A question to All New Age believers

[Butch]

I must first say to all New Age followers that I understand the attraction of this way. To become more spiritual in the hope of advancing yourself, attaining higher consciousness, and promoting peace and love are all commendable aspects of the New Age religion.

I used to be a New Ager so I speak from experience. The higher awareness that we all seek is desirable because it will reveal the Truth about the way things are. To journey within to find the truth, or to say the truth is within you, implies that you do not create your own truth. If you create your own truth why do you have to look anywhere for it?

Basically I moved on from the New Age when I realised that there is in fact an Ultimate Truth that does not depend on individual human opinion or experience. I can demonstrate this with the following situation -

Andy believes he evolved from monkeys and that God is non-existent, while Bob believes he was created as a seperate species by God. Now if we all create our own truth both Andy and Bob are correct. Do you think that because Andy believes he evolved from monkeys he did actually evolve from monkeys, and that because Bob believes he was created by God that he actually was created by God? Or do you think that they both exist due to the same truth, whether it be creation or evolution (or something entirely different)? Andy's beliefs will seem true to him, and Bob's beliefs will seem true to him, but just because a belief seems true to you does not mean it is actually True.

Hopefully you will agree that actual human origin is independent from mere human opinion/belief about our origins. This agreement is your first step towards the path of Ultimate Truth, the only path along which there are real gains for you effort. A higher awareness will not set you free or enlighten you, only the Ultimate Truth can set you free.

Ask yourself - "Do I really create my own truth, or does an Ultimate Truth exist that is True regardless of whether I believe it or not?".

Thanks for your time. Friendly discussion is welcomed.

Much love for all. Much love for the Truth.

[nitemarehippygirl]

heyyyy.....:confused: i just replied to this in the new age forum! dagnabit.

[Burbot]

humans did not evolve from monkeys as so many people claim...it is a common ancestor...geez :rolleyes:


sorry, i don't like it when people get evolution wrong

[Butch]

humans did not evolve from monkeys as so many people claim...it is a common ancestor...geez :rolleyes:


sorry, i don't like it when people get evolution wrong
Either way the point is still the same, but thanks for your correction.

[Soulless||Chaos]

I must first say to all New Age followers that I understand the attraction of this way. To become more spiritual in the hope of advancing yourself, attaining higher consciousness, and promoting peace and love are all commendable aspects of the New Age religion.

I used to be a New Ager so I speak from experience. The higher awareness that we all seek is desirable because it will reveal the Truth about the way things are. To journey within to find the truth, or to say the truth is within you, implies that you do not create your own truth. If you create your own truth why do you have to look anywhere for it?

Basically I moved on from the New Age when I realised that there is in fact an Ultimate Truth that does not depend on individual human opinion or experience. I can demonstrate this with the following situation -

Andy believes he evolved from monkeys and that God is non-existent, while Bob believes he was created as a seperate species by God. Now if we all create our own truth both Andy and Bob are correct. Do you think that because Andy believes he evolved from monkeys he did actually evolve from monkeys, and that because Bob believes he was created by God that he actually was created by God? Or do you think that they both exist due to the same truth, whether it be creation or evolution (or something entirely different)? Andy's beliefs will seem true to him, and Bob's beliefs will seem true to him, but just because a belief seems true to you does not mean it is actually True.

Hopefully you will agree that actual human origin is independent from mere human opinion/belief about our origins. This agreement is your first step towards the path of Ultimate Truth, the only path along which there are real gains for you effort. A higher awareness will not set you free or enlighten you, only the Ultimate Truth can set you free.

Ask yourself - "Do I really create my own truth, or does an Ultimate Truth exist that is True regardless of whether I believe it or not?".

Thanks for your time. Friendly discussion is welcomed.

Much love for all. Much love for the Truth.
As far as your litle scenario, sure they are both right, there is the possibility either way, and possibility is all. :D There is no ultimate truth. :D

[nitemarehippygirl]

There is no ultimate truth. :Dhow do you know?



edit: your profile says you're agnostic. ?

[nitemarehippygirl]

not only how do you know, but do you mean to say that there is no explanation to: where you came from, what good & evil is and where they come from, what time is, what this experience you're experiencing now is...... et cetera?
to me, saying "there is no explanation" is absurd.

[Butch]

As far as your litle scenario, sure they are both right, there is the possibility either way, and possibility is all. :D There is no ultimate truth. :D
It makes absolutely no sense though. The loss of the belief in ultimate truth is so sad. Ultimate Truth has not gone anywhere, its just human belief in it that has disappeared. Do you truly believe that there is no truth? I can't understand how. Does submersion in water make you wet?

[nitemarehippygirl]

It makes absolutely no sense though. The loss of the belief in ultimate truth is so sad. Ultimate Truth has not gone anywhere, its just human belief in it that has disappeared. Do you truly believe that there is no truth? I can't understand how. Does submersion in water make you wet?perhaps he means there is no way for us to come to knowledge of ultimate truth. i cannot comprehend that there is no ultimate truth - and i don't mean god or any mysterious hocus-pocus Ultimate Truth crap; i mean, simply the answer to all these questions like, what am i? where did i come from? etc. i may not ever know the answer, but that doesn't mean the answer is not.
:)

[Burn]

Maybe the answer lies within the questioner.

Maybe the answer cannot be expressed in word or thought.

[Butch]

Maybe the answer lies within the questioner.

Maybe the answer cannot be expressed in word or thought.
The only thing that I have ever been able to find within is a state of deep peace and feeling of connectedness with all that is. While this is a amazing state to be in it is not truth or an answer; it is more of a state that removes the questions about life. Once that state is achieved what is left to do but go on living in that state? Are no truthful answers required?

[Burn]

The only thing that I have ever been able to find within is a state of deep peace and feeling of connectedness with all that is. While this is a amazing state to be in it is not truth or an answer; it is more of a state that removes the questions about life. Once that state is achieved what is left to do but go on living in that state? Are no truthful answers required?Can you remain with it? Live it anew each moment, beyond time?
Perhaps the answer does not lie in words, which are thoughts.
Can thought, which is partial, state Truth, which is total, infinite, the objectivity?

Maybe the direct perception of 'what is' . . .
Is this not possible?

Let the mind be still and listen to the silence of the universe,
And then explore the silence as something alive, dynamic and full of teachings that words can only begin to describe.
When the mind is listening - this is what I mean by that silence.

To flow in the river of infinity, with no beginning or end . . . Oh, so we do, but oh, do we know? Do we see?
Each a ripple of eternity . . .
Can we awaken? Do we dream?

[TrippinBTM]

Well, for a pantheist like me, evolving and being created by God are the same thing ;)

But I see your point and I agree, truth, or reality, are independant of our beliefs and ideas. "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything" ~Nietzsche.

Yet, truth is also subjective, where each person's belief shapes their reality and is real to them. Thus we can't just throw our ideas out but have to examine them. Beliefs are like telescopes, they magnify and order what we're looking at, but limit our perspective to mere tunnel vision.

I think the important thing to always keep in mind is how little we know, or can know. We all have a very limited prespective.

[Burn]

Well, for a pantheist like me, evolving and being created by God are the same thing ;)

But I see your point and I agree, truth, or reality, are independant of our beliefs and ideas. "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything" ~Nietzsche.

Yet, truth is also subjective, where each person's belief shapes their reality and is real to them. Thus we can't just throw our ideas out but have to examine them. Beliefs are like telescopes, they magnify and order what we're looking at, but limit our perspective to mere tunnel vision.

I think the important thing to always keep in mind is how little we know, or can know. We all have a very limited prespective.
Well said Trippin.

[NikkiLou6387]

humans did not evolve from monkeys as so many people claim...it is a common ancestor...geez :rolleyes:


sorry, i don't like it when people get evolution wrong
burby, you seem to know what you're talking about. i thought that common ancestor was an ape, not a monkey.

[Soulless||Chaos]

how do you know?



edit: your profile says you're agnostic. ?
Err well, it was the best choice. :p I believe simply in possibility. :D

[Sera Michele]

I believe in ultimate truth. I just don't think we have found it all yet. And in the meantime I don't like to think I pretend to know.

I also think that religious beliefs can get in the way of ultimate truth, because the only way I think we are going to find that truth is through the scientific process, studying the natural evidence around us. It seems to be the most objective process. Religious myths of creation and gods get's in the way of that because so many people fight scientific evidence that they feel is contrary to their religious beliefs. If our largest religions were more accepting of science I think we would all be on the right road to discovering some ultimate truths.

I'm not a new ager, though, so I guess this thread isn't really for me!

[BlackBillBlake]

What is truth? (Pilate)


Myself, I would say there is an objective reality. But I also think that up to a point, we do make our own reality - or at least, our perception of reality is conditioned by our intellectual ideas and constructions.
Perhaps 'truth' is something like a blank cinema screen, and we project all our own stuff onto it. One can change, and begin to project different stuff, but does that mean one is any closer to essential truth?

It seeems no kind of formulation of truth in intellectual/linguistic terms can ever approximate that reality, or adequately describe it. It can only be known directly.
I don't think there can ever be a kind of final or absolute statement of ultimate truth. Smaller truths which apply in limited areas can be thus formulated - but not essential or complete truth.

[Sera Michele]

Yeah. I guess I look at "ultimate truths" as scientific facts. We can say it is an ultimate truth that the earth revolves around the sun, for example. As far as defining everything into an ultimate truth, well I think you hit the nail on the head with your statement, BBB.

[Burbot]

burby, you seem to know what you're talking about. i thought that common ancestor was an ape, not a monkey.
1. Did we evolve from monkeys?
Humans did not evolve from monkeys. Humans are more closely related to modern apes than to monkeys, but we didn't evolve from apes, either. Humans share a common ancestor with modern African apes, like gorillas and chimpanzees. Scientists believe this common ancestor existed
5 to 8 million years ago. Shortly thereafter, the species diverged into two separate lineages. One of these lineages ultimately evolved into gorillas and chimps, and the other evolved into early human ancestors called hominids.

taken from: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/faq/cat02.html

[TrippinBTM]

I also think that religious beliefs can get in the way of ultimate truth, because the only way I think we are going to find that truth is through the scientific process, studying the natural evidence around us. It seems to be the most objective process.
I agree to a point. But since science (like all knowledge) is relative, it will never give us the absolute. So it's only useful up to a point. Also, what's so great about objective reality, if our entire understanding is subjective? Objective reality is totally foreign to us. I believe that this ultimate truth (call it objective reality if you will) must be understood subjectively. Which means subjectivity comes first.

[BlackBillBlake]

what's so great about objective reality, if our entire understanding is subjective? Objective reality is totally foreign to us. I believe that this ultimate truth (call it objective reality if you will) must be understood subjectively. Which means subjectivity comes first.
The question is : is there anything outside of our subjectivity?

[Sera Michele]

We're getting deep into philosophy now...it's dark, murky waters down below...

[BlackBillBlake]

Lol. Yes, I guess you're right.


Myself I think there is an objective reality 'out there'. But as I said before, I don't think it's defineable.
Perhaps what the Zen masters say about 'seeing directly into the nature of things' is applicable here..

[Burn]

Lol. Yes, I guess you're right.


Myself I think there is an objective reality 'out there'. But as I said before, I don't think it's defineable.
Perhaps what the Zen masters say about 'seeing directly into the nature of things' is applicable here..It is out there, and it is right here.

The most difficult part, at least in our eyes, is seeing it directly, and not smothered, weighed and divided by thoughts and reasoning.

Not to say thought is bad, or thought is good. It simply is a piece of the whole. Like reflection on the water's surface. It's real, but beneath is the infinite flow, unseparated and moving in harmony. Even if that harmony goes beyond what we would wish it to be.

To the ocean, all is movement.

[Bhaskar]

First of all, burn, beautiful beautiful posts. Thank you.

Absolute truth and science...

Those familiar with Heisenburg's uncertainty theory will know that science only goes so far. It cannot penetrate beyond a certain point. It cannot tell you the position and the velocity of an electron at once, since the mere act of observation changes the observed.

How can we say that earth revolving around the sun is absolute truth? There was time when the sun and earth did not exist. So was there no ultimate truth then?

[Bhaskar]

By using the adjective ultimate, we have already progressed consierably in this analysis. Ultimate implies many things.

It means that it is eternal or beyond time, since there was nor will be a time when it did not exist.

Being eternal, it is changeless, since change only occurs within the constraints of time.

Also by saying that it is ultimate, we imply that it is all-pervading. There is no place in space that it does not exist. Indeed space exists within this truth. In other words, it is infinite.

Being infinite, it follows that it is indivisible, for there is no place or time where it does not exist. If you were to remove something from this infinity, where would you take it to be away from the truth, which is everywhere?

What in the universe fits all these conditions? It is tempting to say it is energy, but that is not correct. Energy is changeable, it is governed by time. It can be converted to mass, E=mc2.

What is it that is present in everything, indivisible, eternal, unchanging, infinite?

As an analogy, let us consider electricity. Electricity is everywhere in all matter. It is nothing but the movement of electrons, which are present in all matter. It can express through some forms of matter, they are called conductors. It cannot express through other forms of matter, they are called insulators. There are others through which electricity is expressed only under certain conditions or in certain set ways - semiconductors, pyro-electrics, piezo-electrics, etc. Independent of the its ability to express itself through an object, eletricity exists within all matter.

In the same way, existing within everything, all the universes and beyond, is consciousness. In animals, like in the conductors, consciousness can express to a great extent (varying from animal to anuimal, of course). In inert objects it cannot express at all, while in plants, it expresses to a limited degree.

Consciousnesss however, is the same in all. It cannot be divided. When someone is said to be semi-conscious, it is not that consciousness is divided, but that his ability to express that consciousness is reduced. It is indivisible.

Being indivisible we cannot make a distinction between my consciousness and yours. The thoughts are different, the feelings and ideas are different, but consciousness is independent of these things. It is the light that illumines thoughts, not the thoughts themselves. That light is the same in all of us. Thus it is all-pervading.

It cannot be altered or changed. When we speak of a higher level of consciousness, it is also only on the level of thought and our own heightened ability to express the consciousness in us. It is like removing the lampshade, the room gets brighter, although the light given by the bulb is still the same. It is like heating a conductor, at higher temperature, the resistance decreases and more electricity flows, but electricity itself is the same. Thoughts may change, equipment may change, but the consciousness, the electricity that drives it, remains the same.

As a result of its unchanging nature, it can be said to be beyond time or eternal. Consciousness existed even before life itself, but didnt have a means of expression, just as electricity existed before the toaster.

It is infinite. Consciousness never reduces or increases. The moe one can express it, the more it is manifest. However, there is no limit to it. The amound of current passing through an equipment is never limited by current, it is only limited by the ability of the wires to carry current.

Thus, we can safely conclude that ultimate truth is consciousness itself. Being all pervading and eternal, it is existence itself, for it is what gives life and sentience to all things, it is the cause of all existence. If there were no consciousness, where would the concept of existence be?

The most important feature of this ultimate truth, however, is this. It is our own self. How?

We currently identify ourselves with many things. Our body, our mind, our country, our race, our religion, our community, etc. But as we take away each of these, we find that our own self, our identity, our innate I-ness, never goes away. I may convert my religion, live in a different land with different people, but I am still me. I may change my skin color, but I am still me. I may change my mind and opinions, but I am still me. My body is always changing, from childhood to death, but I am the same. The I-ness remains intact. What is that I? Who am I? Remove all labels, all temporary, fleeting identification. All that remains is consciousness. Therefore that infinite, all pervading, eternal, changeless truth, consciousness, is my own self.

When we experience this truth, for it is not a truth of words and books, but of being, then we become one with consciousness, a perfect conductor. We become capable of expressing it in its infinite glory, for we are one with it, with all the universe.

Finally, most importantly, this ultimate truth is happiness itself. It is bliss. For in the knowledge of indivisible oneness, there is nothing external to desire, to have or to lose, there is fullness, completeness, wholeness, pure peace, which brings with it joy, in infinite measure. That joy, that knowledge, that consciousness, that is the Ultimate Truth.

[BlackBillBlake]

How can we say that earth revolving around the sun is absolute truth? There was time when the sun and earth did not exist. So was there no ultimate truth then?
The sun going round the earth is obviously only a partial truth about the universe. For as long as the current conditions last, it is pretty much absolute. There are many other examples - gravity etc.
The complete truth, ultimate truth - whatever label you give it is something on another level altogether.
Scintific truth is absolute within the parameters in which it operates.
But even then, there are difficulties. Take Newtons laws - they pertain here on earth - inside a black hole they don't apply. But for all practical purposes, they seem 'absolute'. Same with mathematical truth.

[Burn]

Scintific truth is absolute within the parameters in which it operates. But even then, there are difficulties. Take Newtons laws - they pertain here on earth - inside a black hole they don't apply. But for all practical purposes, they seem 'absolute'. Same with mathematical truth.Newtons laws are absolute in a relative perspective. Yes. Subjectively, it all makes sense, but you cannot rule out that science has let go of Newton's laws as anything more than relative to the reality we experience. Practical, but nevertheless subjective to the whole. Science does indeed ponder the same question, what is truth? What is the ultimate?

And it has made some strides since Newton, even Einstein. Now we realize Newton's laws cannot be applied to black holes. I am no scientist, but I'd take a guess that they are trying to understand black holes through, perhaps quantum physics.

The point I'm trying to make here is not that science is the answer, but that science too has been, throughout history, attempting to discover a universal truth that can unify all relative truths.

In author and physicist Briane Greene's The Fabric of the Cosmos, he describes the ultimate truth, the ultimate existence, the very essence of existence as the 'bread', in which we view from inside an infinite array of angles to perceive it. There are different ways to measure, understand, 'slice' the bread that are all equal, but none are total. Science is trying to understand the whole.

It's an excellent book, by the way. I recommend it for everyone.

I wonder, though, if scientists, one day, will put down the pen and simply let go of all of this thought and reasoning, not through rejection but through acceptance that infinity cannot be known, but only directly experienced. Quite an act, is it not? After such a long journey; there follows a silence of the mind.

[TrippinBTM]

The question is : is there anything outside of our subjectivity?
Irrelevant, because we'll never know for sure. We can ask others, confer amongst ourselves, but thats science, and will never take us all the way. So who cares? Just figuring out this subjective world is work enough, I say.

[ryupower]

I'm a Christian, but as a former New Ager, my answer back then would have been:
" I don't know if there's God, but a supernatural 'society' exists. And all of us come from monkeys, bimbo! I hate it when people say that they're more worth than animals, and that theyx think they're better..that they're mre than animals...THOSE STUPID CHRISTIANS! ARROGANT CHRISTIANS!!! I can't stand it that they think we're so wonderful, we're nothing more then something that came from evolution! Why is that so hard to admit? Why don't they get that???"


Yes, I was very nice. ;)

BTW, I judged them, now look what happened!! :D

[Burn]

I was writing things down in my notebook today. This was one of those things:

Objectivity = to the sum of all subjective realities.

There is an infinite number of subjective realities,

Therefore....

Objectivity = infinity

Thus....

The mind is fragmentary, unable to see anything past relative truths....

and THUS....

Objectivity can never be known.

So, I closed the book and wandered off to simply be.