Do you use opiates to self-medicate your depression?

[Rearden Metal]

I'm sure this thread will change a few lives for the better...

Buprenorphine: The Holy Grail of depression treatment

Did the inner torment of depression drive you into an opiate addiction? You're not alone. Zoloft, Paxil, Lexapro, Effexor, Wellbutrin, Ativan, Xanax, Klonopin... You've tried two or three of these. They were supposed to help you feel better- but you just didn't! Opiates, and only opiates could ever quell your inner torment. Sound familiar? Read on, and you'll understand the science behind your instinctive opiate use.

Depression can result from a deficiency/over reuptake of serotonin, norepinephrine, or dopamine.
Depression can also result from a deficiency /over reuptake of your endogenous opioids (endorphins/dynorphins/enkephalins).

While common medical orthodoxy remains for some reason stuck on seratonin/norepinephrine/dopamine over-reuptake as the standard cause of nearly all depression, reality says otherwise. Every person has naturally occurring chemicals in their brain called endogenous opioids. They are endorphins, dynorphins and enkephalins. These endogenous opioids are very properly named, as they are (molecularly) nearly identical to real opioids like heroin or oxy. Some people have a natural deficiency of these vital chemicals, and have no choice but to consume opioids from an external source in order to feel 'normal'.


This is from the website of an American clinic with branches in three cities:
( http://www.thepainmanagementcenter.com/english/buprenorphine/clinical.htm )

"Underproduction or over-removal (severe re-uptake) of these endogenous opioids can be the cause of many psychiatric disorders ranging from Bipolar Personality disorders to major depressive disorders that often times manifest themselves in severe drug abuse. Unbeknownst to them, these patients use opioid medications either illicit or pharmaceutical because they are compelled to attempt to replace the endorphins, dynorphins, and enkephalins (endogenous opioids) that naturally occur in their systems at insufficient levels."

A clinical trial conducted at Harvard Medical School in 1995
( http://www.drugbuyers.com/freeboard/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=196682 )
demonstrated that a majority of treatment-refractory, unipolar, nonpsychotic, major depression patients could be successfully treated with Buprenorphine, even after dozens of other (non-opioid) medications had failed to provide these patients with any measure of relief. Currently, governmental prohibition laws prohibit the overt use of buprenorphine as an antidepressant in the United States. If you suffer from this condition, your physician isn't going to tell you to urgently seek out opiates- let alone prescribe any. While many doctors are aware of the fact that numerous refractory depression patients can only be helped by opioids, an M.D. could lose his license, assets, and freedom by trying to save your life. If you lack the knowledge that opioids can help you- or simply lack a contact to score opioids illegally, you'll likely suffer a miserable, suicidal existence. Notch up another brilliant success in the government's 'War On Drugs'.

Fortunately, there's a way out. It's even technically legal. Buprenorphine has been proven to be highly effective in treating refractory depression resulting from an endogenous opioid deficiency.
In order to prescribe it, an M.D. must first obtain special permission from the prohibition enforcement goons. But once he/she undergoes an 8-hour training course and files the necessary paperwork with the ruling regime, a doctor can prescribe buprenorphine pills to 'treat an opiate addiction problem'... Even if you don't really have one. For many, an oxycontin dependency isn't a problem they need to overcome, but rather a solution to the nightmare of major refractory depression which plagues them every waking hour. However, buprenorphine is safer, cheaper, and far more easily obtained than other opioids- and it works. Buprenorphine partially binds to your µ- opioid receptor, which could just be all you really need to eliminate those feelings of crippling depression.

In order to find scientific papers and other evidence of the endogenous opioids-depression-opioids connection, you can visit the only web site I know of, which is solely devoted to this cause:

http://www.opioids.com (http://www.opioids.com/)

[adrian nor]

Try to get endorphines through chicks or dicks! THAT's an anti-depressant. Also try to fix your life and become more outgoing..... If that doesn't work, buprenorphine would be great. But keep in mind that opiates/-oids may lower your body's natural opoid-production!!

[Eugene]

Go run a coupla miles and tell me your body is underproducing endorphins.

[Maggie Sugar]

Doesn't matter to people whose bodies simply do not produce enough endorphins. They can run all they like, the chemical uptake mechanisms just aren't there in enough quantity in some people.

Many many depressed people, especially those with chronic pain issues simply don't produce enough endorphin. Makes no difference if they exercise or not. It's kinda like telling a diabetic "Just eat less sugar, and your blood sugar will be fine. MINE is. I don''t know why YOU need that insulin."

[IronGoth]

Are you trying to tell me that heroin is theraputic?

Jesus Christ, all we need now is "medical heroin".

[Maggie Sugar]

Theraputic for pain. Eventually regular opiates may increase depression.
Buprenorphine is not herion, nor is it a regular opiate.

In England herion is not only available for addicts, to keep them functional (and it works, because, they no longer get high on it, and they aren't wasting their time and money scoring) but is used as a strong pain killer as well. People with severe pain, cancer pain ect do better on H than on Morphine or fentanyl, which is what is used in the USA.

[Eugene]

I apologize for my above post, i was feeling really bitchy that day. Remeber kids: Don't bost when emotionally engaged.

[Rearden Metal]

Thanx Maggie. It was your posts that encouraged me to provide more information.

IronGoth, you probably don't question the fact that hydromorphone (Dilaudid) has legitimate medical uses, as it can be legally prescribed. The difference between hydromorphone and heroin? The former is 4 times stronger, while the latter has been prohibited on the whims of politicians. However, with today's pharmacological advancements, there's no need for heroin to be used as an antidepressant. Buprenorphine is safer for many reasons.


Here you can see one clinical depression patient after another come forward to declare bupe (or opioids in general) to be the only effective antidepressant medication they've ever found:

http://www.naabt.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=114

More:

http://www.naabt.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=366

http://www.naabt.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=462

http://www.naabt.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=468


Every year, over 30,000 depressed Americans commit suicide. The fate of millions of additional depression patients is far worse - they live. Many tried seeking medical treatment, but were given the same old crappy serotonin/dopamine/norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor based products. No opioids. Buprenorphine could have saved them, but ignorance killed them.

[Maggie Sugar]

One more thing, pain, both severe and chronic can and will CAUSE depression. I was treated for depression for years, when the problem was that I was in FREAKIN PAIN all the time. Treating the pain, after more than 20 years of other forms of "treatment" (none of which addressed the pain directly) a neurologist and I decided to treat the pain directly, and the pain and the depression are under some control. For now.

[Night_Owl49]

Go run a coupla miles and tell me your body is underproducing endorphins.
more like 5 or 6 miles...http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

[StonerBill]

considering the fact that deficiency of opiods can result in death, whereas dificiency in those other neurotransmitters will result in debilitated state of mind, i strongly doubt that difficiency of opiods is a leading cause of depression. in fact, its ridiculous. opiods make very depressed people happy because they make everyone happy. opiate happiness is beyond the range of emotions people feel normally. endorphins are released when damage is done in the body, theyre not integral in day to day thought and emotion, like dopamine, serotonin, and noradrenalin are.

if depression was caused by lack of opiates, then these depressed people would be more than just depressed.. and considering people have whole ranges of depression, a depression caused by opiate difficiency could lead to someone hospitalised and given pain killers, after which they would miraculously turn back to normal and the doctors would pick up on it.

instead, the only people advocating this idea are depressed opiate addicts who want to believe that their use is justified.

the mind just doesnt work like most people would like to think.

that said, theres always a possibility. but to suggest that an opioid defficiency is widespread/common/in the same boat as the functional chemicals dopamine/serotonin... well lets just say you would have to be a team of research scientists confirming data from many previous research scientists from around the world. after making this claim, you could only be taken seriously if you didnt get high off opiates.
(but felt 'normal'. this does not include opiate addicts who obviously will feel bad without their opiates, and need some to feel normal.. but take more to feel gooood just for the fuck of it)

[JayBird]

This reminds me of a documentary I saw years ago on one of the cable science channels. Basically, dopamine and endorphins are a chemical "rewards" your brain gives you every time you do something that furthers your survival. For example, you spend a day out in the hot summer weather working your ass off, your mouth and throat are dry as sand paper. You go inside and take a big gulp of cold water. Feels good, doesn't it? Your brain gets a spurt of these chemicals that make you feel good to reinforce that type of behavior. They went on to postulate that these chemicals, esp. endorphins, are a part of bulemia. Vomiting is a survival mechanism. When you vomit, you feel better afterwards, usually. Because you've been given a burst of endorphins. So some people become addicted to it, and puke all the time. To the point that ANY food in the stomach is misinterpreted by the brain as poisoning. Well, that's one theory, anyway. Self image plays a role as well.

[StonerBill]

you get endorphins when you exercise becuase youre destroying muscle fibres, which your brain interprets as an injury. not because exercise is good for you.

[Rearden Metal]

StonerBill, regular buprenorphine users never get high from it. That's the only reason the government is far less restrictive regarding this particular opioid in the first place.


Check your premises, because they're all wrong.

http://www.naabt.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=114

Note: Suboxone & Subutex, aka 'sub', is the U.S. brand name for buprenorphine.

Posted by leeglegle (http://www.naabt.org/forum/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=204): Finally, I found a Sub doc and my addiction instantly disappeared AS DID MY DEPRESSION! I still take 10 mgs/day of Suboxone and will for the rest of my life. It is my "insulin". The disappearance of depression was even more significant for me than was the relief from addiction. I had been an addict for 7-8 yrs., but a depressive for thirty or more years.


Posted by Jake (http://www.naabt.org/forum/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=2):

I had depression for years. I could quit drugs and go through the withdrawal, but it was the depression that would eventually get the best of me and draw me back into addiction. I was self medicating with opiates to fight my depression. Once I began Buprenorphine my depression vanished. I was down to 2mg for a while with still no depression and its been a couple months since I stopped Suboxone and still no depression. Its almost like whatever wasn’t working before was fixed by the Suboxone.

Posted by gwen (http://www.naabt.org/forum/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=6) : i started bupe in june and have noticed that it is also helping my depression (connected to my addiction to Oxys). i had been prescribed different anti-depressants off and on over the years, but nothing worked as well as the bupe is working.


Posted by spanky (http://www.naabt.org/forum/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=119): I was on prozac for about 4 years prior to starting on Bupe for anixity and mild depression.Since I started on Bupe however I have been able to discontinue the prozac without any troubles.I feel wonderful and like you will most likely be on it for awhile if not forever.The book you're writting is a wonderful thing ,maybe it will open the eyes of those in power to make this drug more available for the many who still suffer.I can honestly say that if not for the Bupe I'd be either using again or dead by my own hand cause I honestly couldn't stand the misery I was dealing with.By the grace of God I found this forum and this drug and I and my life are so much better for it.

Posted by natasha (http://www.naabt.org/forum/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=341): Anyway, my reason for posting is to let you know that I, too, had major depression and that I was self-medicating for years with hydrocodone. That is until I finally got on suboxone. That was in March of 2004. I am still taking 8 mgs. every morning. I also take Effexor 150 mg. This seems to be the magic combo for me. I am happy and enjoying life. Can't begin to describe the "before" for you, but I'm sure you can imagine. Every time I tried to get off the opiates, I just got soooo depressed, didn't want to live, and just didn't know why. I had been on antidepressants before, but nothing worked as well as the two meds together.


Posted by connieZ (http://www.naabt.org/forum/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=360): This past September I went to rehab for my third time they gave me suboxen. Within minutes I felt normal I could'nt believe it no more depression what a miracle. I left detox and immediately felt like s***. A friend of mine told about a doc who prescribed suboxen I got an appointment immediately. I started taking the suboxen and again felt normal it's been two months now and have never felt better.


Posted by SomeDayBFree (http://www.naabt.org/forum/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=261): My first experience with Suboxone began in May 2004 and the relief I received from nearly life long resistant depression was simply miraculous. I was at my best taking 4mg per day. That was better than at 6mg and better than at 2mg. Unfortunately, due to my own internally placed pressures, I opted to stop taking it and began a slow wean and finally ceased in March 2005. The depression returned fairly quickly(no surprise...) and I relapsed a few weeks later. This relapse was relatively short, but "hard and heavy." Much more so (nearly 3 times more) than my previous 3 or so years of abuse. When I returned to Sub in early November, my intent was to do a short detox only - then I found this site along with significantly more data on the drug than I had been able to find previously. I also learned that a significant number of other people as well, were finding relief from serious depression by using Suboxone.



Posted by rac1210 (http://www.naabt.org/forum/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=138):
I am amazed the level of intelligence at this forum. I read the post by others at these sites and realize how many people have suffered due to the ignorance and arrogance of the medical community. I read years ago a study done in England that showed Buprenorphine to be effective in treating depression and now I am convinced that there is clearly a place for this drug in not only dealing with opioid dependency but also refractory depression. The proof is in the pudding...look at the folks on this site who have suffered for years with depression ultimately leading ot opioid addiction and all its negative consequences and then suddenly started Sub and now are functioning, happy, productive individuals who have regained the joy of living.





Posted by dan sewell (http://www.naabt.org/forum/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=401) : Twenty plus rehabs and institutionalizations....All in the name of addiction. Extended "vacations" at the Gray Bar Inn as a result of "criminal" activity ( I'm a good person, my crimes all drug related, not stealing or violent).Scores of Psychiatrists and counselors. Years in and out of the smoke filled rooms of AA/NA. Attempts to find religion, self help books, new age/ old age philosophies. Every known combination of psychotropic drug known to man.So many failed attempts, when I've had the best intentions of remaining clean. Any of this sound familiar???
What I've finally come to realize is that my depression drives my addiction, a fact that I have had to force down the throats of those who supposedly know about addiction. Every damn one of them has worked on the premise that everything would be dandy when I stopped using, and then some counseling and a dash of antidepressants to fix me. It just hasn't worked, depression leads me right back to the strong stuff.
The closest non-addictive drug that has worked is Wellbutrin, but has still paled in comparison to Suboxone.I am only taking 1-2 mg(I say 1-2 because I have to divide an 8mg pill in order to stretch out my limited supply) of Suboxone daily, and even skip days because of it's long lasting effect.Technically I'm (my doc knows Im taking less than prescribed) "detoxing" but figure I'll be coming off the stuff for as long as I can figure out a way to keep a supply.Is this abusing a medication? Am I a criminal? I don't even feel the Sub as much as 90% of the antidepressants I've used in the past. I feel like I can actually function and be a productive member of society--something that has not even been an option for soooo long.




____________

I could show another hundred of these. Would you care to try explaining to all of these people why they're wrong and you know better?

[BoozeJockey]

Look at stonerbill using big words when he doesn't even know why it's hard to make LSD...

First of all, your body has no opiods of it's own, in fact there aren't any in nature either. Opiods are synthetically altered OPIATES. That being said, your body doesn't make opiates either...

I don't have a problem with the idea that opiates/opiods can help depression. Depression can be caused by low levels of some neurotransmitters. While the exact action of opiates is not known, it is commonly accepted that they act by causing the release of dopamine (a neurotransmitter). Many anti-depressants (SSRI) work by in effect causing higher levels of seratonin (a neurotransmitter). Why manipulating dopamine is the worst thing in the world but messing with seratonin is ok is beyond me.

As for the possibility of people feeling pleasure while on opiate therapy for depression...i really don't care, that's a stupid point. If someone feels happy and they aren't hurting anyone else (which they wouldn't if the drugs were prescribed to them), then who cares if they feel pleasure or not?

[Rearden Metal]

Before I begin, I need to point out that even most physicians are ignorant regarding the vital role of the endogenous opioids, and how they relate to depression. Therefore, nobody should feel ashamed in the slightest, when I point out any inaccuracies in your medical knowledge. I teach doctors about opioids & depression- not the other way around.

First of all, your body has no opiods of it's own, in fact there aren't any in nature either. Opiods are synthetically altered OPIATES.

-------> Hi BoozeJockey, just to clarify: Endorphins are the most well known of the endogenous opioids- which are the body's own natural opioid-like peptides. While not exactly opioid substances, they are molecularly nearly identical to real opioids like oxy or fent. Your body's own endorphins have 48 times the analgesic potency of heroin.

I don't have a problem with the idea that opiates/opiods can help depression.

----> Cool. As soon as society catches up with us, much needless suffering will finally be prevented

Depression can be caused by low levels of some neurotransmitters. While the exact action of opiates is not known, it is commonly accepted that they act by causing the release of dopamine (a neurotransmitter).

--------> Correct, but more important than the dopamine release, is the fact that opioids activate the body's opioid receptors. Understand that effexor and wellbutrin also help boost dopamine levels. What they cannot do, is activate the opioid receptors. Some people find no depression relief from effexor/wellbutrin, while full or partial agonist opioids do precipitate depression relief. The difference, again, is activation of the opioid receptors.

Many anti-depressants (SSRI) work by in effect causing higher levels of seratonin (a neurotransmitter). Why manipulating dopamine is the worst thing in the world but messing with seratonin is ok is beyond me.

------> Practically all of today's accepted antidepressants boost serotonin levels. The second sentence is inaccurate, as effexor/welbutrin do manipulate dopamine levels.


As for the possibility of people feeling pleasure while on opiate therapy for depression...i really don't care, that's a stupid point. If someone feels happy and they aren't hurting anyone else (which they wouldn't if the drugs were prescribed to them), then who cares if they feel pleasure or not?

-------> ...and that is the sad irony of the drug prohibition laws. Compare LSD to datura: Possession of large quantities of the former will subject you to an even harsher punishment than that received by most child molesters! Possession of the latter is technically legal. The difference? While both are powerful hallucinogens, LSD produces euphoria, while datura does not. Politicians and prohibition enforcement thugs are directly punishing pleasure.
MDMA was banned for one reason only: People were enjoying it. There were no known health risks associated with ecstasy use, but there are now... thanks to the prohibition laws. By driving MDMA underground, a very similar but far more dangerous chemical called MDA is now commonly sold as 'ecstasy'. MDA is not MDMA. MDA messes up the body's ability to cool itself, and MDA kills kids all the time now.

[Eugene]

I could show another hundred of these. Would you care to try explaining to all of these people why they're wrong and you know better?The plural of anecdote is not data.

[Rearden Metal]

The plural of anecdote is not data.
You want scientific data? Here you go:

http://www.drugbuyers.com/freeboard/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=196682

http://opioids.com/cogmood/antidepressant.html

http://opioids.com/enkephalinase/lhelplessness.html

http://opioids.com/naloxone/depcrf.html

http://opioids.com/enkephalinase/index.html

http://opioids.com/cogmood/index.html

http://opioids.com/codeine/index.html

http://opioids.com/codeine/index.html

There's really no need to resist the knowledge I'm trying to share. I'm only trying to help people.

[StonerBill]

before i reply, can you please show to me a source which says how this stuff effects sober people?

it appears that you didnt understand what I meant anyway, since the fact that someone doesnt get high off the drug doesnt mean theyre difficient in what te drug stimulates, but it means that the drugs effects are such that it does not stimulate euphoria. IF indeed it brought depressed people to a normal state simply because they were difficient, then non-depressed people would get high from the effects of the drug. but it seems this is not the case.

so show us which site talks about the pharmacology of the Sub, and also a site that references the effects of the Sub on non-depressed people. maybe then, you can show me exactly how my premises are wrong.

as for boozejockey, stop before you make a fool of yourself by trying to make a fool of me. opiates do not simply 'stimulate dopamine'. Amphetamines and cocaine stimulate dopamine. do you think teh effects of either drugs are in any way similar?

As for the possibility of people feeling pleasure while on opiate therapy for depression...i really don't care, that's a stupid point. If someone feels happy and they aren't hurting anyone else (which they wouldn't if the drugs were prescribed to them), then who cares if they feel pleasure or not?
first, why do you think anyone cares what you 'care' about? what you care about does not have any relevance to the validility of data. along with this, whats the problem with people simply sitting around injecting heroin all day? theyre not hurting anyone!
whats the problem with nondepressed people taking opiates and feelign good? theyre not hurting anyone!
whats the problem with someone slowly drifting to sleep and never waking up again?

THEYRE NOT HURTING ANYONE!


as for using words you dont know about,
(opi·oid) (o¢pe-oid) 1. any synthetic narcotic that has opiate-like activities but is not derived from opium. 2. any of a group of naturally occurring peptides that bind at or otherwise influence opiate receptors of cell membranes; they may have either opiate-like or opiate antagonist effects. They include the dynorphins, endorphins, and enkephalins.

next time you go reading a dictionary, read a whole entry. duh

[Rearden Metal]

Bill, when taken by opiate naive individuals, a euphoric high is possible.
Erowid vault: http://www.erowid.org/pharms/buprenorphine/buprenorphine.shtml

When taken regularly, There is no high at all. (Although rare exceptions may or may not exist). How this proves or disproves my points is beyond me. If you don't already know where to look up the pharmacology, you wouldn't understand the data if I showed it to you.

[StonerBill]

none of those reports showed euphoria, they all reported the same thing - drop in anxiety and worries, feeling plain pleasant. it seems to do this for everyone. thus it is an opiate with a ceiling effect. this merely makes it viable for therapudic use without the same abuse potential. doesnt suggest in ANY way that deprression these people may or may not have experienced was due to opioid difficiency, merely that this drug is good for combating depression without leading to opiate euphoria.

go on, dont hold anything back. i doubt you could show me anything i couldnt understand. im just not going to sift through the same old shit for some pharmacological reference here or there.

[BoozeJockey]

Here's an study i found on this subject. I'm not going to post the full text, i'll post the reference and abstract:



J Clin Psychopharmacol. 1995 Feb;15(1):49-57.


Buprenorphine treatment of refractory depression.

Bodkin JA, Zornberg GL, Lukas SE, Cole JO.

McLean Hospital, Consolidated Department of Psychiatry, Harvard Medical School, Belmont, MA 02178, USA.

Opiates were used to treat major depression until the mid-1950s. The advent of opioids with mixed agonist-antagonist or partial agonist activity, with reduced dependence and abuse liabilities, has made possible the reevaluation of opioids for this indication. This is of potential importance for the population of depressed patients who are unresponsive to or intolerant of conventional antidepressant agents. Ten subjects with treatment-refractory, unipolar, nonpsychotic, major depression were treated with the opioid partial agonist buprenorphine in an open-label study. Three subjects were unable to tolerate more than two doses because of side effects including malaise, nausea, and dysphoria. The remaining seven completed 4 to 6 weeks of treatment and as a group showed clinically striking improvement in both subjective and objective measures of depression. Much of this improvement was observed by the end of 1 week of treatment and persisted throughout the trial. Four subjects achieved complete remission of symptoms by the end of the trial (Hamilton Rating Scale for Depression scores < or = 6), two were moderately improved, and one deteriorated. These findings suggest a possible role for buprenorphine in treating refractory depression.

[StonerBill]

once again, this doesnt suggest in any way that their depression was caused by an inherit difficiency in opioids

[Peter Popper]

im definatly not an opiate person, sure i love the feeling. but i hate the "downing" effects. life is for living, therefore stimulants make you feel great, happy, confident, clear headed, and make you whant to make somthing of your life. on speed its like your more alive then youve ever been before. i love it. im sick of feelign out of it from weed and shit.


any one taken 250mg or more of codeine (or other opiate), smoked an incredible amount of weed, within like 12-20 hours of takein xtc. there is somthing sooo amazing about that. there was no more heaven literaly than what that was like... (but not on xtc, after)

repeating this method above at later times isnt even barely comparible without the aftereffects of mdma.

[BoozeJockey]

Um stoner bill, of course depression can't be caused by an "inherit difficiency in opiods". Incase you didn't read my first post, YOUR BODY DOES NOT MAKE ANY OPIODS/OPIATES OF IT'S OWN. I'm talking about them being used as a treatment for depression...Lol, let me guess Prozac works for depression because your body has "an inherit difficiency" of Prozac right? NO, prozac works by manipulating neurotransmitter levels, and guess what? Opiods/opiates cause changes in neurotransmitter levels too, hmm...

[StonerBill]

if youd read the posts following, you would see that you were corrected, seeing as opiod refers to any chemical which stimulates opiod receptors. such as heroin. or endorphins.

opiates do not prevent reuptake of endorphins, nor to they stimulate the release of endorphins. they mimic endorphins. it would be like injecting a drug that mimics serotonin into your brain. your body DOES make these endorphins, and the WHOLE POINT OF THIS THREAD is the possibility that forms of depression are caused when the body has some inability to make enough natural opiods.

take a stance in the arguement man, sure, but dont go makin shit up

[BoozeJockey]

My mistake on your definition of opiod.



And actually, endorphin is not a chemical formulation, it refers to a chemical action.

And, i will repeat, my interest is in treating depression with opioids/opiates, not what causes depression.

But, I found this abstract though that clearly states depression is an "endorphin deficiency disease".


Acupunct Electrother Res. 1982;7(2-3):157-72.
D-phenylalanine and other enkephalinase inhibitors as pharmacological agents: implications for some important therapeutic application.

Ehrenpreis S.

A number of compounds have been shown to inhibit the degradation of enkephalins. As expected, these compounds produce naloxone reversible analgesia and potentiate the analgesia produced by enkephalins and by acupuncture. One of these, D-phenylalanine, is also anti-inflammatory. D-phenylalanine has proven to be beneficial in many human patients with chronic, intractable pain. It is proposed the enkephalinase inhibitors may be effective in a number of human "endorphin deficiency diseases" such as depression, schizophrenia, convulsive disorders and arthritis. Such compounds may alleviate other conditions associated with decreased endorphin levels such as opiate withdrawal symptoms.


I can't get the full text online so i can't paste it, but i'm pretty sure that if that is stated in a scholarly journal, then it is more true than what "stoner bill" says.

If you actually look, there is lots of research that links low endorphin levels to depression. I don't have time to be doing research on this plus my own reasearch just in order to educate you, so stonerbill since you think there is NO evidence at all, if you actually do some reasearch on your own you'll find otherwise... To be fair, there is some research that also says there is no direct link between endorphins and depression. BUT, stonerbill, you said there was NO evidence that endorphin deficiency caused depression, and that is just plain not true. The exact cause of depression is NOT KNOWN, and endorphin deficiency very well may be a part of it.

[BoozeJockey]

Oh, and here's an abstract i found that downright refutes your claim that there is no evidence that depression can be caused by endogenous endorphin/opioid deficiences:


TITLE: The effect of naloxone on adrenocorticotropin and cortisol release: Evidence for a reduced response in depression
AUTHOR, EDITOR, INVENTOR: Burnett,-Frances-E [Reprint-author]; Scott,-Lucinda-V [Author]; Weaver,-Mark-G [Author]; Medbak,-Sami-H [Author]; Dinan,-Timothy-G [Author]
SOURCE: Journal-of-Affective-Disorders. 1999; 53(3): 263-268
PUBLICATION YEAR: 1999
DOCUMENT TYPE: Article
ISSN (INTERNATIONAL STANDARD SERIAL NUMBER): 0165-0327
LANGUAGE: English
ABSTRACT: Background. Endogenous opioid peptides inhibit the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis by influencing the release of hypothalamic corticotropin releasing factors. This study examines whether increased activity of the HPA axis in major depression is associated with reduced opioid tone. Methods. We measured the adrenocorticotropin (ACTH) and cortisol responses to an intravenous bolus of naloxone 0.125 mug/kg in 13 depressed outpatients and 13 healthy volunteers. Results. The mean cortisol response was significantly reduced (P < 0.05), and the ACTH response was also non-significantly reduced in the depressed subjects. Conclusions. These findings imply that the degree of inhibitory endogenous opioid tone is reduced in depression. Various mechanisms for the finding are discussed, including possible alteration in the function of alpha-adrenergic pathways. Clinical implications. Reduced endogenous opioid tone may explain why some depressed individuals self-medicate with opiates, and depression is associated with opiate withdrawal. Opioid pathways may have a role in the mechanism of action of antidepressant drugs, and may be of relevance in the development of novel antidepressants.

[StonerBill]

i will have to look into the significance of cortisol and ACTH response in implying that people with depression are naturally opioid-difficient