I don't know about you, but isn't Existentialism a bit pessimistic?

[MichaelByrd1967]

I'm an optimist for the most part. I like to see the positive things in life, but I read a lot of things posted in this forum, and I read a lot about pessimism. Can somebody clarify this?

[ImmortalDissident]

Yes, it isn't being pessimistic, it's being realistic. And when you know you're being realistic, you can also be an optimist because you know how to rationally assess situations.

Or something.

[MichaelByrd1967]

That's understandable. I mean, I am realistic most of the time, but I like to keep an optimistic outlook. I just don't like the kind of people who are always pessimistic. They're always so glum, and they feel that life isn't gonna get any better for them, when it actually does. Like those poser goth kids on South Park.

[ImmortalDissident]

Yeah, but... it doesn't really matter whether life gets "better" or not becuase in the end you're going to die. And the time between now and then is so insignificant that... well, it just isn't worth the concern.

[Silly Angel]

I don't think that existentialism is pessimistic in general. I think that some people can make it sound pretty damn bad. But to me, this way of thinking makes life that much more worth it. It gets you realizing that you are responsible for your time here. You don't bitch and moan about what's happening TO you, you take responsibility, figure out how to improve things, and move on. You do rather than talk about doing. I think the pessimism is a side affect of thinking you're an existentialist and not acting like one.

[cabbagehead]

It seems to focus on the negative because many existentialist writers focus on death and anxiety in the face of death. But they do this because they find it hard to get beyond themselves. Rather than pessimism, I think it is better categorized as skeptical. But all philosophy is skepticism. I think it was Nietzche who wrote that all modern philosophy is an epistemic skepticism.

Most all philosophy seems like that, to the layperson, but there are lots of constructivist philosophies out there. Existentialism is not one of them, however, because it is, by its very nature, more focused on the individual (well, maybe not Heidegger, but even still...). Existentialism therefore can't focus on any systematically constructive rhetoric, because it doesn't recognize much outside of the individual. Not because it is pessimistic in thinking that the world is a bad place, but rather because it is skeptical in thinking that there is reason to believe there is a universal and historically significant meaning that is able to be grasped by us, existing as individuals.

[White Feather]

One has to be very wary that Casuality, Determinism, Fatalism and Nihilism doesn't crop into one's Existential life.

[Jezmund]

I am now just getting into existentialism. I dont think it is either pessimistic or optimistic. It's just a search for the answer without the heavy religious overtones.

[Zion]

Yes, it isn't being pessimistic, it's being realistic. And when you know you're being realistic, you can also be an optimist because you know how to rationally assess situations.

Or something.She said it well. Umm.
We destroy negativity by seeing where posivity can replace it. Thus optomists.
As for the people who sound like they want to die, their just kidding.
Its this whole new pseudo intellectual thing, since we were born after such peaceful times.

[OSF]

I'm an optimist for the most part. I like to see the positive things in life, but I read a lot of things posted in this forum, and I read a lot about pessimism. Can somebody clarify this?
I don't know. It depends how you look at it.


AHHHHH HA HA HA.



Kripke would have laughed. (what do you mean there isn't a thread on ol' Saul?)

[Lying in a field]

I'm an optimist for the most part. I like to see the positive things in life, but I read a lot of things posted in this forum, and I read a lot about pessimism. Can somebody clarify this?
Pessimism is the greatest kind of optimism for it means one should expect better.

[Spacer]

Existentialism in my opinion borders on nihilism.

[Lying in a field]

I completely disagree. They are total opposites.

[mamaboogie]

Existentialism in my opinion borders on nihilism.
if you really think that, you don't know what existentialism is about at all. Don't just read what these people here are saying, read what the philosophers who invented the idea were saying. Don't just read what other people say they said, either. That's cheating, and anyone who has actually read Neitzche or Sartre or Heidegger will know you are full of crap.

[Lying in a field]

if you really think that, you don't know what existentialism is about at all. Don't just read what these people here are saying, read what the philosophers who invented the idea were saying. Don't just read what other people say they said, either. That's cheating, and anyone who has actually read Neitzche or Sartre or Heidegger will know you are full of crap.
woooah slow down, spacers cool, he just might be a bit misinformed. :)

[MichaelByrd1967]

woooah slow down, spacers cool, he just might be a bit misinformed. :)
Well I've read a lot into existentialism after posting this. It does represent a lot of things that I believe in, but the part about "those who are happy are living a bad life" and vice versa, really put me off. Can anybody expand on that?

[Lying in a field]

Well I've read a lot into existentialism after posting this. It does represent a lot of things that I believe in, but the part about "those who are happy are living a bad life" and vice versa, really put me off. Can anybody expand on that?
Actually, i don't quite get that part of existentialism either. I've just chosen to ignore it until now...please someone explain this.

[Spacer]

if you really think that, you don't know what existentialism is about at all. Don't just read what these people here are saying, read what the philosophers who invented the idea were saying. Don't just read what other people say they said, either. That's cheating, and anyone who has actually read Neitzche or Sartre or Heidegger will know you are full of crap.I've read Thus Spoke Zarathustra and Nausea and they are the books that led me to form my opinion. It would also appear to me that alot of writers on the subject seemed to lead a nihilistic life. Also existentialism is completely morbid, it denies the idea of social responsibility and morals. It is also a bit like Zen Buddhism, most people just write and talk about it, rarely practising. Sorry if we don't agree on the subject and you still think I am full of crap.

Om Shanti.

[mamaboogie]

not even the existentialists can agree on what existentialism is, it has so many faces. I can't remember who, I can look it up if you doubt me, but one of them that was always talking about doing what's best for Me ended up saying that what was good for one person is what is good for everyone, turning it into a sort of me-centered morality and system of ethics. Then someone else came around and expanded that idea and turned it around and said that if what you do isn't good for everyone, it's not good for you, either, in the big picture.


I'll add myself a little disclaimer, though. I am no existentialist. Totally hated having to study that stuff in college, but I did study it, and still have the books, and I still read them from time to time for some sick reason. But in college, I had a completely different idea of what those guys were trying to say than what I think about it now. See? Even one person's interpretations, of say, Neitzche's Beyond Good and Evil can disagree with what they thought it said the last time they read it. Two people's interpretations of those books cannot possibly ever agree. And two different philosophical viewpoints, like Neitzche and Sartre, couldn't be further apart, even though we give them the same label.

[Lying in a field]

I've read Thus Spoke Zarathustra and Nausea and they are the books that led me to form my opinion. It would also appear to me that alot of writers on the subject seemed to lead a nihilistic life. Also existentialism is completely morbid, it denies the idea of social responsibility and morals. It is also a bit like Zen Buddhism, most people just write and talk about it, rarely practising. Sorry if we don't agree on the subject and you still think I am full of crap.

Om Shanti.
Nausea was a very pessimistic book, but from what i've heard, Sartre's actual intentions behind his writing and theories were much more positive. And as far as I see responsibility makes up quite a substantial part of existentialism. I think there is moral responsibility but not moral fundamentalism. Which is why i'm so attracted to some but not all of the ideas.

[thumontico]

not even the existentialists can agree on what existentialism is, it has so many faces. I can't remember who, I can look it up if you doubt me, but one of them that was always talking about doing what's best for Me ended up saying that what was good for one person is what is good for everyone, turning it into a sort of me-centered morality and system of ethics. Then someone else came around and expanded that idea and turned it around and said that if what you do isn't good for everyone, it's not good for you, either, in the big picture.I don't know if its the same thing but it kinda rings a bell of something that Sartre wrote...

something like: "In choosing yourself, you choose the whole world."

sartre went on to explain (better than i can) that by choosing an action you should choose the most righteous action, and that by choosing the most righteous action you are choosing the action that would be (in your view) the most righteous action for every other individual in existence.

in other words, you cannot escape the "What if everyone acted that way" arguement simply by ignoring it and responding "everyone doesnt act that way" because the goal of existentialism is Authenticity. You should act the RIGHT way (whatever that may be) and by doing so you are choosing the universally right way to act.

[thumontico]

Existentialism in my opinion borders on nihilism.Nihilism is natural. It is the basis on which everyone should create their values. Nihilism denies the validity of orthodox values, this gives a person a starting point on which they can create their own values.

This isn't saying in anyway that nihilism is present after the creation of values --that would be contradictory-- just that the assumed values handed down by the culture you are raised in should be disgarded, and new, relevant, and self-determined values should be created in their place.

[Art Delfo]

Existentialism mixes with Absurdism from time to time and thats why it seems so pessimistic

[bamboo]

This is all a load of crap. To say that if I chose what seems "right" to me that I am somehow chosing what I believe right to be for every one is the HUMAN way but that is all. It is all full of ego and selfimportance. the universe is neither positive or negative, right or wrong, interested or indifferent. It just IS. All of that other crap is human ego trying to reach out and touch everyone else. True existentialism implies that we just exist...the universe just exists...and our decisions that we make define who we THINK we are as in reality we are nothing. But that is not pessimestic because that too is just another human invention in a universe that just IS. This all leads back to Eastern dualism and our dream like state where we dream our world view while reality just is.

[MichaelByrd1967]

This is all a load of crap. To say that if I chose what seems "right" to me that I am somehow chosing what I believe right to be for every one is the HUMAN way but that is all. It is all full of ego and selfimportance. the universe is neither positive or negative, right or wrong, interested or indifferent. It just IS. All of that other crap is human ego trying to reach out and touch everyone else. True existentialism implies that we just exist...the universe just exists...and our decisions that we make define who we THINK we are as in reality we are nothing. But that is not pessimestic because that too is just another human invention in a universe that just IS. This all leads back to Eastern dualism and our dream like state where we dream our world view while reality just is.
That's exactly how I feel. I just want to exist and live my life the way that I want to, but people shove down my throat that I have to read the Bible, or I have to read Dianetics, or the Quran, etc. That's all a load of bullshit. You don't need guidance from an ancient book that has no meaning in today's society. I prefer optimism over pessimism, because it seems right to me, but if all of those other jerkoffs want to be pessimistic and think that a great apocalypse is going to come, go right ahead and see how wrong you are when it never comes.

[Lying in a field]

This is all a load of crap. To say that if I chose what seems "right" to me that I am somehow chosing what I believe right to be for every one is the HUMAN way but that is all. It is all full of ego and selfimportance. the universe is neither positive or negative, right or wrong, interested or indifferent. It just IS. All of that other crap is human ego trying to reach out and touch everyone else. True existentialism implies that we just exist...the universe just exists...and our decisions that we make define who we THINK we are as in reality we are nothing. But that is not pessimestic because that too is just another human invention in a universe that just IS. This all leads back to Eastern dualism and our dream like state where we dream our world view while reality just is.
Existentialism says you should calm down.

[moka9x9]

Existentialism says you should go smoke a joint and eat a big mac.

[MichaelByrd1967]

Or A Steak Quesadilla and a Soft Taco with a Burrito Supreme at Taco Bell.

[Ramona]

I don't think existentialism is pessimisttic at all.
If we live in a world where nothing is fixed, then the possibilities are endless.
It's all about what you make of life, and not waiting for other to make life for you.

[Dr Phibes]

I've read Thus Spoke Zarathustra and Nausea and they are the books that led me to form my opinion. It would also appear to me that alot of writers on the subject seemed to lead a nihilistic life. Also existentialism is completely morbid, it denies the idea of social responsibility and morals. It is also a bit like Zen Buddhism, most people just write and talk about it, rarely practising. Sorry if we don't agree on the subject and you still think I am full of crap.This is the biggest load of crap I've read yet on the subject of what existentialism is about, mainly because most of the writers I've met and read on the subject of existentialism are bourgeois academics who get their kids to school in the morning then fill up the car with fuel - deliver a few dreary lectures and then go home and watch telly do some writing go to bed and do the whole thing again the next day. In fact perhaps you should read Sartre on the position of "Freedom and Responsibility" in which he says whatever you do in your life is your responsibility - he actually defined the terms under which the Nazis were tried after the second world war, and he was the person who decided the court could not accept a plea "I was just obeying orders". The court asked Sartre to define the prosecution arguments and then effectively to submit the rules of the trial
If you chose to fight in the war then that war was your responsibility - you could have chosen not to carry out the orders