what's the difference between zen and taoism?

[ThE_BluE_ShoE]

i'm wondering what everyone has to say about what the differences are between zen and taoism. i'm new to both, and they seem the same to me, though im sure they didn't come from the exact same time. so far, it seems to me that they both are based on:

1. the beginners mind; retaining innocence w/out complicating life with unnecessary information and emotional attachments
2. not acting against the circumstance at hand, and working with what you have
3. accepting the here and now, and living in the moment
4. 'every thousand mile journey begins with one step.'
5. helping others achieve their own enlightenment

so what's the difference? i realize they have different names and come from different people, but is there any real difference between zen and taoism?

thank you

[themnax]

taoism is taoism. zen is a kind of taoist way of looking at buddhism.

zen isn't one belief but a whole family of beliefs with one foot in buddhism and one in taoism. having in common that persuit of clearity through minimalism which the old man (lao tzu) wished to preserve and shaire.

i'm not good at being so succintly concise as either zen or tao aspire to, but can and do deeply apreciate it when i come accrose examples of doing so.

these are things far wiser then my own tendency to babble.

=^^=
.../\...

[phaedros]

zen is simply just the practice of meditation..it comes from the word zazen

[gadfly]

Both forms aspire to confound distinction, and, of course, there is much variety of personal and doctrinal interpretation. That is why this is really a great question. I believe that anyone that has taken some time to contemplate the meanings of both Zen and Taoism might find this to be a sort of koan. It seems that Zen was inspired by Taoist thought but was applied to buddhist principles of transcendence, while Taoism is based on harmonious existence. These are all forms, of course, and both systems aspire to at least a communion with formlessness. I believe that a master of either Zen or Taoism will have no better answer to this question as you have within yourself, for ultimately all things are equal between being and non-being, yin and yang.
If you're confused, that's a good sign. ;)

[jnanic]

For me, Zen focuses on the immediate and direct experience of the Tao

Peace and love
Jnanic

[dirtydog]

One day a complete asshole came to our monastery. The Master said, Go on, get out. The complete asshole said, five hundred years ago I was a student here. We had a real Master then, not a piece of shit. The Master said, you have some understanding, but you will need thirty-one more incarnations. Of course I'm a shit! I must be a shit, if I'm surrounded by assholes all day!

* * *

One day David was talking to Isai, who's claim to fame was as a priest at Shasta Abbey, California (reformed Soto Zen Buddhist Abbey).
David asked, "You are obviously living an ascetic life. Don't you want to hop on a big bike, gun it down the road, get rude, get laid, party all night?"
Isai said, "That was my previous life, and this is better."
David asked, "Why did Bodhidharma go from India to China?"
Isai asked, "Why did David come from the South?"
David said, "It is not polite to answer a question with a question."
Isai said, "Unless the answer to the question, is a question."
David said, "A kitchen is nothing without dirty dishes."
Isai said, "We live in a world of form."
David said, "I'm sick of talking to these goddamn pure monks all morning."
Isai said, "Where?"

* * *

Master Rick said, "To beat your opponent, you must become one with him."
David said, "What happens if your opponent becomes one with you?"
Master Rick said, "You're in trouble then."

* * *

A month after the meditation workshop with the folks from Shasta Abbey, California, David received an envelope in the mail, with a brochure telling how he could improve his karma (if not his bank account) by donating.
-- $500 buys us a replacement bell for our main yard.
-- $50 buys us fifty pounds of rice.
-- $5 buys us one day's janitorial supplies.
David was in no mood to improve his karma that day, so he sent them back a page torn from Teachings of Huang Po. He underlined a single sentence. "Never by seeking shall you attain enlightenment."
David received no further brochures, for some reason.

[dirtydog]

Both forms aspire to confound distinction, and, of course, there is much variety of personal and doctrinal interpretation. That is why this is really a great question. I believe that anyone that has taken some time to contemplate the meanings of both Zen and Taoism might find this to be a sort of koan. It seems that Zen was inspired by Taoist thought but was applied to buddhist principles of transcendence, while Taoism is based on harmonious existence. These are all forms, of course, and both systems aspire to at least a communion with formlessness. I believe that a master of either Zen or Taoism will have no better answer to this question as you have within yourself, for ultimately all things are equal between being and non-being, yin and yang.
If you're confused, that's a good sign. ;)When I piss, I try to strike the side of the toilet bowl, so that it is not as loud.

[dirtydog]

Hyakujo's Fox
Once when Hyakujo delivered some Zen lectures an old man attended them, unseen by the monks. At the end of each talk when the monks left so did he. But one day he remained after the had gone, and Hyakujo asked him: `Who are you?'
The old man replied: `I am not a human being, but I was a human being when the Kashapa Buddha preached in this world. I was a Zen master and lived on this mountain. At that time one of my students asked me whether the enlightened man is subject to the law of causation. I answered him: "The enlightened man is not subject to the law of causation." For this answer evidencing a clinging to absoluteness I became a fox for five hundred rebirths, and I am still a fox. Will you save me from this condition with your Zen words and let me get out of a fox's body? Now may I ask you: Is the enlightened man subject to the law of causation?'

Hyakujo said: `The enlightened man is one with the law of causation.'

At the words of Hyakujo the old man was enlightened. `I am emancipated,' he said, paying homage with a deep bow. `I am no more a fox, but I have to leave my body in my dwelling place behind this mountain. Please perform my funeral as a monk.' The he disappeared.

The next day Hyakujo gave an order through the chief monk to prepare to attend the funeral of a monk. `No one was sick in the infirmary,' wondered the monks. `What does our teacher mean?'

After dinner Hyakujo led the monks out and around the mountain. In a cave, with his staff he poked out the corpse of an old fox and then performed the ceremony of cremation.

That evening Hyakujo gave a talk to the monks and told this story about the law of causation.

Obaku, upon hearing this story, asked Hyakujo: `I understand that a long time ago because a certain person gave a wrong Zen answer he became a fox for five hundred rebirths. Now I was to ask: If some modern master is asked many questions, and he always gives the right answer, what will become of him?'

Hyakujo said: `You come here near me and I will tell you.'

Obaku went near Hyakujo and slapped the teacher's face with this hand, for he knew this was the answer his teacher intended to give him.

Hyakujo clapped his hands and laughed at the discernment. `I thought a Persian had a red beard,' he said, `and now I know a Persian who has a red beard.'

Mumon's comment: `The enlightened man is not subject.' How can this answer make the monk a fox?

`The enlightened man is at one with the law of causation.' How can this answer make the fox emancipated?

To understand clearly one has to have just one eye.


Controlled or not controlled?
The same dice shows two faces.
Not controlled or controlled,
Both are a grievous error.

[mandell]

The Great Way is not difficult
for those who have no preferences.
When love and hate are both absent
everything becomes clear and undisguised.
Make the smallest distinction,
however, and heaven and earth are
set infinitely apart.
If you wish to see the truth then
hold no opinions for or against
anything.
To set up what you like against
what you dislike is the disease of
the mind.
When the deep meaning of things
is not understood
the mind's essential peace is
disturbed to no avail...

Verses on the Faith Mind
by Sengtsan, 3rd Zen Patriarch

[BlackBillBlake]

zen is simply just the practice of meditation..it comes from the word zazen
I fear you are misinformed. Some schools of Zen or Chan actually reject meditation practice as another example of 'forcing things'.

[BlackBillBlake]

When I piss, I try to strike the side of the toilet bowl, so that it is not as loud.
Obviously, you've seen 'The Last Emperor' - when he was in the rehabilitation camp during the cultural revolution this was one lesson he had to learn. Not to wake up everyone in the dorm when he went for a pee in the night.
Only difference is that he was pissing in a bucket not a modern flush toilet.

[themnax]

if i were in the form of a man
or in the form of a fox
or in the form of a disembodied spirit with no form

if i practiced zen or tao
i would be practicing zen or tao.

and by this
not becoming attatched to distinctions

=^^=
.../\...

[Birmingham]

the real difference between Zen and Taoism is simply the name.

[aesther]

zen can be looked at as buddhism + taoism. it carries the fragrance of both

[Gaston]

Zen is a stick with Buddhism at one end and the Tao at the other. How much of either you perceive depends on where you grab the stick ... but no matter where you grab it, the stick is made of both.

[dirtydog]

Much talk, much exhaustion.

[Xac]

taoism is taoism. zen is a kind of taoist way of looking at buddhism.

zen isn't one belief but a whole family of beliefs with one foot in buddhism and one in taoism. having in common that persuit of clearity through minimalism which the old man (lao tzu) wished to preserve and shaire.

I'd give a reply myself but this sums it up as well as anything i would have said any way.

[mortes]

I always wondered the same as the OP, because I got started on zen, then went to traditional buddhism and clearly saw differences in the two theories. (I much prefered zen, or at least kerouac's version of it too many rules in buddhism) Finally I read the tao te ching and the tao of poo. Well I still don't have an answer to the question except that they come from different sources and are interpretive. A zen monk would meditate, and a taoist naps.

[sublime94]

wow they are pretty close.

[denise-louise]

A zen monk would meditate, and a taoist naps.
i know this thread is ancient but this is the funniest and quite likely most profound thing i have read in a long while...:lol: http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/newsmilies/smilielol5.gif