What does it say in the bible about...

[peace_sells]

honouring your mother and father? my mum was... saying...? no, accusing me? yes of not respecting her and my dad and she told me i was going to be cursed because it says so in the bible.
What is the curse???????

By the way I was not dishonouring them at all, just humouring myself and they took the joke the wrong way... which is happening all too often. which is why i'm refraining from jokes to them

[cerridwen]

Um... I think it's a comandment? And there's a whole shpeal about it in the bible... tons of parables... it's an ongoing theme....

[peace_sells]

yes you are right :) but what is the curse spoken of :) thanks for your heeelp though

[Kharakov]

yes you are right :) but what is the curse spoken of :) thanks for your heeelp though
I'll tell you a part of it. If you don't honor your father and mother it means you have rejected the life they provided for you. You don't have to do it publicly however, its more of a thing that you know you turned out kick ass and they were part of it. Your parents were a gift given to you by God.

[Willeum]

You're supposed to honor your father and mother so that your days will be long upon the earth I believe.
So, I guess the curse of not honoring would be that your life would be shortened.

[peace_sells]

ah thankyou friends :)


Would you call me your friend?
even if I was a satanist?

Or would society reject me :( like they rejected jesus

[Willeum]

Society would reject you, definitely. Satanists don't have a good stigma in this day and society, or ever in any society, actually.

I would still be your friend though. But as a Satanist, you would most likely not be my friend... not as a principle, but because I am so consumed with the gospel of Jesus Christ, which releases us all from hatred.


ah Would you call me your friend?
even if I was a satanist?

Or would society reject me :( like they rejected jesus

[OlderWaterBrother]

There is no curse involved, unless you are reviling them. As it says in Ephesians it is the "first command with a promise". So while it doesn't say what will happen if you don't honor them, it does say what will happen if you do.

Here are the applicable Scriptures:

(Exodus 20:12) . . .“Honor your father and your mother in order that your days may prove long upon the ground that Jehovah your God is giving you.

(Deuteronomy 5:16) “‘Honor your father and your mother, just as Jehovah your God has commanded you; in order that your days may prove long and it may go well with you on the ground that Jehovah your God is giving you.

(Ephesians 6:2-3) 2 “Honor your father and [your] mother”; which is the first command with a promise: 3 “That it may go well with you and you may endure a long time on the earth.”

(Matthew 15:4) 4 For example, God said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘Let him that reviles father or mother end up in death.’

Here is what is meant by the word honor in the Bible;

HONOR
The principal Hebrew term denoting “honor” is ka·vohdh′, which literally means “heaviness.” (Compare the use of related terms in 1Sa 4:18 and 2Sa 14:26.) So a person who is honored is regarded as being weighty, or amounting to something. In Greek, the noun ti·me′ conveys the sense of “honor,” “esteem,” “value,” “preciousness.” Thus the verb ti·ma′o can also mean “set a price on” (Mt 27:9); the noun ti·me′ can have the sense of “price,” “value” (Mt 27:6; Ac 4:34); and the adjective ti′mi·os can mean “esteemed,” “dear, or valuable,” and “precious.”—Ac 5:34; 20:24; 1Co 3:12.

[OlderWaterBrother]

ah thankyou friends :)


Would you call me your friend?
even if I was a satanist? I don't know what you mean by Satanist but the Bible says that Christians should show love toward all but at the same time it says that bad associations spoil useful habits.

So, it would be a little like befriending a thief, yes you could be friends but you wouldn't want to drive him to a bank or leave him alone with your valuables. ;)

Or would society reject me :( like they rejected jesus Society may reject you for being a Satanist but it would not be for the same reasons it rejected Jesus. ;)

[honeyfugle]

ah thankyou friends :)


Would you call me your friend?
even if I was a satanist?

Or would society reject me :( like they rejected jesus
Satanists are generally not very well accepted in society. A lot of people tend to fear them. Not for the same reason Jesus was rejected though it must be added. But that would not make anyone less of a friend. I have a friend personally who was dabbling in La Vey Satanism, and all I could do was try and talk him out of it and prayed for him and eventually he decided against it.
A Christian should not reject a Satanist. To do so would be unbiblical, as we are taught that no-one is unworthy of help no matter how sinful they are. So, no Christians shouldn't reject or give up on someone because they are Satanists. Indeed, they are the people we should be working the hardest to try and help.

I think OWB did a good job in collecting the scriptures. There's no curse if you don't honour your parents but it is a requirement to do so. :)

[thedope]

There is no curse involved, unless you are reviling them. As it says in Ephesians it is the "first command with a promise". So while it doesn't say what will happen if you don't honor them, it does say what will happen if you do.

Here are the applicable Scriptures:

(Exodus 20:12) . . .“Honor your father and your mother in order that your days may prove long upon the ground that Jehovah your God is giving you.

(Deuteronomy 5:16) “‘Honor your father and your mother, just as Jehovah your God has commanded you; in order that your days may prove long and it may go well with you on the ground that Jehovah your God is giving you.

(Ephesians 6:2-3) 2 “Honor your father and [your] mother”; which is the first command with a promise: 3 “That it may go well with you and you may endure a long time on the earth.”

(Matthew 15:4) 4 For example, God said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘Let him that reviles father or mother end up in death.’

Here is what is meant by the word honor in the Bible;

HONOR
The principal Hebrew term denoting “honor” is ka·vohdh′, which literally means “heaviness.” (Compare the use of related terms in 1Sa 4:18 and 2Sa 14:26.) So a person who is honored is regarded as being weighty, or amounting to something. In Greek, the noun ti·me′ conveys the sense of “honor,” “esteem,” “value,” “preciousness.” Thus the verb ti·ma′o can also mean “set a price on” (Mt 27:9); the noun ti·me′ can have the sense of “price,” “value” (Mt 27:6; Ac 4:34); and the adjective ti′mi·os can mean “esteemed,” “dear, or valuable,” and “precious.”—Ac 5:34; 20:24; 1Co 3:12.

Being presented in conjunction with the suffix ,"go well on the ground", it is a singular statement, not a command and an additional promise. Father creator, Mother earth. It describes our relationship with our environment.

[OlderWaterBrother]

Being presented in conjunction with the suffix ,"go well on the ground", it is a singular statement, not a command and an additional promise. Father creator, Mother earth. It describes our relationship with our environment. You do just like to make it up as you go along.

Ephesians 6:2-3 Says: “Honor your father and [your] mother”; which is the first command with a promise: “That it may go well with you and you may endure a long time on the earth.”

I suppose you believe you understand the Bible better than the inspired Bible writer Paul but I think I'll go with what Paul has to say on the matter.

[OlderWaterBrother]

I think that "mother" and "father" in Biblical Scripture doesn't necessarily mean biological mothers and fathers; if your biological parents are trying to get you to do murder or other crimes I'm not sure they should be honored.


IANABIAP (I am not a believer in any prophet.) In a way you are correct when you say ""mother" and "father" in Biblical Scripture doesn't necessarily mean biological mothers and fathers", it does mean that but goes beyond that, because how we treat our parents is a refection of how we view God.

Also though, you should obey your parents, honor does not necessarily mean strict obedience. If your parents, as you mention ask you to murder, you have to obey God rather than "men".

But even then you should honor your parents even though they themselves may not be honorable. Because God asked you to and he is your "Father" and you should honor him.

[thedope]

r;6015571]You do just like to make it up as you go along.

Ephesians 6:2-3 Says: “Honor your father and [your] mother”; which is the first command with a promise: “That it may go well with you and you may endure a long time on the earth.”

I suppose you believe you understand the Bible better than the inspired Bible writer Paul but I think I'll go with what Paul has to say on the matter.

Paul was a zealot. There was much dissent then as there is now over who or what constitutes proper authority. God creates the everlasting, man attempts to emulate the everlasting through the establishment of tradition. "Which is the first command with a promise," is a colorizing remark. Paul was very much a believer in the hierarchical tradition. Paul's value to the establishment of the church was his inherent willingness to campaign across the length and breadth of the land for his cause. Paul changed alliance from preserving tradition to establishing a new tradition. Paul had a new model but he was still Paul.

Peter was shown to have progressed over time in his understanding. At one point vowing to defend Jesus, Jesus rebuked him. He denied Jesus three times before the cock crowed. He was shown that he should speak evil of no man.

Jesus himself can be seen to modify his own positions on a couple of occasions. One being on who his message was for, as in the case regarding the woman with the wise saying, even the dogs are allowed the crumbs from the table.

Jesus left two distinct yet complimentary legacies. One the church, which is a civic institution with the mandate of feeding and caring for the people. The other is sending down of the comforter or Holy Spirit as a guide to the abiding light.

My guide is the sure comfort of the Holy Spirit. Your guide by your own declaration is the writ of man, which is inherently controversial. You see Christ as yet to return, I see that Christ resides with us at this very moment.

I do not believe that I am more inspired than Paul. I can see that you and I are drawing on a different source. Do you examine what I say on the merit of what is being said or do you discard what is being said on the basis that it does not agree with your interpretation of what the bible says?

[OlderWaterBrother]

I'm not a Christian though lol...to each his own I guess.

IANABIAP (I am not a believer in any prophet.) So, does mean because you are not a Christian, you believe you shouldn't honor your parents?

[OlderWaterBrother]

Paul was a zealot. There was much dissent then as there is now over who or what constitutes proper authority. God creates the everlasting, man attempts to emulate the everlasting through the establishment of tradition. "Which is the first command with a promise," is a colorizing remark. Paul was very much a believer in the hierarchical tradition. Paul's value to the establishment of the church was his inherent willingness to campaign across the length and breadth of the land for his cause. Paul changed alliance from preserving tradition to establishing a new tradition. Paul had a new model but he was still Paul.
Peter was shown to have progressed over time in his understanding. At one point vowing to defend Jesus, Jesus rebuked him. He denied Jesus three times before the cock crowed. He was shown that he should speak evil of no man.
Jesus himself can be seen to modify his own positions on a couple of occasions. One being on who his message was for, as in the case regarding the woman with the wise saying, even the dogs are allowed the crumbs from the table.
Jesus left two distinct yet complimentary legacies. One the church, which is a civic institution with the mandate of feeding and caring for the people. The other is sending down of the comforter or Holy Spirit as a guide to the abiding light.
My guide is the sure comfort of the Holy Spirit. Your guide by your own declaration is the writ of man, which is inherently controversial. You see Christ as yet to return, I see that Christ resides with us at this very moment.
I do not believe that I am more inspired than Paul. I can see that you and I are drawing on a different source. Do you examine what I say on the merit of what is being said or do you discard what is being said on the basis that it does not agree with your interpretation of what the bible says?I discard what you say on many levels.

One is that you often disagree with what the bible directly says, In this case what you say is indirect opposition to what Paul said and that's without any "interpretation" of what Paul said.

Two, I also can see we are drawing on different sources. I draw on the Bible and you seem to be drawing on a source that is opposed to the Bible.

Three, for the most part you seem to be just making it up as you go along.

Four, when it is pointed out that what you have said deviates from God's inspired word, how do you handle it. You call into question those inspired writers. Even saying Jesus vacillated in what he had to say. Then you call the Bible man's word and not God's. Not the signs of a true prophet.

Five, with all of this in mind, I seems that you want to draw believers to yourself and your "New revelations", rather than to God and his word; personally, I'll stay with God and his Word the Bible. Thanx anyway. :D

[OlderWaterBrother]

I don't understand, sir. After my saying one should honor his parents, you said; "I'm not a Christian though lol...to each his own I guess."

I then asked; "So, does mean because you are not a Christian, you believe you shouldn't honor your parents?"

What part don't you understand?

EDIT - I guess you're asking me, because I'm not a Christian, do I believe that it's OK to dishonour parents?

Well sir, people are getting a little more personal than I care to get. Sometimes on a thread, I participate to exchange ideas, not to get personal with people about myself and themselves.

What in hell's hot heat are you asking me this for lol? You made a personal comment, "I'm not a Christian though" in response to a comment I made that you quoted and I'm just asking what that response means.

[OlderWaterBrother]

LOL. Well lol, since fighting's not allowed at HF, I'll just say that you are lying sir. You did not say "one should honor his parents," and I replied saying "I'm not a Christian though lol...to each his own I guess." You said:

"...But even then you should honor your parents even though they themselves may not be honorable. Because God asked you to and he is your 'Father' and you should honor him." Lying? Interesting. :D

Let's take a look and see.

If you'll notice the highlighted portions of your comment, it seems you may be the one telling an untruth. :D

I replied to this saying, "I'm not a Christian though lol...to each his own I guess." Obviously if you're telling me that "God is your Father" and I should obey the God of the Bible, it is clearly obvious to me that I should indicate to you that I am not a Christian... I was not telling you that you should obey the God of the Bible. We both in our comments used the term "in Biblical Scripture", that would indicate that we were talking about what the Bible says. Thus I was not telling you to do anything.

Now, it seems like you're doing a little game-playing here OlderWaterBrother lol. I wont be replying to you again because I'm not interested in game playing. Game playing? I asked a simple question, to clarify an answer you had made and it's taken you a half a dozen posts to answer. That seems like game playing to me but unlike you, I try not to comment on the motives of others.



No, that was not a personal comment. That was a comment addressing the fact that you told me that "God is your Father" and I should obey the God of the Bible. Once again, in that particular comment I was talking about what the Bible says and although I do believe that God is my father, I was not saying that "God is your Father" and you should obey the God of the Bible. I was saying that is what the Bible says.
It was a SCIENTIFIC comment for the purpose of clearing up any confusion about me that you were creating. SCIENTIFIC comment? A scientific comment would something like, studies have found most that most people don't agree with the bible but as soon as you say "I am" that means what follows is something personal about you, in this case, that you are not a Christian.

AS for creating any confusion about you, I was not even talking about you, except to say I thought your comment was only partially true, so how could I be creating any confusion about you?
I can't say how I personally feel about talking to you because fighting's not allowed at HF, but everything isn't always personal. I asked you a question to simply clarify your comment and you think that's an attempt to start a fight?

Everything isn't always personal? Then maybe you shouldn't take it that way.

Now as I said, I wont reply to you again due to disinterest in game-playing lol. Since I'm not "game playing" perhaps your "disinterest" is due to something else. :D

[thedope]

I discard what you say on many levels.

One is that you often disagree with what the bible directly says, In this case what you say is indirect opposition to what Paul said and that's without any "interpretation" of what Paul said.
I weigh the words of the bible, interpreting it with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. What you find me disagreeing with is not the bible, but your interpretation of it.
Actually I gave a concise interpretation of what Paul said. He adds a colorizing remark to the scripture as regards the command regarding father and mother. And can be farther demonstrated that he does so in direct contravention of what is stated by Jesus. Who are my family, those who do the will of my father. Call no man your father. I have come to set members of a family against one another. This is not an effort to destroy the fabric of society. He is making a distinction between the heavenly perception of the equal inheritance of divine brotherhood and the worldly hierarchical perception of unequally allied powers.


Two, I also can see we are drawing on different sources. I draw on the Bible and you seem to be drawing on a source that is opposed to the Bible.
I told you I draw on the Holy Spirit as my guide to interpreting the bible. Do you deny the Holy Spirit? I rely on the bible for the truth and accuracy it contains. I rely on the bible because it is true, not because I believe in it.

Three, for the most part you seem to be just making it up as you go along.
That would necessarily be the case for information you had never before. I teach as I am taught by the Holy Spirit.


Four, when it is pointed out that what you have said deviates from God's inspired word, how do you handle it. You call into question those inspired writers. Even saying Jesus vacillated in what he had to say. Then you call the Bible man's word and not God's. Not the signs of a true prophet.
You have not shown me to be a deviant from God's inspired words, but you have made the claim that I am uninspired. I make no claims to any stature, nor do I call you a demon.


Five, with all of this in mind, I seems that you want to draw believers to yourself and your "New revelations", rather than to God and his word; personally, I'll stay with God and his Word the Bible. Thanx anyway. :D
I was taught by my request a way forward from my perpetual struggle with, "sinful nature". There are many true seekers who have questions regarding their own faith and this is due to the many disparate voices as to what the "right way" is. This question regarding the rightness or wrongness of things requires us to use judgment or arbitration, which is antithetical to the command do not judge. There is another way to use our "power of discernment", answer the question is it true or is it false. Ask the question what is it for. Make the distinction as to whether it is the same or different.
This is what is meant by do not judge by appearances but rather use right judgment. I do not wish to draw believers to myself, only to lend comfort to those who are traveling.
I notice that you make no mention of Holy Spirit, is there a reason for that?

[HippiexChild]

You should try your best to obey your parents. We all sin. So its not possible to be perfect. That is why you repent, my friend, from all your wrong doings. :]

[def zeppelin]

You should try your best to obey your parents. We all sin. So its not possible to be perfect. That is why you repent, my friend, from all your wrong doings. :]


Even secularists believe that we are all guilty and movies like The Dark Knight and Unforgiven hint at the fact that we all miss the mark no matter how hard we try. But the point is to first recognize this and continue to do our best regardless. That's all God really asks of us; he knows we struggle and he struggles alongside of us.

[thedope]

Even secularists believe that we are all guilty and movies like The Dark Knight and Unforgiven hint at the fact that we all miss the mark no matter how hard we try. But the point is to first recognize this and continue to do our best regardless. That's all God really asks of us; he knows we struggle and he struggles alongside of us.

I find no fault in you and God recognizes his creations only as he created them.

[def zeppelin]

There is plenty of fault in me. It calms me to know this.

[thedope]

You should try your best to obey your parents. We all sin. So its not possible to be perfect. That is why you repent, my friend, from all your wrong doings. :]

It is not possible to be the way God created you? Repentance is not a hand wringing act of contrition. It is a reorientation of the senses. Whereas before we seek the pleasures of the senses and the fulfillment of appetites, we are now vigilant for only the truth. The kingdom of heaven is at hand means it is within our grasp and we obtain it through repentance and forgiveness. Forgive the world the judgments you have placed upon it and seek only God and his kingdom.

[thedope]

There is plenty of fault in me. It calms me to know this.

I too have felt relief to discover I had been mistaken. God is not mistaken in his creations. Be thankful however that you can be mistaken about yourself and your brother. A mistake can be corrected, the wages of sin are death. Would you choose for yourself and your brother what God neither gave you nor would want you to have. Given the choice of what you would unleash on the world, would it be Christ, innocence or Barabas, guilt? Forgiveness is yours to bestow and as you choose for yourself you also choose for your brother.

[OlderWaterBrother]

I weigh the words of the bible, interpreting it with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. What you find me disagreeing with is not the bible, but your interpretation of it. My interpretation? This is what Paul said: (Ephesians 6:2-3) 2 “Honor your father and [your] mother”; which is the first command with a promise: 3 “That it may go well with you and you may endure a long time on the earth.”
This is what Paul said not my interpretation of what he said but what he said.
This what you said:Being presented in conjunction with the suffix ,"go well on the ground", it is a singular statement, not a command and an additional promise. Father creator, Mother earth. It describes our relationship with our environment.
This is what you said not my interpretation of what you said but what you said.

What you say directly opposes what Paul said, Paul said; "the first command with a promise:",you said; not a command and an additional promise. Now you can call it my interpretation all you want but the simple truth is you are disagreeing with Paul and that makes you out of harmony with God and the Bible.

Actually I gave a concise interpretation of what Paul said. Now who is the one interpreting?
He adds a colorizing remark to the scripture as regards the command regarding father and mother. And can be farther demonstrated that he does so in direct contravention of what is stated by Jesus. Who are my family, those who do the will of my father. Call no man your father. I have come to set members of a family against one another. This is not an effort to destroy the fabric of society. He is making a distinction between the heavenly perception of the equal inheritance of divine brotherhood and the worldly hierarchical perception of unequally allied powers. He does so in direct contravention of what is stated by Jesus?
I don't think so.
To say so, as you do, means that you believe Paul was not inspired by God and that would also mean that you believe that parts of the Bible are not inspired of God.

I told you I draw on the Holy Spirit as my guide to interpreting the bible. Do you deny the Holy Spirit? I rely on the bible for the truth and accuracy it contains. I rely on the bible because it is true, not because I believe in it. I do not deny the Holy Spirit but the Spirit that guides you has told you that Paul contravenes what Jesus said but would mean the Holy Spirit either does not know what it's doing or that it inspired two different people to believe two different things or that the Spirit that guides you may not be the Holy Spirit

That would necessarily be the case for information you had never before. I teach as I am taught by the Holy Spirit. Again the Bible that was written under inspiration of Holy Spirit never sounds made up but the Spirit you are taught by makes you sound like you sre making it up all the time.


You have not shown me to be a deviant from God's inspired words, but you have made the claim that I am uninspired. I make no claims to any stature, nor do I call you a demon. Thanx for not calling me a demon, that's a big weight off my mind. :rolleyes:

As for not showing you to be deviant from God's inspired words, I believe I have well covered your disagreement with Paul.

Uninspired? I mostly wonder whether you realize who is really inspiring you.



I was taught by my request a way forward from my perpetual struggle with, "sinful nature". There are many true seekers who have questions regarding their own faith and this is due to the many disparate voices as to what the "right way" is. This question regarding the rightness or wrongness of things requires us to use judgment or arbitration, which is antithetical to the command do not judge. There is another way to use our "power of discernment", answer the question is it true or is it false. Ask the question what is it for. Make the distinction as to whether it is the same or different.
This is what is meant by do not judge by appearances but rather use right judgment. I do not wish to draw believers to myself, only to lend comfort to those who are traveling. What is it, "do not judge" or "use right judgment"?
I notice that you make no mention of Holy Spirit, is there a reason for that? Okay, How this for mentioning the Holy Spirit?

God grants a measure of holy spirit to his people to help them understand and accomplish his will. He grants his spirit to those who make a sincere, prayerful request, who have the right heart motivation, and who conform to his requirements. (1 Corinthians 2:10-16)

But that does not mean that God will use his Holy Spirit to teach us new things that are contradictory to what he has already written in his Word the Bible.

Is that what you had in mind or were you thinking of something else?

[OlderWaterBrother]

I find no fault in you and God recognizes his creations only as he created them. Just wondering, are you saying that God created us imperfect and sinful or are you saying something else?

[thedope]

My interpretation? This is what Paul said: (Ephesians 6:2-3) 2 “Honor your father and [your] mother”; which is the first command with a promise: 3 “That it may go well with you and you may endure a long time on the earth.”
This is what Paul said not my interpretation of what he said but what he said.
This what you said:
This is what you said not my interpretation of what you said but what you said.

[QUOTE]What you say directly opposes what Paul said, Paul said; "the first command with a promise:",you said; not a command and an additional promise. Now you can call it my interpretation all you want but the simple truth is you are disagreeing with Paul and that makes you out of harmony with God and the Bible.
What I was saying was that in Genesis it does not insert the words, "the first command with a promise." it is a running statement, that your days will be long in the land.
You accuse me of being out of harmony with God. Do you stand between God and me, my judge? Must I go through you to be acceptable to God?
I would like to point out to you that not once did Jesus say that he was giving to us an official reference guide to salvation called the bible. The bible and the official canons of the church, did not even exist as you know them for several hundred years after the death of Jesus.
I am a disciple of Christ, not of Paul or the church. The church, as the sabbath, was made for man, not man for the church.

Now who is the one interpreting?
He does so in direct contravention of what is stated by Jesus?
I don't think so.
elaborate?
To say so, as you do, means that you believe Paul was not inspired by God and that would also mean that you believe that parts of the Bible are not inspired of God.
I do not believe anything. I know that God is in all things.

I do not deny the Holy Spirit but the Spirit that guides you has told you that Paul contravenes what Jesus said but would mean the Holy Spirit either does not know what it's doing or that it inspired two different people to believe two different things or that the Spirit that guides you may not be the Holy Spirit
Who guides you in making this determination? Paul is Paul, he did what he did and said what he said. Paul had disagreements with others in his own time. Paul preformed the function he was to fulfill, to range the length and breadth the land to pursue his cause. My function is not the same.

Again the Bible that was written under inspiration of Holy Spirit never sounds made up but the Spirit you are taught by makes you sound like you are making it up all the time.
It is not my message and up to this point only a portion has been shared.



As for not showing you to be deviant from God's inspired words, I believe I have well covered your disagreement with Paul.
You have shown me only to have a disagreement with Paul's colorizing remark. You have denied my words as being improperly inspired.


God grants a measure of holy spirit to his people to help them understand and accomplish his will. He grants his spirit to those who make a sincere, prayerful request, who have the right heart motivation, and who conform to his requirements. (1 Corinthians 2:10-16)
Which is exactly the process that I described to you, that I undertook.
But that does not mean that God will use his Holy Spirit to teach us new things that are contradictory to what he has already written in his Word the Bible.
God didn't write the bible. You are giving this passage a meaning that is totally your own

[thedope]

I was taught by my request a way forward from my perpetual struggle with, "sinful nature". There are many true seekers who have questions regarding their own faith and this is due to the many disparate voices as to what the "right way" is. This question regarding the rightness or wrongness of things requires us to use judgment or arbitration, which is antithetical to the command do not judge. There is another way to use our "power of discernment", answer the question is it true or is it false. Ask the question what is it for. Make the distinction as to whether it is the same or different.

Jesus said both things. Do not judge lest you be judged and do not judge by appearances, but rather use right judgment.

The first "judgment" is good or evil, right or wrong. The second judgment is true or false. What is it for. Is it the same or is it different.

As far as mentioning the Holy Spirit. You quote scripture. That is not an acknowledgment of the Holy Spirit in you or anyone else.

[thedope]

Just wondering, are you saying that God created us imperfect and sinful or are you saying something else?

I'm saying that God created man in his own image and saw that it was very good. God creates that which is like himself. God does not create sinful nature, however man can believe himself to be less than God created and that is man's mistake, to miss the sign of God.

[OlderWaterBrother]

...
God didn't write the bible. ... I was going to touch on each of your points but this statement pretty much sums it up and is another reason you might want to check on that Spirit you say guides you, seeing as it's guiding you away from God's Word.

[OlderWaterBrother]

... As far as mentioning the Holy Spirit. You quote scripture. That is not an acknowledgment of the Holy Spirit in you or anyone else. The Scriptures are filled with Holy Spirit and Holy Spirit leads one toward the Bible not away from it. I acknowledge that you seem to have a Spirit but since it seems to lead you away from God's word, I would be careful if I were you.

[OlderWaterBrother]

I'm saying that God created man in his own image and saw that it was very good. God creates that which is like himself. God does not create sinful nature, however man can believe himself to be less than God created and that is man's mistake, to miss the sign of God. It is not a belief of man that he is imperfect, it is a fact of life and not believing it will not make him any less sinful or any closer to God.

[thedope]

I was going to touch on each of your points but this statement pretty much sums it up and is another reason you might want to check on that Spirit you say guides you, seeing as it's guiding you away from God's Word.

In what way am I being led astray? God's word is written in the heart of man.
You confuse your beliefs about the bible with God's word.
Lead me back where you think I belong brother. Touch on your points. I still have a standing question to you regarding your statement that I am is a mistranslation.

[thedope]

The Scriptures are filled with Holy Spirit and Holy Spirit leads one toward the Bible not away from it. I acknowledge that you seem to have a Spirit but since it seems to lead you away from God's word, I would be careful if I were you.

Actually the Holy Spirit leads one toward God. There was no christian scripture until later. There was no canon until later. I do not discount the bible in any way. I see it for what it is. I see the lessons that are taught there. The words of Christ are recorded in it. At one time I looked to the bible because I was taught to believe the truth was in it. That kept me looking, studying, applying the sayings of Christ to my everyday life. Now I no longer lean to the bible because I believe it is true. I uphold the truth that is in it because it is true. I have no more wish to be deceived than you brother.

[thedope]

It is not a belief of man that he is imperfect, it is a fact of life and not believing it will not make him any less sinful or any closer to God.

What imperfect fact would you point to. Where is the documentation? Man hides from God in the garden still, seeing himself sinful, exposed and ashamed. God seeks only that his son come out and stand before him that he may be restored the awareness of his inheritance in creation.

[def zeppelin]

We can hide from God because of mistrust and forgetting God's nature. Adam and Eve hid from God because their actions blinded their hearts from knowing God's intentions, so they began to fear him because their consciences became corrupt; They projected their own faults onto God and thought God had the same intentions as them.

I would say that since they did not see themselves as sinful or even recognize its nature, they would have been less able to realize God's nature, so they hid, thinking God would seek to hurt them rather than to counsel them and lead them back towards Him. This is what most people do today. We still hide from God because we have forgotten his intention due to our own corruption.

[HippiexChild]

We can hide from God because of mistrust and forgetting God's nature. Adam and Eve hid from God because their actions blinded their hearts from knowing God's intentions, so they began to fear him because their consciences became corrupt; They projected their own faults onto God and thought God had the same intentions as them.

I would say that since they did not see themselves as sinful or even recognize its nature, they would have been less able to realize God's nature, so they hid, thinking God would seek to hurt them rather than to counsel them and lead them back towards Him. This is what most people do today. We still hide from God because we have forgotten his intention due to our own corruption.

I have to agree with you. We ALL have hidden from God at one point of our lives. Maybe we are doing it now.. But I mean God only wants whats best for us no matter what.

[OlderWaterBrother]

What imperfect fact would you point to. Where is the documentation? Man hides from God in the garden still, seeing himself sinful, exposed and ashamed. God seeks only that his son come out and stand before him that he may be restored the awareness of his inheritance in creation.This "imperfect" fact, this documentation; (1 John 1:10) If we make the statement: “We have not sinned,” we are making him a liar, and his word is not in us.

[thedope]

This "imperfect" fact, this documentation; (1 John 1:10) If we make the statement: “We have not sinned,” we are making him a liar, and his word is not in us.

And were I to say that I had not sinned I too would be a liar. There is a difference between making an error and being of an imperfect nature.
What is sin waterbrother?

[OlderWaterBrother]

And were I to say that I had not sinned I too would be a liar. There is a difference between making an error and being of an imperfect nature.
What is sin waterbrother? It is missing the mark.

[thedope]

It is missing the mark.

What mark?

[OlderWaterBrother]

What mark? The common Hebrew term translated “sin” is chat·ta’th′; in Greek the usual word is ha·mar·ti′a. In both languages the verb forms (Heb., cha·ta’′; Gr., ha·mar·ta′no) mean “miss,” in the sense of missing or not reaching a goal, way, mark, or right point. At Judges 20:16 cha·ta’′ is used, with a negative, to describe the Benjamites who were ‘slingers of stones to a hairbreadth and would not miss.’

[thedope]

The common Hebrew term translated “sin” is chat·ta’th′; in Greek the usual word is ha·mar·ti′a. In both languages the verb forms (Heb., cha·ta’′; Gr., ha·mar·ta′no) mean “miss,” in the sense of missing or not reaching a goal, way, mark, or right point. At Judges 20:16 cha·ta’′ is used, with a negative, to describe the Benjamites who were ‘slingers of stones to a hairbreadth and would not miss.’

Would it be an acceptable interpretation to say that to sin is to miss God's mark?

[honeyfugle]

Would it be an acceptable interpretation to say that to sin is to miss God's mark?
I would say that's about right, that's what it connotes to me. Having not reached God's expectations of me, missing the standards expected from me when I do something wrong.

[OlderWaterBrother]

Would it be an acceptable interpretation to say that to sin is to miss God's mark? It would depend on the context, seeing as Judges is talking about slingers of stones and not missing a target but to say sin is missing God' mark or the mark of perfection, would seem acceptable. ;)

[thedope]

I would say that's about right, that's what it connotes to me. Having not reached God's expectations of me, missing the standards expected from me when I do something wrong.

What if it means we simply fail to see the nature of the world as God created it?

[OlderWaterBrother]

What if it means we simply fail to see the nature of the world as God created it? That could be part of it but there seems to be more to it than that.

[thedope]

That could be part of it but there seems to be more to it than that.

We can examine this perspective in relation to the whole story of sin and the remedy to it as provided by Christ.

First we have a world including man, created by God, Judged by God as good, very good.
May we state that this is the world as God created it.

Then we have a serpent, a liar, who convinces this man of God given radiance that he is unlike his creator but if he he takes on the capacity to distinguish good from evil, only then will he have the power of God.
May we state that now man sees a world which God did not create nor did he intend for us to have.

May we state that the world can only be as god created it and that the vision of a world and a man possessed of both good and evil is a lie, an illusion of truth.

May we state that the act of declaring a thing either good or evil we call judgment.

May we then state that mans judgment of the world, himself, and his brother constitutes the progenitor of all sin or original sin.

Now we can point to remedy to sin as provided by Christ.

For judgment I have come into the world, that the seeing may become blind that the blind may see.

May we state that man is forgiven as he relenquishes his judgment upon the world, his brother, and himself.

May we state that forgiveness is the mercy required by Christ for the redemption of the world, your brother, and yourself.

[HippiexChild]

We can examine this perspective in relation to the whole story of sin and the remedy to it as provided by Christ.

First we have a world including man, created by God, Judged by God as good, very good.
May we state that this is the world as God created it.

Then we have a serpent, a liar, who convinces this man of God given radiance that he is unlike his creator but if he he takes on the capacity to distinguish good from evil, only then will he have the power of God.
May we state that now man sees a world which God did not create nor did he intend for us to have.

May we state that the world can only be as god created it and that the vision of a world and a man possessed of both good and evil is a lie, an illusion of truth.

May we state that the act of declaring a thing either good or evil we call judgment.

May we then state that mans judgment of the world, himself, and his brother constitutes the progenitor of all sin or original sin.

Now we can point to remedy to sin as provided by Christ.

For judgment I have come into the world, that the seeing may become blind that the blind may see.

May we state that man is forgiven as he relenquishes his judgment upon the world, his brother, and himself.

May we state that forgiveness is the mercy required by Christ for the redemption of the world, your brother, and yourself.

Right you are. Most people think you have to be perfect to be saved. But thats just all the media and rumor bs. Thats why most people don't even think about getting saved...

[OlderWaterBrother]

We can examine this perspective in relation to the whole story of sin and the remedy to it as provided by Christ.

First we have a world including man, created by God, Judged by God as good, very good.
May we state that this is the world as God created it.

Then we have a serpent, a liar, who convinces this man of God given radiance that he is unlike his creator but if he he takes on the capacity to distinguish good from evil, only then will he have the power of God.
May we state that now man sees a world which God did not create nor did he intend for us to have.

May we state that the world can only be as god created it and that the vision of a world and a man possessed of both good and evil is a lie, an illusion of truth.

May we state that the act of declaring a thing either good or evil we call judgment.

May we then state that mans judgment of the world, himself, and his brother constitutes the progenitor of all sin or original sin.

Now we can point to remedy to sin as provided by Christ.

For judgment I have come into the world, that the seeing may become blind that the blind may see.

May we state that man is forgiven as he relenquishes his judgment upon the world, his brother, and himself.

May we state that forgiveness is the mercy required by Christ for the redemption of the world, your brother, and yourself.Nice try but nope.

If sin is simply failing to see the nature of the world as God created it?

Then it would be possible to correct that with out the need for Jesus' ransom sacrifice and both God and Jesus felt that was necessary.

[thedope]

Nice try but nope.

If sin is simply failing to see the nature of the world as God created it?

Then it would be possible to correct that with out the need for Jesus' ransom sacrifice and both God and Jesus felt that was necessary.

Is it not the point that ransom and sacrifice was made, so that the ransom and sacrifice should end. That brother would no longer deem it necessary to call for his brothers blood.

If you claim this has occurred then why do you act as if it is something yet to be accomplished? Is not Christs sacrifice enough to satisfy your lust for blood, or would you see every man women and child on this planet crucified for the sake of sin for which you refuse forgiveness.

[OlderWaterBrother]

Is it not the point that ransom and sacrifice was made, so that the ransom and sacrifice should end. That brother would no longer deem it necessary to call for his brothers blood. No.

If you claim this has occurred then why do you act as if it is something yet to be accomplished? Is not Christs sacrifice enough to satisfy your lust for blood, or would you see every man women and child on this planet crucified for the sake of sin for which you refuse forgiveness. My lust for Blood? What in the world are you talking about?

[thedope]

No.

My lust for Blood? What in the world are you talking about?

Weren't you told the wages of sin is death? Is Christ's demonstration not enough for you. When you accuse your brother of sin you call for his death.

Christ comes to teach you of your innocence in creation, and gives us a way to restore ourselves so that your father may have some sense of you, of the good thing of himself that he had given to you. God will take the last step in welcoming you home.

The command is love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you.
You cannot love what you condemn. You feel this is right to condemn, You feel that way because that is the way you were taught to believe. Now you must condemn in order to justify your unwillingness to forgive. It would be a violation of your belief.

Brother all things are forgiven save for blaspheme against the Holy Spirit.
All that faces you is to forgive yourself for being mistaken about the Holy Son of God.

[OlderWaterBrother]

Weren't you told the wages of sin is death? Is Christ's demonstration not enough for you. When you accuse your brother of sin you call for his death. Yes the wages of sin are death.

It wasn't a "demonstration".

I have accused no one of sin and call for no ones death.
Christ comes to teach you of your innocence in creation, and gives us a way to restore ourselves so that your father may have some sense of you, of the good thing of himself that he had given to you. God will take the last step in welcoming you home. We are not able to "restore" ourselves but we can put ourselves in line for "restoration".
The command is love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you. Yes.
You cannot love what you condemn. You feel this is right to condemn, You feel that way because that is the way you were taught to believe. Now you must condemn in order to justify your unwillingness to forgive. It would be a violation of your belief. What in the world are talking about? I have condemned no one and in what way do you feel I'm not willing to forgive?
Brother all things are forgiven save for blaspheme against the Holy Spirit.Yes, that is true.
All that faces you is to forgive yourself for being mistaken about the Holy Son of God. Nothing to forgive, if I'm not mistaken. Perhaps it is you that is mistaken?

[thedope]

It wasn't a "demonstration".

The life and teachings of Christ are demonstration and iteration of metaphysical principals. By metaphysical we mean, of the essential nature of reality. To teach us about the world as God created it and our relationship to it.

I have accused no one of sin and call for no ones death.Quote:
Originally Posted by OlderWaterBrother View Post
It is not a belief of man that he is imperfect, it is a fact of life and not believing it will not make him any less sinful or any closer to God.

Perhaps I am mistaken. It appears to me, that the two statements above are in direct contradiction to each other. I am not sure then which one you are claiming for us.

[thedope]

Waterbrother states:

"We are not able to "restore" ourselves but we can put ourselves in line for "restoration"."

It is possible to sin no more as Jesus has commanded.

[OlderWaterBrother]

The life and teachings of Christ are demonstration and iteration of metaphysical principals. By metaphysical we mean, of the essential nature of reality. To teach us about the world as God created it and our relationship to it. To teach us about the world as God created it and our relationship to it? Jesus was teaching us about our relationship with God not with the World. :D
Perhaps I am mistaken. It appears to me, that the two statements above are in direct contradiction to each other. I am not sure then which one you are claiming for us.You are mistaken. There is no contradiction.;)

[OlderWaterBrother]

Waterbrother states:

"We are not able to "restore" ourselves but we can put ourselves in line for "restoration"."

It is possible to sin no more as Jesus has commanded. Please show me the Scripture that says we can "restore ourselves".

[thedope]

Please show me the Scripture that says we can "restore ourselves".

Go and sin no more.

[thedope]

To teach us about the world as God created it and our relationship to it? Jesus was teaching us about our relationship with God not with the World.

The measure you give is the measure you get. What is loosed on earth is also loosed in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, Seek first the kingdom of God and all these things will be added unto you.


You are mistaken. There is no contradiction.;)

How are I accuse no one of sin, and it is a fact of life that man is sinful, synonymous statements?

[thedope]

Please show me the Scripture that says we can "restore ourselves".

Not everyone who says to me lord lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven but those who keep my sayings.

Your faith has made you well.

Repent.

leave the dead to bury the dead.

If thy eye offend thee pluck it out.

Love you enemy.

Suffer the children to come unto me.

Fear not.

Turn the other cheek.

Give to them who ask.

Sell all you have and give to the poor.

Do not hide your lamp under a bushel.

The eye is the lamp of the body. If the eye be sound then the whole body will be full of light.

[thedope]

It is not a belief of man that he is imperfect, it is a fact of life and not believing it will not make him any less sinful or any closer to God.

Verily I say to you if you believe and do not doubt you can cause a mountain to throw itself into the sea.

Whereas I would argue with Paul, you would argue with Jesus.

If the light in you be darkness, then how great the darkness.

[OlderWaterBrother]

Go and sin no more. Sorry, that does not in of itself restore one's self.

If you were in a car crash and someone fixed the car so it could run but did not remove the dents, he could say go and crash no more but crashing no more would not restore the car.

[OlderWaterBrother]

The measure you give is the measure you get. No.
What is loosed on earth is also loosed in heaven. Yes.
Give us this day our daily bread, Yes.
Seek first the kingdom of God and all these things will be added unto you. Yes.
How are I accuse no one of sin, and it is a fact of life that man is sinful, synonymous statements?syn·on·y·mous [si nónnəməss] adj
1. having same meaning: meaning the same, or almost the same, as another word in the same language, or being an alternative name for somebody or something
2. having similar connotation: having an implication similar to the idea expressed by another word

That's just it, they aren't synonymous. You're the one implying that they are.

[OlderWaterBrother]

Not everyone who says to me lord lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven but those who keep my sayings.

Your faith has made you well.

Repent.

leave the dead to bury the dead.

If thy eye offend thee pluck it out.

Love you enemy.

Suffer the children to come unto me.

Fear not.

Turn the other cheek.

Give to them who ask.

Sell all you have and give to the poor.

Do not hide your lamp under a bushel.

The eye is the lamp of the body. If the eye be sound then the whole body will be full of light. Well you can quote the Bible but the only thing you quoted that even comes close to filling the bill is "Your faith has made you well" and that is talking about someone physically sick and was healed not that they had spiritually "restored" themselves.

If mankind had that ability then Jesus would not have had to been sacrificed. ;)

[OlderWaterBrother]

Verily I say to you if you believe and do not doubt you can cause a mountain to throw itself into the sea.

Whereas I would argue with Paul, you would argue with Jesus.

If the light in you be darkness, then how great the darkness. I'm not arguing with Jesus, I'm arguing with you. Whereas we may, just a Jesus said, have the power to move mountain like obstacles, we do not have the power to "restore" ourselves to perfection without God's help.

[thedope]

In regards to waterbrothers self contradictory statements, I did not say or imply that they were synonymous, exactly the opposite. On the one hand you say you accuse no one of sin. On the other hand you say that it is a fact that he is sinful. I tell you the Son is still as God created him and you say no he is not, and believing otherwise will not make you closer to God.

To believe that you are sinful, is to believe that you are separate from God and are not as God created you. This belief is the light that is in you that is darkness. By virtue of this belief you judge both yourself and your brother unworthy. This is a slander against the Holy Child of God. By virtue of this belief, you cannot see that Christ abides in and amongst us. You are asleep and you are dreaming of a light that is yet to come.

[thedope]

I'm not arguing with Jesus, I'm arguing with you. Whereas we may, just a Jesus said, have the power to move mountain like obstacles, we do not have the power to "restore" ourselves to perfection without God's help.

I did not say restore ourselves without help. I said:

Christ comes to teach you of your innocence in creation, and gives us a way to restore ourselves so that your father may have some sense of you, of the good thing of himself that he had given to you. God will take the last step in welcoming you home.

Christ gave us a practice that restores our sight, that enables us to see our brother and ourselves in the light which God created.
God sees in you only what he created and sees not at all the dark mantle that you drape over your brothers "sinful and rotting corpse".

God's judgment is already upon you at the moment of your creation. It is not loves way to force upon you what you are unwilling to accept. As long as you refuse to see the light of Christ in your brother, then your eye is not sound.

When we see Christ we shall be like him.
In this moment of recognition God takes the last step in welcoming you home.

[OlderWaterBrother]

In regards to waterbrothers self contradictory statements, I did not say or imply that they were synonymous, exactly the opposite. On the one hand you say you accuse no one of sin. On the other hand you say that it is a fact that he is sinful. I tell you the Son is still as God created him and you say no he is not, and believing otherwise will not make you closer to God.

To believe that you are sinful, is to believe that you are separate from God and are not as God created you. This belief is the light that is in you that is darkness. By virtue of this belief you judge both yourself and your brother unworthy. This is a slander against the Holy Child of God. By virtue of this belief, you cannot see that Christ abides in and amongst us. You are asleep and you are dreaming of a light that is yet to come.


To believe you are sinful is to believe God's word.

(Romans 3:23) For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

(Ecclesiastes 7:20) For there is no man righteous in the earth that keeps doing good and does not sin.

(Romans 3:9) What then? Are we in a better position? Not at all! For above we have made the charge that Jews as well as Greeks are all under sin;

(2 Chronicles 6:36) “In case they sin against you (for there is no man that does not sin), and you have to be incensed at them and abandon them to an enemy, and their captors actually carry them off captive to a land distant or nearby;

(Psalm 51:5) Look! With error I was brought forth with birth pains, And in sin my mother conceived me.

(Psalm 130:3) If errors were what you watch, O Jah, O Jehovah, who could stand?

(Psalm 143:2) And do not enter into judgment with your servant; For before you no one alive can be righteous.

(Proverbs 20:9) Who can say: “I have cleansed my heart; I have become pure from my sin”?

(1 John 1:8) If we make the statement: “We have no sin,” we are misleading ourselves and the truth is not in us.

This last says that you are a liar and are not only misleading yourself but are trying to mislead others. Thus you reveal who you follow and who you serve.

As for Jesus, he is the first and also the last man since Adam and Eve to be sinless. That is why his sacrifice is so meaningful for us.

[thedope]

Well you can quote the Bible but the only thing you quoted that even comes close to filling the bill is "Your faith has made you well" and that is talking about someone physically sick and was healed not that they had spiritually "restored" themselves.

If mankind had that ability then Jesus would not have had to been sacrificed. ;)

Never once did Jesus say he was sacrificing himself. John said it. Paul said it.
Jesus did not. He said he gives his body and his blood, "shed", disposed of, and goes on to demonstrate that mans dream of death has no power over God's truth, and way, and life. Christ is risen.

To sacrifice is to give something up that you would prefer to keep. Christ has no need of a perishable body, nor does Gods Son but it is something that he wants for himself thinking that he has earned his death.

Jesus specifically said I desire mercy not sacrifice.

[thedope]

To believe you are sinful is to believe God's word.

(Romans 3:23) For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

(Ecclesiastes 7:20) For there is no man righteous in the earth that keeps doing good and does not sin.

(Romans 3:9) What then? Are we in a better position? Not at all! For above we have made the charge that Jews as well as Greeks are all under sin;

(2 Chronicles 6:36) “In case they sin against you (for there is no man that does not sin), and you have to be incensed at them and abandon them to an enemy, and their captors actually carry them off captive to a land distant or nearby;

(Psalm 51:5) Look! With error I was brought forth with birth pains, And in sin my mother conceived me.

(Psalm 130:3) If errors were what you watch, O Jah, O Jehovah, who could stand?

(Psalm 143:2) And do not enter into judgment with your servant; For before you no one alive can be righteous.

(Proverbs 20:9) Who can say: “I have cleansed my heart; I have become pure from my sin”?

(1 John 1:8) If we make the statement: “We have no sin,” we are misleading ourselves and the truth is not in us.

This last says that you are a liar and are not only misleading yourself but are trying to mislead others. Thus you reveal who you follow and who you serve.

As for Jesus, he is the first and also the last man since Adam and Eve to be sinless. That is why his sacrifice is so meaningful for us.

Not one of these quotes are attributed to Jesus who is Christ.

[thedope]

To believe you are sinful is to believe God's word.

(Romans 3:23) For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

(Ecclesiastes 7:20) For there is no man righteous in the earth that keeps doing good and does not sin.

(Romans 3:9) What then? Are we in a better position? Not at all! For above we have made the charge that Jews as well as Greeks are all under sin;

(2 Chronicles 6:36) “In case they sin against you (for there is no man that does not sin), and you have to be incensed at them and abandon them to an enemy, and their captors actually carry them off captive to a land distant or nearby;

(Psalm 51:5) Look! With error I was brought forth with birth pains, And in sin my mother conceived me.

(Psalm 130:3) If errors were what you watch, O Jah, O Jehovah, who could stand?

(Psalm 143:2) And do not enter into judgment with your servant; For before you no one alive can be righteous.

(Proverbs 20:9) Who can say: “I have cleansed my heart; I have become pure from my sin”?

(1 John 1:8) If we make the statement: “We have no sin,” we are misleading ourselves and the truth is not in us.

This last says that you are a liar and are not only misleading yourself but are trying to mislead others. Thus you reveal who you follow and who you serve.

As for Jesus, he is the first and also the last man since Adam and Eve to be sinless. That is why his sacrifice is so meaningful for us.

You must condemn in order to justify your belief.
Period.

[OlderWaterBrother]

Not one of these quotes are attributed to Jesus who is Christ. So? All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

Also noticed how you didn't seem to mention why what you say diverges from what God's Word says.

Interesting. ;)

[OlderWaterBrother]

You must condemn in order to justify your belief.
Period. No I have not condemned anyone, it is not in my power to do so.

But "the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints and [their] marrow, and [is] able to discern thoughts and intentions of [the] heart. And there is not a creation that is not manifest to his sight, but all things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of him with whom we have an accounting." (Hebrews 4:12-13)

Thus it seems your thoughts and intentions have been openly exposed. :D

[def zeppelin]

It's not condemnation to counsel others when the time calls for it and in a way fitting to Christianity. Otherwise we would consider all advice that people give to each other as an expression of failure on the other and not as genuine concern, but that simply isn't true.

[thedope]

No I have not condemned anyone, it is not in my power to do so.

It is in your power to forgive, and in that power you are forgiven.


But "the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints and [their] marrow, and [is] able to discern thoughts and intentions of [the] heart. And there is not a creation that is not manifest to his sight, but all things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of him with whom we have an accounting." (Hebrews 4:12-13)

Thus it seems your thoughts and intentions have been openly exposed. :D

The bible that you know did not exist at the writing of Hebrews. He is talking about the living word of God.
This living word you seem to know not a thing about.

[mastercylinder]

honor thy father and thy mother---a commandment written in stone

[OlderWaterBrother]

It is in your power to forgive, and in that power you are forgiven. Yes, it is within my power to forgive.
The bible that you know did not exist at the writing of Hebrews. He is talking about the living word of God. Perhaps but most of it did and since it is all authored by God the scripture would apply to that which had yet to be written.
This living word you seem to know not a thing about. And this "living word" that I "know not a thing about" does it disagree with the written Word of God as much as you do? ;)

[thedope]

So? All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

Also noticed how you didn't seem to mention why what you say diverges from what God's Word says.

Interesting. ;)

All of God is in all things. We may indeed learn of every dot of the i and punctuation mark in the Bible. I differ with your hierarchical interpretations of what is written.
Why would I mention some thing that does not occur. I do not diverge from the living word of God.
But as far as my disagreements with Paul's letters, I have been very succinct in demonstrating my position in the light of day for everyone to see. I have not hidden behind a sheaf of paper.

[OlderWaterBrother]

All of God is in all things. God's Word doesn't say that, so where does it come from? You're not just making it up are you?
We may indeed learn of every dot of the i and punctuation mark in the Bible. I differ with your hierarchical interpretations of what is written.My hierarchical interpretations? I quote a few scriptures, word for word and suddenly it's my hierarchical interpretation? Now that's funny. :D
Why would I mention some thing that does not occur. I do not diverge from the living word of God. Yes you do. Deny it all you want but diverge you do.
But as far as my disagreements with Paul's letters, I have been very succinct in demonstrating my position in the light of day for everyone to see. Yes you have, that is why I can say you diverge from God's word.
I have not hidden behind a sheaf of paper. Oh, you mean to say that Jesus was hiding "behind a sheaf of paper" when he said; It is written? Interesting. ;)

[thedope]

God's Word doesn't say that, so where does it come from? You're not just making it up are you?

God created heaven and earth and all that is in it.

My hierarchical interpretations? I quote a few scriptures, word for word and suddenly it's my hierarchical interpretation? Now that's funny. :D

Yes, you interpret scripture from a hierarchical model of the world taught to you by the world.

Oh, you mean to say that Jesus was hiding "behind a sheaf of paper" when he said; It is written? Interesting. ;)

That would be the same Jesus that said it is written but I tell you something different.

[thedope]

As ye go preach saying the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what you hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

[OlderWaterBrother]

God created heaven and earth and all that is in it. Why yes he did. But does not mean that; All of God is in all things.
Yes, you interpret scripture from a hierarchical model of the world taught to you by the world. I could very well; "interpret scripture from a hierarchical model of the world taught to you by the world" but see the problem is when I "quote a few scriptures, word for word" that is not an interpretation, that is the Bible speaking straight to you, are you listening?
That would be the same Jesus that said it is written but I tell you something different. Everyone that pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God.. . .(2 John 9)

[OlderWaterBrother]

As ye go preach saying the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what you hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.Yep, that's what I do, do you? ;)

[thedope]

Why yes he did. But does not mean that; All of God is in all things.

God is the God of creation, not of withholding. A law without opposite.

I could very well; "interpret scripture from a hierarchical model of the world taught to you by the world" but see the problem is when I "quote a few scriptures, word for word" that is not an interpretation, that is the Bible speaking straight to you, are you listening?
It is not a problem but an aspect of process, that both of us bring to mind and present scripture from the perspective of a line of thought. Your perspective is that the Bible has a magical quality that supersedes reason. My perspective is that the bible has a practical quality that informs everything.

Everyone that pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God.. . .(2 John 9)
I am a disciple of Christ and I teach as I am taught by the Holy Spirit.
I assume you have no problem with this unless you wish to accuse me of something else. As for pushing ahead, I have been at times a reluctant participant in this discussion because I personally don't see any reason for it.

[OlderWaterBrother]

... It is not a problem but an aspect of process, that both of us bring to mind and present scripture from the perspective of a line of thought. Your perspective is that the Bible has a magical quality that supersedes reason. My perspective is that the bible has a practical quality that informs everything. I too believe that the Bible has a practical quality, that by living by it's principles things will go well with you.

But I will not say the Bible has a "magical" quality, I will say though, it has a Godly quality that allows it to do and be things that other books just can not do.


I am a disciple of Christ and I teach as I am taught by the Holy Spirit.
I assume you have no problem with this unless you wish to accuse me of something else. As for pushing ahead, I have been at times a reluctant participant in this discussion because I personally don't see any reason for it. I am glad to hear you are a disciple of Christ and that you believe you are lead by the Holy Spirit but when you said; "That would be the same Jesus that said it is written but I tell you something different" I was worried and wanted to warn you, that according to the Bible, that may not be a good thing.

[thedope]

But I will not say the Bible has a "magical" quality, I will say though, it has a Godly quality that allows it to do and be things that other books just can not do.
We must be as innocent as doves and wise as serpents brother. By definition your beliefs are magical.


mag·ic [májjik]
n
1. conjuring tricks: conjuring tricks and illusions that make apparently impossible things seem to happen, usually performed as entertainment
2. inexplicable things: a special, mysterious, or inexplicable quality, talent, or skill
watched the dancer's feet work their magic

3. supposed supernatural power: a supposed supernatural power that makes impossible things happen or gives somebody control over the forces of nature.
Magic is used in many cultures for healing, keeping away evil, seeking the truth, and for vengeful purposes.
4. practice of magic: the use of supposed supernatural power to make impossible things happen
It could be argued that the "deification" of a book constitutes fashioning a graven image.
I say only magical belief.


I am glad to hear you are a disciple of Christ and that you believe you are lead by the Holy Spirit but when you said; "That would be the same Jesus that said it is written but I tell you something different" I was worried and wanted to warn you, that according to the Bible, that may not be a good thing.
I could see when I posted this statement how you would interpret it. You are suspicious of me as being hostile to the truth. You can not recognize that this is not so, because what I say challenges your beliefs. What I say does not challenge any fact. When I said "but I tell you something different", it was paraphrase for the many times Jesus quoted tradition yet called us to a higher requirement. I.e. matt. 5:17-48

[OlderWaterBrother]

We must be as innocent as doves and wise as serpents brother. By definition your beliefs are magical.Well let's see.
mag·ic [májjik]
n
1. conjuring tricks: conjuring tricks and illusions that make apparently impossible things seem to happen, usually performed as entertainment Well, no I do not believe the Bible to be a conjuring trick for entertainment.
2. inexplicable things: a special, mysterious, or inexplicable quality, talent, or skill It is not inexplicable. The simple answer is that God can do things that mankind can not.
3. supposed supernatural power: a supposed supernatural power that makes impossible things happen or gives somebody control over the forces of nature. Sorry, God is not a supposed supernatural power.
4. practice of magic: the use of supposed supernatural power to make impossible things happen Once again, Sorry, God is not a supposed supernatural power.
It could be argued that the "deification" of a book constitutes fashioning a graven image. Deification? I don't believe the Bible is God but is God's word and can do what God says it can. ;)
I could see when I posted this statement how you would interpret it. You are suspicious of me as being hostile to the truth. You can not recognize that this is not so, because what I say challenges your beliefs.What you say does not in any way challenge my beliefs. What I say does not challenge any fact. As I have pointed several times already what you say disagrees what the Bible. Perhaps that is your problem you don't believe the Bible.When I said "but I tell you something different", it was paraphrase for the many times Jesus quoted tradition yet called us to a higher requirement. I.e. matt. 5:17-48 You are not Jesus. :toetap05:

PS Did you even bother to read the Scripture before you cited it? Jesus did not have any high regard for man made traditions, that's true but when it came to what was written, he did not tell them "something different" but explained what they should already have known. (Matthew 5:17-19)

[thedope]

Well let's see.
Well, no I do not believe the Bible to be a conjuring trick for entertainment.
It is not inexplicable.The simple answer is that God can do things that mankind can not.
A book can not move from here to there without the hand of man.
Sorry, God is not a supposed supernatural power.
You believe the bible has super natural power. You also believe God is a supernatural power, although you disguise this belief from yourself by saying it is a fact that god is a supernatural power.
I say that God is the only power there is and nothing could be more natural.

Deification?
Exactly and unequivocally.
Perhaps that is your problem you don't believe the Bible.
I don't have a problem with the Bible. Your problem with me is that I do not share your magical beliefs about the bible.
You are not Jesus. :toetap05:
As I have told you before I am a disciple of Christ. I teach as I am taught by the Holy Spirit.
Do you know what Christ means?

Can you provide documentation on your statement that "I am" is a mistranslation? This is like the fifth time I've asked this question.

[OlderWaterBrother]

A book can not move from here to there without the hand of man.Please show me where I said it could?

You believe the bible has super natural power. Please show me were I said it did.You also believe God is a supernatural power, although you disguise this belief from yourself by saying it is a fact that god is a supernatural power.Please show me where I ever said he was.
I say that God is the only power there is and nothing could be more natural. Well, I will say that the entire Universe is sustained by God's power and is in existence because of his power and nothing could be more natural.


Exactly and unequivocally. Please show me where I have ever said that God's word is anything other than what God says it is.

I don't have a problem with the Bible. That would be easy to do if you don't really care what it says.
Your problem with me is that I do not share your magical beliefs about the bible. Actually, I have no problem with you, other than you're trying to teach things that disagree with the Bible.

As I have told you before I am a disciple of Christ. I teach as I am taught by the Holy Spirit. Jesus pointed out that there would be two groups that would claim to be his disciples. One group Jesus would approve of and to the other group he would say get away from me you workers of lawlessness.

As for your being taught by the "Holy Spirit", How do know it's the Holy Spirit? One test is whether it agrees with it self and I've already pointed out several times the the Spirit that is teaching you seems to be disagreeing with what was written by Holy Spirit in the Bible.

Do you know what Christ means? Yes, do you ?

Can you provide documentation on your statement that "I am" is a mistranslation? This is like the fifth time I've asked this question. Like your arm is broke and can't look it up for yourself.

Oh well, First, realize that what was said in Exodus was written in Hebrew and what Jesus said was written in Greek and thus the two expressions were not the same.

God’s reply in Hebrew was: ’Eh·yeh′ ’Asher′ ’Eh·yeh′. Some translations render this as “I AM THAT I AM.” However, it is to be noted that the Hebrew verb ha·yah′, from which the word ’Eh·yeh′ is drawn, does not mean simply “be.” Rather, it means “become,” or “prove to be.” The reference here is not to God’s self-existence but to what he has in mind to become toward others. Therefore the above Hebrew expression is properly rendered as “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.” Jehovah thereafter added: “This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘I SHALL PROVE TO BE has sent me to you.’”—Ex 3:14

Jesus—In Existence Before Abraham

Joh 8:58—“before Abraham came into existence, I have been”

Gr., πρὶν ᾿Αβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί

(prin A·bra·am′ ge·ne′sthai e·go′ ei·mi′)

Fourth/Fifth “before Abraham was, Syriac—Edition:
Century I have been” A Translation of the Four
Gospels from the Syriac of
the Sinaitic Palimpsest,
by Agnes Smith Lewis,
London, 1894.

Fifth Century “before ever Abraham Curetonian Syriac—Edition:
came to be, I was” The Curetonian Version of
the Four Gospels, by
F.Crawford Burkitt, Vol. 1,
Cambridge, England, 1904.

Fifth Century “before Abraham Syriac Peshitta—Edition:
existed, I was” The Syriac New Testament
Translated into English
from the Peshitto Version,
by James Murdock, seventh
ed., Boston and London,
1896.

Fifth Century “before Abraham Georgian—Edition:
came to be, I was” “The Old Georgian Version
of the Gospel of John,” by
Robert P. Blake and Maurice
Brière, published in
Patrologia Orientalis,
Vol. XXVI, fascicle 4,
Paris, 1950.

Sixth Century “before Abraham Ethiopic—Edition:
was born, I was” Novum Testamentum . . .
Æthiopice (The New
Testament . . . in
Ethiopic), by Thomas Pell
Platt, revised by F.
Praetorius, Leipzig, 1899.

The action expressed in Joh 8:58 started “before Abraham came into existence” and is still in progress. In such situation εἰμί (ei·mi′), which is the first-person singular present indicative, is properly translated by the perfect indicative. Examples of the same syntax are found in Lu 2:48; 13:7; 15:29; Joh 5:6; 14:9; 15:27; Ac 15:21; 2Co 12:19; 1Jo 3:8.

Concerning this construction, A Grammar of the Idiom of the New Testament, by G. B. Winer, seventh edition, Andover, 1897, p. 267, says: “Sometimes the Present includes also a past tense (Mdv. 108), viz. when the verb expresses a state which commenced at an earlier period but still continues,—a state in its duration; as, Jno. xv. 27 ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς μετ’ ἐμοῦ ἐστέ [ap’ ar·khes′ met’ e·mou′ e·ste′], viii. 58 πρὶν ᾿Αβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμι [prin A·bra·am′ ge·ne′sthai e·go′ ei·mi].”

Likewise, A Grammar of New Testament Greek, by J. H. Moulton, Vol. III, by Nigel Turner, Edinburgh, 1963, p. 62, says: “The Present which indicates the continuance of an action during the past and up to the moment of speaking is virtually the same as Perfective, the only difference being that the action is conceived as still in progress . . . It is frequent in the N[ew] T[estament]: Lk 248 137 . . . 1529 . . . Jn 56 858 . . . ”

Attempting to identify Jesus with Jehovah, some say that ἐγὼ εἰμί (e·go′ ei·mi′) is the equivalent of the Hebrew expression ’ani′ hu’, “I am he,” which is used by God. However, it is to be noted that this Hebrew expression is also used by man.—See 1Ch 21:17 ftn.

Further attempting to identify Jesus with Jehovah, some try to use Ex 3:14 (LXX) which reads: ᾿Εγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν (E·go′ ei·mi ho on), which means “I am The Being,” or, “I am The Existing One.” This attempt cannot be sustained because the expression in Ex 3:14 is different from the expression in Joh 8:58. (See Ex 3:14 ftn.) Throughout the Christian Greek Scriptures it is not possible to make an identification of Jesus with Jehovah as being the same person.—See 1Pe 2:3 ftn

[thedope]

As for your being taught by the "Holy Spirit", How do know it's the Holy Spirit? One test is whether it agrees with it self and I've already pointed out several times the the Spirit that is teaching you seems to be disagreeing with what was written by Holy Spirit in the Bible.
Now it is not "God" that "writes" the bible but the Holy Spirit. You are the one my friend who is denying the Holy Spirit in me, not Christ.
Yes, do you ?
You are tedious with your efforts not to be forth coming.

Like your arm is broke and can't look it up for yourself.
It is not my claim.

Oh well, First, realize that what was said in Exodus was written in Hebrew and what Jesus said was written in Greek and thus the two expressions were not the same.
You should realize that the words are written in English. All that you quote, which by the way are treatises of interpretation, are not as useful as you imagine.
The word in Aramaic that is translated today as daily bread in the lords prayer did not exist in the Greek language and was coined especially to make a translation. The latin translation of the Greek word that was used is
"supersubstantialem" which means super existing or super substantial, which is an idea somewhat removed from necessary or daily.
What can we make of this? Probably many things, but my point is that to go beyond English in this regard requires special resources that are in fact not "biblical", but academic.

[OlderWaterBrother]

Now it is not "God" that "writes" the bible but the Holy Spirit. You are the one my friend who is denying the Holy Spirit in me, not Christ. Do you even bother to read the Bible? (2 Peter 1:21)

As for me denying the "Holy Spirit" in you, I have not really said one way or another but I have pointed out that the Spirit that you have seems to disagree with what the Bible says and that would call in to question whether it's the Holly Spirit or not.
You are tedious with your efforts not to be forth coming.I answered your question, did you answer mine? :D
You should realize that the words are written in English. Ah no, they weren't.

When the Bible was written, the English language was either not in existence or unknown by those writing the Bible.
All that you quote, which by the way are treatises of interpretation, are not as useful as you imagine. Perhaps not to you. :D
The word in Aramaic that is translated today as daily bread in the lords prayer did not exist in the Greek language and was coined especially to make a translation. The latin translation of the Greek word that was used is "supersubstantialem" which means super existing or super substantial, which is an idea somewhat removed from necessary or daily.
What can we make of this? Probably many things, but my point is that to go beyond English in this regard requires special resources that are in fact not "biblical", but academic. Daily Bread? Please, at least try to make some connection to what is being discussed.

Go beyond English? Do you really believe the Bible was written in English? ;)

[thedope]

As for me denying the "Holy Spirit" in you, I have not really said one way or another but I have pointed out that the Spirit that you have seems to disagree with what the Bible says and that would call in to question whether it's the Holly Spirit or not.
Again the bible does not speak, you needn't respond. we already know your answer will be, yes it does.

Daily Bread? Please, at least try to make some connection to what is being discussed.
I do. The problem here seems to so many of the connections that are made you simply miss. You have a gap about you, whether intentional or not I cannot say. However it requires endless remedial attention.

you really believe the Bible was written in English? ;)
I don't need to believe it brother. I can't read any other language beside English. The Bible I read is written in English. If you belief otherwise, you are insane.

[OlderWaterBrother]

Again the bible does not speak, you needn't respond. we already know your answer will be, yes it does.Yes it does. :D


I do. The problem here seems to so many of the connections that are made you simply miss. You have a gap about you, whether intentional or not I cannot say. However it requires endless remedial attention.Please humor me and tell me what the connection might be. :D


I don't need to believe it brother. I can't read any other language beside English. The Bible I read is written in English. If you belief otherwise, you are insane. You crack me up. :smilielol5: