Non christians: what do you think about Thomas?

[StonerBill]

when i refer to thomas i mean the gospel of thomas

Ive posted this before but inchristian forum and personally, as i read gospel of thomas, so much of it rings true in my mind. While translations can be cumbersome, ive managed to find a lot of my beliefs weaved into these words, regardless of whether im interpreting them right or not. however, the more i read them (different translations), particularly the earlier verses which were probably kept in better condition, the more i see my essential philosophies of life shining through.

I see the use of 'kingdom' and 'space' or place as being not really like the christians interpret it, but as a philosophical and perceptual standpoint. as in, the kingom of heaven/of god/'the kingdom' is not really a place you go to after death but a domain of those who see the world correctly.

Jesus clearly used parables and metaphors and analogies to spread his message. (It is clear that there was a man back in the day, regardless of his message or god-status). I think logically he would also have use plays on words, in order to minimalise analogies into simplest forms. If jesus played on words, then the only proper reading of his words would be not only in the language he uses but by someone who is conscious of all the subtleties of the language. Translations, into english, by people thousands of years removed with incomplete scrolls are NEVER going to capture the exact essence of anything jesus said. thus, i believe a lot of the knowlege of the gospel of thomas is lost amongst ambiguity and truism.

It just fascinates me how clearly different this jesus is to the jesus of the bible. when i first read thomas, i was amazed because it was verym uch how i had percieved jesus from a non christian viewpoint... like a charismatic philosopher.

Who else finds interest in Thomas? Something about it that just seems so real.. like if jesus said anything, this is what he was talking about.

I could go through every verse and talk about them of course but im not gonna do that unless theres lots of people interested like I am.. i think any christian is kidding themselves if they dont at least read it (regardless of whether they believe its the real jesus or not)

[thumontico]

I haven't read Thomas, nor am i aware of any debates surrounding it.
Jesus' philosophy, in terms of morality, is no way integrally rooted in the supernatural. Love, kindness, selflessness, charity, and other things work positively in this world. It is sad the majority of humanity cannot be virtuous without the guarantee of immortality and comfort from something ultimately unreal. However, it is a fool who disagrees with reality, with what actually works (i.e. peace of mind, happiness). But, for the same reason, active ignorance to the origin of such clarity or to assign meaning to something unreal, is an exercise in blinding oneself.

There shouldn't be any reason that acknowledgement of the psychological explainations for the positive effects of religion and spirituality, should degrade its effectiveness. Assuming the effects are not rooted in one's desire for UNREAL comfort.

What in Thomas particularly speaks to you?

[the dauer]

As a non-Christian I really haven't taken the time to look at the Gospel of Thomas. From what I've heard about it, it sounds like a nice text. But I don't think it's very correct to try to legitimize a text's authorship simply because it feels right. A text can be wonderful without having been created by Rufus T. Firefly or whoever the man of the day is.

But then again, I'm not one to worry much about the authorship of sacred texts, since I deny Divine authorship of the Torah, and any other book, and see attempts to validate Torah or any other sacred text in some way as not necessary. There's a rabbi who said that maybe the Zohar was written by automatic writing, tapping into Bar Yochai. I just don't like loads of theology much I guess. It seems so unnecessary and bogs everything down. Streamline it, I say! Who needs intricate beliefs when we've got our experiences?

Ahem... So as to GoT, does it help get you places? That's a general question. That's all that I think matters, that the text is meaning full. I don't care whether Jesus said it or not, and I think it's probably unlikely he did, based on modern scholarship. However, it might be useful to see it as a book of the mythical Jesus. That changes the experience. I don't like confusing the experience with what scholarship seems to be showing.

Dauer

[StonerBill]

i feel about it in a way regardless of what the actual meaning is, as in, the words simply ring true through my own interpretation. in terms of saying theyre real or not, im not making any judgement of that sort. however if i had to chose, i would chose that it was more real simply because it has been tampered with less, as well as seeming more organic in the things talked about, regardless of teh content. teh content is ambiguous. the toics talked about and the general way that its set out on teh other hand is much more like a man such as jesus would be.

at any rate, i think you two should read it in your spare time.
regardless of who said the things, just look at what is being said and think about the context of its day and what it would have meant to the people back then.

thumontico, i agree definately with this idea that jesus' teachings should be regardless of whether youre christian or not. i think that everyone should follow jesus teachings, however it seems that people associate following a teaching with believing theyre true.

the bible has a lot of good morals in it for living together.

however the thing about thomas is that to me it sort of gives a behind the scenes glimpse that maybe.. jesus really didnt have faith involved behind what he said anyway, and that the church linked it in with believing in god; basically fitting in with what youre saying, and what ive believed for a long time. gostpel of thomas talks about personal spirituality, about seeking truth, not about faith. in fact, it sort of condems the idea of faith. jesus says to keep seeking until you have found everything that you can find.

its clear why teh churches would not want this as part of thebible because it contradicts most of the -religion- aspects of christianity. it actually portrays christ's religion as a purely personal, spiritual journey, and sort of sounds like what he would have learnt if you imagine that the theories of jesus going to meet bhudda on one of his journeys, regardless of whether thats true or not.


oh and to give an idea of what its about, the gospel of thomas is not related to the other gospels. it is not a recount of jesus' life nor is it given chronology. its just a collection of a bit over 100 sayings by jesus, or answers to desciple's questions.
some of them can be found in other gospels, which gives credibility, and others cant. sometimes theyre different spins on the way the MMLJ gospels interpret jesus.

[MollyBloom]

Are Christians allowed to say what they think about the Gospel of Thomas?

[StonerBill]

yes

[Colours]

I read the whole thing, then at the end read,
[Saying added to the original collection at a later date:] 114 Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life." Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."
and it was kind of weird.


some parts that i fancied
Jesus said, "I am not your teacher. Because you have drunk, you have become intoxicated from the bubbling spring that I have tended."


Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."
"It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' Rather, the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people don't see it."

then there were some weird parts, like
"Jesus said, "Damn the Pharisees! They are like a dog sleeping in the cattle manger: the dog neither eats nor [lets] the cattle eat.""
and
"Jesus said, "Whoever is near me is near the fire, and whoever is far from me is far from the kingdom.""

[TrippinBTM]

Thomas is a pretty cool gospel, and I agree with many of the sayings...that is, they resonate within me. It sounds much less "christian" and more like what you'd get in Eastern religion, which I find much simpler and thus more appealing.

Some interesting passages:

(3) Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

(18) The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us how our end will be."
Jesus said, "Have you discovered, then, the beginning, that you look for the end? For where the beginning is, there will the end be. Blessed is he who will take his place in the beginning; he will know the end and will not experience death."

(63) Jesus said, "There was a rich man who had much money. He said, 'I shall put my money to use so that I may sow, reap, plant, and fill my storehouse with produce, with the result that I shall lack nothing.' Such were his intentions, but that same night he died. Let him who has ears hear."

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gthlamb.html

[BlackBillBlake]

It's very interesting - too 'otherworldly' perhaps. I like the stuff about making the inside like the outside' & 'making the male like the famale and the female like the male'

[StonerBill]

when you read it you have to remember that its a translation. thats why a lot of it can be confusing. also gotta remember the level of discussion at the time. the world was all about simple relationships between figures and social structures, between man and environment, etc.

as for my oppinion,
"Jesus said, "Whoever is near me is near the fire, and whoever is far from me is far from the kingdom.""
he is talking about fire as in relation to the fact that the people around him were persecuted, but that if people stay away from him they wont learn.

"Jesus said, "Damn the Pharisees! They are like a dog sleeping in the cattle manger: the dog neither eats nor [lets] the cattle eat.""

i think hes saying the dog as in a carnivore, and the cattle as in a herbivore. when the dog sleeps in the cattle's eating/living area, the cattle wont intrude or go in there or whatever, but at the same time, the dog does not eat any of the food there, hes just sleeping.
the cattle could be denied food either because the dog will attack them, or perhaps the metaphor is simply referring to the status of teh creatures, or simply as if only one of the animals can be in the 'manger' at one time, meaning that if the dog is sleeping there, the cattle simply cant be there too, thus the resources are wasted.

[StonerBill]

as for the reference to mary's femininity, i think that passage especially must be taken into consideration different things that would be read out of the words when said, than now. as well as this, the translation may pick up wrong emphasis, male and female not necessarily relating to the fact of penis or vagina.

[StonerBill]

"14. Jesus said to them, "If you fast, you will bring sin upon yourselves, and if you pray, you will be condemned, and if you give to charity, you will harm your spirits."

this is clearly the biggest threat to the church. but i think you have to think of it in the context of the way jesus refers to his society. i see this as saying not to harm yourself or suffer for your religion, do not adress some higher being as if offloading your problems to god (because he talks of the answers as being everywhere, and in yourself, spirituality as a personal quest, not one of faith and asking for answers of for a better life, but finding answers, and making your life better by the way you percieve the world), and that 'charity' does not refer to the things it means now, but specifically to giving money to the church, who would have been wealthy jews most probably, who told people to donate money in order for god to love them more or whatever. just think hillsong.

[MrRee]

Hi StonerBill ~ just responding to you invitation from the other thread where this came up.
Putting aside all of the religious hokus-pokus, misinterpretation & mistranslation (intentional, incidental, or unintentional, whatever the case may be), and whether or not JC was an actual historically present divine person..........
I believe that there was archaic knowledge that was spoken throughout the ages which taught the truth of life and reality to those who truly sought to find. Knowledge of this truth could set anyone knowing it free from the "shackles" of the existential paradigm that prevails in the material world, as well as more importantly open the seeker to the great truth and power of reality. This archaic knowledge was taught in secret so as to aviod retribution by those who would enslave humankind for their own gain and power. Certain personages taught this knowledge, and the powers (& principalities) that be in the world put such teachers to horrendous death so as to deter followers, the myth of which is perpetuated (though highly distorted) in the christian relgion (one of the powers and principalities in my view).
The essence of the archaic knowledge was preserved for the good of humankind over vast tracts of time in order to pass on the truth of being so as to free people from the paradigm of a limited world view, and was hidden in secret locations when the most concerted attack on this truth & knowledge came about at the hands of the early to medieval christian church. The book of thomas is a remnant relic of such knowledge.
Thus my post in the other thread ~
108 Jesus said, "Whosoever drinks from my mouth will become like me; I myself shall become that person, and the hidden things will be revealed to that person."
Place this with the 'jesus' messages ~
Ask and it shall be given; seek and ye shall find; knock and it will be opened unto thee....
The Kingdom of God is within you
Know the truth and the truth will set you free
~ and you have a prescription for opening the mind to the truth of life and reality as well as a divine creative power (GOD) that resides within each and every person.
All you need do is put it into practice.
This knoweledge is the motivation behind my CDSubliminal products which are designed to greatly accelerate the process.
But the bad people don't want anyone to know this! and such people fight tooth and nail to rope as many people into false beliefs (religion).

Know the truth and the truth will set you free http://www.hipforums.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

[StonerBill]

i believe the wise knows only that he knows nothing, I see it as a continuous search of truth, that there is always more to learn. do you believe there is a truth that can be known in its entirety?

[MrRee]

i believe the wise knows only that he knows nothing, I see it as a continuous search of truth, that there is always more to learn. do you believe there is a truth that can be known in its entirety?From what you've just said I firstly believe that you might be reading something into what I've written.
My post is not a claim of absolute knowledge. Absolutism is a self-defeating paradigmatic mind-set.
One of the greatest problems with posting is that whoever reads the post is liable to read their own idiosyncracies, prejudices, beliefs, fears into the post. ie from theiir paradigmatic viewpoint. This happens so often that I never reveal my discoveries unl;ess personally requested.
Read my post as a sharing of a discovery. That is all that it is. Take it or leave it. It is not a dissertation on belief (paradigm). What I believe is neither here nor there. What you discover using the method as outlined in my post is much much more important were you wise enough to put it into practice instead of talking about it.
But maybe I've misread the intention of your post as well. LOL Clarify, maybe?

[StonerBill]

im referring to 'know the truth and it will set you free'. but i dont believe anyone can ever know the absolute truth.

so i assumed since you repeated the 'know the truth and it will set you free', because you believe so(because of what i stated), and so i was asking whether my interpretation of your post was correct, that you believe that there is a truth that you can fully descover and thus be set free of whatever it is one is bound by in ignorance

[Colours]

to me it sounds like jesus knows the ultimate truth in these passages. if youre enlightened isnt that knowing ultimate truth?

[TrippinBTM]

One must wonder if the "ultimate truth" is an end, or a beginning.



"Jesus said, "Damn the Pharisees! They are like a dog sleeping in the cattle manger: the dog neither eats nor [lets] the cattle eat.""

i think hes saying the dog as in a carnivore, and the cattle as in a herbivore. when the dog sleeps in the cattle's eating/living area, the cattle wont intrude or go in there or whatever, but at the same time, the dog does not eat any of the food there, hes just sleeping.
the cattle could be denied food either because the dog will attack them, or perhaps the metaphor is simply referring to the status of teh creatures, or simply as if only one of the animals can be in the 'manger' at one time, meaning that if the dog is sleeping there, the cattle simply cant be there too, thus the resources are wasted.
I think the point is that the Pharisees did not have gnosis, and neither did they allow anyone else to have it. They held the people in thrawl to them, slaves to the false wisdom they doled out in bits and pieces to the people, calling it the Law. They were unenlightened, and because they desired power, fame, and riches, they did not allow others to be enlightened either, so they could decieve, manipulate and take from them all they wanted.

[StonerBill]

i guess the manger is the position of resource (knowlege/gnosis), yet theyre not using it, and due to their occupation as authority, the people cant use it either



i personally see englightenment as perspective to view knowlege, not the knowlege itself

(light is shone on the knowlege so that it can be seen, the term englightenment making no reference to what the light is allowing to be seen)

[NaykidApe]

i guess the manger is the position of resource (knowlege/gnosis), yet theyre not using it, and due to their occupation as authority, the people cant use it either



i personally see englightenment as perspective to view knowlege, not the knowlege itself

(light is shone on the knowlege so that it can be seen, the term englightenment making no reference to what the light is allowing to be seen)

I think you may have nailed it Bill. An enlightened person can't see all of reality all at the same time, but he can see whatever part of reality he's looking at.

"Recognise that which is within your sight, and that which is hidden from you will become plain to you. For there is nothing hidden which will not become manifest".

[MrRee]

im referring to 'know the truth and it will set you free'. but i dont believe anyone can ever know the absolute truth.

so i assumed since you repeated the 'know the truth and it will set you free', because you believe so(because of what i stated), and so i was asking whether my interpretation of your post was correct, that you believe that there is a truth that you can fully descover and thus be set free of whatever it is one is bound by in ignoranceWell StonerBill ~ I think that such a truth existed once upon a time, but we inherit remnant directions of how to connect with the most important element ..... the divine creative force that "is within". The full body of the "true knowledge" was pretty much destroyed by the christian church purges etc however there are still available remnant clues to such gnostic works as the Egyptian Book of the Dead, Dead Sea scrolls, Nag Hammadi Library etc as well as other ancient religions such as those of Sumeria, Egypt, Greece.
I think that because the early christian church destroyed as many enlightened souls and as many gnostic manuscripts as possible, the actual process by which gnosis was attained was lost. Except for that method by which any one individual can attain it by application, and that is found in the clues as already posted.
I repeat the phrase "know the truth and the truth will set you free" because I truly believe that it was a clue for all mankind to take close heed that there is a deception at work, and that deception enslaves mankind by denying him access to the Divine Principle that lives within each and every one of us. Take note that religions direct prayer and attention away from the inner creative source/living principle and toward an exterior world/universe ruling deity.
The "truth" I believe comes when we connect with this inner aspect of "self" (the kingdom of god within), and is revealed in a living way rather than by any accumulation of knowledge per se. And that is another aspect of the "truth' that sets us free ~ it acts on our behalf when we ask, seek, or knock for it to open. That is to say, by focus of our attention upon it, it responds to our needs. The christians call such responses "miracles" or "answers to prayers", but I believe that "miracles" are more a matter of fact for those who seek to find the Living Principle within.
Know the truth and the truth will set you free is also a whole truth in itself. The statement has many aspects, each opening further as you search like petals of a living flower or an ever expanding fractal, as you may now better understand. Because it is a living principle, it aligns to us as we align to it, opening further the more we seek to find. It also instructs us to seek the truth, not the lies! This means that lies abound, but truth can be found amongst them. when the truth is found, it will be known, and a known truth is very different from a believed "truth", or a "told" truth, or an "accepted" truth. The genuine truth will be known, not said, so it must be a personal discovery. That is why people searching for the truth disengage from groups and religions and the like; because it is a personal journey and a personal discovery. In the end, it is just you on your journey in eternity. That is truly worth knowing.
Keep at it!
Hope that makes some better sense of it for you.

[StonerBill]

yes

but it would be nice to have more people on teh search as well, more people to share what each as learnt along their journey however big or small..

i like to inspire people but the more i try, the more i realise that you cant really inspire someone to take this journey, you have to wait until they have inspired themselves, and then you can simply impress on eachother what you have learnt

[NaykidApe]

Plato said something to the effect "Tranascendant reality can be experienced, but I don't know if that experience can ever be transmitted succesfully to another person".


Makes sense too if were talking about something that transends words and words are all we have to communicate with.

[Colours]

this pretty off topic, but in a nut shell, what is the difference between transcendentalism and hinduism?

[redryder]

unfortunately Thomas is left out of protestant bibles so i haven't read it... i might need to go purchase a cheap catholic bible, because there are several books that are left out.

[StonerBill]

catholic bible is no better. catholics are the ones responsible for the majoirty of the changes in teh bible! (not saying theyre good or bad changes, so dont any of you catholics come and shit on me)

just use the internet.

thomas is everywhere. many translations.

buy a book if you want, but you dont need to, in order to read it whenever.

Colours, hinduism is a complex religion concerning re-incarnation, where we continue to come back to earth in a new form until we have developed our inner selves to perfection and then go to nirvana; and incarnations (of god - obviously not called god) where god manifests as different beings for the sake of worship and communication to humans, and integration of supernatural into natural world.
transcend is a concept of many eastern religions that are based on personal growth, and not adherance to an established set of goals, as the western religions are based on.

as in it is based on descovering truth as opposed to accepting truth.

'transcendentalism' is the movement which occured when people decided they werent content with accepting the truths they were given, and strived to transcend orthodoxy and descover truth about their beliefs. the early 'transcendentalists' where christian, but they did not agree with accepting the model that the church put forth, and wanted to seek answers to the new age questions based on civilisation much different to that described in teh bible and such.

this is what i have picked up, im sure someone else can give a better description, more accurate, maybe ive said something wrong, i dont know much about them.

at any rate, theyre completely different to 'hinduism'

[Colours]

it just seems that the transcendalist oversoul is a lot like the ultmiate reality of hinduism. Or maybe transcend is broader than just belief in an oversoul, but im talking mainly about emerson and thoreau's transcendentalism

[NaykidApe]

unfortunately Thomas is left out of protestant bibles so i haven't read it... i might need to go purchase a cheap catholic bible, because there are several books that are left out.
the Catholic bible (the vulgate) has a few books that aren't in the standard christian texts but I'm not sure if Thomas is one of them.

I'm using a book called "the Other Bible" published by HarperSanFranscico.

It's got all the gnostic gospels, the dead sea scrolls, the christian apocrapha (the early christian writtings that weren't canonised), the jewish Pseudepigrapha, basically just about everything that was left out of the bible and the torah.

there are alot of websites that have the complete gospel of Thomas. It's pretty short, only 114 sayings.

One thing about the gospel of thomas is that it doesn't seem to be trying to get you to believe anything about Jesus himself except that he said some things that might be worth listening to.

It doesn't seem to be trying to get you to believe in anything, it's more of a manual for experiencing something.

[StonerBill]

Plato said something to the effect "Tranascendant reality can be experienced, but I don't know if that experience can ever be transmitted succesfully to another person".


Makes sense too if were talking about something that transends words and words are all we have to communicate with.
yes, because words mean a differnet thing for every single person. the concern MrRee has, that his words will always be interpreted differently to how he intends them, is this concept, i believe. as is my concern of people taking translations of jesus' sayings as if they are something solid, something that they should learn directly. people taking the bible literally. its utter foolishness, for humans interpreted jesus' words, and then other humans interpreted those human's words and so forth and so on. teh words can only be used as directions as to where to seek knowlege, and i believe this is why jesus used parable as his main teachign style, for it is the most effective way to convey ideas. if he conveyed them literally, they would make absolutely no sense to most people. he also uses many different analogies to represent the same basic things. it is the most effective way of communicating ideas impersonally.

[StonerBill]

It doesn't seem to be trying to get you to believe in anything, it's more of a manual for experiencing something.
which is what makes it so powerful!

[NaykidApe]

yes, because words mean a differnet thing for every single person. the concern MrRee has, that his words will always be interpreted differently to how he intends them, is this concept, i believe. as is my concern of people taking translations of jesus' sayings as if they are something solid, something that they should learn directly. people taking the bible literally. its utter foolishness, for humans interpreted jesus' words, and then other humans interpreted those human's words and so forth and so on. teh words can only be used as directions as to where to seek knowlege, and i believe this is why jesus used parable as his main teachign style, for it is the most effective way to convey ideas. if he conveyed them literally, they would make absolutely no sense to most people. he also uses many different analogies to represent the same basic things. it is the most effective way of communicating ideas impersonally.Exactly.

All you have to do is look at the primary mistranslation that most of modern christianity is based on, the openning verses of the gospel of John.

Most versions read: "In the begining was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God".

If you translate the ancient greek precisely and take into account the accepted definition of "Logos", as it was used by greek and Hellenised jewish philosophers it would read:
"In the begining was the power of God that creates and orders the universe,
And the power was with God, and the power was a god."

taken to the extreme (and what would religion be without extremes?)
you could say one trans is talking about a book and the other is talking about something more like the force from star wars.

[TrippinBTM]

Here's a good place to read all the gnostic gospels (Thomas included) http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html

[StonerBill]

there! read them!