Wicca and homosexuality

[Samhain]

can they go hand in hand, tradional branches of witchcraft would say that gay couples disregard the god or the goddess and that so not to create an imbalance homosexuality needs to be left out of the circle.
where as Starhawk has created a pagan creation myth that is not gender specific so not to be biased about sexuality.
anyone on here got an honest point of view, also i'll do a poll and try and do it right this time.

S

[Sage-Phoenix]

I never realised wicca (well parts of it anyway) didn't accept homosexuality. It's such a shame.
People are just they way they are, surely the God and Goddess know and accept that so why should it be an issue.
As for it screwing up the cosmic balance or whatever. Well I've no truck with that, it's a symbolic anyway. So how about symbolising some acceptance.

BB
Sage

PS In the poll I didn't mean to vote for the option about being uncomfortable with homosexuals in the coven. I meant to go for the one underneath. :)

[Samhain]

sage I think its more of a case of being intolerant to be honest, like some people will think homosexuality as no part in it, but just because someone is gay it doesn't mean that they will be judged or punished, just disregarded, which isn't right but is certainly less fundamental.
having said all this I have yet to meet a pagan with a problem with homosexualityand certainly there are a lot of pagans in the uk in the public eye that are shifting to move 'their' paganism to gender and sexuality nautral, so no matter what sexuality you are you should feel comfortable.
also i think its possible to have the balance within gay relationships, just because its two people of the same sex it doesn't mean it isn't a representation of the goddess and god, also i think it balances out over all,, so where their may be a more masculine focassed couple (ether gay or lesbian) there will be a fememine same sex couple to balance it up with over all in the world, if that makes sense.

p.s glad to know i'm not the only one who has problems with polls!

[RyvreWillow]

i think someone has basically made this point but:

No one is completely male, or female, so sexual (as in gender) balance can be achieved even by a couple who is of a single gender.

The God and Goddess love us for who we are :D

[cerridwen]

can they go hand in hand, tradional branches of witchcraft would say that gay couples disregard the god or the goddess and that so not to create an imbalance homosexuality needs to be left out of the circle.
Where have you read/heard that? Wicca is an embracing religion, regardless of your sex or sexuality... I don't remember ever hearing anything remotely close to that in wiccan writings...

[Samhain]

Where have you read/heard that? Wicca is an embracing religion, regardless of your sex or sexuality... I don't remember ever hearing anything remotely close to that in wiccan writings...

Good

unfortantly it has been there and still is to a certain extent. also a lot of gay people feel left out as they feel that is it is geared towards the myth of the union and relationship between the goddess and god.
the witches Bible for instance states that it doesn't mind about homosexuality providing it is left out of the circle, then they go on to say that they have even got gay friends!
wicca IS an embracing religion of course but don't fall into the trap that all of it followers are because theyre not.
I alwasy advice people to study Starhawks work for a good dose of open mindedness.

S

[cerridwen]

Just a point I want to make about that passage in the Witch's Bible...


You're absolutely right, it doesn't mind homosexuality, and the appropriate place is out of the circle, but equally as much as heterosexuality. The focus of the circle IS the circle, not sexuality. It's not specific in knocking homosexuality, it's just saying to stay focused on what your intentions of having a circle is. Things like sex and sexuality (among other things) are left out of it.

I just wanted to make that clear.

[Samhain]

Just a point I want to make about that passage in the Witch's Bible...


You're absolutely right, it doesn't mind homosexuality, and the appropriate place is out of the circle, but equally as much as heterosexuality. The focus of the circle IS the circle, not sexuality. It's not specific in knocking homosexuality, it's just saying to stay focused on what your intentions of having a circle is. Things like sex and sexuality (among other things) are left out of it.

I just wanted to make that clear.

I was talking about what the book said, not my opinon on it. my opninon is that it states homophobic views, then tries to hide behind what it says by saying they don't mind it, anyway I think its a book of its time and very out dated.
I further disagree with you that sexuality is left out of the circle, as sexuality between the goddess and god is included, espiecally with people who use the symbol of the athame and the cup and at rites such as Beltane.
dispite the fact that the godess gives birth and in paganism its hardly a virgin birth.
sexuality is a natural part of life, as i'm sure you'll agree and ive seen it be an open part of many pagan rituals unfortunatly for the less open amongst us its very hetro based.
I started this thread asking for peoples views on homosexuality and wicca so I think on the point of wether the religion as a whole is homophobic we should agree to differ, now that we know what each others points of view are

S

[velvet]

About the God - Goddess...


I'm fairly new to all of this, but I thought that there is a believe in a 'higher power' that has a perfect balance in itself.. and because of the fact that we humans like to make things a little more obvious and personal, most people see that 'power' as a male and a female.. because it are two clear opposites and it is more easy to talk to something that has a human form.

You can compare it to colors.. black and white are the commonly used opposites, altough red and green are opposites as well.

Sooo.. for me personally I'm not focusing to much on the gender thing here, although I do have a cetrain image of the 'perfect God' and 'perfect Godsess'. I believe in a 'power' but I think that the personification of that is merely something we humans do..

What do you guys think of this view? 'cause when you look at things this way, homosexuality isn't really an issue, since there is no real male/female boundary in the 'power'.. it's just One.

btw: I liked the explaination of a previous poster on how there's a balance in everything, so a male-male couple balance a female-female couple etc..

[cerridwen]

I absolutely agree with you, Velvet...

[Samhain]

I agree too. Unforunatly there are still people out there that believe that same sex equals an inbalance.
but then theres no point in trying to change others views, just be true to our own.
thanks for your post hopefully we'll read a lot more by you!

blessings

S

[cerridwen]

This is just a thought... do you think that posts like this promote the idea of segregation of certain groups of people, or does it promote acceptance? Or should these ideas be completely taken out, with the whole 'ignorance is bliss' mentality? If you were running a coven or raising children, would something like this be a topic of discussion?

[know1nozme]

This is just a thought... do you think that posts like this promote the idea of segregation of certain groups of people, or does it promote acceptance? Or should these ideas be completely taken out, with the whole 'ignorance is bliss' mentality? If you were running a coven or raising children, would something like this be a topic of discussion?
These posts simply promote discussion. Let's face it, most of us grew up in a culture where sexuality was an issue. At this point, calling attention to the thought that some people judge others by thier sexuality isn't divisive, it's merely acknowledging something that is already a part of our culture, whether we agree with it or not. By paying attention to the issue, we take power away from the notion that such judgement is acceptable simply by calling it into question.

[Samhain]

These posts simply promote discussion. Let's face it, most of us grew up in a culture where sexuality was an issue. At this point, calling attention to the thought that some people judge others by thier sexuality isn't divisive, it's merely acknowledging something that is already a part of our culture, whether we agree with it or not. By paying attention to the issue, we take power away from the notion that such judgement is acceptable simply by calling it into question.

hear hear,
when I cast circles they are a representation of the universe and life and as such sexaulity is included.
S

[cerridwen]

These posts simply promote discussion. Let's face it, most of us grew up in a culture where sexuality was an issue. At this point, calling attention to the thought that some people judge others by thier sexuality isn't divisive, it's merely acknowledging something that is already a part of our culture, whether we agree with it or not. By paying attention to the issue, we take power away from the notion that such judgement is acceptable simply by calling it into question.
I agree, although there's a fine line between recognizing our differences and being accepting of them. It's little tiny things we do, like when we discuss things like religion or politics or sexuality etc, how we choose to handle the situation (from coming right against it or doing small things like rolling our eyes sarcastically).

I was raised in a family where we didn't make an issue of sexuality - my uncle is gay and my brother, cousins and I are all close to him. Sexuality was never an issue because it wasn't turned into one. Neither were things like race (having 3 biracial couples existing in my family, and their children) and now with me, having more diverse religions in the family (my family is all catholic).

Point being, we make an issue of what we want to make an issue out of. Discussion is healthy, I agree... But making certian generalities like 'Well, I'm not against it but I know it's a taboo thing in society' is, in a way, dousing the flames of the suggestion that there should be some separation between one group of people and another, that's all I'm saying.

[Samhain]

unfortunatly homosexuality, and witch craft are still taboos in some societies, and not acknowledging that isn't going to make predudice go away.
I know that your family have difficulty with your paganism simply from what you have written on here before, I can't believe that not discussing it helps.

S