History is a Crock

[demosthenes]

It really is. I would go as far as to say that 90% of "history" is false.
Examples, there are so many. I'll just give one.
They say that the Spanish came to the Americas and wiped the Aztecs, the Maya, and the Inca, and that those civilisations "disappeared". But if you GO to any of those places, you will find those people alive and well....and even speaking the ancient tongues. They burned the Great Library of Alexandria for a reason, and every history-book is written with the bias of those whom they want to read them.
History is a crock, mostly untrue, a blanket story written by those who finagled their ways into having influence and being able to tell the stories the way they wanted.
Take the American Revolution (OK, so two examples). It wasn't fought over Freedom by any stretch of the imagination...it was businessmen who didn't want to pay taxes, and knew they were sitting on a continent full of the natural resources that Europe had depleted.
History is for the birds!

[Duck]

the American Revolution was still a great deal about freedom
not as much as we are led to believe
and they didn't wipe out the Aztecs and shit exactly, but they destroyed their civilizations

you are quite a naive one if you believe everything you hear in school, but you are also naive if you say that means most of it is bullshit

just as watching the news and such you have to sort through truths, half truths, and utter fallacies

[alex714]

I think much, if not all, "classroom history" is a crock

But its a stretch saying that all history is


History comes down to your own ability to question what youre learning and figure out for yourself what youre willing to believe according to whatever evidence you can gather.

Its about the individual and your pursuit for whatever truth you can gather. Its attempting to seek an understanding of something frozen in time, teaching you human behaviour and progress/degeneration

To charge history as null is to challenge a certain completness it provides (for me that is)

[guy]

the american middle class refused to pay the newly imposed tax on paper.
in the history of the world it is the middle class that are the "revolutionary" class.
this is why those in power destroy them occassionally to retain power. rome was a monarchy that was overthrown by a middle class, as was america, and france (and cuba in this case cuba was being run by a dictator who took his orders from the now imperial government somewhere in america)

[demosthenes]

Midldle class never did anything. If anything, it was the lower class---France, Russia---that made things happen. In the Colonies, it was businessmen that wrote up laws to make sure they profited through the years.
I agree we must learn from our mistakes, but I also believe that history is a crock. I don't believe a word of it.

[Rigamarole]

NO!

History is a cock.

It really is.

It's long, hard, and full of seamen.

[Pressed_Rat]

I would agree, except I would say 95% of history is a crock instead of 90%.

[guy]

so was benjamin franklin some poor farmer somewhere? was washington some guy just struggling to make ends meets, thomas jefferson etc? che guevaras family had some money afterall he was studying to be a doctor. no i'm sure that with a little examination of the facts you'll find that when you look at things from a different angle you might think differently. do some research and prove me wrong. the middle class are usually educated people and the middle echelon in the termite colony. the slaves such as myself are usually uneducated and easily controlled. the upper echelon relies on the middle echelon to keep the masses controlled (as the middle class usually have some kind of management role in business circles and in social movements). i'd say most of the people who post on this site are either on a middle class income or the children of the middle class. history shows that it is the middle class who are the true revolutionaries. my guess is that this has been going on for thousands of years, history repeats itself, ancient rome, imperial athens, sparta, china, india (enforced through the caste system).

[PharaohWhim]

History is as much a crock as is anything manufactured by the hands of man can be. But if it is as much a crock as you believe it is, then why do we know about people like Marx and Emelyan Pugachev? History is there, but it takes a discerning mind to understand all the implications of bias--geographical, social, political, etc.--and it is in the end the people who are the culmination of the crock for their inability to truly absorb the information presented to them. Like Thomas Jefferson said though, "The masses are asses."

What sets humans apart though--we have control of animalistic desires that are still lodged in our skulls despite eons of "enlightenment." We should be able to break that cycle of history, and create something completely, truly revolutionary. It's not something that's an absolute.

I'm sorry, is that off topic? I'm sorry, I'm sorry...

[Aristartle]

History isn't a crook. Nobody ever said that the Aztecs, the Mayans or the Incas were wiped out completely. I don't know anyone that has ever said that. EVER.

Look, the best source of historical accounts come from primary sources - like a journal, a diary, a newspaper or a letter. These are the kinds of sources that are needed for future. They give people a snapshot of what the writer was thinking, observing and dealing with at that moment in history.

I think internet blogging could be very important in the future, that is, if everyone's hard drives doesn't crash on them or something awful like that.

Pictures can be stored forever onto a computer. I can see what the Mona Lisa looks like no matter how many times it's been stolen or will be for that matter.

Now more than ever, historians, journalists and every day common-people can publish without fear of persecution - and as their reception they are criticised, debated, interviewed and scrutinized. People write books about other people writing books. For Christ's sake, only 150 years ago women were only published if they wrote under a male's identity and name. People are continuing to write about history, because history needs to keep on being written.

There are holes in history, but you don't shoot every dog because one of them has fleas.

[MikeE]

Mathematics education in K-12 is wrong. When studied further, you see that simple things like 1+1=2 are simplifications and not always true. Further study shows that in all areas of math, the full details were omitted in high school. One could say that "high school math is a crock." (Please do not change the way you balance your cheque book.)

The history taught in High School may be incomplete, but it is a decent survey of history, given the time avaliable to learn the subject. It is an incomplete survey, but it gets the jist across.

To take one of your examples, the Aztecs stopped being a functioning government after the conquest. Even though the people were still alive, there was no "Aztec" control of the area. Given the time constraints, "The Spanish wiped out the Aztecs" seems to be a reasonable summery.

If you are interested, you can investigate further (as you did) and find the detail and a fuller history than what is taught in High School.

Just like math and history, all subjects taught in High School are at an incomplete survey level. Which is what is needed to give students exposure to the full range of subjects.

[Megara]

as for the American Rev and Freedom. Look up economic freedom. It is every bit as important as freedom of speech and other inalienable rights.

[Stillravenmad]

If history is a crock, then why are you trying to use it to back up your arguement? Your arguement is flawd because you don't know what the word "history" means.

[SLammon420]

History is nothing more than a series of events. History isn't a crock, people's interpretations of history are a crock.

[Inquiring-Mind]

most of it is, like the history of leftism.

Ideology killings, communism killed many people. If ideology kills people then how many did capitalism kill, deaths related to capitalism or deaths that are the result of capitalism?

communism killed this and this many but yet capitalism is innocent.


"History is a story written by the victors." Churchill

History remembers only the winners, like for Example we know much more about ancient Egypt than ancient Nubia.

[SLammon420]

"History is a story written by the victors." Churchill

Pretty much what I said above.

[koopa]

99% of history is unrecorded or unknown.........let alone a crock!!!

[SLammon420]

99% of history is unrecorded or unknown.........let alone a crock!!!
99% percent of statistics are made up on the spot and/or are bullshit.

[koopa]

so you think there isn't countless years of history unbeknownst to us slammon 420? I used the number 99% to express and accentuate my point that ALMOST ALL history is beyond our recollection. I was IN NO WAY ascertaining that this was a legitimate statistic. How could I possibly claim to know an exact percentage of history that is UNKNOWN? Your 14 years old so you really can't call bullshit on anybody especially about existential issues you don't understand and replies you don't comprehend!

[SLammon420]

Your 14 years old so you really can't call bullshit on anybody especially about existential issues you don't understand and replies you don't comprehend!
It seems like this is the only thing anyone can say to me on these forums. I say nothing to make anyone made and I just have positive input and all anyone can reply with is "Shutup, you're 14". The thing is, you wouldn't know what I could understand or comprehend since you have never had any contact with me other than this.

As I said above, history is nothing more than a series of events and it's people's interpretations of these events that are wrong, not the events themselves.

[SLammon420]

I was IN NO WAY ascertaining that this was a legitimate statistic. How could I possibly claim to know an exact percentage of history that is UNKNOWN?
It seemed like another on of these made up on the spot statistics.

[Nimrod's Apprentice]

History as we know it was written by White people basically. If you go through history with a fine tooth comb you can easily see the truth of the matters. However yea your 11th grade History class is a crock. Mostly because in ancient history, they first off SKIP Over Africa, or have one chapter devoted to them. They also never mention my hero, the biblical King Nimrod, or for that matter tell any truth of The ancient world, and how basically ever since Babylon the same stories, have been retold applying to their own times.

[StonerBill]

history isnt crock, human recording of history is crock. to have accurate history is very good, to have innacurate history is just a different type of history, one that cant be used as a source directly. The problem with history is that NOT ENOUGH is done to keep accuracy. people think history is bunk and they end up leaving history in the hands of people who know the power of keeping control over history. there needed to be more recording of history in the days of old. nowadays though, a lot of records are kept, all over the world.

[koopa]

99% percent of statistics are made up on the spot and/or are bullshit.

Do you know me like you ask if I know you? How do you know I "made it up on the spot"? Do you know me? And again, even though I spelled it out for you in the second post....I wasn't claiming it as a statistic. HOW COULD I know a statisctic that measures the amount of something I claim to be UNKNOWN? Forgive me for assuming its your age that keeps you from comprehending my words, but you clearly do not.



It seems like this is the only thing anyone can say to me on these forums. I say nothing to make anyone made and I just have positive input and all anyone can reply with is "Shutup, you're 14". The thing is, you wouldn't know what I could understand or comprehend since you have never had any contact with me other than this. You call that positive input? Telling me my point of view is bullshit? The spelling of mad is mad not made. I know that you say history is a series of events misenterpreted by people. I say that most of the events that have happened in the past are no longer known to our generation. Our points are not against eachother but you tell me i'm full of shit. I never said you were full of shit and MY point doesn't deny yours. The problem is that YOU try to deny mine because your more worried about being RIGHT then about WHAT YOU ARE SAYING. So once again if your so brilliant maybe you'd know that THE SMARTEST MAN IS THE ONE WHO CLAIMS IGNORANCE.........when you get to college you may read that.

[weaselpop]

It really is. I would go as far as to say that 90% of "history" is false.
Examples, there are so many. I'll just give one.
They say that the Spanish came to the Americas and wiped the Aztecs, the Maya, and the Inca, and that those civilisations "disappeared". But if you GO to any of those places, you will find those people alive and well....and even speaking the ancient tongues. They burned the Great Library of Alexandria for a reason, and every history-book is written with the bias of those whom they want to read them.
History is a crock, mostly untrue, a blanket story written by those who finagled their ways into having influence and being able to tell the stories the way they wanted.
Take the American Revolution (OK, so two examples). It wasn't fought over Freedom by any stretch of the imagination...it was businessmen who didn't want to pay taxes, and knew they were sitting on a continent full of the natural resources that Europe had depleted.
History is for the birds!

If your going to go along that way, then the only thing that isn't a crock of shit is maths. Go maths! Wahoo!

[weaselpop]

History is nothing more than a series of events. History isn't a crock, people's interpretations of history are a crock.
Looks to me what you're calling History is pretty primative. Just a list of happenings? The discipline of History is a lot more complicated than that.

But anyway, the rest of you, leave the poor lamb alone! :confused:
If you're nice to it you can start influencing it and molding it's opinions ;)

yeah - 'it' cause i forget whether you're he or a she. And if you're annoyed about people commenting on your age, take some advice from something older and wiser ( :p ); get rid of it in your profile.

[SLammon420]

Maybe what I said about history is "a bit primitive", but history really is just a series of events. I'm sorry that I made a typo and spelled mad like made. You have to be pretty out of it to think that I don't know how to spell basic words and the fact that you're pointing something like that out to make me look stupid shows that your whole arguement is abunch of shit. "How do you know I made it up on the spot?" Because it was a ridicolous statement to make. 99% of history is false? That's how I knew. I understand now that you were just kidding. My apologies on that part of it. For the record, I never called your opinion "bullshit" and I respect your opinion just like every one else's.

So, that about sums it up. You said 99%, I said no, you got mad and blamed my age. Sorry.

[SLammon420]

I also never claimed to be brilliant either. I'll go with you on this and say that I am human and only 14...I know I have alot to learn about alot of things.


I also know that alot of events our unknown to our generation. I understand that there was a time before written history. I'm not brilliant but I'm not a moron either.

[SLammon420]

history isnt crock, human recording of history is crock.

yep!

[MikeE]

Is an incomplete record better or worse than no record?

What exactly is meant when something is said to be "a crock"?

[koopa]

You have to be pretty out of it to think that I don't know how to spell basic words
I'm not out of it and I didn't point it out to make you look stupid.....you're responses have done that already. I pointed it out to highlight your age. There is a difference between being naive and being stupid and I'd say you are naive.


the fact that you're pointing something like that out to make me look stupid shows that your whole arguement is abunch of shit.
HOW EXACTLY DOES THAT MAKE SENSE??? HA HA HA HA HA HA


"How do you know I made it up on the spot?" Because it was a ridicolous statement to make. 99% of history is false? That's how I knew. I understand now that you were just kidding. My apologies on that part of it.
Actually this was my original post " 99% of history is unrecorded or unknown.........let alone a crock!!!"

Notice how 1. I don't use the word false I use the words unrecorded and unknown. How can this be any clearer??????? 2. I was kidding about the 99% part only! Once again it was obviously a joke because I assigned a number value to something I said was UNKNOWN OR UNRECORDED. 3. Notice how the .......let alone a crock part is SUPPORTING YOUR STATEMENT!!!!


For the record, I never called your opinion "bullshit" and I respect your opinion just like every one else's.
Actually you did when you typed this in direct reference to my post....

99% percent of statistics are made up on the spot and/or are bullshit.
So, that about sums it up. You said 99%, I said no, you got mad and blamed my age. Sorry.
I actually blamed your inability to comprehend what I wrote...........
Does your age and education factor in, HELL YEAH and you'd be STUPID to deny that!

[SLammon420]

I didn't say that your particular post was bullshit, I just said that most statistics were made up at the moment and/or are bullshit. Once again, I DIDN'T KNOW THE 99% PART WAS A JOKE. I've said that I didn't know that you were joking yet you continue to critiscize what I'm saying. I even apologized in my lat post, said that I had alot to learn and said my age did have something to do with that! I openly admitted all of this then you still won't accept it.

Look man, it all comes down to this. I said that history isn't a crock, the interpretations are a crock...we agree on this...I think.

You said that 99% was unrecorded....I didn't know the 99% portion ofthat was just a joke... so i said it was untrue... we started arguing.

So, once again, I'm apologizing to you and saying that I didn't know you were joking around with the statistics. I once again am saying that I am only 14 and only human, so I have alot to learn...we all do.

[MikeE]

I think it would be a good idea if this site had a spell checker that would question every use of the word "you." That would help folks avoid giving unintentional offence, which would reduce the number of ad hominim quarells.

[SLammon420]

good idea, this is tiring as hell.

[koopa]

don't fret little buddy.........
the ferocity came from and went out with the debate.......
we're all good!

[SLammon420]

nice

[weaselpop]

Yay! love in the world again.

Now... let's create some historically worthy massacres!

[koopa]

Lmfao

[themnax]

i hated the study of history when i was in highschool, percisely because of the distortions precipitated by the 'christian, roman, greek' centric perspective it insisted on taking. acknowledging in passing that other lines of cultural evolution were taking place simultaniusly but refusing to fallow or present them in any rational manor, and never more then as a side bar.

to say that history itself is a crock is rather a broad statement. i have to aggree that the way it was, and however much that way may have chainged in fine detail, in all likely hood is still being, TAUGHT in american public (and probably even worse in private ones), filled to overflowing with distortions, and no shortage of outright lies as well.

there were people and cultures here where i live in the western hemisphere for tens of thousands of years, and what are we taught of ANY of their true histories?

so rome was a big deal super power, created by headonists and destroyed by christians, although they don't really tell you even that. no they don't ever dare put it that way at all. well ok. they can have that.

but if you're going to teach me about the past, and try to pretend it's the whole past and all of it that mattered, then tell me about druids, and everyday life in minoen crete, about ancient empires in india and poland and mongolia. never mind telling me the great khan invaded europe or hannibal sent elephants over the alps, tell me about what any of these things meant really ment to the people living where they came from. tell me about hannibal's second cousin's wives or the copper smiths who fassioned the copper caldron that was unearthed at gundistrop. that's what i want to hear about. not what nero ate for breakfast, or some carthigian general.

=^^=
.../\...

[Megara]

certain history is more pertinent to individuals. Do you think the history of America is more important to an American than say the history of lesotho?

Of course it is. Now extend that back...is the history of rome/greece more pertinent than say kenya to an American? Yep, sure is.

[themnax]

certain history is more pertinent to individuals. Do you think the history of America is more important to an American than say the history of lesotho?

Of course it is. Now extend that back...is the history of rome/greece more pertinent than say kenya to an American? Yep, sure is.

this is where i see the whole concept as being entirely mistaken.

rome/greece is a propiganda smokescreen.
is rome/greece more important to the sacred ground an american is standing on then the people who called it their home for ten thousand years before it was 'discouvered' by renasaunce western europe? i don't think so.

likewise a very high percentage of americans ARE of african decent.

america is a nation of immigrants. immigrants who did NOT all come from western europe. if you did a numeric comparison of totals i suspect the total number of nonindiginous ancestoried americans on where their individual hieritages came from i think you'd find that western european origen, while possibly still the largest single minority, is none the less NOT any longer a majority.

plus if you're only going to study your own ethnicity, which through your own family you ought to already know at least a little, then what the heck is the point of studying history at all, other then as a vehicule for being brainwashed?

kenya? there are probably a LOT of americans who have at least some ancestors from kenya. and likewise just about everywhere else.

no. as an argument for focusing primarily on rome/greece, and as an excuse for distorting everything INCLUDING that, and outright lying about so many things, no this makes no sense at all.

and what about even the real anticedents of just western europe for that matter. do you immagine rome/greece a fair representation of even that origen? if you do you may need to do some homework of REAL history.

=^^=
.../\...

[Megara]

this is where i see the whole concept as being entirely mistaken.

rome/greece is a propiganda smokescreen.
is rome/greece more important to the sacred ground an american is standing on then the people who called it their home for ten thousand years before it was 'discouvered' by renasaunce western europe? i don't think so.
What % of american's arent native americans? like 98%?



likewise a very high percentage of americans ARE of african decent.
Who have inherited a history from Greece/Rome.

america is a nation of immigrants. immigrants who did NOT all come from western europe. if you did a numeric comparison of totals i suspect the total number of nonindiginous ancestoried americans on where their individual hieritages came from i think you'd find that western european origen, while possibly still the largest single minority, is none the less NOT any longer a majority.
The history of Greece/Rome is pertinent to EVERY american. The government, the culture, the philosophy, and so much more is descended from them.

That is not to say that no other history is important..but America has grown out of a Greek/Roman/European history.

plus if you're only going to study your own ethnicity, which through your own family you ought to already know at least a little, then what the heck is the point of studying history at all, other then as a vehicule for being brainwashed?
I think you need to understand who you are before you can even begin nto understand someone else.

kenya? there are probably a LOT of americans who have at least some ancestors from kenya. and likewise just about everywhere else.
The history of Rome/Greece/Europe is pertinent to EVERY American, even if they are from Kenyan. The history of Kenya is NOT pertinent to every American.

no. as an argument for focusing primarily on rome/greece, and as an excuse for distorting everything INCLUDING that, and outright lying about so many things, no this makes no sense at all.
distorting? lying? wtf?

and what about even the real anticedents of just western europe for that matter. do you immagine rome/greece a fair representation of even that origen? if you do you may need to do some homework of REAL history.

=^^=
.../\...
Rome/Greece were heavily influenced by Persia, Egypt and others...yes. One only has to take a Classics class to know that. However, one can not deny the tremendous influence of Greece/Rome on not only the western world, but the whole world.

[Jerry]

Shit, and before you know it Atlantis is gonna pop out of the ocean and fucking satan is gonna take over the world. At least that's what I think will happen soon...

[Aristartle]

I don't understand what's so terrible about learning history, and I can't understand how so many people find it to be a senseless subject of study.

[Megara]

i think it shows the sorry state of education the western world...

[themnax]

I don't understand what's so terrible about learning history, and I can't understand how so many people find it to be a senseless subject of study.

nothing wrong with learning anything that is true and usefull
nothing right with being brainwashed with bald faced lies.

=^^=
.../\...

[Flight From Ashiya]

"History is bunk" - Henry Ford.

[Megara]

nothing wrong with learning anything that is true and usefull
nothing right with being brainwashed with bald faced lies.

=^^=
.../\...
so you see no sense in reading say Herodotos?

[MikeE]

nothing wrong with learning anything that is true and usefull
nothing right with being brainwashed with bald faced lies.

The trick to all book learning is how to dip your brain in the presentation without it being washed.

[mr.morrison]

dude, if you say we should learn about kenya before greece and rome? name one thing kenya did for the modern world. nothing. a lot of their time was spent in wars and tribes. not civilizations. also we do learn about india and mongolia. at least virginia does.and history is more relevant to our every day life than stuff like chemistry. if people never learned about WW2, no one would know it happened in 3 generations and the holocaust would happen again. if we never learned about chemistry, i dont think it would affect the average american too much

[mr.morrison]

but also i might be a bit biased towards history since its personally my favorite subject

[yossarian]

sorry, didnt read the whole post, but, do you think history should be a mandatory high school class? A friend of mine brought this argument (roughly) up a few weeks ago: Science and math and english, in the sense that it teaches writing, are all relevant to what's going on every day. History, though, deals with the past, and is only really needed by politicians and historians, etc. So, like, say, fencing or Latin, it may be fun to learn, but useless in the long run for most people.

I disagree, but I'm wondering what people here say to that argument. It went something like that.

[guy]

i suspect that kenyan history might be a dry read

[fistermister]

History is a crock, mostly untrue, a blanket story written by those who finagled their ways into having influence and being able to tell the stories the way they wanted.

Steady on. I hope to be one of those one day ;-)

[Megara]

sorry, didnt read the whole post, but, do you think history should be a mandatory high school class? A friend of mine brought this argument (roughly) up a few weeks ago: Science and math and english, in the sense that it teaches writing, are all relevant to what's going on every day. History, though, deals with the past, and is only really needed by politicians and historians, etc. So, like, say, fencing or Latin, it may be fun to learn, but useless in the long run for most people.

I disagree, but I'm wondering what people here say to that argument. It went something like that.
the only math i've used since i've graduated college is simple math i learned by about 5th grade. Science? Never used that since i've graduated.

History gives perspective into whats happening today and Why. How can you understand say the israeli-palestinian conflict if you dont know what happened yesterday?

Dont get me wrong, i'm all for pumping money into science/math, but lets not pretend that they are more useful in everyday life. They arent.

[Triumph Hurricane]

so was benjamin franklin some poor farmer somewhere? was washington some guy just struggling to make ends meets, thomas jefferson etc? che guevaras family had some money afterall he was studying to be a doctor. no i'm sure that with a little examination of the facts you'll find that when you look at things from a different angle you might think differently. do some research and prove me wrong. the middle class are usually educated people and the middle echelon in the termite colony. the slaves such as myself are usually uneducated and easily controlled. the upper echelon relies on the middle echelon to keep the masses controlled (as the middle class usually have some kind of management role in business circles and in social movements). i'd say most of the people who post on this site are either on a middle class income or the children of the middle class. history shows that it is the middle class who are the true revolutionaries. my guess is that this has been going on for thousands of years, history repeats itself, ancient rome, imperial athens, sparta, china, india (enforced through the caste system). The problem is the middle class is shrinking by the hours "not even by the days anymore"

[MikeE]

sorry, didnt read the whole post, but, do you think history should be a mandatory high school class? A friend of mine brought this argument (roughly) up a few weeks ago: Science and math and english, in the sense that it teaches writing, are all relevant to what's going on every day. History, though, deals with the past, and is only really needed by politicians and historians, etc. So, like, say, fencing or Latin, it may be fun to learn, but useless in the long run for most people.

I disagree, but I'm wondering what people here say to that argument. It went something like that.
It sounds like you want schools to teach only the minimum needed to keep the masses productive. I think that High School should teach as much as possible. People having unnessesary knowlege is a good thing.

[yossarian]

I certainly don't think high schools should teach the minimum needed to "keep the masses productive." I'm just curious what people think about the argument I presented, which is saying that history is bunk, and should only be pursued by people who are interested in it.

[fountains of nay]

I think that we are not learning important things in History lessons anymore. Sure, by all means teach about the World Wars, but there is a lot of modern history that should be taught aswell, like the cold war, the Falklands, Viet Nam etc etc

[SLammon420]

Science and math and english, in the sense that it teaches writing, are all relevant to what's going on every day. History, though, deals with the past, and is only really needed by politicians and historians, etc. /

Well, you'll never know where you're going if you don't know where you've been.
Yes, I think it's necesarry.

[SLammon420]

a lot of their time was spent in wars and tribes. not civilizations.

Wars and tribes are a part of civilizations. If you mean to say that countries who fight in wars are not civilized, then you're saying most of the world isn't civilized. So, yeah...Kenya is a civilization.

[mr.morrison]

no, i meant that they diddt have a civilization not because of the wars, but because of the fact that they only had like 20 people per tribe. dont be an idiot, you knew what i meant.

[mr.morrison]

sorry, didnt read the whole post, but, do you think history should be a mandatory high school class? A friend of mine brought this argument (roughly) up a few weeks ago: Science and math and english, in the sense that it teaches writing, are all relevant to what's going on every day. History, though, deals with the past, and is only really needed by politicians and historians, etc. So, like, say, fencing or Latin, it may be fun to learn, but useless in the long run for most people.

I disagree, but I'm wondering what people here say to that argument. It went something like that.
if only politicians were taight history, then they would tell us things that never happened and would lie and manipulate us more. an we would believe them because we dont know any better.

[SLammon420]

no, i meant that they diddt have a civilization not because of the wars, but because of the fact that they only had like 20 people per tribe. dont be an idiot, you knew what i meant.

You obviously don't know much about other parts of the world. Kenya isn't all 20 person tribes.

[MikeE]

Classical Greece left written records. I am unaware of Kenyan records from the same period. (If I am wrong about that, I would like to know.)
That is probably part of the reason that Greek history is more widely taught than Kenyan.

[mr.morrison]

You obviously don't know much about other parts of the world. Kenya isn't all 20 person tribes.
kenya isnt now but in the ancient world it was. there is a difference between civilization and culture. kenya had a culture like everyone in the world did. but they did not have a civilization

[MikeE]

I've heard of ancient sub-Saharan African civilizations, but no details (like where the cities were/are.) Does anyone have any more info.

[demosthenes]

Classical Greece left written records. I am unaware of Kenyan records from the same period. (If I am wrong about that, I would like to know.)
That is probably part of the reason that Greek history is more widely taught than Kenyan. My point exactly. You are 'unaware' of the Story of Kenya from the same time, and your impressions of Greece are all hearsay.

WWII history? I'm choking on my cigarette! Will they tell us in high school that Granpa Bush funded the Nazis? Or will they just tell us that for the Supreme Cause of Good and Righteousness the Americans joined the fray, fended off the ugly Germans and gave those Japanese what-for?

My initial point was that most of what is called 'history' is untrue, or at least shown from a very particular point-of-view. For another example, many people believe that Egyptians are Arabs. Not in Egypt, though! They ( maintain that they are Egyptians, and that Arabic peoples come from the Sinai and points North. So whose history is correct?

[Megara]

My point exactly. You are 'unaware' of the Story of Kenya from the same time, and your impressions of Greece are all hearsay. Um, all hearsay? yes well over a hundred years of excavations and THOUSANDS of literay/political/economic/etc works...'hearsay.' Lets not confuse the Trojan War without actual history.

WWII history? I'm choking on my cigarette! Will they tell us in high school that Granpa Bush funded the Nazis? Or will they just tell us that for the Supreme Cause of Good and Righteousness the Americans joined the fray, fended off the ugly Germans and gave those Japanese what-for? Arent we already? you know about it.

My initial point was that most of what is called 'history' is untrue, or at least shown from a very particular point-of-view. For another example, many people believe that Egyptians are Arabs. Not in Egypt, though! They ( maintain that they are Egyptians, and that Arabic peoples come from the Sinai and points North. So whose history is correct? Just because history maybe one sided does not make it untrue. To dismiss it as such shows your stupidity and not those who read history. Written history + achaelogical evidence(in the case of the greeks and others) has helped us determine what is true and false in many, many cases.


it is sad that you use the name demosthenes and you are 1) ridiculing history, 2) know jack shit about history and how to use it.

[Nimrod's Apprentice]

They dont tell us the same organizations behind the Third Reich, rule Israel too.
NEither do they tell us the holocaust was first thought of and funded by Zionists as a means to have an excuse to setup Israel, and eventually rebuild the temple. Not by the Israelites but by these occult satanists that jumped aboard Judaism because of its belief in a coming Moschiah. Or messianic age. Thus using it as a viable method for mass mind control, via the New World Order. Most jews know that Zionism isn't Jewish. Most jews know the star of david is really the seal of solomon. Which is an occult symbol capable of harnessing an army of Jinn for mass slavery. Granting he who is in control a "sorcerer esque" status. This is not the religion of Abraham, Noah or moses. But instead the babylonian and Egyptian priesthoods.

[demosthenes]

it is sad that you use the name demosthenes and you are 1) ridiculing history, 2) know jack shit about history and how to use it. That's very eloquent of you. Nice to see intelligent discussion alive and well in the public Forum.

I knew Jack Shit....Jack Shit was a friend of mine.....and you, Megara...
Ah, never mind.http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif
Efharisho!

[Megara]

well, i am no demosthenes...

[themnax]

everything that is wrong with this world today began with sparta and then rome and then christianity being militant and reactionary because of rome. (the fallowers of mohammid had an opportunity to do better, but they blew it too).

so yes we DO need to study other paths. how they avoided, the pitfals of the main stream of the history of what is dominant today, even if they did eventualy secumb to it. and we need to this as much or more then greece and rome and 'america', other then to learn how they screwed up and how to avoid doing so.

greece, rome, and america, just had luckier dice rolls, that is the ONLY 'superiority' that has led to their dominance.

=^^=
.../\...

[Megara]

everything that is wrong with this world today began with sparta and then rome and then christianity being militant and reactionary because of rome. (the fallowers of mohammid had an opportunity to do better, but they blew it too).

so yes we DO need to study other paths. how they avoided, the pitfals of the main stream of the history of what is dominant today, even if they did eventualy secumb to it. and we need to this as much or more then greece and rome and 'america', other then to learn how they screwed up and how to avoid doing so.

greece, rome, and america, just had luckier dice rolls, that is the ONLY 'superiority' that has led to their dominance.

=^^=
.../\...
this could be the saddest thing i've ever read.

[themnax]

kenya isnt now but in the ancient world it was. there is a difference between civilization and culture. kenya had a culture like everyone in the world did. but they did not have a civilization

civilization is something NO PLACE on planet earth has EVER had yet!

unless you use the word in the origional roman meaning of simply a political hierarchy that had and or was based in, one or more cities.

=^^=
.../\...

[SageDreamer]

The problem with history is that it was written by the winners of the wars. We get one side of the story, and maybe two or three if we make the effort and do more reading, but we never get the whole story.

Even what little bit we do get can teach us about the mistakes humans have made in the past. I'm not saying that we should believe everything we read, but I think it's an equal mistake to throw it all out.

I would steer you to A People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn. It might offer a nice counterpoint to the view of history many American HipForum folks got in school.