Make CBN Pay to STOP spreading hate!

[TheRealPamela]

I am sure you have all seen those "Marriage = (man symbol)+(woman symbol)" bumper stickers before. Well I requested on from CBN. (CBN is run by the squinty-eyed hate monger millionaire bastard known as Pat Robertson. He has said ridiculous and hateful things against liberals and homosexuals, completely disragarding the teachings of the religion he supposedly follows)

Here's why I requested th sticker (and maybe you'll want to, also):

They pay to send it, it's free, AND they enclose a prepaid mailing envelope (because with the sticker they ask for money to share the word of our lord and savior Flying Spag-- uh, Jesus Christ).

Soooo
www.cbn.com/special/marriageamendment (http://www.cbn.com/special/marriageamendment)/ click that, get your free sticker, alter it, and send them a letter stating why spreading hate is not a good idea. And they pay for all of it.

Any good letter ideas? Here is what it looks like (I cut off the 700 Club CBN logo)i16.photobucket.com/albums/b24/Vegpami/CIMG1592.jp g (http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b24/Vegpami/CIMG1592.jpg)

All people deserve basic rights and being told whom to love violates those rights. Peace to you and tell me what you think

[Bassist]

Yeah, I've seen those on cars before. Never in my city, though....they'd get ripped off pretty quickly.

[hipunk]

.


That is the coolest idea! Please allow me to add to it.
When you receive your sticker don't throw it away. Heavens no! And DO NOT peal the backing off. But do cut out the little man and woman figures. Then, when you see a car that has one of these ridiculous stickers on the bumper, cover up either the man or woman as I have shown in the manipulated photo below.

Note, to easily peal off the backing after you have cut out the figure, bend a tiny part of a corner back, this will separate the backing from the sticker so you can peal them. Remember to wipe/clean off the bumper sticker before you apply your addition.



http://www.hipgallery.com/photopost2/data/500/equalmarrage.jpg

More than likely the person who puts the sticker on their car will never notice your improvement!

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[txbarefooter]

I think it'd be funny to get CBN's "contact us" email and use it on a gay porn web site as a contact email

[rain_in_summer]

@hipunk: What a great idea!
I've never seen these stickers around here and I know I should be happy to live in a more tolerant environment than a lot of you guys, but I would SO love to manipulate one of these stickers. ;) :)

[mushie18]

As much as I dislike closeminded people, and their bumper stickers, I just wouldn't touch them. Ignore it.. Someone ripped off my kerry/edwards sticker during the election last year and it is sad that people have to go to destruction to show their opinions. If someone has a bumper sticker like this, chances are more than likely that they will not change their stance. Destructive habits like this surely are not going to change their opinion, and will probably end up making it stronger.

[hipunk]

.

That depends on why you want to deface the sticker. I would never expect to change the person's mind who has that sicker on his car.

But they have used their bumper to advertise, just like a bill board. It is out in the public. Yeah, it's illegal to deface their sticker. So what? If you're going to go in public and air your mindless homophobia, you get what you deserve. Yeah, you have a right to get up on a soapbox and shout your hatred in the park. But I also have a right to heckle you, damn it!

When I was in high-school, a dude slapped a sign on my back that said "loser." That pissed me off! The next day he was walking down the hall with a sicker that said "Kick me." I wasn't the only one rolling on the floor. He deserved it.

And as far as I'm concerned, the CBN has declared war on the GLBT community. All's fair.

.

[TheRealPamela]

well my idea was to manipulate it by just colouring a big heart over the guy and girl and putting it on my own car. I have already made preprinted leaflets to people who have these on their car, courtesy of a person on the vegan forum I frequent:

I saw your bumper sticker and politely ask you to please not pollute public space with fossil social trash. Marriage is about love, not genital configuration.

[Bassist]

As much as I dislike closeminded people, and their bumper stickers, I just wouldn't touch them. Ignore it.. Someone ripped off my kerry/edwards sticker during the election last year and it is sad that people have to go to destruction to show their opinions. If someone has a bumper sticker like this, chances are more than likely that they will not change their stance. Destructive habits like this surely are not going to change their opinion, and will probably end up making it stronger. I wouldn't rip off any bumper stickers, personally...

But last year, there was a string of people destroying conserative signs and ripping off Bush stickers....it made me feel proud. Not that Kerry was any better, but hey...

[white_raven]

I agree with txbarefooter. LOL

I'm conflicted by issues like this. On one hand, I don't really feel that any hostile action would do any good. By acknowleging them, you are only giving them power by saying that there opinion has any affect on you whatsoever. I mean, the KKK aren't marginalized now because they were discriminated against, they are marginalized because no one takes them seriously anymore. I think that if we as a community break the stereotypes that we are evil and just simply live as we would normally do, then people will eventually have no logical arguments against us. On the other hand, I feel that "by any means necessary" spirit rising up in me, and I just believe we need to establish ourselves as a force to contend with.

The first is probably the most effective. From personal experience, I am a lot more respected for my views because I don't go around screaming them in everyone's faces. Then, when I do have a point to make, it is given extra attention.

As for the CBN and conservative Christianity, that beast will kill itself.

[TheRealPamela]

here's my letter to them

Dear CBN,

I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for sending me my free bumper sticker supporting the sanctity of marriage. Now I can spread my message and make a difference!
I altered it only slightly. I colored a large heart over the male and female figures. Now it says “Marriage= Love”.

I am not sure what translation of the Bible is used for reference at CBN, but in the ones that I have read, Jesus Christ taught a message of peace, compassion, love, and tolerance. I didn’t read anywhere in there where He said it was acceptable to spread hateful messages calling for the denying of basic human rights. Two people have the right to love one another, be respected, and have their love honored- regardless of whether or not one of those people has male or female genitalia, and regardless of what your network, Pat Robertson, or any other member of your klan thinks about it.

Speaking of Pat, he is a despicable human being and a disgrace to the religion of Christianity. He makes all Christians look hateful and insane. Whether he is calling for the assassination of foreign presidents (and then later lying about it) like he did this year, or preaching sexism (I am sure you all remember the 1992 quote where Pat mentioned that feminism leads women to, amongst other things, kill their children, practice witchcraft and become lesbians), or playing God (referring to the loving message he sent to the people of Dover, PA to not ask for God‘s help in the event of a natural disaster- something that is entirely not his place to dictate) he is making a great example. That example is what NOT to be. That example is what compassion, peace, and love are NOT all about. If such unabashedly hateful people like Pat Robertson go to heaven when they die, then I would hate to imagine what the twisted God who allowed him in would be like.

This message is not to change your opinions. It is obvious to me that CBN is a lost cause when referring to logic or ethics. The aim of this letter is to let you know that not everyone is like you, that there are good people out there, and that we won’t stand for such thinly-disguised hate propaganda.

Thank you for paying for my sticker, paying the postage to send it to me, and paying for me to send you this letter.

[Erasmus70]

Seriously, Even though Marriage is (so far in most places) always One Man + One Woman, I dont see these bumper stickers as a cool way to express your observation of this.
Whats much more retarded than that would be ripping them off or defacing peoples cars etc.
If you run a 'counter sticker' then really your just as silly as the guy with the original one.
Yes, I was once tempted to pull a guy out of his car and punch him in the face for his antichristian sticker portraying a Christian symbol made to look like a Darwin fish.
STill.. thats not cool.
You better to just ignore it or simply talk to them - vandalising is lame.

[Arrow Earthling]

I've ordered stuff from them before. I don't use the stickers, I just have them in kind of a "collection" of mine. I do send back the Business Reply Envelopes, filled with random stuff I find.

Personally, I've only seen one car that actually had the sticker on. I felt like keying the car, but I didn't. As much as I hate what they say, they have the right to freedom of speech.

[TheRealPamela]

Yes, I was once tempted to pull a guy out of his car and punch him in the face for his antichristian sticker portraying a Christian symbol made to look like a Darwin fish.




why? because the fish evolved? you should see the pompous shit Christians put on their cars here.

[Erasmus70]

Yes, I was once tempted to pull a guy out of his car and punch him in the face for his antichristian sticker portraying a Christian symbol made to look like a Darwin fish.

why? because the fish evolved? you should see the pompous shit Christians put on their cars here.
Well its a little 'fuck you' to Christians is why.
Its like the 'Spaghetti Monster' ... errr. 'Joke' in that its actually a joke on the person using it.
In this case, not a single legitimate full-fledged naturalist antichristian Evolutionist in the last fifty years would be able to call himself a Darwinist without being howled at with laughter.

Its still a 'Fuck you and im gonna make you watch me deface your sacred symbol'.
If I saw a Star of David with a little St.Paul pissing on it - I would know that was also a real scumbag too.

Anyways: The symbol of the fish - The fish symbol was created using the Greek letters which spell out ICTHUS : Jesus Christ God's Son Saviour. ICTHUS also means fish - so the fish symbol was used when the early church was being persecuted. This was a secret sign scratched on the walls of buildings or drawn on the floor in the sand, to tell people where a Christian meeting was being held.

So if you want to .. lmfao.. put a Darwin emblem then fine - but your a shit for mocking someones holy symbols.
Later one came out which was an ICTHUS actually eating the 'Darwin Fish'.

I really dont care what you think is 'Pompous' or not because If I put a picture of your Mother on my bumper with a little picture of me giving her the finger - thats an asshole thing to do.
Same as the Darwin fish thing really.

Anyways.. fortunately for him I realised that it shows what a desperate lowlife his belief system really is.
I also had jussst enough Holy Spirit in me to keep from slapping him right in the middle of an intersection.

[TheRealPamela]

You seem to be pretty angry. Like, overly angry.

Know what makes me angry? People imposing their beliefs on others at completely inapproptriate times. When I am at work, coming up to me out of nowhere (unprovoked) to tell me how Jesus is the saviour of the world is not the time, nor the place to do it. And this happens about 4 times a week. (and there are crazies from the church that come down on Saturdays, stand at the intersection, pawn their kids to hold up signs and scream-yes, scream- at people in their cars how they are going to hell).
That is one reason why I am sick of people like this. No logic, nothing except an antiquated book that talks about how to raise cattle and treat your women (poorly, might I add. Read the verse about rape, the rapist has to pay daddy some silver, then marry the girl he raped). But, they are going to heaven so no logical argument is neccessary. Of coure not all people are like this. But many are, and therefore I would have no problems putting a Darwin fish on my car.

[Green]

What happened to the civic principle of tolerance?

[TheRealPamela]

Are you saying I should be happy that people do the behaviours above, even though it encroaches on my rights? I do not violent action against them, I don't think that's a way to change minds. I am a pretty open minded person, but I refuse to take verbal assault or harrassment lying down.
Regarding bumper stickers- say what you want but if it spreads hate, as this original post was about, you can't expect people to not do something about it.

[mushie18]

i want a darwin fish...

[white_raven]

People take things too seriously. The Darwin fish is a clever parody of a holy symbol. I remember Lewis Black said that religion are politics are fine, but they become extremist when their followers lose their sense of humor.

If someone portrayed a pagan symbol mockingly on their car, I would probably laugh, as long as it wasn't just hateful. St. Paul pissing on the Star of David is malicious--it portrays someone destroying a sacred symbol and has no value as a piece of humor to top it off. A Darwin fish is just a play on a symbol to represent the Darwinist concept of a fish evolving into land-walking animals. It is not trying to destroy the Christian symbol, just borrow it as a springboard for humor.

The ICTHUS swallowing the Darwin fish is also humorous, because although it destroys the Darwin symbol, it is mocking the Darwinian belief in survival of the fittest. It is not a hateful image.

Religions have borrowed off of each other's symbols forever to create their own. Christians have done it as well. The pentogram is a religious symbol for both Christians and Wiccans because both religions have borrowed the symbol from a previous source. I see no difference between this act and the Darwin fish borrowing the Christian symbol.

People need to lighten up. There's a point where one can become too politically correct.

But, as the original intent of this post would show, the CBN bumper stickers certainly are hateful in their intent, and express no humor.

[TheRealPamela]

I completely agree with that, it was a good example. I think someone urinating on any symbol is beyond the perameters of humor, it is insulting and, yes, hateful.

Though not hateful, the "Truth" fish swallowing the Darwin fish is sillier than just either a Darwin or Jesus fish. OH, Truth! I see it now, that really shut me up. I will convert now. (how silly)

But seriously, I don't know of anyone that changed their life or converted to a religion because of a bumper sticker. I respect the intelligent ones and if I put AR stickers on my car, it is not with the notion that people will automatically see things my way. I am proud to be vegan and if someone has questions then I am glad ot help. All I can hope for is a conversation, I think most people who put bumper sticker on their cars have some beliefs behind them and are just sharing with everyone. (some are just for humour, I saw one about forks yesterday)

[TheMistress]

this is a great idea.
im gonna send for one.
Ive never seen them btw.

ohh and hipunk, do you mind if I save your pic and use it on my myspace account?

[TheRealPamela]

you're a pretty girl. hope the fur's fake.

[Erasmus70]

You seem to be pretty angry. Like, overly angry.
Of coure not all people are like this. But many are, and therefore I would have no problems putting a Darwin fish on my car.
..and that is why you are one of the aholes out there.

[TheRealPamela]

you mean ASShole?

and that's why you are the type of Christian that no one likes. You make all of them look bad. I am pretty sure Jesus didn't call anyone an asshole. How can you get all offended about a Darwin fish, but have the nerve to actually curse at someone online? Are you 14?

You are obviously one of the aforementioned morons and can't get the joke. I am very much against people desecrating holy symbols (once again, hateful). If someone had a Calving pissing on a Bible or Koran, that's unacceptable. But the Darwin fish isn't. Maybe you should go back to church and learn some basic decency and kindness. (or do they just leave that part out of sermons these days?). Do you really think I am going to be more tolerant of your beliefs after you insult me?

Thanks anyone who is ordering the bumper stickers. If CBN gets 100 letters back, that would be awesome!

Peace, everyone (even you, sweet little Erasmus)

[hipunk]

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Thanks TheMistress, for asking to use the altered image. I renounce copyright of that image of the altered bumper stickers. People, please do post it at myspace or anywhere and post it often. But try to give it a caption, like I did that explains how it was made from the free cbn.com sticker.
Here's the addy, (they may change it.)
http://www.cbn.com/special/marriageamendment/
or call 1-800-759-0700, to order the PROTECT THE SANCTITY OF MARRIAGE bumper sticker.

pm me where you posted it.



On the subject of ICTHUS, the christian fish symbol:


This was a secret sign scratched on the walls of buildings or drawn on the floor in the sand, to tell people where a Christian meeting was being held.



We know that. We know all about christian suffering. But when it's slapped on the bumper of a polluting, gas guzzling, behemoth of an SUV driven by an overfed, pompous, bigot in the x-burbs proclaiming the fact that god loves me and hates you? No one for a moment would consider that she was defacing the symbol. Hypocrisy in motion, literally.

Christians are addicted to their symbols, more so than the truth of their lord. I mean christians hate, and god is love. So they don't mind defacing the truth. However somebody messes with a symbol -they freak. But um doesn't it say something in the bible about Graven Images. No, wait a sec, God made a mistake on the 10 commandments, the second one at least according to the catholic church. The question is where do you place your faith in a symbol or in God?



also had jussst enough Holy Spirit in me to keep from slapping him right in the middle of an intersection.

[hipunk]

.


What happened to the civic principle of tolerance?



I can tolerate anything but intolerance.

.

[Erasmus70]

you mean ASShole?
First you made up a bunch of crap about some horrible people who DARE to constantly harrass and stalk you.
You describe it like a mob of horrid fucks are pushing you around, throwing bibles at you, interupting traffic flow and compromising safety.
Gimme a break!

Then you go on to mock Jews as being rape-pimps and how you can rape a jew if you just pay 'daddy some money' and all this.

Then you suggest that because some of these people (what a fake story anyways) are 'making you so mad' by daring to swarm you day and night and put their 'ideas' in places where you saw them (how DARE they) now you say..
... This is why you will be happy to find something offensive to Christians and put it on your car so they can see it.

You are just as bad as the rest of the aSSholes running around hassling people with insult symbols.
Just as bad as the CBM people now.
Your the problem now.

Peace, everyone (even you, sweet little Erasmus)
You are a hypocrite ( i bet you love calling everyone else that eh) but now you are the real hypocrite.
You say 'Peace Everyone' but in fact you actually want to (and plan now) to deliberately hassle and offend Christians and Jews.

If you were trying to give peace but failed thats not hypocrisy - thats just falling short.
In your case - you are delibertely preaching the opposite of what you have no intention of living.

[hipunk]

.

TheRealPamela, I know what you mean by fundamentalists stalkers. My brother lost his job due to a fundamentalist boss who was in his face with sarcastic remarks everyday. Those people are relentless. And I'm not the only one who is on to these jerks:


You are just as bad as the rest of the aSSholes running around hassling people with insult symbols.


BTW, decency and kindness isn't left out of sermons these days, but it is reserved for straight folks.

.

[TheRealPamela]

Erasmus
I didn't make up anything. The people on the corner come almost every Saturday, and we believe they are from the Lighthouse Baptist church. The women wear home-made dresses and wear their hair long. They peddle children as young as 5 or six with signs that ramble on about the end times, and do, indeed scream at people in their cars. I don't need to make it up, it's odd enough on it's own. It's sad though that they are brainwashed and hateful at such a young age and have little hope of open-mindedness or kindness.

And yes, it happens about 4 times a week that I or the people I work with get harassed. I don't need to make things up (nor slander people, as you have done) to get attention. I do not hate Jews or Christians and I am sorry you are so filed with rage that you are blinded....that or you are very stupid. The rape passage I am referring to is Deuteronomy 22:28-29. I was showing that verse to make people understand that you can't take everything very literally, and that adjustments have to be made in order to apply them to here-and-now situations.

You have things very twisted, and until I say I hate Jews or Christians, do not speak for me, because it is simply not true. I would also suggest not even speaking for yourself, since only asinine babble is being produced. It is funny to me how worked up you are getting.
It has been apparent to me from the get go that neither one of us is going to change views, but by your posts, you clearly are confused. I am sitting back and laughing at you and letting you make a complete and utter fool of yourself in front of everyone, as well as a poor excuse for a Christian.
Even though it is funny, I am growing tired of your silliness and wish you would at least refer to the topic at hand instead of insulting people.

Topic in case anyone forgot: Request the anti-gay bumper sticker from CBN then write them a letter telling them how denying basic human rights/spreading hate is wrong, and thank them for paying your postage.
peace

[Erasmus70]

Nice passive-aggresive backtracking Pamela.
Why dont you just give the crazies the finger.
I would.

Instead you are gonna slander and lie about CBN and put things on your car to give a little 'fuckyou' to all the Christians.
Way to go.

[TheRealPamela]

Anyone who would defend the likes of CBN is past the point of logical debate or sanity. Actually *look up* the the stuff that Pat Robertson has said. I will not further humour your fanaticism. If anyone sane wants to reply, then I will respond to their posts. Grow up.

[mushie18]

Erasmus, are you gay?

[hippypaul]

Wonderful idea on the request for bumper sticker. Have just done so and have taken the liberty of copying the suggested letter. It was so well said and unless otherwise directed by the author will return it in the envelope when my bumper sticker arrives. Have not yet decided what to do with the bumper sticker because I do feel that it would be wrong to deface someone else's property. However, I am sure I will find a use for it. They do ask you for an email address but did not reject my misspelling of mine. That should prevent a flood of spam.

[txbarefooter]

I still say use a gay porn email for contact * evil grin *

[TheRealPamela]

Hippypaul-

The sticker is *yours* once it arrives! bwahha! wipe your butt with it and send it back, who cares. (seriously don't send back anything gross like that, it was in jest)
And yes, all of you have permission to copy that letter.

May FSM be with you. Ra-men.

[Erasmus70]

Has it crossed anyones mind that, regardless of who started it - maybe this kind of 'flip off' at CBN is going to result in them now getting all the more fired up to 'show you next time' and this is just going to keep going back and forth.
Next time they come out with a bumper sticker with a 'rainbow' coloured swaztika.. then you come out with 'photoshopped' porn of Pat Robertsons kids being sodomised.. and they come out with a ...

When does it stop?
Has it crossed your mind that you might regret picking this fight?
Its all good and well for you to put on a a 'Spaghetti Monster' hat and think your really 'sticking it to them' but what happens if all you did was fuel their resolve and they end up kicking your ass that much harder.

The truth might be - acting more 'Christian' back to CBN and being 'one bigger' or simply confronting them with an honest respectful reply just might be the MOST effective thing you can do.
Ever thought of that?

[hipunk]

Has it crossed your mind that you might regret picking this fight?


No it hasn't.
But is that a threat?
The CBN picked this fight.
I can only defend myself in the best way I can.






acting more 'Christian' back to CBN



I wish you would do that Erasmaus70. Go ahead, write back to CBN and tell them what bigots they are. Tell them they disgrace the name of christianity. I am not a christian. It isn't my job to treat them like a better christian, not my job to show them the christian understanding they lack. That's your job. But you would rather defend their rights and chide us.

.

[Erasmus70]

No it hasn't.
I kinda figured that.

But is that a threat?
I have seen CBN about 20 times in my life and have absolutely zero to do with them.
It seems that its less a 'threat' and what is already happening.
This thread is actually about CBN antagonising gays in case you didnt notice yet?

The CBN picked this fight.
"He started it!"
Im sure if i ask CBN they will insist that it was 'Gay Orgs' who were the first to start campaigning or antagonising.

I can only defend myself in the best way I can.
So getting into a 'snear fight' and turning the 'battle of snubs and insults' up a notch in the arena of bumper stickers is really the 'best way to defend' ...errr.. whatever you are defending about yourself?

I wish you would do that Erasmaus70. Go ahead, write back to CBN and tell them what bigots they are.
I myself have never seen or heard of 'bigotry' from CBN but then again I dont watch it or keep up on it much.
Robertson wierded me out with his 'assasination' plan but oddly enough wrote a fantastic book on the Parables back in the 90's.
Maybe he is turning kook in his older age.

Tell them they disgrace the name of christianity.
I find that Im really put off by the wierd 'sugar-coated' homespunny goodness and whitebreadiness of these Television Ministry things from the USA.
It seem very insincere and pretencious and in a real way very condescening to most of the Christians who would be watching.
Kinda like Country Music Industry I suppose.

If Benny Hinn is part of CBN then I definately agree its a disgrace to Christianity.

I am not a christian. It isn't my job to treat them like a better christian, not my job to show them the christian understanding they lack. That's your job. But you would rather defend their rights and chide us.
Whats right is right.
If Jesus has a better and more effective idea than the one you are planning then stick to your guns and use it to defend yourself.
If you were to confront CBN by being reasonable, respectful and kind - you would not only have the very best chance of winning the best ones over - but you would really drive the negative ones crazy!

For the record - I would die defending your right to free speech as well as CBNs.
I suspect you would welcome legislation that would ban them from speaking their opinion?
Even still, just because you 'can say something' doesnt mean its not a downright wrong and assholean thing to say.
That goes for everyone equally.

[white_raven]

It makes me angry that they are saying what they say, but I'm not going to pander and try to explain myself to a group of people who are, best case scenario, insane freaks. They are a fringe group whose power (whatever little they might have) will soon fizzle out, just like the KKK is now almost dead.

[hippypaul]

Has it crossed anyones mind that, regardless of who started it - maybe this kind of 'flip off' at CBN is going to result in them now getting all the more fired up to 'show you next time' and this is just going to keep going back and forth.
Next time they come out with a bumper sticker with a 'rainbow' coloured swaztika.. then you come out with 'photoshopped' porn of Pat Robertsons kids being sodomised.. and they come out with a ...

When does it stop?
Has it crossed your mind that you might regret picking this fight?
Its all good and well for you to put on a a 'Spaghetti Monster' hat and think your really 'sticking it to them' but what happens if all you did was fuel their resolve and they end up kicking your ass that much harder.

The truth might be - acting more 'Christian' back to CBN and being 'one bigger' or simply confronting them with an honest respectful reply just might be the MOST effective thing you can do.
Ever thought of that?
It's like a joke dude - little gorilla theater - lighten up before you stroke

[Erasmus70]

It's like a joke dude - little gorilla theater - lighten up before you stroke
Oh dont worry.. but just remember your own advice when I point out that, if you actually stopped and thought about it - the joke doesnt work in the way you think it does.
Now my 'Magic Morphing Soup Monster' actually does work as a joke but the only problem is that the people Im teasing actually DO believe some Morphing Soup created them.
At least the comedy principle is logical where yours is not.
Again, the hilarious part is that you dont know 'why' your thing is backfiring on you and that = funny.

[TheRealPamela]

hippypaul-
I think at least half of the people that encounter FSM do not realize it is satire. If they go to venganza.com (or org?) then they would realize it is indeed a parody and that in itself is funny.

may he be with ye, arghh. Ra-men.

[Erasmus70]

hippypaul-
I think at least half of the people that encounter FSM do not realize it is satire. If they go to venganza.com (or org?) then they would realize it is indeed a parody and that in itself is funny.
may he be with ye, arghh. Ra-men.
Its not a satire or a parody.
Thats the funny part.

[hipunk]

.

my 'Magic Morphing Soup Monster' actually does work as a joke
If you do say so yourself.

Listen, this topic isn't about FSM or Majic Soup (I don't think), please, if you wish to discuss that, do start a new thread.

We were talking about those "Marriage = (man symbol)+(woman symbol)" bumper stickers produced by CBN.

The last part of this thread was my gorilla theator suggestion (http://www.hipforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2021001&postcount=3) to order a bumper sticker, cut out the man and woman symbol and carry them around and then paste them onto an existing bumber sticker like this:

http://www.hipgallery.com/photopost2/data/500/equalmarrage.jpg

Origionally it was suggest that one use the return envelope to send back a letter of condemnation. Some folks felt my idea was irresponsible, others thought is was great and with someothers it was hard to tell what they thought. That was the discussion before it got hi-jacked.

The stickers are available for free from
www.cbn.com/special/marriageamendment/
They come with a postage paid return envelope, which can be used to voice your opinions to the CBN directly.

.

[hippypaul]

.

That was the discussion before it got hi-jacked.


.
You are quite correct and I would like to reiterate that it was a brilliant idea and to offer my apologies for being sucked into a thread hijacking.

[TheMistress]

you're a pretty girl. hope the fur's fake.
faux fur is the best fur!

[hippypaul]

Yea! My bumper sticker arrived today. I printed out the above letter - several times - they might want to pass it around the office and it will go back in tomorrow’s mail. Lots of fun I urge everyone to follow along

[Erasmus70]

Hippunk.. if you dont like people talking about you FSM wherever you go - then consider that you have a gigantic graphic of it in every post.
Exactly.
Further more - it directly relates to the Gorilla Theatre suckass idea and this unfunny bumper sticker idea.
If you dont 'get' how on-topic and 'in-topic' I really am then feel free to STFU already.
Thanks

[hippypaul]

Hippunk.. if you dont like people talking about you FSM wherever you go - then consider that you have a gigantic graphic of it in every post.
Exactly.
Further more - it directly relates to the Gorilla Theatre suckass idea and this unfunny bumper sticker idea.
If you dont 'get' how on-topic and 'in-topic' I really am then feel free to STFU already.
ThanksMan It is hard to know were to start - Hippunk - I guess that is an insulting form of my screen name - been called worse - I hereby grant you permission to refer to me as Hippunk in all of our correspondence. I will refer to you as Erasmus70 since that seems to be the name you prefer. Alternatively, maybe you have me confused with hipunk however he does not have a FSM in his sig.

I love people talking about FSM that is why I put it on my sig. There are also several entries about it in my journal. I can also provide you with several links to other people talking about it. I do not recall every complaining about anyone talking about it. However, I am often wrong.

I think the gorilla theater and the bumper sticker were wonderful ideas that is why I followed through on them and sent in my letter today. I really enjoyed it. When it was pointed out to me that I had wandered off topic, I apologized. As to the question of you being on thread or off thread that is your business not mine. I do believe that I will decline your kind invitation to STFU. Or did you really expect me to leave the forum – give my computer to a good cause and take a vow of silence at your suggestion.

[Erasmus70]

So, the point is that you want to have a bumper sticker which ..errr... suggests that Marriage = Two Men.
Ok.
Well thats great. Just keep fanning the flame war with CBN I suppose.
The main thing is that you do want to keep CBN and Pat Robertson as the 'go to' guys for your Christianity.
You want the undecided public to think Pat Robertson is 'The American Pope' of Evangelicals.
Its working too.. secular media loves quoting Robertson even when it has nothing to do with anything.
A court case on 'ID Theory' and they show a clip of Kooks Robertson 'warning that state' about God having wrath on them.
You guys LOVE that.
So keep up the good work I suppose.

[hippypaul]

Do you feel like I pick on Pat Robertson alone? I try to heap scorn on loony ideas wherever I find them. I also expect people to heap scorn on any idea of mine that they find to be worthy of scorn. This results in an exchange of views. At times I find out, much to my surprise that some of my ideas deserved the scorn. The difference between you and me is that I do not keep my ego in the same place that I keep my ideas.

[Erasmus70]

Evangelicals know Pat Robertson is now a Kook. A Wacky Nut. Probably downright Loony at this point.
People like you actually want Robertson to be held up as the 'Example' of Christians because its easy and ultimately you hope that society does take Christianity as seriously as they should Pat Robertson.
Agree?

[hipunk]

.

I can't speak for hippypaul, and I wouldn't even try, he does a fine job himself. But for myself, I do care what people think of Pat Robertson. He's not only a kook, he is a nasty, dangerous, nazi kook who would just as soon see all gay folks dead. Our democracy and freedom has been inspired and upheld by poking fun at nasty, dangerous, nazi kooks. Look at the posters from WWII for examples of effective, and state subsidized, street theater. But, rather than join the fight to put an end to nasty, dangerous, nazi kooks like Pat Robertson, you chide those who do?

Sadly Erasmas70, you are afraid to do the work and hold us accountable for what is your duty as a christian: to put an end to evangelical bastards like Pat Robertson and the pope. Shame. Shame. Shame on you. I have said I am not a christian. Pat Robertson is a christian, and a typical example, perhaps a bit extreme, but typical of the ideology gone awry. It is your job as a christian to hold him accountable. (have you read the bible -have you read Paul's letters?)

It is said that if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. You're more than that Erasmas70, you are trying to water the flames of retribution. Your diatribes here have helped as much as Pat Robertson to establish the quality of hateful christian discourse that many of us have grown to know too well. Sad. It's sad.





-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-


Earlier I made a gorilla theator suggestion (http://www.hipforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2021001&postcount=3) to order a bumper sticker, cut out the man and woman symbol and carry them around and then paste them onto an existing bumber sticker like this:

http://www.hipgallery.com/photopost2/data/500/equalmarrage.jpg

TheRealPamela suggested that one use the return envelope to send back a

The stickers are available for free from
[url]www.cbn.com/special/marriageamendment/ (]letter of condemnation.[/url)
They come with a postage paid return envelope, which can be used to voice your opinions to the CBN directly.

.

[Erasmus70]

Pat Robertson is not likely to have any interest in Nazism and would be about as far from a 'Nationalist Socialist' as you can find.
He would also consider Hitler to be an AntiChrist Occultist whom his generation defeated in WW2.
As a general rule, Right Wing Conservative Evangelicals associate Hitler as 'Evil' and Nazism as something they were largely instrumental in defeating.
It would seem that the majority of men and women that died and served to defeat Hitler and rescue his victims would (by todays standards) be consider right-wing Christians. (back in the 40's most Americans would be considered 'extreme right wing Christians' by todays standards I mean)

All you are doing is giving Pat Robertson more and more power and influence - the more you hold him up as some sort of standard bearing example of what is the force to be reckoned with.
The majority of Evangelicals have done a pretty good job of distancing themselves from him and CBN and hence you dont see him running for President anymore.

Personally I rather like Pope Benedict so far.
Im not a Roman Catholic but he seems pretty good already.
Wierdly enough - he actually was a 'Nazi' in the real sense of the word.
Well Nazi Youth anyways.
It was mandatory and there is actually quite an amazing story behind that experience in his life and how it led to him being a Priest and Professor and eventually Pope.

[hipunk]

.
Pat Robertson is very much like Hitler in that he likes to rewrite history to suit his own purpouses. Also, Hitler never said that he himself was evil, just like Pat Robertson isn't going to admit it. They both stated that what they do is for the good of the people, but we know that's a lie. Pat Robertson lies.




Evangelicals associate Hitler as 'Evil' and Nazism as something they were largely instrumental in defeating.


More lies.

The Catholic Church and the Evangelical movement in Germany in the 1930's supported the Nazis and created doctrines to support the disposition of the jews. Hitler would never have been elected to power if it hadn't been for evangelicals in Germany. Sure, now they can tell it differently, say they hated the Nazis, but if the Axis had won the war the Evangelicals would be spinning a completely different story.





All you are doing is giving Pat Robertson more and more power


No you are by not doing anything to stop him and by spreading christian hate.







he actually was a 'Nazi' in the real sense of the word.
Well Nazi Youth anyways.
It was mandatory



No, it certainly WAS NOT mandatory! No more mandatory than joining the Boy Scouts. (no comparison intended) 100's of thousands of boys did not join. Many of them from the same village the pope grew up in. They don't look too fondly on the nazi pope, now either.

While you may think the story behind his life is amazing, I would be inclined to say that it's typical, considering how the catholic church felt about jews and nazis during the 1930's. The pope is a competent voice for the catholic church as Hitler was the voice for Germany. But like Hitler, he is a poor voice for God.


.

[Erasmus70]

Its hard to even imagine the way the world must look through your hysterical revisionist minds eye.
Your completely insane to think Hitler was some sort of Evangelical and Im pretty sure a lot of Christians who got killed by him would also disagree but anyways...

Pope Benedict was a child at that time and the interesting and meaningful aspect of this comes when he is an adult who is matured to think for himself.
I dont know if anyone on the planet has written and educated so much intellectual property on what is wrong with Hitler and Nazism and how it can be avoided ever again.

Sadly, you only need to take a read through the literature of a few of the 'Gay Activist' Orgs literature to see the 'Nazi Mentality' is alive and well in those circles.

As far as 'Christian Hate' I suppose that is some kind of Oxymoron.
If some Christian is 'hating' anyone then they are defying their own scriptures and in doing so its not 'Christian' at all.
So the term 'Christian Hate' doesnt really work at all.
But nice try at fueling your own hatred at people.

You do hate Christians right.. I mean, the ones who really believe in that stuff like Pope Benedict right?

[hipunk]

.
You haven't had your eyeglass prescription filled recently?

I never said that Hitler was an Evangelical. He abhorred religion, and felt it was a threat to his power. If you took the time to read what I wrote you would see that I said he had the support of German Evangelicals who wrote tracts approving of his policies against the Jews. But then, if you spent more time studying history rather then revising it, you would know about christian support for the Nazis.




the term 'Christian Hate' doesnt really work at all.


You can pretend it doesn't exist. The Nazi's didn't believe that they were hateful either.




But nice try at fueling your own hatred at people.


I don't hate people. I love people. I love people so much that I have zero tolerance for bigotry or the hypocrites who hide their cowardliness behind false teachings of God.

I believe that christians are misguided and lead into hatred, just like the germans in the 1930s; and I wonder if the pope is really the anti-christ.

Now you know.

You believe that Gays are disgusting and should be exterminated through some method, nothing as obtuse as gas chambers, perhaps a little genetic engineering would soothe your guilty conscious.

.

[Erasmus70]

You believe that Gays are disgusting and should be exterminated through some method, nothing as obtuse as gas chambers, perhaps a little genetic engineering would soothe your guilty conscious.

There is nothing from me to give you that impression.
Its something you made up and falsely accused me of.
Way to go Hitler Jr!

Personally, I do not believe there are such a people as 'Gays' other than its a sexual appetite and practice which someone may or may not be 'into' at different times or even all the times.
Its like asking if I think 'Smokers' should be 'eliminated'. There are no such thing as a 'people' based on a habit or 'thing you are into' or enjoy.

I would strongly suggest that you do actually hate the Pope and I wouldnt doubt it if you would have him censored from the publics ears - IF that were possible.

Note: I did not pretend your question (accusations) were somehow 'invalid' because they were 'what if' speculations and such.
Thats because Im not a little intellectual woosie like you apparently are.

[hipunk]

huh?

[hipunk]

.


There is nothing from me to give you that impression.
Its something you made up and falsely accused me of.


Of course there was nothing you said to prove that. I was mimicking your rhetorical style you ignoramus. You know, if you can make blanket statements about me that don't regard what I've written, I thought I would try it on you. Smarts don't it.

(ooooh, smell me!)




Personally, I do not believe there are such a people as 'Gays'


That is one fairy tale that is true. You should believe it, only because it's true, but bigotry has a way of blurring the truth.

btw, I didn't disregard your "accusations as somehow 'invalid' because they were 'what if' speculations"; I disregarded them because they were the illogical ramblings of a fool.



-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-


Earlier I made a gorilla theator suggestion (http://www.hipforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2021001&postcount=3) to order a bumper sticker, cut out the man and woman symbol and carry them around and then paste them onto an existing bumber sticker like this:

http://www.hipgallery.com/photopost2/data/500/equalmarrage.jpg

TheRealPamela suggested that one use the return envelope to send back a

The stickers are available for free from
[url]www.cbn.com/special/marriageamendment/ (]letter of condemnation.[/url)
They come with a postage paid return envelope, which can be used to voice your opinions to the CBN directly.

.

[hippypaul]

Let us see if I have this all in one place and give you a chance to deny any part of it that I have misunderstood before I reply.


Everyone joined the Hitler youth
Christians stood four square and united against Hitler
There are no such people as Gays
Gay sex is just sort of a bad habit like smoking
My Fathers generation (He and two of his brothers served one of my mothers brothers and two of her sisters served) were very Christian people.
I feel that Pat Robinson should be held up as an example of Christians
Right Wing Conservative Evangelicals see a national socialist state as a bad thing
'Gay Activist' = 'Nazi Mentality'

I sit awaiting correction

[Erasmus70]

Let us see if I have this all in one place and give you a chance to deny any part of it that I have misunderstood before I reply.
I notice you need a lot of hand-holding and step by step walks through these things so maybe I can help..

Everyone joined the Hitler youth

Yes. Everyone on Earth.
I think there were some 2.5 Million members.

My understanding was that 13 year old boys from villages were obligated to join the Hitler Youth when recruiters came to town.
I suppose you did not have to do that but I suspect that 'Option B' was probably not pleasant for Pope Benedicts Parents.

Christians stood four square and united against Hitler
Gulp! H.hh..how can I answer that now that you put a bunch of conditions.. gulp... errr.. uhhh

Idiot.
There are no such people as Gays
I wouldnt fall over in total shock if there was some element of predisposition, just as some people are born with a more or less predisposition to alcoholism. Even still, you have to actually develop the psychological vulnerability and then choose to drink and then keep drinking.
Even still.. There is no such thing as a 'type of person' who is called 'a gay' in any real sense of the word 'people'.
No more than there are a type or group of person known as 'The Smokers'.

Gay sex is just sort of a bad habit like smoking
Thats right. You have a problem with that?

My Fathers generation (He and two of his brothers served one of my mothers brothers and two of her sisters served) were very Christian people.
Yes. Specifically those people in your family were 'very christian people'. If you can prove otherwise then that proves that 1940s America was more non-Christian than today.
Idiot.

I feel that Pat Robinson should be held up as an example of Christians
If you dont then you should. He is a Kook and cant go a week without putting his foot in his mouth.
This would be IDEAL if you can hold him up as the example of Christianity because it would make a fantastic propaganda tool for you.

Right Wing Conservative Evangelicals see a national socialist state as a bad thing
As a rule and almost by definition (and I would argue 'to a fault') Right Wing Conservative Evangelicals would very much consider it a very very bad thing.
Most of these people cant even stomach a national socialised medical system.

'Gay Activist' = 'Nazi Mentality'

Yeah... I can definately see that.

I sit awaiting correction
Well there you go.

[txbarefooter]

christian hate = the bastard preacher phelps
christians DO hate, not all hate but the vocal ones do, some of Erasmus70's post border on the verge of hateful.

I was brought up in the church but started questioning the dogma. I opened my eyes and saw christianity as a vehicle for intolerance and narrow mindedness and hate for those not like them. In the past it has decimated indigenous peoples and their way of life to convert them (the heathens) to christianity. I won't have anything to do with that nonsense any more.

[Erasmus70]

The ONLY people who take 'Reverend' Phelps seriously.. or even remember him by name are Gays and Media People.
He wouldn't make it through the front doors of most any Real Church in the Free World.

You do not think I verge on 'Hateful' and nothing I have said to you qualifies as 'hateful'.
Some of you people carry around that word like its a bag of feces you use to blackmail or threaten anyone who dares not Speakthink properly.

Believe me.. there are a few types of people I really 'hate' but dudes giving each other 'BJ's dont even come close to getting any of my hatred.

[hippypaul]

Now that you have made a reply, let’s see what I can do

Everyone joined the Hitler youth
You are correct about this. Following 1936, it was mandatory for all children to join. The original Hitler Youth was the training ground for the SA and SS and was considered a privilege. However, it changed over time. I set corrected.

Christians stood four square and united against Hitler

You ducked this one and called me an idiot (how did that advance our conversation) You should look into the amount of collaboration of the organized church with the Nazi party I refer you to point 24 of the 25 points of policy and to the testimony of Von Papen at Nuremberg on 17 June 1946. Also, look into the actions of the Papal Nuncio in Berlin and the presence of Bishop Berning on the State Council.

There are no such people as Gays
Gay sex is just sort of a bad habit like smoking

You might want to look into the results of PET scans on Gay and hetro individuals, Evidence of Glucose uptake shows that Gays are wired up different from heterosexual people. These findings extent to prepubescent individuals so I have strong doubts that it is just a matter of picking up a “bad” habit, I also find it interesting that you picked smokers and alcoholism as your examples to pair with the “gay habit” that would not be pejorative would it?

My Fathers generation (He and two of his brothers served one of my mothers brothers and two of her sisters served) were very Christian people.

You should look into the effect that the great depression and WWII had on general religious behavior in America. My father who joined the military in 1937 to find a job always maintained that a preacher was a man who was too lazy to plow. My mother became a Freethinker because of the churches objection to women working in war plants. Everybody from Woody Guthrie to John Dos Passos wrote about the decline of the church during this period That generation took to the roads to try to find work during the depression, came as close as this country has ever gotten to communism, and sent more radicals to congress than ever before. After they got through WWII, there was a huge change in sexual behavior, social behavior, and a rise in general education due to the GI bill. They started the baby boom, the Hells angles, and the Beat generation. Compared to what we have now they were damn near atheists. You should look into the cycles of religious awakenings in the US we are in one now but that generation was a long way away from it. You also found it necessary to call me an Idiot again.

1. A common term for a person of low general intelligence.
usage note This may be used pejoratively, as an insult. It is a weak insult, however, and between close friends, family members, or lovers, is often completely nonaggressive.
2. A medical or psychological term meaning a person who lacks the capacity to develop beyond the mental age of a normal four-year-old.
You might want to seek out another stronger insult if you are using the first meaning if you are using the second most four year olds cannot type. Even poorly (grin)

I feel that Pat Robinson should be held up as an example of Christians

Your answer states that if I don’t I should – Do you feel that I have something against normal Christians that would make me want to use this Demagogue as an example of them. I think Christians are somewhat misguided folks in many ways. However, the vast majority of them that I know are not evil.

Right Wing Conservative Evangelicals see a national socialist state as a bad thing

Right Wing Conservative Evangelicals have made common cause with everyone from The Brotherhood to the Covent, the Sword, and the Arm of the Lord. Christian Identity Ministers have justified the use of violence if it is perpetrated in order to punish violations of God’s Law. This includes killing interracial couples, abortionists, prostitutes and homosexuals, burning pornography stores and robbing banks and perpetrating frauds to undermine the “usury system”. Sounds a lot like National Socialism to me. By the way, National Healthcare does not have a lot to do with National Socialism

'Gay Activist' = 'Nazi Mentality'
You replied “Yea… I can definitely see that.” – We already know that you can see that you said it in the first place. What I am asking is for you to support that statement.

[Erasmus70]

Seriously though, you really are an idiot.
That last post pretty much sealed the deal on it.
No offense.

[mushie18]

'Reverend' Phelps
ugh, i forgot about him, he visited my area a while ago..

[hippypaul]

Seriously though, you really are an idiot.
That last post pretty much sealed the deal on it.
No offense.
So does that mean you have no response?

[Erasmus70]

thats correct.
Im not going to reduce myself to your level of stupidity by pretending that there hasnt been a dramatic decline in Practicing Christianity in the last 65 years or the equally stupid notion that Right Wing Christians support National Socialism.

Also, I cannot decide which is the most dumbassed pretense ever seen flown by an antichristian?
I think its a Tie.

[Mychal]

What a cool idea! (http://hipforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2030716&postcount=45)

That's why I love this forum.

[hippypaul]

thats correct.
Im not going to reduce myself to your level of stupidity by pretending that there hasnt been a dramatic decline in Practicing Christianity in the last 65 years or the equally stupid notion that Right Wing Christians support National Socialism.

Also, I cannot decide which is the most dumbassed pretense ever seen flown by an antichristian?
.

I think its a Tie.
I love it when their speechless

[Erasmus70]

I love it when their speechless
Thats why you make stupid comments undeserving of a reply?
I think its clear that Church Membership and those identifying themselves as practicing Christians has declined substantially since the 40s.

If you want to insist otherwise (and get another response) then maybe you could offer some evidence of this contrary belief.
The reason I say that is because it would be a MAJOR DISCOVERY to Sociologists across the lands!
People would probably pay you for his information!

No?
Nothing from you?

[txbarefooter]

Thats why you make stupid comments undeserving of a reply?
I think its clear that Church Membership and those identifying themselves as practicing Christians has declined substantially since the 40s.

.....

and that is bad because ?

that would seem to make fewer fundies to condem my lifestyle.

[Green]

Pat Robertson is crazy.

[hippypaul]

Thats why you make stupid comments undeserving of a reply?
I think its clear that Church Membership and those identifying themselves as practicing Christians has declined substantially since the 40s.

If you want to insist otherwise (and get another response) then maybe you could offer some evidence of this contrary belief.
The reason I say that is because it would be a MAJOR DISCOVERY to Sociologists across the lands!
People would probably pay you for his information!

No?
Nothing from you?
You do not read very carefully my friend what I said was



You should look into the effect that the great depression and WWII had on general religious behavior in America. My father who joined the military in 1937 to find a job always maintained that a preacher was a man who was too lazy to plow. My mother became a Freethinker because of the churches objection to women working in war plants. Everybody from Woody Guthrie to John Dos Passos wrote about the decline of the church during this period That generation took to the roads to try to find work during the depression, came as close as this country has ever gotten to communism, and sent more radicals to congress than ever before. After they got through WWII, there was a huge change in sexual behavior, social behavior, and a rise in general education due to the GI bill. They started the baby boom, the Hells angles, and the Beat generation. Compared to what we have now they were damn near atheists. You should look into the cycles of religious awakenings in the US we are in one now but that generation was a long way away from it.



I stated that religion in the US runs in cycles as I stated we are in one now. However your statement was



It would seem that the majority of men and women that died and served to defeat Hitler and rescue his victims would (by todays standards) be consider right-wing Christians. (back in the 40's most Americans would be considered 'extreme right wing Christians' by todays standards I mean)



Then you changed your statement by saying



Im not going to reduce myself to your level of stupidity by pretending that there hasnt been a dramatic decline in Practicing Christianity in the last 65 years



There was indeed a decline in religion in the 30’s 40’s and 50’s during the 60’s the Jesus freaks and the more left wing of the catholic church brought many back into the fold. The rightward movement of the country during the Regan Revolution saw Religion becoming mainstream again and moving to the social right. At the same time, it began to make alliances to the far right movements who were reacting to the social programs of the 60’ and 70’s. These groups with there racist agenda (Welfare queens, feminazis etc.) made common cause with the religious right.

You might want to look into the social cycles of great awakenings and might see



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.I._Generation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.I._Generation)



The world today is not the world as it has always been

[hippypaul]

I cannot believe it. After (as related above) I sent ten copies of the suggested letter to the Christian Broadcasting Network I received a reply today. Along with a bold-faced appeal for money, they sent (you guessed it), another postage paid envelope. My conclusion was of course that they must want more letters (it is a large organization) so I sent them another 10 and postage has gone up. Life is good.

[Erasmus70]

It might be early and Im still having a coffee.... but did you just validate exactly what I told you in the first place?
Yes.
Yes you did.
Wow.
(and then you wonder why I dont even have to reply when you did it for me anways)

[WalrusKeeper]

Sorry mate, Eramus has his point. Good on you for trying though. Trapped between preaching to the converted (here) and the lobotomised (there) has never been all that easy.

[Mychal]

woops

[Mychal]

I've never seen the actual studies on how churchy America is. It would be interesting, especially how do you measure it? Who does the study and asks the questions? What do they ask about: Attendance, membership or people who say they are a christian? And what happens to those ppl who used to be christians, do they become: Jews, Buddhists, or wicca? What do you want to measure: Christianity in America or Religion in America or Spirituality in America?

The most interesting point here was made by hippypauy (http://hipforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2119418&postcount=76) "You should look into the cycles of religious awakenings in the US we are in one now but that generation (WPA-WWII) was a long way away from it."

Fundies like to point to the "Greatest Generation" as an example of fealty. They want to honer them because they fought for freedom. What we forget, and what hippypaul points out, is that they understood true freedom. That is something worth fighting for. They are remarkable for that.

[Erasmus70]

Much Respect to the WW2 generation (popularised as 'the greatest generation by a flaming liberal democrat btw ;)

My Grandfather is one of them and its remarkable to have him 'relive' those days whenever we were in the places where he signed up, trained and to hear him explain how they saw it as their duty to serve.
He served as a Chaplain.
To this day he lives with a sort of 'regret' and almost a strange sense of guilt that he was never sent to the front lines.
They actually felt 'ashamed' for not getting put up front instead of others.
An amazing generation who did nothing less than save the planet from evil.

What we do to honour that is our question.

[Mychal]

Right on. It's not right to marginalize or pigeon hole a generation like that.

But every body has got TO CHECK IT OUT (http://www.hipforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2021001&postcount=3) what a cool idea!

[SageDreamer]

I have to agree with Mychal about measuring Christianity or "churchiness."

Mainline Protestant churches have certainly seen their memberships decline, but the Catholics have held pretty steady and the evangelical Protestant churches are larger and more numerous than ever. There are also more independent congregations out there.

That's just a matter of membership. There are probably more people attending churches these days who have not formally become members.

It's not just a church thing. Membership in all sorts of groups, from civic organizations to bowling leagues, has gone down. People don't seem to be "joiners" the way they used to be.

I haven't seen any statistics, but I'd guess that there are a growing number of Americans who believe that you don't have to be a church member to be a committed or practicing or "good" Christian.

My sense is that however many Christians there may or may not be, Christians are certainly more of a vocal presence in this country than ever. There is more Christian radio and television than ever, and political candidates speak more than ever about their religious beliefs and experiences.

[hippypaul]

It might be early and Im still having a coffee.... but did you just validate exactly what I told you in the first place?
Yes.
Yes you did.
Wow.
(and then you wonder why I dont even have to reply when you did it for me anways)
Let me go through this again slowly



You stated

“I think its clear that Church Membership and those identifying themselves as practicing Christians has declined substantially since the 40s.”



And



“It would seem that the majority of men and women that died and served to defeat Hitler and rescue his victims would (by todays standards) be consider right-wing Christians. (back in the 40's most Americans would be considered 'extreme right wing Christians' by todays standards I mean)”



One statement says that those identifying themselves as practicing Christians have declined since the 40’s. The other statement saying that the generation of the 40’s or the WWII generation would be considered right wing Christians.





In point of fact



There was a decline in those identifying themselves as practicing Christians from the 30’s until the late 70’s. It has since risen to a point that a recent survey reported that 98% of Americans stated that they believe in God. We are in the mist of a “great awakening" at this point in time. With the rise of a wide spread right wing “Family Value" based movement. The funny thing is that these family values that are harked back to are often a historical myth. You might also want to take a look at



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McChurch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McChurch)



Therefore, to restate it once more religious belief fell then it went back up again. Now it is high. You will I hope note that that is not in agreement with either of the two conflicting statements that you made.

[Erasmus70]

I did not make conflicting statements.
They are in agreement with each other.
You are blind and retarded to keep pretending otherwise but thanks for the senseless effort.
Please stop punching yourself.

- however I should mention that I generalised a view that would be taken today.
Example: It would be a 'given' back then that soldiers would need either a Roman Catholic or a Protestant Chaplain.
It was a given that a Christian Cross was a burial stone.

What Im saying there is that by todays standards - that would be considered downright 'Right wing Bigotry' (or some stupid term) and exclusive and probably charges of a 'Theocracy' would go on.
That was a 'Given' back then.
Just as my Great Grandfathers built a memorial to the 4 guys in town who died defeating Hitler.
The Memorial (like all over the west) is obviously a Christian Memorial.
The Gov sponsored that and - at that time - that was a given and nobody would have thought otherwise.

I dont think I need to point out how things declined (from Christianity) since you already did it for me.

[hippypaul]

I did not make conflicting statements.
They are in agreement with each other.
You are blind and retarded to keep pretending otherwise but thanks for the senseless effort.
Please stop punching yourself.

- however I should mention that I generalised a view that would be taken today.
Example: It would be a 'given' back then that soldiers would need either a Roman Catholic or a Protestant Chaplain.
It was a given that a Christian Cross was a burial stone.

What Im saying there is that by todays standards - that would be considered downright 'Right wing Bigotry' (or some stupid term) and exclusive and probably charges of a 'Theocracy' would go on.
That was a 'Given' back then.
Just as my Great Grandfathers built a memorial to the 4 guys in town who died defeating Hitler.
The Memorial (like all over the west) is obviously a Christian Memorial.
The Gov sponsored that and - at that time - that was a given and nobody would have thought otherwise.

I dont think I need to point out how things declined (from Christianity) since you already did it for me.
There was a Jew or four in WWII BTW

In addition, you are still missing the point that religious belief at this point in time 1/19/2006 in the US is higher than it was in WWII. Also, FYI my dad's dog tags like many others said NONE



Information from Wikiquote (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wikiquote:Wikiquote)



Franklin Delano Roosevelt (January 30 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_30), 1882 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1882) – April 12 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_12), 1945 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1945)), 32nd President of the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_United_States) (1933-1945)



Has one quote that references religion and that is in a formal sense






Hostilities exist. There is no blinking at the fact that our people, our territory and our interests are in grave danger. With confidence in our armed forces, with the unbounding determination of our people, we will gain the inevitable triumph, so help us God.


George Walker Bush (born July 6 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_6), 1946 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1946)) is the 43rd and current President (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_United_States) of the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States).



Has 14 quotes that reference religion – they include



"And we base it, our history, and our decision making, our future, on solid values. The first value is, we're all God's children



"Today I call upon the Congress to promptly pass, and to send to the states for ratification, an amendment to our Constitution defining and protecting marriage as a union of man and woman as husband and wife."



"Freedom is the Almighty God's gift to every man and woman."




Well, the jury is still out on evolution, you know. George W. Bush answering a question regarding the case about how the evolution of man should be thought in schools. September 2005
In the televised Republican presidential debate held in Des Moines, Iowa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Des_Moines%2C_Iowa) on December 13, 1999, all of the participating candidates were asked: “What political philosopher or thinker do you most identify with and why?” Unlike other candidates that cited former presidents, Bush responded "Christ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ), because he changed my heart." His decision to name a religious figure generated some criticism - even among Christian conservatives such as Alan Keyes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Keyes).

[Erasmus70]

What you should do is also find similarities between leaders of Atheist / Agnostic leaders from the 40s and then again from now in 2006.
That will make even more sense.
(really?)

Can you even IMAGINE a US Politician back in the 40s even suggesting that homosexuals were 'just like everyone else' and then actually saying he believed that the definition of Marriage should include 'gay marriages?

Can you even IMAGINE something like that even from the most 'liberal' of Democrat.

Now imagine what you think of a politician in 2006 who believes homosexuality is abnormal and they out never be allowed marriage rights?
What would you call them?
A 'Right Wing Conservative'.
and yet that would have been by far an wide the 'given' opinion in the 40s.

But anyways.. I swear you are totally fucking this up - even worse - each time you keep trying at it.
Just relax.
Stop trying to make this idea of yours fit somehow.
Its not working and nobody even cares to persue it.
Just let it go.

[hippypaul]

Let’s see you are saying that FDR, who lived in an open marriage with a bisexual wife, was a 'Right Wing Conservative'. Why of course he was, how stupid of me not to have seen it at once.

[Erasmus70]

There were Opium Addicts back in the 40s too.
So the problem is no worse than what we see in 2006.
Right?
Idiotic.


Edit: Meant to say 'Idiotic' even though you may very well be an Idiot as well.
However 'Idiotic' is my point.
Thx

[Mychal]

Um ... what is the topic of this thread anyway?

[Erasmus70]

Its about accusing CBN of being 'Hateful' because they do not want to extend Marriage Rights to Same-Sex Couples.

This of course does NOT apply the other way around because its never 'Hateful' to say or do anything towards CBN.
(Since their wrong .. right?)

So ultimately, its about starting a spiteful war with CBN.
Something which will almost certainly just fuel everyone into a downward spiral of contempt and or determination.

But hey.. choose your battles.

[hippypaul]

There were Opium Addicts back in the 40s too.
So the problem is no worse than what we see in 2006.
Right?
Idiotic.


Edit: Meant to say 'Idiotic' even though you may very well be an Idiot as well.
However 'Idiotic' is my point.
ThxWell my friend as it happens we are at a low point in both drug and alcohol use in the US at the present. You have got to read more history before you make these comparisons. This is the third time during the discussion that you have referred to me as an idiot. If you dislike me, you should set your computer to ignore my comments. Then you will never have to look at them. If you are going to have a discussion with me. Then why do you keep descending into personal insult. That is usually the sign of someone who is not coming up with good arguments to support their point.

[Erasmus70]

No its ok.
You already made a very good case for a decline in (what are now called) 'Right Wing Christian' Values since the 40s.

Its fascinating really.. some old skool Pastor were telling me how 'back in the day' that it was all Denominations that spoke out against birth control.
It was not a 'Pope' thing at all.
Thats was totally acceptable and a 'universal' opinion in Christendom to be 'against birth control'.

Nowadays you wouldnt think twice about refering to that as some 'Fundie' stance.
Yet a few decades ago that was 'everybody'.

It wasnt that long ago in Canada where everyone agreed with the Death Penalty.
Im not making an argument for or against it right now.
Just pointing out how that was a 'given' and now (in this country) it would be considered a 'FAR' Right winger 'Redneck' position to take.

[hippypaul]

No its ok.
You already made a very good case for a decline in (what are now called) 'Right Wing Christian' Values since the 40s.

Its fascinating really.. some old skool Pastor were telling me how 'back in the day' that it was all Denominations that spoke out against birth control.
It was not a 'Pope' thing at all.
Thats was totally acceptable and a 'universal' opinion in Christendom to be 'against birth control'.

Nowadays you wouldnt think twice about refering to that as some 'Fundie' stance.
Yet a few decades ago that was 'everybody'.

It wasnt that long ago in Canada where everyone agreed with the Death Penalty.
Im not making an argument for or against it right now.
Just pointing out how that was a 'given' and now (in this country) it would be considered a 'FAR' Right winger 'Redneck' position to take.On those two issues, I would say you are 100% correct. The public climate on abortion and the death penalty has shifted and someone who opposes one and supports the other is now seen as right wing.