Jesus Christ was a cult leader

[queenannie]

Jesus Christ would be an enemy of the church today (the institution, not the physical body holy temple). He would not be labeled a "Christian", he would be called a "wacko". He would be again be crucified in a modern fashion.

We have not come very far in the Way, heresy is no longer a policitally correct term, but the idea is still embraced with vigor by the self-righteous as applying to the truly righteous.

[weaselpop]

I wouldn't say he was a cult leader. I think that the time (if the man existed - he couldn't whether he was SOG or not) he was just telling people about his idea of the best way of life. It's other people who made it into a cult.

I have a t-shirt like your siggy. It was a birthday pressy.

[queenannie]

Yeah, I agree with you 100%. I just wanted to spark a lively debate, but oh well. I did get my wish on another forum, got a very interesting argument going about the roman church vs. the ways of Jesus.

I drew that hourglass on my computer. The neat part is, and you can't tell here, is that the glass part is transparent.

[queenannie]

There's no doubt they oppose each other. Spirit is the opposite of material. So you can be a earthbound spirit clinging to materialism, or you can be an aspiring spirit working toward releasing material ties upon your soul. The latter is a much harder route to take, but at least it pays off, in real dividends!

[Vae Victus]

lol. That's a noble assumption...

I really wish someone would tell these lousy ethiopian kids to quit being such damned whiney materialists. Food and shelter will not bring them happiness. When will they all learn?

[queenannie]

Now there is a fine line we tread between lofty spiritual aspirations and meeting the basic needs for survival.

Although those of us who have never wondered where our next meal was coming from would do well to experience a little temporary starvational hardship. It sure puts things in perspective, and if you're finicky, it puts an end to that, too! ;)

[thespeez]

I agree with queenannie.
If Jesus were to return, it would be just like before.
A small group of people who witnessed his miracles and followed him, and the government, which would be forced to kill him.
Spirituality and the world of economics & government just don't mix.
They even seem to oppose each other.I also couldn't agree more! The people who would shun Jesus' teachings the most (IMO) would be the majority of the people who identify themselves as 'christian,' particularly the 'religious' hierarchies, whom I prefer to call neo-pharisees!
http://www.religioustolerance.org (http://www.religioustolerance.org/)
http://freechristians.com/Site_Contents.htm
http://www.goodnewsinc.org (http://www.goodnewsinc.org/)
http://www.americanunitarian.org

[queenannie]

I no longer like to use the word "christian" because most of the ones who apply that label to themselves actually have no idea of what aspiring toward the spirit of Christ actually means and requires. It pretty much represents the opposite end of the spectrum, the way I see it.

religion----------------------atheism------------------------enlightenment

[cerridwen]

Um... interesting... quite an extreme view point don't you think? A little angry at the church are we?

[queenannie]

Um... interesting... quite an extreme view point don't you think? A little angry at the church are we?Actually, no, I'm not angry with anyone. I try my best not to get angry.

Anyway, it didn't come off the way I intended it to. I didn’t mean to be so extreme, just understandable, I guess. I can be pretty blunt.



To clarify, I don’t like to use that term anymore, about myself or others, because I’m not sure what that word might mean to each person that hears it, anymore. What it means to me, to emulate Jesus Christ, is much removed from what is demonstrated by the visible, mainstream ‘Christians’ who currently represent that word. I’m including from the community to the national level. There’s a lot of politics and commercialism in organized religion these days, and I’m not about that, and I’m certain that Jesus wasn’t about that, either. At all.



Remember the money changers?



What about the motive behind those who wanted his crucifixion?



How did politics and commercialism manifest in Jesus’ life and teachings?



That’s why I said what I did. I’ve got no hard feelings, just my own ideas about christians (who go to church each week) vs. Christ(-conscious corporal temples who live in their church)ians. I try to eliminate the confusion by not using the word christian at all.

[Random Andy]

Okay, I promise I'm not trying to stir anything up here, but on the other hand don't mind if I do... I think Jesus was schizophrenic. I don't believe in miracles I'm afraid but I do believe in magic - I don't think it's impossible - quantum physics has space for all kinds of magical things to go on, possibly even on a macro level, at the very least things like psychic communication, but that's beside the point. The only reason the church thinks jesus was not insane (and don't get me wrong, I know schizophrenia is merely a label because I suffer from it) is because they seem to think that insane people are somehow evil. Honestly! I've seen the video they show at the alpha course which is an introduction to anglican Christianity, and they think it's impossible for someone who is insane to say honest and true things about what's wrong with the world. The only problem insane people have (those that get caught anyway) is that they don't know when to hold their tongue and not say what they honestly think. Or that's my main problem anyway. eg... (and now for something completely different maybe evil in many of your opinions)

Does anyone else think the 9/11 attacks were justifiable. Not right necessarily but justifiable. Here is a country (Afghanistan) that suffers from starvation, and death due to a lack of clean water. Meanwhile, while our stockbrockers and multinationals continue to hold them to ransom our (the west) biggest growing problem is obesity :0/ While 30,000 people a day die from lack of basics in the third world, our media is still talking about a mere 6000 (I know it doesn't make it easier if you knew any of them and I'm sorry if you did) who died in a protest, a vicious protest but a protest at the lack of equality in the world. Now is (or rather then was) a time to react with sympathy and love (which, as any simpleton can tell you, breeds love), for these poor minnows who are dying but instead we go out and kill even more of them. Far more than they ever killed on 9/11. And that's just the military deaths. I can't say I like those terrorists ideas about individuals being collatoral damage in sight of a larger goal but if your friends and family, and you were dying as a result of ridiculous, overpowering greed, wouldn't you want to do something about it. And if diplomatic pleas didn't work (30,000 people a day remember) wouldn't you want to do something drastic to bring attention to it? Sorry but that's how I feel. Let's see if they lock me up for it...

[queenannie]

Okay, I promise I'm not trying to stir anything up here, but on the other hand don't mind if I do... I think Jesus was schizophrenic. I don't believe in miracles I'm afraid but I do believe in magic - I don't think it's impossible - quantum physics has space for all kinds of magical things to go on, possibly even on a macro level, at the very least things like psychic communication, but that's beside the point.
What is the point? What is your reason behind this theory? Jesus didn't smoke cigarettes, that's my argument against schizophrenia. Also, the environmental contributing factors were not present, not to mention the fact that his parents were considered sound stock for the production of a savior.

they think it's impossible for someone who is insane to say honest and true things about what's wrong with the world. The only problem insane people have (those that get caught anyway) is that they don't know when to hold their tongue and not say what they honestly think.
I don't know this, either, but no one has ever suggested I am insane, just 'brutally honest'.

Or that's my main problem anyway.
You're sure of this?

Does anyone else think the 9/11 attacks were justifiable. Not right necessarily but justifiable. Here is a country (Afghanistan) that suffers from starvation, and death due to a lack of clean water. Meanwhile, while our stockbrockers and multinationals continue to hold them to ransom our (the west) biggest growing problem is obesity
You might have the start of some sort of argument, if it was truly the Afghans who killed the victims of 9/11. As well, please realize, it is not the people in the middle east being held for ransom by the wealthy and elite of this country or the multinational elite. It is you and I, my friend! The enemy is much closer than you realize, and still you let him sleep with you!

I can't say I like those terrorists ideas about individuals being collatoral damage in sight of a larger goal but if your friends and family, and you were dying as a result of ridiculous, overpowering greed, wouldn't you want to do something about it.
We are all victims of ridiculous, overpowering greed! The terrorists salute old Glory! You must open your eyes!

Sorry but that's how I feel. Let's see if they lock me up for it...
Why would they lock you up? You're doing just as they want you to! You're at the forefront of the propoganda parade! Don't forget to march!

[LuciferSam]

Christianity became far removed from Jesus' original brand of Christianity long before even commercialism came about. It didn't even become popular until it was infused with Hellenistic/Platonic theory during the Roman era, and split into a myriad different variations ("mainstream," Gnostics...). Had Jesus hypothetically only returned a few centuries after the founding of his religion, he wouldn't have understood what happened.

[queenannie]

Christianity became far removed from Jesus' original brand of Christianity long before even commercialism came about. It didn't even become popular until it was infused with Hellenistic/Platonic theory during the Roman era, and split into a myriad different variations ("mainstream," Gnostics...). Had Jesus hypothetically only returned a few centuries after the founding of his religion, he wouldn't have understood what happened.
Yes!!!

The whole point of my initial statement! Of course, you knew that.

One thing I disagree with is the part about 'long before even commercialism' came about. That's true, in respect to the specific definition we associate with commercialism today. That term didn't come of age until after the television invaded life. But commercialism is a off-shoot or product of greed. And greed was definitely around at the time of Jesus, else he would have died of old age!

Greed is not just about material wealth. Greed is 'wanting more than you need', which makes it a term applicable in all material classifications, wealth, power, sex, you name it. If it's of a physical manifestation, it has inspired greed already in some speck of humanity.

But that's splitting hairs, I guess.

Funny thing about modern society. We call traditional botanical health remedies 'alternative' medicine. We call pure, unchanged, spiritual direction which came right from the source, 'new age' and unilaterally condemn anything not considered 'fundamental' or 'orthodox', which is what we have labelled our versions meant also as 'spiritual direction'. Man's versions are just that, his preferred redesign for the truth, which is barbarian and severe, but somehow more comfortable to accept than the light yoke of Jesus.

In general, we are fools! Maybe not every last person, but overall, a foolish nation, with the rest of the world running a close 2nd.

[SoFarAway]

I'm angry at the church too.

Athiest. It is what I am, and will always be.

My logic prevents me from believing in any kind of religion.

[queenannie]

I'm angry at the church too.
Who else is angry?

Athiest. It is what I am, and will always be.

My logic prevents me from believing in any kind of religion.
So does mine. 'Religion' is not 'G-d'. Religion is of the world, of man. Is that why you don't believe in a G-d? Because you don't believe in religion?

If that was the criteria, I would be an atheist, too. But a dislike for the dogma and doctrine of mortals contrived to be of 'G-d' doesn't have to lead you to atheism, rather you could begin a quest for the truth with logic and reason at the helm which leads to the realization of the truth of G-d inside each person. You've got an excellent head start without realizing it, since you put no stock in the fairytales of man.

It just depends on what your heart desires to do to solve a discrepancy.
Write it all off as rubbish? or rewrite it according to its original intention?

[LuciferSam]

I like to think that if the Jesus legend was hypothetically true, Jesus is too scared to come back because of all the evangelical fanatics out there. I'd be scared if I came back to life two millennia later to find a crowd of puritanical crazies going nuts over me.

[queenannie]

Jesus wasn’t scared of shit. And he wouldn’t be scared to land in this minute right here.

Hypothetically or possibly, regardless, Jesus is the Word that personifies love, wisdom, and faith.

Faith=fearlessness

all the evangelical fanatics out therebetter be afraid of Him, the way I see it.

a crowd of puritanical crazies going nuts over me.Sounds like the same crowd giving the bon voyage party known as the ‘crucifixion’.

[Random Andy]

What is the point? What is your reason behind this theory? Jesus didn't smoke cigarettes, that's my argument against schizophrenia. Also, the environmental contributing factors were not present,
Okay, who says cigarrettes cause schizophrenia? I've never heard of this theory and, like I said, I am schizophrenic. They tell me I mustn't smoke weed but cigarettes as far as I know are fine. Maybe that's a conspiracy by the tobacco multi-nationals. Me no know, but Jesus was obviously pretty upset with his environment, is that not true? Apart from the bollocks we have to go through to maintain an existence in everyday life what are the environmental factors that cause schizophrenia?

As for me and you being the worst off victims of multi-national greed... I thought I was the crazy one! They pay their taxes in our countries and this goes to support our countries. That's why our governments like them. That's the problem with national democracies, it's that they think (and I think they may be right when I consider your opinions) we don't care about the welfare of other countries. They are there to protect our interests alone, and we want to be rich.


The reason I think Jesus was schizophrenic was because I have been psychotic and in the lead up to it I truly believed I was in touch with a greater power. If I hadn't heard of anyone else going through the same kinda thing (and I considered both the story of Jesus and my vague knowledge of schizophrenics at the time) maybe I would have believed I was the son of god or somehow superior to all these wankers who go about their lives never thinking of anything more than how to get the next buck. It is a fact that, if ANYONE, even Jesus himself, came into the world at this juncture claiming to be the son of god, he would be reviled by christians, ignored by the public and possibly locked up by the psychiatric profession. How do you know that guy at Waco wasn't the reincarnation of Jesus? He had convinced quite a few people he was worth following and was then killed for it. Along with many of his followers.

[queenannie]

Check out this article:
http://www.rense.com/general54/lies.htm

[Random Andy]

That's an interesting article. Yes. I have had my suspicions that the American govt. was behind the 9/11 attacks but have bowed to the belief that they were foreign simply because that's what most peeps seem to believe. I'm a bit weak like that.
What I was trying to say though was simply that, even if these 3rd world countries are behind the attacks we don't have the right to attack them. Rather the duty to help them. That's kinda what being a christian is all about. And it's probably what being a muslim is all about as well but I've never read the Koran or spoken to many muslims (The few that I have spoken to think that Christians and Muslims worship the same God, just two names) so I don't know.
Why don't agnostics meet up every week and chat about stuff to reaffirm themselves and get together to change things. That would help. I was at a Christian group the other week and said I wanted to change the world and some bitch accused me of being Hitleresque. Fucked up whore. The vicar however is a very good Christian, it seems to me, in the original sense of the word, and also wants to change things, I think.
I gave him my 'thing', which is a little essay on how we could progress from capitalism and he will get back to me on what he thinks when he's read it. Hang on, I'm gonna go home and get it and put it on here for you to read. I'm interested on wether you will think it Christian, it's definately not christian (small c) but has been called communist and neo-liberal, neither of which are great terms but I can see where those people are coming from. Hold tight...

[Random Andy]

Okay... This job you're doing... would u do it 4 free?
Okay. Imagine everything you wanted was free. What about now?
Then, you've gotta think... would this job be necessary in a money-free society?

The internet is great and it will change the world... far more profoundly than it has so far. Basically, you have a questionnaire (only once, but it's updatable) and on it you put in, first of all, your post-code (i.e. zip code for u USians out there), narrowing down your location to a street. Then u put in everthing you have on offer and everything you want, from a cuppa tea and a chat to guitar lessons. This part is about skills exchange and doesn't offer benefits over capitalism except for tax-evasion and advertising but later who knows - could goods be exchanged in this manner? Imagine this...

Imagine factory owners and farmers and truck drivers took up the questionnaire. The skills on offer are limited but they've got the capital. Food is plentiful, each farmer on a modern commu7nal farm produces enough food for how many thousands of people? And the farmer, in exchange, wants virtually nothing to such an extent that you get the perverse situation where food is burnt to keep prices high or farmers are paid to keep there lands bare. Farmers are so efficient that it costs more to haul what they produce than it does to buy it so food (under our govts.) has to be wasted. In a country that pays it's farmers to keep their lands free of crops it's not a fallacy to say that food is cheaper than air... you just don't have to distribute air. Most farmers would prefer to see their food eaten rather than dumped on grain mountains or otherwise wasted and all they want is everything they need.... They want a tv - a tv worker somewhere wants some food; they want some clothes - a clothing designer somewhere wants some food, etc. Everyone wants food so all the farmer has to do is grow it and put on his questionnaire how much he has and what he wants, then the lorry driver (who can also teach you to drive a lorry if you bring him a little something) has to drop off what he's got and pick up the food.
The lorry driver then has the power to take the food wherever he wants. If he holds onto more than he and his family can eat it will spoil so why would he? Instead, he looks on his questionnaire database, which has been converted to a colour coded map of areas that want or have particular goods. He then takes the food to an area that needs food but has other goods - clothes, stereo equipment, whatever and swaps his food for some of that - looking up his next destination on the database map and picking up accordingly. His food has been deposited at the local depot (as frequent as, say a supermarket) but it hasnt cost then more than what the driver has picked up which is something that they produce or are rich in. He then takes this to the next depot, factory or farm and the whole thing continues.
this would happen on a huge scale (huge amounts of the excess food would go to the airports for the third world to eat). And a tiny scale (kids delivering the papers to their street in exchange for toys and lessons). it's simple and it's easy and it should work, it eliminates the need for stockbrokers, accountants, bailiffs. Eventually the majority of the government could be done away with, thereby massively reducing the cost of living for everyone. what the government fails to understand is that, although simple keynesian economics tells us that producing work is good for the economy, it doesnt tell us that which common sense tells us ie, unless that work achieved something we were better off as a whole without it.

[queenannie]

I'm glad you have an open mind. People either already know about all the deception or blindly refuse to entertain any thought of misdeeds by the suits in charge.

But the best way to get wrecked is to assume it cannot happen.

I think 'hitleresque' a bit harsh on the part of the bitch, 'idealist' would be more suitable, as well as informed and polite. People that make remarks such as that are way more lost than they'd like to think the object of their ridicule is, anyway. To those types I say 'poof'. That's the best way to love your neighbor sometimes, from afar.

I haven't had a chance to read your essay, but I will just in a little bit. But you have to read one of mine!

The things you say tells me that you have a lot going on in your head that is good, and full of potential for your own benefit.

I'm sending you a pm, after I post this message. Then I'm reading your essay.

[roly]

I agree with queenannie.
If Jesus were to return, it would be just like before.
A small group of people who witnessed his miracles and followed him, and the government, which would be forced to kill him.
Spirituality and the world of economics & government just don't mix.
They even seem to oppose each other.


i kno alot of people who would disagree.....a lot of people who would follow....kill God? thats just silly....

[TrippinBTM]

First, I heard that nicotine in tobacco goods can help treat schizophrenia in a small way, which is why many schizophrenics smoke. And though I don't know why this was said, Jesus didn't smoke cigs because it's a New World plant, not present in Eurasia till after 1492 or shortly thereafter.

Now, on to the main topic. I agree with much of what has been said, especially by queenannie. Of course Jesus would be an enemy of the modern Church and State systems, his message is inherently opposite the goals of these things. Both are institutions, intent on maintaining themselves, but Jesus taught letting go of such worldly things (governmental or religious laws and practices) and realizing you don't need that stuff to find enlightenment (beyond, of course, basic necessities, ie food...man may not live by bread ALONE, but he still needs the bread). Happiness won't come from being totally secure through gov't actions, nor through religious teachings of laws and moral codes. Nor will it matter if you live in a totally chaotic, anarchy-style world, with no religion or government. Such things are transitory. Jesus taught the inner way to happiness (ie, enlightenment, ie god).

By the way, Jesus wasn't starting a new religion. He was a Jew through and through. It was later people, especially Paul, who turned the early church into a new religion by including Gentiles, and scrapping the Mosaic Law.

[rudenski]

Love Cult... where do I sign up?

[HADLEYCHICK]

First, if Jesus were to return he could set up shop in a medium sized college town in the bible belt or a South American country. If he could relocate somehow or maybe be in both places at once he would have it made. Then he should convert the HR manager of a local factory, increase sales through divine manipulation (loaves and fishes) and hire all new converts, paying them from steadily increasing bankrolls.



Or he should appear to Madonna and convince her to give HIM all her money instead of the Kaballah center. She could convert Demi Moore, and Roseanne and he would have it made. Sooner or later he would make people magazine, appear on Oprah, takeover the government of the forementioned South American country. If L Ron could do it so can he.



Sometimes the world of goverment and spirituality do work together. Take India, they have been able to curb internal fighting between religious parties and create a working government that thrives on an intense spiritual culture.



Or in the USA the good old town of Antelope I mean Ranjeesh. The Ranjeeshis managed to throw an election in their favor and even renamed the town. Until they started murdering each other that was a triumph of godly proportions.



Many Anabaptists sects and Native American tribals have effectively seceeded from this country and successfully govern themselves. It can be done. If he ever comes back don't worry, just watch Oprah.





I agree with queenannie.
If Jesus were to return, it would be just like before.
A small group of people who witnessed his miracles and followed him, and the government, which would be forced to kill him.
Spirituality and the world of economics & government just don't mix.
They even seem to oppose each other.

[seahorse]

being in a cult will eventually hurt you somehow.

Being with Jesus sets you free.