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View Full Version : Church-state seperation and duality


TrippinBTM
11-01-2005, 11:53 PM
I'm having strange thoughts lately about the seperation of church and state. That's a new phenomenon, you know. Started maybe a few hundred years ago, I don't know if America was the first country to have freedom of religion and a generally secular society, but the whole thing seems to have started around then.

One looks back over history and sees a lot of bad stuff. But I can't help but notice that since we took religion away from the rest of life, more problems have been occuring. In the last few hundred years we've really begun to ravage the earth, wars are getting pretty extreme, "secular" (scientific) knowledge took off like crazy, adding to and aiding all our problems (better weapons made war more deadly, and also increased populations, so they bumped elbows more often).

It seems that this seperation is just further supporting the notion of dualism, the us-versus-them, I-against-everyone-else sort of attitude. Basically, the idea that we are seperate beings, alone, and pitted against everyone and everything else. Certainly this issue existed long before, but it seems to have been exacerbated. Not that I've done any real research into this, but it's how it seems.

One must wonder if having religion as an integral part of life would be a bad thing. Ancient cultures did not or could not see their religious life as seperate from political, economic, family, and other aspects of life. Really, spirituality was the foundation on which the rest was built. Nowadays, we've become aspiritual except for select days of the week; other than those times, we are drones working jobs, persuing our economic dreams. We have now institutionalized this dualism with the church and state speration. It is almost like we've torn the foundations away and are trying to maintain the rest of the building, like a castle built on air.

Still, I favor keeping religion out of government. I don't want a theocracy; not simply because I'm not a Christian (and you know it'd be a christian theocracy) but because it's in a way dangerous to mix the two things, they corrupt each other. But then, maybe the fact that they corrupt each other is a reflection on us as people and not on the institutions themselves. I guess what I'm saying is that the divorcing of spirituality out of the fabric of life as a whole is ruining us, and the world. Perhaps we don't need an official religion, but we need personal spirituality with us, all day every day. Like I read somewhere, the Native Americans didn't need a Sabbath to keep holy, because every hour of every day was holy to them.

Just some thoughts, please post your reactions to it, because I don't really have a question here. Just ideas.

IronGoth
11-01-2005, 11:56 PM
The foundation of a true religion is honest belief without duress.
Once you implement a state religion and enforce worship, you stifle other religions and at the same time demean your own.

TrippinBTM
11-02-2005, 01:32 PM
I pretty much agree. It's strange though, because part of me says we should all have our beliefs and live them all day every day, while the other part of me hates it every time Bush says God Bless America or when they pray in Congress, or having the 10 Commandments in a court. So I'm completely split on the issue, it seems.

BlackBillBlake
11-02-2005, 01:44 PM
English history is stained with blood as a result of the monarchy seeking to impose a 'state religion'. Even now, the echos of the past still resonate in Ulster and other places.

It is a formula for the worst type of facist state if a state religion is imposed. It's a way of seeking to extend control beyond the outer actions of the human being to control their consciousness and thinking as well.
Spirituality is a personal thing - I certainly don't want the govt. telling me what I should believe.

Beyond-the-Clouds
11-02-2005, 04:18 PM
Imposing a state denomination is a bad idea, but people now have taken it way to far to say that displaying the ten commandments or saying God bless America is taking away religious freedom. And I do mean denomination, because that's what the founders of America meant when they said religion; they assumed that almost everyone would be Christian. It also says nothing about separation of church and state in the constitution.

Sera Michele
11-02-2005, 11:28 PM
As a woman I DO NOT want to live in any era or place where religion governs society. Religion hass a tendancy to be paricularly oppressive to women and minorities.

I take a different look at it than you, Trippin. I see that our seperation of church and state has lead to an era of human and civil rights. The idea of equality has really taken off. Women and minorities have it better under our current ideals than they ever had (or still do have) in places where religion has ruled.

BlackBillBlake
11-03-2005, 01:19 AM
As a woman I DO NOT want to live in any era or place where religion governs society. Religion hass a tendancy to be paricularly oppressive to women and minorities.

I take a different look at it than you, Trippin. I see that our seperation of church and state has lead to an era of human and civil rights. The idea of equality has really taken off. Women and minorities have it better under our current ideals than they ever had (or still do have) in places where religion has ruled.
Sera, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Myself, I think it is only with the growth and development of secular society, governed by secular laws that most of the progress towards a humane and humanist society have come.
The trouble is that too often in the past, religion has been used as a tool of opression and control by ruling elites. It is only natural for such people to employ the principle of 'divide and rule' by using religion to legitimate persecution of minorities.

nitemarehippygirl
11-03-2005, 01:25 AM
... I guess what I'm saying is that the divorcing of spirituality out of the fabric of life as a whole is ruining us, and the world. Perhaps we don't need an official religion, but we need personal spirituality with us, all day every day. Like I read somewhere, the Native Americans didn't need a Sabbath to keep holy, because every hour of every day was holy to them.

Just some thoughts, please post your reactions to it, because I don't really have a question here. Just ideas.great post, trippin. i agree with what you're saying.

for example, saying grace at the dinner table is something generally not done by today's (secular) society. if i'm having dinner as a guest at a nonreligious household, i tend to recognize a distinct lack of ... mindfulness towards eating. people just get "as much as possible" and wolf it down without thinking.

without spirituality (and by that i mean, concentration, mindfulness, reflection), we are prone to corrupting the earth and each other. we ignore the higher elements of human nature and become vulgar and mean. we act without thinking, like stupid dogs fighting over a scrap.

this doesn't mean that we need to say the lord's prayer in school, but isn't there a way to teach respect and thankfulness still, without any mythology and hocus pocus? i think that this one small thing, giving thanks before a meal and eating quietly and meditatively would change our attitude tremendously and would transfer to other things, thoughtfulness towards others, thoughtfulness towards actions, etc. we all move so fast and think so seldomly.

TrippinBTM
11-03-2005, 04:01 AM
Nitemare, you seem to get me. Everyone else here, it seems, thinks I'm in support of an official religion? That wasn't my point at all. I was just musing about the loss of any spiritual center in the world. The idea that our spiritual lives are seperate from the other parts of our life is a duality, a problem. Especially if one views spirituality as a foundation of the rest of it (not a necessary view, though).

Bhaskar
11-04-2005, 02:05 AM
I understand what you're saying tripin, I agree greatly. In ancient India, for one, religion was never separate from the government or any other aspct of life, all life was treated as a spiritual sadhana.

The thing is, when religion and state are married, there must be very great level of honesty and personal purity. If each person lives their religion's principles correctly, there is no problem, indeed the country will become truly great and loved by all. The trouble is, what ends up happening is that people in power worry more about whether others are living the principles, and in trying to impose on them, forget to live out their own.