Famous People Converted Into Islam [Archive]

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smallpenis

10-28-2005, 10:41 PM

Islam Attracts Converts by the Thousands by Jodi Wilgoren, The New York Times
http://www.alhewar.com/nyt_islam_attracts.htm

Interest in Islam mounts after hijacking atrocity (Guardian Newspapers)
http://www.observer.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,784241,00.html

ISLAM ATTRACTS CONVERTS BY THE THOUSANDS, DRAWN BEFORE AND AFTER ATTACKS
http://www.hakimquick.com/usa1.htm

Searching Americans Embrace The Logic Behind The Teachings Of Islam
http://www.islamfortoday.com/searchingamericans.htm

Increasing Number of Russians Adopting Islam
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2004/10/04/islam.shtml

Jermaine Jackson convert to Islam
http://www.geocities.com/IslamAwareness/Converts/Jermaine.html

British journalist Yvonne Ridley embraced Islam
http://www.islamonline.net/English/Views/2002/08/article12.shtml

Italian Ambassador to Saudi Arabia Converts to Islam
http://www.islamfortoday.com/ambassador02.htm

All i got from here.

http://sultan.org/articles/convert.html

jonny2mad

11-11-2005, 01:32 AM

EwokUtopia

12-19-2005, 06:45 AM

Muhammed saved baby girls from being killed at birth and freed many slaves. If you could get past your (all so common) Islamophobia, you would realize that. I know many devout Muslim's, and they are some of the best people I know. How well does an ex-Muslim apostate fare in Tehran? Only slightly better than a visible Muslim fares in butt-fuck Alabama.

No offence to Alabamans, the point is Muslims dont fare too well in the red states.

The world has much more to fear from Christian and Jewish fundamentalists than I do from Islamic Fundamentalists. The Islamic ones arent carressing the red button with their little fingers.

jonny2mad

12-19-2005, 02:47 PM

what proof do we have that he saved baby girls from being killed at birth, the main written evidence that survived from that period are islamic, and I would say they are a very biased account much like if the manson family had written a account of their early history .

you have mohammeds first wife who was a powerful older women who he may have married for her money, you have accounts of neighbouring countrys being led by women generals and admirals, you have haddith that muslim women were jelous of the freedom given to women in a neighbouring arab tribe .

this suggests that the position of women before islam was better than muslims like to tell you.

I do not think that islam or mohammed did anything for the position of women .

as for freeing slaves he freed a few, but made thousands of people into slaves , he taught that the rape of female captives was ok by god .

he had lots of personal slaves his example held back the repeal of slavery in the islamic world for hundreds of years ,in fact it is still being practiced today in some parts .

if you have a thief and that thief sometimes gives back what he stole does that make him not a thief , mohammed made people into slaves and he traded in people selling them for a profit so he supported slavery.

I would say that the position of open muslims in america is infinately better than the position of open apostates in iran or the middle east .

in america you have a media and a president that tells you that islam is basically peaceful, you have groups like cair who have millions of dollars promoting the same message .

you have the freedom to build mosques all over the country ,look at the number of mosques and islamic societys in the usa do you see the same things for open atheist apostates from islam in iran or saudi .

there are atheists in both saudi and iran I know quite a few in islamic states, but they dont tell people because either their family, or a neighbour, or the state will kill them .

you have public hanging and stoning in iran have you ever seen stoning this women is about to be stoned http://members.aol.com/colwillj/stoning2.jpg

heres a link to ex-muslim website where you can watch film of a stoning http://www.apostatesofislam.com/media/stoning.htm

and pakistan has nuclear weapons soon iran will have them to so they are and will be carressing the nuclear button too .

ask your friends how they feel about stoning or cruicifixtion they may be nice people but it would be interesting to know what they believe . how would they feel if their daughter married a non muslim or openly said that mohammed was a fake .

Putty

12-19-2005, 03:15 PM

Muslims must show the world that THEY can reign in the radical elements that are causing harm to themselves, their heritage, and their religion. Not to mention the innocent people they are killing.

You should not try to drag other religions in here to take the focus from Islamofascists. Most people will see through that shallow effort. We want peace now and this can start with the Islamic world.

jonny2mad

12-19-2005, 04:33 PM

what if the trouble is the religion, see my reading of it and islamic history is that the problem is the religion and mohammeds actions not some mad fringe of modern muslims .

The problem I see is irrational ISLAMOPHILIA, thats people having a irrational love of islam even when Islam is very unliberal and nasty ,often these same people also have a hatred of christianity or judism .

its quite interesting and tells you a lot about the racism of the people themselves, give you a example can you imagine what the reaction would be if say isreal or sweden started stoning people to death or cutting off peoples hands .

but the reaction of these ISLAMOPHILIC people is at best muted when they see this sort of thing happening in Iran or saudi.

I suppose they view iranians or saudis as some form of animal or lower being, its very odd .

Putty

12-19-2005, 05:22 PM

I don't disagree with you regarding the brutality and apparent narrow view. All people of all religions should end bigotry and discrimination. For now, lets stop the killing that must start with the terrorists who blow up civilians and cut off heads.

The Islamic people need to renounce their most violent members and then they need to work on brutality.

akdjfaskdfjasdjflkdj

01-07-2006, 04:40 AM

The world has much more to fear from Christian and Jewish fundamentalists than I do from Islamic Fundamentalists. The Islamic ones arent carressing the red button with their little fingers.Yeah but they pray Allah for these weapons and say they should be used to destroy the infidel US and Israel. Thank Jesus they nutjobs don't have a red button to caress.

EwokUtopia

01-16-2006, 06:12 AM

ok....lets go over nuclear weapons track records.
Iran- may nuke Tel Aviv and Haifa
Pakistan- may nuke mumbai and calcutta
North Korea- may nuke LA and seoul
Cuba- may nuke Tampa bay and Disney land

USA- HAS nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki.....may nuke everywhere else.

Why do you fear Iran so much? they have been involved in one war since the revolution, and they werent the agressor. Israel on the other hand has been involved in many land-grabbing wars since its foundation, and continues to opress and expell the people who rightfully live on that land. Netanyahu is far more dangerous to the world than Ahmadinezhad. Why do I say so? Iran doesnt border any of its enemies, Israel has made an enemy of anyone it touches.

jonny2mad

01-18-2006, 06:33 AM

Israel got attacked at its birth, there being a Jewish state is a reason for it having enemies.

my father was in command of a invasion ship preparing for the invasion of japan and without nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki we would have still invaded japan but I would think there would be very few Japanese left alive today if we had .

we could kill hundreds of thousands with normal bombing , using this new bomb gave the Japanese the opportunity to surrender and say they were beat by this new wonder weapon

The use of atomic bombs came in a context of us killing hundreds of thousands a night with conventional bombing , and this bombing of citys was practised by both sides.

The Japanese had attacked civilian cities in china half my family is Chinese and I have relatives who remember things like the rape of nanking, on the European side of the family I have relatives captured by the Japanese .

So I can understand people wanting to get the war over with low casualties on both sides .

I think our estimates of allied dead in a opposed invasion would be 3 million god knows how many Japanese would have died.

Since then the west hasn’t used nuclear weapons

Iran is a theocracy, its unstable , I’m not sure of the number of political prisoners but hundreds of thousands of people have been killed since the Islamic revolution , it doesn’t get the same attention to its human rights record that Israel gets buts that’s because you have a very biased racist media .

Basically the talking heads of the left are racists so if they see a few people being killed by Israelis who they identify as white people, they make a loud noise about it. but if they see much larger numbers being killed in Islamic countries by people they seem to think of as non white eternal victims they hardly take notice.

Look at the coverage of things like the genocide in Sudan, I have friends who are in students groups in Iran and they have tried getting support from people like Indymedia and other left wing protest groups but they are just ignored .

But they are facing worse oppression than many of the causes that the left highlight .
Eyes being pulled out which I’ve seen film of, fingers being cut off, stoning to death , hanging on trumped up charges .

You have for a number of years leaders in Iran making direct threats towards the west , they support people like Hezbollah who came up with suicide bombing

heres a film made by the a Iranian student group http://www.democracyforiran.de/Iran_Eng_HQ.html its worth watching

watch the film of the stoning in my earlier post its from iran look at that women in the picture also from iran ,and ask why all you ever hear from the left is isreal isreal isreal .

I mean if it really was about human rights you would think they would concentrate on where those rights are being hurt the most but they dont do that

whats just won a golden globe award a film in support of suicide bombers, little support from micheal moore and the whole left circus for films like submission or films that criticise islam or sheria, no support from hollywood even though theo van gogh death was a direct attack on free speech .

http://activistchat.com/phpBB2/index.php nice site to talk to people who dont like the theocracy in iran

EwokUtopia

01-18-2006, 06:05 PM

Look at Israels birth, it was worse than America and Canada stealing land from the natives. The Jews started a war with the Arabs before the so-called state of Israel even existed, and before that there was Jewish terrorism throuhout Palestine. Consider this, what if you lived in some peice of shit refugee camp in Gaza but your family used to own a large farm in what is now the jewish state. would you think to yourself "oh those poor people, they need a homeland, so they can have mine....i hope theres still more gruel today..."? Now I am straying from Islam, because, contrary to what you may think, the Intifada is not some little religious Jihad, indeed I know Socialist non-religious Palestinians who hate the Israeli's every bit as much as any other Palestinian, and if you were Palestinian you would hate them too. Face it, Israel resembles Aparthied South Africa more closely than any other state in history, the difference being that South Africa's walls of Aparthied were metaphorical whereas the Zionists have actually made a litteral one (that cuts into MORE palestinian land as well). The ANC had many terroristic tendancies just like the PLO, yet you demonize Palestinian resistance........tell me, what do you think of Bantu resistance? Howcome it has more legitimacy than Palestinian resistance? and dont you dare say because it want violent. There is a practice called "necklacing", and yet, IMO, this does not make the resistance against the Aparthied government a useless peice of terrorist shit. Palestine is the same, and Palestine will inevitably achieve the same as the ANC did.

Patience

02-01-2006, 04:58 PM

the problem is that if you wish to leave and do it openly your likely to be murdered

I wonder if you tell your converts that ?

also millions of people are leaving islam despite this, I personally know ex muslims in the uk.

look at the details of mohammeds life do you think that god would choose a man who had sex with children and made people into slaves to be a prophet .

Sorry, but those who are leaving islam arent in millions, their numbers are soooo low if compared with those who are leaving their religions to embrace Islam.

Aisha was 6 years old when her parents pledged her to be married to prophet Mohammad, she never entered Mohammad’s house until she became mature at the age of 9 NOT 6.(A GIRL IS CONSIDERED MATURE WHEN SHE HAS HER FIRST MENSTURATION).

Back then and even now in Arabia because of the hot climate girls matured early, take for example a 9 year old Eskimo girl, and compare her to a 9 year old North African girl, or an Arabian girl, you will see a major difference.

So Aisha being 9 would’ve looked like a 15 year old Eskimo girl. In hotter climates girls sexual body parts mature earlier than that of girls in colder climates that is why you see Middle Eastern teenage guys growing facial hair at an early age. Also girls mature earlier than guys, both mentally and physically. And back then not only in Arabia but almost all over the world girls were wed at a young age.

Aisha became mature when she entered Prophet Mohammad’s house as his official wife at the age of 9, AGAIN NOT 6. Also the life expectancy for men was around 40 50 years, and in pre-Islamic Arabia it was even shorter, because of the constant wars between different tribes. Many men died at wars and didn’t even make it to their late 30's leaving their wives and daughters behind.

So to say Prophet Mohammad was a pedophile is completely absurd!

jonny2mad

02-02-2006, 12:06 AM

well if you leave islam as you know you can face being targeted by muslims so people generally keep a low profile .

in a number of countrys it is illegal to be a apostate from islam , or to preach other religions or to point out what type of man mohammed actually was .

anyway aisha

Islamic law in the time Aisha was around said that only pre-pubescent girls were allowed to play with or own dolls. They allowed them to own dolls because it was thought usefull to teach them to look after a family when they were adults .

But having a doll as a adult would have been seen as having a image of a living thing

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151

Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

Aisha had her dolls with her when she married Muhammad.

Sahih Muslim Book 8, Number 3311

'A'isha reported that Allah's Apostle married her when she was seven years old, and (s)he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he died she was eighteen years old.

Aisha had sex with Muhammad when she was 9 years old

Abu Dawud, Vol. 2, #2116: "Aisha said, "The Apostle of Allah married me when I was seven years old." (The narrator Sulaiman said: "Or six years."). "He had intercourse with me when I was 9 years old."

Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236.

Narrated Hisham's father:

Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed (sic – consummated) that marriage when she was nine years old.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64

Narrated 'Aisha:

that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65

Narrated 'Aisha:

that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88

Narrated 'Ursa:

The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 41, Number 4915, also Number 4915 and Number 4915

Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:

The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter

also

Aisha was still playing with/owning dolls when she was 14 years old at the time of the Battle of Khaibar.

On the authority of Aisha (RA), that she said:

The Messenger of Allah (SAW) returned from the battle of Tabook or Khaibar (the narrator of the hadith was in doubt about whether he was told "Tabook or Khaibar."). There was a curtain covering her 'sahwah' (chamber or small room in front of the house). The wind blew a side of the curtain and uncovered Aisha's dolls. He (SAW) said: What is this, O Aisha? She said: My dolls. The he (SAW) saw amongst them a horse with two wings from scraps of cloth. He (SAW) said: What is this which I see amongst them (amongst the dolls)? She said: A horse. He asked: What is upon it? She said: Two wings. He (SAW) asked (in astonishment): A horse with two wings? She said: Didn't you hear that Sulaiman (Solomon - AS) had horses with wings? She said: Then he (SAW) laughed until I saw his molar teeth. [Abu Daawood, An-Nasaa'iee as-Sunan al-Kubraa, Albani (ra) says the chain of narrators of an-Nasaa'ee is authentic (Saheeh). As for the chain of narrators of Abu Daawood, Albani (ra) has also declared it to be authentic (saheeh)]

Shaykh al-Islam, Imam Ibn Hajar, Hafiz, Commander of the Faithful in Hadith, Qadi of Egypt, concluded that Aisha was PRE-PUBESCENT when she was 14 years old.

Could you please show proof that this little girl playing with dolls had reached puberty when mohammed started having sex with her .

EwokUtopia

02-02-2006, 04:55 AM

Why do you sacrifice so much of your time to these posts that just confirm your hatred for Muslims? Like that one post, you either copied-and-pasted it from some radical republican website, or you spent 10-20 minitues spreading your hate on what is meant to be a non-hateful forum. I am not a Muslim, nor have I enough time right now to look into counters to your arguements. I will say this though, and I know it doesnt respond to your arguements at all, but considering your amounts of digression I think it is in order. I ask you one question...that is do you hate Muslim people? If you respond no, then you must realize how much your accusations of their spiritual guide (and under Islam, middle eastern civilization flourished, and was far more advanced than anything Europe, Asia, or even Mesoamerica had to offer) offend Muslim people personally. When you say these things, you are taking a shit on what millions of good people have to thank for their lives, because Islam does help people strive to be the most good they can be. Of course there are those who misuse the teachings of Islam to fulfil their own desires, but that can be said of any religion, including athiesm. So either explain your hatred of the muslim people, or go ahead and copy&paste more bullshit from the Heritage Foundation's website. Frankly, I grow tired of trying to respond to your hateful posts.

stoney69

02-02-2006, 06:24 AM

this, from one of the other hate threads of jonny who's 2 mad at muslims/world

jonny on the other hand has had the habit of comin up with absurd rhetoric without back-up and is very fond of usin islamic/arabic names to prove to the unsuspectors how learned he is when it comes to islam. he also tends to argue (not debate) by widenin the topics rather than stickin to the one bein discussed, puttin people off who'd rather not be bothered exhaustin their energy on someone whose drive seems to be one of hate, not the will to discuss/debate or even admit when he may go wrong and does

..he then justifies (to himself and others) how no one's been able to "debate" the topic with him over the years, which proves how right he is!
keeps confirmin it, dont he ?

Erasmus70

02-02-2006, 07:08 AM

One thing that is ridiculous - trying to create a Muslim "apologetic' which means 'barter down' the Aisha rationale to have us believe that Muhammed did anything besides have sex with a NINE YEAR OLD.

Look, there is a theory and concern out there that MODERN factors have and are pushing back the age of puberty for girls.
There is real concern this is caused by modern diets (hormones in foods etc) as well as exposure to hypersexual stimulus (boy bands for example) and in particular the stress of an ever 'faster' and more stimulating lifestyle we are all part of now.

Even in this case, Eleven is considered extremely young for menstruation to begin (but its been happening more lately) and 10 is virtually unheard of.
Nine is NOT gonna be happening and if it did it would be considered a MEDICAL CONDITION and when it does happen (more NOWadays) there has been a great deal of concern over how and why estrogen levels are so high and children may be tested for tumours or gland malfunctions.

Even in these cases, the child is not developed yet. This is not the same as a the 13-15 year old girls we see who have basically already developed their bodies and are physically ready for intercourse.

The Nine year old is still a CHILD just as much as the 10 year old boy with a couple of pubic hairs and ability to get some erections is not actually developed or would be sexually attractive to a grown up (and sane) woman.

There is a rare (very rare) disease in which some children have been found with early puberty.. actually as little toddlers.
This is a rare medical condition and again, this does not mean when they are Nine they have developed female bodies and are ready for sexual intercourse with a 50 year old man.

Seriously, Muslims need to either give up on these Haddith (and many have) or just come clean and straight out admit that Muhammed was having sex with nine year olds and dont make some ridiculous story about Desert Heat baking children into adults at some early age.

Even the Haddith itself is clear she was not miraculously advanced in puberty (if she was I could see an explanation here?) but instead she is a pre-pubescent, undeveloped Nine year old girl.
He is Fifty
He has sexual intercourse with the Nine year old.

Heck.. thats not nearly as sick as when Muhammeds men murder parents and then take their Boys as 'loot' as a reward from Allah.
I HOPE that is wrong!?

stoney69

02-02-2006, 09:30 AM

You cant label someone a pedophile if marriage to girls so young is the social norm.

Mohammed did nothing unusual, and cant be singled out. The whole country were pedophiles for that matter.

Joseph was a pedophile too then huh?

how about keepin just one thread open for the same topic!
http://www.hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9113&page=3

jonny2mad

02-02-2006, 11:59 AM

I see that none of you people have come up with any proof that aisha had reached puberty .
while I on the other hand have given you proof that she had not .

ewok utopia as I have said before I am working on setting up a website that gives the counter argument to people that claim that there was a islamic golden age, or that islam in its self as helped the civilisation of the people who have lived in islamic majority countrys .

in fact we will show that islam as acted as a break, that it has retarded the development of what were in many cases some of the most developed areas of the world .

anyway if you look at what you have had to say its basically been a Argumentum ad hominem attack on me, which is a debating Fallacie whatever my motives are makes no difference to what mohammed did .

also in the charge of pedophilia you have mohammed saying he dreamed about aisha brought to him wrapped in a cloth, that to me that would suggest he was dreaming of a very young child thats in sahih haddith, I can dig it up if you like but have posted it before .

we also dont know how many slave children mohammed owned there is a list of some of his slaves, but as he bought and sold people we cant be sure how many children he owned .
as a right hand possession you could rape your slave so we have a whole source there of possible other victims

we have him again in sahih haddith saying

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: When I got married, Allah's Apostle said to me, "What type of lady have you married?" I replied, "I have married a matron' He said, "Why, don't you have a liking for the virgins and for fondling them?" Jabir also said: Allah's Apostle said, "Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you might play with her and she with you?' Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 17.

in this haddith hes complaining to a man that instead of marrying a adult women he should have married a young girl , and he says that he himself likes fondling young girls and virgins .

again in The Life of Muhammad" (Sirat Rasul Allah) by Ibn Ishaq, which I dont usually quote from as its not sahih haddith or the quran , but it does seem to confirm the general case that he was a pedophile it says

Suhayli, ii. 79: In the riwaya of Yunus I. I. recorded that the apostle saw her (Ummu'lFadl) when she was a baby crawling before him and said, 'If she grows up and I am still alive I will marry her.' But he died before she grew up and Sufyan b. al-Aswad b. 'Abdu'l-Asad al-Makhzumi married her and she bore him Rizq and Lubab...1

this appears to have occured 2 years after the battle of badr and he would have been about 55 so two years after he married aisha.

Im sorry that Im taking so long to reply to posts as am very busy best wishes to you all jon

stoney69

02-02-2006, 12:59 PM

jonny on the other hand has had the habit of comin up with absurd rhetoric without back-up and is very fond of usin islamic/arabic names to prove to the unsuspectors how learned he is when it comes to islam. he also tends to argue (not debate) by widenin the topics rather than stickin to the one bein discussed, puttin people off who'd rather not be bothered exhaustin their energy on someone whose drive seems to be one of hate, not the will to discuss/debate or even admit when he may go wrong and does

..he then justifies (to himself and others) how no one's been able to "debate" the topic with him over the years, which proves how right he is!

and still ..goes on confirmin it!

jonny2mad

02-02-2006, 12:59 PM

also this is a free speech website ,

I see what Im doing as spreading love by encouraging muslims to stop following such a very nasty immoral man and a false religion .

if cat stevens had been given the information that mohammed was a pedophile ect ect, maybe he wouldnt have become a muslim and hounded a british author into hiding for twenty years .

he showed as far as I know no wish to watch people burn to death before becoming a muslim so I would say its had a very bad effect on him .

as thats what he said he wanted to do to salman rushdie on british tv .

who can tell there may be people reading what I write who say yes I want to follow a pedophile, this mohammed what with is slavery, robbery, and chopping peoples hands off, sounds a great guy .
or people are being unfair to islam, being a muslim is chic and radical, and they have such interestings clothes and hats I shall therefore become a muslim .

but thats up to them ,I will have done my part and pointed out why I think the religion is false

jonny2mad

02-02-2006, 01:12 PM

stoney if your a muslim prove that aisha had reached puberty

as you know Im using the correct sources, so anyone reading you saying Im not can find out for themselves .

sahih haddith are considered authentic, the quran is considered authentic the translations were done by muslims

stoney69

02-02-2006, 02:31 PM

you have too much hate in you to even begin to understand the concept and message of islam ..if/when you have managed to get rid of it ..i'll be more than glad to engage with you

peace and guidance!

EwokUtopia

02-03-2006, 12:27 AM

Ya dude, you are simply wasting your time if you are trying to convince muslims to convert and forsake their way of life, which for the most part, has been a positive factor in the makeup of their lives. If you cant even convince me that Islam is bad (I am not a Muslim by any stretch of the imagination, but I am on good terms with the Islamic community, which I have judged to be by and large a good community) what the hell do you think you are going to accomplish? Lets talk about Athiesm. It is a peice of crap, not because it rejects the idea of any specific God or Gods, but because it just throws spirituality in the trash. Tell me something from your Athiestic point of view...why does existance have to exist? do you not believe that there is some inexplicable force behind the universe and its workings? And of you, if you have nothing that resembles a soul, and your existance isnt anything special at all, why not kill yourself right now? in the end it would be the exact same as if you lived the happiest concievable life and died peacefully at an old age. No, there is much more to existance than that, and I cant even begin to put it into words, for words can never describe the ultimate and infinite, all I am able to say is that there is more than the simple materialistic worldview without any real point that Atheism has to offer. I am not a Muslim, but I do support whole-heartedly the Islamic belief, as it tells people that there is some goodness to their existance, and they should work together as brothers and strive for a better world. If you can not respect that than you are completely intolerant and you might as well be some pro-war counter-protester involved with the heritage foundation.

A-Shwa-Child

02-03-2006, 12:30 AM

WHO CARES... Stop gloting...
Well theres my two cents... :D

Erasmus70

02-03-2006, 12:54 AM

I have to agree with Johny2mads historical analysis on the 'Islamic Utopia' being highly over-rated.
Dont get me wrong - we know that as Islam went forward (outward) and conquered many nations, it also collected treasuries of knowledge and took over lands which were developing fine cultures.
All of this came under Islams control and for example, we know that Muhammed had access to some of the greatest Greek Scholars (we see that in the Koran itself) and many other libraries he conquered too.

But.. the 'story' you hear from some Muslim apologists of this advanced Utopia which was like some overwhelming advancement in human achievement is simply not true.
Often the way to make it sound more sophisticated is to overexggerate how 'primitive' people outside of Utopia were.
Outrageous stories of Europe being nothing short of a pigs trough with dumb apes wallowing in mud, unable to do basic mathematics or unsanitary.
(that is said of other cultures too like the Hindus and the Chinese)

Im entirely happy to give credit but I want to give credit where its due - not where a story has been made up.

EwokUtopia

02-03-2006, 03:12 AM

Europe at the time was in dark age. The once advanced and relatively enlightened (for the record, I do not believe any civilization to date has been truly enlightened) Greeks and Romans were gone, but for the remnant of the Byzantines. The once (very relatively) peaceful tribes of northern europe were corrupted with religious and imperial expansionism resulting in the quite frankly evil Frankish Empire that murdered tens of thousands of Germannic and Celtic peoples who were unwilling to abandon their indegenous beliefs (which are only now begining to resurface, and I for one say godspeed to them). Europe was by and large a very savage place at the time of Muhammed. Before Muhammed, Arabia equally, if not more savage. Female babies were burried in sand so that the fathers wouldnt have to care for them, as females were seen as a liability. The different tribes vied for power in the cities, much like warlords in a war-torn anarchic states(not idealogical anarchy, but rather anarchy as the result of war and oppression). Muhammed put an end to this. He united the tribes of Arabia and the tribal wars stopped. He also ordered his men not to kill anybody who did not fight, as it says in the Qu'ran (with a rough translation for us non-arabic speakers) "...And fight [those who fight against you] untill there is no more oppression and justice prevails. But if they cease, let there be no more hostility, except to those who still practise oppression" Surah 2:194. After Muhammed's death, the Muslim's expanded outside Arabia, bringing an end to the oppressive rule of the Byzantines and Sassanids in many areas. They expanded their religion, but not by force. For example, Egypt maintained a Christian majority until 700 years after the Islamic conquest of it. Christians were far more tolerated under Islamic Moorish rule than Muslims and Jews were treated under Christian Castilian rule. There have been bad Islamic rules, yes, but they are far fewer in number to the bad dynasties of the far east and the west. Europe at the time wa not filled with dumb apes wallowing in the mud, as you claim I believe, but they were in a very unadvanced state during the rise of Islam.Right now, Islam is going through a dark age with western imperialism and oppressive oil kingdoms, but this is not because of Islam. The taliban and the mullah's do not represent Islam at all, they misuse it, and Al Qaeda is no more of a spokesperson of true Islam than the Ku Klux Klan is a representitive of true Protestantism. Do not confuse the fundamentalists for the good aspects of the religion which have brought many great things to this world.

jonny2mad

02-03-2006, 05:02 AM

ewok I dont think I will convince you that islam is bad because your so narrow minded.

whether your a muslim or not doesnt really matter because as Ive told you before you suffer from irrational islamophilia .

there is no proof that children were buried alive and as Ive pointed out islam did not improve the lot of women .

mohammed didnt end tribal war he increased it then he ethnically cleaned pagans and jews out of saudi .
islam was mostly spread by the sword especially in the early stages .

I could go on but Im tired as its nearly 4 in the morning, so far neither of you or our lady poster have shown that aisha had reached puberty before mohammed had sex with her or disproved my evidence that she hadnt .

just think of the sort of man that you are defending I hope you feel proud of yourself

EwokUtopia

02-03-2006, 08:09 AM

ewok I dont think I will convince you that islam is bad because your so narrow minded.

No, I would be narrow minded if I was to conclude that a billion people are evil people with evil beliefs. You can not flatly say that any belief (which does not involve worship of money or manditory kool-aide drinking) is "bad", that is being overly simplistic and narrow minded.

whether your a muslim or not doesnt really matter because as Ive told you before you suffer from irrational islamophilia . It is not irrational at all, nor is it a philia. there are plenty of Muslims I hate, and I do not agree with many Islamic teachings. However I have a respect for Islam as I have a respect for all beliefs around the world, and it saddens me, as well as most Muslims that some fanatics have given their faith a bad name, but the same can be said of any religion.

there is no proof that children were buried alive and as Ive pointed out islam did not improve the lot of women . The Koran says in Surah 81:8-9 : "And when the female infant is buried alive as the pagan Arabs used to do, it shall be questioned, what was her sin?" which is not only documentation of the practice of infanticide, but the prohibition of it, prooving what I said.

mohammed didnt end tribal war he increased it then he ethnically cleaned pagans and jews out of saudi .
islam was mostly spread by the sword especially in the early stages .

Saudi??? there was no Saudi at the time, and frankly I and many other people find it offensive that a nation and all its citizens are named after the ruling family. Your English, how would you like it if I called you a Windsor? Aside from that, pretty well every religion has been spread by the sword, including your atheism if we look at the USSR, China, Albania, and dozens of other nations, and the Jews have been kicked out of pretty well everywhere at one point in time or another, so you do not convey an effective arguement about the exceptional evils of Islam at all.

I could go on but Im tired as its nearly 4 in the morning, so far neither of you or our lady poster have shown that aisha had reached puberty before mohammed had sex with her or disproved my evidence that she hadnt . According to Ibn Hisham's recension of Ibn Ishaq's biography of the porphet, Aisha was amoung the first people to accept Islam, thereby meaning that she could not have been less than 14 at the time of her marriage to Muhammed in 1 AH

just think of the sort of man that you are defending I hope you feel proud of yourself I am defending the beliefs of a billion people, and I do feel proud for that. You are insulting many good people and slapping everything they believe in in the face. I hope you feel proud.

stoney69

02-03-2006, 01:13 PM

ewokutopia, you'd be right to feel proud for doin what you doin. it is a pride indeed to have you amongst us and showin the true face of humanity!

[2.10] There is a disease in their hearts, so Allah added to their disease and they shall have a painful chastisement because they lied

jonny2mad

02-03-2006, 05:53 PM

ewok you seem to be going back on yourself in the same thread first you say islam expanded but not by force, then you say "pretty well every religion has been spread by the sword," when I point out that early islam spread mainly by force .

Ibn Ishaq's biography is in no way considered as authentic as sahih haddith and we get in several different books of sahih haddith in several places that mohammed started having sex with aisha when she was 9 and that she had her dolls with her which proves that she hadnt reached puberty .

you would have to disprove the books of muslim and Bukhari which are two of the most important books of haddith

if you wish to say that Ibn Ishaq's biography is a superior source that would be fine with me because there are lots of other nasty things in it .

the whole satanic verses episode is in Ibn Ishaq's biography of mohammed , so you can have it that way that mohammad didnt marry a six year old but he was tempted by satan and changed the koran for him .

that would be a wonderful thing to admit :0)

and the important point is that the vast majority of the worlds muslims and especially islamic teachers believe that mohammed did have sex with a nine year old , and at the time only girls that hadnt reached puberty were allowed to play with dolls and she had her dolls with her while married and having sex with mohammed.

tonny2happy

02-04-2006, 05:55 AM

jonny2mad, just cause I feel sorry for all the time you are wasting, I hope you devote your life for something better.

ewok you seem to be going back on yourself in the same thread first you say islam expanded but not by force, then you say "pretty well every religion has been spread by the sword," when I point out that early islam spread mainly by force . "I wanted to know the best of one who holds today's undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind....I became more than convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet, the scrupulous regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to this friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the 2nd volume (of the Prophet's biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of the great life." ByMahatma Gandhi in (young india)
May be Gandhi was narrow minded !!!!?

for political and/or startigic reasons impires expand to protect them selves and a good example of this is the world war 1 and 2. I bet you know the muslim world was a fighting ground. No one ever had been forced to accept Islam not at the time of the prophet when he returned to Makkah victoriously and not ever this in the history of Islam...for example Eygept wasn't of a mojority of Muslims untill 700 years after Muslims ruled it and if u searsh the books you have (or you don't!) you'll find that the ruler of Egypt was hit by a youg Qupt Christian boy to get his right back in the presence of the second Khalif of Muslims Omar bin Alkhattab and that was because the son of the ruler of eygept raced the Qupt boy and the Qupt boy won and he was hit for it by the son of the ruler. Omar called the ruler and his son and the qupt boy along with his family to Almadinah where the Qupt boy hit the son of the ruler and the ruler him self by orders of Omar and he said (Omar): when did you make people slaves when they were born free. A little note here is Omar was a great companian and scholar of Islam.
If you are so sure that Islam spread by force I challenge you to get me the name, date or any other information about the battle that Islam was spread to Indonesia by!.. and a hint for you here: Indonesians form the highest population of Muslims in the wourld.
Also, you can explain to me why Hindus in India weren't forced to be muslims although they have been ruled by muslims for more than a thousand years. And a little hint here as well: The popluation of Hindus is higher than the population of Pakistan along with the muslims of india..so good luck in expanding the narrow mindes.

and the important point is that the vast majority of the worlds muslims and especially islamic teachers believe that mohammed did have sex with a nine year old , and at the time only girls that hadnt reached puberty were allowed to play with dolls and she had her dolls with her while married and having sex with mohammed. Firstly, Prophet’s proposal to `Aisha came through a suggestion made by Khawalh bint Hakim as a sign of strengthening the relation with his Companion Abu Bakr and confirming his love for him.

Secondly, the fact that `Aisha, before the Prophet proposed to her, was being pursued by Jubair ibn Mut`am, indicates that she was mature enough for marriage, according to the prevailing tradition at that time, if not, the Quraish people, who would never waste any chance to insult the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, would have found this marriage as a golden opportunity to pour on him rain of insults. Rather they found nothing wrong in this engagement, and they received the news of the Prophet’s proposal for `Aisha as something usual, and even, expected. And believe me you won’t be any better Anti-Islamic whatever you try.

`Aisha was not the first case, for many girls married at her same age to men who were at their fathers’ age. Hala, the cousin of Amina bint Wahb was married to Abdul-Muttalib on the same day his son `Abdullah married Aminah bint Wahb who was at Hala’s same age. Also, the Companion `Umar ibn Al-Khattab married the daughter of Ali ibn Abi Talib, may Allah honor his face, while he was at her grandpa’s age. And she reported to be the happiest when married her.

After the passage of many centuries, we find now some people like jonny2mad who try to strike a comparison between the conditions of our present time and what was existing 1400 years ago. They are trying to apply the criterions of the Western society to that society that existed in the Arabian Peninsula very long ago.

It should be noted that in the hot regions, it’s normal for a girl to attain maturity at a very early age. Thus the case is totally different from that which does exist in the cold regions where a girl does not attain puberty before 21 [Physicians maintain that the age of puberty in the hot regions normally ranges from 9 to 16]. At all rates, it should be stressed that the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, on marrying `Aisha, never aimed at fulfilling a lust or satisfying a desire; rather, his aim was to strengthen his relation with the most beloved Companion of his.

Had it been true that the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, aimed at fulfilling a lust or satisfying a desire, he would have done this while still in his youth when he was still free from the responsibilities of delivering Allah’s call. At his early age, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, accepted to marry Khadija, may Allah be pleased with her, who was 15 years older than him. He also never married a new wife until after her death. Even after her passing away, his new wife Sawdah bint Zam`ah was an old-aged widow who possessed no particular appealing qualities. This adds to our certainty that the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, had many great lofty aims behind his marriages. Also, when Khawlah bint Hakim suggested to him to marry`Aisha, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, thought thoroughly whether to accept or to refuse. He took into consideration his relation with Abu Bakr.

When `Aisha reached the Prophet’s house, Sawdah gave her the first place and took care of her till her death.. Afterwards, `Aisha remained a faithful wife to the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him; her 10 years of marriage were of the life of a fully dedicated disciple, trainee and scholarly student in the noble Prophetic school. She was the source of knowledge for almost every Companion. She was of the main sources for revealing knowledge and information of the private life of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him. She was a big celebrity in politics and the best example of generosity.

The Prophet’s love for `Aisha was a sign of his love for her father. On being asked about the dearest person to his heart, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, mentioned `Aisha. Then, on being asked about the dearest man to him and he, peace and blessings be upon him, mentioned her father, Abu Bakr.

This is copied from a fatwa for Sheikh Faysal Mawlawi, deputy chairman of the European Council for Fatwa and Research On www.Islamonline.net (http://www.Islamonline.net) except what is in Arial which are my own comments

you also might be intrested to know what non-Mulims who are not narrow-minded say:

"But do you mean to tell me that the man who in the full flush of youthful vigour, a young man of four and twenty (24), married a woman much his senior, and remained faithful to her for six and twenty years (26), at fifty years of age when the passions are dying married for lust and sexual passion? Not thus are men's lives to be judged. And you look at the women whom he married, you will find that by every one of them an alliance was made for his people, or something was gained for his followers, or the woman was in sore need of protection."
Dr Annie Besant (Dr. Annie Besant in 'The Life and Teachings of Mohammad,' Madras, 1932)

Erasmus70

02-04-2006, 01:02 PM

tonny2happy

02-04-2006, 06:23 PM

Seriously, you need to stop with this senseless bartering of the age of puberty and this nonsense about heat in the desert making her develop.
This is nonsense.
The reason that anyone says puberty 'between 9 -15' is giving the most extreme outer limits which can include medical abnormality.
For ANY girl to begin showing THE FIRST SIGNS of puberty at the age of Nine is so rare it leads to a Doctors exam to find any tumours, disease or possible chemical imbalance.
How stupid should we pretend to be here?
Find me Ten Thousand girls from the hottest regions on the planet and if you can show me ONE that has developed sexually I will be beyond shocked and surprised. too bad for you. Nonsense and abnormility bla bla where did you get this from..clearly you have no scientific knoledge nor you searched before objecting. I seriously don't know How stupid should we pretend to be here?

May be you need a recent scientific article that says to you: Erasmus there are more than 10,000 girls that reach the the age of pubirty between 8 and 12 In general and not only in hot regions:

Puberty marks the second stage of physical sexual differentiation—the time when both primary and secondary sexual characteristics as well as adult reproductive capacity develop, and when sexual interest surges. Puberty typically begins in girls from 8 to 12 years of age, whereas boys start about two years later. The hypothalamus initiates pubertal changes by directing pituitary growth hormones and gonadotropins (hormones that control the ovaries and testes).

Stephanie Ann Sanders, B.A., M.S., Ph.D.

"Human Sexuality," Microsoft® Encarta® Online Encyclopedia 2005
http://encarta.msn.com © 1997-2005 Microsoft Corporation

You may be a good fan of evolution….ok evolutionists say:

This is the message of Professors Mark Hanson and Peter Gluckman, whose review of the evolution of puberty is published online this week in Trends in Endocrinology and Metabolism.

Hanson and Gluckman, who respectively head the Centre for the Developmental Origins of Health and Disease (DOHaD) at the University of Southampton, and the Liggins Institute at the University of Auckland, New Zealand, researched the age of puberty stretching back beyond the Stone Age.

They found that Paleolithic girls arrived at menarche - the first occurrence of menstruation - between seven and 13 years. This is a similar age to modern girls, which suggests that this is the evolutionarily determined age of puberty in girls.

University Of Southampton (http://www.soton.ac.uk/) Ref: 05/206
New research shows how evolution explains age of puberty. 30 November 2005. http://www.soton.ac.uk

There are many other studies. Go to physiology search engines and educate your self and then come talk about Muslim apologists. And I hope this is logical enough for you. Get me one recognized paper that support your extreme denial of this physiological fact!!

You are better to just say upfront that Muhammed had sexual relations with a Nine Year old girl. . He had sex with his wife, and I really think what I have said in my previous post was logical enough. I gave you many examples of similar marriages and If it was not acceptable Quraish would have done better job to insult the prophet. And again whatever you do you won’t be smarter than them in being Islamophobic.

Just make it plain that Muhammed slaughtered thousands through war and conquer.
Stop thinking we are all so stupid that if you just point to regions turned to Islam 'without war' then Im going to be your little foolish western dummy and say to myself "Hey.. thats right, Indonesia was evangelised peacefully.. so everything else must have been too duhhhhhh".
for political and/or startigic reasons impires expand to protect them selves and a good example of this is the world war 1 and 2. I bet you know the muslim world was a fighting ground. No one ever had been forced to accept Islam not at the time of the prophet when he returned to Makkah victoriously and not ever this in the history of Islam...for example Eygept wasn't of a mojority of Muslims untill 700 years after Muslims ruled it and if u searsh the books you have (or you don't!) you'll find that the ruler of Egypt was hit by a youg Qupt Christian boy to get his right back in the presence of the second Khalif of Muslims Omar bin Alkhattab and that was because the son of the ruler of eygept raced the Qupt boy and the Qupt boy won and he was hit for it by the son of the ruler. Omar called the ruler and his son and the qupt boy along with his family to Almadinah where the Qupt boy hit the son of the ruler and the ruler him self by orders of Omar and he said (Omar): when did you make people slaves when they were born free. A little note here is Omar was a great companian and scholar of Islam. . I have to repeat my self it might make sence to you from the 2nd time. I won’t think you are foolish if you read the whole thing. May be you want to present evidences that Muhammad-peace be upon him- slaughtered thousands through war and conquer. I’ll be happy to make it clearer for you.

No,
Seriously, you only demonstrate how vulnerable and weak you are going to be when more and more Indonesians convert to Christianity after investigating these things for themselves.
You have a serious problem there because Indonesians know the Koran and Haddiths VERY WELL and you cant just play dumb and ask 'What wars?' when they consider the HORRIFIC VIOLENCE of Muhammed. . I agree Indonesians know the Quran and Hadith just like other Muslims and sometimes even better. And also, It will take you almost your life to convince a Muslim Indonesian of your nice stories. In fact they might do better job in convincing you of your faults than I would.

peace

Erasmus70

02-05-2006, 12:32 AM

LOOK AGAIN!

How stupid do you think I am tony - that I dont notice you take examples of 'Between 9 and 12'
or
'First Menses between 7 and 13' (and that was is a Peleoithic theory but still)

Stop it.
She is Nine.
There is a HUGE difference between 9 and 12 and Aisha is not 'Between 9-12 years old'
She is 9.

She is not 11, 12, 13.

This is why I say its only making you people look foolish when you repeatedly try and use these little tricks and games and think others are so blind they cannot possibly see what is happening.

Aisha is nine and not 'between 9 and 13'.
Someone even tried this before saying 'between 9 and 15'.
No.
You are not applying 13 year olds development because it is a nine year old.

So lets talk the research.
Its true that researchers are becoming increasingly alarmed that girls as young as Nine are experiencing the START or BEGINNING SIGNS of Puberty.
In such cases, they often look for DEFECTS or something that is causing EARLY ONSET of Puberty.

See, you are talking about menstruation as if that is 'the goal' needed to absolve Muhammed but that is nonsense.
The first Menses does NOT mean the child is now sexually developed enough to begin having intercourse.
You have this terrible idea that 9 year old Aisha would have breasts and hips and pubic hair and then now begins full mentstrual cycles (or be even halfway to these) because somewhere you read about first signs of Menses happening as young as 9.

In fact, the 9 year old is still an undeveloped girl, no breasts, no childbearing hips, no pubic hair even, not on a menstrual cycle, and not even having 'full menstruations' either.

By the way, this is observed to be a MODERN dilemma and early puberty (or first signs) in girls is being seriously researched by concerned physicians.
Its considered an 'Abberation' or something unusual.

But hey.. just keep trying to barter and negotiate and hope that non-muslims will be so dumb they will be willing to accept that a 50 year old man doing a 9 year old (his favourite one of the Harem) is just fine.
Honestly, I never even heard of such a tradition in any culture in any part of history anywhere on the planet!

EwokUtopia

02-05-2006, 04:10 AM

She is nine you say? well, that is a disputed "fact" and her age varries between 9 and 14 depending on the source. We do not even know when Muhammed himself was born for a solid fact, and we relie on the traditional date of his birth, which is about as reliable as saying jesus was born december 25th 0 AD. so do not say that she is nine like it is beyond any shadow of a doubt. In that culture it was the norm for what we would now call girls to marry old men. Erasmus, from your previous posts I gather that you are a Christian. Do you seriously believe that Mary was over 18, conforming to modern age of conscent laws? most people agree that she was between 12 and 16. this wasnt even young to marry back in that culture, so to compare it with modern culture is folly. One thing that you must realize is that life in pre-islamic arabia was far harsher than anything in the west, and we in the west lead very pampered lives, allowing childhood to last incredibly long. 9 year old kids in the 3rd world and urban america are far far more matured than 9 year olds in the American middle and upper classes. Aisha knew what she was doing, and not one document of her dissatisfaction with her husband has been made. Indeed, she was the most loving of all of his wives. She chose to live the way she did. If she didnt want to marry him, he would not have forced her. It was a common practise in Arabia at the time, nothing was considered immoral at all about it. They would have most likely thought it immoral how we in the 21st century have turned marriage into something of a financial agreement. There is endless rhetoric about this topic, and it has raged for more than a thousand years. Damn near every Muslim is aware of this relationship, but that controversy has not hindered Islam's status as the worlds fastest growing faith, and I think that says something. Was Aisha 9? perhaps the better question is does it matter? Nobody (including Aisha) cared at the time, why should we assume that the morals of today are better than the morals of then? For all we know, eating meat will be considered a grave sin 1000 years from now, will that make any great person today (and there arent many, but for the sake of arguement, imagine one) who isnt a vegetarian flawed in some way? We could talk about this for hours and come to no conclusion. Perhaps it is best to realize that overblowing these modern taboo's that were the norm in Muhammed's day is not hindering Islam in the slightest, therefore those arguements about Aisha are useless as a weapon against Islam. Perhaps, also, it is best for some people to come to terms with religious toleration.

tonny2happy

02-05-2006, 05:40 PM

LOOK AGAIN!

'First Menses between 7 and 13' (and that was is a Peleoithic theory but still)
Oh man you are so wasting my time did you read it when I said:

You may be a good fan of evolution….ok evolutionists say: then I gave you the Peleoithic theory and the Bold part:
They found that Paleolithic girls arrived at menarche - the first occurrence of menstruation - between seven and 13 years. This is a similar age to modern girls, which suggests that this is the evolutionarily determined age of puberty in girls. and Erasmus was that the Only referrence I used??? NO here again:
Puberty marks the second stage of physical sexual differentiation—the time when both primary and secondary sexual characteristics as well as adult reproductive capacity develop, and when sexual interest surges. Puberty typically begins in girls from 8 to 12 years of age, whereas boys start about two years later. The hypothalamus initiates pubertal changes by directing pituitary growth hormones and gonadotropins (hormones that control the ovaries and testes).

Stephanie Ann Sanders, B.A., M.S., Ph.D.

"Human Sexuality," Microsoft® Encarta® Online Encyclopedia 2005
http://encarta.msn.com (http://encarta.msn.com/) © 1997-2005 Microsoft Corporation what about all people having marriges in the same age...i'll show you again:
`Aisha was not the first case, for many girls married at her same age to men who were at their fathers’ age. Hala, the cousin of Amina bint Wahb was married to Abdul-Muttalib on the same day his son `Abdullah married Aminah bint Wahb who was at Hala’s same age. Also, the Companion `Umar ibn Al-Khattab married the daughter of Ali ibn Abi Talib, may Allah honor his face, while he was at her grandpa’s age. And she reported to be the happiest when married her. EwokUtopia tried to explain to you as well:
Indeed, she was the most loving of all of his wives. She chose to live the way she did. If she didnt want to marry him, he would not have forced her. It was a common practise in Arabia at the time, nothing was considered immoral at all about it It was a common practise in Arabia at the time, nothing was considered immoral at all about it. Thank you Ewok..
All I get from your posts is that you are an angry Islamophobic person..as It has been clearfied to you several times and you don't even bother reading the whole thing.

"But do you mean to tell me that the man who in the full flush of youthful vigour, a young man of four and twenty (24), married a woman much his senior, and remained faithful to her for six and twenty years (26), at fifty years of age when the passions are dying married for lust and sexual passion? Not thus are men's lives to be judged. And you look at the women whom he married, you will find that by every one of them an alliance was made for his people, or something was gained for his followers, or the woman was in sore need of protection."
Dr Annie Besant (Dr. Annie Besant in 'The Life and Teachings of Mohammad,' Madras, 1932) May be Dr. Annie Besant was Dumb!!?

Leave your biase away so I can write new things for you instead of repeating the things that you don't read....

All Muslims know this story. as the 1st thing we read and study is the prophet's life. My best scholars are white Europian converts who were historians or experts in cultural accpects or were athiests..I learned it from them,, IT IS A NORMAL THING. may be not in the western society. your story simply doesn't make since because many ppl in the middle east have grandmothers that married when they were around ten beginng with my grandmother (she actuelly was 10) and I see it as a good thing. she was perfectly mature and It was an acceptable thing in the society. Your story that you got from Islamophobic websites are simply Islamophobic OK.
...your problem here is that you aren't here to discuss or critique creatively.. you are here for something else.

peace

Erasmus70

02-06-2006, 09:12 AM

tonny2happy

02-07-2006, 12:52 AM

I caught you trying to include 9 as the same as 13.
Wrong.
Now you are still insulting my intelligence (if that were possible) by once again trying to pretend like we are discussing the facts about 13 year olds.
We are talkign about a 9 year old and Muhammed having intercourse with her. But hey.. so far you are agreeing that Muhammed did intercourse with his nine year old wife and that was acceptable to him.
At least we settled that. you caught me what man..my posts are up there and I assume people can read. YES she was 9 and nine means mature..she was mature..I previously told you that my grand mother who now became grand grand mother got married when she was 10 like married married, this marrige might have been planned before ..any ways I emphasized that the marrige happened because THIS WAS AN ACCEPTABLE THING AT THAT TIME and even 2 generations ago back home and is still acceptable and does happen in many villages and mountain enviroments.

Yes, I am 'Phobic' of that and if you think that is 'normal' and we should all just accept it then stay the fuck away from my daughter.
Seriously, If Muhammed did that to my Daughter - it would have been the last thing he ever did on this planet.
The fact the nine year old girl was 'his favourite' really shows what a deranged pedophile he was. In psychology, any disorder is defined based on what is normal and what is abnormal and if you read any 1st year introductory book you’ll find that the disorder standard varies from culture to culture and even from time to time.

In Islam around 1500 years ago we had something called Orf which is translated literally known which means The common between people for example, In a society that wear red clothes all the time and if white was considered weared or abnormal then it is not allowed to wear it in public. This actually is called the shohra dress in Islam and is not accepted. Like wise the prophet used to pray with his shoes because ,in the past, there was no carpet. Now a days it is not allowed to get to the mosque with your shoes because it is considered wrong among people.

Like wise and more importantly..In any community that early marriage is not motaraf –common- It is not allowed to do it and is considerd a crime in the commonality of the current century. In the cities in the middle east now a days we don’t do it…we used to do it 50 years back in some cities..In villages they still do it till today and in the desert.

In conclusion, pedophile in modern psychology doesn’t apply to the prophet or my grandfather or a whole nation in different places and times by any means. By Islamic law, no Muslim ever dares to be pedophilic..

And by the way when I said Islamophobic I didn’t mean you fear and care about your doughter -which is compulsory in Islam-…I meant Islamophbic..However, I hope I the point is clearer to you now. I don't mean to insult your intilligance by the way.

Im still not clear on exactly what he did to the boys he kidnapped from Caravans (after slaughtering the boys parents).
They seem to be described as loot and 'Pearls' for the pleasure of men.
On this topic im not yet clear and if you want to provide some scriptures from Koran or Haddith showing they did not use the boys as homosexual sex toys - Please do!
I would be HAPPY to be shown where Im wrong about that!

Otherwise, Muhammed did do a good job killing lots of people.
At least there is no debate about that.

There is no such thing ever In Islam -maybe in the imagination of Islamophobic ppl-..Now this is true Islamophobia.. The Arabs didn’t know what is homosexuality at that time and they came to know about the people of prophet Lut –peace be upon him- through the Quran. This appeared centuries after the prophet death. So please get me an evidence of what you are saying about the boys thing, basically cause you are the one who claimed it.

Peace

EwokUtopia

02-07-2006, 01:41 AM

Now you are still insulting my intelligence (if that were possible)
What intelligence? You make fun of me for going to university! Pah!

WingedAngel

02-07-2006, 05:17 PM

I accept and I obey.
We accept and we obey.

Intelligence is only the shadow of objective Truth.

Erasmus70

02-08-2006, 02:58 PM

YES she was 9 and nine means mature..she was mature.......THIS WAS AN ACCEPTABLE THING AT THAT TIME ...
NO. She was not Mature. She was NINE YEARS OLD.
No. Its not acceptable then and you would not accept it now.
No Muslim would accept a 53 year old man boning his Nine Year old Daughter - Marriage or no marriage.
Never mind that.. the real problem here is that Muhammed is to not only know better but he should not be getting a hard penis over a NINE YEAR OLD.

In psychology, any disorder is defined based on what is normal and what is abnormal and if you read any 1st year introductory book you’ll find that the disorder standard varies from culture to culture and even from time to time.
Bullshit.
It is NEVER NORMAL in ANY culture on earth for a 53 Year old man to be sexually aroused by a Nine Year old girl (like Mohammed was and entered her)
Thats ABnormal and its downright destructive to the childs genitals as well as the psychological damage in that Aisha was not capable of having sexual feelings for Ole Mohammed.
Do you think a Nine year old wants to have a mans erection in her?
No.

Like wise and more importantly..In any community that early marriage is not motaraf –common- It is not allowed to do it and is considerd a crime in the commonality of the current century. In the cities in the middle east now a days we don’t do it…we used to do it 50 years back in some cities..In villages they still do it till today and in the desert.
Here is where a big problem lies for Mohammed.
Yes, we understand that some things were 'common' for example worshipping Allat and many gods was common. (example: Allah the Moon God and his daughters).
Yes ok.
Things like this are true for Jesus or even the Prophets before him when they are 'In' a region/era/culture.
Romans had a slavery system for example and this was simply how they knew life to be and did not even know otherwise it was so fundamental to life itself.

However, we do not see Jesus getting a slave because Jesus knows better.
This is supposed to be true for Mohammed.
Sure, even if I accept you unfounded theory that Arabic men were sexually aroused by nine year old girls and it was normal for them to have intercourse with them (or bury baby girls in the sand for that matter) thats one thing.
MOHAMMED IS TO KNOW BETTER!

Instead you want me to believe he is the one and only true Messenger but for some reason he can give every moral prescription, change and challenge what is wrong in the culture (paganism, burying babies, even daily rituals) but he just goes along getting 'inspired' to enter nine year olds.
Doesnt know any better about that one?

In conclusion, pedophile in modern psychology doesn’t apply to the prophet or my grandfather or a whole nation in different places and times by any means. By Islamic law, no Muslim ever dares to be pedophilic..
WHOA... Why Not?
There is no good reason for you to accept the Prophet Muhammeds actions as correct and good (and given by Allah in a fantasy.. err. dream) but to say its not dared now.
Sure, by every reason it should be as allowable now as it was then.
Why not?
Is it because people know that Muhammed did something wrong now?

And by the way when I said Islamophobic I didn’t mean you fear and care about your doughter -which is compulsory in Islam-…I meant Islamophbic..However, I hope I the point is clearer to you now. I don't mean to insult your intilligance by the way.
Here is the bad news. Im not 'Islamophobic' and in fact, I USED to have a healthy respect for Islam.
I used to remind other Christians (and myself) "Hey, at least the Muslims are staying true to their principles and why are we falling behind?"

Unfortunately, I began to study on Islam and get to know Muslims personally, learning more abut the Koran and Muhammed.
Now I am nearly disgusted with Islam.
The more I learn the more I realise what a horrible, fraudulent, flawed and weak contrivance this thing is.
Muhammed himself is becoming more of a sick, demented serial killing, sexual deviant and criminaly insane wacko - the more I learn about his guy.

Sorry, but if I was you I would either abandon that trainwreck of a religion or hope that as FEW people ever look into Islam and Muhammed as possible.

Its not a 'phobia' and im not 'anti' anything or anybody. I WISH I had never found out how disturbing and violent this whole thing really is!

The Prophet married Aisha in Mecca three years before the Hijrah, after the death of Khadija. At the time she was six.” Ishaq:281 “When the Apostle came to Medina he was fifty-three.” Tabari VII:6 “In May, 623 A.D./A.H. 1, Allah’s Messenger consummated his marriage to Aisha.”

The story is just plain creepy. She is to be like his Niece according to custom but he has a 'revelation' that she is permitted (and a convenient 'foretelling vision') to instruct the Father otherwise (who desperately tries to talk Muhammed out of it)

“When the Prophet married Aisha, she was very young and not yet ready for consummation.” - “My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. My nurse took over and wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was brought in while Muhammad was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. The other men and women got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old.”

Here he actually tries to justify it. 'She didnt say anything' and 'God made me do it":

“The Prophet said, ‘A virgin should not be married till she is asked for her consent.’ ‘O Apostle! How will the virgin express her consent?’ He said, ‘By remaining silent.’” - “Allah’s Apostle told Aisha, ‘You were shown to me twice in my dreams. I beheld a man or angel carrying you in a silken cloth. He said to me, “She is yours, so uncover her.” And behold, it was you. I would then say to myself, “If this is from Allah, then it must happen.”’

and here she describes how he got under a blanket with here and became inspired (erect):

the Messenger married me when I was seven; my marriage was consummated when I was nine; he married me when I was a virgin, no other man having shared me with him; inspiration came to him when he and I were in a single blanket

Here its explained that the nine year old was Muhammeds favourite one when it came to sexual 'turns' (he has a harem of wives and sometimes he could not even remember which ones he had slept with the night before) but Aisha is his favourite one for sex nights:

“The people used to send presents to the Prophet on the day of Aisha’s turn [to have sex with him]. Aisha said, ‘His other wives gathered in the apartment of Um Salama [wife number two] and said, “Um, the people send presents on the day of Aisha’s turn and we too, love the good presents just as much as she does. You should tell Allah’s Apostle to order the people to send their presents to him regardless of whose turn it may be.” Um repeated that to the Prophet and he turned away from her. When the Prophet returned to Um, she repeated the request again. The Prophet again turned away. After the third time, the Prophet said, “Um, don’t trouble me by harming Aisha, for by Allah, the Divine Inspiration [Qur’an surahs] never came to me while I was under the blanket of any woman among you except her.”

Now lets see, if it was 'normal' for all old men to be sexually excited by nine year olds then we dont see this here in Muhammeds conversation with one of this companions where he seems surprised that he did not get a kid to fondle instead of a grown woman:

“I participated in a Ghazwa [raid] with the Prophet. I said, ‘Apostle, I am a bridegroom.’ He asked me whether I had married a virgin or matron. I answered, ‘A matron.’ He said, ‘Why not a virgin who would have played with you? Then you could have played with her.’ ‘Apostle! My father was martyred and I have some young sisters, so I felt it not proper that I should marry a young girl as young as them.’

There is no such thing ever In Islam -maybe in the imagination of Islamophobic ppl-..Now this is true Islamophobia.. The Arabs didn’t know what is homosexuality at that time and they came to know about the people of prophet Lut –peace be upon him- through the Quran. This appeared centuries after the prophet death. So please get me an evidence of what you are saying about the boys thing, basically cause you are the one who claimed it.

The reason I asked about the practice of homosexuality was because scholars and historians confirm what I hear from people who have lived in the middle-east.
That there was a custom/practice of homosexual pedastry but this is more like that of the Greeks.
That is to say, they did not have the very recent concept that there are some people called 'homosexuals' and you are one or not.
Instead, you could (for example) pleasure yourself with a passive 'Eunich' or beautiful young man.
As long as you were 'giving' it was not considered 'homosexual' and it was not for the Eunich or passive youth.
BUT
If you were 'receiving' and were no longer a youth or a Eunich this was 'bad homsexuality' and this made you a gay.

Ok,
The reason I figure this is condoned by Mohammed is due to the following indications:

Here Muhammed is quoted (as inspired by Allah, supposedly) that these are the rewards in Heaven:
Hadith: Al hadiths, Vol. 4, Page-172, No.34: Hozrot Ali (r.a) narrated that the Apostle of Allah said, “There is in paradise an open market wherein there will be no buying or selling, but will consist of men and women. When a man desires a beauty, at once he will have intercourse with them as desired.

Here this is backed up in Sura:

Sura: 52:24 - Round about them will serve, (devoted) to them, young male servants (handsome) as Pearls well-guarded.
Sura: 56-17 - Round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness).
Sura 76:19 - And round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness): If thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered Pearls.

In another Haddith we get this impression that giving intercourse to a youth is acceptable, but its advised you cannot marry the boys mother:

(Bukhari LXII, 25) As for whom(ever) plays with a boy: if he caused him to enter him, then he shall not marry his mother.
and here in another Haddith Passage we see where Mohammed seems to be implying that treating straight men as 'Eunichs' is the problem - not that giving sex to males Eunichs is any problem:

Bukhari LXII 6:9 [Narrated by ibn Mas'ud:] "We used to fight together with the Prophet, peace be upon him. There were no women with us. We said: O Messenger, may we treat some as eunuchs [[i]a laa nastakhsii]? He forbade us to do so." So all of this seems to tell me that Homosexuality is permitted and even celebrated by Muhammed as long as it stays within the Greek concept:
'Giving' to a passive eunich is acceptable and even desireable (but not as much as women or nine year old girls?)
It reminds me of something an ex-convict said "Dont forget.. the one on the 'bottom' is the gay guy.."

So in this sense they would not consider themselves homosexuals and a submissive youth or eunich would not be considered homsexuals either.
A man who was no longer 'beardless' and wanted sex was Gay (lut) or giving to a man who is not a beardless youth or a eunich was also like Lot gays.

This does correspond with reports I have heard from those in Middle-eastern Islamic cultures.
Example: A Mature Cleric could 'give' intercourse to a youth and this is not considered homosexual.
If that youth was giving or taking with youths his own age and stature - or- if he became mature and bearded and still 'took' intercourse then that woud be considered very wrong and he is then a homosexual.

Im only going with what Im hearing and reading so if you can explain why you think its 'unheard of in Islam' when in fact its made apparent to me through Koran and Haddith then please clarify?

tonny2happy

02-08-2006, 07:34 PM

NO. She was not Mature. She was NINE YEARS OLD.
No. Its not acceptable then and you would not accept it now.
No Muslim would accept a 53 year old man boning his Nine Year old Daughter - Marriage or no marriage.
Never mind that.. the real problem here is that Muhammed is to not only know better but he should not be getting a hard penis over a NINE YEAR OLD.
Bullshit.
It is NEVER NORMAL in ANY culture on earth for a 53 Year old man to be sexually aroused by a Nine Year old girl (like Mohammed was and entered her)
Thats ABnormal and its downright destructive to the childs genitals as well as the psychological damage in that Aisha was not capable of having sexual feelings for Ole Mohammed.
Do you think a Nine year old wants to have a mans erection in her?
No. She was mature...I previously have told you that my grand mother got married when she was 10 and she had her 1st child (my oldest aunti) when she was 11....I also have provided you with physiological evidences about puberty....you said it never bla bla in any culture, well look, I have givin you examples of many similar marriges at that time and in recent time....

Here is where a big problem lies for Mohammed.
Yes, we understand that some things were 'common' for example worshipping Allat and many gods was common. (example: Allah the Moon God and his daughters). When I talked about Orf I didn't say Orf changes the fundimentals of the relegion. Although it was clear the way I said it but you seem to maybe don't understand or pueposly misquote what I said. The Orf only deals with habits of cultures that change by time and circumctances. the Orf doesn't change the relegion...if ppl drink alcohol in a culture, it doens't become allowed...if ppl kill girls infant, worship idols...it wont be lawful because in the Quran it is stated clearly that these things are banned. When it comes to things not mentioned in Quran, like the color of clothes or wearing shoes in mosque Orf works....Now how does that relate to Aisha's issue? The conditions of marrige existed in her including her full physical and mental maturity -again my grandmom was capable of giving birth when she was 10- Also it was Mota'arf -common- that people get married at that time..now a days in the west and modern cities conditions maturity is reached later and the Orf is different so even if it is reached early -like in some cities in the middle east now- it is not common in some palces so it wouldn't happen originally. Yet it does happen in villages, deserts and other enviroments now a days.
Because it was normal and because Aish was mature then it is not an issue if someone enjoies his relation with his wife by any means...

Yes ok.
Things like this are true for Jesus or even the Prophets before him when they are 'In' a region/era/culture.
Romans had a slavery system for example and this was simply how they knew life to be and did not even know otherwise it was so fundamental to life itself.
However, we do not see Jesus getting a slave because Jesus knows better.
This is supposed to be true for Mohammed.
Sure, even if I accept you unfounded theory that Arabic men were sexually aroused by nine year old girls and it was normal for them to have intercourse with them (or bury baby girls in the sand for that matter) thats one thing. The prophet haven't ever had a slave. and in one of my previous posts in other sections I showed how Islam came to remove any slavery except for god.

Unfortunately, I began to study on Islam and get to know Muslims personally, learning more abut the Koran and Muhammed.
Now I am nearly disgusted with Islam.
The more I learn the more I realise what a horrible, fraudulent, flawed and weak contrivance this thing is.
Muhammed himself is becoming more of a sick, demented serial killing, sexual deviant and criminaly insane wacko - the more I learn about his guy. Unfortunatly, It is a big mistake to say I studied about Islam..you'd rather say one of two things:
1) I have read Islamophobic websites that misquot the Quran and Hadith and change them and I'v never bothered checking In Quran or In Bukhary befor I copy past.... in this case I'm sorry but when I'll show you how you were copy-pasting without making sure, your intillegance will be insulted simultanously..
2) I devoted my life to get peopl away from Islam (Islamphobic) and so I have made many lies and changed many words in the vurses and the Hadiths and also fooling ppl about entire cultures and populations...In this case i'll tell you my converts friends read the Quran several times before they became Muslims and it is that what made them submit to god. Also, Islam is the fastest growing relegion in the world wheather you like it or not and if you don't believe me go do a little research. -reliable sources please.

Commin Soon....may be next week, cz I wont be free enough to show it now.....I will show you how the one of the two discriptions apply perfectly to you.
I will show you all the vurses and Hadiths taht you posted one by one...and prove to you that you never read them in the Quran or Hadith your self or that you are a Lier and If I was in your place I'll preferre the 1st option...

By the way you seem to have a very impolite language... did you really made fun of people who go to universities??

Peace

Erasmus70

02-09-2006, 12:11 AM

Duly note: I definately copy and paste Verses from the Koran for the simple reason that I could no more memorise and retype the verses than I could with the Bible or anything else.
The reason they are published online in this forum is so that you can see whether or not these are real verses from the Koran.
If they are not - by all means, point these out as forgeries.
I have said before - I WISH and would HOPE this was not from Koran (or Haddith) and if you reject the Haddith then I would say GOOD!
I would agree with you and be happy to do so! (as I have with other Muslims).

As far as 'The Fastest growing religion' goes.
We have been hearing this for a long time.
It doesnt necessarily mean anything important even if its true.
Example: In my province there were almost NO muslims anywhere and you would be shocked to find a small mosque anywhere.
In recent decades, we began to attract more and more doctors and wealthy businessmen from Jordan and other 'Muslim Nations'.
So for example, my next door neighbour is from there. Now they have started a family.
Now there went from 0% to now 5 people.
So really its true that 'Islam' is the 'fastest growing religion' in town.
But
Do you see how that doesnt mean its winning converts and taking over the world.

This is like saying Christianity is the fastest growing religion in Indonesia.
Yes, but this there were not many to start wth and they are still a small minority.
But 'technically' they are 'fastest growing'

Even then, I would have to see your sources for this because I hear it all the time as a justification for the Koran and yet others say that Buddhism is the fastest growing, while others say that 'gnostiicism' is the fastest growing. (from almost nothing to thousands and doubling numbers every year.. and still a tiny minority).

Anyways, looking forward to your reply next week.

stoney69

02-09-2006, 04:40 PM

tonny, like i said earlier ..don't be drainin your energy on haters. they're set in their minds and are ridin the waves of hate and ignorance ..you can bring all that you want, show'em where they go wrong et al. but the fact of the matter is, you be bangin your head against the wall

when you come across sickness or disease, feel sorry - dont fight it!

EwokUtopia

02-09-2006, 08:48 PM

Yeah, Jonny is a brick wall, and erasmus is a slightly less educated brick wall, no use talking to them about things you cant change, just like it is no use for them talking to us about things they cant change.

Erasmus70

02-10-2006, 05:37 AM

I believe there was a question about Jesus spending three days and three nights (as Jonah did).
It was demonstrated that although there are several valid ways this is true... there is at least one that is best.

So, the only people in here how are just being 'close minded' or hateful is Ewok and Spook.
The only person who will NOT reply to the answer is CatStevens.

I bet you anything, Catstevens DOES NOT GIVE A FUCK whether or not he just heard a perfectly valid explanation how Jesus does spend three days and nights.
He will now go to another forum and ask the same question anyways.

Am I right?
Yes.
Why am I right?
Because Catstevens had no intention of getting an answer and he definately did not want to find a perfectly valid explanation either!
That has NOTHING to do with him posting the question.
He DOES POST it because (in his mind) he has found out that many Christians cant answer this question.
They become confused.
They might thing "oh.. hmmm.. Maybe Allah is the real God'

In other words, Catstevens (and you two) are the ones who are truly disinterested in any facts.
You DEMONSTRATE that by REFUSING to reply to the Wednesday Passover (which would EXACTLY and PERFECTLY explain the Johah questions)

But..
Maybe there IS a good way for you to reply or a counter point but we will never know because Catstevens or you two WILL NOT EVER SPEAK OF IT AGAIN.

So you may now STFU about accusing others of 'Refusing to see' when you are blatantly and without mistake doing that yourselves right now.

If you want to shut me up its easy - REPLY WITH A COUNTER ARGUMENT TO THE WEDNESDAY PASSOVER
or
ADMIT THAT THE BIBLE HAS THIS SCRIPTURE IN PERFECT ORDER.

Watch.. this thread will stop immediately and none of you will have an answer.
Nope.

EwokUtopia

02-10-2006, 06:31 AM

Read Psalm 137, you baby killer.

padapuram

11-01-2006, 03:58 PM

DEAR BROTHERS

VISIT FOR MALAYALAM ENGLISH ISLAMIC VIDEO/AUDIO FORUM

VISIT FORUM (http://chirakkal.4.forumer.com)

PADAPURAM / CHIRAKKAL

Columbo

11-04-2006, 12:49 PM

Its as though these sicko muslims actually believe that every convert is proof they are right - its like theyre saying that just because somebody is so confused about the world that they choose to accept the fantasy that an invisible being is either screwing their life over - or helping them be good - that somehow this proves the west is wrong and they are right HA HA HA HA HA
sick people huh all lies no truth to them

The main point being that the majority of converts they point out are either ex jews or americans - its like a game to them and leaves me wodering this - when a person who previously ate pork begins to convert - at what point do you stop eating pork? Do you wake up one day and say - thats it no more pork for me i am a muslim - or do you say - hmm I'm not enough of a muslim yet - maybe one more bacon sandwich wont do any harm

What they are saying is there seems to be a register of converts - they know exactly how many have converted and dont mind using these peoples names as a tool of propoganda

question: If islam is peace loving - why spam forums with propogandist bullshit because you never reply to anything that questions your faith or the facts about these converts

kar33m

12-27-2006, 03:34 PM

Hippali

03-12-2007, 01:45 PM

Jonyy2mad is a terrorist who supports the holocaust of thousands of Japanese civilians, but gets ah so self righteous when the same is done to anyone else. Hypocracy is an interesting thing to watch.

Those in power must slowly lose it, so everyone is safe from them. Until then we need to work to keep them busy burying their dead, just as they want the weak to bury their dead by killing them by the thousands in one nation after another.

The World is waking up to the tyrants all over. From South America to the far coasts of China and technology is spreading all over too. The tyrants have a few more years to strut, then the whimpering will begin. Mark my WORDS!!

nirmalamaya

06-10-2007, 03:47 PM

Badori

12-31-2008, 12:22 AM

(i do not intend to offend or disrespect any person or religion in what i have to say. Personally i feel myself and my religion to be offended by wut jonny2mad has said previously but i am expressing myself in a controlled way)

this is aimed directly at jonny2mad
The prophet muhammed(pbuh) did not have sex with young girls he married a YOUNGER(not young) woman(who by the way was a slave he freed) in order to have children but he only did this after his wife advised him to. And i would really appreciate it if you spoke with a little more respect when you refer to islam or the prophet. Now when you say prophet muhammed(pbuh) made ppl into slaves, look at the alternative. First of all in the US, slaves were forced to work in terrible conditions with no respect and a beating when the corn had too much salt, whereas the Prophet made sure these "slaves" were properly fed, housed, and conditioned with their family and gave them days off very often and this was at a time when currency was not as big a deal as it is now. Now you ask for any records of the prophet freeing slaves. You want to know where they are? theyre in the same place where the records of the Prophet Jesus(pbuh) records of healing people are. There is no record but the Quran and Bible and we take it as true because these are our beliefs. As for Iran and the nuclear dilemma you speak of. If you are a man(or woman) and you feel yourself under threat because of any beliefs or ideas you have and you began to work out so your arms get a little stronger and you can defend yourself against any possible threats would you stop because a group of the very same people who condemn you because of your beliefs ask you to? No you wouldnt and thats for sure unless your a coward and have nothing to live for. As for the chopping of peoples hands, that was a punishment used in the days of the prophet put into effect only when someone was caught stealing. These days it is not used. For those of you who are disturbed by the idea maybe we should consider the romans, who dragged men into arenas to be devoured by starved lions. I dont know about you, but I personally consider getting my hand chopped for doing something wrong a much better alternative to being scarfed down by a hungry lion for the entertainment of higher status people. Islam is a religion that preaches peace and forgiveness, BUT Islam does not teach us to turn the other cheek. It is stated in the quran that forgiveness and allowing Allah to punish the wrongdoer on the afterlife is better, but to defend yourself or avenge your brother who was scarfed down by a wolf for a mans entertainment is not wrong.

-Badori