Jesus existed, and I believe in a "sort of" God.....but it is nothing like the one in the bible.... though the "sort of" God I believe in, is entirely compatible with the essence of what Christians believe about Jesus,...that Jesus was the son of God and a saviour...ect...

[strawpuppy]

....cambell I'm following reading this: http://uk.geocities.com/jonpartin/ezekiele.html

at the moment....

BUT,....was'nt the temple destroyed by the romans about 70 years after Jesus was murdered.....So how can the gate be there..?

[bluegill]

isn't the gate a recreation of the original gate built by the romans in the 250-300 AD period, a reconstruction of sorts after the romans officially converted to christianity

[LuciferSam]

Hand of God holdin' the door shut, eh? Nothing a few barrels of TNT can't handle...

[peace_sells]

haha yeah that was my idea too lucifersam, we should make a fun day of it.

Where is the gate? what's on the other side of it? what's the gate for? and I don't mean for the next "coming" ;) I mean what is it actually for.

[peace_sells]

-

And the Lord said to me, "This gate shall be shut; it shall not open, and no man shall enter by it, because the Lord God of Israel has entered by it; therefore it shall be shut. As for the prince, because he is the prince, he may sit in it to eat bread before the Lord; he shall enter by way of the vestibule of gateway, and go out the same way" (Ezekiel 44:1-3). In other words, this gate is reserved for the entrance of the coming messiah."
OOOOhhh I have the answer... we throw animals at the gate till it finally busts open - then we can blame it on the animals!

Oorrr maybe it's the sign of the NOMMOS return!! and then THEY'll open it - the bible doesnt mention anything about their part in this world. The answer is nigh.

[campbell34]

peace_sells,

Where is the gate? what's on the other side of it? what's the gate for? and I don't mean for the next "coming" http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif I mean what is it actually for.

-Jerusalem, Israel
-It leads to the Temple Mount
-In ancient days, it allowed access to the temple.





strawpuppy,

BUT,....was'nt the temple destroyed by the romans about 70 years after Jesus was murdered.....So how can the gate be there..?

bluegill,

isn't the gate a recreation of the original gate built by the romans in the 250-300 AD period, a reconstruction of sorts after the romans officially converted to christianity

-Ezekiel 44:2 clearly states that the God of Israel has entered in by it, and since Jesus died before the gate was built, naturally you would think this would rule out the prophecy altogether. So I decided to look into this a little more. As I investigated further, I discovered the most amazing thing. In April of 1969 an excavation that dug directly beneath the present day East Gate, unearth the fully intact Shushan Gate. The Shushan Gate now acts as the foundation of the present and visible Eastern Gate. If the excavation
had continued, the old gate would be usable again. Yet as I began to read Ezekiel 44:3, pins and needles began to go up my spine. Because according to the prophecy, it states when the Prince comes to the gate, he will enter by the way of the porch of the gate. According to Google Web Definitions, a porch is a structure attached to the exterior of a building often forming a covered entrance. The visible Eastern Gate today is the attached porch. Christ must of passed through the old Eastern Gate or the Shushan gate many times because it was one of the main gates that leads
to the temple. When he returns again he will have to pass through the porch of that gate. Which would be the added on section. Now for this prophecy to be accurate and true, it requires two Eastern Gates to exist at the same time. It also requires both gates to be physically connected to each other. The porch of the gate would also have to be sealed, and any attempts to circumvent the prophecy by crashing through the gate would always meet with failure. The prince to come would of already had to of passed through the old Shushan Gate to fulfill the prophecy. In order
for him to complete the prophecy he will have to pass through the visible existing East Gate, or as Ezekiel puts it, the porch of the gate. The reason Ezekiel in verse 1 was so vague about the gate was because the gate that was to be sealed shut would not exist for another 1000 years. The East Gate is the porch of the old gate, and the gate that Ezekiel saw in his vision, is the same gate we see today, and the reason both attempts by the Arabs to smash through the ancient stone failed, is because the Gate is reserved for the prince to come.

[strawpuppy]

Hi campbell,

I've been up in the mountains camping this week-end, but on my return I found this and thought it was worth posting....I have not checked it out yet as (once again....I'm really tired and have to get to bed...Also have to fly back to UK on Tuesday morning...my mum's ill..):

.................................................. ..........

The story you relate smells of urban legend. It is not entirely accurate. Here is some more information on the Golden Gate:


"The gate was probably open during the Byzantine period, and the Emperor eraclius entered through it after taking Jerusalem in 629. After the Muslim onquest, when the Dome of the Rock and the EI-Aksa Mosque were built, it was blocked to prevent unsupervised access to the mosque area.


In the time of the Crusaders it was opened twice a year on Christian festivals: once in the spring, on Palm Sunday, recalling Jesus' triumphal entry to the city through this gate (St. Matthew XXI, 1-8); and once in the autumn, to commemorate the entry of the Emperor Heraclius. The gate was finally closed under Turkish rule."


http://www.templemount.org/visittemp.html (http://www.templemount.org/visittemp.html)
.................................................. ......

Not sure if this is the gate....It was just posted with the text (FYI)...?
http://www.fire-of-god.com/EASTERNGATE.jpg

Hope to catch up on this later....

strawpuppy

[campbell34]

Yes that is the Gate...


It does not matter how many times it was open or closed even if that were the case. The Bible predicted that it would be eventially sealed and remain sealed until the Messiah came. This is not a urban legend, it is well known among Christians, Jews, and Moslims. The graveyard in front of it was an attempt by arabs to prevent the coming Messiah from enter the gate, believing that the Messiah would not want to walk through a graveyard.

[strawpuppy]

I was going to go to bed, but all the hatred, all the hurt, all the sorrow and sadness from where this info came from just got to me...

here it is:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/74849/1.ashx

Then I went and fell headlong into this:

http://www.hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15398

Hit the bottle of wine I had left over.....

And here I (blurry eyed, sad and fighting ALL the injustices and inequalities of this world... still up, and still knackered) am.

[campbell34]

Are we still talkin about the Eastern gate? IS there any other athiest or anyone that can try explain away this amazing prophecy.

[LuciferSam]

Are we still talkin about the Eastern gate? IS there any other athiest or anyone that can try explain away this amazing prophecy. Umm, what do you want explained? It sounds like a really well built gate. If they really want to test it why don't they just blow it up... that's what I'd do if I was determined to open it for some reason.

[Chodpa]

Nowhere in the Bible does it declare that Jesus will return.

[Kharakov]

Yes that is the Gate...


It does not matter how many times it was open or closed even if that were the case. The Bible predicted that it would be eventially sealed and remain sealed until the Messiah came. This is not a urban legend, it is well known among Christians, Jews, and Moslims. The graveyard in front of it was an attempt by arabs to prevent the coming Messiah from enter the gate, believing that the Messiah would not want to walk through a graveyard. Umm, I like graveyards. Besides that- are you sure this doesn't refer to your heart? Take my red door and paint it black :).

[POPthree13]

It does not matter how many times it was open or closed even if that were the case. The Bible predicted that it would be eventially sealed and remain sealed until the Messiah came.
So we can open it up today and seal it back up tomorrow and then open it again, etc. etc. As long as it's closed when Jesus comes the prophecy will be fulfilled? Ok, I predict the door to my house will be sealed and that it will remain selaed until I unseal it. Great prophecy...

PS: I agree with Chodpa.

[campbell34]

popthree,

So we can open it up today and seal it back up tomorrow and then open it again, etc. etc. As long as it's closed when Jesus comes the prophecy will be fulfilled? Ok, I predict the door to my house will be sealed and that it will remain selaed until I unseal it. Great prophecy...

PS: I agree with Chodpa.

-Let me restate this:It does not matter how many times it was open or closed before it was sealed

The fact is Eziekiel predicted that when it is sealed it will not be open until the messiah comes.

No one has walked through it since it was sealed. Sorry popthree but you are still in this nightmare

Of course you agree with Chodpa because if you sided with me you would have to admit that the Bible does have validity.

Oh yeah popthree, I have posted these questions to you two other times and not yet have you replied to them.

Can you please explain these...
1. Messiah would be sold for 30 pieces of silver-Zech. 11:12

2. The Bible states that the Messiah would be the light to the gentiles. Who claimed to be the messiah and is now embraced by the gentiles but is rejected by the Jews?


LuciferSam,

Umm, what do you want explained? It sounds like a really well built gate. If they really want to test it why don't they just blow it up... that's what I'd do if I was determined to open it for some reason.

-Well why hasn't anyone been able to get through. There has been attempts, yet none succeeded. The arabs are so threaten by it they even put a graveyard in front of it with the thinking that the Messiah would not walk through a graveyard. Try to explain what you said: Why can't someone just blow it up. I give you this, if anyone walks through the gate-besides Jesus-they prove the Bible wrong. So if you are that determined, go ahead and try, but I don't think you'll get anywhere.


Chodpa,

"Nowhere in the Bible does it declare that Jesus will return."

-Then you do not know the Bible.

[LuciferSam]

Campbell, I'm sorry but I really can't take this gate theory seriously. Do you honestly believe that simply quoting the Bible is a valid argument and expect people to soak in your wisdom based only on that? Hell, I could write my own scriptures, my own Gospel of LuciferSam, that refutes your Gate legend, and that would be just as valid. Why should the Bible be so much more special and valid than any other holy script, or anything else?

I'm not concerned enough about it nor do I have the means to actually go overseas with a rocket launcher and blow a hole in the Gate, but I don't doubt that with enough force, this Gate can be opened just like any other gate. But if someone does fire cruise missiles at the Gate or goes at it with a diamond saw and it comes out unscathed, then get back to me.

And on the return of Jesus legend, that originated from Paul's Gospel, I believe. Jesus' death understandably lowered the hopes of many believers, so quick-thinking Paul thought up the idea of Jesus' Second Coming. Though Paul had predicted that the Second Coming would be within a few decades or so of his prediction... and he also thought he and other believers would live forever... when those predictions failed, later Gospels and believers would extend those predictions and explain some of those that didn't come about to be allegorical rather than direct prophecies.

[campbell34]

LuciferSam,

"Campbell, I'm sorry but I really can't take this gate theory seriously. Do you honestly believe that simply quoting the Bible is a valid argument and expect people to soak in your wisdom based only on that? Hell, I could write my own scriptures, my own Gospel of LuciferSam, that refutes your Gate legend, and that would be just as valid. Why should the Bible be so much more special and valid than any other holy script, or anything else?"

-Yeah you could write your own scriptures but could you predict anything in detail-nope-that's what makes your scriptures and any other book different from the Bible's. The fact is the gate still stands and so does my faith.

And on the return of Jesus legend, that originated from Paul's Gospel, I believe. Jesus' death understandably lowered the hopes of many believers, so quick-thinking Paul thought up the idea of Jesus' Second Coming. Though Paul had predicted that the Second Coming would be within a few decades or so of his prediction... and he also thought he and other believers would live forever... when those predictions failed, later Gospels and believers would extend those predictions and explain some of those that didn't come about to be allegorical rather than direct prophecies.

-First off Paul did not come up with Christ returning. Jesus himself said he would return.

"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going."

Also, which prophecies did they explain away as allegory?

[#include]

Just FYI to all...he is right. There is such a gate. Those there are afraid that it will come true, as well. They have built a graveyard right behind the wall, in hopes that Jesus would not desecrate (spelling?) a graveyard, and stop Him from walking through.

[LuciferSam]

-Yeah you could write your own scriptures but could you predict anything in detail-nope-that's what makes your scriptures and any other book different from the Bible's. The fact is the gate still stands and so does my faith. Dude, if I cared enough to take the time, I could give you all the detail you want. I'd weave fantastic stories... I mean, predictions about giant magic wombats and angels riding in flying pumpkin chariots and Jesus returning in a flying saucer. The fact it's described in detail is only a testimony, if anything, to the author's imagination rather than his/her foresight.



First off Paul did not come up with Christ returning. Jesus himself said he would return.

"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." No one really knows what Jesus actually said. There are no actual scriptures of Jesus' teachings directly from him, all accounts of Jesus come from the Gospels or later writers, none of whom have ever encountered Jesus. This explains why the four official Gospels have such differing accounts of Christ, and the Gnostic Gospels are often even more cryptic or strange (read the Gospel of Thomas, that one's always entertaining).

Also, which prophecies did they explain away as allegory? In that specific case, the prophecies that Paul had about Jesus returning very soon, and that he and his followers would never die. These didn't come about, so later Christian leaders would say, essentially, "Oh... well, uh, that was just allegory. Jesus actually won't be back for quite a while. And what Paul meant was not that we won't physically die, but our spirits won't." Basically to that effect.

[LuciferSam]

On a further note, if you pay any attention at all to Christian history, especially during its early years when it was infused with Hellenistic/Platonic ideas, you'd know that the Bible was and is often interpreted on a non-literal, allegorical level. The Greeks were fond of allegory, after all.

[Brocktoon]

On a further note, if you pay any attention at all to Christian history, especially during its early years when it was infused with Hellenistic/Platonic ideas, you'd know that the Bible was and is often interpreted on a non-literal, allegorical level. The Greeks were fond of allegory, after all.
The insult implicit in the first sentence was not necessary. (Implying he does not pay attention to any Christian history)

It would be a fitting implication for yourself.
The early years of the Christian Church did not see some remarkable 'infusion' of Hellenistic/Platonic 'ideas'.
Not surprisingly, Apostles like Paul or even Jesus Himself were relating and teaching to a world infused with Hellenistic/Platonic ideas.
Even the language of the day (Greek) was chock-full of 'Hellenistic/Platonic' basis, reference and derivision.

So this you conclude is evidence Christianity was 'infused' with Plato??

Lets go with this baseless suggestion of yours....
You draw some 'conclusion' (which is someone supposed to 'inform' Campbell of God-knows-what)
..you'd know that the Bible was and is often interpreted on a non-literal, allegorical level. The Greeks were fond of allegory, after all.
Huh?

What is 'non-literal'?
You mean Paul's voyage to Malta 'was and is' to be seen as an 'allegory' about travelling to other islands?

You mean Jesus showing Thomas his healed wounds was really some 'allegory' about how 'man views scars'?

'After All' you remind us.. 'The Greeks were fond of allegory"
Huh?
or should I say 'Duh'?

Read the New Testament.. or even passages.. The Writers, Apostles, Jesus and everyone involved are entirely aware of Allegory, Literal vs. Non-literal and there is no confusion on anyones part.

The Gospels clearly and without 'grey' explain what they are, what they intend to explain and then go about doing so.
Clearly, literally and without mystery.

Please, since you are so familiar with early Church history and the Hellenistic/Platonic world-view of the Greco-Roman world, Please explain where and what is 'Allegorical' and what is 'Non-Literal'?

I'm certain that someone intelligent enough to stylise his countenance to that of a Hobbit will be able to carefully enlighten me as to where Dr. John's Gospel Account of Jesus Ministry was being 'Allegorical'.

I can't wait.

[POPthree13]

-Let me restate this:It does not matter how many times it was open or closed before it was sealed

The fact is Eziekiel predicted that when it is sealed it will not be open until the messiah comes.
Again I restate that the status of 'sealed' has been difined by someone and you claim that since it was opened before it must not have been 'sealed' or it wouldn't have been opened. But now it is sealed because it hasn't been opened... but if someone opened it all the believers in this gate thing would just say... 'oh it must not have been sealed yet!' In essense the prophecy is circular, and unproovable. If you could say that the gate has been sealed since those scriptures were written it would be different. The gate has been opened and nothing happened. They could open it again and nothing would happen.


Of course you agree with Chodpa because if you sided with me you would have to admit that the Bible does have validity.I have not claimed that the bible has NO validity. I claim that the bible is NOT a 100% complete, accurate, literal, infallible document pulled 100% from the mouth of God without misinterpretations, mistranslations or the misdirections of man's influence on it. ... but I don't think Chodpa's statement had anything to do with invalidating the bible. He was pointing out that people read a bunch of stuff into the religion that's not in the bible (especially since 300 - 400 AD when the religion took quite a historical turn.)


Oh yeah popthree, I have posted these questions to you two other times and not yet have you replied to them.

Can you please explain these...
1. Messiah would be sold for 30 pieces of silver-Zech. 11:12

2. The Bible states that the Messiah would be the light to the gentiles. Who claimed to be the messiah and is now embraced by the gentiles but is rejected by the Jews?
1. Chapters 9 to 11 of Zechariah are not written by the prophet and are not considered prophetic in nature. They come from the hand of another author that is often called "Second Zechariah" (around 300 BC). These chapters consist of sayings against foreign nations together with promises of power for the returning exiles. They are easy to read stories about what God is going to do to Jerusalem's enemies and how those who return will be rewarded for there courage. How you find a 'Messiah' prediction in these documents is quite beyond me, unless you forgot the read the sentences that come before and after Zech 11:12.
2. Light unto the gentiles - very opinionated statement with can not be verified. Claimed to be the messiah - I don't remember Jesus claiming that. Hitler claimed to be a deliverer of the Gentiles and he is rejected by the Jews. Maybe you got the wrong man... ;)

[POPthree13]

'Non-Literal' - (example) When Jesus said that god's harvest was like grain that fell on fertile soil he didn't mean he was going to plant us.


A whole lot of the 'good' (IMO) teaching in the bible are in parable and even riddle. Those who built many of the scriptures must have been aware that language and word meanings change, but morals embedded inside of stories often held the test of time - because they are abstract in nature.

Taking these stories literally destroys ALL of the meaning and wisdom they were meant to impart.

[POPthree13]

PS: I don't really see the nightmare here. If Jesus came back I think we'd be pretty good pals.

[LuciferSam]

The insult implicit in the first sentence was not necessary. (Implying he does not pay attention to any Christian history)
Alright then, I merely took the assumption from the fact that campbell seems to take everything in the Bible literally and at its word. A look at early Christian history would show you that theology would not often take things so literally. I am trying hard to maintain a level of civility in this conversation, but it gets very trying at times for me to hide my contempt for people who repeatedly yelp "The Bible says it and that's all the proof I need! And it's valid because my faith is very very strong!"

It would be a fitting implication for yourself.
The early years of the Christian Church did not see some remarkable 'infusion' of Hellenistic/Platonic 'ideas'. Wrong. Read further on for my counterargument.

Not surprisingly, Apostles like Paul or even Jesus Himself were relating and teaching to a world infused with Hellenistic/Platonic ideas. Jesus' main area of influence in his living days were strictly confined to the Hebrew world and he himself had little to do with Greek philosophy. It would be later Christian theologians that would bring in Hellenistic ideas. Had Jesus hypothetically returned only a few centuries after his death, he would very likely not have understood all the theological changes the religion he founded underwent.

So this you conclude is evidence Christianity was 'infused' with Plato?? No, that is not the extent of my evidence. You haven't covered the entire story. Not long after the passing of Jesus and the Gospels, the people who would assume leadership of the Christians were more and more gentiles rather than Jews. The new leadership was, like most other theologians of the day, heavily schooled in Greek philosophy, and so they would adapt Christianity to a Hellenistic/Platonic model simply because it was how they viewed things. And it was also the way to go if they ever wanted Christianity to earn any respect in the elite world of philosophy. The model that everyone looked to and respect was Plato's model of the cosmos, of a dualistic system with a physical world and an abstract world. In order to bring some status to their religion, which is generally viewed as a cult back then, they would explain Christianity to their theologian peers in terms of Plato's model of the universe and other Hellenistic ideas. Different varieties of Christianity would adapt Plato's model to Christianity in different ways, and Gnostic Christianity was especially influenced by Platonism. That is what I meant by the infusion of Hellenism and Platonism into early Christianity.

Lets go with this baseless suggestion of yours....
You draw some 'conclusion' (which is someone supposed to 'inform' Campbell of God-knows-what) I think I've made the case above that my "suggestion" is not baseless. What I was meaning to inform Campbell of is simply that the Bible isn't always taken literally.

What is 'non-literal'? Not taking everything word-for-word and as if it all really happened exactly as explained in the Bible.

You mean Paul's voyage to Malta 'was and is' to be seen as an 'allegory' about travelling to other islands?

You mean Jesus showing Thomas his healed wounds was really some 'allegory' about how 'man views scars'? Hm, sure, I don't really know about those excerpts specifically. Much of the stuff regarding Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection, and the motives behind them were interpreted at various levels, both literal and allegorical. Some Gnostics would even regard Jesus' resurrection as irrelevant in terms of salvation, which drove the mainstream Church nuts.

Read the New Testament.. or even passages.. The Writers, Apostles, Jesus and everyone involved are entirely aware of Allegory, Literal vs. Non-literal and there is no confusion on anyones part. You mean simply the "Writers." Jesus was never directly involved in the making of the New Testament of course. The Gospel writings that made it into the New Testament were handpicked by the authors. Whether they entirely aware of how it was meant to be interpreted can certainly be disputed, disputes over the correct interpretation of scripture has been the basis for many schisms and new denominations of Christianity.

The Gospels clearly and without 'grey' explain what they are, what they intend to explain and then go about doing so.
Clearly, literally and without mystery. Maybe to you. The 'grey' in the Gospels' explanations in my opinion have more to do with their different depictions of Jesus, from a peace-and-love hippy-ish messiah to a repent-or-feel-my-vengeance messiah.

And I encourage you to read some of the more obscure Gospels, those that didn't make it into the Testament for instance (mainly because a big reason why the Testament was written by the Church was to provide a basis on which to refute the rival Gnostics). The Gospel of Thomas that I mentioned before is particularly cryptic and incomprehensible, with many mystical, all-is-one quotes that seem like they were written by a drunken Buddha - example: "A man who is old in his days will not hesitate to ask a baby of seven days about the place of life and he will live. For many who are first shall be last, and they shall become a single one." If you can read that Gospel and tell me what it's trying to explain, and tell me convincingly that it's literal and clear, then I seriously would be very, very impressed.

Please, since you are so familiar with early Church history and the Hellenistic/Platonic world-view of the Greco-Roman world, Please explain where and what is 'Allegorical' and what is 'Non-Literal'? There is no real absolute explanation for what is allegorical and what is non-literal and what is literal in the Bible. I am not Christian myself (I only have an interest in religious studies in the sense of "hmm, that's interesting," as opposed to "this must be the truth.") so I do not have my own convictions on what's real and what's not in the Bible, I view all of it as one big story myself, based on various historical figures and events. Different groups had different ways of interpreting it. That's a fundamental part of all the debates between the many different groups of Christianity back then, the various factions would use different bits of scripture to validate the points they were trying to make.

I'm certain that someone intelligent enough to stylise his countenance to that of a Hobbit will be able to carefully enlighten me as to where Dr. John's Gospel Account of Jesus Ministry was being 'Allegorical'.

I can't wait. Hehe, calm down dude. I haven't thought of my sketch before as resembling a hobbit, but as a Tolkien fan I thank ye for the compliment. As I've said above, I have none of my own exacting convictions as to what should be taken literally in the Bible and what shouldn't, as I myself am not Christian. Being non-Christian though, naturally I don't believe that any of the supernatural and "miracle" elements are real. I am simply saying that the Bible has not always been taken word-for-word everything-in-this-book-actually-happened literally, as some other people on this forum seem to do, and in fact has very often not been taken so literally. Provide me with examples of the more fanciful stories in the Bible, and I will probably say that there is allegory involved. And as someone else said above, a good deal of the Bible was very likely, in my opinion, meant to be interpreted like a parable or fable with lessons and wisdoms rather than a literal, this is what happened story.

[TheFly]

Prophesy is propaganda...

We could blow up the gate... then they would merely say that prophesy has not been fulfilled because nobody had actually walked through the gate...

And that is what makes prophesy so powerful...

And I'm not surprised that other religions are scared (for want of a better word) by this prophesy... after all, they are believers too... they may not be believers in the Christian faith, but they believe in their own prophesies... so it will come as no surprise if their actions indicate that they also believe in your prophesies too...

You demand an explaination... I can't give you one... but I expect there are many possible explainations as to why it cannot be opened... your knowledge of The Bible strikes me as being impressive, but your weild it like a moody teenager in a childish game of "taunt the atheist"...

Your prophesy is meaningless to me... just as your gate is meaningless to me... you give them power and value because of what you believe... for me, they have no power or value because they have no connection to my reality...

So I will never be able to dissuade you of your beliefs because I do not offer any beliefs to replace them... only the evidence of my life experience...

You believe... I do not believe...

Its as simple as that...

Fly...
.

[LuciferSam]

Couldn't we just walk through the gate after we blew a hole in it?

[Cosmic Butterfly]

Why would the Muslims be afraid of the Messiah??? They believe in Jesus (Isa) as a great prophet as well, who will come back.

[Jaz Delorean]

Jesus might come back tonight...he could come back anytime...

[campbell34]

LuciferSam,


Dude, if I cared enough to take the time, I could give you all the detail you want. I'd weave fantastic stories... I mean, predictions about giant magic wombats and angels riding in flying pumpkin chariots and Jesus returning in a flying saucer. The fact it's described in detail is only a testimony, if anything, to the author's imagination rather than his/her foresight.

No one really knows what Jesus actually said. There are no actual scriptures of Jesus' teachings directly from him, all accounts of Jesus come from the Gospels or later writers, none of whom have ever encountered Jesus. This explains why the four official Gospels have such differing accounts of Christ, and the Gnostic Gospels are often even more cryptic or strange (read the Gospel of Thomas, that one's always entertaining).

In that specific case, the prophecies that Paul had about Jesus returning very soon, and that he and his followers would never die. These didn't come about, so later Christian leaders would say, essentially, "Oh... well, uh, that was just allegory. Jesus actually won't be back for quite a while. And what Paul meant was not that we won't physically die, but our spirits won't." Basically to that effect.

-You can predict lots of things but unlike the writers then pen the Bible none of your predictions outside of what is predictable will come true. We all can predict the sun will rise tomorrow. However, the Bible has predicted hundreds of prophecies that have already come true thousands of years before they happen with impossible detail. Only God could have known the circumstances that have allowed these prophecies to come to pass.

-There are different views of Jesus life but that is because there are different writers talking about his life from their perspective. The most important thing is that none of their views conflict with each other. Now if you have any substance of what you told me, please show me where you see a conflict. I am sure I'll find this entertaining.

-Apparently when you read the Bible you don't believe in reading in context. The verse that you mention can be found in Luke 9:27 but you should have also read Luke 9:28-36 and this is the explanation: this is where Peter John and James saw Jesus in the glory of His coming it was a vision of the future. Christians refer to this as the Transfiguration. Usually nonbelievers love to take Luke 9:27 out of context dishonestly and do not read the rest of the verse. In an attempt to try and prove the Bible wrong. It's a cheap shot.

[FreakyJoeMan]

http://itsb.ucsf.edu/~vcr/NaziMelt2.jpeg
This is me after the gate opens, right?

[campbell34]

Again I restate that the status of 'sealed' has been difined by someone and you claim that since it was opened before it must not have been 'sealed' or it wouldn't have been opened. But now it is sealed because it hasn't been opened... but if someone opened it all the believers in this gate thing would just say... 'oh it must not have been sealed yet!' In essense the prophecy is circular, and unproovable. If you could say that the gate has been sealed since those scriptures were written it would be different. The gate has been opened and nothing happened. They could open it again and nothing would happen...


1. Chapters 9 to 11 of Zechariah are not written by the prophet and are not considered prophetic in nature. They come from the hand of another author that is often called "Second Zechariah" (around 300 BC). These chapters consist of sayings against foreign nations together with promises of power for the returning exiles. They are easy to read stories about what God is going to do to Jerusalem's enemies and how those who return will be rewarded for there courage. How you find a 'Messiah' prediction in these documents is quite beyond me, unless you forgot the read the sentences that come before and after Zech 11:12.
2. Light unto the gentiles - very opinionated statement with can not be verified. Claimed to be the messiah - I don't remember Jesus claiming that. Hitler claimed to be a deliverer of the Gentiles and he is rejected by the Jews. Maybe you got the wrong man... ;)
-East Gate

The scriptures never stated when, they only stated that it would be sealed. And the original gate would have to be buried because the prophecy requires that both gates exist at the same time. The gate that Ezeikiel saw in his vision did not exist yet. The gate to be sealed would have to be built on the original gate a thousand years later. Because the Bible states that when the Messiah comes he would enter through the porch of that gate. And it is the porch of the original gate that was to be sealed. The arabs have tried twice to open this gate once in 1917 and the second time in 1967. On the very day they tried to open it, Jerusalem passed out of Arab control. In 1917 the British took over and in 1967 the Jews took over. That is some coincidence considering it was on the very day they tried to open the gate.

-Zechariah

The prophecies of Zechariah were fully accepted by the Jewish community until about 1100 A.D. Many of the Beliefs today denying the messianic prophecies would have been rejected by Jews that lived before 1100 A.D. For you see all Rabbis before that time fully embraced the belief of the literal interpretation of the coming Messiah. About 900 years ago Rabbi ShlomoYitzchaki (Rashi) decided that all pervious Jewish religious leaders from the beginning were wrong in their understanding of many of these scriptures. So he took it upon himself and his followers to change that belief from Messiah, to Israel. In short, he did away with a 1000 years of Jewish belief and set the standard for a new belief. It was obvious to him that all previous religious theologians and Rabbis did not know what they were talking about. As a result, most Jews now reject what was clearly accepted in their faith and now embrace this new thinking. They had to forget the great medieval Jewish scholars like Moses Ben Nachman, Rabbi Moshe Konen Ibn Crispin, or Rabbi Moshe El-Sheikn. All of them with one voice accept and affirm the opinion that the prophets were speaking of King Messiah. Could it be that all of the Jewish religious Rabbis and theologians were wrong from the beginning, and nobody got it right until Rashi came. The questions is, who was right? Was it the early religious leaders who were closer to the Bible's origin, or was it the maverick theologian Rashi? Apparently, you believe Rashi was right. Is it any wonder that 90% of today's Jews have no real religious faith.


-Light unto the Gentiles

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. -John 14:6

Light unto the Gentiles: two billion people today are considered Christians who else would be the light of the Gentiles that is also a Jew??

[peace_sells]

lookin' pretty good there freakyjoeman

[campbell34]

Why would the Muslims be afraid of the Messiah??? They believe in Jesus (Isa) as a great prophet as well, who will come back.
-The Muslims do not believe that Jesus is their savior. They do not accept his blood sacrifice. They also do not believe they have to be born again through Jesus.


John 3

1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

[LuciferSam]

-You can predict lots of things but unlike the writers then pen the Bible none of your predictions outside of what is predictable will come true. We all can predict the sun will rise tomorrow. However, the Bible has predicted hundreds of prophecies that have already come true thousands of years before they happen with impossible detail. Only God could have known the circumstances that have allowed these prophecies to come to pass.
Uh, what in the name of all-that-might-be-holy are you talking about? The Bible has predicted hundreds of prophecies "that have already come true thousands of years before they happen"? How does something become true before it happens? The Bible hasn't even been in existance for that many thousands of years, the New Testament hasn't even been around for 2,000. Please elaborate on this because your above statement doesn't even make sense.


-There are different views of Jesus life but that is because there are different writers talking about his life from their perspective. The most important thing is that none of their views conflict with each other. Now if you have any substance of what you told me, please show me where you see a conflict. I am sure I'll find this entertaining.
So you first say that the Gospels do have different accounts of Jesus, different views and perspectives as you say, yet they don't conflict... how are they different yet not conflicting with each other? Anyway, it is well known that the four Gospels' accounts are not entirely consistent with each other. The more Hellenistic John has the most apparent differences, having been derived allegedly from a different manuscript, it's why he's categorized apart from the other three "synoptic" gospels.

-Apparently when you read the Bible you don't believe in reading in context. The verse that you mention can be found in Luke 9:27 but you should have also read Luke 9:28-36 and this is the explanation: this is where Peter John and James saw Jesus in the glory of His coming it was a vision of the future. Christians refer to this as the Transfiguration. Usually nonbelievers love to take Luke 9:27 out of context dishonestly and do not read the rest of the verse. In an attempt to try and prove the Bible wrong. It's a cheap shot.
I'll do more digging into that then, but I'm pretty certain that Paul's belief in the second coming of Jesus was at any rate a different sort than later Christian theology would have, that is, he expected Jesus to return very soon in his time as opposed to thousands of years.

[campbell34]

Uh, what in the name of all-that-might-be-holy are you talking about? The Bible has predicted hundreds of prophecies "that have already come true thousands of years before they happen"? How does something become true before it happens? The Bible hasn't even been in existance for that many thousands of years, the New Testament hasn't even been around for 2,000. Please elaborate on this because your above statement doesn't even make sense.



So you first say that the Gospels do have different accounts of Jesus, different views and perspectives as you say, yet they don't conflict... how are they different yet not conflicting with each other? Anyway, it is well known that the four Gospels' accounts are not entirely consistent with each other. The more Hellenistic John has the most apparent differences, having been derived allegedly from a different manuscript, it's why he's categorized apart from the other three "synoptic" gospels.


I'll do more digging into that then, but I'm pretty certain that Paul's belief in the second coming of Jesus was at any rate a different sort than later Christian theology would have, that is, he expected Jesus to return very soon in his time as opposed to thousands of years.
-The reason I said that the prophecies were true before they happen is because when they did happen, it was evident at that time that the prophecies had been trues all along. Therefore, the Bible predicts history before it happens.



Example: according to the Bible in the last days....


*The Jews would return to Israel which occured in 1948

*The exact order the Jews would reclaim the land.
Judah would be occupied first, as the Bible predicted, which happened in 1948
Jerusalem was occupied second, as the Bible predicted, which occured in 1967

*That when the Jews return to Israel, they would be one nation with one ruler.
Note: Before the Jews were kicked out of Israel, it was divided into two nations with two rulers.

*Israel would be surrounded by enemies...They are

*Israel would have one of the strongest armies in the world...They do



-They don't conflict because one of the writers might have been focusing his attention on what the crowd was saying where as another writer was recording what a Roman soldier was saying. Yet, they are talking about the same event. They where just speaking from their perspective. If they where trying to get a story to agree they could have all gotten together and copied the story word from word.

-John predicted in the book of Revelation that at the time of the end, from out of the east would arise an army of 200 million men. It is questionable whether there where 200 million men in the whole world at this time. He also predicted that cities could be destroyed in hour's time in the future. Today, however, all of this is possible. But it was not back then.

[Brocktoon]

Thank you PopThree for demonstrating exactly what I meant to point out.

ANYONE with the ability to read or be read to clearly understands when Jesus (and the writer) are about to start a Parable.
Then the Parable is recorded.
Often the writer then explains again that you have read a Parable.
Sometimes the meaning of the Parable (the NON LITERAL PART) is discussed or explained.

CHILDREN have NO problem grasping that this was the part where its an account and now this is the part where its a 'Parable' or 'Allegory'.

Another 'Clue' you are about to read an 'Allegorical' statement will be (example) when Jesus says something like:
"Now Im going to tell you a Parable.. The ___ is LIKE a ___

Do you actually mean to tell me that you and Lucifersam are actually at such a un-freaking-believable low level of concept grasping that you actually think your 'teaching us' how and where Allegories work inside accounts?!

Please, I really want you to tell us of your amazing intellectual discovery of 'Part of the Bible' that are 'Allegorical'.
What about the Prodigal Son?

You should really give us a 'lesson' about these things.. some of us thought it was just a Inheritance Law specifically for wealthy land-owners who had two Sons?

Oh wow.. You really have shown me the way!
Now I realise that something recorded in the Bible might be something called an 'Allegory' and be 'Non-Literal'!?

This means its not 'Real' physical descriptions of a specific event.. and therefore you just made me think "hey.. the entire Bible is proven to be partly 'not really real'... So its really just a soft nothing book that isnt real!

Wow!

- Dimwits!

[Jaz Delorean]

I'll do more digging into that then, but I'm pretty certain that Paul's belief in the second coming of Jesus was at any rate a different sort than later Christian theology would have, that is, he expected Jesus to return very soon in his time as opposed to thousands of years.
Thats the feeling and sort of knowing that so many Christians have, I do, i expect Jesus to return very soon in my lifetime! Thousands of Christians all feel like this, it's what makes us go!! Jesus could come back any time, so we should expect him! and thats just what Paul was doing, it's not about theology or studying people, it's about listening to and living in the Spirit....
Jaz
xxx

[LuciferSam]

Heh, well Campbell the thing about the Israel prophecy is that I don't believe it isn't a wild stretch of the imagination to not be surprised that the Bible has such content about Israel's future, since the Bible is derived from Jewish scripture. The content you posted can be attributed to Zionism or are just predictable (for instance, the Jews always had enemies around them). So would this all mean that Judaism is perhaps a more valid faith than Christianity even? Had various empires happened to actually succeed in their prophecies of ruling for thousands of years (Third Reich, just to give an example), would that have meant their leaders had astounding powers of seeing the future?

So the Israel prophecies just aren't impressive to me. Of course, my atheistic-agnostic viewpoints would explain that, as your Christian viewpoints would validate yours. I guess we can agree to disagree, or you may continue to present me with more of these fulfilled prophecies you speak of if you want.

Do you actually mean to tell me that you and Lucifersam are actually at such a un-freaking-believable low level of concept grasping that you actually think your 'teaching us' how and where Allegories work inside accounts?!
Sometimes there are Christians who give me the impression that they really can't grasp such concepts, and take everything in the Bible at its word. If I sounded condescending it's mostly because sometimes you guys give that impression of low-concept-understanding to us, such as apparently expecting non-Christians to shake in their boots because of this gate prophecy.

...

This means its not 'Real' physical descriptions of a specific event.. and therefore you just made me think "hey.. the entire Bible is proven to be partly 'not really real'... So its really just a soft nothing book that isnt real!

Wow!

- Dimwits!
Sheesh, who spat in your Bible today? And you reprimand me for only "implied" insults. From my perspective, yes, much of the Bible is a "soft nothing book" that isn't real, which is why I don't pay any regard to people presenting quotes from them to try and validate the existence of a magic gate in the real world.

[Brocktoon]

Concerning the Prophecies.
Far from being 'Open ended' 'Allegories' - Prophecy is a way to make hard mathematical, logical conclusions about the authority of the Scriptures.

Of course, any one particular prophecy could be said to be 'Chance'.
The Gates could be said to be a 'Happenstance'. Fine.

Now so could a Prophecy predicting Tyre would never be anything more than a fishing village again for the rest of history.

What happens is that you the laws of probability quickly.. very quickly catch up to you.
Eventually.. even being extremely conservative.. you realise that the laws of statistical probability, fluke, chance (whatever you like) all can NOT explain away the hard cold numbers.

Ultimately, its anything but 'soft allegories' or some kind of subjective interpreting.
Its cold hard logical facts and an avalanche of mathematics.

Enjoy! :D

[POPthree13]

Campbell - My point was that Zechariah didn't write that passage. Ans that your prophecy is completely useless. Sealed means closed. So anything that closes will remain sealed until it is opened. I would like to see where you get the sources that the Arabs were trying to open the gate when control was handed over..... I can find no such evidence.

Brocktoon - Sam has got a real good grasp on early christian history and I think his point about parable is MORE than valid here. I think most people take literally things that were never meant to be taken literally. Like Creation, the garden of eden, perhaps even the resurrection. Most of the jewish people I have talked to about 'stories' like creation say they are just stories meant to impart wisdom and not meant to be taken literally. But Christians adopt it and now it must be read word for word and beleived literally? Did you forget whose stories these are? What do they have to do with God, with Christ? Silly christians....

[POPthree13]

Ultimately, its anything but 'soft allegories' or some kind of subjective interpreting.
Its cold hard logical facts and an avalanche of mathematics.

Enjoy! :D
I am not sure if I have ever read a bigger load of crap. There is no such thing as interpretation without subjectivity. Ever prophecy I have EVER heard was fullfilled was so full of generic language, fuzzy facts and obscure language that it could be twisted to mean dozens if not hundreds of thousands of things dependign on what you want to prove.

Read you bible and in tandem with any docuemtn claiming that hundreds of prophecies have been fulfilled and you will quickly realize that these people steal individual passages that 'supposedly' fulfill prophecy and never talk about the context of the scripture and how it has NOTHING to do with prophecy.

[campbell34]

popthree,

"Sealed means closed. So anything that closes will remain sealed until it is opened."

-Right. Eziekel predicted that once the gate is closed that it will remain closed until the Messiah walks through it. Today, after about 1200 years, it still remains closed. However, we are only about 30 years away from the begining of God's third day. Things will begin to change.

"I would like to see where you get the sources that the Arabs were trying to open the gate when control was handed over..... I can find no such evidence."

-One source is from the book Messiah, by Grant Jeffery, copyright 1991

I have read other and sources and will try to locate. I have also heard that Jews during the '67 war were going to blast through the gate but they hesitated because they knew the prophecy.


"The next day I read a fascinating news account about one of the Jewish commando groups that had been involved in the assault on the city. The article stated that some members of the group had suggested catching the Jordanian defenders of the city off guard by blowing open the sealed Eastern Gate. But the leader of the group, an Orthodox Jew, had vehemently protested the idea, stating that "the Eastern Gate can be opened only when the Messiah comes."

That statement caught my eye. I wondered what the fellow was talking about. I knew nothing about the Eastern Gate except that it was the only gate of the city that led directly onto the Temple Mount. I was not aware that it was sealed, nor did I know that its opening was in any way biblically linked to the return of the Messiah."

read more... http://www.lamblion.com/prophecy/key/Key-13.php

[campbell34]

"Twice in the last century an attempt to open the sealed Eastern Gate has failed. I found the following in Grant Jeffrey’s book "Heaven, The Last Frontier." The first attempt was on December 9th 1917, when the Grand Mufti, the Arab leader of Jerusalem, tried to open this gate. He had ordered the other gates to Jerusalem sealed to deter the approaching allied Expeditionary Army led by the British General Allenby. This was back in the early 1900s when the British were dismantling the Ottoman Empire, which had ruled over the land of Israel for 400 years.

But, the Grand Mufti did need to have one gate remain open, so he ordered his workmen to open the mysterious sealed gate. As the workmen picked up their sledgehammers, Allenby's airplane flew over the city, telling the Arabs to flee. Miraculously, without a shot being fired, the opposing soldiers fled the city. The city was delivered into the hands of the Britain, which one month earlier had promised the Jews the right to re-establish sovereignty over their ancient homeland, via the famous Balfour Declaration. The workmen fearfully put down their sledgehammers and the gate remained sealed as Ezekiel had prophesied.

Then, in 1967, the ancient prophecy was fulfilled again. But first, a little history: In 1948, the Jews declared sovereignty over a portion of their ancient homeland. In retaliation, King Hussein of Jordan, who had control over the ancient city of Jerusalem, including the Temple Mount, forbade the Jews from worshipping at their sacred Western Wall. This was the first time in centuries that the Jews did not have access to the Western Wall, which is a remnant of the wall around the second Temple, which was destroyed by the Romans some 1900 years ago.

King Hussein decided to build a hotel for Arab pilgrims on this section of the Western Wall, closing off this area to Jewish worship forever. The planned hotel was to be built over the Magreb Gate, which Moslems used to enter the Temple Mount. So, the King needed to open another gate so that Moslems could get to the El Aksa Mosque, which was built by Moslems on the site of the Jewish Temple Mount.

In violation of the prophecy, he ordered his workmen to open the sealed Eastern Gate. But, during this time, Arabs were also preparing to attack Israel, hoping to wipe out the Jewish state. And the Jews were about to preemptively respond to this planned attack. On June 5th of 1967, as the workmen prepared their air-hammers to shatter the huge stones sealing the Eastern Gate, an intimidating array of Israeli aircraft flew overhead. The Six Day War had begun, and the workmen put down their tools.

At the end of the Six Day War, the workmen were unable to resume their project because the Jews had managed to recapture their ancient capital of Jerusalem. True to Ezekiel’s prophecy, The Eastern Gate is still sealed. The gate will remain sealed until the day when the promised Messiah will enter into His Kingdom."

By George Konig
Christian Internet Forum
www.konig.org
January 18, 2003

[Brocktoon]

I am not sure if I have ever read a bigger load of crap. You should read several of LuciferSams posts about Early Christianity then..

There is no such thing as interpretation without subjectivity. Lets take a look at this statement of yours.
Maybe I leave a note on your parked car that reads: "Sorry, but I backed into your car while backing up. The damage to your left bumper will be covered by my insurance company. Heres my number. My bad!

- Now, lets get something cleared up - You 'Can' interpret that note as being a Lesson about Cats and how they should not eat peanut butter'

After all .. that is just 'one interpretation' from 'your perspective'??
However, its not an intellectually valid interpretation.. and certainly not 'equal' to the common literal interpretation.
In addition - It does not 'mitigate' the literal interpretation does it?
No, of course not.
Would an observer be helpful and accurate if he declared: "Well... One person interprets it as being a literal event... and another interpreted it as a Cautionary warning about Cats and Peanut butter... 'Therefore' we will never truly be able to find any real meaning in the note!?

"Well that note was nothing but soft fuzzy 'anything' because there were at least two different interpretations right"

No.. There was just one person that is a moron and says silly things about notes.

Where does 'Subjectivity' come in. You seem convinced you have heard of this issue.
Well.. the Subjectivity DOES come into play on most Prophecies but it is almost always regarding A SPECIFIC WORD DEFINITION and rarely has anything to do with THE CLEAR MEANING AND LITERAL EXPLANATION of the events or objects themselves.

Perfect example in the Gates Prophecy.
There is NO RIGHT for 'Subjectivity' when it comes to the Objects themselves.
The Gates are cleary described, the events are explained and the timeline is established.
(Please note.. you 'can' interpret them to be Cats and Peanut Butter sandwiches 'if' you so choose. That is not 'Subjective'.. that is 'Stupid")

Now.. YES.. there is room for 'subjective' speculation and interpretation of a particular aspect of a definition.
In this case 'Sealed'.
YOU may speculate the, in this case, the author intended to use the word in the most extreme literal and scientifically stringent way possible.
The Gates will always be 'Hermetically Sealed' and scientifically can have NO air or water pass throught them at any points.

This is technically 'fair' and yes that word can be open to some degree of subjective opinion.. since we dont know exactly the precise meaning and emphasis the writer poured into that word.

This DOES NOT LOGICALLY 'mitigate away' the clear explanation of the prophecy.
It does not make it 'Fuzzy' now.
Regardless of which extreme 'subjective interpretation' we put on the word 'Sealed' - it does NOT make the Gates themselves 'less real'.



[QUOTE]Ever prophecy I have EVER heard was fullfilled was so full of generic language, fuzzy facts and obscure language that it could be twisted to mean dozens if not hundreds of thousands of things dependign on what you want to prove.
I am not sure if I have ever read a bigger load of crap. You should read several of LuciferSams posts about Early Christianity then..

There is no such thing as interpretation without subjectivity. Lets take a look at this statement of yours.
Maybe I leave a note on your parked car that reads: "Sorry, but I backed into your car while backing up. The damage to your left bumper will be covered by my insurance company. Heres my number. My bad!

- Now, lets get something cleared up - You 'Can' interpret that note as being a Lesson about Cats and how they should not eat peanut butter'

After all .. that is just 'one interpretation' from 'your perspective'??
However, its not an intellectually valid interpretation.. and certainly not 'equal' to the common literal interpretation.
In addition - It does not 'mitigate' the literal interpretation does it?
No, of course not.
Would an observer be helpful and accurate if he declared: "Well... One person interprets it as being a literal event... and another interpreted it as a Cautionary warning about Cats and Peanut butter... 'Therefore' we will never truly be able to find any real meaning in the note!?

"Well that note was nothing but soft fuzzy 'anything' because there were at least two different interpretations right"

No.. There was just one person that is a moron and says silly things about notes.

Where does 'Subjectivity' come in. You seem convinced you have heard of this issue.
Well.. the Subjectivity DOES come into play on most Prophecies but it is almost always regarding A SPECIFIC WORD DEFINITION and rarely has anything to do with THE CLEAR MEANING AND LITERAL EXPLANATION of the events or objects themselves.

Perfect example in the Gates Prophecy.
There is NO RIGHT for 'Subjectivity' when it comes to the Objects themselves.
The Gates are cleary described, the events are explained and the timeline is established.
(Please note.. you 'can' interpret them to be Cats and Peanut Butter sandwiches 'if' you so choose. That is not 'Subjective'.. that is 'Stupid")

Now.. YES.. there is room for 'subjective' speculation and interpretation of a particular aspect of a definition.
In this case 'Sealed'.
YOU may speculate the, in this case, the author intended to use the word in the most extreme literal and scientifically stringent way possible.
The Gates will always be 'Hermetically Sealed' and scientifically can have NO air or water pass throught them at any points.

This is technically 'fair' and yes that word can be open to some degree of subjective opinion.. since we dont know exactly the precise meaning and emphasis the writer poured into that word.

This DOES NOT LOGICALLY 'mitigate away' the clear explanation of the prophecy.
It does not make it 'Fuzzy' now.
Regardless of which extreme 'subjective interpretation' we put on the word 'Sealed' - it does NOT make the Gates themselves 'less real'.



[QUOTE]Ever prophecy I have EVER heard was fullfilled was so full of generic language, fuzzy facts and obscure language that it could be twisted to mean dozens if not hundreds of thousands of things dependign on what you want to prove.
I am not sure if I have ever read a bigger load of crap. You should read several of LuciferSams posts about Early Christianity then..

There is no such thing as interpretation without subjectivity. Lets take a look at this statement of yours.
Maybe I leave a note on your parked car that reads: "Sorry, but I backed into your car while backing up. The damage to your left bumper will be covered by my insurance company. Heres my number. My bad!

- Now, lets get something cleared up - You 'Can' interpret that note as being a Lesson about Cats and how they should not eat peanut butter'

After all .. that is just 'one interpretation' from 'your perspective'??
However, its not an intellectually valid interpretation.. and certainly not 'equal' to the common literal interpretation.
In addition - It does not 'mitigate' the literal interpretation does it?
No, of course not.
Would an observer be helpful and accurate if he declared: "Well... One person interprets it as being a literal event... and another interpreted it as a Cautionary warning about Cats and Peanut butter... 'Therefore' we will never truly be able to find any real meaning in the note!?

"Well that note was nothing but soft fuzzy 'anything' because there were at least two different interpretations right"

No.. There was just one person that is a moron and says silly things about notes.

Where does 'Subjectivity' come in. You seem convinced you have heard of this issue.
Well.. the Subjectivity DOES come into play on most Prophecies but it is almost always regarding A SPECIFIC WORD DEFINITION and rarely has anything to do with THE CLEAR MEANING AND LITERAL EXPLANATION of the events or objects themselves.

Perfect example in the Gates Prophecy.
There is NO RIGHT for 'Subjectivity' when it comes to the Objects themselves.
The Gates are cleary described, the events are explained and the timeline is established.
(Please note.. you 'can' interpret them to be Cats and Peanut Butter sandwiches 'if' you so choose. That is not 'Subjective'.. that is 'Stupid")

Now.. YES.. there is room for 'subjective' speculation and interpretation of a particular aspect of a definition.
In this case 'Sealed'.
YOU may speculate the, in this case, the author intended to use the word in the most extreme literal and scientifically stringent way possible.
The Gates will always be 'Hermetically Sealed' and scientifically can have NO air or water pass throught them at any points.

This is technically 'fair' and yes that word can be open to some degree of subjective opinion.. since we dont know exactly the precise meaning and emphasis the writer poured into that word.

This DOES NOT LOGICALLY 'mitigate away' the clear explanation of the prophecy.
It does not make it 'Fuzzy' now.
Regardless of which extreme 'subjective interpretation' we put on the word 'Sealed' - it does NOT make the Gates themselves 'less real'.

[Brocktoon]

Ever prophecy I have EVER heard was fullfilled was so full of generic language, fuzzy facts and obscure language that it could be twisted to mean dozens if not hundreds of thousands of things dependign on what you want to prove.

This is because you were reading Nostradamus Prophecies.

Add to that you probably do not know the context of Biblical Prophecies you are reading - therefore it sounds all 'Dreamy and fuzzy and 'could be anything'.



Take Johns Revelations on the Isle of Patmos.

You might just read some prophecy about 'Armour Plated Locust' with 'Hair like women" and 'Stings in their Tails"...



Crazy.. that could be 'anything' and 'nothing' IF you think you are just reading some wild rant without any context.



In Johns case, the text CLEARLY EXPLAINS that John himself does not understand what he is seeing either- he is literally writing what he see's IN A VISION - and not transcribing a clear defined explanation of impending logical sequence.

Could it be John is descrining Apache Attack Helicopters?

Maybe.. we dont know and he would not have any 'reference' for such a thing..

What WE DO KNOW.. is that the text clearly and literally describes John as seeing something HE DESCRIBES as an armour-plated Locust with 'hair' and sounds of Rushing waterfalls.



The fact we dont know 'exactly WHAT' does not 'Cancel out' that he DID.

You seem to think 'Any Unknown' about 'any' part of a Prophecy 'therefore' nullifies the clearly explained 'Big Picture'?



But lets look at an example of a 'Literal Prophecy' which is in a clear "This will happen and how" context:



Mark 16:17-18 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."



Now you seem to believe that this is open to any kind of interpretation. Hundreds you say?



Ok sure.. you can 'interpret' that its really a morality lesson about Cats eating Peanut Butter.

Your a Dumbass and No.. No it does not 'nullify' or equal in validity to the clear, obvious and literal "It is what it is" interpretation.

(which is not even 'interpreting' but simply reading the sentences as they present themselves!)



In the book of Acts (a documentary about the Apostles after Christ) Paul picks up (and is bitten) by a poisonous snake.



So, forget for a minute whether or not you have subjectively decided the Book of Acts is a false document...

... Why would you refer to this prophecy as 'Soft and Fuzzy and open to all interpretations?!

What part of "They will pick up Snakes" is so confusing to you PopThree????
Please, please share with us what literary school of thought allows anyone to sensibly argue that its anything but a prophecy about picking up snakes?





Read you bible and in tandem with any docuemtn claiming that hundreds of prophecies have been fulfilled and you will quickly realize that these people steal individual passages that 'supposedly' fulfill prophecy and never talk about the context of the scripture and how it has NOTHING to do with prophecy.

I have no doubt there are library's of 'Quack' Prophecy books.

Many 'Crackpot' theorists have their own TV shows now.



This is not logical to presume that because some silly 'prophecy expert' is being irresponsible (and fitting news events to 'match' prophecy usually) will somehow nullify, mitigate or 'soften' what really are cold hard facts.



I look for the facts.

Fact: Prophecy is made that the Jews will be dispersed throughout the world.

Fact: Jews were dispersed throughout the world.



Of course, you can say its a lucky guess.

I think you can say that about any 'one' or even 'ten' prophecies.



Its when 100's are put together, given even a conservative estimate and even giving the most 'soft interpretation' as intellectually honestly possible... and STILL I see Odds of around 100 Million to 1.

Then I have to say.. Hmm yes, its logical to believe (beyond a reasonable doubt) that the Author of this book has some SuperNatural 'Omnipotence' that can make his Word trustworthy.

[POPthree13]

All I would say to ALL of that is that I have trouble recounting a single biblical prophecy that was fulfilled to the satisfaction of all who interpret the bible.

I know you says hundreds have been fulfilled... by what source does this information come? I have heard that hundreds of prophecies were fulfilled when Jesus came, but when I start looking them up more than half are not prophecies at all, another 25% have NOTHING to do with the subject matter the prophecy collectors suggest it might, and the last 25% are so open ended and obscure that they could be read to mean any number of things depending ENTIRELY on what you want to find. The Jews do not beleive ANY of these prophecies were fulfilled in Jesus and I can't really find evidence to prove them wrong.

Example:
Zechariah 11:11-13
11 It was revoked on that day, and so the afflicted of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word of the LORD .
12 I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver.
13 And the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"-the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter.


Many christians claim that this is one of the most significant prophecies Jesus fullfilled. They say: "Here God indicates the Messiah will be (1) betrayed, (2) by a friend, (3) for thirty pieces, (4) of silver, that will be (5) cast onto the floor, (6) of the Temple, and (7) used to buy a potter's field."


I see nothing about betrayal, nothing about a friend. True thrity peices of silver were tossed into a house of the lord and THEN the cheif priest (who was obviously familiar with the prophecy as cheif preist) took the silver and bought a potters field. How convenient that the prophecy was fulfilled!

I prophecy here and now that $12 will be cast from my wallet into the liquor store to buy a 12-pack of Carona after work. Won't it be magical when I, who know the prophecy, find a way to fulfill it?


Besides that, the 30 peices of silver was owed to Zecharia... who says that's a prophecy at all? The fact that someone owed Zecharia 30 peices of silver and Judas received 30 peices of silver is THAT remarkably coincidental as to assume it must have been a prophecy?

[campbell34]

POPthree13,

"The Jews do not beleive ANY of these prophecies were fulfilled in Jesus and I can't really find evidence to prove them wrong."


-Of course they don't believe these prophecies and the Bible predicted that His own people would reject him. The Jews believed all the Messianic Prophecies untill around 1200 A.D. But after nobody else showed up, they started to believe that they would not be fulfilled literally. There was a certain time in history where these prophecies could be fulfilled and that time was during the time of Christ.



"I see nothing about betrayal, nothing about a friend. True thrity peices of silver were tossed into a house of the lord and THEN the cheif priest (who was obviously familiar with the prophecy as cheif preist) took the silver and bought a potters field. How convenient that the prophecy was fulfilled!"

(1)betrayal by a friend (Psalm 41:9; Luke 22:3-4; John 13:18)

-Question. Why would the Chief priest aid in fulfilling a prophecy that He said Jesus had no part in? The Chief Priest was trying to deny that Jesus was the Messiah, why would he purposely try to fulfill a prophecy that supported Jesus?

Your argument makes no sense.

"Besides that, the 30 peices of silver was owed to Zecharia... who says that's a prophecy at all? The fact that someone owed Zecharia 30 peices of silver and Judas received 30 peices of silver is THAT remarkably coincidental as to assume it must have been a prophecy?"


-This has nothing to do with Zechariah. It is the Lord speaking. For it says in Zech. 11:13,

"And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD."

Therefore, the Lord is speaking of Himself.

[LuciferSam]

You should read several of LuciferSams posts about Early Christianity then.. Heh, so you completely disregard anything I said about the early influences and variations of your faith? Please enlighten me, oh wise one, on the discrepencies then. You conveniently ignored responding to what I'd said earlier about it. I'll freely admit that you and campbell will probably always beat me when it comes to meticulously digging out bits of Bible scripture, but I do profess to have decent knowledge of early Christian history, and you've yet to give me a reasonable refutation. You may fling all the scripture excerpts you want at me, but their importance is negligible to me (regarding validating this gate theory in the real world) as the Bible, being faith-based, is just about as credible as any other religious book.

[LuciferSam]

Of course, any one particular prophecy could be said to be 'Chance'. The Gates could be said to be a 'Happenstance'. Fine. Whatever. The Gates haven't been proven to be so divinely protected rather than just being very well built. I won't deem the Gate prophecy valid unless all human means of destroying it have failed.


What happens is that you the laws of probability quickly.. very quickly catch up to you.
Eventually.. even being extremely conservative.. you realise that the laws of statistical probability, fluke, chance (whatever you like) all can NOT explain away the hard cold numbers. I don't chalk it all up to fluke and chance. I give the authors of prophecy enough credit that they're smart enough to make their predictions reasonably safe. When something occurs that happens to be related to some prophecy, I see no reason why it must mean the validation of that prophecy and thus the amazing vision of its author. There is such a thing as taking real-life causes into consideration, you should try that sometime. Why did the Jews get back into Israel? Hmm, well it's because the western powers and the UN put them back there. Simple as that, and whether it was prophesied or not is irrelevent to the events of history.

Its cold hard logical facts and an avalanche of mathematics. It may well be taking advantage of what's a predictable prophecy, or one that's so open to interpretation that people can always find some way to insist it hasn't been fulfilled yet or whatever. So sure, there's logic in that, "avalanche of mathematics" is a bit much but logic, sure. Logic, and not divine inspiration.

I look for the facts.

Fact: Prophecy is made that the Jews will be dispersed throughout the world.

Fact: Jews were dispersed throughout the world.
Hey I've got another fact for ya...

Fact: The Bible was derived from... *gasp!* Jewish scripture!

It's not difficult either to think, beyond a reasonable doubt, that scriptures based on Jewish and Zionist thought would predict that sort of thing. Religions naturally are wont to say their constituency are a special people who'll have good things coming to them. Not too long ago, most Jews had a pretty shitty time suffering from rampant anti-Semitism, not a particularly blessed lot in life. Now they've had a better time of it, more or less, over the last half-century, in part because they've gone through enough horrible shit to make their original persecutors feel substantial guilt to plant them back in Palestine, a well-meant but poorly-planned gesture. Things have, on average, been better for the Jews. Ironically, the very Zionistic ideas that many of them credit their recent good fortune to of late may end up screwing them in the end if they don't snap out of it.

[Mui]

-The Eastern or Golden Gate, which was sealed for almost a 1200 years is a key part to Bible prophecy. Ezekiel recorded the prophecy about the closing of this gate. He told how the Lord brought him to the Eastern Gate.

And the Lord said to me, "This gate shall be shut; it shall not open, and no man shall enter by it, because the Lord God of Israel has entered by it; therefore it shall be shut. As for the prince, because he is the prince, he may sit in it to eat bread before the Lord; he shall enter by way of the vestibule of gateway, and go out the same way" (Ezekiel 44:1-3). In other words, this gate is reserved for the entrance of the coming messiah.

After twelve centuries of being sealed, attempts have been made twice in this century to open the Eastern Gate. The first was in 1917 and the second fifty years later in 1967. Muslim leaders in control of Jerusalem tried and failed to break the prophecy and open the gate. Each time, on the exact day the workmen were preparing to demolish the ancient stone, the hand of God intervened and the city of Jerusalem passed of Muslim control into hands of British in 1917 and the israelis in 1967. Each time, the Eastern Gate remained sealed as the prophet declared it would. Habakkuk explaines that prophecy must be fulfilled: "Write the vision and make it plain in tablets, that he may run who reads it. For the vision is yet for an appointed time; but at the end it will speak, and it will not lie. Though it tarries wait for it; because it will surely come. It will not tarry" (Habakkuk 2:2-3) (Jefferey, Messiah-1991)LMFAO!!! nice one.

[campbell34]

Mui,

"LMFAO!!! nice one."

-That's all you can come up with! You may be laughing but the fact is the gate is still sealed. Atleast make an attempt to prove this prophecy wrong.

[brothersun]

'Non-Literal' - (example) When Jesus said that god's harvest was like grain that fell on fertile soil he didn't mean he was going to plant us.


A whole lot of the 'good' (IMO) teaching in the bible are in parable and even riddle. Those who built many of the scriptures must have been aware that language and word meanings change, but morals embedded inside of stories often held the test of time - because they are abstract in nature.

Taking these stories literally destroys ALL of the meaning and wisdom they were meant to impart.
This is a silly arguement. The parables are allegory and it is stated as such. There should me know confusion between these and the day to day events of Jesus and his apostles. For example revelations is 99% allegory. And act of the apostles is to me taked literally.

[Brocktoon]

This is a silly arguement. The parables are allegory and it is stated as such. There should me know confusion between these and the day to day events of Jesus and his apostles. For example revelations is 99% allegory. And act of the apostles is to me taked literally.
Once again we have to remind ourselves of the obvious.
Simply pick up a New Testament and begin reading most any account.

You are immediately told what you are about to read. (an account)
What this is your reading (A letter, a Documentary, a Reminiscence)
The Author then clearly gives you place names, times, and often names authoritive figures who can be called on to verify what you are about to read.

Then the events are CLEARLY written as actual events the author is aware of.
Whenever one of the subjects in the account is about to give an allegory - The author will usually EXPLAIN THIS IS AN ACCOUNT OF AN ALLEGORY/ PARABLE...

Then the Parable that was spoken by the subject is recorded and attributed to the speaker.

WTF People?

Why is this so hard to understand for some of you?

The very fact you are quoting a 'Parable' and know its a Parable IS BECAUSE YOU TOOK THE ACCOUNT LITERALLY!
You LITERALLY understood this was a REAL DOCUMENT attributing a REAL event in which a REAL PERSON began to give a Parable.

Trust me.. I went through this when I was 18 years old.
I actually picked up a Bible and STARTED by reading The Book of Acts.
To my amazement - it is simply an account of the Apostles.

Its not 'Full of poetry' and 'Can be interpreted hundreds of mystical ways.. "
BULLSHIT...

Its a simple, easy to follow and document.
You clearly understand exactly what it is and what it intends to inform you of.

Oh.. and I think we have all had enough of the pissy passive-aggresive little comment from the critics who say:
"To not understand the Bible is meant to be an allegory, a morality myth and a parable of sorts - is to miss out on its true meaning"

Get lost with that. To take a clearly understood account of events and lazily imagine that its some wishy-washy poem is not only a great way to miss out on the true meaning but also a way to be really stupid and a git.

Brocktoon out.

[LuciferSam]

Okay, let's take the Book of Genesis for instance. Do you regard that as an account of real events? Correct me if I'm wrong but I never saw a preface saying "This is just a parable, by the way," yet it's clearly allegorical, and has been used so, or at least interpreted in ways to support various ideologies. The powerful Bishop Ambrose, for instance, shrewdly used the creation myth as allegory to say that the State was inferior to the Church's power, beginning the centuries-long power struggle between the popes and the kings. That curmudgeon Augustine used it to derive his idea of original sin.

The Bible still isn't such an absolute source. Throughout history people have pointed to whatever scriptures support their theses in theological arguments, and schisms come about this way. Usually the arguments that bring them about concern the nature of Jesus, his relationship with God, and the whole convoluted Trinity debate. One of the big reasons why the New Testament was compiled was so the mainstream Church could have a reference handy by which they could define and point out heretics (esp. the Gnostics).

[Brocktoon]

When you dont have a preface to explain whether the following will be Allegorical or Literal - you simply take it at face value.

Genesis simply describes a series of events from the beginning (of Earth) to the early Patriarchs.
It uses place names, references known people and more or less follows a sequential timeline.

There is no reason for you to presume its an 'Allegory'.
It is not 'clearly' allegorical.

Wether or not someone else, somewhere else has used an account for 'political hay' should not, logically does not change the intended meaning of the text.

If you read an article describing Bush Jr. as having addressed troops in Iraq - You dont start with the assumption that its 'Allegorical' (even though the writer didnt specifically say what he intended beforehand)

Further to that - Should Sen. Kerry make some insinuations, some political 'hay' out of it - it does not 'give validity' to your allegorical interpretation of the story, just because others twist the facts to suit themselves.

[LuciferSam]

I personally would consider the creationism part of Genesis to not be something to be taken literally, as creation myths cannot in any way be a witness account, of course. Completely faith-based. I think it has enough mythical elements in it to not be a realistic account.

I agree that interpretations that are made for "political hay" should not necessarily change the intended meaning of the text, though such cases are not uncommon. I have a pretty low opinion of Ambrose and his legacy, as well as the other Latin Church Fathers. I just meant to provide you with an example of a prominent religious figure using Genesis as allegory. And believe you me, it was done many times back in those days. Was it incorrect to do so? Were they wrong to consider parts of the Bible as allegory that were not specifically labelled as such? It is hard to say. No matter how you may insist the rules for interpretations must follow a certain way, the fact is people will interpret things the way they want to and the way they see it, sometimes too allegorically and sometimes too literally, if we can set standards for that. Who's a credible authority to say who's wrong? For political ends I think the manipulation of religion is never a good thing. But back in ancient times, politics and religion were much more enterwined then they are today, so you can expect a lot more theology back then to have some political motivations behind them. Generally, it was a matter of theologians trying to gain a following and trying to convert people to their side, which means power. And sometimes, arguments over the Bible's interpretations were just simply over plain theological squabbles, such as the divisive nature-of-Christ issue I mentioned above.

What I'm saying is that although you insist that the intended interpretations of the Bible are very clear-cut and unmistakeable, it has not been treated as such over history, and should tell you something about religion's very human nature. Religions have been warped and twisted all the time to suit the political ends of leaders, which I think you know well enough, and to me that really points strongly to the idea that organized religions are something less than divinely inspired. It is not my only reason for discrediting the absolute truth of the Bible and other religious scriptures, but to me it's a strong case.

[POPthree13]

Brothersun... I wasn't arguing. Brocktoon aksed what non-literally meant. I was telling him. I wasn't suggecting the whole bible is parable only what was meant when someone called some passages non-literal.
My only statement (not an argument) is that the most valuable teaching in the bible is in parable - including almost everything Jesus taught.

Campbell... I didn;t ask for quotes about Jesus' betrayal I asked where you see that in Zechariah. I have NO idea where you get that the lord must be talking about himself. Zech. tells us the lord told him to give his money away to a cause... so what?
Here's what Zech says about the shepard: "For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces"

Doesn't sound like the Jesus I have heard about. It is very convenient for christians to quote what works for them and leave the other 95% which makes no sense in the context of what they are trying to prove.

Brochtoon...
I think there is ample evidence that Genisis (most creation) is allegorical. Mainly if you look for lessons in the text there are many, but if you read it at face value it is nonsense... like Revelations.

[campbell34]

POPthree13,


"Campbell... I didn;t ask for quotes about Jesus' betrayal I asked where you see that in Zechariah."

"And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD." -Zech. 11:13

-I didn't give you quotes from Jesus' betrayal. I gave you a Bible verse straight from Zechariah

"And the LORD said unto me," -God is speaking to Zechariah.


"Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them." -The "I" does not represent Zecharaiah. The "I" represents God speaking of himself.

What God is saying here is that someone decided that God's worth was 30 pieces of silver. Was there ever a time in history when God was worth 30 pieces of silver?? The only time a historical figure was believed by many to be God was betrayed for 30 pieces of silver-Jesus.

"I have NO idea where you get that the lord must be talking about himself. Zech. tells us the lord told him to give his money away to a cause... so what? Here's what Zech says about the shepard: "For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces"

-The verse zech. 11:13 God is not telling zech. to give to a cause; God is telling zech. to cast to the potter the value that God was prised at.

Prised means value of. Another words what was the value of God? And it appears it was 30 piecies of silver.





The prophecies in the Bible can only be understood if you put them all together. If you just take one verse you will never see the entire picture.

[campbell34]

LuciferSam,

"Completely faith-based. I think it has enough mythical elements in it to not be a realistic account."

-There are many people who believe God parting the Red Sea is a mythical story. However, just a few years ago Ron Wyatt and his sons discovered on opposing shores of the Red Sea large pillars that are believed to be put there by Solomon. Government officials placed both pillars in an upright position and you will find them there today. It is believed it is the spot where the crossing took place. The markings on the pillars have chizzled into the stone the names of Solomon, Moses, Pharoh, Egypt, and Yaweh. Also all around the area are ancient stone writings referring to the crossing and the miracle.

Divers who have ventured beyond the shores are now finding charriots, charriot wheels, spears, and corral encrusted horse and human bones. The charriot wheels that have been located have been dated to the time period that Bible scholars believed this event occured.

Time is proving that the Bible is a literal book that has nothing to do with mythical stories. For more infomation check out his site...

http://www.arkdiscovery.com/red_sea_crossing.htm

[LuciferSam]

Your site sez...

"The majority of archaeologists today do not have enough faith in the Bible as the accurate word of God. The majority of archaeologists do not even believe in the exodus of the children of Israel from Egypt, according to Hershel Shanks, editor of the Biblical Archaeology Review magazine. They are skeptical of the biblical account, perhaps because of a lack of archaeological evidence in the Sinai Peninsula and a lack of faith. We cannot look to these men to tell us where or if the exodus took place."

Yea... that site suuure seems objective and unbiased. Give me sources from sites that aren't blatantly fundamentalist if you want me to pay any attention to them.

And at any rate, this doesn't quite parallel the creation myth in Genesis anyway. That myth is not set anywhere in the human world. Completely faith-based, as I've said. About as good as any of the other myriad creation stories out there.

[POPthree13]

"And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD." -Zech. 11:13

"And the LORD said unto me," -God is speaking to Zechariah.


"Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them." -The "I" does not represent Zecharaiah. The "I" represents God speaking of himself.

I still see NOTHING about betrayal in that quote (Zech 11:13). That's all I am asking for here...

So God IS talking to Zecharia there but then a couple lines later he is speaking to himself. 'Me' and 'I' change meanings that quickly huh? Seems God constructed to bible to confuse us all if this is the case.

I see what you are saying... you can't look at the prophecies individually, because they do not apply to what you are talking about. You must take away tiny tid-bits of text (COMPETELY out of context) and then twist them into a picture that makes your argument valid. Very convincing.

I can steal only what words I want from ANY book to build the message I want you to hear. If the bible were such an accurate prophecy from the hand of God I don't think you would have to stretch every single passage to build your case. Again... I don't think 30 peices of silver is a big enough coincidence to suggest Jesus must be God.

Here's a congresswoman who was payed thrity peices of silver to pass law... maybe she's the messiah?
http://www.zazona.com/ShameH1B/Library/Politicians/EshooSilver.htm

PS: Beyond all this is the fact that the bible was assembled so that is would proove itself valid. Inserting a little line like those that confirm this prophecy into a book where..
a) no origin copies exist
b) was written centuries after the events
c) had absolutely no oversight

...would be a very easy task indeed. I can write you a book FULL of prophecies that are then fulfilled. You could too.

I prophecy that in 1996 I will move to Colorado. An behold in 1996 I moved to colorado. Amazing isn't it?

[campbell34]

popthree,

"So God IS talking to Zecharia there but then a couple lines later he is speaking to himself. ‘Me' and ‘I' change meanings that quickly huh? Seems God constructed to bible to confuse us all if this is the case."

-Me, and I, does not change the intended meaning at all. As far as confusing , it's only confusing to those who are not looking for the intended meaning. The Old Testament is laced with over 300 Messianic prophecies. When reading them, if you reject their intended meaning, you are often left with verses that makes no sense. Some might call theses verses anomalies. The Jews of the past were very familiar with them.


"You can't look at the prophecies individually, because they do not apply to what you are talking about."

-No, they do apply to what I am talking about, they do not apply to what you are talking about.You said, I don't see anything about betrayal in Zech 11:13. Which is true. You will not find the entire life of Jesus Christ in one verse, nor would one expect to. This is why there are three hundred anomalies, which were written hundreds of years before Christ was even born. Once they are assembled, you have the entire life of Christ. You said a congresswoman was payed thirty pieces of silver to pass a law. And then stated maybe she was the Messiah? Well she would have to fulfill three hundred more prophecies to qualify. First, she would have to of been born in Bethlehem.(Micah 5:2) Second, she would have to be born of a virgin. (Isaiah 7:14) Third, she would need a messenger going before her, saying. "Prepare ye the way of the Lord"(Isaiah 40:3) Fourth, she would have to be a Nazarene. (Judges 13:5 Amos 2:11; Lam. 4:7) Fifth, she would have to be rejected by her own people. (Isaiah 53:3) Sixth, she would have to enter Jerusalem as a king riding on an ass. Seventh, she would have to be betrayed by a friend. (Psalms 41:9) Eighth, she would have to heal the blind/deaf/lame/dumb. (Isaiah 35:5-6; Isaiah 29;18) Ninth, she would have to be Crucified with criminals.(Isaiah 53:12). There are hundreds of these verses, and when you finish reading them all, you know who the bible is talking about. Remember, these verses are found in the Old Testament, which was completed hundreds of years before the birth of Christ. I almost forgot, she would have to be Resurrected from the dead. (Psalm16:10-11; 49;15). Fulfilling one prophecy is amazing. Fulfilling three hundred prophecies, that is Divine.

[POPthree13]

I still don't think you address the fact that you claim God is speaking to Zechariah ("...and the lord said unto me...") and then claim that in the same set of passages God is later referring to himself ("...goodly price I was prised at...") instead of Zechariah. Why would anyone (yourself included) assume that someone writing in the first person like this would change the me's and I's to mean different things. "Someone said something to me, and I told them price I was prised" Wouldn't it be confusing if I meant Jesus when I said 'I' in that statement but myself when I said 'me'? Who would assume form that statement that I was talkign about two different people? Unless of course I was just recanting what I had heard INSTEAD of actually READING the text.

Many christians claim Zechariah 11:12 prophecies that jesus will be betrayed for thrity peices of silver. Here is an example of such a site...(http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/prophmessiah.html)
If there is nothing about betrayal then the only coincidence is 30 peices of silver. This becomes no prophecy at all aside from the convenient (and not rare) amount of 30 peices of silver. 30 Peices of silver was the standard price for a slave at the time.

I do not beleive this is a prophecy at all. This biblical website agrees with me:
http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/zechariah/zechariah11.htm

My point is only that I have been unable to find a single (one, uno , 1) prophecy in the bible that has not been stretched to these great lengths to support to ideas they want to spread (ie: Jesus is the one and only Lord of the bible).

We can argue about each and every one if you would like. I am not at all trying to focus on this single verse we just happen to be analyzing this one. Any prophetic verse you can come up with in support for Jesus' validity I feel I can adequately refute. You have already conceeded this one... this so-called prophecy does NOT in ANY way say that ANYONE will be betrayed for thrity peices of silver. Case closed. Regardless of the fact that it is not a prophecy and biblical scholars agree Zechariah the prophet didn't write it.

[Brocktoon]

If I can generalise for a minute, there is a peculiar logic problem which seems shared by both PoPThree and LuciferSam and it needs to be dealt with before you start wrangling with anything further...


Both of you have a strange rationalisation when it comes to 'mitigating' or 'explaining away' the signifigance of fulfilled prophecy which seems to follow along these lines.

- A Prophecy has been made. (You/We all agree so far)

- The Prophecy was fulfilled somewhere along the lines of history (This you agree with too)

Then.. wierdly... You insist that because the prophecy was fulfilled by forces other than Jews/Christians - therefore - (You 'reason') it has 'Nothing to Do' with the The Original Prophecy (HuH?) and 'Therefore' it (somehow?) removes credibility and validity from the prophecies accuracy.

Further to this bizarre mislogic - You give as some 'example' the complete opposite of what you just claimed to have railed against.
Example: You draw a comparison to YOU fulfilling a Prophecy YOURSELF.

Just what are you trying to have both ways anyway??

Forces 'outside' the Biblical text (and centuries later) should (by your standards) validate and give credibility to the Prophecy.
In any case - The Prophecy fulfilled is still a Prophecy Fulfilled is it not?

So here is an example you are really looking for:

-YOU predict the liquor store will be burned to the ground and rebuilt.

-Thugs from another city, with no relation to you or your relation to the Liquor store, burn down the store...
..ten years later its rebuilt..

That is what your looking for as an example.
-The prophecy is 100% accurate.
-The prophecy is NOT less accurate because forces having nothing to do with you carried it out.
-IF ANYTHING - The Prophecy is more impressive because outside forces carried it out.

In anycase, the Prophecy IS 100% accurate.

Please get back to me if you continue have trouble thinking this fundamental premise through.
I hope that explained whats gone wrong.. but if not we can go over it again.
Then..
You can go onto happy discussion about the finer things of prophecy fulfillment

[LuciferSam]

I Then.. wierdly... You insist that because the prophecy was fulfilled by forces other than Jews/Christians - therefore - (You 'reason') it has 'Nothing to Do' with the The Original Prophecy (HuH?) and 'Therefore' it (somehow?) removes credibility and validity from the prophecies accuracy. What I say is that the prophecies are not necessarily the cause of their fulfillment, and just like most things involved with religion, are a matter of faith and not of concrete logic. Prophecies tend to be vague enough that people who want to perpetuate faith in them will find some way to insist they are still valid. Many prophecies seem to go like this, in my view: If they're not fulfilled, the faithful will insist that they will be in time, mark their words, and woe upon the doubters. If they do happen to be fulfilled, then the faithful will hop and skip about it and claim it as a validation of their faith. The best-constructed prophecies are made in a way so that people can find a way to claim either of the two above scenarios. Even if it become very difficult to do so, people will then start to look beyond literal meanings and say the prophecy must have some true meaning that hadn't been interpreted yet.

If I'm reading you correctly, you find it perplexing that I say that prophecies are fulfilled by "forces other than Jews/Christians," taking the case of the Jews returning to Israel, the UN and the Western Powers, right? I say so because the concrete fact is that those powers were the reason why the Jews were able to come back to Israel. Fact. Ah, but the prophecy! The prophecy is just a prophecy, it played no concrete part in the Jews' return, and its only validity is founded upon peoples' will to believe in it. The faithful might cry "Ooh! Well that's what God meant to happen!" Go on saying that, but I don't consider that as legitimate proof of anything about your faith, except that it's opportunistic, something successful religions thrive upon.

Is the fulfillment of those prophecies supposed to mean that your faith is correct? Only if you will yourself to believe in it, and thus it cannot be used for objective reasoning. I look at history to see why events have happened in the past, not prophecies, and I consider them irrelevant. Prophecies come and go. Many more of them than anyone probably ever knows have been made in ancient times, and whether they were fulfilled or not they've been forgotten and whatever relevance anyone believed they had is gone. Christianity happened to be a fortunate religion that gained the ear of a massive power (the Roman Empire), and maneuvered itself into a position of power so that it could try to realize its goals, for better or worse. Had that not happened, no one would be caring about Christian prophecies today.

History > Prophecy = (In my view) Shrewd people making predictable or vague prophecies = (In the eyes of the faithful) The Bible must be divinely inspired! Praise da Lawd!

Once again, it all boils down to faith.

Further to this bizarre mislogic - You give as some 'example' the complete opposite of what you just claimed to have railed against.
Example: You draw a comparison to YOU fulfilling a Prophecy YOURSELF. I think Popthree's little mock prophecies are meant to portray the triviality of prophecies, and how easy it can be to claim a fulfilled prophecy. We're arguing that prophecies aren't such a remarkable feat as you claim. The only reason you guys think these fulfilled prophecies are so amazing are because they're in your faith's holy book

-The prophecy is NOT less accurate because forces having nothing to do with you carried it out.
-IF ANYTHING - The Prophecy is more impressive because outside forces carried it out.

In anycase, the Prophecy IS 100% accurate.
Ok, and then...? The fact is the prophecy still isn't remarkable by any sort of objective standard. The only thing that validates prophecy as a legit "prophecy" and not just making vague/predictable predictions is the faith in the people who made them.

[campbell34]

Lucifersam,

"Give me sources from sites that aren't blatantly fundamentalist if you want me to pay any attention to them."

Many who were taught the theory of evolution, believed it was fact. After one hundred years, evolutionist could never prove their theory by the fossil record. Now, scientist in growing numbers are finding the courage to finally speak out against this failed theory. It is apparent to many, the only thing changing with evolution, is the theory itself. To add insult to injury, at the same time the theory is faltering, Christian archaeologist are discovering ancient artifacts that are confirming what Christians had believe all the time. Simply put, those old Bible stories really happen, and were not just simple allegory. Now we will get to see the die hard evolutionist, who have always postured themselves as the voice of reason, go nuts. When Christians present archaeological facts that support the bible, the evolutionist are now screaming. "It's not true. Those are Christians that found those chariot wheels in the Red Sea, I'm not listening to them. It was the Christians that found those ancient pillars on both sides of the Red Sea crossing site. It was Christians that pointed out the chiseled names of Egypt, Death, Pharaoh, Moses, Yahweh, in the ancient stone. It was Christians that discovered at the Red Sea crossing site, the coral incrusted chariot parts, and dead mens bones. Don't believe them, why they are fundamentalist Christians. Why this evidence is not worthy of out scientific review."
Evolution is dying, because there is no evidence to keep it alive, and the Bible is passing it by, because the evidence is there. Evolutionist have said that Christians only have blind faith. The real blind faith believers, are those who worship the dying religion of evolution, who's priest are now losing their faith.
Right now if I was an Evolutionist, I think I would go to the nearest Natural History Museum and say five Charles Darwins, and ask God Darwin to quickly send me fossils showing obvious trans-species in the fossils record before my religion crashes. You know, I wouldn't hold my breath.

[FreakyJoeMan]

"Now, scientist in growing numbers are finding the courage to finally speak out against this failed theory. It is apparent to many, the only thing changing with evolution, is the theory itself. "

Okey, firstly, I'd like to see some names and the credentials of said scientists. Secondly, since when is changing a theory to include new data bad??? Why do people think that the world is fucking static???? Listen, theories, like everything else in the universe, change. It's the only fucking constent in the universe!! AHHHHHHHHH!(Head a-splodes due to hurtness in brain)

[Brocktoon]

I think there is a stumbling block to this discussion when several of the posters will not simply acknowledge facts clearly observable to all.

For example: Tyre was prophecied to be destroyed and never rebuilt to more than a fishermans village.
This prophecy did indeed come true.

Im not asking you to accept it 'Proves Christianity' or even insisting it could be something coincidental or not -

However...

You have to agree that - in this case- YES .. that was prediction DID come true.
If you insist on denying something as straightforward as that or pretending that your opinions on its signifigance or intention can somehow 'nullify' the basic facts......
...Then there is not much point in going further is there?

After all.. even if 140 Prophecies are found to have 'born out' - you will be able to systematically 'Nullify' everyone with your opinion they are coincidental.
Thats too bad.

Now this has suddenly swerved into a discussion on Evolutionism?!

Can I suggest that be moved to its own thread somewhere.. it really doesnt have a lot to do with the Eastern Gate Prophecy (which, although shown to have been fulfilled - will be 'nullified' by the two critics because 'it happened' and therefore doesnt 'count' even if it was predicted by a Biblical author)

[rasa4jc]

However...

You have to agree that - in this case- YES .. that was prediction DID come true.
If you insist on denying something as straightforward as that or pretending that your opinions on its signifigance or intention can somehow 'nullify' the basic facts......
...Then there is not much point in going further is there?


Ok... opinions make things ugly. I agree with you on that. Believing in something is not hard to do. Anyone can believe in something. I am not impressed with faith. I am not impressed with faith in an opinion. I am however impressed with truth and acknowledgement of that truth. If someone just flat out says, "I believe a lie because the truth is not convenient for me at the moment." Well... the truth is not bent. It does not change. It stands firm. So opinions move me not. They can change day to day. They can change by feelings and emotions. They are easily tainted by popular-opinion of the public. But truth... it is an absolute and is independant of thought or opinion. It does not need someone to believe in it to stand. It does not need a follower to remain truth. It is true whether one chooses to put faith in it or not. It will always win. That is why the only thing I strive to do in life is to know the truth and live according to it, because even my own opinion of it will be worth nothing. Only what it really is matters.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life.

[Brocktoon]

I guess what Im saying is that we must have some standard of rational sequence before anyone can move on to deeper levels of discourse like 'The object of the betrayal' in the 30 pieces of silver Prophecy.


A good example would be this 'Tyre Prophecy'.

LuciferSam and PopThree have a peculiar way of jumping over step one 'because' they imagine it nullified by a 'step two' they have waiting.. and therefore step one is 'null' in 'the first place.

Crazytalk.

We really should start by agreeing on only one thing: The Tyre Prophecy was fulfilled.

The...(and only then)...

We can debate whether or not it was sheer coincidence, that it was predictable based on informed intuition, that it was 'probably' going to happen in x-amount of years anyway, etc, etc.

Now that LUciferSam, PopThree and Campbell and myself ALL agree that the Tyre prediction was fulfilled - NOW we can debate these issues rationally.

In this case, Tyre's destruction came about mostly by 'outside of the Bible' forces, who had no interest in the Prophets, The Jews and their reasons for destroying Tyre were essentially 'Their own business'.

LuciferSam insists this 'explains away' the credibility of the possibility of divine inspiration of the Prophecy.

I suggest that it is the very thing that lends credibility to the Prophecy - after all, had Jewish Armies raized the city, a good argument could be made that they were 'self-fulfilling' their own prophecy.

The last poster has made a very good point - True is true and in this case, Tyre was demolished and never rebuilt. Indeed, it is, to this day 'A place for fishermen to cast their nets'.
(it really is a fishing village now).

This is true. Period.
No, LuciferSam, it does not become more or less true based on who is putting 'faith' into the prophecy.
Tyre is now a fishing village whether you, me, Campbell or Anton Lavey jr want to 'put faith' in the Tyre Prophecy or not.

See what Im saying.

[Real American]

Nowhere in the Bible does it declare that Jesus will return.Try reading it :)


"So when they had come together, they asked Him, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which The Father (http://www.keyway.ca/htm2002/father.htm) [see also The Logos (http://www.keyway.ca/htm2002/logos.htm)] has fixed by His own authority. But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea (http://www.keyway.ca/htm2000/20000217.htm) and Samaria (http://www.keyway.ca/htm2002/samaria.htm) and to the end of the earth."

And when He had said this, as they were looking on, He was lifted up, and a cloud took Him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as He went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, "Men of Galilee (http://www.keyway.ca/htm2002/galilee.htm), why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, Who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw Him go into heaven." Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem." (Acts 1:6-12 RSV)

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken [see Signs In The Heavens (http://www.keyway.ca/htm2002/signheav.htm)]; then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory; and He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (Matthew 24:29-31 RSV)

"Then The Lord will go forth and fight against those nations as when He fights on a day of battle. On that day His feet shall stand on The Mount Of Olives (http://www.keyway.ca/htm2002/mtolives.htm) which lies before Jerusalem (http://www.keyway.ca/htm2002/jerfacts.htm) on the east; and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley; so that one half of the Mount shall withdraw northward, and the other half southward [see Earthquake! (http://www.keyway.ca/htm2002/earthqua.htm)]. And the valley of my mountains shall be stopped up, for the valley of the mountains shall touch the side of it; and you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then The Lord your God will come, and all the holy ones with Him." (Zechariah 14:3-5)

"For The Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet The Lord in the air." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 RSV) [see The Last Day (http://www.keyway.ca/htm2002/lastday.htm)]

"And The Lord will become king over all the earth; on that day The Lord will be one and His Name one." (Zechariah 14:9 RSV) [see King Of The Mountain (http://www.keyway.ca/htm2002/kingmoun.htm)]

"It shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the house of The Lord shall be established as the highest of the mountains, and shall be raised up above the hills; and peoples shall flow to it, and many nations shall come, and say: "Come, let us go up to the mountain of The Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; that He may teach us His ways and we may walk in His paths." For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of The Lord from Jerusalem. He shall judge between many peoples, and shall decide for strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more; but they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree, and none shall make them afraid; for the mouth of The Lord of hosts has spoken." (Micah 4:1-4 RSV) [see The Kingdom of God (http://www.keyway.ca/htm2002/kingdom.htm)]

"And he said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. And The Lord, the God of the spirits of the Prophets (http://www.keyway.ca/htm2002/prophets.htm), has sent His angel to show His servants what must soon take place. And behold, I am coming soon." Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book." (Revelation 22:6-7 RSV)
Info pulled from http://www.keyway.ca/htm2002/theretrn.htm

[LuciferSam]

Firstly I'll second Brocktoon on keeping this from going into evolutionism. We've enough to banter about in this thread already:) Frankly I'm not that staunch of an evolutionist anyway, not that I buy creationism either.


This is true. Period.
No, LuciferSam, it does not become more or less true based on who is putting 'faith' into the prophecy.
Tyre is now a fishing village whether you, me, Campbell or Anton Lavey jr want to 'put faith' in the Tyre Prophecy or not.

See what Im saying.
*Yawn* Okay, so Tyre's a fishing village. Tell ya the truth I'm not really that familiar with that prophecy or the story so I'll have a looksee at it sometime.

Taking this example anyway, sure, the Tyre prophecy has been fulfilled... I am not arguing whether if something has happened is true or not.

I meant it is the "divine inspiration" part of the prophecy that becomes more or less true based on who puts faith into the prophets' divine vision. That is what is in question, that is your whole basis for saying the Bible is the absolute truth and all that good stuff. And as I said, to you, those prophets must have been inspired by God. To me, they needn't be, and I doubt it just as much as any religious doctrine. And I don't even chalk all these fulfillments to a completely-random sort of coincidence, as if all they did was shake a Magic 8-Ball. As I said many prophecies that hold tend to be vague, predictable, and/or calculated.

And who says this Eastern Gate prophecy has been fulfilled for good? I know this won't be done but I'd really love to see someone take a wrecking ball or some dynamite to this gate. I would if I was given the means. I would only accept your prophecy if it came through undamaged and people could still not go through it, etc etc. IF someone happened to blow a hole in the Gate, and shimmied on through it, would you then say the prophecy was... not fulfilled?

[campbell34]

Popthree and Zechariah 11:13


Anyone reading this verse honestly, will acknowledge, that it is clearly stating that at a point in time. God's worth was determined to be thirty pieces of silver. Your dishonesty runs so deep, that you can't even acknowledge the correct wording of the verse. Words mean something. You can't fluff off the wording of this verse, because it refutes your belief system. And then you say, you have successfully refuted it. What do you believe everybody is stupid, and believes your nonsense. All you have done, is deny what is clearly written. You are trying to reason your way out of the verses obvious and intended meaning. The wording of Zechariah 11:13 will not allow you to do that. A thirteen year old would understand this verse, and you can't? I accept this verse as it is written, you cannot. Because if you accept the wording of this verse, it will begin to lead you in a direction you don't want to go. You, like so many others, try this slip shot approach to skimming the scriptures. In reality, your whole argument is nothing more than deny, deny, deny, and deny again.

[campbell34]

LuciferSam,

"As I said many prophecies that hold tend to be vague, predictable, and/or calculated."

If you are talking about bible prophecy no statement could be farther from the truth. The prophecies that you say are vague are only so because you are unfamiliar with them. The bible is not like a book that you read once or twice and put down. It must be studied. The more you read the more the book opens up to you.

Predictable? Just the prophecies of Christ first coming spanned over a thousand years. Many writers of the bible wrote about Jesus and knew nothing about him. By the time the last writer was finished, there was three hundred prophecies concerning Christ first coming. I might point out, all three hundred prophecies of Christ were fulfilled to the letter by him four hundred years after the last writer died.

Calculated? How does a writer calculate crucifixion before it exist. How does a writer calculate that messiah will be born in Bethlehem 400 years before he is born? How does a writer calculate that the messiah well be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver? How does a writer calculate that his own people will reject him? How does a writer calculate he will be Resurrected from the dead?
How does a writer calculate that the gentiles will flock to a Jewish messiah? I could go on but you get the point. When these prophecies are assembled, there is nothing vague, nothing predictable, and nothing calculated. The power of this book is demonstrated, by prophecies that cannot fail.

[LuciferSam]

Forgive me, but your dogmatic enthusiasm for your faith kinda makes me hesitant to take your affirmations at face value. Wherever have you verified all these hundred of prophecies and their fulfilments etc. etc? I hope not from zealous sites like the one you showed me on Biblical archeological finds. The Church's history is notoriously revisionist. In other words, are you sure your certainties about all these prophetic truths aren't at least partially the product of your extreme will to believe in them?

When these prophecies are assembled, there is nothing vague, nothing predictable, and nothing calculated. If you believe so easily that all these things have come to pass, then sure. To me it is definitely not beyond the Church to have rewritten a lot of history. They erased much of the Gnostics' legacy forever when they burned their texts and persecuted them as heretics.

And sure, you can calculate many of those prophecies. Crucifixion was not uncommon in the Roman era, it's not a stretch to predict that a rebellious Jewish spiritual leader who defies Roman authority would be put to the cross. And what prophecies are these that supposedly predict Jesus' coming beforehand, etc.? You're speaking of the Jewish prophecies that predicted the coming of a messiah?

The power of this book is demonstrated, by prophecies that cannot fail. Hehe, well you are admirably sincere, I'll give you that. I'm still extremely skeptical of all things supernatural and that includes your prophecies, which is my nature I guess. I never thought you guys took the prophecies to heart so much, this commitment to believing that all these prophecies were god-inspired and so forth. To tell you the truth prophecies really don't factor much in my belief systems at all. They're not important to me, or else I might've been believing in all sorts of mystical stuff already. I still argue your points on the prophecies and such only because I acknowledge I'm kinda arguing on your turf, so to speak. But anyway, I've always looked at the history of Christianity, and I see much that points to corruption, power-politics, greed, etc. In other words, that organized religion is a very human thing and shows little more than the sheer power of controlling the beliefs of man. You on the other hand have your prophecies. To each his own I guess. I'll continue to debate, I've found it an interesting discussion really, but I'm getting the idea that our viewpoints on the integrity of Christianity and its institutions may be too far apart to see eye to eye.

[strawpuppy]

Lovely piece of writing...I comprehended it all the way and fully understand how beautifull it is...

[drewbee]

Offense Intended here, but why are you Christians SO GOD DAMN PRUDENT? You act as if you are the right ones, the only right ones, and everyone else is wrong. What makes you so RIGHT?

Yeah we have the bible. Big fucking deal, its a book. It is sold on ebay. Although the stories from the bible entertained me as a kid, their inaccuracy and bologny (sorry, lack of a better term).

IF HE IS TO RETURN LET HIM. WHERE IS YOUR DAMN SAVIOR WHERE IS HE? WE CAN GO ON YEAR AFTER YEAR AFTER YEAR AFTER OF HOW HE IS GOING TO RETURN, but ? I dont see him? I still see christians here. They are a disease to this planet. sigh... maybe one day they will learn. I can't wait till this earth/U.S. shakes itself of this annoying puritan background we have. Slowly dieing out they are, but in numbers existing they shall be (yoda) hehe. Hey guess what I did today, I burnt a bible
ewwww ahh. Aren't I suppose to get struck by lightening sometime here? We should all go sacrafice a goat. Oh never mind, because a dude died, we dont have to sacrafice goats anymore.

Jesus did exist, he taught and whatnot, then he died, slain as it were.

You are just trying to justify an existence[yourself] that has no meaning or purposem, just as the rest of us. We Live we die. Nothing more then that. Beleive what you want, i'l lbelieve what I want. Stop acting like your the only one that is right though ~ typical christian ignorance.

[JesusDiedForU]

Offense Intended here, but why are you Christians SO GOD DAMN PRUDENT? You act as if you are the right ones, the only right ones, and everyone else is wrong. What makes you so RIGHT?

Yeah we have the bible. Big fucking deal, its a book. It is sold on ebay. Although the stories from the bible entertained me as a kid, their inaccuracy and bologny (sorry, lack of a better term).

IF HE IS TO RETURN LET HIM. WHERE IS YOUR DAMN SAVIOR WHERE IS HE? WE CAN GO ON YEAR AFTER YEAR AFTER YEAR AFTER OF HOW HE IS GOING TO RETURN, but ? I dont see him? I still see christians here. They are a disease to this planet. sigh... maybe one day they will learn. I can't wait till this earth/U.S. shakes itself of this annoying puritan background we have. Slowly dieing out they are, but in numbers existing they shall be (yoda) hehe. Hey guess what I did today, I burnt a bible
ewwww ahh. Aren't I suppose to get struck by lightening sometime here? We should all go sacrafice a goat. Oh never mind, because a dude died, we dont have to sacrafice goats anymore.

Jesus did exist, he taught and whatnot, then he died, slain as it were.

You are just trying to justify an existence[yourself] that has no meaning or purposem, just as the rest of us. We Live we die. Nothing more then that. Beleive what you want, i'l lbelieve what I want. Stop acting like your the only one that is right though ~ typical christian ignorance.
Well as soon as you find a gate that any other relgions predicted it would remain sealed until their god came...remember to post that.... Christianity is seperate from all other relgions bc the bible is the only book that has been inspired by god(look at the prophecies)

In 2 Peter 1:20-21 "Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."

Also Jesus said "I am the way the truth the life. No one comes to the father except through me." The Bible states that Jesus is narrow and that few accept him but everyone has that opportunity... seek and you shall find.. ask and you shall recieve

[drewbee]

Ohhh so its all about this "gate". So every other religion is wrong in every way because they dont have a gate. Your a dumbass. If you could, please enlighten me to how it was inspired by god. God, HIMSELF, was their writing the book. yup. Maybe one day your eyes will be opened to the truth... If I had the money I would more then hapily take a crew over and open the gates. Did you ever think its for the simple fact that no one gives a rats ass? This is the new world, and that annoying puritan belief system will vanquish as it is. You need to learn and open your eyes man. The truth is out their, not, sorry as it be, in a little book where people say "man will live. man will die." <-- OMG that prophecy came true, so its the complete honest truth. You are blind, simple as that. And noone, not what I say, or what any one else sais to you will be able to change it, until it happens. And when It does, Im going to laugh my ass off. Until you have some kind of proof, and of course, not dealing with replies from the bible. Take your rubbish somewhere else, it is annoying a great deal of us...


Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."

So basically, man wrote what the little voices inside of their head said.


"I am the way the truth the life. No one comes to the father except through me." The Bible states that Jesus is narrow and that few accept him but everyone has that opportunity... seek and you shall find.. ask and you shall recieve
First of all, that green text shit is annoying, stop it.
Second of all, All those poor people before Jesus must be burning in hell huh? I mean they did not know of him, therefore had to sacrafice a goat. The poor people had no goats, so they went to hell. Hell spat the poor people out to get a goat. The goat is my friend, i shall not want.
That is the way, the truth, and the light.
Your just jealous my goat is better then yours.

^ That is the real interpretation of your damn quotes.

Learn this. Religion is man made. Organized religion is man made. You are in organized religion. It is just something to brainwash people. To give ease of mind, and comfort to things that cannot nor will ever be explainable. You believe what you believe because you fear. Why do you assume that you are here you are here for a reason? Maybe we just all die and nothing exists thereafter. No spirits, no souls, no light. Just death.

But I see it now, your replies and beautiful quotes have shown me the truth and the light. I will go pray now.



Dumbass.

[Brocktoon]

Drewbee,

Please shut the fuck up and go sit down.

[to the other posters: Had to say it - so sick and bloody tired of these morons who parachute into every discussion with these stupid 'Bill Marr' wannabe rants.]

Seriously Drew, come back when you have something to add.

For everyone else - GET OFF this childish retort which goes "Oh.. So just because [topic point at hand] .. then that proves your God exists eh!?"

Dumbass you.

[bandit28]

Wait wait wait, do it again, it made me laugh. Come into the forum titled "Christian" and tell me we are annoying you.

Brocktoon, I understand your frustration. Really I do. Simply view people like him as an uneducated child asking why the sky is blue. It is obvious he does not understand what we are talkign about here. It is obvious that he is filled with hate. Soemthign happened in his life that gives him the need to strike out at others not like him. He may point the finger and call us "sheep", yet I look at him and think he is the sheep. Following along with what the world thinks and says without thinking for himself. Without actualy picking up a Bible and reading it. No different than the rest of them.

As for you drewbee, prove to me that God does not exist.

[Brocktoon]

I dont know if I can even say its childlike.
Children have an excuse.

This is more like a Parrot.
You see these types in here all the time.. they are trying to emulate Bill Mar, Dennis Leary, Dennis Miller and Bill Hicks all in one lame attempt.
[and some of those 'cut the shit' comedians are over-rated anyway]

They just say the same crap (and its nothing more than insults and flamebaiting) and they cop an attitude that is supposed to sound so 'smart' and 'real'.

What you end up with are a bunch of college boys 'parroting' the same four 'burns' with an overdose of smugness.

[bandit28]

I agree. I just laugh at some, and then others I shake my head in saddness.

[drewbee]

And that is my point, you could prove me no different, while I could prove you no different, but yet we both add in our own words, yes no? If you followed what you had posted last, then you would not be "laughing at children" as it would be, but realizing that you are doing the exact same thing as I.


Simply view people like him as an uneducated child

In religion yes, but in any other field I could more then likely take you 10 fold.

As for something bad happening in my life? Naw, not really. Can't say that is has. I've been pretty content with it so far. Don't get me wrong here, it hasn't been perfect. But I definatly have no need to be "filled with hate" as it would be. If you really knew me (just as I do not know you), I am sure we would get along just fine. I am one of the nicest people you will ever meet, as well have the most care for natures animals. Hate? Naw... I just get a little upset and have to stick my nose in when people are parading around with the fact that they are abosolutely right and everyone else is wrong. This usually doesn't bother me either, until it is being rebuttled back and forth.

Trust me, I get a laugh out of you religious types just as much as you get a laugh out of me. No worries about that one.

[JesusDiedForU]

"Did you ever think its for the simple fact that no one gives a rats ass?"

-People would give all they had to prove Christianity wrong just so they don't have to be under the authority of God.... Look, people have websites just about proving the Bible wrong... There's books against the Bible... I mean just look at the great attempts that people make on here trying to prove the Bible wrong..... they hate God with a passion and main reason because he says that what they do is evil.


Here is your theme verse..
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

-1 Timothy 4:3,4


Also, I challege you and any army to attempt to tear down the gate... IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN... well until Jesus returns. Everyone is writing these books all they have to do is walk through a gate!

Jesus loves everyone and wants them to be with him and what does he get for that.... Everyone under the sun trying to prove that he is not God.

[FreakyJoeMan]

What I say is right becuz I say it's right, an if ya try to prove otherwise, yer goin to be unmercilessly tortured fer the rest of known existance. Hey, that sounds reasonable to me.

[drewbee]

"Did you ever think its for the simple fact that no one gives a rats ass?"

-People would give all they had to prove Christianity wrong just so they don't have to be under the authority of God.... Look, people have websites just about proving the Bible wrong... There's books against the Bible... I mean just look at the great attempts that people make on here trying to prove the Bible wrong..... they hate God with a passion and main reason because he says that what they do is evil.
That is what sets me apart from them. I do not believe, in any way, that what I do is evil. Unless you consider living life to the fullest evil.



Here is your theme verse..
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

-1 Timothy 4:3,4
Once again, another prophecy that is easily forseeable.


Also, I challege you and any army to attempt to tear down the gate... IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN... well until Jesus returns. Everyone is writing these books all they have to do is walk through a gate!
Well I'll tell you what, when an army comes to this gate and do not knock it down, get back to me. Otherwise, it is nothing more then any other gate to me.

"
Jesus loves everyone and wants them to be with him and what does he get for that.... Everyone under the sun trying to prove that he is not God.So rather, he gives us death, famine, disease and lets us suffer. Nice.




Got a question for you, I was pondering this today at work.

If it were proveable ( 100% gurentee aboslutely no possibility of it being wrong) that the bible, jesus, and god were proved to be a fake, would you believe it?

As it were reversed, and my version of "proveable" were to prove that he is real, I would believe. But I guess by your scriptures that would already be to late.

I think that is what sets us apart. The ability to accept the obvious.

Anyways, per request of the others, this is a discussion that cannot be proven either way, and thus will not venture a return from me after this.

Mai la lumière et l'énergie vraies de la vie vous guident
::BOWS::

[JesusDiedForU]

if the bible was found to be with out a doubt false.... i would not believe it


I believe it only because it is based on something.... unlike most religions were blind faith is required.

[airforcedrew]

That is what sets me apart from them. I do not believe, in any way, that what I do is evil. Unless you consider living life to the fullest evil.


Once again, another prophecy that is easily forseeable.

Well I'll tell you what, when an army comes to this gate and do not knock it down, get back to me. Otherwise, it is nothing more then any other gate to me.

So rather, he gives us death, famine, disease and lets us suffer. Nice.




Got a question for you, I was pondering this today at work.

If it were proveable ( 100% gurentee aboslutely no possibility of it being wrong) that the bible, jesus, and god were proved to be a fake, would you believe it?

As it were reversed, and my version of "proveable" were to prove that he is real, I would believe. But I guess by your scriptures that would already be to late.

I think that is what sets us apart. The ability to accept the obvious.

Anyways, per request of the others, this is a discussion that cannot be proven either way, and thus will not venture a return from me after this.

Mai la lumière et l'énergie vraies de la vie vous guident
::BOWS::
Ya know this is kinda off subject but.... I was working with a K9 unit last night, it was so fun. The dogs are so nice and obedient. There was one named Sabre, who barks at you if you look at him wrong. I think im gonna try to be a K9 trainer now.

Oh yeah and God is cool.

[Shane99X]

if the bible was found to be with out a doubt false.... i would not believe it


I believe it only because it is based on something.... unlike most religions were blind faith is required.
So what's to stop you from believing in Judaism and the Torah? Or Islam and the Quran? Or Scientology and all those crap books by L. Ron Hubbard?

Don't see much of a difference between those and Christianity and the Bible.

[FreakyJoeMan]

Except he's right because the bible is right, and the bible is right because it says it is. DUH!!!

[Shane99X]

Except he's right because the bible is right, and the bible is right because it says it is. DUH!!!Of course, How could i have been so blind?

"because the bible tells me so" is a perfectly legitimate reason to devote your life to it. :rolleyes:

[FreakyJoeMan]

See! If you jus use circular logic, all yer problems are answered.

[JesusDiedForU]

So what's to stop you from believing in Judaism and the Torah? Or Islam and the Quran? Or Scientology and all those crap books by L. Ron Hubbard?

Don't see much of a difference between those and Christianity and the Bible.

I have explain this time after time on here.... scientific archaeologic and prophetic proof is what seperates christianity from all other religions:

Here look at my site: http://r-campbell34.tripod.com/proof

[JesusDiedForU]

I thought I would bring this thread back from over a year ago because I liked the title and still have not heard answer...:rolleyes:

In a nutshell, God said well over 2000 years ago in Ezekiel that when this gate found in Jerusalem facing east is sealed that it will remain sealed until the messiah returns and walks through it. It was sealed in 1517 and it still remains sealed today after almost 500 years and after several attempts to falsify the prophecy.

Interestingly enough, in Ezekiel it states that the messiah would not walk though the original gate but a porch of the gate which was an addition to the orginal. How could Ezekiel even know about such an addition hundreds of years before it was built. On top that, how would he have know that it would be sealed and when the gate was sealed, it would remained closed until the messiah reveals himself and is exalted. Furthermore, the fulfillment was not brought about by those who believed the prophecy but those who did not believe the Bible.



P.S. This is the same gate that Jesus road through when He was exalted riding on a donkey on Palm Sunday... perhaps a little foreshadowing?

[Libertine]

The Eastern or Golden Gate, an atheist's worst nightmare


:eek:


:D ROFLMAO!!!!!

[JesusDiedForU]

Thanks fuzzy and libertine for perfect examples for what I was talking about... I continue to wait... the gate still stands and so does my faith...

[Libertine]

Ok, JDFU...just answer me one question.

How does a Gate and an unfulfilled "prophecy" prove the existence of your God?

[JesusDiedForU]

Ok, JDFU...just answer me one question.

How does a Gate and an unfulfilled "prophecy" prove the existence of your God?
It gives evidence to the Bible that shows that the Bible is exactly what is says it is "Inspired by God." Through the Bible we know there is a God. Mere men cannot predict the future with such detail, without any error.

Although you are against me Libertine... I appreciate a post without mindless dribble that I have been getting from someone else on the forums...

[JesusDiedForU]

ROFLMAO!!!!!
You ARE the KING of mindless dribble junior.

HOW does this gate prove the existance of god again? How does it PROVE the bible was inspired by god?

LOL! I'm dying for a response to this. LOL! :D

In a nutshell, God said well over 2000 years ago in Ezekiel that when this gate found in Jerusalem facing east is sealed that it will remain sealed until the messiah returns and walks through it. It was sealed in 1517 and it still remains sealed today after almost 500 years and after several attempts to falsify the prophecy.

Interestingly enough, in Ezekiel it states that the messiah would not walk though the original gate but a porch of the gate which was an addition to the orginal. How could Ezekiel even know about such an addition hundreds of years before it was built? On top that, how would he have know that it would be sealed and when the gate was sealed, it would remained closed until the messiah reveals himself and is exalted? Furthermore, the fulfillment was not brought about by those who believed the prophecy but those who did not believe the Bible.


Mere men cannont predict the future (in detail) with a 100% accuracy. You would call in amazing coincidence, I call it an amazing God incidence...

Please explain the bolded questions I have asked time after time...

Nice to finally see SOME sign of life in ya fuzzy

[Libertine]

It gives evidence to the Bible that shows that the Bible is exactly what is says it is "Inspired by God."

So, this interpretation you have of an unfulfilled prophecy and the existence of this historical artifact proves that the entire Bible is "inspired by God" and 100% true and accurate from a literal standpoint?!?

See, this kind of logic is what puzzles me.

Through the Bible we know there is a God. Mere men
cannot predict the future with such detail, without any error.

Through the Bible we KNOW there is a God? So, this is how you know there is a "God"? This book says so and is apt to being interpreted and shoehorned to fit your belief system? Mere men can predict future events, sure. And many have done so without error. Does that make them "gods"?

The future has been predicted even by SCIENTISTS in detail...and it has proven true. The future has been predicted by "psychics" and those things came to pass too. And so with the Bible...

However, this does not prove the whole Bible is 100% literally TRUE, nor the existence of the omni-max entity it calls "God".

Although you are against me Libertine... I appreciate a post without mindless dribble that I have been getting from someone else on the forums...

I am not against you. I am merely a skeptic who questions authority or authoritative claims.

[Cerberus]

Libertine, if you aren't with them you are against themhttp://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif

[Erise]

I would explain your bolded questions IF I actually BELIEVED in your holy book of lies. Sorry junior, I think the bible is a complete work of fiction. No different that a Stephen King novel or a Harlequin Romance. For me to argue what is written in the bible makes no sense because I don't believe in it or your stupid ass god.

How about you little fella. Dispute the FACTS that I set forth THAT COME FROM YOUR BIBLE. You can't. You lack the knowledge. You lack the common sense. You LACK period.
If the bible was a book of lies, the Eastern Gate wouldn't be standing. Jesus wouldn't have fulfilled over a thousand prophecies.

[Libertine]

If the bible was a book of lies, the Eastern Gate wouldn't be standing. Jesus wouldn't have fulfilled over a thousand prophecies.Wait up, Erise. I never said the Bible was a book of lies. You are generalizing by saying either it is ALL lies or ALL truth.

What I said was that there are truths in the Bible, but that one truth or hundred truths do not make the entire book true, nor do one or two lies make it all lies. However, since you all like to claim 100% inerrancy, even ONE untruth would kill your argument and you'd have to prove beyond any doubt that ALL of it was true.

HASTY GENERALIZATION and the EITHER/OR fallacies going on here. *tsk tsk*

I would like you to respond to my responses directed at JDFU, since he isn't going to touch them.

[JesusDiedForU]

So, this interpretation you have of an unfulfilled prophecy and the existence of this historical artifact proves that the entire Bible is "inspired by God" and 100% true and accurate from a literal standpoint?!?

See, this kind of logic is what puzzles me.



Through the Bible we KNOW there is a God? So, this is how you know there is a "God"? This book says so and is apt to being interpreted and shoehorned to fit your belief system? Mere men can predict future events, sure. And many have done so without error. Does that make them "gods"?

The future has been predicted even by SCIENTISTS in detail...and it has proven true. The future has been predicted by "psychics" and those things came to pass too. And so with the Bible...

However, this does not prove the whole Bible is 100% literally TRUE, nor the existence of the omni-max entity it calls "God".



I am not against you. I am merely a skeptic who questions authority or authoritative claims.
The sun rises every day and we believe that it will rise the next day based on the trend... Likewise, the Bible has never been wrong on it's prophecies and has no errors why should I start believe that it will no longer be stating the truth. The Bible itself says it is a book of truth and it can be depended on. Of course, I will check for myself (Question authority:rolleyes: ), but from the fulfilled prophecies and from the historical accounts I see what the Bible declares is the truth.

[Libertine]

The Bible has never been wrong on it's prophecies and has no errors ???

According to you and your interpretation, not according to others and their interpretations.

It's truly close-minded to ignore other "predictions" that can be apologized away through semantics (just like you and the others have done with the formerly demolished "Eastern Gate", etc.) Anything can be apologized away, thus such UNFULFILLED prophecies are not proof of the TOTALITY OF TRUTH of the Bible nor a GOD.

[JesusDiedForU]

[QUOTE=JesusDiedForU]The sun rises every day and we believe that it will rise the next day based on the trend... Likewise, the Bible has never been wrong on it's prophecies and has no errors ...QUOTE]

According to you and your interpretation, not according to others and their interpretations.

It truly close-minded to ignore other "predictions" that can be apologized away through semantics (just like you and the others have done with the formerly demolished "Eastern Gate", etc.) Anything can be apologized away, thus such UNFULFILLED prophecies are not proof of the TOTALITY OF TRUTH of the Bible nor a GOD.
The original Eastern Gate still exist, except it is buried. What stands today is the porch of the gate which Ezekiel clearly states that Messiah would enter through, hundreds of years before porch was built... I have already explained that to you...

[Libertine]

Ah...yah.

Now we're talking a porch. :D

Hmmm...O-K.

[JesusDiedForU]

Ah...yah.

Now we're talking a porch. :D

Hmmm...O-K.
Libertine I have been talking about a porch the whole time and so did Ezekiel 2500 years ago... Look at my original post... IF you read it fully;)

In a nutshell, God said well over 2000 years ago in Ezekiel that when this gate found in Jerusalem facing east is sealed that it will remain sealed until the messiah returns and walks through it. It was sealed in 1517 and it still remains sealed today after almost 500 years and after several attempts to falsify the prophecy.

Interestingly enough, in Ezekiel it states that the messiah would not walk though the original gate but a porch of the gate which was an addition to the orginal. How could Ezekiel even know about such an addition hundreds of years before it was built. On top that, how would he have know that it would be sealed and when the gate was sealed, it would remained closed until the messiah reveals himself and is exalted. Furthermore, the fulfillment was not brought about by those who believed the prophecy but those who did not believe the Bible.

[Libertine]

Was the gate sealed or the porch?

And exactly which is it?

Will he walk through a gate? or on a porch?

I think I should've left MrRee to discuss gates and porches with you, because frankly, I fail to see how a gate/porch and an unfulfilled prophecy along with a bunch of interpretations of what has been and what is to come is convincing enough to make me believe the 100% TRUTH of the Bible or Sky Daddy.

[FreakerSoup]

So jesus would have to dig a tunnel to go through the gate, no? Does a new one count?

If I were to blow a hole in that wall and walk through it, would that mean that I'm jesus?

I think the reason nobody has done it recently is not that they aren't jesus, it's that there are plenty of fundies that would be more than willing to gun you down before you can walk up to it. Christianity would not be very happy to have an atheist do that, hmm?

[JesusDiedForU]

Was the gate sealed or the porch?

And exactly which is it?

Will he walk through a gate? or on a porch?

I think I should've left MrRee to discuss gates and porches with you, because frankly, I fail to see how a gate/porch and an unfulfilled prophecy along with a bunch of interpretations of what has been and what is to come is convincing enough to make me believe the 100% TRUTH of the Bible or Sky Daddy.
The messiah will walk through the porch of the gate... says that right in the passage...

Then the man brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, the one facing east, and it was shut. The LORD said to me, "This gate is to remain shut. It must not be opened; no one may enter through it. It is to remain shut because the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered through it. The prince himself is the only one who may sit inside the gateway to eat in the presence of the LORD. He is to enter by way of the portico (porch... which had not been built till hundreds of years later) of the gateway and go out the same way."

[JesusDiedForU]

If I were to blow a hole in that wall and walk through it, would that mean that I'm jesus?
If you blew a hole in the porch of the gate you would prove the prophecy wrong which would prove the Bible wrong and which then would prove Christianity wrong.

I say go for it, and see what happens... but I am confident in my God's word... There have been past attempt to falsify the Golden Gate prophecy-none have succeeded... The gate still stands and so does my faith

[Libertine]

So, is this porch attached to the gate? And how can he come through a previously destroyed...er BURIED gate? Why didn't Ezekiel mention that?

And this is an unfulfilled "prophecy", is it not?

[IronGoth]

The FACTS are pointless.

No man has walked on Mars, either. It doesn't prove that God says we can't.

[IronGoth]

RE: you either have FACT or you have FAITH

I prefer the former to the latter.

RE: is the gate on Mars? You have totally lost me with that statement

No. Why would it be?

[IronGoth]

RE: My question was that i didnt understand why you quote me, saying it was a victory for Libertine?

Cause Libertine said something intelligent and you didn't.

Win/lose is not about convincing you. You've already said your mind is made up and facts are immaterial.

[JesusDiedForU]

So, is this porch attached to the gate? And how can he come through a previously destroyed...er BURIED gate? Why didn't Ezekiel mention that?

And this is an unfulfilled "prophecy", is it not?
Why didn't the Bible mention Ezekiel's eye color too... God has his reasons for what He puts in the Bible and what He doesn't...

At the time Ezekiel wrote the prophecy it was hundreds of years before the addition of the porch was added, how could he even know such an addition would be added and when it was added it would be sealed... it has been almost 500 years and it still remains sealed.

[JesusDiedForU]

As I understand the conversation (from what I remember through all these Gate post) is weather or not this meets the criteria for "prophecy" a prophecy means very little until it is fufilled. In this case the prophecy will not be fufilled until christ walks through the gate correct? So Im afraid I would have to give this one to Libertine
1)The Gate would be sealed = fulfilled

2)It would not be the original gate but an addtion of the gate that would be sealed = fulfilled

3) Anyone who would try to enter the gate would fail. To this date all have failed = partially fulfilled

4) When the Gate is sealed it will remain sealed. To this date it still remains sealed = partially fulfilled

[IronGoth]

You said you either have faith or fact.

We're arguing fact. I presumed you are arguing for faith.

[FreakerSoup]

If you blew a hole in the porch of the gate you would prove the prophecy wrong which would prove the Bible wrong and which then would prove Christianity wrong.

I say go for it, and see what happens... but I am confident in my God's word... There have been past attempt to falsify the Golden Gate prophecy-none have succeeded... The gate still stands and so does my faith
Well, you may guess, but I'm not going to be up for this anytime soon. So, using this as a hypothetical situation, what would happen? Say I went there with 30 pounds of c4 and a small mercenary army. What do you think would stop me? Would the wall resist the explosion? Would god strike me down? Would some non-miraculous thing happen to achieve the same result?

[IronGoth]

RE: you said the facts were pointless

I said YOUR facts were pointless. As in, they don't arrive at the conclusions you suggest.

[IronGoth]

The absence of proof is not proof of absence.

[Kharakov]

If god is such a fucking coward that he hides his existance from us and expects us to believe in him strictly on myth, I chose to REJECT him and EVERYTHING this cowardly bitch represents. Ha. See, you say that to people not believing in God. The funny thing is, when you finally know God exists, God is gonna remind you of everything you said about God just to scare the shit outa you before God let's you know it's all right.

[JesusDiedForU]

So we are dealing with 4 Prophecies not 1 then if so then Ill give you the benifit for 1 & 2, however 3 & 4 Ill not give you so easy. A partially fulfilled prophecy I believe I could make those kind of prophecies. What if I were to say,

someone named sylvester will enter the gate in exactly 128 years from now.
Now tomorrow will you say that my prophe
cy is partially fulfilled?
Yes what you should look at is that Bible cleary said exactly what has happened... that is it would sealed and it would the PORCH of the gate that would be sealed.

However, interestingly enough the last two are right on track on being fulfilled. That is the porch of the gate will remained sealed until the Messiah returns to shows His Glory. AND no one will enter through the porch of the gate and all that attempt to enter it will fail.

[JesusDiedForU]

Well, you may guess, but I'm not going to be up for this anytime soon. So, using this as a hypothetical situation, what would happen? Say I went there with 30 pounds of c4 and a small mercenary army. What do you think would stop me? Would the wall resist the explosion? Would god strike me down? Would some non-miraculous thing happen to achieve the same result?
I am not sure what would happen... The times that I know of when their were attempts to enter the porch of the gate was during times of war and they were stopped by other armies.

[JesusDiedForU]

I agree and have stated in the past the existance of the structure itself prooves nothing.

exactly its existance prooves nothing which is exactly what i said. It will take a future event to proove one way or another

if in the future christ walks through that gate I and everyone would have to admit it was a true prophecy.

if in the future the gate was breached by someone or was distroyed, I and everyone would have to admit it was all just a story a fallacy.
For the record, if someone was to walk through the porch of the gate and it was not the Messiah, I, JesusDiedForU, would renounce Christiananity.

The structure proves nothing?.... When Ezekiel wrote the prophecy of how the messiah would enter the porch of the gate... the porch of the gate was not even built yet... how could he have known about such an addition when it had not even been built until hundreds of years down the road (and don't tell me that was vague)?

On top of that, Ezekiel wrote that the PORCH of the gate would be sealed. But let me emphasize this again, the porch did not even exist when Ezekiel wrote about it but he gets more specific and says not only would the Messiah walk through the PORCH of the gate but the gate would sealed and when it is sealed it would not be re-opened until the Messiah returns.

Well the gate was sealed in 1517 and TO THIS DAY, almost 500 years later, it still remains closed...

[JesusDiedForU]

I admit this is intriguing, and may very well have been predicted by Ezekiel. My problems with prophecies such as this is what I call the Nutcase Factor. Say some guy wants this prophecy to come true immediately so he comissions the building of the porch, is it prophecy or is it someone trying to make a prophecy come true? I should really study more about this gate and the construction of the porch.
If I were to say JD4U will run for president and I begin to spread this around all over and people begin to believe this and when you read it you think "hmmm why not Ill run" is that prophecy?
To me there is only 2 ways to look at this (or anything for that matter) through Fact or Faith. I just have to many questions about this to rely on faith.
Im not saying you are totally wrong, this is just how my mind works and how i question such things.
When the porch of the gate was built

This (porch of the) gate was built in the sixteenth century, long after New Testament times. Several years ago, the Herodion remains were accidentally uncovered below this gate, indicating that it was probably built over the one used when Jesus visited the temple.


Why was the porch of the gate SEALED?

This prophecy was partially fulfilled more than 400 years ago in 1517 when the Turks conquered Jerusalem under the leadership of Suleiman the Magnificent (ARAB). He commanded that the city's ancient walls be rebuilt, and in the midst of this rebuilding project, for some unknown reason, he ordered that the Eastern Gate be sealed up with stones.

Legends abound as to why Suleiman closed the Gate. The most believable one is that while the walls were being rebuilt, a rumor swept Jerusalem that the Messiah was coming. Suleiman called together some Jewish rabbis and asked them to tell him about the Messiah. They described the Messiah as a great military leader who would be sent by God from the east. He would enter the Eastern Gate and liberate the city from foreign control.

Suleiman then decided to put an end to Jewish hopes by ordering the Eastern Gate sealed. He also put a Muslim cemetery in front of the Gate, believing that no Jewish holy man would defile himself by walking through a Muslim cemetery.

[JesusDiedForU]

Hey I have a question. What if your jesus tried to get through the gate already and couldn't? That would certainly put a crimp in "god's will" wouldn't it. I seriously can't believe you ACTUALLY BELIEVE this shit.
Okay, if Jesus, himself, could not walk through the gate, I JDFU would deny him and his words.

[Varuna]

So, the East Gate is sealed because Muslim's believe Jews and Christians want to harm them, or, at least, degrade their faith in favor of something else, right?

If I am reading this correctly, Islam holds the key to the Jewish prophecy about the appearance, or re-appearance, of the Messiah, or Christ (the Greek translation of Messiah), yes?

So what if Christianity and Judaism and Islam were to make peace with one another? What if Christians, Jews and Muslims were to wake up, look at reality and finally realize that their faiths truly are just variations of one another? (For what it's worth, so is Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Taoism, and so on). It is really all about creating some peace and trust and love and expanding consciousness and discussing truth and sharing wisdom and living the good life with your fellow humans.

Who wouldn't want that? Is that so hard to achieve? Does any one have a better idea?

If you could inspire people to trust one another and make that happen, then the gate would be opened for you, gladly.

Peace and Love

[Varuna]

On the other hand, maybe this is all just crazy talk, maybe we should all mind our own business and just go on living in a world where you you have to worry about staying on the Fundamentalists' and Jihadis' "good" side.

Peace and Love

[JesusDiedForU]

Do you have a time limit for this because you really don't know if he's even tried yet right. Or are you just full of shit (still)?
He will try in our life time... If He can part a sea then I surely trust He get through a gate...

[JesusDiedForU]

So, the East Gate is sealed because Muslim's believe Jews and Christians want to harm them, or, at least, degrade their faith in favor of something else, right?

If I am reading this correctly, Islam holds the key to the Jewish prophecy about the appearance, or re-appearance, of the Messiah, or Christ (the Greek translation of Messiah), yes?

So what if Christianity and Judaism and Islam were to make peace with one another? What if Christians, Jews and Muslims were to wake up, look at reality and finally realize that their faiths truly are just variations of one another? (For what it's worth, so is Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Taoism, and so on). It is really all about creating some peace and trust and love and expanding consciousness and discussing truth and sharing wisdom and living the good life with your fellow humans.

Who wouldn't want that? Is that so hard to achieve? Does any one have a better idea?

If you could inspire people to trust one another and make that happen, then the gate would be opened for you, gladly.

Peace and Love
Islams no longer hold the key... However, they were the ones who fulfilled prophecy... therefore showing it was not a Jew or a Christian who had their own messiah seaking agenda on mind. What if they were to all make peace with one another?.... that would not change the words long written down in the Bible. The porch of the gate will never be opened unless it is by the Messiah. Keep in mind that life is a test with only two grades: Heaven or Hell. There is only one remedy to get to heaven and it is not perfect harmony in the world (which will never happen) but through Jesus Christ.

[campbell34]

Well, you may guess, but I'm not going to be up for this anytime soon. So, using this as a hypothetical situation, what would happen? Say I went there with 30 pounds of c4 and a small mercenary army. What do you think would stop me? Would the wall resist the explosion? Would god strike me down? Would some non-miraculous thing happen to achieve the same result?
How ever you tried to open the Gate it would fail. I'm not sure how you would fail, but I believe it would be unwise to try. The Moslems tried twice to open it, and on the very day they did and on both attempts Jerusalem passed out of their control. First to the British in 1917, and second to the Jews in 1967. The Bible tells us, this prophecy will not fail. The Gate will be opened, only for the Prince to come.

[campbell34]

So, is this porch attached to the gate? And how can he come through a previously destroyed...er BURIED gate? Why didn't Ezekiel mention that?

And this is an unfulfilled "prophecy", is it not?
Not that many years ago the Jews discovered that the Orginal East Gate had not been destroyed but buried. In the Book of Ezekiel it states that when the Prince to come enters Jerusalem, He will do so through the PORCH OF THE EAST GATE. What the Jews also discovered was the Old East Gate which was buried perhaps a thousand years ago, has now become the foundation of the New East Gate that we see today. The writers that penned the prophecy would have no way of knowing that the Old Gate would be buried, and they could not of known that another Gate would of been built centuries later right on top of it. They also could not of known that men who did not believe the Bible, would seal up the New East Gate with stone, which fulfilled another one of the prophecies. Also, they could not of really predicted that all attempts to break through the New East Gate afterwords would fail. To know such things so far into the future, would require God's knowledge. The prophecy, will only be fully fullfilled, when Jesus Christ walks through the Gate. Until then, the Gate will remain closed. No one will be allowed to walk through it. The Anti-Christ to come will enter Jerusalem and proclaim Himself God. He will want all Jews to Worship him. He will come with signs and wonders. But when he is unable to enter Jerusalem by walking through the East Gate, the Jews will understand he is not God. Now will begin, THE GREAT TRIBULATION.

[Libertine]

LOL...this is really getting ridiculous now. I'll leave you and your gates and porches with Fuzzy and MrRee.



Not that many years ago the Jews discovered that the Orginal East Gate had not been destroyed but buried. In the Book of Ezekiel it states that when the Prince to come enters Jerusalem, He will do so through the PORCH OF THE EAST GATE. What the Jews also discovered was the Old East Gate which was buried perhaps a thousand years ago, has now become the foundation of the New East Gate that we see today. The writers that penned the prophecy would have no way of knowing that the Old Gate would be buried, and they could not of known that another Gate would of been built centuries later right on top of it. They also could not of known that men who did not believe the Bible, would seal up the New East Gate with stone, which fulfilled another one of the prophecies. Also, they could not of really predicted that all attempts to break through the New East Gate afterwords would fail. To know such things so far into the future, would require God's knowledge. The prophecy, will only be fully fullfilled, when Jesus Christ walks through the Gate. Until then, the Gate will remain closed. No one will be allowed to walk through it. The Anti-Christ to come will enter Jerusalem and proclaim Himself God. He will want all Jews to Worship him. He will come with signs and wonders. But when he is unable to enter Jerusalem by walking through the East Gate, the Jews will understand he is not God. Now will begin, THE GREAT TRIBULATION.

[campbell34]

LOL...this is really getting ridiculous now. I'll leave you and your gates and porches with Fuzzy and MrRee.
"To his astonishment, directly beneath the arches of the Golden Gate he found five wedge-shaped stones set neatly in a massive arch. Here, beneath the Golden Gate, were the remains of an earlier gate to Jerusalem that had been hitherto unknown." (Jerusalem: An Archaeological biography,p. 181)

DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT THIS MEANS? A section of Nehemyah's RESTORATION of this ANCIENT WALL and ENTRANCE GATE on its ORGINAL FOUNDATION IS STILL THERE!

If the prophecy in the Bible was true, then the orginal Gate would still have to exist. Because the prophecy states that the New Gate would be the Proch of the Old Gate. The Old Gate that they thought was gone, is still there, but buried.

Libertine, there is nothing ridiculous, what I have stated is true. Consider the evidence. You can read all about it at the web site below. And they show a photograph of the top of the Old Gate just below the East Gate we see today.

http://www.excel.net/~hoy/eastgate.html

[Sera Michele]

I just see an old site in Jerusalem and mythology surrounding it. I don't see how that proves the mythology true.

[Varuna]

So what if Christianity and Judaism and Islam were to make peace with one another? What if Christians, Jews and Muslims were to wake up, look at reality and finally realize that their faiths truly are just variations of one another? (For what it's worth, so is Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Taoism, and so on). It is really all about creating some peace and trust and love and expanding consciousness and discussing truth and sharing wisdom and living the good life with your fellow humans.

Who wouldn't want that? Is that so hard to achieve? Does any one have a better idea?

If you could inspire people to trust one another and make that happen, then the gate would be opened for you, gladly.

Peace and Love

But then, I do have a habit of repeating myself.

You know, it really is just as simple as this - "Love God, Love your neighbor, Love your enemies." Do you really need any further clarification?

Please tell me humans are more important to you than stones and stories.

Peace and Love

[campbell34]

I just see an old site in Jerusalem and mythology surrounding it. I don't see how that proves the mythology true.
Well Sera, if you don't think or consider the prophecy, then you will not see anything. The prophecy is true, if you slam the door to your mind and to the details of the prophecy then you will see nothing.

1. The prophecy states a porch will be added to the Old East Gate there is.
2. It states that the Porch Gate will be sealed, it is.
3. Prophecy said all attempts to break through the Gate will fail.they have.
4. The prophecy can only be fulfilled if the Old East Gate still exist. It does 5. The prophecies fulfillment will be during the time when Jews return to
Israel and control Jerusalem. They do.

Sera, this is not mythology, this is fact. And you are an eyewitness to these facts.

[Varuna]

Well Sera, if you don't think or consider the prophecy, then you will not see anything. The prophecy is true, if you slam the door to your mind and to the details of the prophecy then you will see nothing.

1. The prophecy states a porch will be added to the Old East Gate there is.
2. It states that the Porch Gate will be sealed, it is.
3. Prophecy said all attempts to break through the Gate will fail.they have.
4. The prophecy can only be fulfilled if the Old East Gate still exist. It does
5. The prophecies fulfillment will be during the time when Jews return to
Israel and control Jerusalem. They do.

Sera, this is not mythology, this is fact. And you are an eyewitness to these facts.

So, what are you suggesting? What do we do now?

[campbell34]

So, what are you suggesting? What do we do now?
The true Author of the Bible is God. He has given man a choice. And He has shown us that His words are true. Jesus Christ is the Son of God. The Bible states that all who give their life to Him will live for ever. Everyone needs to ask Christ into their life, and to ask Him to forgive them of their sins. Those who give their life to Jesus, will live with Him forever. The God of the Bible has stated, ''that no eye has seen, no ear has heard, the things prepared for those who love God.'' When you give your life to Christ, you step from darkness to light. God will seal you for eternity. Jesus said, ''those who are not ashamed of Me, I will not be ashamed of them when you stand before My Father.'' The prophecies of the Bible will not fail. And the coming of Christ is certain. Some will die before that day, but when you ask Christ into your heart. His Spirit will enter your body, and He will seal you in His love, for all time.

[JesusDiedForU]

LOL...this is really getting ridiculous now. I'll leave you and your gates and porches with Fuzzy and MrRee.
No please... don't run away... we would greatly appreciate your thoughts on all of this.

[JesusDiedForU]

What a great comedy! I wonder if there's going to be a sequel.
There will be a sequel, except it won't be a movie... and every tongue will confess and every knee will bow... including yours fuzzy.

[Cerberus]

Thought's on the ravings of lunatics? Hell yeah, I would run too but you freaks are amusing.

Hey this afternoon I took this monster shit and I swear, it looked just like jesus on the cross. I think it was my imagination because I just seen Passion Of The christ, that Mel Gibson flick that came out a couple of years ago. I laughed my fuckin' ass off.

What a great comedy! I wonder if there's going to be a sequel.
Should've sold it on Ebay.

[TrippinBTM]

Hey guys, I don't know about y'all, but my porch isn't built ON TOP of my door. It's in front of it...and yeah, I still need to walk through my door to get into my house. Walking around on the porch doesn't get me inside...

[spook13]

All right, for the sake of discussion, I'm going to accept that the gate is there as described, and by its physical existence fullfills a Biblical prophecy. That's all that has been proven...until the additional events that exactly fulfill the remainder of this prophecy occur, nothing more has been proven. You can only infer that these events will continue to occur.


Consider: St. Luke, Chapter 17, Verses 20 & 21

20. And, when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the Kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21. Neither shall they say "Lo here! or Lo there! For, behold, the Kingdom of God is within you.

[JesusDiedForU]

Hey guys, I don't know about y'all, but my porch isn't built ON TOP of my door. It's in front of it...and yeah, I still need to walk through my door to get into my house. Walking around on the porch doesn't get me inside...


The origianal name of the porch in Ezekiel is actually the word "portico"

Let us define it for you:
portico

n : a porch or entrance to a building consisting of a covered and often columned area

[TrippinBTM]

I'm just gonna delete this post and exit this thread.

[JesusDiedForU]

I'm just gonna delete this post and exit this thread.

hasta luego

[natural23]

Campbell,

I do not want to detract from the subject matter, here, but I just ran across this article and found it very interesting:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4411286.stm

My intuitive sense is that, in the near future, we are going find much more archaeological evidence regarding Jesus.


Peace,

David


.

[NaykidApe]

Edit.

[campbell34]

All right, for the sake of discussion, I'm going to accept that the gate is there as described, and by its physical existence fullfills a Biblical prophecy. That's all that has been proven...until the additional events that exactly fulfill the remainder of this prophecy occur, nothing more has been proven. You can only infer that these events will continue to occur.


Consider: St. Luke, Chapter 17, Verses 20 & 21

20. And, when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the Kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21. Neither shall they say "Lo here! or Lo there! For, behold, the Kingdom of God is within you.
When you accept Christ you become part of His kingdom, and it truly is within you. For when you accept Christ, His Spirit actually enters your body. Yet the Bible states that when Christ returns to this world, every eye will see him. The Pharisees were speaking of Gods physical return. Jesus was speaking of His Kingdom more in the spiritual sense, which involves all individually. The Kingdom of God comes to all who ask for it, and it does not come by observation.

[Sera Michele]

All I have to say about this is that this gate is not my worst nightmare. It is simply a structure with mythology surrounding it. There is plenty of that around the globe. It isn't going to scare me into believing in god. All I see is the twisting of circumstance and events to fit prophecy and mythology.

Trippin is right, a PORCH is in front of a door or gate (regardless if it is covered or has columns and arches on it). Porches are not on top of gates. The door to my home has a porch, it is covered, and my front door in not buried in dirt underneath it.

And I believe it was Varuna (or maybe someone else - lots of pages on this thread) that mentioned that people have used the gate in the past. So it was closed and reopened numerous times. That fact is convienently explained away saying that the last time it was closed it was "sealed" but that is just BS convienent for argument. It could be opened and closed again, and you would try to fit it in with prophecy claiming it is just now sealed.

Something more than prophecy is going to be needed to convince the average atheist that your god does exist. Prophecies and prophets are nothing more than psychics. We don't believe in that supernatural crap. Accuracy is obtained through prophecies by making forseeable predictions and keeping it vague (without detail) so it can be interpreted to fit many places or events. Most biblical prophecies are spoken and fulfilled in the same book, making those suspect as it is. Others are vague interpretations. For example, lands surrounded by water...could be australia, south america, europe, whatever. Surrounded by enemies, enemies to the north. Once again, could be anywhere in the middle east, europe during WWI, WWII, roman empire, ect...

You guys are free to believe your prophets and prophecies all you want, but don't expect me to buy it any more than I would by a psychic telling me I would fall in love with a tall man with brown hair at some point in my life. I myself can look at the state of the world these days and make some reasonably accurate predictions of future events. I could probably make hundreds, maybe more if I put some time into it. Especially if I had a indeterminate amount of time for these events to take place. Prophecy will not sell me on your book or your god.

There are my thoughts on the East Gate, since it seems you guys are interested. Don't worry folks, my sleep has been undesturbed - no nightmares.

[campbell34]

All I have to say about this is that this gate is not my worst nightmare. It is simply a structure with mythology surrounding it. There is plenty of that around the globe. It isn't going to scare me into believing in god. All I see is the twisting of circumstance and events to fit prophecy and mythology.

Trippin is right, a PORCH is in front of a door or gate (regardless if it is covered or has columns and arches on it). Porches are not on top of gates. The door to my home has a porch, it is covered, and my front door in not buried in dirt underneath it.

And I believe it was Varuna (or maybe someone else - lots of pages on this thread) that mentioned that people have used the gate in the past. So it was closed and reopened numerous times. That fact is convienently explained away saying that the last time it was closed it was "sealed" but that is just BS convienent for argument. It could be opened and closed again, and you would try to fit it in with prophecy claiming it is just now sealed.

Something more than prophecy is going to be needed to convince the average atheist that your god does exist. Prophecies and prophets are nothing more than psychics. We don't believe in that supernatural crap. Accuracy is obtained through prophecies by making forseeable predictions and keeping it vague (without detail) so it can be interpreted to fit many places or events. Most biblical prophecies are spoken and fulfilled in the same book, making those suspect as it is. Others are vague interpretations. For example, lands surrounded by water...could be australia, south america, europe, whatever. Surrounded by enemies, enemies to the north. Once again, could be anywhere in the middle east, europe during WWI, WWII, roman empire, ect...

You guys are free to believe your prophets and prophecies all you want, but don't expect me to buy it any more than I would by a psychic telling me I would fall in love with a tall man with brown hair at some point in my life. I myself can look at the state of the world these days and make some reasonably accurate predictions of future events. I could probably make hundreds, maybe more if I put some time into it. Especially if I had a indeterminate amount of time for these events to take place. Prophecy will not sell me on your book or your god.

There are my thoughts on the East Gate, since it seems you guys are interested. Don't worry folks, my sleep has been undesturbed - no nightmares.
The East Gate Prophecy has nothing to do with mythology, but is clearly talked about in the Bible. The orginal East Gate is not just a Gate but was a building, and that is why they could use it as a foundation for another building that was built directly over it. Also, a porch is an open or enclosed gallery or room attached to the outside of a building, a verandah. To think that a porch can only be built on the front entrance of a building is almost laughable.

Then you go on and talk about lands that are surrounded by water could be any number of lands. Do you even read what has been stated. It's like saying a combination lock with the number 7, could be for any number of locks. Yes that is true, but all the other locks would have to have all the matching numbers to open them. I believe you are talking about the prophecies that speak of America. And you might be able make one prophecy fit other countries, but only America fits all the prophecies. America is the nation of mingled races and people, it is the nation that is built on many waters. It has mounted up into heaven, it is the nation that speaks with a great voice in the world, it is the merchant nation of the world, it has made the merchants of the earth wealthy from her abundances, she has her own INLAND SEA. She has a DESTROYING MOUNTAIN. she has a large JEWISH POPULATION, she is a land that is beyond the rivers of Ethiopia, she is a land that glorifies herself, the nations stream to her. And this land is described as a COUNTRY, which ruels out the Continent of South America, and Europe. And the last time I looked, Australia does not have a destroying mountain, an inland sea, or speaks with a great voice. Anytime you only consider only 5% of what has been stated you can walk away confident in your own mind that your statements are correct. I would sugguest you consider all the evidence presented, before you make any conclusions.

[campbell34]

Hey guys, I don't know about y'all, but my porch isn't built ON TOP of my door. It's in front of it...and yeah, I still need to walk through my door to get into my house. Walking around on the porch doesn't get me inside...
In most cases porches are built in the front of the home, but not always. That is why if you check on Answer com. they give three definitions for porch. and one of them simply states, ''an open or enclosed gallery or room attached to the outside of a building.''

[Libertine]

Praise Libertine! My prediction just came true. GLORY!
GLORY! The Prophet FuzzyNutz is 100% accurate in his prophecies! Woooo!

[NaykidApe]

The only way christians can make Ezechiel 44 mean what they say it means is to isolate it from the rest of Ezechiel and take it out of context.

If you read a little farther you'll see that in order for the prince in Ezechiel 44 to be Jesus, and in order for his passing through the east gate to be the signal for the start of the "Tribulations" spoken of in the new testement it would mean that you'd also be saying;


1.That after the rapture Jesus will decide to hangout on earth as an orthodox jew again for awhile (nothing about this anywhere in the new testement)

2. He'll reinstate blood sacrifice (also nothing in the NT. about this not to mention the fact that doing so would pretty much negate the whole purpose of the crucifixtion).

Ezekiel 46


1 " 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: The gate of the inner court facing east is to be shut on the six working days, but on the Sabbath day and on the day of the New Moon it is to be opened. 2 The prince is to enter from the outside through the portico of the gateway and stand by the gatepost. The priests are to sacrifice his burnt offering and his fellowship offerings. [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezechiel%2046&version=31#fen-NIV-21658a)] He is to worship at the threshold of the gateway and then go out, but the gate will not be shut until evening. 3 On the Sabbaths and New Moons the people of the land are to worship in the presence of the LORD at the entrance to that gateway. 4 The burnt offering the prince brings to the LORD on the Sabbath day is to be six male lambs and a ram, all without defect. 5 The grain offering given with the ram is to be an ephah, and the grain offering with the lambs is to be as much as he pleases, along with a hin [c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezechiel%2046&version=31#fen-NIV-21661c)] of oil for each ephah. 6 [b]On the day of the New Moon he is to offer a young bull, six lambs and a ram, all without defect. 7 He is to provide as a grain offering one ephah with the bull, one ephah with the ram, and with the lambs as much as he wants to give, along with a hin of oil with each ephah. 8 When the prince enters, he is to go in through the portico of the gateway, and he is to come out the same way. 9 " 'When the people of the land come before the LORD at the appointed feasts, whoever enters by the north gate to worship is to go out the south gate; and whoever enters by the south gate is to go out the north gate. No one is to return through the gate by which he entered, but each is to go out the opposite gate. 10 The prince is to be among them, going in when they go in and going out when they go out.

Like I said this is only a bit farther on in the story and it's obvious that the prince in Ezechiel 46 is mean't to be the same person mentioned in Ezechiel 44.

If you read the entire story of Ezechiels vision you'll see it was never mean't to be a prophecy of coming events in the first place but was merely a story of God dictating instructions for the rebuilding of the temple destroyed by the Chaldeans.

[campbell34]

The only way christians can make Ezechiel 44 mean what they say it means is to isolate it from the rest of Ezechiel and take it out of context.

If you read a little farther you'll see that in order for the prince in Ezechiel 44 to be Jesus, and in order for his passing through the east gate to be the signal for the start of the "Tribulations" spoken of in the new testement it would mean that you'd also be saying;


1.That after the rapture Jesus will decide to hangout on earth as an orthodox jew again for awhile (nothing about this anywhere in the new testement)

2. He'll reinstate blood sacrifice (also nothing in the NT. about this not to mention the fact that doing so would pretty much negate the whole purpose of the crucifixtion).

Ezekiel 46


1 " 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: The gate of the inner court facing east is to be shut on the six working days, but on the Sabbath day and on the day of the New Moon it is to be opened. 2 The prince is to enter from the outside through the portico of the gateway and stand by the gatepost. The priests are to sacrifice his burnt offering and his fellowship offerings. [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezechiel%2046&version=31#fen-NIV-21658a)] He is to worship at the threshold of the gateway and then go out, but the gate will not be shut until evening. 3 On the Sabbaths and New Moons the people of the land are to worship in the presence of the LORD at the entrance to that gateway. 4 The burnt offering the prince brings to the LORD on the Sabbath day is to be six male lambs and a ram, all without defect. 5 The grain offering given with the ram is to be an ephah, and the grain offering with the lambs is to be as much as he pleases, along with a hin [c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezechiel%2046&version=31#fen-NIV-21661c)] of oil for each ephah. 6 [b]On the day of the New Moon he is to offer a young bull, six lambs and a ram, all without defect. 7 He is to provide as a grain offering one ephah with the bull, one ephah with the ram, and with the lambs as much as he wants to give, along with a hin of oil with each ephah. 8 When the prince enters, he is to go in through the portico of the gateway, and he is to come out the same way. 9 " 'When the people of the land come before the LORD at the appointed feasts, whoever enters by the north gate to worship is to go out the south gate; and whoever enters by the south gate is to go out the north gate. No one is to return through the gate by which he entered, but each is to go out the opposite gate. 10 The prince is to be among them, going in when they go in and going out when they go out.

Like I said this is only a bit farther on in the story and it's obvious that the prince in Ezechiel 46 is mean't to be the same person mentioned in Ezechiel 44.

If you read the entire story of Ezechiels vision you'll see it was never mean't to be a prophecy of coming events in the first place but was merely a story of God dictating instructions for the rebuilding of the temple destroyed by the Chaldeans.
I'm in a hurry on this but if you read ezekiel 44:4 it states I believe his feet will be on the mount of olives in that day, and if you read Luke 22:39 it states that when Christ returns his feet will touch the Mount of Olives when he returns, so there is a reference to that in the New Testament.

[JesusDiedForU]

I'm in a hurry on this but if you read ezekiel 44:4 it states I believe his feet will be on the mount of olives in that day, and if you read Luke 22:39 it states that when Christ returns his feet will touch the Mount of Olives when he returns, so there is a reference to that in the New Testament.
Here is a good verse about what dirrection the Messiah will be facing when He returns:

Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.

[JesusDiedForU]

See junior, you got THIS wrong too. The quote you posted has nothing to do with "which direction" jesus the liar will face, it merely points out that the mount of olives is east of jerusalem.

You got it ALL wrong junior. Can't blame you though, being as your campbells retarded kid.
This is true. The fact is is the passage states when the Lord returns He will return to the Mount of Olives, which just so happens to face east.

Please do not attack me personally but only my message...

[campbell34]

See junior, you got THIS wrong too. The quote you posted has nothing to do with "which direction" jesus the liar will face, it merely points out that the mount of olives is east of jerusalem.

You got it ALL wrong junior. Can't blame you though, being as your campbells retarded kid.
Well junior, Fuzzy you don't mind if I call you junior, you know I am 10 years older than you are, and it is obvious my kid has a far more respectable nature than I believe you ever will. I have to say I feel sorry for you. You really must of never learned how to speak to people without calling them names. I don't know what your life was like at home, but it appears you never learned how to speak to anyone without trying to insult them. Yet, if you don't have anything of substance to say, perhaps that's the only thing you can say.

[natural23]

.

[spook13]

Well junior, Fuzzy you don't mind if I call you junior, you know I am 10 years older than you are, and it is obvious my kid has a far more respectable nature than I believe you ever will. I have to say I feel sorry for you. You really must of never learned how to speak to people without calling them names. I don't know what your life was like at home, but it appears you never learned how to speak to anyone without trying to insult them. Yet, if you don't have anything of substance to say, perhaps that's the only thing you can say.Fuznutz, philosopically, I'm dead center of you two...certainly don't go along with Campbell's and JDFU's extreme Christianity but neither am I an atheist nor believe that Jesus was imaginary, the Bible is hogwash, etc.

I've got to give 100 unbiased points to Campbell and JDFU on this aspect of the ongoing discussion...they've been gentlemen throughout, used very little if any bad language, if they "insult" someone it's not a direct attack on character, maybe more of an "insult to the intelligence" and that's a subjective thing.

[JesusDiedForU]

I didn't know we were gaining points. Damn, I should have behaved better. :p

To fully understand my contempt for these two blithering idiots, you have to see our history of posts. There is one thing in this WHOLE world that I cannot and will not tolerate and that is STUPIDITY. Campbell and jdFU have proven time and time again just how stupid they really are. Combine THIS with thier way of manipulating what they see as "gods word" is dangerous. To YOU. To ME. To ALL people seeking truth.
Then please prove us wrong in manner that does not attack the person with vulgar names but rather the message we are presenting... That is all we ask

[JesusDiedForU]

To the likes of YOU and your old man, who I have NOTHING BUT CONTEMPT for, I will post as I like. Your ridiculous. You are here solely for MY amusement. Nothing more.

As far as proving you wrong; junior you do a fine job of that yourself. You wear your hypocrisy on your sleeve.
God said well over 2000 years ago in Ezekiel that when this gate found in Jerusalem facing east is sealed that it will remain sealed until the messiah returns and walks through it. It was sealed in 1517 and it still remains sealed today after almost 500 years and after several attempts to falsify the prophecy.

Interestingly enough, in Ezekiel it states that the messiah would not walk though the original gate but a porch of the gate which was an addition to the orginal. How could Ezekiel even know about such an addition hundreds of years before it was built. On top that, how would he have know that it would be sealed and when the gate was sealed, it would remained closed until the messiah reveals himself and is exalted. Furthermore, the fulfillment was not brought about by those who believed the prophecy but those who did not believe the Bible.


PLEASE NOTE: FUZZY will not refute this post I have posted this post so many times to him and each time he refuses to reply with anything of substance except one-liners and vulgar jokes... LET US ALL BEAR RECORD OF FUZZY'S WEAKNESS

[campbell34]

The only way christians can make Ezechiel 44 mean what they say it means is to isolate it from the rest of Ezechiel and take it out of context.

If you read a little farther you'll see that in order for the prince in Ezechiel 44 to be Jesus, and in order for his passing through the east gate to be the signal for the start of the "Tribulations" spoken of in the new testement it would mean that you'd also be saying;


1.That after the rapture Jesus will decide to hangout on earth as an orthodox jew again for awhile (nothing about this anywhere in the new testement)

2. He'll reinstate blood sacrifice (also nothing in the NT. about this not to mention the fact that doing so would pretty much negate the whole purpose of the crucifixtion).

Ezekiel 46


1 " 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: The gate of the inner court facing east is to be shut on the six working days, but on the Sabbath day and on the day of the New Moon it is to be opened. 2 The prince is to enter from the outside through the portico of the gateway and stand by the gatepost. The priests are to sacrifice his burnt offering and his fellowship offerings. [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezechiel%2046&version=31#fen-NIV-21658a)] He is to worship at the threshold of the gateway and then go out, but the gate will not be shut until evening. 3 On the Sabbaths and New Moons the people of the land are to worship in the presence of the LORD at the entrance to that gateway. 4 The burnt offering the prince brings to the LORD on the Sabbath day is to be six male lambs and a ram, all without defect. 5 The grain offering given with the ram is to be an ephah, and the grain offering with the lambs is to be as much as he pleases, along with a hin [c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezechiel%2046&version=31#fen-NIV-21661c)] of oil for each ephah. 6 [b]On the day of the New Moon he is to offer a young bull, six lambs and a ram, all without defect. 7 He is to provide as a grain offering one ephah with the bull, one ephah with the ram, and with the lambs as much as he wants to give, along with a hin of oil with each ephah. 8 When the prince enters, he is to go in through the portico of the gateway, and he is to come out the same way. 9 " 'When the people of the land come before the LORD at the appointed feasts, whoever enters by the north gate to worship is to go out the south gate; and whoever enters by the south gate is to go out the north gate. No one is to return through the gate by which he entered, but each is to go out the opposite gate. 10 The prince is to be among them, going in when they go in and going out when they go out.

Like I said this is only a bit farther on in the story and it's obvious that the prince in Ezechiel 46 is mean't to be the same person mentioned in Ezechiel 44.

If you read the entire story of Ezechiels vision you'll see it was never mean't to be a prophecy of coming events in the first place but was merely a story of God dictating instructions for the rebuilding of the temple destroyed by the Chaldeans.
First of all I need to point out that what Ezekiel was discribing here was a vision. Second, this is a prophecy which is believed not only by Christians, but Jews as well. Third, the Old Gate did not have a Porch which Ezekiel 44:3 speaks of. Forth, when prophecy is spoken of in scripture, it is often part of the text, but does not fit the text. And if you consider what is being stated in verse 2, the reason the Gate is being shut, is because the Lord God of Israel has entered in by it. Now, when did the Lord God of Israel enter that Gate?
Now the only person I know who entered the East Gate, who one billion people believe to be the God of Israel, is Jesus Christ.
In the Old Testament in Zechariah 14:1,2 it states that in the day when the nations attack Jerusalem, God shall defend Jerusalem. And in Zechariah 14:4 it states His feet shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives.
If you go to the New Testament in Luke 24:50,51 you discover that just before Christ was carried up into heaven, he led his followers to Bethany and then assended up. The ancient village of Bethania is located on the southeastern slop of the Mount of Olives. And as his followers were looking up and worshipping Christ. We find two angles begin to speak to them and say, ''Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. The day will come when the nations of the world will march on Israel. On that day it will be Jesus Christ who will be standing on the Mount of Olives. And in Zechariah 12 starting at verse 9 it states. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and morn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

[JesusDiedForU]

It seems that all you do here is reach out to others to validate yourself. Perhaps what YOU percieve as a weakness is actually His way of ignoring YOU. I read your posts about the east gate and they are really nothing but lore. Is THAT all you have? It seems that YOU are the weak one. Not Him.
Fuzzylives, are you the son of Fuzzynut ; )

PLEASE, I would like to hear YOUR educated respose to the east gate ; )

[JesusDiedForU]

Do I believe the east gate exists? Of course. Do I believe this as proof to the existance of god. No because I don't believe in god.

And NO, I am NOT the son of ImFuzzyNutz. However, I WOULD be honored to have a father of such high intelligence and standards. Glory!
Next questions, Are you the member formaly none as ImFuzzyNut

[Varuna]

The true Author of the Bible is God. He has given man a choice. And He has shown us that His words are true. You know how when you subscribe to a magazine, and you get your first copy in the mail, it is still full of those cards that try to get you to subscribe to the magazine? Well, that is exactly what is happening these days with most religious discussion. It seems to be a lot of advertizing and very little product.

I have always taken it on faith that there may be some actual meaning to all of this, that Christianity (and Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddism and all human relationships with the divine) means something. I believe I have put out considerable effort trying to learn and realize this meaning and, when asked, I have gladly shared with others whatever meaning I am able to share. This is the way the religion is actually practiced.

Now, I would be more than happy to take part in this conversation with you. But if you are not going to bother to learn and apply the actual meaning of the tradition, if all you are going to do is argue about stones and stories, or worse yet, if you are going to hinder others from finding the meaning, then there really is no conversation.

I am sure you mean well, but when you forego the meaning for the symbols, when you ignore the spirit of the law for the letter of the law, then you risk (inadvertantly, I hope) playing the part of the Pharisees.

Do you ever wonder what they missed?

Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Yes, and so are you and so am I and so is everyone, whether they know it or not. In light of this idea, maybe a little kindness and respect is called for, you may be surprised what it brings to your relationship with the divine.

The Bible states that all who give their life to Him will live for ever. I believe the phrase is Eternal Life. I hope you know what this means.

Everyone needs to ask Christ into their life, and to ask Him to forgive them of their sins. Those who give their life to Jesus, will live with Him forever. The God of the Bible has stated, ''that no eye has seen, no ear has heard, the things prepared for those who love God.'' When you give your life to Christ, you step from darkness to light. God will seal you for eternity. Jesus said, ''those who are not ashamed of Me, I will not be ashamed of them when you stand before My Father.'' The prophecies of the Bible will not fail. And the coming of Christ is certain. Some will die before that day, but when you ask Christ into your heart. His Spirit will enter your body, and He will seal you in His love, for all time. If he were to stand there facing you, would you treat him with kindness and respect, would you allow your relationship to be one of love, truth, consciousness, creativity, wisdom, peace, mercy, compassion, mystery, harmony, and so on, or would you fight about mantras and symbols, and signs and wonders, and Dogma and Dharma?

I put some effort into these posts. Please respond, I would appreciate it.

Peace and Love

[campbell34]

You know how when you subscribe to a magazine, and you get your first copy in the mail, it is still full of those cards that try to get you to subscribe to the magazine? Well, that is exactly what is happening these days with most religious discussion. It seems to be a lot of advertizing and very little product.

I have always taken it on faith that there may be some actual meaning to all of this, that Christianity (and Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddism and all human relationships with the divine) means something. I believe I have put out considerable effort trying to learn and realize this meaning and, when asked, I have gladly shared with others whatever meaning I am able to share. This is the way the religion is actually practiced.

Now, I would be more than happy to take part in this conversation with you. But if you are not going to bother to learn and apply the actual meaning of the tradition, if all you are going to do is argue about stones and stories, or worse yet, if you are going to hinder others from finding the meaning, then there really is no conversation.

I am sure you mean well, but when you forego the meaning for the symbols, when you ignore the spirit of the law for the letter of the law, then you risk (inadvertantly, I hope) playing the part of the Pharisees.

Do you ever wonder what they missed?

Yes, and so are you and so am I and so is everyone, whether they know it or not. In light of this idea, maybe a little kindness and respect is called for, you may be surprised what it brings to your relationship with the divine.

I believe the phrase is Eternal Life. I hope you know what this means.

If he were to stand there facing you, would you treat him with kindness and respect, would you allow your relationship to be one of love, truth, consciousness, creativity, wisdom, peace, mercy, compassion, mystery, harmony, and so on, or would you fight about mantras and symbols, and signs and wonders, and Dogma and Dharma?

I put some effort into these posts. Please respond, I would appreciate it.

Peace and Love
Yes, Jesus Christ is the Son of God, but He is also one of the three members of the God Head. And since God exist as three persons, this makes Jesus God. And we have the ability to become the Sons of God, are you one of God's sons? And I'm not into Dogma, only Biblical truth. And I would not have to fight with Jesus, because I surrendered my will to Him long ago.

[Kharakov]

Yes, Jesus Christ is the Son of God,I am too. Aren't you?
And since God exist as three persons, this makes Jesus God. Umm, no. Jesus is a soul that feels God's will, as we all are. Of course, the actions that we see carried out are carried out by God, so our actions are those of God. This doesn't make us God, it just means we are moved by God, even someone who is confused and thinnks that they move themselves: God moves for us, these words are God's gift to us (me, you, everyone who sees them).

When you move I move... I like it like that... uhuh..

[campbell34]

I am too. Aren't you?
Umm, no. Jesus is a soul that feels God's will, as we all are. Of course, the actions that we see carried out are carried out by God, so our actions are those of God. This doesn't make us God, it just means we are moved by God, even someone who is confused and thinnks that they move themselves: God moves for us, these words are God's gift to us (me, you, everyone who sees them).

When you move I move... I like it like that... uhuh..
Jesus Christ created the earth we live on. Jesus Christ is God.

[JesusDiedForU]

you do realize a nightmare is still just a bad DREAM?
A dream that turned to reality I guess. The gate still stands and so does my faith...

[JesusDiedForU]

Prove it.
How about this for starters, tells US why the porch of the Eastern Gate is still sealed... We've STILL been waiting...

[JesusDiedForU]

How about because no one cares enough to open it. You call THAT proof? THAT'S laughable!
How did Ezekiel know that it would not be the original gate that would be sealed but the PORCH of the gate hundreds of years before the porch was built?

[Kharakov]

Jesus Christ created the earth we live on. Jesus Christ is God.
You don't know God. Jesus Christ is a soul.

[JesusDiedForU]

You don't know God. Jesus Christ is a soul.
Jesus Christ is part of the trinity of God who was destined to be sacrificed for the world's sins

[Kharakov]

Jesus Christ is part of the trinity of God who was destined to be sacrificed for the world's sins Some people repeat words from a story, some people know God.

[synaptic aether]

i could blast the fucker open.

get me there and give me enough explosives to take down some dumb stone wall.

[JesusDiedForU]

i could blast the fucker open.

get me there and give me enough explosives to take down some dumb stone wall.
You do that and you prove Christianity and the Bible wrong....

[Erise]

He'd be the first to blast down a wall that even the romans/muslims/egyptians/crusaders couldn't

[JesusDiedForU]

He'd be the first to blast down a wall that even the romans/muslims/egyptians/crusaders couldn't
Perhaps I should have asked, "You and what army?" ; )

[Sera Michele]

Not to mention it isn't even the oiginal gate, it was rebuilt over the ruins after the romans destroyed it in 70AD. The gate has already been destroyed once since the prophecy.

Here is campbells explanation for why the prophecy is still valid:


-Ezekiel 44:2 clearly states that the God of Israel has entered in by it, and since Jesus died before the gate was built, naturally you would think this would rule out the prophecy altogether. So I decided to look into this a little more. As I investigated further, I discovered the most amazing thing. In April of 1969 an excavation that dug directly beneath the present day East Gate, unearth the fully intact Shushan Gate. The Shushan Gate now acts as the foundation of the present and visible Eastern Gate. If the excavation
had continued, the old gate would be usable again. Yet as I began to read Ezekiel 44:3, pins and needles began to go up my spine. Because according to the prophecy, it states when the Prince comes to the gate, he will enter by the way of the porch of the gate. According to Google Web Definitions, a porch is a structure attached to the exterior of a building often forming a covered entrance. The visible Eastern Gate today is the attached porch. Christ must of passed through the old Eastern Gate or the Shushan gate many times because it was one of the main gates that leads
to the temple. When he returns again he will have to pass through the porch of that gate. Which would be the added on section. Now for this prophecy to be accurate and true, it requires two Eastern Gates to exist at the same time. It also requires both gates to be physically connected to each other. The porch of the gate would also have to be sealed, and any attempts to circumvent the prophecy by crashing through the gate would always meet with failure. The prince to come would of already had to of passed through the old Shushan Gate to fulfill the prophecy. In order
for him to complete the prophecy he will have to pass through the visible existing East Gate, or as Ezekiel puts it, the porch of the gate. The reason Ezekiel in verse 1 was so vague about the gate was because the gate that was to be sealed shut would not exist for another 1000 years. The East Gate is the porch of the old gate, and the gate that Ezekiel saw in his vision, is the same gate we see today, and the reason both attempts by the Arabs to smash through the ancient stone failed, is because the Gate is reserved for the prince to come.
But this explanation is taking a lot of liberty with interpretation. First, you have to re-define what a porch is. You will find no building built over ruins where they call that new building a porch. But for your prophecy to work we have to change our definition of porches to include buildings errected over old, ruined buildings.

[Sera Michele]

They've used that same definition to claim that this building is a porch. It seems they take as much liberty with interpretation of the definition as they to the prophecy itself.

[Kharakov]

You do that and you prove Christianity and the Bible wrong....
Know they do not. They prove that God want's to end this stupid dispute.

titus 3:9-10
"9But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. 10Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him."

1 timothy 1:4-7
"Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.


5Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

6From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; 7Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. "

You and Campbell need to follow the teachings of the bible instead of stirring up foolish controversy about this ancient prophecy. When it happens, it will be proof enough. Until that time spread real wisdom about God that a man can know now.

[NaykidApe]

*I posted this once before but I didn't press the point because for awhile it looked like this thread was going to finally die and I figured I'd just let it.

Since it hasn't...
(and as far as I'm concerned this should end the debate)


The only way christians can make Ezechiel 44 mean what they say it means is to isolate it from the rest of Ezechiel and take it out of context.

If you read a little farther you'll see that in order for the prince in Ezechiel 44 to be Jesus, and in order for his passing through the east gate to be the signal for the start of the "Tribulations" spoken of in the new testement it would mean that you'd also be saying;


1.That after the rapture Jesus will decide to become an orthodox jew and hangout on earth with other orthodox jews for awhile.

2. He'll reinstate blood sacrifice (nothing in the NT. about this not to mention the fact that doing so would pretty much negate the whole purpose of the crucifixtion).

Ezekiel 46


1 " 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: The gate of the inner court facing east is to be shut on the six working days, but on the Sabbath day and on the day of the New Moon it is to be opened. 2 The prince is to enter from the outside through the portico of the gateway and stand by the gatepost. The priests are to sacrifice his burnt offering and his fellowship offerings. [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezechiel%2046&version=31#fen-NIV-21658a)] He is to worship at the threshold of the gateway and then go out, but the gate will not be shut until evening. 3 On the Sabbaths and New Moons the people of the land are to worship in the presence of the LORD at the entrance to that gateway. 4 The burnt offering the prince brings to the LORD on the Sabbath day is to be six male lambs and a ram, all without defect. 5 The grain offering given with the ram is to be an ephah, and the grain offering with the lambs is to be as much as he pleases, along with a hin [c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezechiel%2046&version=31#fen-NIV-21661c)] of oil for each ephah. 6 [b]On the day of the New Moon he is to offer a young bull, six lambs and a ram, all without defect. 7 He is to provide as a grain offering one ephah with the bull, one ephah with the ram, and with the lambs as much as he wants to give, along with a hin of oil with each ephah. 8 When the prince enters, he is to go in through the portico of the gateway, and he is to come out the same way. 9 " 'When the people of the land come before the LORD at the appointed feasts, whoever enters by the north gate to worship is to go out the south gate; and whoever enters by the south gate is to go out the north gate. No one is to return through the gate by which he entered, but each is to go out the opposite gate. 10 The prince is to be among them, going in when they go in and going out when they go out.

Like I said this is only a bit farther on in the story and it's obvious that the prince in Ezechiel 46 is mean't to be the same person mentioned in Ezechiel 44.

If you read the entire story of Ezechiels vision you'll see it was never mean't to be a prophecy of coming events in the first place but was merely a story of God dictating instructions for the rebuilding of the temple destroyed by the Chaldeans.
__________________


Also; The passage says "The prince will enter by the portico of the gate..."
thing is, a portico can be used to refer to any passage leading to a gate in which case the original gate must have had a portico, that is unless it was hanging in midair unattached to anything.

Since the walls on either side of the gate must have been several feet thick the perimeter or the wall on either side of the gate (front or back) could be considerred a portico.

Also; christians are claiming the newer structure on top of the old gate is the potico spoken of but at the same time they're trying to say it's also the gate that was propheciesed to be sealed.
In other words their saying it's it's own portico and that the gate beneath it is a non-issue.

[NaykidApe]

First of all I need to point out that what Ezekiel was discribing here was a vision.
Yes I know that, that's the crux of my point; Ezk. 44 through 46 is part of the same vision.


Second, this is a prophecy which is believed not only by Christians, but Jews as well.
Yes but in that the jews are expecting the messiah to be a human king and an orthodox jew their interpretation of the vision doesn't contradict itself.



Third, the Old Gate did not have a Porch which Ezekiel 44:3 speaks of.
See my previous post

Forth, when prophecy is spoken of in scripture, it is often part of the text, but does not fit the text.
Not the case here; ezechiel 44 fits precisely with the verses before and after it, in that it's all part of the same vision.
This isn't a case of a prophetical passage sandwiched between unrelated narraitive, what you're doing is identifying one part of a vision as prophetical and ignoring the rest of it.

And if you consider what is being stated in verse 2, the reason the Gate is being shut, is because the Lord God of Israel has entered in by it. Now, when did the Lord God of Israel enter that Gate?
See Ezechiel 43



Now the only person I know who entered the East Gate, who one billion people believe to be the God of Israel, is Jesus Christ.
But only by christians, which makes this circular reasoning. The passage says "GOD", not "The only man considerred to be God".


In the Old Testament in Zechariah 14:1,2 it states that in the day when the nations attack Jerusalem, God shall defend Jerusalem. And in Zechariah 14:4 it states His feet shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives.
If you go to the New Testament in Luke 24:50,51 you discover that just before Christ was carried up into heaven, he led his followers to Bethany and then assended up. The ancient village of Bethania is located on the southeastern slop of the Mount of Olives. And as his followers were looking up and worshipping Christ. We find two angles begin to speak to them and say, ''Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. The day will come when the nations of the world will march on Israel. On that day it will be Jesus Christ who will be standing on the Mount of Olives. And in Zechariah 12 starting at verse 9 it states. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and morn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Sorry, but to me all of the above just looks like an attempt to change the subject.

[JesusDiedForU]

Know they do not. They prove that God want's to end this stupid dispute.

titus 3:9-10
"9But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. 10Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him."

1 timothy 1:4-7
"Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.


5Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

6From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; 7Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. "

You and Campbell need to follow the teachings of the bible instead of stirring up foolish controversy about this ancient prophecy. When it happens, it will be proof enough. Until that time spread real wisdom about God that a man can know now.
Please do not hate on us. You probably no nothing about the gate.

I am that so confident in God's word that I will boast about the gate. God promises that this gate will remain sealed until the messiah returns and to this day it still is. Let him who boast boast in the Lord

[JesusDiedForU]

Per the definition I do not see how you can say this is the porch as it is not leading to an entrance, it is the entrance. Per the etymology I would say that the prophecy would have to say there would be a new gate built and sealed.
.
Then the man brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, the one facing east, and it was shut. 2 The LORD said to me, "This gate is to remain shut. It must not be opened; no one may enter through it. It is to remain shut because the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered through it. 3 The prince himself is the only one who may sit inside the gateway to eat in the presence of the LORD. He is to enter by way of the portico of the gateway and go out the same way."

portico

n : a porch or entrance to a building consisting of a covered and often columned area


Why would Ezekiel even mention a "Portico" then. Why did he not just say gate. "He is to enter through the gate."

When Ezekiel wrote this, there was no "portico of the gateway."

[Sera Michele]

Maybe because Ezekiel was wrong?

[JesusDiedForU]

Maybe because Ezekiel was wrong?
A wrong that became right... like all the other fulfilled prophecies? Mere coincidences...

[Kharakov]

I am that so confident in God's word that I will boast about the gate. God promises that this gate will remain sealed until the messiah returns and to this day it still is. Let him who boast boast in the Lord There is no Messiah (Son of Man) (except as an idea). All is created by the Lord.

In addition, there are other scriptures that God has given through other incarnations of God (such as Krishna). When God came as Krishna, God said something very important about all scriptures: that those who know God no longer rely upon scripture for guidance, but only God.

You should read the Bhagavad Gita, which is the scripture that God revealed God's self to Hindus in ancient times (before the coming of Christ).

http://hinduwebsite.com/gitaindex.htm

[spook13]

You should read the Bhagavad Gita, which is the scripture that God revealed God's self to Hindus in ancient times (before the coming of Christ).

Kharakov:

Dude, you're wasting your time. All Campbell and JDFU will tell you is that Satan wrote it.

[Kharakov]

Maybe not. God can lead them into greater knowledge and acceptance of God's will, which includes the fact that God was caring for God's creation far before the incarnation of Christ.

[campbell34]

There is no Messiah (Son of Man) (except as an idea). All is created by the Lord.

In addition, there are other scriptures that God has given through other incarnations of God (such as Krishna). When God came as Krishna, God said something very important about all scriptures: that those who know God no longer rely upon scripture for guidance, but only God.

You should read the Bhagavad Gita, which is the scripture that God revealed God's self to Hindus in ancient times (before the coming of Christ).

http://hinduwebsite.com/gitaindex.htm
SECOND TIMOTHY 4:3,4

(3.) ''FOR THE TIME WILL COME WHEN THEY WILL NOT ENDURE SOUND DOCTRINE; BUT WANTING TO HAVE THEIR EARS TICKLED, THEY WILL ACCUMULATE FOR THEMSELVES TEACHERS IN ACCORDANCE TO THEIR OWN DESIRES, (4.) AND WILL TURN AWAY THEIR EARS FROM THE TRUTH AND WILL TURN ASIDE TO MYTHS."

Kharakov, you are doing what the scriptures have stated men would do. Turn to other doctrines outside of the Bible. I think I will just hold on to my King James. I was never much of a myth guy anyway.

[Kharakov]

Please do not hate on us. It is not hate when one corrects another, it is love.
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline."
You probably no nothing about the gate. You "know" what you have read, whether or not it is true is up to God. No man knows these things, only God, but you attempt to teach others your folly.
You hypocrite, you pursue signs of God in ancient fables instead of seeing God's action in everything. By your very actions, you reject the one you claim to love.

The reason you are to avoid foolish disputes is to bask in oneness with God, which you reject in favor of teaching things which you know nothing about. This is the reason for the rebuke against your and campbell's actions.

[Kharakov]

SECOND TIMOTHY 4:3,4

(3.) ''FOR THE TIME WILL COME WHEN THEY WILL NOT ENDURE SOUND DOCTRINE; BUT WANTING TO HAVE THEIR EARS TICKLED, THEY WILL ACCUMULATE FOR THEMSELVES TEACHERS IN ACCORDANCE TO THEIR OWN DESIRES, (4.) AND WILL TURN AWAY THEIR EARS FROM THE TRUTH AND WILL TURN ASIDE TO MYTHS."

Kharakov, you are doing what the scriptures have stated men would do. Turn to other doctrines outside of the Bible. I think I will just hold on to my King James. I was never much of a myth guy anyway. Fool, the Lord has created all things. The false doctrine which you spread is against the words written in the book you claim to follow.

God cared for man long before the bible existed, and will care for the souls of man long after the bible is nothing but an ancient book to introduce the souls of children to God.

When you stop being a fool, you will realise God has created all scripture, not just the single scripture that you cling to without understanding. The Bhagavad Gita supplements the bible, and the other way around. The teachings of both Krishna and Christ teach about the same being, although, within both scriptures there are stumbling blocks for those who do not accept God. This is because you are to rely upon God, not a single scripture.

Isaiah 45:5-7
" I am the LORD, and there is no other;
apart from me there is no God.
I will strengthen you,
though you have not acknowledged me,


6 so that from the rising of the sun
to the place of its setting
men may know there is none besides me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other. 7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things. "

Even within the Koran, the truth is revealed. This is called "The Cleaving" or The Day of Judgement, when it is revealed to a soul that all is caused by (created by) God.

Every scripture supports knowledge of God, to reject one is to reject all.

[campbell34]

It is not hate when one corrects another, it is love.
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline."
You "know" what you have read, whether or not it is true is up to God. No man knows these things, only God, but you attempt to teach others your folly.
You hypocrite, you pursue signs of God in ancient fables instead of seeing God's action in everything. By your very actions, you reject the one you claim to love.

The reason you are to avoid foolish disputes is to bask in oneness with God, which you reject in favor of teaching things which you know nothing about. This is the reason for the rebuke against your and campbell's actions.
Well if the Bible is a fable then God is a liar for He authored it. Yet what you call a fable, the God of the Bible calls truth. The things we speak of came from God's Word, the same Word God authored. Gods Words of truth are not folly, but your non acceptence of His truth, is. The Bible is not an ancient Fable, it is ancient truth which you reject. You don't want to hear the prophecies, because you reject the truth. Jesus said heaven and earth may pass away, but My words shall never pass away. Sorry Kharakov, no matter how much you would like to see Christ Words gone, they will be with us, forever. And His words are truth, not fables.

[campbell34]

Fool, the Lord has created all things. The false doctrine which you spread is against the words written in the book you claim to follow.

God cared for man long before the bible existed, and will care for the souls of man long after the bible is nothing but an ancient book to introduce the souls of children to God.

When you stop being a fool, you will realise God has created all scripture, not just the single scripture that you cling to without understanding. The Bhagavad Gita supplements the bible, and the other way around. The teachings of both Krishna and Christ teach about the same being, although, within both scriptures there are stumbling blocks for those who do not accept God. This is because you are to rely upon God, not a single scripture.

Isaiah 45:5-7
" I am the LORD, and there is no other;
apart from me there is no God.
I will strengthen you,
though you have not acknowledged me,


6 so that from the rising of the sun
to the place of its setting
men may know there is none besides me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other. 7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things. "

Even within the Koran, the truth is revealed. This is called "The Cleaving" or The Day of Judgement, when it is revealed to a soul that all is caused by (created by) God.

Every scripture supports knowledge of God, to reject one is to reject all.
There is no other God but one. Yet the one God exist as three persons = One God.
That is why in the Old Testament God states, let US make man in OUR image. And that is why Jesus said, ''if you have seen Me you have seen the Father. And that is why in the New Testament it states that there are three that bare record in heaven, the Father, the Word(Jesus), and the Holy Ghost, and these three are ONE. An that is why the Jews sought to Kill Christ because He said before Abraham was, I AM. And that is why in the Old Testament The Father claimed to of made the earth alone and by Himself, and the New Testament states that Jesus Christ made the Earth and all things. And that is why in the New Testament it states that Jesus was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not.
God authored the Bible, and God is not the author of confusion. He did not create many religious books that counterdict each other. And the Bible states that false doctrins will be found in books outside of the Bible. And those are the books you imbrace. You arguement about me spreading false doctrine is false, because it is the doctrine of Jesus Christ that Authored those Words.
And your arguement is not with me, but with the God of Israel who's Words you call fables.

[spook13]

Maybe not. God can lead them into greater knowledge and acceptance of God's will, which includes the fact that God was caring for God's creation far before the incarnation of Christ.Well said.

It's difficult for some people to accept the fact that there were very profound scriptures in existence before the time of Christ. Not wanting to honestly evaluate this reality, or break the circle of their reasoning, they give credit to the Devil for authorship of these writings.

You might call the Bhagavad-gita Hinduism's East Gate. It's hard to explain away.

[JesusDiedForU]

NOUN:
pl. por·ti·coes or por·ti·cos
A porch or walkway with a roof supported by columns, often leading to the entrance of a building.

ETYMOLOGY:
Italian, from Latin porticus, from porta, gate; see per- 2 in Indo-European roots

A portico leads to the entrance, it is not the entrance itself
There are different definitions ... I suggest you look portico up at www.dictionary.com (http://www.dictionary.com)

[JesusDiedForU]

You hypocrite, you pursue signs of God in ancient fables instead of seeing God's action in everything.
You just called God's words fables... The prophecy I speak of is found in Ezekiel 44:1-3 I trust that His words will stay true. You however don't trust in God's words at all.

[JesusDiedForU]

Fuck junior do you blame him?
No I blame the God of this age that has blinded the non-believer...

[NaykidApe]

Nobody read my post huh?

[spook13]

Nobody read my post huh?Someone may have read it, but I've noticed that comments on well reasoned posts that question the prevailing views tend to be rare here.

[natural23]

NayKid,

I have not followed the Ezekiel arguements closely, but your clarification and responses are much needed and appreciated. I have, also, noted what Spook13 has pointed out; most, if not all, of the "well thought out" posts have, in terms of directly addressing the content, gone ignored; here, I am not trying to discount any particular arguement but I see that as we approach any issue, anything that we are trying to communicate to another, that connecting to where that other person is "coming from" by addressing their questions and or statements with an 'open mind' in reviewing our own view is essentail. I found posts #251 and #252 very clear and these posts have demonstrated, for me, how we have to be careful to "take a step back and look at the context in which we make interpretations for this is where the clear and true view will tend to emerge. Excellent read, Thank You.


Peace,

David


.

[JesusDiedForU]

You are correct there are MANY definitions and variations,The common and accepted definition of a porch is a covered, open structure adjacent to and attached to an entrance, usually open walled with collumns. I for one dont see how this could be in any way called a portico or porch as it is itself a gate and is not related to the original gate other than it is built over the original. It seems to me that for this to be considered a "porch" it would have to be attached to, and extended from the original gate.
The structure today is a portico that is an addition of the old gate.

[Kharakov]

Well if the Bible is a fable then God is a liar for He authored it. Yet what you call a fable, the God of the Bible calls truth. The things we speak of came from God's Word, the same Word God authored. Gods Words of truth are not folly, but your non acceptence of His truth, is. The Bible is not an ancient Fable, it is ancient truth which you reject.... Sorry Kharakov, no matter how much you would like to see Christ Words gone, they will be with us, forever. And His words are truth, not fables.You teach lies about the bible fool. In addition, in your confused and sinning state of mind, you have said lies about what I have said.

Jesus speaks in Parables. A parable is 'a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle'. Do you understand what ficticious means? Untrue!

In Titus and Timothy you are warned against preaching about things which you do not know. You are warned against foolish disputes about fables (Jewish fables in one particular passage). You ignore the bible while claiming to teach it's message!

The bible conveys the truth in fables and parables. You foolish attachment to the literal meaning of fables has blinded you to the truth.

"3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. "

The truth is God, who you have rejected. God creates many ficticious (untrue) stories for us to learn moral principles from. We learn not to rape small children by watching Law and Order SVU. We learn not to murder people by watching shows on TV which God has created to illustrate points.

Your lust is this: that the bible be literally true.

[Kharakov]

You just called God's words fables... The prophecy I speak of is found in Ezekiel 44:1-3 I trust that His words will stay true. You however don't trust in God's words at all.
I trust in God.

[FreakerSoup]

You just called God's words fables... The prophecy I speak of is found in Ezekiel 44:1-3 I trust that His words will stay true. You however don't trust in God's words at all.
Which words are god's? How do you know?

The bible was written by men. Whatever part god played in it, if any, it was written by men. Who were given free will, so they could write whatever they wanted. At best, the bible is god's ideas filtered through very primative human minds.

[JesusDiedForU]

I trust in God.
When you say you trust in God... do you mean His words also?

[JesusDiedForU]

Which words are god's? How do you know?

The bible was written by men. Whatever part god played in it, if any, it was written by men. Who were given free will, so they could write whatever they wanted. At best, the bible is god's ideas filtered through very primative human minds.
The Bible is flawless and everything in there is the truth.

[FreakerSoup]

The Bible is flawless and everything in there is the truth.
Oh, wow. That just convinced me. Praise Zod. This is where your blindness lies. The bible was written by men, not god. God had people kill, commit adultery, and many other things forbidden in the same book. It is flawless only to someone who wants so much to believe that this is so that he can ignore the most obvious example of a flaw.

Thank you for answering my question, though. That doeesn't seem to happen often.

[campbell34]

You are correct there are MANY definitions and variations,The common and accepted definition of a porch is a covered, open structure adjacent to and attached to an entrance, usually open walled with collumns. I for one dont see how this could be in any way called a portico or porch as it is itself a gate and is not related to the original gate other than it is built over the original. It seems to me that for this to be considered a "porch" it would have to be attached to, and extended from the original gate.
First I would point out that the Old Gate was more than just a Gate, it was also a building. Secondly, porches are also built on flat roofs. If you do a little research you will find this to be the case. And thirdly, the New Gate is related to the Old Gate because the Old Gate is the foundation for the New Gate. Both structures are fully intact and are physically connected together. The new Gate is the addition to the Old Gate. And that is what a porch is, it is an addition to an existing building. And it is attached to the Old Gate, and it is sealed as the prophecy said it would be.

[campbell34]

Oh, wow. That just convinced me. Praise Zod. This is where your blindness lies. The bible was written by men, not god. God had people kill, commit adultery, and many other things forbidden in the same book. It is flawless only to someone who wants so much to believe that this is so that he can ignore the most obvious example of a flaw.

Thank you for answering my question, though. That doeesn't seem to happen often.
I would say the one's who are blind are those who have to work at ignoring the prophecies of the Bible. I just believe in the obvious.

[Kharakov]

When you say you trust in God... do you mean His words also?
I mean exactly what I said, you pharisee.

"Then the Pharisees went and plotted how they might entangle Him in His talk."

[JesusDiedForU]

I mean exactly what I said, you pharisee.

"Then the Pharisees went and plotted how they might entangle Him in His talk."
You try to use the Bible against me yet you do not believe it fully yourself... doesn't make sense

[campbell34]

I mean exactly what I said, you pharisee.

"Then the Pharisees went and plotted how they might entangle Him in His talk."
If we can't believe in God's Holy Word the Bible. What can we trust in?
I just take God at His Word. And I never call Gods Word a fable as some do.

[campbell34]

You teach lies about the bible fool. In addition, in your confused and sinning state of mind, you have said lies about what I have said.

Jesus speaks in Parables. A parable is 'a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle'. Do you understand what ficticious means? Untrue!

In Titus and Timothy you are warned against preaching about things which you do not know. You are warned against foolish disputes about fables (Jewish fables in one particular passage). You ignore the bible while claiming to teach it's message!

The bible conveys the truth in fables and parables. You foolish attachment to the literal meaning of fables has blinded you to the truth.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. "

The truth is God, who you have rejected. God creates many ficticious (untrue) stories for us to learn moral principles from. We learn not to rape small children by watching Law and Order SVU. We learn not to murder people by watching shows on TV which God has created to illustrate points.

Your lust is this: that the bible be literally true.
God does not make up stories, He speaks only the truth. It was the Jews who made up stories, not Jesus. And you might take note, the Bible states that anyone who calls a man a fool is in danger of Hell fire. Mathew 5:22. Just a reminder.

[campbell34]

Well said.

It's difficult for some people to accept the fact that there were very profound scriptures in existence before the time of Christ. Not wanting to honestly evaluate this reality, or break the circle of their reasoning, they give credit to the Devil for authorship of these writings.

You might call the Bhagavad-gita Hinduism's East Gate. It's hard to explain away.
If these scriptures were so profound, where are their prophecies that would show them to be inspired? That's the problem with all of these other religions and their books. They are all fluff, with no evidence. The Bible is far different, and offers the proof of prophecy. You have made your statement, now show us how they are inspired, show us the proof.

[campbell34]

NayKid,

I have not followed the Ezekiel arguements closely, but your clarification and responses are much needed and appreciated. I have, also, noted what Spook13 has pointed out; most, if not all, of the "well thought out" posts have, in terms of directly addressing the content, gone ignored; here, I am not trying to discount any particular arguement but I see that as we approach any issue, anything that we are trying to communicate to another, that connecting to where that other person is "coming from" by addressing their questions and or statements with an 'open mind' in reviewing our own view is essentail. I found posts #251 and #252 very clear and these posts have demonstrated, for me, how we have to be careful to "take a step back and look at the context in which we make interpretations for this is where the clear and true view will tend to emerge. Excellent read, Thank You.


Peace,

David


.
David, if you know anything about the prophecies, they do not fit the text. They are anomalys. They often leave the reader scratching his head. The early Jewish Rabbies understood this, and that is why the early Jews had a handle on Scripture. Only in recent years have the more liberal Jewish theologians moved away from this understanding. Of the 300 Old Testament anomalys, only one man in history fulfilled them all. And He did this not by chance or luck, but by design. If you consider the prophecies in Ezekiel 36,37,38,and 39. You will discover the modern theologian has a harder time explaining these prophecies away.

[NaykidApe]

Someone may have read it, but I've noticed that comments on well reasoned posts that question the prevailing views tend to be rare here.

Thanks Spook. I haven't quite figured out the game most of the people in here are playing but it does seem reason is against the rules.


NayKid,

I have not followed the Ezekiel arguements closely, but your clarification and responses are much needed and appreciated. I have, also, noted what Spook13 has pointed out; most, if not all, of the "well thought out" posts have, in terms of directly addressing the content, gone ignored; here, I am not trying to discount any particular arguement but I see that as we approach any issue, anything that we are trying to communicate to another, that connecting to where that other person is "coming from" by addressing their questions and or statements with an 'open mind' in reviewing our own view is essentail. I found posts #251 and #252 very clear and these posts have demonstrated, for me, how we have to be careful to "take a step back and look at the context in which we make interpretations for this is where the clear and true view will tend to emerge. Excellent read, Thank You.


Peace,

David


.

Thanks David. I was telling a friend about this site recently. I told her it's not the best place to go if you want to learn about christianity but it's a great place to go to study how people minds work (or don't).

[campbell34]

Thanks Spook. I haven't quite figured out the game most of the people in here are playing but it does seem reason is against the rules.




Thanks David. I was telling a friend about this site recently. I told her it's not the best place to go if you want to learn about christianity but it's a great place to go to study how people minds work (or don't).
Well keep in mind, that the Bible states that the natural man will not understand the things of the Spirit. If you are void of a desire to know God, the Bible will make little sense to you. And you will spend you life trying to explain it away, rather then imbrace it. The prophecies are anomolies. The prophecies of Christ in the Old Testament number 300. Only Jesus Christ fulfilled those 300. And he did this not by chance. Also if you read the prophecies, sometimes it's hard to make any sense out of the text, because without understanding that the anomolies are prophecies, the text often makes no sense. Let me give you an example. Explain Ezekiel 38 to me. Can you tell me what time in history this event took place? Let's see how your mind works.

[Kharakov]

You try to use the Bible against me yet you do not believe it fully yourself... doesn't make sense When it is time to use the bible to rebuke you, I do. Your understanding of what is written in the bible is faulty. I know the bible is from God and has essential truth within it. I also know that those who do not know God (such as yourself) misinterprete the bible.

There are fables and parables within the bible. They are not meant to be taken literally. They are meant to be understood with the help of God.

"And He said, “To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that
‘ Seeing they may not see,
And hearing they may not understand.' "

[Kharakov]

God does not make up stories, He speaks only the truth. God creates all things. Do you not understand the meaning of verse 7 from Isaiah 45?

"I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace and create calamity;
I, the LORD, do all these things.’ "

The light is truth. Darkness is lies. God creates both. You reject God by rejecting the teaching of the bible and claiming it says something other than what it says.
It was the Jews who made up stories, not Jesus. Simply another lie from your corrupt mind. Within the bible, Jesus speaks in parables (short ficticious stories used to illustrate a moral principle).
And you might take note, the Bible states that anyone who calls a man a fool is in danger of Hell fire. Mathew 5:22. Just a reminder. Yeah. It's generally a bad idea to call someone a fool. It creates useless dischord. Of course, there are times when a fool must be called a fool.

[Kharakov]

They are all fluff, with no evidence. The Bible is far different, and offers the proof of prophecy. You have made your statement, now show us how they are inspired, show us the proof.
Matthew 12:38-40
"Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.”
39 But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

Do you understand that this sign has already been sent?

To desire a sign from God through ancient prophecy is to be adulterous to God. To not credit God with what occurs, to not see God's actions in all things that happen is to be adulterous to God.
If these scriptures were so profound, where are their prophecies that would show them to be inspired? That's the problem with all of these other religions and their books. To require a sign of God is to be adulterous to God. To accept that God flows through all things is to be faithful to God. This is were you stumble, your reliance upon a sign for God to show you that God flows through all things.

[FreakerSoup]

I would say the one's who are blind are those who have to work at ignoring the prophecies of the Bible. I just believe in the obvious.
Oh yes, this is a gem! When you believe the earth is 6000 years old, you obviously don't have the concept of obvious down.

[NaykidApe]

Well keep in mind, that the Bible states that the natural man will not understand the things of the Spirit.
It only says that in the New testament. Sorry but you can't use a text as proof of it's own validity without any corrobarrating evidence.

exp:Joe says he's not a liar therfore he must be telling the truth.

If you are void of a desire to know God, the Bible will make little sense to you.
If you have an agenda, you can make the bible (or anything else) mean anything you want it too.

And you will spend you life trying to explain it away, rather then imbrace it.
I notice you don't list studying it as an option.

The prophecies are anomolies. The prophecies of Christ in the Old Testament number 300. Only Jesus Christ fulfilled those 300. And he did this not by chance.
I see. so if I take "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times" and apply it to the world as it is now I can call it an "anomilie", declare Dickens a prophet, and start telling people A Tale of Two Cities is the infallible word of god?

Also if you read the prophecies, sometimes it's hard to make any sense out of the text, because without understanding that the anomolies are prophecies, the text often makes no sense. Let me give you an example. Explain Ezekiel 38 to me. Can you tell me what time in history this event took place? Let's see how your mind works.
Well lets see...it's talking about a concerted effort against Isreal by a multi-national force, "mountains falling down"..."a flooding downpour and hailstones, fire, and brimstone I shall rain down upon him and his bands"..
Answer--never.
I don't see how quoting a prophiecy that hasn't come true yet supports your point.
Also I'll say this again; it's not the old testament prophecies I have a problem with (therefore equating these descriptions with modern day weaponry doesn't support your point). I fully believe that there have been people in history who actually were hooked into some kind of transcendant knowledge, and that the old testament prophets may well be examples of this.
It's the christian interpretation of these prophecies I have a problem with.

I notice you're proceeding from the presumption that if someone doesn't accept your interpretation of the prophecies he must not believe in prophecy in general.

It's the same logic christians use when they say "If you're not a christian than obviously you're an atheist so how do you explain creation?"

Hows this; I think ferraris are the only true car, therfore if you don't own a ferrari you obviously don't believe in internal combustion in which case how do you explain all the cars on the road?

See how ridiculous this is?


I'm familiar with the practice by modern christians of selecting certain portions of a text and ignoring the rest in order to validate their interpretation of prophecy. You've stated that ancient Jewish scholars did the same thing. Can you show that this is true?

[campbell34]

Two questions and each can be answered with a yes/no.
So you are saying that in the picture I posted the whole structure is the "porch"?
And the original gate is the "foundation" for this porch?
The structure above ground is the porch, the structure below ground is the building and Gate, but also is the foundation for the Gate we see.

[campbell34]

When it is time to use the bible to rebuke you, I do. Your understanding of what is written in the bible is faulty. I know the bible is from God and has essential truth within it. I also know that those who do not know God (such as yourself) misinterprete the bible.

There are fables and parables within the bible. They are not meant to be taken literally. They are meant to be understood with the help of God.

"And He said, “To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that
‘ Seeing they may not see,
And hearing they may not understand.' "
Could you show us in the Bible where it states that Jesus Words are but fables?

[JesusDiedForU]

When it is time to use the bible to rebuke you, I do. Your understanding of what is written in the bible is faulty. I know the bible is from God and has essential truth within it. I also know that those who do not know God (such as yourself) misinterprete the bible.

There are fables and parables within the bible. They are not meant to be taken literally. They are meant to be understood with the help of God.

"And He said, “To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that
‘ Seeing they may not see,
And hearing they may not understand.' "
Parables are stories with meanings... When Jesus spoke in parables and He told one story to describe another.

Your statements are contrary to the Bible. You do not believe the Bible is 100% accurate just as its states. Specifically, you think that the Eatern Gate is just a myth tell that to God... as He still continues to hold the porch sealed just as he promised

[campbell34]

Matthew 12:38-40
"Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.”
39 But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

Do you understand that this sign has already been sent?

To desire a sign from God through ancient prophecy is to be adulterous to God. To not credit God with what occurs, to not see God's actions in all things that happen is to be adulterous to God.
To require a sign of God is to be adulterous to God. To accept that God flows through all things is to be faithful to God. This is were you stumble, your reliance upon a sign for God to show you that God flows through all things.
Kharakov, I'm not looking for a sign I am looking for the truth that should be found in any Book that was truly authored by God. The Bible has proof in it's prophecies. All of the other religious text have no proof, so from where I'm standing, I have the real McCoy. If you can show me some other religious books that speak with the accuracy and the prophecies that are found in the Bible, I would be interested. But to date, I have found no such Book.

[campbell34]

God creates all things. Do you not understand the meaning of verse 7 from Isaiah 45?

"I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace and create calamity;
I, the LORD, do all these things.’ "

The light is truth. Darkness is lies. God creates both. You reject God by rejecting the teaching of the bible and claiming it says something other than what it says.
Simply another lie from your corrupt mind. Within the bible, Jesus speaks in parables (short ficticious stories used to illustrate a moral principle).
Yeah. It's generally a bad idea to call someone a fool. It creates useless dischord. Of course, there are times when a fool must be called a fool.
God created the literal light, and the literal darkness. He also created human beings, and it is the human beings, that tell lies. It is you who have convereted literal light, in to a verbal lie, not me. Your the one making the changes here.

[campbell34]

Oh yes, this is a gem! When you believe the earth is 6000 years old, you obviously don't have the concept of obvious down.
Well I don't recall ever saying the Earth was 6,000 years old. So before you start talking about my concepts, I would suggest you get your facts right.

[campbell34]

It only says that in the New testament. Sorry but you can't use a text as proof of it's own validity without any corrobarrating evidence.

exp:Joe says he's not a liar therfore he must be telling the truth.


If you have an agenda, you can make the bible (or anything else) mean anything you want it too.


I notice you don't list studying it as an option.


I see. so if I take "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times" and apply it to the world as it is now I can call it an "anomilie", declare Dickens a prophet, and start telling people A Tale of Two Cities is the infallible word of god?


Well lets see...it's talking about a concerted effort against Isreal by a multi-national force, "mountains falling down"..."a flooding downpour and hailstones, fire, and brimstone I shall rain down upon him and his bands"..
Answer--never.
I don't see how quoting a prophiecy that hasn't come true yet supports your point.
Also I'll say this again; it's not the old testament prophecies I have a problem with (therefore equating these descriptions with modern day weaponry doesn't support your point). I fully believe that there have been people in history who actually were hooked into some kind of transcendant knowledge, and that the old testament prophets may well be examples of this.
It's the christian interpretation of these prophecies I have a problem with.

I notice you're proceeding from the presumption that if someone doesn't accept your interpretation of the prophecies he must not believe in prophecy in general.

It's the same logic christians use when they say "If you're not a christian than obviously you're an atheist so how do you explain creation?"

Hows this; I think ferraris are the only true car, therfore if you don't own a ferrari you obviously don't believe in internal combustion in which case how do you explain all the cars on the road?

See how ridiculous this is?


I'm familiar with the practice by modern christians of selecting certain portions of a text and ignoring the rest in order to validate their interpretation of prophecy. You've stated that ancient Jewish scholars did the same thing. Can you show that this is true?
1. The Bible has withstood the test of time, and it's older than Joe. And the prophecies of the Bible are true, as can be observed. The Jews have returned to Israel, and they have retaken South Israel first just as the Bible stated they would, (1948), and they retook Jerusalem second, as the Bible said they would (1967).

2. If you take the Bible and it prophecies literally, there are few directions one can move. And that is why most people who do not want to believe the Bible,
don't want to read it literally.

3. Just the prophecies of Christ found in the Old Testement number about three hundred. It might be possible for chance to explain His fulfilling a few, but fulfilling all three hundred. GET REAL.

4. You don't see how a prophecy that has not come true supports my point? Well first the prophecy talks about the Jews returning from all over the world back to the land of Israel. This has already come true, Second it states that they would retake South Israel first, they did. Then the prophecy states they would take Jerusalem second. This also happened as the Bible stated. And as you read the other prophecies, it talks about the Sealed East Gate, the Gate is there, and it is sealed as the prophecy stated. The prophecy then states that Israel will nolonger be a divided nation, and it states it would have one leader over the nation, and not two like in the past. This has also come to pass. The prophecy states that the ancient places and cities would be rebuilt again. This has happened as well. If you can't see this fulfillment, then your not paying attention. I might point out that Christian ministers from the 1600s throught the 1800s were telling people that before Christ returns, the Bible clearly states that the Jews will first have to return to Israel and retake Jerusalem. They understood this, because they took the Bible literally.

5. Many of the prophecies cannot be understood without both Books present. Old and New Testaments. For you only have half the story in the Old Testament and the other half of the story is in the New Testament. When you put the Book together, then you see the story line. This is especially true with the prophecies that involve America.

6. The Orthdox Jews still believe in the prophecies, where as the more liberal Jewish theologians donot.

7. Your ferraris example is to simplistic. There is a whole story being played out before our eyes, and the world is the stage. The Bible is the program which reveals the events that are about to unfold, but few are listening.

[NaykidApe]

1. The Bible has withstood the test of time, and it's older than Joe. And the prophecies of the Bible are true, as can be observed. The Jews have returned to Israel, and they have retaken South Israel first just as the Bible stated they would, (1948), and they retook Jerusalem second, as the Bible said they would (1967). How about supplying some specific passages to back that up.


2. If you take the Bible and it prophecies literally, there are few directions one can move. And that is why most people who do not want to believe the Bible, don't want to read it literally.If you take the bible literally the whole east gate prophecy theory falls apart (already demonstrated this).

3. Just the prophecies of Christ found in the Old Testement number about three hundred. It might be possible for chance to explain His fulfilling a few, but fulfilling all three hundred. GET REAL.
The question is whether or not he actually fullfilled the prophecies, not what the odds agaisnt it happening by chance would be.

4. You don't see how a prophecy that has not come true supports my point? Well first the prophecy talks about the Jews returning from all over the world back to the land of Israel. This has already come true, Second it states that they would retake South Israel first, they did. Then the prophecy states they would take Jerusalem second. This also happened as the Bible stated.
None of this is propheciesed in Ezk.38, which is the chapter you told me to read (changing the subject again?).


And as you read the other prophecies, it talks about the Sealed East Gate, the Gate is there, and it is sealed as the prophecy stated. The prophecy then states that Israel will nolonger be a divided nation, and it states it would have one leader over the nation, and not two like in the past. This has also come to pass. The prophecy states that the ancient places and cities would be rebuilt again. This has happened as well. If you can't see this fulfillment, then your not paying attention. I might point out that Christian ministers from the 1600s throught the 1800s were telling people that before Christ returns, the Bible clearly states that the Jews will first have to return to Israel and retake Jerusalem. They understood this, because they took the Bible literally.I've already addressed the whole gate issue, and we're not debating whether or not the bible should be taken literally, we're debating whether or not it's appropriate to select bits and peices of a prophecy and reject the rest if the rest contradicts you're interpretation.

5. Many of the prophecies cannot be understood without both Books present. Old and New Testaments. For you only have half the story in the Old Testament and the other half of the story is in the New Testament. When you put the Book together, then you see the story line. This is especially true with the prophecies that involve America. How about giving us an example to illustrate your point?

6. The Orthdox Jews still believe in the prophecies, where as the more liberal Jewish theologians donot. My question was: I'm familiar with the practice by modern christians of selecting certain portions of a text and ignoring the rest in order to validate their interpretation of prophecy. You've stated that ancient Jewish scholars did the same thing. Can you show that this is true?



7. Your ferraris example is to simplistic. There is a whole story being played out before our eyes, and the world is the stage. The Bible is the program which reveals the events that are about to unfold, but few are listening.Looks like you missed my point.

[campbell34]

campbell can I get a rain check till tommorow...

lots of writing there..I'm really interested.....but I just gotta go to Zzzz's now cause it's been a long day.............

Yawnnnnnnnnnnnn

g'night
no problem, get some sleep.

[natural23]

Campbell,

It appears to me that the Truth is so regardless of what I think or say; however, the universe appears to include what I think and say. I am learning; if there is a judgement made about the nature of my existence, the nature of my character, and I am thus driven, then I ask to let those truths be revealed. I have found that my expectations have lead me into responding to judgements similar to that aforementioned and that by asking, by seeking, with sincerity of heart that the truth is often revealed; there are times, however, where greater faith is required when answers are not, at least immediately, provided.

I do not intend to discount or prejudge the statements that you are making in these threads; however, I do not entirely understand your expressions either. It may be the case that part of what is occuring in these threads are misunderstandings because of the use of different systems of communication and understanding. If you recall my island analogy, I asked the question; "If some people live on an isolated island and they have developed an understanding of the world, and of heaven, that are equivalent to that expressed or relayed by you but in a different langauge and with no books but they believe in what Jesus taught; would this make them condemed to hellfire?" Could it be that there are good and just people of many different religious and philosophical origins, that we are all learning, and that even those who have accepted Christ into their hearts are fallible and have lessons to learn about life ?

As I read your words I say to myself that this man, Campbell, who I have developed sincere respect for, may very well be correct in some, or all, of the prophecy that he relays; and, I also say to myself, that I will not be coerced by fear or by any other means into accepting that that is not truly revealed to me. Your words stoke, for me, a feeling, in the form of a prayer, that human beings build a better world and learn to work together. I do not want to put myself into a position of creating unjust coercion by fear or by other means, and I understand that although I have significant questions and reserve about what you express in these threads that I also have a lot to learn from you. So, in writing this I am asking you to consider that maybe you have many lessons waiting that can be brought about by the others participating in these threads. I have found, in my life, that the questions and the view points that I have have a place and have validity even when I have undergone significant change in how I view the world; I have experienced that this is one of the hallmarks of a lesson, or lessons, being truly revealed; that is that I see how my questions and views fit into the new view.


Peace and Blessing,

David





[removed part of first sentence / corr. typo in 2nd par. - 112305].

[campbell34]

How about supplying some specific passages to back that up.


If you take the bible literally the whole east gate prophecy theory falls apart (already demonstrated this).


The question is whether or not he actually fullfilled the prophecies, not what the odds agaisnt it happening by chance would be.


None of this is propheciesed in Ezk.38, which is the chapter you told me to read (changing the subject again?).


I've already addressed the whole gate issue, and we're not debating whether or not the bible should be taken literally, we're debating whether or not it's appropriate to select bits and peices of a prophecy and reject the rest if the rest contradicts you're interpretation.

How about giving us an example to illustrate your point?

My question was: I'm familiar with the practice by modern christians of selecting certain portions of a text and ignoring the rest in order to validate their interpretation of prophecy. You've stated that ancient Jewish scholars did the same thing. Can you show that this is true?



Looks like you missed my point.
1. No, the prophecy does not fall apart, once you realize that it is a prophecy.

2. If you lay out the prophecies, then you will understand that they were fulfilled by accounts that mirror them in the New Testament.

3. All of those prophecies will be found in Ezk. 36, 37, 38, and 39.
With one execption, and that is the order the Jews would retake the land. And that will be found in Zec. chapter 12. It also states how upset the Jews will be when they find out who has saved them. For the God of the Bible states, then they will Look upon Me who they periced and they will morn for Him as one would morns for His only Son. Terrible greif will come to the nation of Israel when they finally discover who their God really is.

4. If you read about the destruction of Babylon in Revelation 18 it really makes little sense. If you read about the destruction of Babylon in Jer. 50,and 51 the story is still lacking. Yet, put both Books together, and you start to see the whole picture.

[spook13]

Kharakov, I'm not looking for a sign I am looking for the truth that should be found in any Book that was truly authored by God. The Bible has proof in it's prophecies. All of the other religious text have no proof, so from where I'm standing, I have the real McCoy. If you can show me some other religious books that speak with the accuracy and the prophecies that are found in the Bible, I would be interested. But to date, I have found no such Book.I'm going to jump in here for a minute.

Campbell, points for you to consider:

The scriptures of "other religions", specifically Hinduism, can be proven to be true by other means than demonstrably fulfilled prophecies.

These same scriptures also are prophetic, but the prophecies usually involve much longer periods of time than those in the Bible...in Hindu scripture, prophecy is more aeonic than relatively short-term...that doesn't make it necessarily untrue...no prophecy is true until it happens, and until your East Gate prophecy is fulfilled, the mathematical probability of its fulfillment stands at zero. A rough analogy...you can win the lottery ten times in a row but your probability of winning again always goes back to zero with each new game.

Allright, there are 300 prophecies about Christ that were fullfilled if you read the Bible the way you and JDFU do. Could it be possible that for each of those that came true there were ten that went unfulfilled, and didn't get written down?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking your basic faith in God, which I highly admire...just raising some points that came to mind in following this discussion.

[Kharakov]

Could you show us in the Bible where it states that Jesus Words are but fables?
It doesn't say that, and I didn't say it in that post. I quoted the bible, which quotes Jesus as saying that Jesus speaks in parables.

fable: a fictitious narrative or statement: b : a narration intended to enforce a useful truth;

parable: a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle